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我们向《纽约时报》的员工提前展示了跨平台联机功能，以下是他们的反馈。
We gave Times employees a preview of cross play from New York Times games, and here's what they had to say.
我终于可以和其他人一起玩了。
I can finally play with other people.
我很有竞争心。
I'm pretty competitive.
击败朋友和同事很有趣。
It's fun to beat friends and coworkers.
我有一个10分的J。
I have a j for 10 points.
我猜'tango'不是一个单词。
I'm guessing tango is not a word.
我们来看看。
Let's see.
'Tango'是个单词吗？
Tango is a word?
哦。
Oh.
作为英语作为第二语言的学习者，我喜欢学习新单词。
As in English as a second language speaker, I like to learn new words.
《交叉玩法》，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。
Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times Games.
今天免费下载吧。
Download it for free today.
来自《纽约时报》观点频道，这是《伊扎·克莱因秀》。
From New York Times Opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.
我尊重并经常同意的一些人，一直在提出相同观点的不同版本。
A number of people I respect and often agree with have been making different versions of the same point.
移民是特朗普最有利的议题，也是民主党最不利的议题。
Immigration is one of Trump's best issues and one of the worst issues for Democrats.
经济是特朗普目前的薄弱环节。
The economy is where Trump is now weak.
所以，如果你真的关心唐纳德·特朗普带来的危险，你就必须击败他。
So if you really care about the dangers Donald Trump poses, you need to beat him.
这意味着要让全国的注意力集中在他的最致命弱点上，那些他最容易被击败的领域。
And that means focusing the country's attention on his worst issues, the places where he is most beatable.
内特·西尔弗提出了类似的观点，加利福尼亚州州长加文·纽瑟姆也是如此。
Nate Silver has made a version of this argument and so did California governor Gavin Newsom.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实就是一种干扰，今天的干扰艺术。
It's it's a you know, this is the distraction of the day and the art of distraction.
我们总说别被干扰分散注意力，可我们自己却在这里左摇右晃。
Don't get distracted by distractions we say, and here we zig and zag.
这正是他们想要的辩论。
This is the debate they want.
正如他们所说，这是他们的八二问题。
This is their 8020 issue as they've described it.
我想给这个观点应有的认可。
And I wanna give this argument it's due.
它并非毫无道理。
It's not without merit.
最优的政治策略通常是将焦点放在对手最薄弱的问题上。
Optimal political strategy is usually to keep the focus on your opponent's worst issues.
对唐纳德·特朗普而言，目前最突出的问题是他点燃全球经济的决定。
For Donald Trump right now, it's his decision to light the global economy on fire.
从这个角度看，把注意力放在布拉沃·加西亚身上是一种干扰。
From that perspective, focusing on a Bravo Garcia is a distraction.
特朗普与布克勒总统的会面是一种干扰。
Trump's meeting with president Bukele is a distraction.
被分散注意力是糟糕的政治策略。
And getting distracted is bad politics.
聚焦于关税问题。
Focus on the tariffs.
关注股市的混乱。
Focus on the stock market chaos.
专注于。
Focus.
但我认为这有两个问题。
But I think there are two things wrong with this.
一是这里的民调并不明确。
One is that the polling here isn't clear.
是的。
Yes.
民主党人在移民问题上变得害怕了。
Democrats have become afraid on the issue of immigration.
他们认为这对唐纳德·特朗普有利。
They see that as a winner for Donald Trump.
但如果你查看关于法治和正当程序的民调，只要这个问题被如此界定——而它本就应该如此界定。
But if you look at the polling on rule of law on due process, to the extent this is framed that way, which it should be.
这实际上正是问题的核心。
That's actually what this is about.
那么民主党就处于一个好得多的位置。
Then Democrats are in a much better position.
人们不希望特朗普政府能够不经过正当程序，随意让居住在这个国家的人消失。
People do not want the Trump administration to be able to randomly disappear, people living in this country without due process.
但我认为这个论点反映了政治体系中角色和时间的普遍混乱。
But I think this argument reflects a a generalized collapse of roles and time across the political system.
如果现在是2026年10月，你正在竞选国会议员，那么你关注的重点就是一个难题，你必须非常密切关注民意动向。
If this was October 2026 and you're running a congressional campaign, then what you focus on is a hard question, and you should pay pretty damn close attention to the pulse.
如果你在决定如何撰写和投放广告，情况也是一样。
If you're choosing how to write and spend money on ads, same thing.
我希望你能在这件事上找到出路。
And I wish you luck figuring it out.
但并非从现在到2026年10月之间每个人说的每件事都值得或应该去进行民意测试。
But not everything that everyone else says between now and October 2026 can or should be poll tested.
把政治的一切都简化为选举，这是一种狭隘的政治观。
It is a thin vision of politics to back literally everything out from elections.
当参议员克里斯·范·霍伦前往萨尔瓦多时——我非常高兴他去了——他代表的是他的选民奥布雷戈·加西亚的妻子，一位美国公民、马里兰州居民，她的丈夫被总统强行带走。
When senator Chris Van Hollen went to El Salvador, and I'm very glad he did, he was representing his constituent, Obrego Garcia's wife, a US citizen and a Maryland resident whose husband had been disappeared by the president.
他与我的对话，是他自被绑架以来第一次与监狱外的人取得联系。
His conversation with me was the first communication he'd had with anybody outside of prison since he was abducted.
他说，他感到非常难过，因为他并没有犯下任何罪行。
He said he felt very sad about being in a prison because he had not committed any crimes.
当我问他，除了获得自由之外，他最想要求的是什么时，他说他想和妻子珍妮弗谈谈。
When I asked him what was the one thing he would ask for in addition to his freedom, he said he wanted to talk to his wife, Jennifer.
我告诉他，我会尽全力帮助他实现这个愿望。
I told him I would work very hard to make that happen.
这就是范·霍伦的职责。
That is Van Hollen's job.
这才是最高级别的选民服务。
That is constituent service of the highest order.
而我们其他人，还有其他的职责和角色，并不都是围绕赢得选举展开的。
And the rest of us, we have other jobs, other roles, and they're not all about winning elections.
我们正身处一场试图建立威权统治的进程中。
We're in the midst of an attempted authoritarian breakthrough.
我认为没有别的说法能更准确地描述这一点。
I don't think there's another way to say that.
特朗普政府在其他部门和权力中心所面临的反对力度，将影响他们的所作所为。
How much opposition the Trump administration faces from other corridors and other power centers will matter to what they do.
如果将人遣送到萨尔瓦多的监狱轻而易举，他们就会做更多这样的事。
If it's easy to deport people to an El Salvadoran prison, they're gonna do a lot more of it.
我认为，历史给我们的一课是，为什么我如此关注这一点：当大规模失踪人的机器开始运转，当这成为一种手段，如果不及早阻止，它可能会肆意蔓延。
One lesson from history, I think, one reason I am so focused here, is that when the machine of disappearing people begins rolling, when that becomes a tactic, it can roll pretty damn far if it's not stopped early.
特朗普试图摧毁大学、摧毁律师事务所、摧毁政府，也是如此。
It's the same with Trump's effort to break the universities, to break the law firms, to break the government.
如果轻而易举，他们就会继续下去。
If it's easy, they will keep going.
他们会做得更多。
They will do more of it.
他们会做得更快。
They will do it faster.
如果很难，他们可能就不会。
If it's hard, they might not.
他们的精力、能量、注意力和资源都是有限的。
They also have limited bandwidth, limited energy, limited attention, limited resources.
选举不是下周就举行。
The election isn't next week.
距离中期选举还有五百五十多天。
We have more than five hundred and fifty days until just the midterms.
在这期间，民间社会必须采取行动。
Civil society needs to act in the interim.
这里不止有一项任务，我们也不处于选举的最后两周。
There is not just one job here, and we are not in the final two weeks of an election campaign.
然后我一直在听另一种说法，这种说法在我听来像是一种宿命论，仿佛国家已经沦陷，仿佛唐纳德·特朗普的权力已经无限，仿佛这场斗争已经失败。
And then I've been hearing this other argument, an argument that can sound to me like a kind of fatalism, as if the country's already fallen, as if Donald Trump's power is already limitless, as if the fight is already lost.
上周节目播出后，我收到的最常见的邮件是：我们真的还会有中期选举吗？这难道不是太天真了吗？
The most common email I got in reply to last week's episode was, isn't it naive to think we're going to have midterms at all?
我认为我们会有中期选举。
I think we will have midterms.
我认为，之所以很难想象如何走向那个未来，是因为太多人脑海中拿它与其他地方、其他时代作比较，比如普京的俄罗斯、墨索里尼的意大利、拉丁美洲不同的威权政变，甚至希特勒的德国。
And I think one reason it can be hard to imagine a way into that is so many people are working in their head with comparisons to other places, to other times, to Putin's Russia or Mussolini's Italy or different authorian takeovers in Latin America or even Hitler's Germany.
和墨索里尼一样，特朗普实际上正在明确列出他打算做什么。
Much like Mussolini, Trump is actually laying out exactly what he plans to do.
这源于法西斯主义，也源于像智利的皮诺切特那样的军事独裁传统。
This comes out of fascism and also the tradition of military dictatorships like Pinochet in Chile.
德国发生过的事情与现在美国正在发生的事情之间的相似性是无法否认的。
Similarities to what happened in Germany and what's happening now in America are just undeniable.
请想想这一点。
Consider this.
纳粹只用了一个月零三周零两天零八小时零四十分钟，就瓦解了一个宪政共和国。
It took the Nazis one month, three weeks, two days, eight hours, and forty minutes to dismantle a constitutional republic.
我只想说，当五级警报的火灾燃起时，每个正直的人都必须准备好拿起水桶守在岗位上，才能阻止它失控蔓延。
And all I'm saying is that when the five alarm fire starts to burn, every good person better be ready to man a post with a bucket of water if you wanna stop it from raging out of control.
但所有这些故事的问题在于，我们知道它们的结局。
And the problem with all those stories is that we know how they ended.
至少在一段时间里，独裁者成功地巩固了权力。
At least for a time, the tyrant successfully consolidated power.
反对派失败了。
The opposition lost.
选举不再是一种有效的制衡手段。
Elections were no longer a usable check.
当我们开始认为，理解我们当下处境的唯一方式就是通过那些历史时刻时，就很容易陷入一种心理上的宿命论。
When we start to think that the only way to understand our moment is through those moments, it becomes easy to slip into a kind of mental inevitability.
但我们不需要到国外去寻找比较的案例。
But we don't need to look abroad for our comparisons.
我不是说这样做没有价值，但不应该是我们唯一做的事。
Not saying there's no value in doing so, but it shouldn't be the only thing we do.
驱逐、驱赶、侵犯公民自由、剥夺权利，这些都是美国传统的一部分。
Deportations and expulsions and abuses of civil liberty and the taking away of rights, that's all part of the American tradition.
非自由主义是美国传统的一部分。
Illiberalism is part of the American tradition.
吉姆·克劳法、红色恐慌、日裔美国人拘禁、湿背行动。
Jim Crow, the Red Scare, Japanese American interment, Operation Wetback.
特朗普并不是第一个指认国内敌人、认定其权利无效并动用国家机器对付他们的人。
Trump is not the first to name a domestic enemy, decide that their rights are no longer valid, and turn the machinery of the state against them.
唐纳德·特朗普身上确实有很多独特之处，但他远没有人们有时描绘的那样格格不入。
There is much that is distinctive about Donald Trump, but he's not nearly so alien a force as he is sometimes made out to be.
美国曾陷入过数个糟糕的非自由主义时期，但最终都挣扎着走了出来。
America has fallen into terrible eras of illiberalism, and it has fought its way back out of them.
这一切都是在我们的制度、我们的机构、我们的神话以及我们对国家性格的认知背景下发生的。
It has done so in the context of our system, our institutions, our myths, our idea of our national character.
过去的情况已经如此糟糕，这让我们不再幻想现状不可能变得更糟；但过去我们曾成功击退这种趋势，至少曾将其遏制，这让我们不应陷入宿命论，认为如今已无法再将其遏制。
That it has gotten so bad in the past should free us of any illusion that it cannot get much worse now, but that it has been successfully defeated in the past, at least beaten back, should free us from the fatalism that it cannot be beaten back now.
