杰弗里·爱泼斯坦权力背后的基础设施

我想起当年我在印度担任《纽约时报》记者时，北印度农村经常出现所谓的‘荣誉杀人’问题。

I think about when I was in India as a reporter for the Times, and you would have, you know, a problem of so called honor killings in rural villages in North India.

对吧？

Right?

一个年轻女性如果敢在婚前谈恋爱或有某种暧昧关系，她的父亲、家人甚至村里的人可能会杀了她。

A young woman dares to have a boyfriend or some kind of dalliance before marriage, and her own father might kill her, or men in her family might kill her, or people in her village might kill her.

这种事情经常发生。

It happens a lot.

如果统计每一个这样的案例，通常只有一个男人实施了谋杀。

If you take every instance where that happens, there's often, like, one guy who committed murder.

就一个人。

So one guy.

但我认为这很愚蠢，任何观察这件事的人都会说，要让这个人实施谋杀，需要很多其他条件共同作用。

But I think it would be foolish, and I think anybody looking at it would say, it took a lot of other things going on to make it possible for that guy to commit the murder.

还有许多没有实施谋杀、永远不会谋杀、不认同谋杀、甚至反对谋杀的人。

And a lot of other people who didn't commit murder, who would never commit murder, who are not okay with murder, who maybe oppose the murder.

但有很多人、系统、机构和价值观共同促成了这种谋杀的发生。

But a lot of people and systems and institutions and values are conspiring to make that murder possible.

所以，如果回到这个例子，我认为，如果杰弗里·爱泼斯坦只是单纯一个想诱骗15岁女孩并强奸她们的恋童癖，仅此而已，那他很可能很难得逞。

And so if you shift back to this example, I think if you just had a pedophile in Jeffrey Epstein who wanted to procure 15 year old girls and rape them, and that was all you had, I think it would have been very hard.

我认为对他来说，这会非常困难。

I think it would have been very difficult for him.

这并不是一件容易做到的事。

This is not an easy thing to pull off.

所以，这不仅仅是凯西·鲁姆勒，她 presumably 与这个故事的核心毫无关系。

And so it's not just a Kathy Rumler who presumably had nothing to do with that burning heart of the story.

关键是，就在我们说话的今天，凯西·鲁姆勒仍然是高盛的首席律师。

It's the fact that today, Kathy Rumler, as you and I speak, is still the chief lawyer at Goldman Sachs.

关键是，这种关联在高盛这家机构中，并不会因为某个个体而被遗忘。

It's the fact that that association is not something that institutionally Goldman Sachs forget one individual.

高盛今天并不认为这种关联有什么问题。

Goldman Sachs does not think today it's a problematic association.

不仅仅是哈佛或麻省理工的某位教授牵涉其中，而是这两所世界最负盛名的学府，竟然让这个人能够自由穿梭于它们的网络之中，并成为核心人物。

The fact that not just some professor at Harvard or some professor at MIT was involved, but that those institutions, two of our the world's most august learning institutions, essentially had this guy able to swim through their networks and be central to them.

我记得曾听麻省理工媒体实验室的女性提到，她们被迫为杰弗里·爱泼斯坦带领参观媒体实验室。

I remember talking to women at the MIT Media Lab who were forced to give tours to Jeffrey Epstein at the Media Lab.

这些律师事务所在向唐纳德·特朗普屈服之前，同样被操纵了——不仅仅是某些个人，而是整个组织都未能对自家律师与如此堕落之人过于亲近这一事实做出应有的反应，即使有那么多迹象表明他是个问题人物，甚至蒂娜·布朗都已足够了解，称他为恋童癖。

It's these law firms that before they were capitulating to Donald Trump were able again to be gamed by, again, not just individuals, but entire organizations that were, let's put it this way, not able to have a appropriate kind of histamine reaction to one of their lawyers being too close to such a depraved person even when there was so many reasons to know he was a problem, even when Tina Brown knew enough to call him a pedophile.

甚至当唐纳德·特朗普向《纽约杂志》提供评论，说杰弗里·爱泼斯坦喜欢他时

Even when Donald Trump was giving quotes to New York Magazine saying, Jeffrey Epstein likes him on

在更年轻的一边。

the younger side.

正如你所说，真正参与最恶劣罪行的人，数量其实非常少。

It was, as you say, a quite small number of people who presumably were involved in the worst crimes.

知道这些事却选择视而不见的人，则要多一些。

It was a larger number who maybe knew about them and looked the other way.

而更多的人，或许只是参加过那些发生过事情的派对。

Was a larger number still who maybe were just at parties where things happen.

但最终，你谈论的是这个国家几乎所有或许多最负盛名的机构——大学、企业、律师事务所，以及后续的各种会议。

But eventually, you're talking about all or many of the most prestigious institutions in this country universities, corporations, law firms, conferences down the line.

我正在开启跨平台对战。

I'm opening up cross play.

我一直在和我在《纽约时报》的同事丹对战。

I've been playing against Dan, my colleague at the New York Times.

我要在三倍单词分区域下出单词‘stoop’。

I'm gonna play stoop, s t u p e, across the triple word multiplier square.

卡特下了另一手。

Kat's played another move.

呃。

Ugh.

她确实有个'S'字母。

And she did have an s.

她用‘stoop’得了36分。

She played stoop for 36 points.

我有一个Z，值10分。

I've got a z, which is 10 points.

如果我把X放那儿，就能组成box这个词。

If I can put my x over there, I can make box.

我有两个A、N和T。

I have two a's, n's, and t's.

我猜Tenga不是一个词。

I'm guessing Tenga is not a word.

让我看看。

Let's see.

Tenga是一个词。

Tenga is a word.

哦。

Oh.

我不知道Tenga是什么意思，所以我按了这个词，结果定义弹出来了。

Don't know what Tenga means, so I'm gonna press down on the word and oh, definition popped up.

塔吉克斯坦的旧货币单位。

Former monetary unit of Tajikistan.

每次玩这个游戏我都能学到新东西。

Learn something every time I play this game.

尽管我领先了大约50分，但在跨平台对战中我学到的一点是，游戏永远不到最后一刻都不会结束。

Even though I'm about 50 points ahead, one thing I've learned in cross play is that the game is never over.

我刚收到通知，丹完成了他的最后一轮。

I just got a notification and Dan played his last turn.

让我们看看谁赢了。

Let's see who won.

比分太接近了，但我确实赢了。

It's so close, but I did win.

跨平台对战，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。

Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times games.

今天免费下载吧。

Download it for free today.

当你看到一场本可以赢的游戏时，那感觉真是毁灭性的。

It's devastating when you see a game that you could have won.

我确实认为，当你谈论这些同心圆和所有这些不同的机构时，每个机构所知道的程度是不同的。

I do think as you talk about these concentric circles and all these different institutions, how much each one of them knew is different.

然而，它们如何被相互利用，形成一个庞大的合法性网络，这一切都是相互关联的。

The way they were all leveraged against each other into one mass network of legitimacy, though, is all connected.

所以拉里·萨默斯曾谈到他认识爱泼斯坦的方式，他们显然发展出了非常亲密友好的关系。

So Larry Summers has talked about the way he got to know Epstein, and they clearly developed a very intimate and friendly relationship.

但他说，我曾是哈佛大学的校长，有人告诉我——我这里是在转述他的话——你知道吗，如果你不和这个人谈，你要知道，我的工作就是筹款。

But he said, I was president of Harvard, and people told me, and I'm paraphrasing him here, you know, if you don't talk to this guy, you know, my job is fundraising.

