胡椒的力量

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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

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Obsessed with food?

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我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food》播客的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食方式变革的人坐下来交谈，

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat,

所有真正让美食变得出色的人。

all the people who really make food great.

如果你喜欢

If you love a

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good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

欢迎收听BBC世界服务频道的《食物链》。

Welcome to the Food Chain on BBC World Service.

我是位于巴黎的约翰·劳里森。

I'm John Laurinson in Paris.

很少有什么东西像胡椒那样熟悉。

There are few things as familiar as pepper.

每年人们消耗约七十五万吨胡椒。

People consume about three quarters of a million tons of it every year.

我们把它撒在各种食物上，如果想显得高雅一点，就现磨。

We sprinkle it on everything, grind it if we're feeling classy.

所以令人惊讶的是，我们对胡椒到底是什么知之甚少。

So it's kind of amazing how little we know about What is pepper?

完全不知道。

No idea.

不。

No.

那不是我学过的内容。

That is something I've never studied.

也许它来自一棵树或一种根茎。

Maybe it's from a tree or a root.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

我不知道。

I don't know.

像盐，但是一种不同的版本。

Like salt, but in a different version.

一种矿物质？

A mineral?

一种矿物质。

A mineral.

更糟糕的是，就像我们多年同桌共餐却几乎懒得看一眼的配偶一样，我们对此视而不见。

Worse still, like a spouse we've been sharing the table with for years and who we can barely be bothered to look at, we take it for granted.

我们的祖先一定会感到震惊。

Our forebears would have been astonished.

在中世纪及之后的几个世纪里，胡椒是黑色的黄金。

In the Middle Ages and the centuries that followed, pepper was black gold.

探险家们横跨大洋寻找它，途中意外发现了美洲。

Explorers crossed oceans in search of it, discovering America along the way.

为什么？

Why?

当你加入胡椒时，它能让食材变得更好。

When you add pepper, it makes the ingredient such better.

我们可以说它像一个感叹号一样起作用。

We can say in punctuation like it's an exclamation.

就像一个感叹号。

Like an exclamation mark.

没错，用来描述胡椒的味道。

Exactly, to describe the taste of pepper.

在本周的《食物链》节目中，我们重新发现胡椒这一失落的大陆。

In this week's edition of the food chain, we rediscover the lost continent that is pepper.

走进巴黎东部一家名为保罗·贝雷的小餐馆，一位名叫蒂里耶的厨师正在炉子上搅动着一锅深奶油色、正在冒泡的酱汁。

Walking into the kitchen of the Paul Berre, a bistro or small no nonsense restaurant in the East Of Paris, a cook called Thierry whisks a dark cream colored sauce that's bubbling on the hog.

没人听说过蒂里耶，但他过去二十年来每天制作的这种酱汁却闻名遐迩。

No one's heard of Thierry, but the sauce he's been preparing most days for the last twenty years is famous.

如果你想了解真正让法国料理与众不同的地方，酱汁或许就是关键，而这种酱汁非常受欢迎。

If you're looking for what really sets French cooking apart, sauces are maybe the thing, and this is a very popular one.

这家小餐馆去年一共售出了约21,000份黑胡椒牛排配胡椒酱。

This bistro, a smallish restaurant, remember, served about 21,000 steak au poivre steaks with pepper sauce last year.

来这里的一半顾客都会点这道菜。

Half of the people who come here order it.

这是一种极佳的酱汁，由奶油与雅文邑白兰地烹制而成。

It's a great sauce made of cream deglazed with Armagnac brandy.

但真正特别的是它的胡椒。

But what's really special about it is its pepper.

这种胡椒叫砂拉越黑胡椒，产自马来西亚北部的婆罗洲。

Sarawak black, it's called, a variety of pepper grown in Borneo in the North Of Malaysia.

贝尔特朗·奥布诺是保罗贝爾餐厅的创始人和老板。

Bertrand Obuineau is the founder and owner of the Bistro Paul Bear.

我觉得好的胡椒就像杏仁。

I think that pepper, when it's good, is like almond.

你知道杏仁吗？

You know almond?

知道。

Yeah.

就是糖衣杏仁。

The dragee.

我们卖糖衣杏仁。

You know, we sell the dragee.

啊，是的。

Ah, yeah.

你说你那种...

And you say what you Sort

像是糖杏仁，我想她是这么说的。

of like sugar almonds, I think she said.