今天我的嘉宾是纽约大学的普利策奖得主历史学家史蒂文·哈恩。
My guest today is Steven Hahn, a Pulitzer Prize winning historian at NYU.
他的著作《非自由主义的美国》追溯了这一美国政治脉络，从建国之初甚至更早以前开始。
His book, Illiberal America, tracks this thread of American politics back to our founding and even before.
自由主义与非自由主义之间的互动，一直伴随着我们。
The interplay between liberalism and illiberalism has always been with us.
它将永远伴随着我们。
It will always be with us.
接受这一点，有助于更清晰地看清它的力量与脆弱性。
Accepting that helps bring both its power and its vulnerability into clearer focus.
史蒂文·哈恩，欢迎来到节目。
Steven Hahn, welcome to the show.
谢谢您邀请我参加节目。
Thank you for having me on the show.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
所以在特朗普的第一个任期内，我们经常听到这样的建议：不要使他正常化。
So in Trump's first term, we often heard the advice, don't normalize him.
这不正常。
This is not normal.
这是异常的。
This is abnormal.
我们会听到这是不符合我们的本质的。
We would hear this is not who we are.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而你的观点是，这某种程度上是正常的。
And your view is this is sort of normal.
这是我们的一部分，而且一直如此。
This is part of who we are and always has been.
我认为，人们迫切希望用一套自由民主规范的概念——即‘规范’这个词——来理解我们作为一个民族的身份以及我们长期以来的政治实践方式。因此，尽管特朗普可能令人不安，但认为这是一种奇怪的异常现象，反而让人感到某种安慰。
Well, I think that there was a deep desire to think about a set of liberal democratic norms, the use of the term norms, as a way of understanding how we have been as a people and how we have practiced politics and therefore there was, as alarming as Trump may have been, there was something comforting about thinking that this was a weird abnormality.
这就像一种有毒的杂草突然冒了出来。
It was kind of a noxious weed that had sprouted.
是旧秩序最后的喘息。
A dying gasp of an old order.
要么这就是一种潜在新生秩序的危险突起，但这种突起可以被拔除，我们就能回归正常。
Either that or as a dangerous protrusion of a new order potentially coming into being, but that could be pulled out and we would go back to normal.
在2015年和2016年，让我深感震撼的并非特朗普本人，而是那些记者和许多深思熟虑的观察者，他们对特朗普屡次违背自由民主规范的行为感到震惊，尽管在过去两到三年里，这些规范早已在诸多方面被严重削弱，但他们仍执意维护这些规范，拒绝将他正常化。
I was really struck in twenty fifteen, sixteen, not so much by him per se, but by journalists and other very thoughtful observers who were aghast at his various violations of liberal democratic norms even though for the previous two and a half, three decades, they had been undermined in so many different respects, but wanting to hold on to them and not to normalize him.
所以你写道，非自由主义‘深深植根于我们的历史’，
So you write that illiberalism is, quote, deeply embedded in our history,
并非处于边缘，而是处于核心位置。
not at the margins, but very much at the center.
当你这么说时，你所指的‘非自由主义’具体是什么？
When you say that, what is the illiberalism you're talking about?
我所说的是这样一种世界观：它接受不平等、固有的不平等，接受国家、种族和性别之间的等级制度，追求文化和/或宗教的统一性，持一种特殊主义的权利观——意味着你并不随时随地拥有权利，你只在特定地方拥有它们，而不是始终拥有；它还涉及界定内部和外部敌人，并将排斥或驱逐作为应对方式；它将权力的获取与维持与政治暴力的合法性联系起来；最重要的是，它强调的是社群的意志凌驾于法治之上。
I'm talking about a way of thinking about the world that has to do with the embrace of inequality, inherent inequalities, about hierarchies of nation and race and gender, about a desire for cultural and or religious uniformity, a particularist idea about rights, meaning you don't carry your rights with you, you may have them where they are, but you don't have them all the time, an idea of marking internal as well as external enemies and the use of exclusion or expulsion as a way of dealing with this, thinking about the access to and maintenance of power with the legitimacy of political violence, and as much as anything, really it's about the will of the community over the rule of law.
我认为，将这些视为一套在欧洲殖民北美之前就已存在的思想与关系，它们早于自由主义，并与自由主义深度交织，却拥有自身的逻辑。
And I think understanding this as a set of ideas and relationships that really preceded the European colonization of North America and has preceded liberalism and then became very much entangled to it but had a logic of its own.
让我们深入探讨一下这段历史背景。
Let's go into a bit of that historical depth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你书中令我感兴趣的一部分，是你对托克维尔《论美国的民主》的分析。
One of parts of your book I found interesting was your analysis of Alexis de Tocqueville's democracy in America.
通常人们将这部著作视为阐述美国不可避免走向自由民主的早期结构的文献。
That's normally seen as a document laying out the early structure of America's inevitable ascent into liberal democracy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但你对它的解读却截然不同。
And you read it quite differently.
是的。
I do.
我从两个角度解读它：一方面是他对他所看到的强劲个人主义和平等的兴趣与钦佩，另一方面则是他对这种趋势可能走向何方的一系列警告。
I read it both in terms of his interest and admiration for what he saw as a robust individualism and equality, but I also read it as a series of warnings about where this could be headed.
他警告中最长的部分涉及他对奴隶制与种族的长篇论述，他认识到这种现象渗透了整个国家。
The largest section of his warnings had to do with his very long chapter on slavery and race, which he recognized infused the entire country.
事实上，他认为，种族主义在奴隶制已被废除的地方比在奴隶制仍然存在的地方更为强大。
In fact, he thought racism was more powerful where slavery had been abolished than where slavery still existed.
但我尤其感兴趣的是他对地方民主和一般地方政治、集体与结社活动的理解。
But I was especially interested in how he understood local democracy and local politics in general, the collective and associational activities.
让他担忧的是他所说的‘多数人暴政’、思想的狭隘性，以及基层团体如何倾向于强调某些关于归属感的理念，同时却将那些不符合这些标准的人置于真正的危险之中。
What worried him was what he called the tyranny of the majority, the narrowness of mind, the way in which associations on the ground tended to emphasize certain ideas about belonging but at the same time put those who didn't fit in into real jeopardy.
他最终认为，美国极有可能迅速走向专制，人们会愿意放弃自己的权利和忠诚，转而效忠于一个强人。
He ended up arguing that he thought it was likely or is certainly possible that The United States could very very quickly move toward a despotism and where people would be willing to give up their rights and loyalty to a strong man.
所以当你读到这些时，你会想，他确实敏锐地把握住了19世纪30年代正在发生的事情，而正如你所说，这些内容常常被忽视，因为这本书已成为确立美国例外论观念的标志性文本，并在冷战初期被重新出版，当时美国例外论和美国共识观念正获得巨大影响力。
So you read this and you think, you know, I think he really had his finger on things that were going on in the eighteen thirties that oftentimes as you mentioned are kind of overlooked because it has become one of those texts that are iconic in establishing ideas of American exceptionalism and it was republished during the early phases of the Cold War when ideas about American exceptionalism and American consensus were taking great strength.
所以在19世纪30年代，你也有一个例子，那就是在安德鲁·杰克逊时期，你所谈论的这种传统达到了鼎盛状态。
So in the eighteen thirties, you also have an example of the tradition you're talking about at really full strength under Andrew Jackson.
你专门写了一章关于杰克逊使用驱逐和放逐手段的内容，你认为这属于非自由主义传统的核心，我认为这也是我们正在追踪的故事的关键部分。
And you have a chapter on this, in particular around Jackson's use of deportations and expulsions, which you see as central to the illiberal tradition and I think is central to the the sort of story we're tracking here.
所以从你的角度来看，能跟我讲讲那个十年吗？
So tell me a bit about that decade from your perspective.
是的。
Right.
显然，将原住民从密西西比河以东的土地上驱逐到所谓的印第安领地，这是美国历史上第一个不被视为最终会走向建州的领土。
Obviously, the expulsion of native peoples from their lands East Of The Mississippi to what was regarded as Indian Territory which was really the first territory in The United States that was not imagined as heading towards statehood.
所以，这到底是什么，其实并不完全清楚。
So it's not entirely clear what it was.
这是自17世纪就开始的一个进程的终结，该进程旨在移除和驱逐原住民。
This was the end of a process that had begun back in the seventeenth century that was directed toward removing, expelling native people.
但重要的是要认识到，这在当时美国社会和政治文化中是一个核心方面。
But the thing that's important to recognize is that this was a central aspect of American society and political culture in that period.
自由的非裔美国人成为驱逐的目标，这被称为殖民化。
Free African Americans were targeted for expulsion, it was called colonization.
这可以追溯到十八世纪，甚至托马斯·杰斐逊也无法想象白人和黑人在自由条件下如何共处，这一点后来被托克维尔重新阐述。
This goes back to the eighteenth century and even Thomas Jefferson who couldn't really imagine how white and black people could live together under conditions of freedom in some ways that Tocqueville re articulated.
但当时出现了暴徒，他们不仅针对城市中自由或逃亡的非裔美国人，还针对天主教徒、摩门教徒——你知道，约瑟夫·史密斯在19世纪40年代被谋杀，地点离林肯的家乡伊利诺伊州斯普林菲尔德不远，还有废奴主义者。
But there were mobs that were focused on driving out not only African Americans in cities where they were free or had escaped from enslavement, Catholics, Mormons, you know Joseph Smith is murdered in the eighteen forties not far from Springfield, Illinois, Lincoln's place, abolitionists.
19世纪30年代，大小城市都爆发了反废奴主义暴乱，因为他们被指控煽动种族混合。
The eighteen thirties were a time of these anti abolitionist riots in cities large and small because they were accused of promoting miscegenation.
那解决办法是什么？
And what was the remedy?
解决办法就是把他们赶出去。
The remedy was to drive them out.
给我讲讲
Tell me a bit
杰克逊用来为驱逐行为辩护的言辞。
about the rhetoric Jackson uses to justify the expulsions.
如果今天有人读到它，是的。
If somebody's reading it today Yeah.
其中有多少内容在我们听来会显得恐怖而过时？
How much of it would read horrifying and archaic to our ears?
我们不会再这样思考了。
We don't think like that anymore.
那又有多少不会呢？
And how much would not?
我们会在哪些地方听到共鸣？
How much would we we hear resonance in?
这是个非常好的问题。
That's a really good question.
事实上，这揭示了历史认知和思维方式的巨大变化。
And in fact, it suggests the way in which historical understanding and thinking has really changed.
杰克逊长期以来被视为英雄的原因之一，是他作为奴隶主的身份以及作为印第安战士的多重角色被弱化了，而被强调的是他表面上对普通民众和民主政治的支持，也就是所谓的‘杰克逊时代’。
One of the reasons that Jackson attained heroic proportions for a very long time was his status as an enslaver and his multifaceted role as an Indian fighter tended to be diminished, and what was emphasized was his apparent support for the common man popular democracy, the age of Jackson so to speak.
你知道，杰克逊和许多白人美国人一样，认为原住民不属于这里，他们正面临灭绝的危险，而他所做的是为了原住民的利益，为他们寻找一个远离人口中心的领地，使他们能在某种程度上得到安全。
You know, Jackson thought, like many white Americans thought, that native people didn't belong, that they were in jeopardy of basically dying out, and that what he was doing was actually in their interest by finding a territory outside of the centers of population where native people could in some ways be safe.
你知道，我们之所以觉得这种观点令人恐惧，是因为我们已经了解了原住民复杂的历史，以及这种驱逐行为是一个长期的过程。
You know, we only would read this in a horrifying way because of what we've learned about the really complicated history of native peoples and how this has been a long term process of expulsion.
因此，他试图将这种行为包装成一种替代方案，声称这是为了避免原住民遭受肉体毁灭和灭绝。
So he tried to dress it up as something that he was doing as an alternative to their physical destruction and their dying out.
但我认为，一个了解美国历史和原住民历史的现代读者，大体上都能看穿他真正的意图。
But I think a modern reader by and large who knew anything about the history of The United States and of native people would recognize what he was really after.
