包装问题

这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

对食物着迷吗？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food》播客的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革的人士坐下来交谈，这些人真正让美食变得精彩。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.

如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food》播客，每周二更新新鲜内容。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

让我们来看看我厨房垃圾桶里有什么。

Let's have a look inside my kitchen bin.

一块鸡肉的塑料包装膜。

The plastic wrapper from a chicken.

一袋装过玉米饼的袋子。

A bag that contained tortillas.

一包薯片的包装袋。

A crisp packet.

我不认为这些东西会被回收，这让我感到很愧疚。

I don't think any of this will be recycled and I feel bad about that.

我确信，这种场景和感受在世界各地的家庭中都很常见。

I'm sure though this is a familiar scene and feeling in households around the world.

企业正面临来自政府法规和消费者的压力，要求他们使包装更加环保。

And companies are facing pressure from government legislation and consumers to make their packaging more sustainable.

因此，本周在BBC世界服务的《食品链》节目中，由我露丝·亚历山大主持，我们将与一位食品制造商、一家零售商和一位包装设计师对话，探讨他们如何试图解决这一问题。

So this week on the Food Chain from the BBC World Service with me Ruth Alexander, We're speaking to a food manufacturer, a retailer and a packaging designer about how they're trying to solve the problem.

正如您将听到的，这并不容易，而实现有意义变革的关键可能在于我们消费者。

As you'll hear, it's not easy and the key to meaningful change may lie with us consumers.

首先，今天我们的记者杰西卡·克鲁兹走访了巴西——全球最大的塑料生产国之一，询问人们在购物时是否在意产品的包装是否环保。

First today, our reporter Jessica Cruz has been asking people in Brazil, one of the world's biggest plastic producers, if it matters to them when they're out shopping whether a product's packaging is sustainable.

因为我们看到公司确实用心考虑了环境因素，所以这确实会产生影响。

Because we see that the company took care to think about the environment, so it does have an influence.

目前，我会考虑这一点。

Currently, I would think about it.

我会去检查，因为我知道这是值得的。

I would check because I know it's worth it.

但以我目前的经济状况，这还得看我的预算是否允许。

But in my economic circumstances, it would wait on my budget.

材料，是的。

The material, yes.

比如玻璃、塑料，我总是尽量避免购买塑料包装的产品。

Like glass, plastic, I always avoid buying as plastic as possible.

你愿意

Are you willing

愿意为可持续包装支付更多费用吗？

to pay more for sustainable packaging?

愿意。

Yes.

我不住在这里。

I don't live here.

我住在他的棚子里，那里已经有点这样了。

I live in his pen, and it's already a bit like that there.

在大多数东西上，你看到很多玻璃制品。

In most things, you see a lot of more glass.

你看到的塑料少多了。

You see a lot less plastic.

你看到更多纸板制品。

You see more cardboard things.

是的，你确实要支付更多。

And, yes, you do pay more.

我对此毫不怀疑。

I have no doubt about that.

我甚至愿意多花钱。

I even pay more.

我住的地方

Where I

我住的地方有一个回收系统，我总是尽力保持井然有序。

live, we have a recycling system that I always try to keep well organized.

但这让人感到相当难过，尤其是在一个非常开放的地方。

But it makes quite sad, especially in a very open place.

有时在活动结束后，你会看到整个城市到处都是垃圾，包装物遍地都是。

Sometimes after an event or something, you see the whole city full of trash, packaged and dropping.

然后你会有点沮丧，但这件事很难办。

Then you get a little upset, but something that's difficult.

我们很难自己去解决这个问题。

It's kind of out of our hands to try it solve.

圣保罗的购物者。

Shoppers in Sao Paulo.

我们的第一位嘉宾是一位发现问题并决定亲自采取行动的人。

Our first guest is someone who saw the problem and decided to do something about it herself.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我叫里亚·马祖姆达尔·辛哈。

My name is Ria Mazumdar Singhal.

我住在新德里，是EcoWare的联合创始人之一，EcoWare是印度首家可持续包装公司。

I am based out of New Delhi, and I am one of the co founders of EcoWare which is India's first ever sustainable packaging company.

你在德里时萌生了创业的灵感吗？

And were you in Delhi when you came up with your inspiration for the business?

是的，确实如此。

Yes, very much so.

在国外生活过之后，当我丈夫和我搬到这里时，我看到周围到处都是塑料，说实话，这让我很不适应。

Having lived abroad, I kinda looked at all the plastic around us when my husband and I moved here, I was it was not something that I was used to, to be very honest.

所以对我来说，其中不同的一点是我们把所有垃圾都扔进一个垃圾桶，对吧？

So I think one of the things that was different to me was that we threw all our waste in one dustbin, right?