就像，如果你不和这个人谈，你就是疯了。

Like, if you don't talk to this guy, you're crazy.

这就是为什么在我们继续讨论之前，我想让大家看清这个故事核心的金钱问题。

And this is why I do wanna keep sight of, before we move on from it, the money at the heart of the story.

但他最初的钱是从哪里来的呢？

But where is his money from initially?

到这里，你就进入了相当奇怪的领域。

And here you get into pretty weird territory.

所以给我讲讲埃普斯坦和莱斯·韦克斯纳吧。

So tell me a bit about Epstein and Les Wexner.

我的意思是，这是一个非凡的故事，《纽约时报》对此进行了非凡的报道。

I mean, it's a remarkable story, and and the Times has done extraordinary reporting on this.

让我们从头开始。

Let's start at the beginning.

杰弗里·埃普斯坦来自纽约康尼岛，他成长过程中怀有强烈的愿望：想要有钱，跻身精英阶层。

He is Jeffrey Epstein is from Coney Island, New York, comes of age with a burning desire to have money, to be in the elite.

顺便说一句，我觉得这件事非常有趣。

By the way, I think this is such an interesting thing.

这并不是在阿拉巴马州想方设法去纽约那种情况。

This this is not being in Alabama and wanting to make it New York.

这是来自外区的那种情况。

This is this outer borough thing.

我认为，这种住在紧邻曼哈顿的外区、渴望进入曼哈顿精英圈的情感，已经成为我们这个时代最具决定性的政治力量之一。

I think this emotion of the outer borough right near Manhattan desire to make it in Manhattan has become one of the defining political forces of our age.

唐纳德·特朗普。

Donald Trump.

唐纳德·特朗普。

Donald Trump.

他后来在曼哈顿上东区的一所精英私立学校——道尔顿学校——找到了一份教职。

And he gets a job teaching at Dalton, an elite private school in the Upper East Side Of Manhattan.

据多方报道，他是个特别受家长欢迎的老师，很多父亲似乎都愿意帮他。

And there's a sort of there's been a bunch of different reporting on how he he was the kind of guy who a lot of the the dads somehow seemed to want to help.

他是个很受欢迎的老师。

Like, he was a popular teacher.

你有没有考虑过在这儿工作？

And so, you know, have you thought about working in this?

我可以给你这里一份工作吗？

Can I give you a job here?

对吧？

Right?

而他不知怎么获得了在华尔街贝尔斯登公司面试的机会，并成功得到了这份工作。

And he gets somehow this opportunity to interview at Bear Stearns on Wall Street, gets this job at Bear Stearns.

在某个时候，贝尔斯登公司发现他谎称自己是大学毕业生，而这一点，我们又要谈到他那种对人性的精准把握。

At some point, Bear Stearns finds out that he's lied about his education being a college graduate, and he in this again, we're talking about his kind of grasp of of human acupressure points.

他巧妙地向这位上司陈述了情况，而这位上司自己也有种局外人的态度——‘我靠自己的努力走到今天，我不需要什么名校背景’，他有一种‘社会大学’的观念。

He sort of perfectly frames it to this boss who himself had a kind of attitude of being an outsider, and I'm you know, I I I I proved my way here, and I don't you know, had a a sense of, like, school of hard knocks.

他让对方相信，自己撒谎是因为知道如果说实话，就根本不会有机会，这种说法恰好触动了这位‘社会大学’出身的上司。

He convinces them that, you know, I'd lied because I knew I'd never get a chance if I told the truth of my biography, and this sort of, you know, resonates with this school of hard knocks boss.

而且他还，

And he's also, by

顺便说一句，正在和一位女儿约会，对吧？

the way, dating the daughter Right.

就在这一时刻，这位女儿是贝尔斯登公司关键人物之一的女儿。

Of one of the key figures at Berasturnes at this exact moment.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，人脉也在为他发挥作用。

So the connections are operating in his favor too.

而且你开始看到这种理解，我觉得这就像我曾经在印度当过驻外记者一样。

And and you're starting to see this understanding, which I think of him as, like, having once been a foreign correspondent myself in India.

我觉得埃普斯坦就像来自康尼岛的驻纽约外派记者一样行事。

I think of Epstein as, like, operating in New York like a foreign correspondent from Coney Island.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这真的非常重要，因为他正在社会性地、人类学地描绘纽约正在发生却从未被明说的事情。

And I think this is really, really important because he's map he's socially mapping, anthropologically mapping what is happening here in New York, but is not named out loud.

对吧？

Right?

比如纽约慈善晚宴是如何运作的。

Like, the way that charity galas function in New York.

我的意思是，如果你在纽约是富有的，而且是第八代富人，你根本不会去想它们究竟是什么。

I mean, if you're rich and, you know, eighth generation rich in New York, you don't think about what they are.

你只是去参加而已。

You just go to them.

但如果你是个局外人，你就会明白。

But if you're an outsider, you understand.

慈善晚宴实际上在做一件非常具体的事情。

The gala is doing a very specific thing.

表面上看，它似乎是在把钱捐给那些没钱的人或照顾弱势群体，但实际上，它是在巩固权力关系，让人们在社交市场上展示自己的‘股价’。

It, on the surface, is seeming to give back money to people who don't have it or take care of needy people, but what it's actually doing is cementing power relationships and allowing people to display their kind of share price in a social market.

所以他理解这些东西，因为他不属于这个圈子。

So he understands that stuff because he's not from it.

于是你看到他开始参加这些晚宴。

And so you see him start he's going to this gala.

他去参加那个晚宴。

He's going to that gala.

他正在举办这场派对。

He's hosting this party.

他邀请了这些人来，开始营造一种神秘感。

He's having these people over, and he starts to build this mystique.

然后他遇到了莱斯·韦克斯纳，后者创建了Limited服装公司及其他企业，他设法说服对方让他帮忙管理资金。

And then he meets Les Wexner, who built the limited clothing company and other companies, and becomes talks his way into kind of helping to manage money for him.

随着时间推移，他为对方管理的资金越来越多，而如今看来，这基本上是通过盗窃实现的。

And over the course of time, manages more and more money for him, and and it appears now basically with stealing.

我可以停一下吗？

Can I stop

请稍等一下？

you for one moment?

我们刚才一直在提及特朗普。

We've been bringing Trump in and out a little bit.

读了这篇《纽约时报》的文章——它也会放在节目笔记里，讲的是爱泼斯坦如何积累财富——这让我想到了特朗普的另一个相似之处。

And reading this Times piece, which again is gonna be in show notes about how Epstein built his money, he reminds me of Trump in another way.

你会觉得在商业领域，我们在这里谈了很多关于人际关系、如何长期维系它们、建立联系以及为他人提供价值。

You would think in business, and we're talking a lot here about relationships and what it takes to tend them over time and connections and being of use to people.

当我回看特朗普作为商人的背景时，让我惊讶的是，他有多少次坑害别人、经常不付钱，把合作伙伴变成敌人。

An amazing thing to me about Trump when you go back into his background of businessmen is how many people he stiffs, how often he just doesn't pay up, and turns partners into enemies.

如果你多次这样做并因此声名狼藉，总有一天你会被排斥。

And you think if you do that a bunch and you get a reputation for that, at some point, you're rejected.

对吧？

Right?

你找不到人愿意和你合作。

You can't find people to work with.

但对特朗普来说，情况却并非如此。

Somehow for Trump, that wasn't true.

对爱泼斯坦来说，情况也并非如此。

And for Epstein, that wasn't true.