这与杰克逊的‘普通人’政治有多大的关联？
How connected is it to Jackson's politics of the the common man?
对普通人的支持、对普通人声音的引导，究竟在多大程度上与这个‘必须驱逐谁才能让普通人成为主体’的计划交织在一起？
How much does the support of the common man, the channeling of the common man, braid itself into this project of who you have to push out so they're not part of the common man?
没错。
Right.
我认为，他把自己视为代表阿巴拉契亚山脉以西白人美国人的利益，这些人本身正在努力扩张人口和定居点，而这必然会以牺牲原住民为代价。
I think he saw himself as representing the interests of white Americans in the Trans Appalachian West, who themselves were in the process of trying to expand their population and settlements, which would be at the expense of native people.
因此，从某种意义上说，杰克逊真正代表的是来自阿巴拉契亚山脉以西地区的首位总统。
And so in a sense what Jackson really represented was, you know, he was the first president from the Trans Appalachian West.
他得到了来自该地区以及南方各州白人成年男性群体的强力支持，因为他本人是奴隶主，并致力于维护奴隶制度。
He had strong support among white adults, white adult men from that area and also from the Southern States because he was a slave owner and he was committed to the maintenance of slavery.
所以你知道，在当时美国大多数州，投票权和担任公职的财产资格要求正在被取消。
So you know at the same time access to politics in The United States in most states in terms of voting and office holding, property holding requirements were being dropped.
因此，白人成年男性获得了前所未有的政治参与机会。
And so adult white men had more access than ever.
尽管在大多数地方，非裔人群、女性，甚至许多地方的劳动力（因为由妇女和儿童组成）仍被排除在外，但人们仍有一种感觉，即民主扩展的基础当时正在奠定。
And so even though in most places people of African descent didn't, women didn't, in some ways the workforce in many many places didn't because they were made up of women and children, but nonetheless there was kind of this sense that the groundwork for what would be an expanse of democracy was being laid then.
杰克逊在这个时刻尤其引人注目，因为人们明确地将他视为唐纳德·特朗普的榜样。
Jackson is interesting, I think, in this moment particularly, because he is very explicitly talked about as a model for Donald Trump.
特朗普将他的肖像重新挂回了椭圆办公室。
Trump restored his portrait to the Oval Office.
当你听到特朗普及其身边的人——比如第一任期时的史蒂夫·班农——谈论杰克逊、颂扬杰克逊时，你听到他们是在将他与什么联系起来？
When you hear Trump and the people around him, like Steve Bannon the first term, who talk a lot about Jackson, who lionize Jackson, what do you hear them connecting to in him?
我认为他们可以联系到很多方面，尤其是他对最高法院关于驱逐原住民裁决的反抗。
Well, I think there are a number of things that they could connect to, not least was his defiance of Supreme Court rulings on the potential expulsion of native people.
你知道，他说，好吧，没问题，让他们去执行吧。
Know, he said, okay, that's fine, let them enforce it.
我认为他们把他看作一个所谓的强势领导人，愿意、有能力并热衷于按照自己的意愿推动方向。
I think they see him as a quote unquote strong leader who was willing and able and interested in moving directions of his own choosing.
显然，他对联邦政府有着非常复杂的关系，但在19世纪30年代的废止危机中，他坚定地站了出来——当时南卡罗来纳州说，与杰克逊对最高法院的看法不同，我们不会执行关税法。
Obviously he had a very complicated relationship with the federal government, but he stood up very strongly because the nullification crisis in the eighteen thirties when South Carolina said, unlike Jackson's view of the Supreme Court, no, we're not gonna enforce the tariff.
杰克逊威胁要从军事和政治上彻底粉碎他们。
Jackson threatened to really crush them militarily as well as politically.
所以我认为，他们把他看作一位早期的行政领导人，他在总统权力相对有限的时代，致力于扩大总统的权力，那时最重要的权力仍掌握在各州和国会手中。
So I think they see him as an example of an early executive who was interested in expanding the powers of the presidency at a time when the president of The United States really had relatively few powers and you know the important power remained in The States and nationally in the Congress.
我认为他们把他视为后来发生之事的先兆，而特朗普显然非常钦佩这一点。
And I think they saw him as a harbinger of what would happen later and what Trump clearly admires.
让我
Let me
让我们把时间稍微推后一点，谈谈红色恐慌。
move forward in time a bit to the Red Scare.
是的。
Yeah.
你在书中花了相当多的篇幅讲述1919年和1920年的帕尔默突击行动。
You spent some real time in the book on the Palmer raids in 1919 and 1920.
那是什么？
What were they?
帕尔默突击行动之所以叫这个名字，是因为当时的美国司法部长是A.
Well the Palmer raids are called the Palmer raids because the attorney general of The United States was A.
米切尔·帕尔默。
Mitchell Palmer.
我认为这是一个例子，说明那些被当权者视为政治上不可接受的人，会遭受各种形式的镇压，包括各种形式的驱逐。
I think it was an example of how people who were regarded by those in power as politically objectionable could suffer all sorts of forms of repression including expulsions of various sorts.
它不仅针对孤立主义者，也包括左翼人士，首先是那些与社会主义有复杂关系的人，然后是在俄国革命之后，与共产主义传播有关的人，或者那些 simply 不符合他们心目中美国应为白人基督徒共和国这一观念的人。
It included people who were isolationists, but it's also included people who were on the left, first socialists who had a complicated history with that, and then after the Russian revolution, people who were associated with the spread of communism, or those who quite simply did not fit into their view of what The United States should be, which is a republic of white Christians.
在那个特定时期，联邦政府参与了对这些运动的镇压，无论是通过起诉他们——比如尤金·德布斯在狱中竞选总统——还是通过驱逐他们，不仅针对共产主义者和社会主义者，还包括被指控为无政府主义者的人。
And in that particular time the federal government became involved in the repression of these movements and whether it involved prosecuting them, I mean Eugene Debs ran for president from jail, or whether it had to do with expelling them, not only communists and socialists but people who were accused of anarchism.
奥萨卡和万泽蒂，你知道，成为了这种现象的一个非常臭名昭著的例子。
Osaka and Vanzetti, you know, became a very notorious example of how that could happen.
重要的是要认识到，三K党在这一时期正在重新组织。
It's important to recognize that the Ku Klux Klan was in the process of reorganizing in this period.
它在1910年代重新建立，但在1920年代真正爆发，并从这些思潮中汲取了力量。
It was reestablished during the teens, but it really exploded in the 1920s and it fed off a lot of these currents.
它钦佩其他地方的法西斯政权。
It admired fascist regimes elsewhere.
它推崇其中所包含的政治暴力和准军事行为。
It admired the sort of political violence and paramilitarism that went into it.
你知道，他们做的一件事就是执行禁酒令，他们认为这是对欧洲移民及其他非白人基督徒生活方式的攻击。
You know, one of the things that they did was enforce prohibition, which they regarded as an attack on the life ways of European immigrants and others who were not white Christians.
说到法西斯主义，你提出一个观点，认为在20年代，你有禁酒令，正如你所说，还有第二次三K党。
Speaking of fascism, you have this argument that in the twenties, you have prohibition, as you're saying, the second KKK.
你认为，引述原文，构成意大利和德国法西斯主义的线索，最早并非出现在欧洲，而是在那个时期的美国。
You argue that, quote, the threads composing the fabric of Italian and German fascism were an earliest evidence, not in Europe, but at that moment in America.
对。
Right.
为什么？
Why?
嗯，我在书中试图做的一件事是认识到，非自由主义并不是单一的东西。
Well, one of the things I try to do in the book, which is recognizing that illiberalism is not one thing.
它不是一成不变的静态事物。
It's not an unchanging static thing.
它是一系列思想和对权力关系的观念，我要思考的是，在我们所谓的进步时期，非自由主义是如何被现代化的。
It's a collection of ideas and notions of relationships or political power, is to think about how illiberalism was modernized during what we call the progressive period.
而在这个过程中，社会工程的理念、优生学的运用——这一点常常被该时期的历史学家忽视——还有剥夺选举权、种族隔离，以及以种族化话语为借口的海外战争。
And there the idea of social engineering, the use of eugenics, which is oftentimes not adequately accounted for by historians of the period, disfranchisement, segregation, warfare overseas that was justified in racialized terms.
使用那些在密西西比河以西印第安战争中获得经验的军队。
The use of troops who basically got their experience in Indian wars in the Trans Mississippi West.
而这一理念由一些人倡导，赫伯特·克劳利就是一个很好的例子，他是《新共和》的创始人之一，也是西奥多·罗斯福‘新民族主义’的倡导者，但他却对所谓的杰斐逊式民主抱有极大的怀疑。
And the idea that was advocated by people, Herbert Crowley is a good example because he was one of the founders of the New Republic, he was one of the advocates of Teddy Roosevelt's new nationalism, and yet he was very suspicious of what he called Jeffersonian democracy.
他认为，美国许多民众并不理解国家的使命，因此政治事务理应由受过训练的专家来主导。
He thought that many people in The United States didn't understand the national purpose, and that therefore politics really should be conducted by those who were trained, by those who were experts.
我的意思是，希特勒不是曾赞扬过美国的移民政策吗？
I mean, doesn't Hitler praise American immigration
这位西进扩张的伟大倡导者认为，这正是美国版的‘喘息空间’。
policy in this great advocate of westward expansion because this was the American version of breathing room.
你知道，纳粹和美国科学家在优生学领域共享了大量研究成果。
You know, the Nazis and American scientists were sharing a lot of their work about Eugenics.
我的意思是，他们隐约感觉到自己正在参与一项共同的事业。
I mean, they kind of sensed that they were involved in a joint project.
因此，我认为，尽管不能说美国正在走向纳粹主义的方向，但在20世纪30年代，确实有很多人从许多方面热烈拥抱了德国正在发生的一切。
So I do think that without saying that The United States was moving in a Nazi direction, I mean there were people obviously who in the 1930s very much embraced what was going on in Germany on many accounts.
在20年代到30年代初，有许多人认为墨索里尼指明了大西洋欧洲世界未来的方向，因为他显得积极、有作为、强势，并且清醒地认识到那种已陷入严重质疑的自由主义国家模式的局限性。
There were many people in the 20s and into the early 30s who thought that Mussolini was really pointing out the future that the Euro Atlantic world was headed because he seemed to be somebody who was active, engaged, strong, and recognized the limitations of a kind of the liberal state that had really fallen into real question.
你知道，三K党是二十世纪二十年代规模最大的社会运动，他们对美国未来的构想，是一种早期的‘美国优先’主义。
You know the Klan was the largest social movement in the nineteen twenties and their ideas about what The United States would be, it was an early America first ism.
我的意思是，这正是它兴起的地方。
I mean, that's really where it emerges.
所以，我认为，尽管并不一定意味着这就是意大利法西斯主义或纳粹主义——它确实不是。
And so, again, I think that without necessarily saying that this was Italian fascism or this was Nazi, which it wasn't.
但要说某些理念、某些联系以及整体的项目，即谁应该参与其中、谁不应该参与，这种观念是颠倒的。
But to say that some of the ideas, some of the connections, and the overall project, the sense of who really should be participating in this, who shouldn't be participating in flip it.
因为我觉得，在政治中，尤其是对我们这些喜欢思考理念的人来说，嗯。
Because I think so often in politics, particularly those of us who like thinking about ideas Mhmm.
我们往往只关注供给侧，而不是需求侧，用经济学家的话来说。
We think about the supply side, not the demand side, to be an economist about it.
我们关注政治家和政治运动提供了什么，但这些供给只有在满足或创造了需求时才有意义。
We think about what politicians and political movements are offering, but those offerings only matter if they meet or create demand.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，是的，美国发生的事情并不是意大利法西斯主义。
And so, yes, what was happening in America is not Italian fascism.
对。
Uh-huh.
也不是纳粹主义。
It's not Nazism.
它也不是其他任何地方的任何东西，因为我们有自己的背景，但确实存在对某种东西的需求。
It's not anything that is anywhere else because we have our own context, but there is a demand for something.