这跟我住在英国、在迪拜长大的经历不一样。

Which is not something that I was used to having lived in The UK and grown up in Dubai.

根本没有垃圾分类。

There was no waste segregation.

我看到到处都缺乏垃圾桶。

I saw the lack of, I guess mans as well everywhere.

我的意思是，街道上到处都是垃圾。

I mean, there was a lot of litter on the streets.

很多人用塑料制品吃饭，无论是喝一杯热茶，还是吃街头小吃。

There was a lot of people just eating out of plastic, whether you were drinking a hot cup of chai or whether you were eating some street food.

即使人们使用纸盘和纸杯，它们也涂有塑料层。

And, you know, even if people were using, paper plates and paper cups, they were also lined with plastic.

所以塑料无处不在，我们周围全是这些东西。

So it was absolutely everywhere and that's what we saw, it was all around us.

那么你的第一步是什么？

So what was your first step?

我的第一步就是直接去那些销售大量一次性塑料制品的批发市场，了解人们在买什么、有什么需求，弄清楚消费者愿意支付的价格——无论是终端消费者还是企业，以及分销商的利润空间，从而判断是否存在这样的市场。

So my first step was literally going into the wholesale markets where a lot of this plastic disposable was sold and understanding what people were buying, what there was demand for, understanding the price points that a consumer was willing to pay, an end consumer was willing to pay, a business was willing to pay, like what margins the distributor operated on and sort of figure out whether a market existed or not.

一开始，我们真的挑了三四种塑料制品，它们卖得非常好，然后我们想：不如我们创造一个更健康的替代品，看看人们会不会买。

And right at the start what we did was literally pick I think three or four products that sold really well in plastic and we thought let's create a healthier alternative and see if people buy it.

我们就是这样开始的，老实说，这更像是一个实验。

And that's really how we started, it's a bit of an experiment, very honestly.

里亚的公公是一位甘蔗农民，因此她能轻松获得甘蔗渣这种废弃物。

Ria's father-in-law is a sugarcane farmer, so she had ready access to bagasse sugarcane waste.

这是天然的，而且妙处在于甘蔗纤维的特性使其能耐受从零下二十度到约一百六十摄氏度的温度范围，因此可以在冰箱、冷冻柜、微波炉和烤箱中使用。

It's natural and the beauty of it is because of the fibrous properties of sugar cane, it sustains a temperature range of -twenty to about 100 fifty-one 60 degrees, so you can use it in the fridge, the freezer, the microwave and the oven.

而且它天然可生物降解，一旦接触土壤，会在九十天内分解为土壤。

And it's naturally biodegradable, so once it comes in contact with soil, it will break down into soil in a period of ninety days.

她设立了一个小型制造厂，只有两台机器和一支由15人组成的团队，将甘蔗渣制成盘子和碗。

She set up a small manufacturing unit, just two machines and a team of 15, to turn the bagasse into plates and bowls.

我想那一年我们拿到的第一个大客户是英联邦运动会。

I think first large client we landed that year was the Commonwealth Games.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这简直太棒了，因为他们有一个明确的指令，要求运动会村必须是绿色环保的。

And it was absolutely phenomenal because they had a mandate that they wanted the Games Village to be green.

他们希望使用可生物降解的产品。

They wanted to use biodegradable products.

这为我们推出EcoWare提供了一个绝佳的平台，也让我们对处理如此大规模的订单有了信心，这种曝光度对我们来说是一个绝佳的起步机会。

And you know it was a great platform to launch EcoWare and it gave us a lot of confidence just to deal with that kind of volume, to have you know that kind of exposure was a great launching platform for us.

如今，里亚扩展了产品线，客户遍布印度各地的餐厅、酒店、咖啡馆，以及直接从她的网站购买的个人用户。

Today, Ria's expanded her range and has customers all over India restaurants, hotels, cafes, as well as people buying direct from her website.

但我很好奇，她怎么能确定她的可生物降解餐具真的在降解呢？

I wondered though, can she be sure her biodegradable tableware is biodegrading?

我想，如果有人把它们随手丢在街上，而那里没有土壤，那它们可能就不会降解。

I suppose if someone's tossing it away on the street where there isn't soil, then it won't necessarily biodegrade then.

所以关键仍然是，你的产品仍然需要被放到正确的地方才能实现生物降解。

So the key is still, with your product, it still needs to be put in the right place for it to biodegrade.

关于这一点，当我们考虑产品的使用寿命终点时，确实思考过各种挑战，我们意识到，实际上根本不存在垃圾分类。

So the thing with this is that when we were thinking of the end of life of product, right, we did think about various challenges with this and we thought, okay, we have no waste segregation really.

我不能指望人们把它们放进单独的垃圾桶之类的地方。

It's not like I can put this, encourage putting this in a separate bin, etc.