你知道吗，当你开始吃它们的时候，就停不下来了。

You know, when you you start to eating them, you can't stop.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得胡椒粒很好吃。

And I think peppercorn is good.

就是那种感觉。

It's like that.

我在这里看到，他们用面包来蘸完酱汁，而且从不忘记这么做。

And I see here at my claims that they they take bread to finish the sauce, and they never forget it.

告诉我们你是怎么做的，配方是什么，如果不是秘密的话。

Tell us how you prepare it, what the recipe is, if it's not a secret.

这非常简单。

It's very easy.

这是我们能做的最容易的选择。

It's the most easiest choice we can do.

所以我们有奶油、胡椒、阿马纳塔克和盐。

So we have cream, we have pepper, we have armamentac, salt.

我们用沙捞越来做中和处理。

We do, how you say, mediate with Sarawak.

我们会

We will

是的，你把它磨得相当细，是的，

Yes, you grind it quite Yes,

没错。

exactly.

我们在煮奶油，这是关键步骤。

We're cooking the cream, and that's the important part of the thing.

胡椒必须在奶油里煮一段时间，我们会把奶油煮上十分钟到十五分钟。

The pepper has to be cooked in the cream for a while, and we boil the cream for quite ten minutes or fifteen minutes.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yes.

之后，我们把马那克加进去。

And after that, we put our maniac in it.

我们用火加热。

We make it on fire.

我不知道该怎么说。

I don't know how you say that.

是的，你们是用火燎一下。

Yes, you flambe it.

是的，我们用火燎一下，好吗？

Yes, we flambe it, okay?

然后，把酱汁淋在肉上。

And after, you put the sauce on the meat.

肉在烹饪前五分钟已经用胡椒在两面预煮过了。

And the meat has been precooked just five minutes before with the pepper on both sides.

你

You

把牛排和胡椒卷起来

roll the steak and pepper

在烹饪之前。

before you cook it.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

胡椒在这道菜里起什么作用？

What does the pepper do in this dish?

它的味道是什么样的？它如何改变这道菜？

What is its taste, and how does it transform the dish?

胡椒是一种东西。

Pepper is a thing.

你可以有成千上万种胡椒，不同种类的胡椒。

You can have thousands of sort of pepper, of different peppers.

对我来说，沙捞越胡椒有两个特点，好吗？

Sarawak pepper has, for me, two qualities, okay?

它味道浓烈但不过于辛辣，而且在口中余味悠长。

It's strong but not too strong, and it's very, very long in mouth after.

你会长时间保留胡椒的风味，而且从不灼烧。

You keep the flavor of pepper very long time, and it never burns.

我讨厌会灼烧的胡椒，但胡椒能带出肉的风味。

I hate pepper who burns, but the pepper pulls the the flavor of of the meat on.

你正在做了一个在空中拉手臂的手势。

You're doing a gesture of your pulling the arm in in the air.

它把所有东西都提起来了。

You it it lifts everything up.

是的。

Yeah.

它释放了那种苦味。

Exhaust it's exhaust the boo.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

带出味道。

Brings out the taste.

你有50%的顾客点的是辣椒牛排。

You got 50% of your customers who who order the the pepper steak.

有多少顾客会给他们的辣椒牛排拍照？

How many of your customers photograph their pepper steak?

50%。

50%.

50%。

50%.

是的。

Yeah.

我总是会拍。

I always do.

我肯定会。

I would I would definitely

但还有一件事我想说，我根本不喜欢这样，我讨厌人们只来点辣椒牛排，别的什么都不点。

But there's also something I I I can say I don't I don't like it all, even I hate how you have people coming, asking just pepper steak and nothing else.

拍照后不吃完就离开。

Doing photography, not finishing and leaving the place.

这真的很令人难过。

And that's very sad.

对我们来说，这非常令人难过。

For us, it's very sad.

这是新一代人的做法，诸如此类。

It's the new generation of and all that.

他们只是想说，我们去过帕尔米勒。

They just want to say, we have been to Palmeir.

我们吃了牛排和炒面。

We ate the steak and chow mein.

可耻。

Disgraceful.

你有没有经历过一种辣椒顿悟？

Did you have a kind of pepper epiphany?

当你发现这种像胡椒一样的声音时，有没有一种恍然大悟的时刻？

Did you have a sort of like a eureka moment when you discovered this sound like pepper?

有。

Yes.