因为我们即将谈到他对韦克斯纳所做的种种事情。

Because we're about to get into what he does both for and to Wexner.

但在此之前，他只是从一群人那里偷钱。

But before that, he just steals money from a bunch of people.

是的。

Yeah.

他把人拉进那些永远不会兑现的交易里。

He pulls people into deals that never pay out.

结果他被起诉，然后赢了官司，或者官司因为技术性问题被推翻，诸如此类。

He ends up getting sued and, you know, winning the lawsuits or the lawsuits don't have you know, they they get overturned on technicality, whatever it is.

但他四处奔走。

But he is running around.

我的意思是，他实际上最终被赶出了贝尔斯登。

I mean, he actually ends up pushed out of Bear Stearns.

在我看来，对于一个当时并没有多大权力的人来说，他正在积累一种可以说是致命的声誉。

He is amassing what would seem to me from the outside for somebody who does not have much power at that point to be a lethal reputation.

但不知何故，他就这样继续前行，从外部看我觉得这其实令人费解，因为你会认为在如此注重人际关系的情况下，这种事情应该会传开。

But somehow, he just kinda keeps moving in a way that I find actually perplexing from the outside because you would think when things are so relational that that would get around.

但他是个骗子，所到之处留下的是破碎的人们。

But he's a con man, and he is leaving people broken in his wake.

对吧？

Right?

他在欺骗他们。

He is lying to them.

他在策划骗局，拿走他们的钱。

He is running schemes, and he is taking their money.

然而，他却 somehow 能够不断上升，继续转向下一个目标，总是在自己的灾难来临之前抢先一步。

And yet he's somehow able to keep rising and moving on to the next one, and he's always one step ahead of his own catastrophe.

这有一种‘你抓得到我就抓’的感觉。

There's a very kinda catch me if you can aspect to it.

我认为《纽约时报》的报道出色地表明，这并不是一个在商业上赚了大钱、顺便做些见不得人勾当的人。

And I think what the Times reporting showed so masterfully is that this was not someone who made a bunch of money in business who also did some shady things.

不，诈骗才是他赚钱的方式。

Like, the scamming is how he made his money.

我认为，到目前为止，报道已经证实了这笔财富与诈骗和盗窃密不可分。

I think it's at this point, the reporting bears out the notion that the fortune was inseparable from the scamming and the stealing.

这并不是一个拥有卓越商业头脑的人。

This is not someone with, like, brilliant business acumen.

他成了韦克纳的——我的意思是，这在你的故事里跳了一段，但他成了韦克纳的财务经理。

He becomes Wexner's I mean, this is jumping ahead in your story, but he comes Wexner's money manager.

也许他只是把韦克纳的钱转到了自己的账户里。

Maybe he just moves Wexner's money into his own accounts.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是什么复杂的骗局。

It's not that complicated of a con.

他拥有权威的权力。

He has power of authority.

想想这类简单的想法。

Think of simple ideas like that.

这是我的问题。

That's my problem.

这是我的问题。

That's my problem.

你最好写本书，老兄。

You better write books, man.

是的。

Yeah.

我总是把事情搞得很难。

I always do things the hard way.

把事情搞得很难。

Do things the hard way.

不。

No.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

但我觉得这里最有趣的是，现在我们有更多时间去消化这个社会了。

But but I think what's so interesting here think think about something now we've had more time to metabolize the society.

想想哈维·韦恩斯坦。

Think about Harvey Weinstein.

嗯。

Mhmm.

说的都是同一个故事。

It's the same story.

到头来，如今是2026年，有多少人知道呢？

In the end, now today, 2026, how many people knew?

也许有成千上万人知道得足够多。

Maybe thousands knew enough.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你想想，哈维·韦恩斯坦竟能在民主党的最高层、好莱坞、金融界等各个领域畅通无阻。

And you think about this guy being able, Harvey Weinstein, to operate at the highest levels of the Democratic Party, obviously, Hollywood, finance everything.

对吧？

Right?

但成千上万的人一直保持

But thousands of people maintain

故事之所以成立，是因为韦恩斯坦令人厌恶，是罪犯和强奸犯，但他权力的核心是真实的。

story because Weinstein is loathsome and a criminal and a rapist, but the thing at the center of his power was real.

他确实制作了那些电影。

He really did produce those movies.

他确实创建了那家制片公司。

He really did make that studio.

至于爱泼斯坦，这从头到尾都是骗局。

With Epstein, it is a con all the way

这太惊人了。

through, which is amazing.

但我想说的是，我认为人类有一种能力，就是不愿意挺身而出

But what I'm saying is I think the human capacity to just to not wanna stick your neck out

是的。

Yeah.

不要成为派对上那个不合群的人，不要成为花园派对上扫兴的家伙，而是等着别人先开口。

To not be the person at the party not be the skunk at the garden party, to wait for someone else to say something.

我说的是一种更基本的人性弱点，而像这样的人对此了如指掌。

I'm talking about just a more basic human thing creates an immense vulnerability that people like this know about.

举个例子说明这一点。

Give an example of this.

我们提到了凯西·拉姆勒，对吧？她是奥巴马政府时期的前白宫首席法律顾问。

We've mentioned Kathy Rumler, right, the former White House chief counsel under Obama.

对吧？

Right?

所以你面对的是

So you're dealing with

就是给家里的观众们举个例子，是的。

Just somebody for the folks at home Yes.

是为代表美国总统职位的人服务的律师。

Is the lawyer for who represents the American presidency.

而且在美国没有这样的人。

And there is no human being in America.

这对特朗普总统手下的首席法律顾问来说可能不成立，但对于像奥巴马这样非常遵循规则的政府来说，肯定是这样的。

This probably maybe not true for chief counsel under president Trump, but but certainly under a very rule following presidency like Obama's.

那个人的职责是以极高的程序忠实度运作，以极高的细致程度处理事务，以极高的警觉性审视一切，看是否有任何事日后会让我们陷入麻烦？

What that person is charged with doing is operating at such a high level of procedural fidelity, such a high level of crossing your t's and dotting your i's, such a high level of seeing, could anything blow up in our face later?

这里是否存在风险，法律风险、声誉风险？

Is there risk here, legal risk, reputational risk?

我们并没有考虑到这一点。

We are not looking at.

白宫法律顾问的职责是确保白宫远离麻烦。

The White House counsel's job is to keep the White House out of trouble.

所以我想读给你听的这封邮件是拉姆勒发给爱泼斯坦的。

So this email I wanna read it to you is from Rumler to Epstein.

2014年，对吧？在她离开白宫工作之后，她写这封信是为了回应一些她正在处理的事情。

In 2014, right, so post the time of her work at the White House, she's writing in response to to some things she's dealing with.

大多数女孩不需要担心这种烂事。

Most girls do not have to worry about this crap.

Epstein回信说：姑娘，小心点。

Epstein writes back, girl, careful.

我会重拾一个旧习惯。

I will renew an old habit.

本周，Teal、Summers、Bill Burns、Gordon Brown、Jogland、欧洲事务顾问、诺贝尔委员会主席、蒙古总统、Hardeep Pure、印度、Boris、Gates、Jabbar、卡塔尔、Sultan、迪拜、Khalsan、哈佛、Leon Black、Woody。

This week, Teal, Summers, Bill Burns, Gordon Brown, Jogland, counsel on Europe and Nobel chairman, Mongolia Prez, Hardeep Pure, India, Boris, Gates, Jabbar, Qatar, Sultan, Dubai, Khalsan, Harvard, Leon Black, Woody.