如果它们最终被送到垃圾填埋场，它们会不会像塑料一样长久不降解？

And if it were to end up in a landfill, is it going to outlive you like plastic does?

答案是否定的，因为最终它们会接触到土壤并开始分解。

And the answer to that was no because at some point it will come in contact with soil and it will break down.

理想情况是，它们能直接进入某种土壤堆肥坑，但即使没有，它们也不会永远停留在那里。

So the ideal situation is that yes, it goes straight into like a soil pit of some kind but even if it doesn't, it's not going to sit there forever.

甘蔗可能并不完美，但里亚认为，它比她在印度随处可见的塑料更胜一筹。

Sugarcane may not be perfect then, but Ria believes it is an improvement on the plastic she sees widely discarded in India.

那么，你能用什么材料制造出最可持续的包装呢？

So what is the most sustainable material that you can make packaging out of?

我询问了保罗·詹金斯，他是位于英格兰南部的包装创新咨询公司Pack Hub的创始人兼董事总经理。

I asked Paul Jenkins, founder and managing director of the Pack Hub, a packaging innovation consultancy based in the South Of England.

你可能问我了包装领域最难的问题。

You've probably asked me the most difficult question in packaging.

在包装的可持续性方面，存在一定的主观性。

There is a level of subjectivity related to sustainability in packaging.

有多种不同的材料可以使用，比如塑料、铝、玻璃、纸张，每种材料从可持续性的角度来看都有各自的优缺点。

There are various different materials that can be used, so obviously plastic, aluminium, glass, paper and each material will have its own benefits and drawbacks from a sustainability point of view.

因此，你需要明确自己在可持续性方面的目标是什么。

So you need to consider what your objectives are in terms of sustainability.

是为了减少碳足迹吗？

Is it to reduce the carbon footprint?

是为了提高可回收性吗？

Is it to improve recyclability?

还有那些能带来差异的事情。

And things like that that make a difference.

如果你有一个塑料包装的产品，决定换成纸板包装，这 presumably 会更环保，对吧？

If you have a product in plastic packaging and decide to switch to cardboard, presumably that would be more environmentally friendly, would it?

不一定。

Not necessarily.

你需要考虑多个不同因素，比如纸张材料在保护产品方面的表现如何、它的可回收性如何，因为如果你从塑料转向纸张，可能实际上还需要一层塑料衬里来维持这种保护水平，而这种塑料衬里反而可能使纸包装无法回收。

You need to consider a number of different factors in terms of how good the paper material is at preserving the product, how recyclable it is because if you're moving from plastic to paper you may need actually need a plastic lining to maintain that level of preservation and that plastic lining could actually make the paper packaging not recyclable.

所以，简单地建议从塑料转向纸张就一定对环境更好，并没有那么容易。

So it's not quite as easy to suggest moving from plastic to paper is necessarily better for the environment.

我的意思是，如果你使用纸包装，想必 somewhere 有一棵树被砍伐了。

I mean also if you've got paper packaging, presumably there's a tree somewhere that's been chopped down.

这算是环境影响的一部分吗？

Is that part of the environmental impact?

没错，现在市场上的大多数包装都是FSC（森林管理委员会）认证的。

That's right and most packaging on the market now is FSC, Forestry Stewardship Council certified.

这确保了树木的补种速度高于砍伐速度。

So that ensures that trees are replaced at a higher rate than they're being used.

但你说得对，没错。

But you're right, yes.

我们能确定的一件事是，塑料真的是有害的吗？

Is there one thing we can be sure of that plastic is a bad thing?

我必须表示不同意。

I would have to disagree.

塑料是一种高度多功能的材料。

Plastic is a highly versatile material.

它价格低廉，且非常适合其用途。

It's inexpensive and it's fit for purpose.

它能比任何其他材料更长时间地保存产品。

It can preserve products for much longer than any other material.

挑战在于塑料使用寿命结束后的去向。

The challenge is what happens to plastic at the end of its life.

不幸的是，欧洲各地的回收率约为40%，这远远不够。

And unfortunately our recycling rates throughout Europe are around 40% and that just isn't high enough.

因此，太多塑料进入了环境，最终流入海洋。

So too much plastic is entering the environment and eventually into the ocean.

所以真正的挑战在于消费者行为和物流体系，以确保塑料被回收。

So that's what the real challenge is, consumer behavior and logistical systems to ensure that plastic is recycled.

如果你在货架上面临选择，是选塑料瓶还是玻璃瓶，如果你关心可持续性，应该选玻璃瓶吗？

If you've got a choice on the shelf between a plastic bottle and a glass one, should you go for the glass one though, if you're concerned about sustainability?