事实上这有点搞笑，因为我们曾在意大利遇到一个做咖啡的疯子，好吧？

In fact it's a bit funny because, in fact, we met a crazy guy in Italy doing coffee, okay?

他真的

He was really

一个超级疯狂的人，好吧？

a crazy, crazy guy, okay?

是疯狂的好，还是疯狂的，不，

Crazy good or crazy, No,

疯狂的好。

crazy good.

是的，疯狂的好。

Yes, crazy good.

这位男士是我通过巴黎一位开餐厅的朋友介绍认识的。

And this guy was I was introduced by a friend in Paris who had a restaurant.

当我请他为我提供咖啡时，他说：‘我不能这样给你提供咖啡。’

And when I him to provide me coffee, he said, I can't provide you coffee like that.

你必须来意大利。

You have to come in Italy.

你必须亲自尝尝我的咖啡。

You have to taste my coffee.

我得向你展示怎么做。

I have to show you how you do it.

之后，也许你就会喝我的咖啡了，好吗？

And after, perhaps, you will have my coffee, okay?

今天，我们在巴黎有15个人来喝这种咖啡。

Today, we are 15 in Paris to have this coffee.

这简直不可思议。

It's just incredible.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好吗？

Okay?

当我到那里时，他告诉我，你知道，我女儿是胡椒专家，她开了一家小公司，专门进口胡椒。

And when I was there, he he told me, you know, my my daughter is a specialist of pepper, and she has a small company, and she imports pepper.

我们就是这样认识他的。

That's how we discover him.

我们是否应该

Should we think

对胡椒有不同的看法吗？

differently about pepper, do think?

我们应该以不同的方式使用它吗？

Should we use it differently?

我们应该以不同的方式看待它吗？

Should we think about it differently?

你知道，这有点像咖啡。

You know, it's a bit like like the coffee.

在法国，咖啡有五万个不同的地方供应，但味道并不好。

You have coffee in France in 50,000 different places, and it's not very good.

明白吗？

Okay?

如果你没选对产品，就做不出好菜。

If you don't choose the right product, you don't do a good dish.

同样的道理。

The same thing.

在巴黎老歌剧院附近的一条街上，我找到一家香料店，我敢肯定他们的产品很好。

In a road near the old Paris Opera House, I find a spice shop which has, I'm pretty sure, good product.

这家店叫Epise Rolanger，几年前由一位名叫奥利维耶·罗朗热的厨师创立，他曾获得三颗米其林星，以擅长使用香料而闻名。

Epise Rolanger, it's called, set up some years ago by a chef called Olivier Rolanger, who achieved three Michelin stars and was known for his use of spices.

现在他的女儿玛蒂尔德经营着这家公司。

His daughter, Matilde, now runs the company.

她很早就无可争议地证明了自己是合格的继承人，因为当其他所有法国小女孩都在酸奶里加糖时，她却加了胡椒。

She had proved early on and beyond all reasonable doubt that she was a worthy successor because while all the other little French girls put sugar in their yogurt, she put pepper.

在她店铺的后部，她正准备让我品尝一下胡椒。

At the back of her shop, she gets ready to give me a pepper taster.

实际上，胡椒研磨器是由罗马人发明的。

The pepper mill was invented by a Roman actually.

不。

No.

因为胡椒太珍贵了，不能浪费太多。

Because it was so precious so not to use too much of it.

事实上，他们设计了胡椒研磨器。

They designed the pepper mill in fact.

她的研磨器看起来更像咖啡研磨机，而不是你通常见到的胡椒研磨器。

Hers looks more like a coffee grinder than the pepper grinders you'd usually see.

她将胡椒粗磨，这能放大风味，使其更加出人意料。

She grinds it up coarsely, which magnifies the taste, making it even more surprising.

然后，她将胡椒粉撒在几勺她摆好的淡黄色酸奶上，就像她11岁时那样。

And then she sprinkles it on some dollops of romage blonde yogurt that she's laid out on plates like she did when she was 11.

她说，这是品尝胡椒的最佳方式。

It is, she says, the best way to taste pepper.

酸奶味道温和中性，能减轻一些辛辣和刺激感。

Yogurt's good and neutral and takes some of the sting, some of the heat off.

我选择了来自世界各地的不同胡椒。

I've choose different pepper from the world.

首先，我们要品尝印度胡椒，因为黑胡椒原产于印度。

First, we are going to taste Indian pepper because black pepper is native to India.