你随时欢迎出席任何场合。

You are a welcome guest at any.

另外，如果你觉得城里有什么有趣的人，这里全是来参加气候峰会、克林顿安全理事会的，天哪。

Also, if you think there are interesting people in town, everyone here for climate summit, Clinton Security Council, holy shit.

他给了她她的电话号码，持续了接下来的三十分钟。

I'm he gives her her telephone number for the next thirty minutes.

所以在那封邮件里，他同时对前民主党白宫法律顾问说，嘿。

And so it's like in that email, have him both saying to former Democratic White House counsel, hey.

看。

Look.

我们都可以开个玩笑。

We can all joke.

我的意思是，这发生在他在

I mean, this after his

她开玩笑地称自己为女孩，而他则提醒她小心。

She refers to herself as a girl, jokingly, and he says, careful.

别称自己

Don't call yourself

这发生在他在招募未成年人性行为后被定罪，而她

a This is after his conviction for soliciting sex from a minor, which she

别在我面前用‘女孩’这个词。

Don't use that word girl around me.

否则，我可能会重拾旧习。

Otherwise, I might renew an old habit.

然后，嘿。

And then, hey.

看看这些我都能让你挨着的人。

Look at all these people I can put you next to.

这真是相当非凡。

It's just a kind of remarkable.

你一眼就能看到全部。

You see it all there in one.

确实如此。

It really is.

而且是和这个国家里最能理解风险的人之一。

And with somebody who, of anybody in this country, would understand risk.

但即便对她来说，可能性也压倒了本该在内心响起的警报声。

And yet even for her, like, the possibilities outweigh whatever voice there should have been inside that should have been like a like an alarm going off.

一个人如何从代表曾由乔治·华盛顿、托马斯·杰斐逊和亚伯拉罕·林肯担任的美国总统职位的律师——我们觉得这很正常，就像在大律所套现一样，这没问题——转而向一名因性侵未成年人而被定罪的性犯罪者寻求建议，就像她做的那样，询问是否应该接受奥巴马提供的司法部长职位。

How you go from a lawyer representing the American presidency that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln once occupied to and we think this is normal, but just like cashing in at big law firms, which is fine, to going to a convicted sex offender for sex crimes against a minor for advice, as she does, about whether she should accept Obama's job offer to be attorney general.

所以她在问，'你觉得我应该当司法部长吗？'

So she's going to should do you think I should be attorney general?

正如你在那里看到的，这种从'他是个恋童癖罪犯'的玩笑话，滑向达沃斯精英们那种'疯狂填词'游戏的方式。

And as you see there, the kind of way it glides from a joke about how he's a criminal pedophile to here is this kind of mad libs of the Davos elite.

比如，当他们在二十世纪四十年代中期创立联合国，并选择纽约作为所在地，以及每年九月联合国大会召开时，我想他们没料到这会为一位身败名裂的恋童癖金融家创造机会，让他能接待所有这些来自全球各地的人参加晚宴、沙龙或无论什么活动，然后向这位他会提供职业建议的律师提供认识任何人的机会。

Like, when they invented the UN in the mid nineteen forties and had New York chosen as the location and whenever that September gathering of the UN General Assembly came together, I don't think what they had in mind was creating opportunities for a disgraced pedophile financier to have all these different global people coming over for dinners or salons or whatever it is they were doing and then offering to this lawyer who he would give career advice to the chance to meet whoever.

但是，但是这件事是这样的，当然，现在她在高盛工作，我希望那里的公关部门会联系你，让她来上节目。

But but this is and then, of course, now she's at Goldman Sachs, and I hope the PR department there will will get in touch with you and let her come on the show.

她年薪两千万美元，所以生活过得很好。

She makes $20,000,000 a year, so has a good life.

但我想对大家说的是，我认为很多听这个节目的人都生活在像她这样的人的下游。

But I guess what I would say to people is, I think a lot of people listening to this live downstream of people like this.

你可能每天只知道你的工资感觉不够用，或者你拿到的可调利率抵押贷款感觉在坑你，或者你的工会不再像以前那样有影响力，或者你孩子的学校不断面临资金削减，你真的很担心你的孩子能否在这个新经济中立足，或者人工智能会……而你就像在泥潭里挣扎。

All you may know on a day to day basis is that your pay doesn't feel like it's enough, or the adjustable rate mortgage you got feels like it's screwing you over, or your union doesn't have the leverage it used to have, or your kid's school keeps having these funding cuts, and you're really scared for whether your kid is gonna be able to make it with this new economy, or AI is gonna and you're just you're just, like, swimming in the muck.

正是像这些人一样的人，我们才是。

It is people like these folks that we are.

正是这些人在上游决定着你的生活方式、你的薪资水平、你将最终为之工作的公司类型及其品质与特质、你拥有或不拥有何种养老金、你支付或不支付何种价格、以及你是否会因他们的银行在金融危机前夕自我对赌并危及整个体系而面临止赎。

These are the people deciding upstream how you live, what your pay is like, what kind of companies, the quality and timber of the companies you end up working for, what kind of pension you have or don't have, what kind of prices you pay or not, whether you get foreclosed on or not because their bank bets against itself in the run up to a financial crisis and imperils the whole system.

你只是在努力挣扎求生，通常无法窥见这些人彼此之间是如何交谈的。

You are just trying to swim through, and you don't normally get a glimpse of how these people talk amongst themselves.

这就是一瞥。

This is a glimpse.

结果证明，这并不特别高明，也不特别有见地。

And it turns out to not be particularly brilliant, not be particularly insightful.

他们并不比你多知道多少东西。

They don't know a bunch of stuff that you don't know.

他们简直是从开某人曾是恋童癖的玩笑，一路滑到建议是否接受司法部长职位，再到她向爱泼斯坦索要爱马仕苹果表带作为礼物。

They're literally gliding from jokes about how one of them used to be a pedophile to advice about taking an attorney general job to her requesting a Hermes Apple Watch band as a gift from Epstein.

这就是他们在做的事，而你却在为勉强维持生计而挣扎。

This is what they're doing as you struggle to just eke out your life.

我想谈谈 Epstein 的女性方面，我想从他如何利用这种声誉作为权力和资本开始，逐步讲到这种行为最终演变为犯罪的过程。

So I wanna talk about the the girl side of Epstein, and and I wanna do this in a in a way escalating from the way he used that reputation as power and currency all the way to the way it looks to have become I mean, way it was criminal.

读这些邮件时，让我印象很深的一点是，Epstein 的声誉——我想称之为神秘感——总是围绕着他是个被女人环绕的富人。

One of the things that really struck me reading the emails is how everywhere Epstein's reputation, and I guess mystique is probably the thing to call it, that he cultivates is as the rich guy covered in women.

对吧？

Right?

理查德·布兰森对他说：‘只要你带你的后宫来，随时欢迎你回来。’

Richard Branson saying to him, you're welcome back anytime as long as you bring your harem.

我想读一段埃隆·马斯克和 Epstein 之间的邮件给你听。

So I wanna read you a email between Elon Musk and Epstein.

这是2013年的邮件。

This is 2013.

Epstein 写给马斯克：‘你有去纽约的计划吗？联合国大会开幕时，会有很多有趣的人来家里。’

Epstein writes to to Musk, any plan for NY, the opening of the general assembly has many interesting people coming to the house.

在这里你可以看到，Epstein 想通过马斯克提供结识重要人物的机会。

And so here you see Epstein thinking that what he can do with Musk is offer connections to important people.