我认为，从早期的角度来看，这回应了类似的焦虑，表达了对归属感的类似看法。
I think that's a absolutely in an early way, speaking to similar anxieties, speaking to similar views about belonging Mhmm.
回应了类似的恐惧：如果一个国家变得过于多元文化，权力结构发生太大变化，或者不合适的人参与投票，会发生什么。
Speaking to similar fears about what will happen to a country if it becomes too multicultural or the power structure changes too much or the wrong kinds of people are voting.
我总是觉得，我们犯了一个错误：过于关注政客说了什么，却忘了他们所说的话只有在符合选民愿望时才有意义。
I always think we make this mistake that we're so focused on what the politicians say that we forget that what they say only matters if it matches what the voters want.
我同意。
I agree.
我认为有必要认识到这些思想所依赖的社会基础。
I do think it is important to recognize the kind of social basis that existed for these ideas.
因为尽管我们可能觉得种族剥夺和种族隔离——也就是我们所说的吉姆·克劳法——极其可怕，但反对这些做法的主要是非裔美国人，而且并非所有非裔美国人都参与其中，但大多数是。
Because you know as horrific as we may find it, you know disfranchisement and segregation, Jim Crow as we call it, only had pushback coming from the, you know, African Americans and not all of them, but most of them.
大多数白人美国人和政治领袖都认为，这是一种完全合理、完全现代的方式来安排美国社会中存在的巨大多样性和不平等。
And most white Americans and political leaders thought that this was a perfectly reasonable, perfectly modern way of choreographing the great diversity and inequalities that existed in American society.
因此，毫无疑问，这些右翼团体确实满足了一种需求，即建立社区感和归属感。
So there's no question that these right wing groups really did fulfill a need but you know a sense of community building, a sense of what belonging was.
这种归属感不仅包括你感到舒适、认为属于社区的人，也包括排斥、抵制或压制那些你视为政治威胁的人。
Belonging that not only included people you were comfortable with and you thought were part of the community, but non belonging and the resistance or expulsion of those or the repression of those who you saw as political threats.
谈谈1924年的约翰逊-里德法案吧。
Tell me about the Johnson Reed Act of 1924.
嗯，那是美国通过的第一项重大移民法案。
Well, you know, that was really the first major immigration act that was passed.
它首次确立了配额制度。
It established quotas for the first time.
在此之前，主要是针对华人的排华法案，以及后来针对亚洲人的排斥法案，这些法案并非设立配额，而是旨在阻止亚洲人进入美国。
Before then, it was really the Chinese and then Asian exclusion acts, which were not designed to have quotas but designed not to have people from Asia come to The United States.
1924年的移民法案有所不同，它被设计成旨在遏制来自世界某些地区的移民，这些人被视为文化上无法同化、政治上不可接受，是高生育率群体，因此不仅因为其入境人数，更因为他们在抵达美国后的人口增长，威胁到了美国的人口平衡。
The 1924 Immigration Act was different, and it was organized in such a way that it really did try to undercut the migration of people from certain parts of the world who were regarded as culturally unassimilable, as politically objectionable, as people who were breeders and therefore threatened the population balances in The United States not simply by the numbers who arrived but by the population increase once they got to The United States.
当这项法案通过时，我在大多数主流新闻媒体上看到，它都被热烈庆祝。
And you know when it was passed, I mean in in you know most major journalistic venues it was celebrated.
《纽约时报》、《洛杉矶时报》等媒体都纷纷表示，这是保护我们所熟悉的美国的正确方式。
The New York Times, the LA Times, everyone sort of saying yeah this was the way in which we could preserve an America that we feel comfortable with.
你知道，这项法律一直执行到1965年。
You know, this was a law that was enforced until 1965.
更不用说，那些试图逃离纳粹德国和大屠杀的犹太人，也受到了这项法案的伤害。
Not to mention that, you know, Jews who were trying to flee Nazi Germany and then the Holocaust were themselves harmed by this.
但我认为，这是20世纪20年代整体趋势的一部分：为那些容易被同化的人提供归属感，而对那些无法被同化的人则只提供压制或排斥。
But I think it's part of a piece of what's happening in the 1920s as trying to offer belonging to people who could be easily assimilated and offering little but repression or non belonging to people who couldn't.
这是AG索勒斯伯格。
This is AG Solesberger.
我是《纽约时报》的出版人。
I'm the publisher of The New York Times.
我负责监督我们的新闻业务和商业运营。
I oversee our news operations and our business.
但我也曾是一名记者，近年来目睹我们的行业不断萎缩，感到十分担忧。
But I'm also a former reporter who has watched with a lot of alarm as our profession has shrunk and shrunk in recent years.
通常，在这些广告中，我们会谈论订阅《纽约时报》的重要性。
Normally, in these ads, we talk about the importance of subscribing to The Times.
今天，我想传达一个不同的信息。
I'm here today with a different message.
我鼓励你们支持任何致力于原创报道的新闻机构。
I'm encouraging you to support any news organization that's dedicated to original reporting.
如果是你们当地的报纸，那就太好了。
If that's your local newspaper, terrific.
尤其是地方报纸，特别需要你们的支持。
Local newspapers in particular need your support.
如果是其他全国性报纸，那也很好。
If that's another national newspaper, that's great too.
如果它是《纽约时报》，我们会用这笔钱派遣记者去寻找事实和背景信息，而这些是你从人工智能那里永远得不到的。
And if it's The New York Times, we'll use that money to send reporters out to find the facts and context that you'll never get from AI.
就这样。
That's it.
不是要你点击任何链接。
Not asking you to click on any link.
只是订阅一家拥有真实记者、进行第一手、基于事实报道的新闻机构。
Just subscribe to a real news organization with real journalists doing firsthand, fact based reporting.
如果你已经这样做了，谢谢。
And if you already do, thank you.
我们在这里谈论的是实质内容。
We're talking here about substance.
让我感到惊讶的一点是，自由主义有一种跨越地域和时间反复出现的风格。
One thing that surprises me is that there is a style to a liberalism that recurs over place and time.
现在可能是时候请出约瑟夫·麦卡锡了。
And it's probably a good time to bring in Joseph McCarthy Mhmm.
他是一位政治家和政治力量，我认为他的影响力比现在人们所记得的要大得多。
Who he's a politician and a political force, I think a much bigger political force and is now remembered.
他因所谓的共产主义猎巫行动而被铭记。
And he's remembered for, you know, communist witch hunting.
他也是民粹主义风格的早期代表，这种风格与特朗普非常契合，并被保守派的精英阶层所接受。
He's also a very early example of a populist style that Trump fits very well into and that gets embraced by elite dimensions of conservatism.
威廉·F·巴克利写了一本书，某种程度上可以说是反反麦卡锡的。
William f Buckley writes a book sort of sort of anti anti McCarthy's way to put it.
好吧。
Like, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
麦卡锡或许走得有点过头了，但反对他的人才是真正的麻烦所在——这是一种非常典型的特朗普辩护方式。
McCarthy maybe goes a bit too far, but the people who oppose him are the real problem, which is a very common form of Donald Trump defense.
跟我讲讲麦卡锡的政治风格，他的反精英主义、民粹主义，以及他是如何将他的非自由主义包装起来的。
Tell me a bit about McCarthy's political style, the anti elitism of it, the populism of it, the the the way he wraps up his illiberalism.
你知道，历史学家在评价麦卡锡主义时，其中一个观点是将其与19世纪的民粹主义相提并论，因为他们看到了你所描述的种种特征——他的反精英主义、他从特定社会环境中崛起，以及在那个时代同时寻找内部和外部敌人，而当时大众运动正受到历史学家、记者和学者的广泛怀疑，因为他们刚从一场战争中走出来，意识到法西斯主义是一种大众运动。
Well, you know, one of the things that became part of the reception of McCarthyism, among historians, was to liken it to nineteenth century populism because they saw very much of what you're describing, the kind of anti elitism, his emergence out of a particular social setting, his finding of enemies internal as well as external, at a time when mass movements were held in a lot of suspicion by historians, journalists, scholars because they had just come out of a war recognizing that fascism was a mass movement.
这并不是一小部分精英或寡头通过政变夺取权力那么简单。
It wasn't simply taking of power coup d'etat on the part of a small elite or oligarchy.
因此，毫不意外的是，如今政治右翼正重新审视麦卡锡，正是因为他们认为他有勇气站出来对抗那些威胁美国价值观和政治体制的人。
And so know McCarthy is now not surprisingly getting a new look by people on the political right precisely because they felt that he had the courage to stand up to those who were threatening American values and American politics.
而他这样做，最终付出了巨大的个人代价。
And he did this, you know, at great, in the end, personal cost.
但我的意思是，约瑟夫·麦卡锡其实融入了一个当时普遍存在的框架，这种现象不仅发生在共和党人中，也发生在民主党人中。
But I mean, you know, Joseph McCarthy fit into a framework in which a lot of this was going on anyway and it was not only going on among Republicans, it was going on among Democrats.
历史学家发现，过去支持民粹主义者的选民，其社会背景其实与支持麦卡锡的选民并不相同。
I mean what historians have found is that actually the people who voted for populists in the past were not the people who voted for McCarthy, at least in terms of their social profiles.
因此，这种说法被推翻了，麦卡锡并不是一种新的19世纪民粹主义。
And so that was sort of debunked and that McCarthy was not a kind of new nineteenth century populism.
他实际上是在吸引一种不同的选民群体。
He was really appealing to a different kind of constituency.
显然是更多本土出生的人，但并非完全是本土出生的人，他们大多是小企业主类型。
Obviously more native born, but not entirely native born, people who were sort of small business types.
我想先就反精英主义这一点稍作停留。
I wanna hold on the anti elitism Okay.
再稍微谈谈他的反制度主义。
And the anti institutionalism of him for a second.
因为有人把麦卡锡作为当下事件的参照时是这么说的：看，他当时在追查共产党人。
Because one way I've heard McCarthy being brought up as a referent to what is happening now is, look, he was on the hunt for communists.
当时美国社会各个层面确实存在共产党人。
There were communists at different layers of of American life.
而他和当时许多保守派人士一样，持有更广泛的观点，认为美国生活中的大型机构已被渗透。
And he also had a broader view, as did many others in conservatism at that time, that the big institutions of American life had been captured.
文化被好莱坞掌控，大学被掌控，甚至政府也可能被掌控了。
And, you know, the culture had been captured in Hollywood, and the universities were captured, and maybe the even the government was captured too.
还有军队。
And the And military.
还有军队。
And military.
而对共产主义者的追查，我现在看到有人将此类比为对支持DEI的人、反犹主义者或觉醒主义者的追查，这成为了一种打破这些机构、利用国家权力震慑它们并迫使它们回归某种一致性的手段。
And the hunt for communists, which I've seen people analogizing now to the hunt for people who believe in DEI or antisemites or wokeness also became a way to break open these institutions, to use the power of the state to cow them, and to force them to come back into some kind of alignment
嗯。
Mhmm.
或者至少停止反对。嗯。
Or at least stop opposing Mhmm.
与麦卡锡所代表的政治倾向及其所捍卫的立场保持一致。
The alignment with what McCarthy represented and the political tendencies that he fought for.
你觉得这种类比有多合理？
How valid do you think that
这个类比成立吗？
analogy is?
你知道，我们必须认识到，从20世纪30年代到40年代，再到50年代，联邦政府的规模急剧扩张。
You know, one of the things we have to recognize is that the federal state grew enormously from the 1930s through the 1940s into the 1950s.
你知道，麦卡锡在某种程度上代表了人们对这种扩张的不安与疑虑，对那些被训练进入这些机构的人，以及这些庞大官僚机构可能带来的影响感到担忧。
You know, think McCarthy was in part representing a certain unease and suspicions about that, about a world of people who were trained into these institutions, what expansive and bureaucratic institutions might involve.
毫无疑问，我认为他将注意力和关切引向了一些在美国并没有深厚历史根基的机构，这些机构远离许多正在经历巨大变革的美国人——无论这种变革发生在大城市还是其他地方。
There's no question I think that he directed attention and concern to institutions that really didn't have a deep history in The United States that were far from the direct reach of many Americans who were themselves experiencing enormous change, whether it had to do in bigger cities.