再次说，听起来我总是在唱反调，但你可以论证塑料瓶对环境更友好，也可以提出相反的论点认为玻璃瓶更好，这涉及不同的因素。

Again, sounding like I'm being contrary all the time, but you can make an argument to say that the plastic bottle is better for the environment and you could also make a counter argument to say the glass bottle and there are different factors.

玻璃是一种非常受消费者欢迎的材料。

So glass is a very consumer friendly material.

消费者认为玻璃是一种环保材料，因为他们已经回收它多年了。

Shoppers see it as an environmentally friendly material because they've been recycling it for years.

这是我们最早开始回收的东西，比如瓶类回收站，但它非常沉重。

It was the first thing we really recycled, bottle banks, but it's very heavy.

生产它需要消耗大量能源，当你考虑到它的重量时，影响的不只是材料本身的使用，还包括运输环节。

It's extremely energy intensive to make and when you think about that weight, it's not just the sheer materials being used, it's for example, in the distribution.

想象一下，一辆大卡车运输沉重的烈酒或香水瓶，而塑料瓶的重量只有其十分之一，这确实对环境有影响。

So you think about a big truck shipping heavy spirit or perfume bottles around and a plastic bottle will be a tenth of the weight, that does have an impact on the environment.

所以当你在货架上看到某种包装的产品宣称自己环保、可持续时，这可能并不完全正确。

So when you see a product in some packaging on the shelf that is boasting that it's sustainable, good for the environment, that may not be actually completely correct.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

当局已经开始关注这个问题，因为我们最近出台了一些关于包装上可做何种声明的法规。

And the authorities are onto that because we've recently had some sort of regulations around what claims you can make on packs.

几年前，你还能在包装上看到‘100%可持续’之类的说法，但现在这些表述已被禁止，企业也因无法科学证实的宣传而被罚款。

A few years ago, you could see on packaging claims like 100% sustainable and those kinds of comments are no longer allowed and businesses have actually been fined for making claims that cannot be substantiated scientifically.

有没有哪些可持续的解决方案让你感到意外，原本以为不会成功，结果却普及了？

Are there any sustainable solutions that have surprised you that you didn't think would take off, but they have?

包装领域的一个发展方向是减量。

One of the packaging areas of development is reduction.

这对品牌和零售商来说是一个有趣的点，因为消费者看不到这一点。

So it's an interesting one for brands and retailers because it's not something that consumers see.

也就是说，让包装更轻、用量更少。

So it's in terms of making packaging lighter and less of it.

例如，我们在美国和英国看到了一些雪碧的例子。

So for example, we've seen some examples of Sprite in The US and The UK.

这是一种软饮料。

That's a soft drink.

所以他们做的就是瓶子上没有标签。

Soft drink, so what they've done is there is no label on the bottle.

它是一个普通的塑料瓶，用来装碳酸软饮料，但不再使用标签——虽然单个标签很轻，但乘以数百万后，就会产生大量通常不可回收的包装废弃物。

So it's a plastic bottle, a conventional plastic bottle that you would buy a carbonated soft drink in but rather than having a label which is quite light but if you multiply that by millions, it's a significant amount of packaging waste which often isn't recyclable.

因此，他们去掉了标签，改用激光蚀刻的方式在瓶身上直接印上必要的品牌信息、成分信息以及包装上必须标注的内容。

So what they've done is they've taken off that label and instead laser etched the necessary branding and sort of, ingredient information and mandatory information you would have on the pack.

包装上的对比度不高，但拿在手里看起来仍然不错。

There isn't much contrast to the pack but it still looks good in the hand.

但品牌管理的挑战在于，这种包装能否在货架上脱颖而出，而你却失去了标签带来的所有色彩和活力。

But the challenge for brand management is will the pack stand out on shelf and you're losing all the color and vibrancy that the label achieved.

因此，从长远来看，尽管这是一次成功的试点，但是否会在更大范围内推广仍有待观察。

So in the longer term, although it was a successful trial, it remains to be seen whether it's rolled out on a larger scale.

保罗·詹金斯。

Paul Jenkins.

您正在收听BBC世界服务的《食品链》。

You're listening to The Food Chain from the BBC World Service.

我是露丝·亚历山大，本周我们将关注包装问题以及企业寻求的解决方案。

I'm Ruth Alexander, and this week we're looking at the packaging problem and the businesses trying to find solutions.

即使你已经选定了要使用的新型材料，你的问题也并未就此结束。

Even when you've chosen which new material you're going to go with, your problems don't stop there.

那么，你必须接受从一开始事情就不会总是完美的。

Then you have to accept that things are not always perfect from the very beginning.

这始终是一个持续改进的过程，但如果你从不尝试，那就永远不会发生。

It is always some kind of work in progress, but if you never try to do it, then it also never happens.