马斯克回复了。

Musk writes back.

这其实有点好笑。

I it's actually kinda funny.

我负责两家复杂公司的产品设计与工程工作。

I run and lead product design engineering for two complicated companies.

此外，SpaceX即将发射 arguably 历史上最先进的火箭。

Moreover, SpaceX is about to launch what is arguably the most advanced rocket in history.

飞去纽约见联合国外交官却无所事事，是浪费时间。

Flying to NY to see UN diplomats do nothing would be an unwise use of time.

所以 Epstein 错判了马斯克想要什么。

So Epstein has misjudged what Musk wants.

转折点。

Pivots.

我会按照 Epstein 的写法来读这段话，尽管这不是我平时会用的词，因为我觉得看到这种信号很重要。

I'm gonna read this the way Epstein writes it, even though not a word I normally use because I think it's important to see the signaling.

你觉得我是弱智吗？

Do you think I am retarded?

问号。

Question mark.

开个玩笑。

Just kidding.

没有一个人超过25岁，而且都非常可爱。

There is no one over 25 and all very cute.

Substine转而说道，不。

Substine shifts to saying, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这次聚会不会是联合国外交官。

This party isn't gonna be UN diplomats.

这将是25岁以下的女孩。

It's gonna be girls 25 and under.

没有证据表明必须来参加这个派对或类似活动，但这是你看到他经常用在富人身上的一种另一种形式的货币——你可能以为自己会发财，能参加所有有趣的派对，成为花花公子，身边美女如云。

No evidence that must comes to this party or this whatever, but this is another kind of currency you see him using a lot with the rich, which is you may have thought you would get rich and you would have access to all the fun parties and you would be a playboy and you would have girls all over you.

但对于很多人来说，事情并没有按这样发展。

And for a lot of them, it didn't work out that way.

而你可以加入，他会给你进入这个圈子的入场券，对于那些不缺钱、但可能想要这种东西的人来说，这是一种权力、杠杆和交易手段。

And you can come into it, and he will give you entree into this, which for the people who don't need more money but maybe want this, is a kind of power and leverage and transactionalism.

我想念一段弗吉尼亚·杜夫里《无人之女》一书中的引文，这段话非常有力地揭示了这一点。

I wanna read you a quote from Virginia Dufry's book, Nobody's Girl, that that gets at this in a really powerful way.

她谈到自己做了一个观察。

She talks about she makes an observation.

这发生在她很年轻的时候，我想她当时只有十五六岁。

And this is in the really early days when she's, I think, 15 or 16.

她第一次被迫与爱泼斯坦以及乔琳·麦克斯韦发生性关系。

And she is first forced into sex by Epstein with Epstein and and Jolene Maxwell themselves.

然后他开始强迫她与其他男人发生性关系。

And then he starts to, you know, force her to have sex with other men.

她对那些其他男人做了一个观察。

And she makes an observation about these other men.

她写道：我对其中许多男人的印象是，他们不知道如何追求女性。

And she writes, my impression of many of these men is that they didn't know how to pursue women.

笨拙且社交不成熟。

Awkward and socially immature.

就好像他们聪明的大脑缺失了与他人互动的能力。

It was as if their big brains were missing the ability to interact with other people.

我认为爱泼斯坦本人并非如此。

I don't think this is true about Epstein himself.

我认为其他一些家伙确实是这样，而这正是他吸引力的核心所在。

I think it is true about some of these other guys, and it's absolutely at the heart of this appeal.

你在很多这类人身上都能看到这一点，无论他们是否参与了爱泼斯坦安排的性活动，或者像拉里·萨默斯那样，仅仅是为了寻求约会建议而联系爱泼斯坦。

You see it with a lot of these guys, whether it's whether they were involved in sexual activity that Epstein arranged or not or or in the case of Larry Summers, just reaching out to Epstein for dating advice.

你竟然去向一个被判有罪的恋童癖者寻求约会建议，想知道如何作为一个已婚男人与一位年轻的中国经济学家发生关系。

You reach out to a convicted pedophile for dating advice about how to sleep with a young Chinese economist as a married man.

我想在拉里·萨默斯看来，艾泼斯坦是个很懂性方面事情的人之类的。

I guess because in Larry Summers' mind, like, Epstein is a guy who, like, knows a lot about sex or something.

这根本不是一个类别。

It's like it's not a category.

这些家伙在他们擅长的领域里都非常聪明。

That a lot of these guys are very smart in the area that they're smart in.

我认为正如弗吉尼亚·杜夫里所写，他们在其他方面可能并不擅长，也不愿意在那些方面变得擅长。

I think as Virginia Dufry wrote, not very deft maybe in other areas and didn't want to have to be deft in those areas.

我认为在那个顶层世界里，无论你是有权力的学者还是超级富有的人，你都不想要阻力。

I think in a lot of that stratospheric world, whether you're a powerful academic or a super rich person, you don't want resistance.

你不想遇到反对。

You don't want pushback.

对吧？

Right?

这些人，当他们想在大学里做点什么，或者如果他们非常富有，想去某个地方时，

These are guys who when they have some idea for something they wanna do at their university or some if they're very rich, some place they wanna go.

他们不用在机场排队。

They're not standing in line at the airport.

他们不需要应付各种会议和委员会。

They're not dealing with meetings and committees.

他们是在对世界施加影响。

They're acting on the world.

而且我认为，正如弗吉尼亚·朱弗雷所写，这种心态延伸到了他们与女性的交往中。

And I think this extended, as Virginia Giuffre wrote, to their encounters with women.

他们不想要成年、有感知、有意识、复杂、完整的女性——那些能够反驳他们、可能有自己的想法、可能愿意分享意见、可能有足够自信在房间里作为另一个独立个体存在的女性。

They didn't want adult, sentient, conscious, complex, full women who could talk back to them, who might have thoughts, might have opinions that they would share with them, might have the self confidence to be another person in the room.

他们似乎被吸引的——无论是双方自愿的还是某些情况下的强奸，无论是未成年还是成年——用弗吉尼亚·朱弗雷的话再说一次，爱泼斯坦喜欢告诉他的朋友们，女人不过是为阴道提供生命维持的系统。

What they seemed drawn to, whether it was consensual or in some cases rape, whether it was underage or overage, they seemed drawn to women who to quote Virginia Jouffer again, Epstein liked to tell his friends that women were merely a life support system for a vagina.

那些人格要么被剥夺，要么因她们所生活的恐惧而受到限制的女性。

Women whose personhood had been either taken away or was limited through the fear they were living in.

我认为这再次揭示了那些对此感到吸引的男性。

And I think it is again revealing about the men to whom this was appealing.

我认为她的那句引述很重要，因为这确实有助于解开关于他的一个谜团：这个因招嫖未成年人而被定罪的性犯罪者，

I think that that quote from her is important because I do think this helps solve a mystery about him, which is how is this guy who is a criminal sex offender for soliciting sex with a minor?

后来，在《迈阿密先驱报》进行了大量报道——精彩的报道，堪比真实戏剧——之后，这些人中有许多仍然与他保持联系。

Later on, the subject, and many of these people are sticking with him after this, of massive reporting in the Miami Herald, amazing reporting, True how drama.

他虐待了许多未成年女性和女孩。

Many underage women and girls he's abused.

我认为，除非你彻底转变对这件事本质的看法，否则你无法理解他。

And I think you can't understand him unless you flip what you think the polarity of that would actually be.

并非对所有人都是如此。

Not for everybody.