我的意思是，许多关于住房的斗争，人们总以为直到60年代城市暴动才开始，但实际上早在那之前就已存在住房短缺、人口迁移和人口结构变化，因此我认为他确实吸引了那些试图维护自己所珍视的社区感的人，而他们觉得这种社区感正被逐渐侵蚀。
I mean a lot of these struggles over housing, you know, people have this idea, well it wasn't until the 1960s when the urban uprisings began, but actually it was much earlier as there were housing shortages, there were population demographic migrations, and so I think he did appeal to those who were trying to hold on to a kind of sense of community that they saw in part being overrun.
通过攻击这些机构，并暗示它们不仅远离普通民众，还被那些完全不关心你利益的人渗透——无论你对社会主义、共产主义或左派的理解是什么。
By going after the institutions and suggesting that not only were they far from you but they were being infested by people who didn't have your interest in mind at all, whatever you understood about socialism, communism, or the left.
其中一个
One of
我们现在看到的是，美国社会中的不同机构不得不做出这样的选择。
the things we're seeing now is different institutions in American life having to make this choice.
它们是试图与政府达成协议？
Do they try to make a deal with the administration?
他们是向政府低头，还是选择抗争？
Do they try to bend the knee to the administration, or do they fight?
我的意思是，哈佛刚刚决定要抗争。
I mean, Harvard just decided to fight.
在麦卡锡时代，你会如何讲述这些机构的应对故事？
In the McCarthy era, how would you tell that story of the institutional response?
比如，那个时期是什么时候？
Like, what was the period?
你知道吗，当时他们是否一致顺从，直到某些事情发生改变？
You know, were they lockstep in trying to submit to this and until something changed?
现在能从那段时间学到什么？
What what can be learned from that now?
我认为当时的反应主要是低头顺从。
I think the response was mostly bending the knee.
我认为大学、工作场所和其他机构都迅速试图找出那些可能被视为威胁的人。
I think that universities, workplaces, other institutions were very quick to try to identify people who could be regarded as threats.
而且在大多数情况下，他们被开除了。
And for the most part they were expelled.
人们失去了工作，被列入黑名单，被赶出重要的政治职位，或者无法再谋求职位。
People lost their jobs, they were blacklisted, they were run out of important political positions or they could not seek.
在20世纪40年代末到50年代初，我们劳工历史的关键时期，他们被排除在工会之外，当时像产业工会联合会这样的组织正变得越来越强大。
They were excluded from labor unions at a very critical point in our labor history in the late 1940s early 1950s when organizations like the CIO were increasingly powerful.
因此，我认为在面对看似强大的权力时屈服，并不罕见，这是一个令人担忧的先例。
So I do think that bending the knee, especially in the face of what seems to be significant power, is not uncommon and is a worrisome president.
我们刚才讨论的是政治人物和政治团体，比如麦卡锡、杰克逊、三K党，当人们想到一种非自由主义传统时，他们都完全符合这一范畴。
So we've been talking here about political figures and political groups, McCarthy, Jackson, the Ku Klux Klan, that to the extent people think about an illiberal tradition, they all fit very squarely in it.
你的书的一个观点是，自由主义和非自由主义常常交织在同一批人身上。
One of the points of your book is that liberalism and illiberalism are often braided together in the same people.
在这一时期，我们见证了日裔美国人的拘禁，超过十万人——其中许多人是公民——被逮捕并关押在集中营里。
So around this time, we have Japanese internment, and you have over a 100,000 people, many, many, many of them citizens, rounded up and put in camps.
没有任何正当程序。
No due process.
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他们没有机会通过法院来判定是否真的对国家构成威胁。
No ability to have a court decide if they were actually a threat to the country.
而这是由自由派的英雄富兰克林·罗斯福所实施的。
And this is done by liberal hero, FDR.
你认为是什么导致了这种情况？
How do you think about what leads to that?
我认为自由派面临的一个挑战是，尽管他们可能拥护许多我们视为可贵的理念和关系，但他们仍然致力于维护社会秩序。
I think that one of the challenges that liberals have had is that even though they may embrace a whole variety of ideas and relationships that we may find admirable, that nonetheless I think they are interested in maintaining social order.
在许多人身上，他们依然接受文化等级制度。
That in many of them they still do have an acceptance of cultural hierarchies.
我的意思是，自由派在所谓的麦卡锡主义中扮演了非常重要的角色。
I mean, look, the liberals played a very important role in so called McCarthyism.
他们是领导者，比如阿瑟·施莱辛格和美国民主行动组织的成立，都是为了将自由派与美国社会的左翼隔离开来。
They were the leaders, so Arthur Schlesinger and the establishment of Americans for democratic action and all of this was to try to sort of hive liberals off the left of American society.
不仅如此，他们还谴责左翼是追随者，认为这些人理应受到深度怀疑，因此从大学或其他职位上解雇他们是完全可以接受的，因为他们是邪恶的，是内部敌人。
Not only that, but condemn the left as followers and people who really should be subject to deep suspicion, and it was okay if you fired them, from universities or other positions because they were evil, they were the internal enemies.
我认为自由派并没有做好应对那些开始出现的瓦解的准备，他们逐渐放弃了整个事业。
I do think that liberals were not very well equipped for the sort of unravelings that began to take place and that they kind of begin to abandon the whole project.
我认为另一种解读这种现象的方式是，尽管我不支持日裔拘禁，但我想提出一个问题：那些在国家层面取得成功的自由派，是否自身就包含着你所描述的这种反潮流？这种强大、显著且持久的意识形态派别在美国政治中如此根深蒂固，以至于富兰克林·罗斯福、林登·约翰逊身上带有美国南方的烙印，比尔·克林顿以一种截然不同的方式融合了各种奇特的潮流，而巴拉克·奥巴马的天赋之一，正是能够同时回应白人与黑人的故事、恐惧与焦虑以及政治现实——许多后来被视作令人失望的地方，从另一个角度看，其实是一种多元主义，我坚信，他们的支持者会说，这种多元主义有效地遏制了其他一些潮流。
Another way that I think that same dynamic can be read, and here I'm not supporting Japanese interment, but I do wanna raise this as a question, is it the liberals who are nationally successful often contain some of this countercurrent inside of them, that you are describing such a strong and present and enduring ideological faction in American politics that it isn't gonna be a surprise that FDR, that Lyndon Johnson, contains the American South inside of him, that, you know, Bill Clinton in a very different way, who's sort of a merger of unusual currents, that that Barack Obama, who part of what his genius is is being able to speak to the white end black story and fears and anxieties and politics at the same time, that much of what ends up getting remembered as disappointing about them, I think from a different perspective, has been a pluralism that I think their defenders certainly would say kept some of these other currents in check.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为，你知道，这在一定程度上削弱了对手的权力。
Because, you know, it it sort of drained some of their opponents of of power.
当然，比尔·克林顿的支持者经常对我说：我曾邀请拉姆·伊曼纽尔上过节目。
Definitely, Bill Clinton's defenders often say to me, I had Rahm Emanuel on the show.
他明确说过这一点。
He said this explicitly.
你看。
Look.
正是这个人把犯罪和移民问题从民主党的弱点清单中移除，也处理了福利问题，这才让民主党重新获得全国性的权力。
This is the guy who took crime and immigration off the table as weaknesses and welfare for the Democratic Party, and that's the Democrats came back to national power.
现在回头看，这些妥协显得很糟糕，但如果不妥协，就会输掉这些理念。
And now it's looked back on as a terrible set of compromises, but the alternative was losing to these ideas.
你怎么看待这种张力？
How do you think about that tension?
我认为，把这种现象描述为一种张力很重要。
Well, I think it's important to describe it as a tension.
我认为，许多登上美国政治重要领导岗位的自由派人士确实面临这样的现实：争取职位、应对复杂的选民群体，以及处理我们自身复杂的过去，都是不可避免的。
I think it's certainly the case with many liberals who have ascended to important leadership positions in American political life, that it comes with the terrain of seeking office and dealing with complicated constituencies and our own complicated past.
我的意思是，显然在20世纪60年代，民主党内部一直有需要安抚的南方派系，虽然从今天的角度看可以轻易批评，但他们当时确实这么做了。
I mean obviously people in the Democratic Party through the 1960s had the southern wing of the party that they had to appease, and you can excuse it from today until tomorrow, but they did.
你知道，约翰逊在签署民权法案或投票权法案时曾 famously 说：‘我们现在失去了南方一代人’，这确实是事实。
And, you know, Johnson famously said when he was signing either the civil rights or the voting rights, you know, now we've lost the South for a generation, and that was true.
同样重要的是，我们要认识到，在我们的历史中，大多数政治体制，可以说，都是保守的体制。
It's also important for us to recognize that, you know, across our history, you know, most of the political regimes, so to speak, were regimes that were conservative.
你知道，美国不仅整体上有着暴力的历史，更有着充满政治暴力的历史。
You know, The United States have a very, very, not simply overall violent history, but a politically violent history.
你知道，自由民主与政治暴力并不是分离或并行的。
You know, it's not as if liberal democracy and political violence were separate or parallel.
我的意思是，从一开始它们就是相互关联的，通常有利于那些拥有财富和权力、并希望将美国公众的很大一部分排除在决策权和权威之外的人。
I mean they were interconnected you know from the beginning and usually to the benefit of people with wealth and power and people who wanted to exclude large sections of the American public from, having decision making power and authority.
我认为这开始变得
I think this starts to
把我们带入了更现代的议题。
bring us into something more modern.
特朗普经常提到一项名为‘湿背行动’的移民政策。
Trump often references immigration policy called Operation Wetback.
‘湿背行动’是在总统德怀特·艾森豪威尔任内推行的，而我们现在回看，他被视为温和共和主义的象征，甚至可能是一位自由派共和党人。
Operation Wetback comes under president Dwight Eisenhower, who we now look back on as this icon of moderate republicanism, even maybe a liberal republican.
我们常引用他关于军工复合体的演讲。
We quote his speech about the defense industrial complex.
‘湿背行动’到底是什么？
What was Operation Wetback?
我们需要理解，这与布雷塞罗计划有关，这是一个由政府资助的项目，旨在为大型农业提供劳动力，但不仅限于农业，让移民拥有工作的权利，他们通常在边境往返流动。
Well, know, we need to understand that in relationship to the Bracero program, which was a sort of government sponsored program that was meant to provide labor mostly for big agriculture, but not only for big agriculture, and so that immigrants had the right to work and they usually were moving back and forth across the border.
但到了20世纪50年代，这一计划开始受到攻击，因此‘湿背行动’试图将这些人推回格兰德河对岸，送回墨西哥。
But by the 1950s this was coming under attack and therefore Operation Wetback was an attempt to sort of push that back across the Rio Grande and back into Mexico.
但其核心目的是驱逐这些人，这也反映了美国经济发展政策中一个非常复杂的方面：一方面，它极度依赖众多不同群体的移民；
But the idea was to basically deport people, and it kind of expressed, you know, one of the really complicated aspects of American economic development policy, which is on the one hand, it depended so heavily on so many different groups of immigrants.
另一方面，当时对他们的敌意尤其针对墨西哥人。
And on the other hand, there was hostility to them, especially by that time to those of Mexico.
这让我们看到美国社会中那种强烈的压制倾向，以及构建压制机制的轻易程度。
It sort of gives us an idea of the really, you know, sort of repressive impulses and the ease of building a repressive apparatus.
你知道，德怀特·D.
You know, Dwight D.
艾森豪威尔，当然，与我们现在所处的环境相比，回看过去很容易，但你知道，当沃伦法院在1954年作出布朗案裁决时，他的回应是，任命厄尔·沃伦担任大法官是他一生中最大的错误。
Eisenhower, you know, admittedly it's easy to look back compared to what we're situated with now, But you know, when the Warren Court came down with the Brown decision in 1954, his response was, you know, appointing Earl Warren to the court was the worst mistake he ever made.
他们不得不通过第二次布朗案裁决，来提供某种执行手段。
And they had to go through a second Brown decision to provide some means of enforcement.