这是来自德国不来梅哈芬的冷冻食品公司Froster的首席执行官费利克斯·阿尔勒。

This is Felix Arles, the chief executive of Froster, a frozen food company based in Bremerhaven, Germany.

在成功将铝托盘替换为纸板包装一种受欢迎的鱼类菜肴，并从香草盒上移除塑料盖后，他和同事们决定着手解决他们最畅销的产品——袋装冷冻餐食。

After the success of swapping out aluminum trays for cardboard for a popular fish dish and removing plastic caps from their herb boxes, he and his colleagues decided to tackle their best selling line, frozen meals in a bag.

他们的第一步是尝试让塑料袋更容易回收。

Their first step was to try to make the plastic bag easier to recycle.

当我们与回收公司交谈时，他们告诉我们，首先，包装必须尽可能轻，因为回收得越少越好。

When we talked to the recycling companies, they told us that, first of all, it has to be as light as possible because the less we recycle, the better.

它必须具有抗性，当然，但也应该是单一材料。

It has to be resistant, of course, but it should also be monomaterial.

换句话说，仅由一种塑料制成。

In other words, made from just one type of plastic.

因为那样我们就无需分离，而分离的成本很高。

Because then we don't have to separate it and the separation costs a lot.

如果我们能做成单材料，那就很好了。

If we can make it a mono material, then it's good.

我们还从他们那里了解到，他们说尽量让它保持白色，因为一旦加入颜色，我们就很难重新利用这种塑料，必须先把颜色去掉。

What we also learned from them is that they said, make it white as much as possible because when you put colors inside, we can't reuse that plastic easily because we have to take the color out.

于是我们意识到这一点，并与市场部门讨论如何设计出一款既美观又完全或大部分为白色的包装。

So we realized and we discussed with our marketing how can we actually make a nice packaging that is totally white or mostly white.

它看起来依然不错，但包装却变得更加环保了。

It still looks good, but is then actually a much more environmental friendly product in packaging.

我想知道市场部门听到你们要从包装上取消颜色时，是怎么反应的？

I wonder how the marketing department were taking this news that you were going to be taking the color out of packaging.

他们对你们说了什么？

Like, what did they say to you?

是的，没错。

Was yeah.

但他们说，那样的话，我们看起来就会像那些廉价的自有品牌公司，它们通常都是那样的。

But they said, well, but then we will look like all these cheap private label companies, which are usually like that.

我们说，好吧，但让我们看看在保持白色基础的前提下，还能用什么有风格的方式让包装看起来更美观。

And we said, okay, but let's look what can be done in a still stylish way that could be an element that still makes it look nice, although the basics are white, let's say.

我相信，真正的创意是在受限的条件下、在框内思考时产生的。

I believe real creation happens when you are thinking inside the box, when you have a lot of restrictions.

最终，他们决定用一张清晰明亮的食物照片和一个更大的品牌标志来提升白色包装的视觉效果。

Eventually, they settled on brightening up the white packaging with a nice clear photo of the food inside and a bigger brand logo.

下一步是完全放弃塑料，改用纸袋，费利克斯说他们一度对此很有信心。

The next step was to move away from plastic altogether and go for paper bags, something Felix said they felt quite confident about for a while.

因为当我们内部进行测试并检查时，一切都很完美。

Because when we did the test internally and we checked it, everything was perfect.

甚至一个月后，仍然完美无缺。

And then even after one month, was still perfect.

所以我们确信，好吧，这个方案可行，就这么做吧。

So we were sure, okay, that works, do it.

然后我们推出了它，但六个月后，当产品上架销售时，我们突然发现这种酱汁渗透了纸袋。

And then we launched it, and then after six months, when the product were in the stores, suddenly we saw that this sauce is coming through the paper.

我们有酱油，甚至甜菜根，它们的颜色非常浓烈，还是会渗透过这种纸。

We have soya sauce or even red beet that is a very strong color, and that comes through this paper still.

但在最初阶段是无法察觉的。

But that was not possible to see in the very beginning.

所以我说，你需要在真实环境中做实际测试。

So that's what I'm saying you need to do the real test in the reality.

你不可能在实验室里测试所有情况。

You can't test everything in the laboratory case.

零售商打电话来说顾客投诉说，你们的包装在漏液，这一定非常令人压力山大吧。

And that must be quite stressful to be rung up by the retailers who have got customers complaining that look, we've got, you know, your packaging is leaking.

我们能看到甜菜根渗出来了。

We can see beetroot coming through.

没错。

Exactly.

而且我们还遇到过包装开口和顶部无法承受的情况，虽然它能完好保持一个月，却无法维持六个月。

And then we also had cases where the opening, the packaging, the ceiling was not holding, but it was perfectly holding for one month, but it was not perfectly holding for six months.