正如我们之前讨论过的，在那之后，许多人都与这家伙断绝了往来。

As we've talked about before, many people had nothing to do with this guy after that.

也有很多人从未与这家伙有过任何瓜葛。

Many people never had anything to do with this guy.

但对于一些人来说，这恰恰是他魅力的一部分，他过着他们以为自己本应得到的生活。

But for some, this was actually part of his mystique that he was the one leading the life that they thought they had been promised.

舒默把它写进去了。

Showy, Summers puts it in there.

对吧？

Right?

富有而放荡。

Lucretive and louche.

有很多富人。

There are a lot of rich people.

你遇到过他们。

You've run into them.

我遇到过他们。

I've run into them.

他们做到了富有，然后觉得总有一天这会带来放荡。

They made it to lucrative, and they thought at some point that would create louche.

对吧？

Right?

他们在学校里是那些埋头苦干的人。

They were the grinds in school.

他们很聪明。

They're smart.

他们很勤奋。

They're hardworking.

他们心怀怨恨。

They're resentful.

也许他们在高中时过得不容易，但最终成功了。

Maybe they had a tough time in high school, and they they made it.

而顶峰处只有——我的意思是，有金钱，这很好。

And all there was at the top was I mean, there was money, which is great.

有更多的会议，更多的工作，更多的工作，更多的工作。

There's more meetings and more work and more work and more work.

而他们曾被承诺的那些东西从未出现。

And that thing they were promised never showed up.

而这时伊普斯坦出现了，他的整个神秘感就在于，对他而言，那些东西确实出现了。

And here comes Epstein, and part of his whole mystique is that for him, it did.

他就像一座孤岛，那里举办着派对，而这些派对早已声名远扬。

He is an island where there are parties, and those parties are legendary.

也许你并不真正知道这些派对上发生了什么，但你早已听到了一些风声。

And maybe you don't really even know what goes on with them, but you've heard intimations.

这些派对相当狂野。

They're pretty wild.

而这并没有把人们从他身边推开。

And that becomes not what is pushing people away from him.

至少在《迈阿密先驱报》曝光之前，从这些邮件中我看到的是，这些事情反而把人们拉向了他。

At least prior to the Miami Herald reporting, in these emails, what I see is it is pulling people towards him.

是的。

Yeah.

因为就连那份定罪也是他奢华生活的一部分。

Because even that conviction is part of his lushness.

我的意思是，他向人们描述时说，他不知道她未成年，但他过着一种他们自己觉得不够放纵或无力过上的生活。

I mean, he describes it to people as he didn't know she was underage, but he's living the life they do not feel themselves unleashed enough or capable of living.

是的。

Yeah.

对于那些从未接触过这些圈子的人来说，你可能会以为这些人活在一种了不起的盖茨比式的幻想中。

For folks who haven't spent time adjacent to any of these worlds, you might think that these people live in a kind of great Gatsby fantasy.

他们并没有。

They don't.

爱泼斯坦非常与众不同。

Epstein was highly unusual.

这个精英群体，尤其是在我们这个时代，正如我在《纽约时报》文章中所描述的，是一种‘ meritocracy aristocracy’——他们拥有贵族般的权力，但对大多数人来说，今天进入这个圈子不再是靠继承土地或家族头衔。

This elite, particularly in our era in which it is a kind of what I described in the Times piece as a kind of merideau aristocracy where they have aristocratic powers, but, you know, for most people, it's not inheriting land or family title that gets you into that world today.

我认为，这些人大多是受过高等教育、拥有专业资质的。

These are highly educated credentialed people I think for the most part.

我总觉得这一点非常能说明问题。

I always think this is so telling.

过去，精英阶层的工作时间比工人阶级更少。

The elite used to work less, fewer hours This is than the working class.

这是现代美国生活中引人注目的事实。

Striking facts in modern American life.

而现在，他们工作得更多了。

And now they work more.

是的。

Yes.

因此，这是一群人，就像在华盛顿一样，我认为这也是整个美国精英阶层的写照：他们非常努力地工作，他们的生活就是避免犯错。

And so this is a group of people who, as it is in Washington, I think so it is across a lot of this American elite, they work really hard, and their life consists in not making mistakes.

这是一种保守的态度。

It's conservative.

这是一种安全的选择。

It's safe.

这是条笔直狭窄的道路。

It's the straight and narrow.

他们的生活往往非常枯燥。

And they're often quite boring lives.

我认为他们中的很多人晚上8点半就上床了，听着长寿专家的建议，还有那些奇怪的饮食法。

I think a lot of them are in bed by 08:30PM, and they're listening to longevity experts and on, like, weird diets

刷着X。

Scrolling x.

而且不喝酒，因为他们想做到这样那样。

And don't drink alcohol because they're trying to do this and that.

所以当他出现时，我们再次谈到了利用弱点。

Like so when he came along, again, we talked about exploiting vulnerabilities.

他为这些人提供了一种生活，正如你所说得非常好，这种生活可能是他们早年在金融行业赚大钱时以为会达到的终点。

He offered, I think, as you said so well, he offered to these people a life that maybe at some earlier point they thought would be the endpoint of making a lot of money in finance.

但事实上，他们只是坐在康涅狄格州某栋房子里，独自刷着X，或许还对某些事情发表有毒的观点。

But in fact, they're just sitting in some house in Connecticut kind of, like, alone and scrolling x and, like, maybe offering, like, a toxic opinion on something.

而这成为了他们进入某种不同生活的机会，也许是他们觉得自己应得的东西。

And this was this entree into something maybe different, maybe something they felt they were owed.

所以我认为，这就是你逐渐深入到真正犯罪核心的同心圆所在。

And so this is, I think, where you get going into the concentric circles towards the the heart of the actual criminality.

爱泼斯坦在高举这面旗帜。

Epstein is raising this flag.

他说：我是那个被女人围绕的富人。

He's like, I'm the rich guy who's covered in women.

我是那个拥有岛屿、举办疯狂派对的富人。

I'm the rich guy with a harem with an island with these crazy parties.

我是那个传闻缠身的富人，这些传闻让一些人却步，却实际上吸引了另一些人。

I'm the rich guy with rumors about me, rumors which push some people away, but actually act as an attractor for others.

于是你开始看到，那些人想要的或许不只是一个有模特参加的派对。

And so you then begin to see the people who maybe what they want isn't just a party where they're models.

也许他们真正想要的是直接的接触。

Maybe what they want is actually direct access.

这是一封2013年史蒂夫·蒂施——亿万富翁继承人、纽约喷气机队联合所有者——发给杰弗里的邮件。

So here's an email between Steve Tisch, the billionaire scion and co owner of the New York Chance football team, this 2013.

嗨，杰弗里。

Hi, Jeffrey.

我刚和你助理的朋友共进午餐，上周三早上我在你家见过她。

I just had lunch with your assistant's friend who I met at your house Wednesday morning.

这里的名字被隐去了。

The name is redacted here.

是个非常可爱的女孩。

Very sweet girl.

你对她了解吗？

Do you know anything about her?

埃普斯坦。

Epstein.

不了解。

No.

但我会去问问。

But I will ask.

已隐去。

Redacted.

全部保密。

All confidential.

我会获取所有信息。

I will get all info.

你联系过那个翘臀假胸的妹子吗？

Did you contact the great ass fake tit?

此处信息被隐去。

Redacted.

她是个短期角色，有个年长的男友在上表演学校，身材十分火辣。

She's a character short term, has an older boyfriend going to acting school, a 10 ass.