但那个时代有一件事是，美国公民也被驱逐出境。
One thing in that era though is you have American citizens being deported.
我对此感兴趣的原因之一，除了如今特朗普的支持者拿它当例子外，还因为它提醒我们：我们曾多次在侵犯人们本应享有的权利的情况下进行驱逐。
And one reason I am interested in it, in addition to the fact that Trump allies use it as an example now, is that it's a reminder that we have done deportations in violations of rights people were assumed to have had many, many, many times before.
我认为这是对的。
I think that's right.
当然，我们知道在红色恐慌时期和第一次世界大战期间，有许多政治激进的移民也被驱逐，他们的权利被极度限制，而他们的驱逐普遍得到了公众的接受。
Certainly, we know that during the time of the Red Scare in the period of World War one that there were lots of immigrants who were also politically radical, who were deported, and whose rights were regarded in very very limited ways, and whose deportation was generally embraced, accepted by the public.
某种程度上，这是因为公民身份和第十四修正案的出现，尽管在许多方面很强大，但如果你将其与1916年墨西哥宪法所列出的工人和女性所享有的整套权利相比，就会发现美国公民身份所伴随的权利究竟有哪些，其实并不那么明确。
In some ways it's because the advent of citizenship and the fourteenth amendment, as strong as it was in many respects, didn't really, you know, if you compare that to the Mexican constitution in 1916 that laid out a whole series of rights that working people had, that women had, and you compare it to a sense of well what are the rights that come with citizenship in The United States?
我担心，正如你可能也担心的那样，正是因为许多权利并未明确确立，而且无论是在法律语言上，还是在公民身份与权利的界定方式上，都可能存在各种漏洞，我们可能正进入一个类似于多布斯案所标志的时期——那些我们曾以为人们理应享有的权利正在被大规模撤回。
I worry as you may worry too that precisely because a lot of those rights are not clearly established and because there could be any one of a variety of loopholes, whether in the language or whether in the way citizenship and rights are conceived, that we may be entering a period, you know, in some ways marked by like the Dobbs decision of the really withdrawal of rights that we had come to believe that people have.
你在这里所暗示的一点，我认为很重要，就是我们似乎在不同时期之间来回切换。
One thing you're gesturing at here, which I think is important, is the way in which we seem to phase in and out of periods.
而且很多时候，即使仅仅十年前，你所处的、即将进入的境况都令人难以想象。
And oftentimes, even from a decade before, what you're in, what you're about to be in feels unimaginable.
因此，当我们谈到帕尔默突袭时，它们在某种意义上促成了
And so when we talked about the Palmer raids, they lead in a sense to the founding of
美国
the
公民自由联盟的成立。
ACLU.
我们在谈论‘湿背行动’，但仅仅过了十多年，林登·约翰逊就废除了《约翰逊-里德法案》，那些种族主义配额至少在那个时期被取消了。
We're talking about Operation Wetback, but it's just over a decade later that LBJ overturns the Johnson Reed Act, and those sort of racist quotas dissolve at least for that period of time.
那么，你如何看待这种周期性的问题呢？
And so how do you think about this question of the cycles of it?
这是一根摆钟吗？一个行动引发了反弹？
Is it a pendulum that one action creates a backlash?
还是说它比这更依赖于偶然性，更不可预测？
Is it much more contingent and unpredictable than that?
我的意思是，你从奥巴马直接过渡到了唐纳德·特朗普。
I mean, you go from Obama to Donald Trump.
对吧？
Right?
有一种情况是，一个时代往往感觉与前一个时代截然不同，甚至几乎完全相反。
There is this way in which one era feels it often feels much more radically different, almost radically opposite to the era that preceded it.
在我看来，我并不是一个会思考钟摆式变化的人。
It seems to me I I I am not somebody who thinks about pendulums.
我不认为历史会重复。
I don't think that history repeats itself.
但我确实认为，在某些时刻，环境会使得各种发展方向成为可能。
But I do think that there are moments when circumstances make possible developments moving in any one of a number of directions.
所以，即使你想想奥巴马和特朗普，也会觉得这似乎顺理成章。
And so, you know, even if you think about Obama and Trump, think it follows perfectly.
奥巴马当选时，人人都在说我们已经进入了一个后种族社会。
You know, Obama gets elected and everybody was talking about how we were now in a post racial society.
可转眼之间，茶党就组织起来了，奥巴马实际上激发出美国社会深层的种族主义情绪，让人们觉得像他这样的黑人不该合法拥有如此权力，于是出现了出生地阴谋论，这其实深深根植于重建时期——当时南方白人虽然承认奴隶制结束了，但让前奴隶获得权力的想法对他们来说依然不可想象。
And then two blinks, you know, the Tea Party is organized and basically Obama draws out a lot of deep racism in American society and senses that a black person like him should not legitimately hold the power he does, and therefore you have a birther movement which really harks back to Reconstruction when, you know, Southern whites recognized that slavery was over but the idea of empowering former slaves was just inconceivable to them.
你有没有注意到一些关于奥巴马穿着非洲服饰之类的描绘？我认为这引出一个有趣的问题，那就是
You realize some of the depictions of Obama in African dress and so on and so forth, I think suggest I mean, I I think, you know, it's an interesting question about
而特朗普则利用出生地阴谋论登上舞台
And Trump rides birtherism to the forefront
共和党内部——他正是凭借这种情绪登上领导地位的，即使这个说法已被揭穿，即使明显这是个谎言，大多数共和党人仍相信这种观点：某些群体掌权会破坏他们认为对美国稳定与安全至关重要的等级秩序。
of the I Republican mean, he found his way into leadership precisely in that even when it was debunked, even when it was absolutely clear that this was a lie nonetheless, most Republicans still believed that it was this idea of the general illegitimacy of certain groups of people holding power and breaking the hierarchies that they thought were essential to stability and security in The United States.
在你的书中，你将大规模监禁的兴起视为另一种体现驱逐与排斥冲动的例子，嗯。
In your book, you frame the rise in era of mass incarceration as another example of the the deportation and expulsion impulse Mhmm.
找到了政策上的表达形式。
Finding policy expression.
这种方式至少在表面上看起来有所不同。
That in a way looks at least facially different.
人们并没有离开这个国家。
People aren't leaving the country.
我的意思是，我们现在可能要把大规模监禁转移到萨尔瓦多的监狱，而不是美国的监狱。
I mean, now we're possibly gonna do mass incarceration in El Salvadoran prisons as opposed to American ones.
但跟我谈谈你在这里所强调的连续性。
But tell me about the the continuities you draw there.
我认为重要的是要认识到，我们长期以来一直有监禁人的历史。
I think that it's important to recognize that first of all, we have a long history of incarcerating people.
从十九世纪初惩教所诞生以来，被监禁的人 disproportionately 是穷人、移民和黑人。
And from the birth of the penitentiary in the early nineteenth century on, you know, the people who were incarcerated, they were incarcerated, were disproportionately poor, disproportionately immigrants, disproportionately black.
我认为，基本上在20世纪60年代大规模城市动荡之后，人们产生了一种想法：与其军事占领大城市，不如寻找其他方式来安抚和压制这些群体。
I do think that basically what happened was after the enormous urban unrest in the 1960s, that there was kind of the sense that well they could militarily occupy big cities or they could find other ways of pacifying and repressing the populations.
我认为，部分情况是，关于犯罪问题失控、有色人种最具威胁性和危险性的共识在两党间达成了，这实际上意味着将他们从社会中驱逐出去，关进机构，至少能对他们进行直接监控和压制。
And I think part of what happens is that you know, there is a bipartisan consensus on crime as a problem that's out of control, people of color as those who are most threatening, most dangerous, and that effectively deporting them from society and putting them in institutions where at least they were under direct surveillance and repressive control.
我们必须再次记住，他们不仅被逐出社区，还被有效排除在政治社会之外，因为他们不仅没有政治权利，就连争取到的那些公民权利——比如起诉权——也要费力争取。
And we have to again remember that what happens is they're not only expelled from communities, but they're effectively expelled from political society because not only don't they have political rights, and they had to fight for whatever civil rights they, you know, do they have a right to sue?
他们有权利挑战监狱内部的权力结构吗？
Do they have a right to challenge the structures of power within penitentiaries?
我担心，很多人会同意将那些因暴力或种族、民族背景而被视为人民真正敌人的公民驱逐出去。
I fear that a lot of people would be okay with expelling citizens who are deemed to be true enemies of the people because of their violence or because of their racial and ethnic background.
我的意思是，特朗普现在已明确提出了这一点。
I mean Trump has raised this explicitly now.
明确地。
Explicitly.
无论法院做什么，他显然在寻求对抗。
And whatever the courts do, he's obviously looking for a confrontation.
他热衷于挑衅，而且他认为基本上他们对此无能为力，这种情况可能确实如此。
He's interested in provocation, and he thinks basically there's nothing much they can do about it, and that may prove to be the case.
所以当你审视这些不同事件时，我们已经讨论过其中一些。
So when you look across these different episodes, we've talked about some of them.
还有其他一些在
There are others in
你的书里。
your book.
在这些驱逐和排斥的时代中，你觉得哪些是共同点？
What feel to you like the commonalities of these eras of deportation and expulsion?
政治体系，或者至少其中的一个派系，是如何达成一致，认为权利已经过度扩张的？
How does the political system or at least a faction in it come together and say, the rights have gone too far.
这个群体已经扩张得太多了。
The community has expanded too much.
你觉得这些时期之间有什么共同点？哪些地方让你觉得是新的？嗯。
What seems to connect the periods and what and and what feels new to you Mhmm.
在其中一些时期，或者在这个时刻？
In in some of them or in this moment?
我认为，人们很容易就会唤起一种‘社群正遭受围攻、受到威胁’的观念。
I do think that what happens is that it's very easy to invoke a notion of communities under siege, being threatened.
这让我想起了那些关于归属感的观念和关系，它们可以如此迅速地被重新塑造——即使在美国成为美国之前，成为社群一员意味着什么，社群拥有哪些排除、驱逐、惩罚的权利，而许多人则拼命不想成为‘他者’。
It reminded me of ideas and relationships that could so quickly be reconfigured about, you know, belonging and what the, even before The United States became The United States, but what it meant to be part of communities, what rights communities had to exclude or to expel, to punish, and who in many cases desperately tried not to be the other.
我们看到的一件事是，一些所谓的移民群体成员支持特朗普，这是一种长期现象的一部分：那些已经获得稳定地位的人——大迁徙时期也是如此，北方的黑人社群对那些从农村迁来的黑人并不太舒服，他们不了解这些人的行事方式，担心他们可能威胁到自己社群的稳定。
One of the things we saw is that, you know, there were members of quote unquote immigrant groups who supported Trump, and this is part of a long term phenomenon whereby those who have arrived in established stability, this is true during the Great Migration too, where Northern black communities were, you know, not all that comfortable with these rural black people who were coming up, didn't really know the ways and were potentially threatening the stability of their own communities.
这种说法很容易被煽动，因为它长期以来一直是讨论的核心部分，而我认为，这正是我们需要抵制并重新构想的。
It's an easy thing to kind of drum up because it has been so much part of the conversation for so long, and I do think that this is exactly what needs to be resisted and reimagined.
在你完成了像这样的著作、掌握了美国历史知识之后，特朗普在你的研究中是否显得是一个更熟悉或更不熟悉的人物？
Is Trump in the work you do after you've done books like this with the knowledge of American history you have, does it make him look to you like a more or less familiar figure?
他是否像某种普遍现象的体现，
Does he feel like a manifestation of something common,
还是显得非常独特？
or does he seem very distinctive?
我认为，让他看起来如此独特和前所未有的一个原因是，如果我们从国家层面来看，毫无疑问，很难找到另一个在登上总统职位后，对人民、对制度、对政治对手如此残忍和贬低的人。但我确实认为，如果了解美国历史上州和地方层面发生过的事情，情况就不同了。
Well, I think one of the things that makes him seem so, quote, distinctive and unprecedented is, you know, if we think about the national level where, you know, there's no question that it would be very difficult to find anybody who has ascended to the presidency and has behaved in the cruel and demeaning, not only to people but the institutions, to his political enemies, But I do think that if one is aware of what has gone on over the course of US history on the state and local levels.