但你该如何测试这一点呢？

But how would you test that?

这对你的品牌声誉来说风险很大，不是吗？

That's quite risky for your brand reputation, isn't it?

是的，确实如此。

It is, yes.

所以我们必须承担这个风险。

So we have to take that risk.

否则，什么都不会改变。

Otherwise, nothing changes.

你知道的。

You know?

尽管公司仍未在其整个冷冻餐产品线中推广使用纸袋。

Although the company still not managed to roll out the paper bags across its entire frozen meals range.

因为我们四年前就宣布过，会在十二个月内完成这一目标。

Because we announced four years ago that we will do that within twelve months.

四年过去了，我们还没有完全改用纸包装。

And after four years, we are still not fully changed to to paperbacks.

所以我们当时承诺过多，有时是为了给自己施加压力，当然也可能给供应商带来了压力。

So we did overpromise, sometimes also to put pressure on ourselves, yeah, and maybe on our suppliers.

但我对此并不反感，因为你知道，当你做一些前人从未做过的事情时，这种情况是可能发生的。

But I'm I don't have a problem with that because, you know, sometimes when you do things which nobody else has done before, then this can happen.

因为如果你等待完美，那你几乎永远不会开始，因为完美是在你行动的过程中产生的。

Because if you wait for perfection, you will basically never start because the perfection happens while you're doing it.

你在学习，而在学习的过程中，但如果你从不开始，那就几乎不可能在实验室环境中完美地完成，因为太多事情是不可预见的。

And you're learning, and then while you're learning, you but if you never start, then it is almost impossible to do it in a laboratory style perfectly because too many things are unexpected and are not predictable simply.

那么，你们这些餐食中，现在有多少百分比使用了纸包装？

And what percentage of your paper, these meals, what percentage are now in paperbacks?

今天，我想说我们大概达到了30%。

Today, I would say we are at maybe 30%.

你原本希望到现在已经能达到100%了吗？

And you'd hoped by now it would be 100%?

是的。

Yes.

您的客户，也就是零售商，对这一点有耐心吗？他们愿意 stocking 这种外观不断变化的产品吗？

Are your customers, the retailers, patient about this and are they, you know, happy to stock what's been a kind of ever changing product in terms of its look.

消费者本身对这些变化以及所需的时间有多大的耐心？

And the consumers themselves, how patient have they been with all these changes and with the time it's taking?

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为客户有时会关注零售商。

Well, I think the customers sometimes I saw the retailers.

他们当然经常会关注价格。

They sometimes they look very much, of course, on the pricing.

这也是他们的职责。

That's also their job.

我理解。

I I do understand.

有时候，他们会说不。

And sometimes, you know, they say, no.

我们还没有准备好支持你，也不愿支付更多。

We are not ready to support you and pay more.

你需要自己承担成本。

You need to take and cover the cost yourself.

费利克斯·阿勒斯，德国。

Felix Alles in Germany.

为了了解零售商面临的定价压力，我采访了马克库·豪塔拉，他经营着位于芬兰赫尔辛基附近杰尔万帕的K City Market超市场。

To find out more about the price pressures for retailers, I've been talking to Markku Hautala, who runs the hypermarket K City Market Jervanpa, not far from Helsinki in Finland.

我首先问他，他的顾客对食品包装有什么看法。

I began by asking him what his customers think about food packaging.

说来有趣的是，你刚问起，我正好有个会议。

And actually, which is funny as you ask, I just have a meeting.

我在食堂见了一些顾客，他们说我们对塑料已经厌倦了，因为我们已经回收得很多了。

I I meet some customers in our cafeteria and they said that we are so fed up with plastic, because it feel like we recycle a lot.

所以现在他们看到我们到处都是塑料。

So now they see that we have plastic everywhere.

我们想购买大量不含塑料的包装。

We want to buy a lot of packaging without the plastic.

那你们打算怎么处理这个问题？

And what are you going to do about that?

塑料真的很难办。

The plastic is really difficult.

我们于2016年推出了寿司。

We introduced the sushi in 2016.

从2017年开始，我们尝试为寿司盘设计一个塑料盖子。

And from 2017, we are trying to create a lid of the plastic in the sushi plate.

当然，问题是我们在以高质量售卖超低价的寿司。

The problem of course is we are selling super cheap sushi with high quality.

所以价格是关键因素。

So the price is key element.

我们不能把包装成本抬得太高，因为利润空间太小。

We can't put the price of the packaging too much up because we don't have the profit there.

但我希望两三个月后，我们能把大部分包装换成纸板。

But I hope that after two, three months from now, we can change most of the packaging to cardboard.

马尔库以前来过这里。

Markku's been here before.

很多人告诉我们，请一定要改用纸板。

So many people told us that please, please change to cardboard.