我很高兴能有你这样一位显然志趣相投的新朋友。

I am happy to have you as a new but obviously shared interest, friend.

然后蒂什回信说，谢谢，杰弗里。

And then Tish writes back, thanks, Jeffrey.

很好奇关于已删除内容的信息。

Curious to know about Redacted.

我会联系已删除内容。

I will contact Redacted.

接着他问，是军人还是平民？

Then he asks, pro or civilian?

Epstein 回复说，发个电话给我。

And Epstein writes back, send me a number to call.

我不喜欢保留这些对话的记录。

I don't like records of these conversations.

我想读这一篇，有两个原因。

And I wanted to read that one for for two reasons.

一个是，你在这个时刻可以看到，当他意识到某人有共同兴趣时，就开始拉拢对方，他此刻就像个皮条客。

One is because you see this in this moment, like, when he recognizes, like, somebody who's got a shared interest, right, begins to pull them in and begins to he's acting as a pimp here.

另一方面，我们现在所知的只是被记录下来的内容。

The other is all we know right now is what was written down.

这里有很多本应被调查却尚未调查的事情。

There was a lot here that should have been investigated that hasn't been.

对吧？

Right?

从这个角度看，这就像一个持续发展的故事。

This is like an ongoing story in that way.

很多内容都是在电话中说的。

There was a lot that was said in phone calls.

爱泼斯坦显然对哪些内容不应该出现在邮件链中有一定的警觉性。

Epstein clearly has some situational awareness of what shouldn't be in an email chain.

所以我们在这里看到的，我的意思是，还有我们尚未获得、尚未公布的电子邮件、文件和短信等等。

So what we are seeing here and, I mean, there are emails and files and texts and so on we don't yet have that have not been released.

这非常非常不完整。

It's very, very incomplete.

但你可以看到，他的名声是如何从一个总是被女人环绕的人，一路下滑到为他人提供女人的皮条客。

But you can see how it goes from the reputation is the guy who is always covered in women all the way down to the procure of women.

然后这些人就与他交织在一起。

And then those people are woven in with him.

接着他们分享了一些外界不应该知道的事情，这就形成了一种非常特殊的亲密关系。

Then they share something that the rest of the world is not supposed to know about, and that creates an an intimacy that's going to be very different.

我认为这一点非常重要，因为像史蒂夫·蒂施这样的人实际上并不经常这样发邮件。

I think it's a very important point because people like Steve Tisch don't actually email like this a lot.

我的意思是，这显然是一封极其轻率的邮件，而最轻率的行为莫过于埃兹拉·克莱恩在播客上朗读你那些关于招揽女性的邮件。

They're I mean, again, this is a obviously reckless email, and the ultimate recklessness is that Ezra Klein is reading your emails about soliciting women on a podcast.

所以，很明显，这事对他没成。

So, obviously, it didn't work out for him.

然而，总的来说，这些人非常谨慎，因此值得记住的是，正如你所指出的，我们现在看到的这些，想象一下，实际内容可能比这多十倍。

However, generally, these people are very careful, and so it is worth remembering, as you point out, that we are seeing whatever you're seeing, imagine 10 times more than it.

想象一下，名字可能多出十倍。

Imagine 10 times more names.

想象一下，你知道，这些事也发生在电话里，发生在我们永远看不到、永远无从知晓的场合中。

Imagine, you know, that is happening in phone calls, that is happening in things that we will never see and never know.

对吧？

Right?

想象那些从未被记录在法律文件中的房间里发生的事。

Imagining what is happening in rooms that is not documented in a legal paper trail.

这真的很重要。

That's really important.

更不用说特朗普政府不会公开的那些文件了。

Not to mention just documents that the Trump administration will not release.

在我的书《赢家通吃》中，这本书主要讲的就是这一类人，其中一个人物是劳里·蒂施，她是史蒂夫的妹妹。

In my book, Winners Take All, which is a lot about this class of people, one of my characters is Laurie Tisch, who's Steve's sister.

当我写这本书时，对我来说非常重要的一点是，不要仅仅从外部评判这个世界，而是要与身处这个世界中的人交谈，了解他们如何看待这个世界。

And, you know, when I was writing that book, it was really important to me to not simply judge this world from the outside, but to talk to people who are in this world about how they see the world.

我确实与许多不同背景的人进行了这样的交流。

And I did that with many different types of people.

劳里是我采访过的亿万富翁之一，我非常感激她愿意公开表态，从她的视角谈论这个世界。

And Laurie was one of the billionaires I spoke to who I was very grateful, came on the record, and basically talked about the world from her point of view.

她说，你知道，这是一个非常不公平的世界。

And she said, you know, things like, it's a very unfair world.

这是一个极度不平等的世界。

It's a very unequal world.

这种权力是不公正的。

This kind of power is unjust.

她谈到，当她想到那个家族财富的来源时，包括香烟和其他东西。

She talked about when she thinks about how that family fortune was made, including cigarettes and other things.

她感到恶心反胃。

She feels sick to her stomach.

有时人们会感谢她提供的慈善捐赠。

Sometimes people thank her for philanthropic gifts.

她感到内疚，因为她会想到那些钱的来源。

She feels bad because she thinks about in that moment where the money came from.

但她也说，你看。

But she also said, look.

我们现在就在这里。

We are here now.

我所能做的最好的事就是捐出财物，努力做个好人。

The best I can do is give things away, try to be a good person.

但你看。

But look.

她说这非常引人注目。

And she said it's very striking.

她说，在我和她交谈的这部分结束时，归根结底，要让像我这样的人放弃权力是很困难的。

She said at the end of that section I had with her that at the end of the day, it's hard to convince someone like me to give up power.

于是我问，你如何改变这种状况？

So then I said, how do you change this kind of thing?

这种状况怎么可能改变呢？

How could this kind of thing ever change?

而她的话或许是革命性的。

And I her words were revolution maybe.

我并不是在鼓励任何特定的方法，但我认为这很能说明问题：身处那个世界核心的人最终会认为，在这种权力差距、这些激励机制、这种政治运作方式下，要求我们改变自身行为模式是非常困难的。

I'm not encouraging any particular approach here, but I think it's revealing that someone in the heart of that world ultimately is like, it's very difficult to ask us to be different from the way we are when this is the power distance, when these are the incentives, when this is the way politics works.

要让人们的行为违背系统所鼓励和允许的方式，是极其、极其困难的。

It's very, very difficult to get people to behave contrary to the way the system is encouraging them to behave and allowing them to behave.

不过，我想再花点时间谈谈自由裁量权。

I wanna stay for a minute, though, on discretion.

你刚才在说，史蒂夫·蒂施为什么会和杰弗里·爱泼斯坦做这件事？

You were saying a minute ago, why would Steve Tisch do this with Jeffrey Epstein?

但对很多人来说，可能确实觉得，如果有人知道谨慎行事的方法，那可能就是杰弗里·爱泼斯坦，要么是因为他看起来在做这种事却逍遥法外，要么是因为他已经栽过一次跟头，所以现在会小心谨慎。

But probably for a bunch of people, it actually seemed that if anybody was gonna know the discreet way to do it, it was gonna be Jeffrey Epstein, either because he seems to be doing it and getting away with it or because he's been burnt once, so he'd be careful now.

不管是什么原因。

Whatever it might be.

对吧？

Right?

我不知道杰弗里·爱泼斯坦是如何向人们传递安全信号的。

I don't know how Jeffrey Epstein signaled safety to people.