还有乔治·华莱士，在
And George Wallace, in
特别是华莱士，他无疑是一个非常重要的人物，后来成为了全国性人物。
particular Wallace is certainly the case and he's somebody I think who's really important who did become a national figure.
我不知道，如果1972年那颗暗杀的子弹没有让他退出这场他本可能赢得的竞选，事情会如何发展。
And I don't know what would have happened if it wasn't for the assassin's bullet in 1972 which basically pushed him out of a race that he was in the process of maybe winning.
但你想一想，那个以奴隶制和奴役者对人的个人支配为组织基础的世界。
But you know you think about a world that was organized around slavery and the personal domination of people who were enslavers.
你会想到一些学者所称的威权主义飞地，不仅存在于南方，也存在于美国其他地区，这些地方存在着长期延续的权力等级结构，并且得到了许多人的支持，因为他们从中获得了切实的好处。
You think about a variety of what one scholar has called authoritarian enclaves, only in the South but in other parts of The United States, where there were hierarchies of power that were long existing and that were supported by a lot of people because they basically saw benefits that came from it.
我认为，我们必须理解的是，非自由主义以及非自由主义的社群或心态中，有许多内容是令人满足的。
And I think one of the things we have to understand about illiberalism and illiberal communities or sensibilities is that there was a lot in them that was satisfying.
我的意思是，当20世纪20年代加入三K党后来被采访的人们，他们根本无法理解。
I mean when people who were in the Klan in the 1920s were interviewed later, they couldn't understand.
我是说，像印第安纳州这样几乎被三K党全面主导的州，那里的人们都是普通人。
I mean I'm talking about ordinary people like in Indiana which was a state that was pretty much dominated by the Klan.
他们并不认为自己参与了一个极端主义组织。
They didn't see themselves as being involved in an extremist organization.
他们觉得自己参与的是一个强化社区观念、提供娱乐活动、并灌输何为美国人、白人、基督徒身份的组织——他们或许不会如此明确地表达，但至少会说是基督徒。
They saw themselves involved in an organization that was reinforcing community ideas, was providing for recreation, that was embedding notions about what it means to be an American, a white person, Christian, they may not even articulate it that way except for being a Christian.
所以我认为，我们需要理解的一点是，这不仅仅是那些我们能轻易识别出来的愤怒时刻，然后追问‘为什么会发生这种事’。
So I think one of the things we need to understand is that it's not simply those moments of rage that we, you know, can identify and then ask why does that happen.
这是一种生活方式，它以非常平凡的方式持续存在，直到受到威胁时才会爆发。
It's a way of life that can go on in very prosaic ways until they're being threatened, and then they erupt.
但我们必须理解那些塑造日常生活的种种方式，正是这些方式将人们凝聚在一起，赋予他们生活的各种意义。
But we need to understand the day to day lives that are created, that bring people together, that provide them with all sorts of meaning in their lives.
我认为，将非自由主义视为一种重要的潮流和力量场域，这一点至关重要，因为我们往往把自由主义传统所遭受的冲击简单地视为一种反扑，认为这只是愤怒的人在发泄情绪，缺乏实质内容，局势很容易恢复常态。
And I think one of the things that is important about recognizing say illiberalism as an important current and field of force is that we have a tendency of looking at the disruptions of the liberal tradition as simply a backlash, as angry people who are venting their fury, which doesn't really have a lot of substance, and things can go back to normal easily.
我认为这是一种严重的错误。
And I think that that's a serious mistake.
这也触及到一种非常普遍的幻想，即你可以彻底摧毁这种倾向。
It also gets to something that I think has been a very common fantasy, which is that you can destroy this tendency.
对吧？
Right?
也许你以为只要在2016年或2020年大选中击败唐纳德·特朗普，就能做到。
Maybe it's if you beat Donald Trump in the twenty sixteen election or the twenty twenty election.
现在我认为人们不再持有这种观点了，但过去确实有人觉得这种倾向是可以被粉碎或压制的。
Now I think people don't hold this view anymore, but but that it was something that you could crush or you could suppress.
你可以让非自由主义思想中占主导地位的内容在文明社会中变得不可言说。
You can make the things that are dominant in illiberal thought unsayable in polite society.
你可以让它们成为非法或违宪的，并将它们推向边缘。
You can make them illegal or unconstitutional, and that you could sort of push them to the margin.
一旦被推向边缘，它们就再也无法重返主流，最终会逐渐消亡，就此终结。
Having pushed to the margin, they don't really have a way back in, and they'll sort of fade away and wither, and that'll be the end of them.
我认为我们从特朗普身上看到的是，压制可能有效，但一旦失败，就会彻底崩盘。
And I think something we're seeing with with Trump is that suppression can work, but then if it fails, it fails all at once.
结果发现，你试图压制的这种力量，远比你想象的要强大。
And it turns out the thing you were trying to suppress is much stronger than you understood it to be.
但我确实认为，自由主义目前正在经历的一次反思，就是认识到它无法回到过去。
But I do think one of the reckonings that liberalism is going through right now is a recognition that it doesn't go back.
这并不是说，也许妮基·黑利赢了，我们就彻底结束了这个时代。
It's not like maybe Nikki Haley just wins, then we're just done with this whole era.
这不再是像九十年代或更早时期那样，相对温和的共和党与民主党之间的分歧。
That it's not the the sort of the more comfortable Republican Democratic cleavage that was around in, you know, the nineties or the February to people.
现在这是自由主义与非自由主义之间的分裂，它可能有着更深的根源，任何压制的策略都将失效。
It's now this liberal, illiberal cleavage, which probably has much deeper roots, and there's not going to be an approach to suppression that's going to work.
而且，也不可能最终彻底战胜它。
And there's also not gonna be any final victory over it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
在可预见的未来，你只能持续投入这场斗争，直到某种你无法预测的事情以某种你目前无法预料的方式发生改变——而且可能还不是你希望的方式？
You're just in this fight for the foreseeable future till something you cannot predict changes in some way you cannot currently predict and maybe not in a way that you would like?
嗯，你用了‘幻想’这个词，我觉得这词用得非常好，因为在2016年，首先大家觉得他根本不可能赢。
Well, you know, you used the word fantasy, and I think that's a very good one because in 2016, I think there was a sense first of all, that there was a sense that he there was no way he was going to win.
但即使他赢了，人们还是觉得这只是一个非常异常、非常有毒的现象，只要击败了他，这事就结束了。
But even when he won, I think there was a sense that this was a very unusual, very toxic phenomenon that once you defeat him would be defeated.
现在显然我们已经明白，事实并非如此。我记得2017年他刚就职后不久，洛杉矶举行了一场大规模游行，有人举着一块牌子，上面写着：‘我真不敢相信我还在为这破事抗议。’
Now obviously we've learned that this is not the case, and you know I remembered shortly after he was inaugurated in 2017 there was a big demonstration in Los Angeles and someone was carrying a sign which was I can't believe I'm still protesting this shit.
而对这个问题的回答是：你永远都会在为这破事抗议，因为任何事情都没有最终的胜利。
And the answer to that is you're always gonna be protesting this shit because there are no final victories of anything.
但我认为，对我们来说，认识到政治非常不稳定、人们的政治倾向并不容易被归入整齐的类别，这一点也很重要。
But I think it's also important for us to recognize that politics are very volatile, that people's political sensibilities do not fit into very neat boxes.
你知道，当伯尼·桑德斯在2016年参选时，有不少人说伯尼·桑德斯会非常有吸引力，结果他们却投了特朗普，但与此同时，桑德斯也在某些方面触动了他们，让他们觉得意义重大，因为他理解……
You know when Bernie Sanders was running in 2016, there were more than a few people who said that Bernie Sanders would be someone who would be very appealing and that, you know, they ended up voting for Trump, but, you know, somehow or other Sanders also touched them in ways that they found very significant, that he understood what
而且他们本质上都是反体制的候选人。
also they fundamentally anti institutional candidates.
对。
Right.
而且非常……
And And very
他们反体制的方式截然不同，非常不同。
different in the way they're anti institutional Very different.
不。
No.
在某些方面
In some ways
但我觉得我们现在明白，这是一场更根本性的分裂，而当时人们看待它的方式却不同。
But I think we now understand this is a much more fundamental cleavage and we were, then people were looking at it as then.
绝对正确，我认为就是这样。
Absolutely, I think that's right.
但我还觉得，比如说，我在书的结尾举了一个例子，关于十九世纪末德克萨斯东部一个县的运动——当时，一个属于奴隶主群体的人和一个属于被奴役群体的人，因为共同的不满而走到一起，出于机会主义的原因，他们知道如果不结成某种联盟，就不可能赢得地方选举。
But I also feel, you know, I sort of finished the book with an example of this movement in a county in East Texas in the late nineteenth century where, you know, someone who was part of a community of enslavers and someone who was part of a community of enslaved came together for basically opportunistic reasons because they shared grievance with what was going on and they knew they couldn't win local office without forming some kind of coalition.
但他们实际上一点一点地开始行动了。
But they actually began to do it little by little.
他们彼此学到了很多，事实上，在多年后，他们建立了一个跨种族的共和国，在这个共和国里，作为起义者的白人逐渐了解了黑人社区的需求，而黑人社区也得以与大约30%到40%的白人群体互动；即使在十九世纪九十年代，他们仍自称为人民党人，即便全国范围的人民党人失败了，他们依然在地方上获胜。
They learned a lot about each other and in fact over many years they came to establish their own republic in the biracial republic where the white people who were the insurgents learned a lot about the needs of the black community and the black community was able to engage with what was 30 or 40% of the white community, and even then they called themselves populists in the eighteen nineties, and even when the populists nationally lost, they were still winning.
最终，他们被枪杀了。
And, you know, in the end, they were gunned down
是的，这并不是最鼓舞人心的例子，也不是安德鲁·杰克逊的原始案例。
Yeah, it's not the most stirring, it's not the original example that Andrew Jackson.
但我认为，这是一个关于如何建立真正有意义的联盟与政治联系的例证——认识到对所有人都有益的事物。
But I think it's an example of the way in which really meaningful coalitions and political connections are forged, recognizing things that are beneficial to everybody.
让我问问你关于自由主义本身。
Let me ask you about liberalism itself.
我认为在过去十年里，尤其是，自由主义显得非常疲惫和不安。
I would say over the past decade in particular, liberalism has felt very exhausted and very insecure.
它的重大胜利被视作理所当然。
And its great victories are taken for granted.
我的意思是，我们现在似乎又意识到，人们拥有权利、存在正当程序、有可以审查事务的法院，以及这些法院的裁决能被政治体系所倾听，而无需依靠武力强制执行，这实际上是非常了不起的。
I mean, now we're, I think, realizing again that it's actually quite remarkable for people to have rights, for there to be due process, for there to be courts where things can be checked, and for those courts to be listened to by the political system despite the fact that they don't force that judgment at the point of a gun.
而且，你知道，自由主义一直受到来自左翼的批评，他们认为它从未实现足够的目标。
And, you know, liberalism was, I think, sort of beset by critics on the left who felt it never achieved enough.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，巴拉克·奥巴马并没有让我们的社会进入后种族时代，也没有解决不平等问题，更没有解决气候变化。
You know, Barack Obama did not make our society post racial, did not solve inequality, did not solve climate change.
所有这些工作让你对自由主义本身有了什么思考？围绕这一传统的政治复兴会是什么样子？
What is doing all this work made you think about liberalism itself and what a renewed version of politics around that tradition might look like?
我们必须记住的一点是，人们所享有的权利感、所应得的权利，都是经过非常激烈、在某些情况下甚至暴力的斗争才取得的，而我们所谈论的这一时期其实非常短暂。
You know, one of the things we have to remember is that the sense of rights that people can enjoy, the sense of rights that people are entitled to, were products of very, very divisive and very very in some cases violent struggles and that the period of time that we're talking about when this was true is pretty short.
我的书其实想做的一件事，就是我所说的‘去中心化自由主义’。
I mean one of the things I was really trying to do in my book was what I would call de centering liberalism.