所以我们这么做了。

And so we did.

我想是在2018年，我们进行了更换。

It was I think it was 2018 and we changed it.

但问题是，产品太差了，寿司经常粘在底部，带回家时容易碎掉。

But the problem is the product was so lousy that every sushi piece stuck to the bottom often and then they break when they go home.

所以我们只坚持了大约两周。

So we only got to do that like two weeks.

太粘了。

It was so sticky.

当你把寿司米饭放在纸板上时，它就会粘住。

And when you put the sushi rice to cardboard, it's stuck in that.

然后你试图把寿司从纸板上拿开时，寿司就碎了。

And then you try to take the sushi away from the cardboard, then the sushi breaks.

人们说：不，不，我们再也不想要这个了。

The people said, no, no, we don't want this anymore.

我们想要像样的寿司。

We want to have like decent sushi.

我们不得不

We have to

把塑料重新用回来？

Bring back the plastic?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们得重新使用塑料。

So we have to bring back the plastic.

但现在有一些创新，使得鞋子不会再粘在纸板上了。

But now there have been like innovations that the shoes don't stick anymore to the cardboard.

我想，就像我之前说的，两三个月内我们就能用上了。

It I think we're gonna have it in like two, three months, as I told you.

你觉得这比塑料更环保吗？

Do you think it's more sustainable than plastic?

要环保得多，是的，是的。

Many times more, yeah, yeah.

这会很好。

It is going to be good.

现在我们谈到了价格，价格也很有竞争力，因为如果价格太高，虽然想法很好，但超市里的选择会很少，因为在欧洲的超市业务中，我们的利润率真的非常低。

And now that now we've been talking about the price, so the price is competitive as well because if the price is too high, it's a nice idea, but there are too few options in a grocery store, because our margins are really small in grocery store business all around Europe.

所以我们没有太多利润空间来使用更昂贵的包装。

So we don't have a lot of margin to put much more higher packaging over there.

所以我们必须始终关注价格。

So we always have to stick for the price.

当你站在商店里，比如在寿司货架旁，看看你销售的其他商品时，我想象着那里有很多塑料包装，很多不可回收的包装。

When you stand in your shop, like, next to the sushi aisle, and then you look at the the rest of what you're selling, I'm imagining there is a lot of plastic packaging, a lot of packaging that isn't recyclable.

当你看到这片不可持续的包装海洋时，你不觉得这只是一个微不足道的改变吗？

You know, when you look at that sea of unsustainable packaging, do you not think this is a very small thing?

也许这甚至显得有点象征性。

Maybe it feels a bit tokenistic even.

实际上，我不这么认为。

Actually, I don't.

实际上，我不这么认为。

Actually, I don't.

因为这一切都关乎你必须采取的每一步小行动。

Because it's all about small steps what you have to do.

从小步骤中才能迈出大步伐。

And from the small steps comes the big steps.

你认为顾客愿意放弃便利，转而选择更环保的包装吗？

Do you think customers are ready to let go of convenience in favor of more sustainable packaging?

你认为他们愿意这样做吗？

Are they willing to do that do you think?

不。

No.

我认为大约有10%的人愿意。

I think about 10% is.

但我认为大多数人还没有准备好。

But I think the most of them are not there yet.

我认为他们愿意改变，也非常喜欢转向环保包装，但前提是必须简单、方便，而且不能影响价格。

I think they are willing to change and they really love to change to sustainable packaging, but it has to be like easy, convenient, and it can't affect the price.

如果确实有影响，也必须是最小程度的影响。

Or if it does, it just has to be a minimum effect.

我认为我们还没有达到那一步，至少在芬兰是这样。

I think we are not going there yet, at least in Finland.

马尔库·豪塔拉。

Markku Hautala.

但根据包装顾问保罗·詹金斯的说法，我们必须改变对一次性包装——无论是否回收——这一概念的看法。

But we're going to have to get there according to packaging consultant Paul Jenkins, changing our mindsets around the very idea of having packaging that's used once and thrown away, recycled or not.

从一次性包装转向可以多次使用的包装。

Moving from single use packaging into something that could be used a number of different times.

使用次数越多，对环境就越有利。

And the more times it's used, the better it is for the environment.

但这需要运营商、零售商和品牌所有者，以及消费者共同做出改变，因为从消费者角度看，这可能带来一定程度的不便，而从品牌所有者和零售商角度看，也会产生成本，使得可重复填充和可重复使用的包装最初缺乏吸引力。

But that requires change from the operators, the retailers and the brand owners, but also from consumers because potentially there is a level of inconvenience from the consumer side and there's a level of cost from the brand owners and retailer side that makes initially refillable and reusable packaging unattractive.