我要说的是，在所有已披露的文件中，最奇怪、最具暗示性、在某种程度上也最能揭示真相的，是那本2003年的生日簿——那是在他因招揽未成年人发生性关系而被定罪之前。

What I will say is that of all of the documents that have come out here, the strangest and most suggestive and in some way most revealing is the birthday book, which is 2003, so it's prior to his conviction for soliciting sex from a minor.

但真正引人注目的是，它将成为永远令人难以置信的素材——我想说是阴谋论的素材，但这里显然有些东西。

But what what is so remarkable about it and what makes it will make it forever just incredible fodder I wanna say conspiracies, but there's clearly something here.

所以，我这么说并非贬义。

So it's I don't mean that pejoratively.

但这些人中包括世界上一些最有权力的人物，而这么多这些记录、这些写给爱泼斯坦的便条，都结合了极端的淫秽内容，一种极度的不谨慎。

But you have some of most powerful people in the world, and so many of these entries, these notes to Epstein, combine an extreme lewdness, like a like a deep incaution.

比如，我很惊讶看到这些人以这种方式写信和交谈，同时提及神秘、秘密、一些不能透露或分享的事情。

Like, I'm surprised to see these people writing and talking this way with a reference to mystery, secrets, something that cannot be told or shared.

我想读一下唐纳德·特朗普的那封，它被一个女性身体的轮廓框了起来。

I wanna read the one from Donald Trump, which is framed by an outline of a woman's body.

我应该说明，特朗普称这封信是伪造的。

And I should note, Trump says this letter is fake.

他否认签署过它。

He denies signing it.

但看起来像是特朗普的签名，被用作这位女性的阴毛轮廓，上面写着，画外音。

But what appears to be Trump's signature is the woman's pubic hair, and it reads, voice over.

生活一定不止是拥有一切。

There must be more to life than having everything.

唐纳德。

Donald.

是的。

Yes.

有，但我不会告诉你是什么。

There is, but I won't tell you what it is.

杰弗里。

Jeffrey.

很正常，因为我也知道那是什么。

Normalized since I also know what it is.

唐纳德。

Donald.

我们有一些共同点，杰弗里。

We have certain things in common, Jeffrey.

杰弗里。

Jeffrey.

是的。

Yes.

仔细想想，确实如此。

We do come to think of it.

唐纳德，谜题永远不会老去。

Donald, enigmas never age.

你注意到这一点了吗？

Have you noticed that?

杰弗里。

Jeffrey.

事实上，上一次见到你时我就很清楚了。

As a matter of fact, was clear to me the last time I saw you.

唐纳德，朋友真是件美好的事。

Donald, a pal is a wonderful thing.

生日快乐，愿每一天都是另一个美妙的秘密。

Happy birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret.

唐纳德·J。

Donald J.

特朗普。

Trump.

你怎么看这件事？

What do you make of it?

你知道，那些曾与爱泼斯坦在不同层面和不同时间段有交情的人，现在唯一的辩解就是‘我不知道’。

You know, there's been this whole attempt by people who were caught up in various levels and durations of friendship with Epstein to the only defense is I didn't know.

我是在那之后才见到他的，或者我只在这里见过他。

I did I I I met him after this point, or I only met him here.

我不知道，我真的不知道。

I didn't I didn't know.

但生日簿上显示的，你刚刚读了唐纳德·特朗普的那一部分，但还有很多其他人也留下了类似的留言。

But what the birthday book shows and you just read one, Donald Trump's, but there was messages like this from various A lot of people.

很多人。

People.

而且，共和党人、民主党人，各种各样的人都有。

And, again, Republicans, Democrat, all kinds of people.

而且这些留言都是一致的。

And they were consistent.

没错。

Exactly.

我们必须假设，在技术层面上，那里每个人都知道不同的事实和不同程度的信息。

One has to assume that at technical level, everyone there knew different facts and different amounts of things.

但如果你把它们当作一个整体来阅读，这是一本书，就会形成一种关于这个人的共同认知。

And yet if you were to read them as a text together, and it's a book, there's like a cloud of common sense about who this guy is.

这正是最有趣的地方。

That's what's so interesting.

对吧？

Right?

这些内容都包含在其中。

It's it's contained in that.

也许他们全都谈论他和女性，这只是一个巧合。

And maybe it is a coincidence that they all talk about him and women.

也许他对古典音乐同样感兴趣，只是大家都忘了提这一点。

Maybe he had he was equally interested in classical music, and they all just forgot to mention it.

也许当唐纳德·特朗普谈论永恒不老的谜题时，根本与女孩的年龄无关。

Maybe when Donald Trump talks about enigmas never aging, Maybe it had nothing to do with the age of girls.

也许吧。

Maybe.

有可能。

Could be.

我不相信那种说法，但当然。

I don't believe that, but sure.

有可能。

Possible.

你非得绞尽脑汁才能辩称，他周围那些金融、政治、法律、学术等机构里的人，本应更清楚而不该与他为伍、纵容他。

You have to really strain yourself to argue that the people around him in these financial, political, legal, academic, and other institutions shouldn't have known better than to consort with and enable him.

快进到多年后，他在2008年被定罪，之后他又试图洗心革面、重塑形象。

And fast forward to years later when he's convicted in 2008, And then after that time, he comes back and tries to rehabilitate himself.

而这些朋友，如果他们像你我一样在2009年就能访问谷歌，他们理应知道他是谁。

And these friends who, if they had access to Google as you and I did in 2009, had reason to know who he was.

这些故事正在发展演变。

These stories are developing.

我我真的很想强调这一点。

And I I really wanna stress this.

他们不仅仅是未能对某人进行适当的审查。

They're not just failing to vet someone properly.

他们与他交朋友，或维持与他的友谊。

They're befriending him or sustaining friendships with him.

他们允许他向他们的大学捐款。

They're allowing him to give to their university.

他们允许他进入这些圈子。

They're allowing him into these worlds.

助长了未来的侵害行为。

Enabled future predation.

这不仅仅关乎之前发生的事情。

This was not only about what had happened before that.

对吧？

Right?

因此，许多拥有足够声望的人——这些大学接受来自不可靠人士的资金，然后赋予他们大学的光环——实际上是在为他提供声誉洗白服务，而这些服务不仅仅是帮他摆脱污名。

And so what a lot of them who had kind of prestige to spare, you know, the these universities that take money from dodgy people and then to give them the glow of the university, they were kinda selling him these reputation laundering services that weren't just about getting the reputational stink off of him.

摆脱声誉污名使他更容易在世界上活动，并再次实施侵害，而且变本加厉。

Getting the reputational stink off allowed him, made it easier for him to move through the world and do it again and do it more.

我认为这并不仅仅是早期的犯罪行为，随后再进行声誉清洗。

And I think that this was not about an earlier phase of criminality and then some reputational cleansing after.

声誉清洗使得这种行为得以持续。

The reputational cleanse allowed this to keep going.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that is right.

这显然没错，但我还想再谈一会儿特朗普和爱泼斯坦。

It is clearly right, but but I wanna stay on Trump and Epstein here for a minute.

在这次对话过程中，我一直思考他们之间那种奇怪的相似性，比如来自外区的怨恨，一次又一次地欺骗他人。

One thing I've been thinking about across the course of this conversation is the the sort of weird symmetries between them, the kinda outer borough resentment, the stiffing of people over and over and over again.

他们在某个时候非常亲密。

They are very, very close at some point in time.

后来，他们就没那么亲近了。

Later on, they're not as close.

对吧？

Right?