正如我所论证的，自由主义传统实际上是20世纪40年代和50年代才被建构出来的，并且以许多非凡的方式延续至今。
The liberal tradition as I try to argue is really something that's kind of invented in the 1940s and 1950s and holds on in many remarkable ways.
但自由主义的一个问题是，它从未很好地应对权力问题。
But part of the problem with liberalism is that it never really dealt very well with the issues of power.
因此，当真正面临压力时，它们要么弃船而逃，要么提出一些注定失败或自相矛盾的计划与政策。
And therefore when push comes to shove they abandon ship or they sort of put together projects and policies that are not going to work or become self contradictory.
如果我们真正追求的是自由主义者至少声称关心的那些目标——一个更加平等的社会，一个在全球、国家和地方层面，每个人无论其社会、经济、种族或族裔背景如何，都能追求有意义生活的世界——如果我们对此是真心实意而非仅停留在口头上，那么我们就必须正视自由主义的不足之处。
If what we're after is some of the things that liberals and liberalism at least say that they're interested in, a more egalitarian society, a world in which globally as well as nationally and locally, where it's possible for people regardless of their social, economic, racial or ethnic background to pursue a life that is meaningful to them, if we're actually interested in that as opposed to rhetorically interested in that, then we have to face up to really what liberalism has been inadequate.
你提到自由主义在某种程度上缺乏远见。
You write about in a sense liberalism's failure to be visionary.
我认为这是对的。
And I think that's true.
那么未来可能会是什么样子呢？
What about what a future could look like?
而你如何到达那里这个问题，与未来可能的样子是相关的。
And and then the question of how you get there is related to what a future could look like.
我经常听到人们做出这样的推论。
I hear people make this move a lot.
自由主义确实有过失败。
Liberalism has had its failures.
它并没有让我们抵达乌托邦，尽管它取得了相当深远的成功。
It has not gotten us to utopia, though it's had quite profound successes.
所以我们需要一种更能直面权力的方案。
So we need something that is better at confronting power.
接下来我想问你一个问题，但我 pretty sure 我知道答案。
And then I will say the question I'll ask you, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to it.
在我们所有国家的历史中，你能指出一个地方吗？在那里，这种替代性的政治已经出现，并且更有效地遏制了右翼自由主义，更有力地推动了人类进步的引擎。
Can you point me in all of the states we have, the history in the different countries, of a place where this alternative politics has emerged and has been better at containing right wing liberalism, has been better at pushing forward the engines of human progress.
在我说我们的政治应该走向那里之前，我更想看到它小规模成功运作的例子。
I'd sort of like to see the small example of it working before I say, well, that's where our politics should go.
这才是我们需要挖掘的东西。
That's what we should excavate.
所以当你这么说时，你指的是什么？
So when you say that, what are you looking towards?
从历史上看，我认为过去曾有过一些重要的时刻，社会运动即使没有完全获胜，或未能像我们所理解的那样获得政治权力，比如废奴主义——它挑战了美国最根深蒂固的权力结构。我认为废奴主义是黑人废奴主义，是那些奴隶们设法推翻了种植园奴隶制，而这一制度曾造就了美国最富有的人和拥有不成比例权力的群体。
Well, historically, I think there have been important moments in the past where social movements have, even if they haven't entirely won, or were able to gain political power as we think about abolitionism, which took on the most intractable power in The United States, and I think about abolitionism as black abolitionism, and about enslaved people who managed to take down a system of plantation slavery that had created the wealthiest people in The United States and people who own disproportionate power.
但现在林肯出现了，
Now you But Lincoln emerges in
你的书里几乎把林肯塑造成一个反派。
your book almost as a villain.
我不认为林肯是个反派。
Well, don't see Lincoln as a villain.
我当时想表达的是，这些运动存在一些局限性。
What I was trying to do there was to talk about some of the limitations.
我不认为把林肯简单地贴上种族主义者的标签是有意义的，因为我觉得这样理解林肯没什么帮助。
And I don't I don't see putting Lincoln, you know, well, that he's just a racist because, you know, I think that's not a useful way of understanding Lincoln.
相反，你会看到一个在非常重要的方面成长和变化的人，但与此同时，他也体现了关于‘国家家庭’是什么、谁应该被包括在内的诸多矛盾。
If anything, you know, you see somebody who grew and changed in very, very significant ways, but at the same time he kind of embodied a lot of the contradictions about what a national family is and who would be included
这里谈到的这种矛盾的体现，我想进一步探讨。
in that getting at here about this embodying of the contradiction.
我在读你的书时经常思考一个问题，这与我自身对‘没有最终胜利’这一认知的挣扎有关。
Something that I was thinking about reading your book a lot, and it relates to my own struggle with the realization that there is no final victory.
如果你理解你所描述的那些非自由主义潮流——你称之为‘力量场’，我很喜欢这个说法——如果你明白这种力量始终存在，政治学家拉里·帕特尔将民众比作一个‘蓄水池’而非‘浪潮’，它始终在那里可供汲取，那么就会更清楚地看到，能够领导这个国家的国家人物，必须体现某些矛盾。
And that if you understand the kinds of politics, illiberal currents that you're writing about, the the field of force, think you called it, which I liked, If you understand it is ever present, the political scientist, Larry Patel, talks about the populace as a reservoir, not a wave, but a reservoir that's always there to tap into, then it becomes more obvious in a way that the national figures who can lead in this country will have to embody some of the contradictions.
那种认为会存在一个纯粹运动的想法是不会实现的。
The idea that you will have a pure movement is not going to happen.
纯粹运动往往失败的原因在于，政治本质上就是关于矛盾的，是要去吸纳这些矛盾，希望以某种方式推动它们更接近正义、公正的结果和愿景，这也是我在这个世界上希望看到的东西。
And the reason why the pure movements tend to fail is that politics is about the contradictions, and it's about absorbing them hopefully in a way that, you know, moves them more towards justice and just outcomes and vision and and and the things that that I would like to see in the world too.
但我认为，这种非自由主义的力量始终存在，而且始终强大。
But I I guess that that sort of movement between this illiberalism is always here and always powerful.
因此，几乎你所看到的任何人，即使他们试图远离这些矛盾，也不得不体现其中的一些。
And so sort of almost anybody you look at has had to embody some of its contradictions even if they're pushing away from it.
然后还有那种政治上的判断：难道就没有一种没有任何这些矛盾的东西，可以作为最终取胜的武器吗？
And then also the sort of political verdict that, well, isn't there something that doesn't have any of these contradictions that we can use as the weapon that will finally win?
我很想知道你是如何解决这个问题的，因为真正长期身处其中、见证美国历史每一个十年都充满强大而顽固的非自由主义力量的人是你，而不是我，而这些力量似乎从来都无法被长期压制。
I'm curious how you resolve that because, like, you're the person, not me, who's been sitting in, like, every single decade of American history is full of a very potent illiberalism that that nobody ever quite seems to be able to push into the backroom for very long.
我认为根本不存在什么纯粹的运动。
I don't think there's any such thing as a pure movement.
正如我一位朋友所说，你想建立一个每个人都必须通过针眼的运动？别想了。
As a friend of mine put it, you know, you want to build a movement where everyone has to fit through the eye of a needle, forget it.
坦白说，大多数社会运动都持续不了多久。
And you know, frankly, you most social movements don't last very long.
但如果你真要建立一个具有重大影响的运动——如果你是认真的，如果你真正关心的是权力、是变革，是利用权力来实现改变，从而吸引大量渴望改变、生活能因此变得更好的人，
But if you're gonna build a movement, which I think about in a large way of consequence, if you're serious and if power is actually what you're interested in and change and using power for the point of change that will appeal to large numbers of people who want change and whose lives can actually be better.
我认为核心问题就是要直面这一点。
I think a central issue is to confront this.
我知道你为什么这么想。
You know, it's that I understand why you think that.
也许我们可以找到一些方法，认识到没有人会彻底改变，你总是要抗议他们的所作所为，因为根本不存在所谓的胜利，即使你支持的一方赢了。
And maybe there are ways that we can move, recognizing that no one's gonna be fully changed and that you're always gonna be protesting their shit because there's no such thing as a victory even if you like your side winning.
将会持续存在斗争，持续需要警惕，持续需要自我批评。
That there's going to be ongoing struggles, ongoing need for vigilance, ongoing need for self criticism.
我们必须找到方法来正视我们的理想、抱负、愿景和乌托邦思想。
And we have to find ways of reckoning our ideals and ambitions and visions and utopianism.
人们不会为了一个他们无法想象的世界而挺身而出，我认为这正是更大事物的基础。
People are not going to put themselves on the line for a world that they can't quite imagine and I think that is a basis for something bigger.
这始终是一个不断重新思考、质疑和改变、保持开放心态的过程。
It's always going to be an ongoing process of rethinking, interrogating, and changing, being open to change.
我认为这是个不错的收尾。
I think that's a good place to end.
这总是我们的最后一个问题。
Always our final question.
你向观众推荐哪三本书？
What are three books you recommend to the audience?
好的。
Okay.
首先，我认为托克维尔的《论美国的民主》是个不错的起点。
Well, first of all, I think Tocqueville's Democracy in America would be a good place to start.
不要把它当作一部经典文本来读，而是把它看作一个外部观察者的作品，他既充满钦佩，又有所保留。
Not going into it thinking of it as the iconic text, but going into it thinking about it as someone who is an observer from the outside looking in and who has both admiration and reservations.
伊丽莎白·欣顿的《从扶贫到禁毒战争》，聚焦于20世纪60年代到70年代初，我认为这本书非常有趣地揭示了反自由主义倾向如何渗透进主要的现代自由主义项目，并为大规模监禁铺平了道路，我从中获益良多。
Elizabeth Hinton's book From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime, which focuses on the 1960s into the early 1970s and is I think a very, very interesting way of understanding how illiberal sensibilities kind of infuse their way into what are major modern liberal projects and paved the way for mass incarceration, which I learned a lot from.
第三本书是劳伦斯·鲍威尔所著的《记忆的困扰：安·利维、大屠杀与戴维·杜克的路易斯安那》。
And the third book is a book by Lawrence Powell called troubled memory, Anne Levy, the holocaust, and David Duke's Louisiana.
这是一个非凡的故事，讲述了一位女性，她是唯一一个完整逃出洛茨隔都的家庭成员，最终定居在新奥尔良。
It's an extraordinary story about a woman who was part of the only whole family to make it out of the Lotz ghetto, and they end up in New Orleans.
当杜克竞选州长时，她在揭露他的纳粹背景、瓦解其权力主张方面发挥了至关重要的作用。
And when Duke runs for governor, she plays an incredibly important role in outing his Nazi past and helping to undermine his claims to power.
因此，它以一个令人鼓舞且讲述得极佳的故事，将大西洋两岸的法西斯主义联系在了一起。
So it kind of links fascism on both sides of the Atlantic with an incredibly inspiring and well told story.
史蒂文·哈恩，非常感谢您。
Steven Hahn, thank you very much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
本集节目由杰克·麦科迪克、安妮·加尔文和伊莱亚斯·伊斯奎思制作。
This episode of show is produced by Jack McCordick, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith.
事实核查由凯特·辛克莱尔、玛丽·玛格·洛克尔和米歇尔·哈里斯负责。
Fact checking by Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris.
我们的高级工程师是杰夫·盖尔德，额外混音由阿曼·萨霍塔和艾萨克·琼斯完成。
Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones.
我们的执行制片人是克莱尔·戈登。
Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.
本节目的制作团队还包括玛丽·卡西翁、罗兰·胡、玛丽娜·金、简·科贝尔和克里斯汀·林。
The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Roland Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobel, and Kristen Lin.
原创音乐由帕特·麦卡斯基尔创作，观众策略由克里斯蒂娜·萨穆尔斯基和香农·巴斯塔负责。
Original music by Pat McCusker, audience strategy by Christina Samuelski, and Shannon Busta.
《纽约时报》观点音频的总监是安妮·罗威·斯特雷瑟。
The director of New York Times opinion audio is Annie Rowe Stresser.
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