但如果你考虑一个包装被使用二十次、三十次甚至四十次，这肯定比只使用几分钟就被丢弃的一次性包装对环境更有利。

But if you think about a pack being used twenty, thirty, 40 times, that has to be better for the environment than one that is used just the ones potentially for minutes and then thrown away.

我住的地方以前有一家店，卖香料、坚果、面粉和其他谷物，都放在大罐子里，你带着自家的容器去，装满后带回家。

There used to be a shop near where I lived where they sold spices and nuts and flour and other grains in big jars and then you went in with your own containers from home and filled them up, took them away.

还有哪些其他类型的食物可以这样销售？

What other kind of foods could be sold like that?

嗯，各种各样的食品都可以。

Well, a whole range of different foods.

比如零食、谷物、糖果，所有这些产品都可以通过这种方式提供。

So sort of snacks, cereals, confectionery, all sorts of products could be delivered in that way.

其中一个主要挑战是，如果你要进行一次较大的购物，你真的愿意带着20个空容器去商店，然后花二十到二十五分钟把产品装进容器、打印标签并购买吗？

One of the main challenges is if you're going to be doing a reasonably big shop, do you want to be taking 20 empty containers into a store and then spend potentially twenty, twenty five minutes dispensing the product into containers, printing off a label and then buying them?

因此，更好的机会可能是包装已经预先装好，你像购买一次性包装一样购买它们，使用完后将空包装带回进行清洗和重复使用。

So potentially the better opportunity is if the packs are already prefilled, so you buy them as if it was a single use pack and then consume it and then take the empty pack back for it to be cleaned and reused.

除了那些让我们的食品看起来更美观、保存得更好的精美包装外，我们还被灌输了便利性的理念。

So as well as fancy packaging that's made our food look good and kept it well preserved, we've also been sold the notion of convenience.

这正是我们想要的。

That's what we want.

当然。

Absolutely.

你想想电子商务是如何增长的，我们下单后期望当天就能送达，如果要等到第二天，几乎就太晚了，这正是可重复使用和再填充的可持续包装面临的一个挑战——我们一直被灌输‘便利至上’的理念，但实际上这里存在一些权衡。

You think about how e commerce is growing, how we will order something and expect it to be delivered the same day or if it's the next day that's almost too late and that's one of the challenges with perhaps more sustainable packaging in terms of refill and reuse is that we've been force fed the idea that convenience is everything And actually there is a little bit of a payoff here.

如果我们想从环保角度做正确的事，就必须认识到，这样做在时间和精力上会带来一定程度的不便。

And if we are to do the right thing from an environmental point of view, then we need to consider that there is a level of inconvenience in terms of time and effort to do that.

保罗·詹金斯。

Paul Jenkins.

包装设计师里亚·马祖姆达尔·辛哈勒认为，要让可持续包装走向主流，消费者必须发生重大的观念转变。

Packaging designer Ria Mazumdar Singhal agrees that for sustainable options to go mainstream, there'd need to be a major mind shift among us consumers.

我认为，关键在于我们每个人都要做出小小的改变，坚持下去，并且不仅教育自己，还要教育身边的人。

And I think it's about each one of us making that small change, being consistent with it and educating not just ourselves but the people around us.

学校里的孩子们从小就接受这方面的教育，这样他们就不会重蹈我们的覆辙。

The young kids in school are educated about this so that they don't make the same mistakes we have.

然后你就会看到新一代消费者涌现出来，对吧？

Then you see sort of the new wave of consumers come in, right?

就像世界上那些格蕾塔·通贝里一样的人。

Like They the Greta Thunbergs of the world.

他们是我们的孩子。

They're our children.

这些孩子非常有意识，非常互联，他们真正地与有使命感的品牌站在一起。

These kids are very aware, they're very connected and they're really sort of aligning themselves to brands with purpose.

我认为这些终究是小小的抉择，但积少成多。

I think these are small little choices ultimately and it all adds up.

感谢里亚·马祖姆达尔·辛哈以及今天我们所有受访的人。

Ria Mazumdar Singhal, thanks to her and to everyone we spoke to for today's programme.

你在购物时能放弃便利吗？

Could you give up on convenience when you're food shopping?

请通过电子邮件告诉我们：thefoodchainbbc dot co dot uk。

Let us know by emailing thefoodchainbbc dot co dot uk.

我是伊齐·格林菲尔德和比阿特丽斯·皮克普，感谢大家收听，下周再见。

From me and the rest of the team, Izzy Greenfield and Beatrice Pickup, thanks for listening, and join us again next week.

对食物着迷？

Obsessed with food?

热衷于寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food Podcast》的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革前沿的人士坐下来交谈，他们才是真正让美食变得精彩的人。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.

如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food Podcast》，每周二更新新鲜内容。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for The Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.