然后，我们将前往富国岛，这是属于越南的岛屿。

Then we are going to move to Phu Kok Island, the island belonging to Vietnam.

最后，我们以柬埔寨的胡椒收尾。

And then we are finished with Cambodia.

胡椒是藤本植物的果实。

Pepper are fruits of a vine.

好吧？

Okay?

这种藤蔓需要两棵高大的树攀爬：银橡树、波罗蜜树和橡胶树。

And this vine needs two tall trees to climb: silver oak, jackfruit, rubber tree.

因此，藤蔓可以长到十米高。

So the vine could grow at 10 meters high.

哇。

Wow.

然后你需要梯子来采摘胡椒。

And then you need a ladder to pluck the pepper.

我试过，超过五米就头晕目眩，真的。

I have tried and it's had the vertigo above five meters, really.

所以你要采摘胡椒，必须去掉

So you pluck the pepper, you have to remove

枝条,

the branch,

然后你把谷粒放在阳光下晾干。

then you dry the grain in the sun.

长在胡椒树上的果实最初是绿色且光滑的。

The grain originally on the pepper tree are green and smooth.

经过两天的晾晒后，它们会变黑并出现皱纹，这就是我们得到的胡椒。

So after two days of drying, they become black and with wrinkle and you obtain the pepper.

相比用烤箱烘干，阳光晾晒的胡椒更好，因为香气的释放更缓慢，能获得更复杂的芳香。

It's better to have sun dried pepper instead of drying them in oven because the development of aroma is slower and you get more complex aromatic.

所以你要闻一闻所有的胡椒。

So you smell it all.

我们面前的第一种叫做尼拉蒙迪。

So the first one we are facing is called Nila Mundi.

我们位于印度南部、喀拉拉邦北部，在我的亚拉拉姆语中，尼拉蒙迪意为蓝色谷粒。

So we are in South Of India, North Of Kerala and Nila Mundi in my Yalalam language mean blue grain.

有些谷粒黑得几乎发蓝。

Some of the grain are so black that it's almost blue.

这是一种特殊品种，只在这里能找到，因为它原产于此，是古老品种，正是这种品种，瓦斯科·达·伽马在十五世纪抵达印度时曾见过。

It's a special variety that you only find in this place because it's native, it's an old variety and this is a variety that Vasco da Gama have seen when he reached India in the fifteenth century.

所以我把它们沥干，现在你将闻到研磨后的气味。

So I drain this and now you are going to smell it when it's ground.

更多青草味。

Much more vegetal.

你的嗅觉和味觉真敏锐，因为这正是它的特点。

You've got a very good nose and taste because this is exactly that.

这是一种新鲜的青草味。

It's it's a fresh grass.

这确实是极具优雅和矿物感的胡椒。

It's really pepper with lot of elegance and minerality.

这是一种古老而稀有的品种，很脆弱，但味道极其优雅。

It's an old variety, very rare, it's fragile, but the taste, it's so elegant.

现在你将品尝它配白生菜。

So now you are going to taste it on the frogmache blanc.

这非常非常不寻常。

It's very, very unusual.

抱歉，我可以……

Can can I sorry.

我可以再闻一下吗？

Can I have another sniff?

它有很明显的桉树香，清新而青翠。

It's very eucalyptus, fresh in a green way.

现在你要品尝它了。

And you are now you going to taste it.

这并不是一种很辛辣的胡椒。

So it's not a very pudgent pepper.

然而，相当明显。

Nevertheless, quite.

一开始非常细腻，然后你会感受到一种奇特的余味。

It's very delicate at the beginning, and then you have the strange after.

我一开始其实没尝到多少味道，然后它就绽放了，对吧？

I didn't actually taste very much at the beginning, and then it flowers, wasn't it?

这是一种非常适合清淡蔬菜的稀有胡椒。

It's very nice rare pepper for delicate vegetables.

青豆、芦笋。

Green peas, asparagus.

这是我最喜欢的喀拉拉邦胡椒之一，尼拉蒙迪。

It's one of my favorite pepper in Kerala, Nila Mundi.

不过，正如玛蒂尔德开始说的，胡椒的不同颜色并不对应不同的品种，而是反映了胡椒籽的成熟度以及人们对其的处理方式。

The different colors of pepper though, as Mathilde started to say, do not correspond to the different varieties, but to the maturity of the peppercorns and what people do to them.

它们在年轻时是绿色的，成熟并干燥后变成黑色，非常成熟时则是红色的。

They're green when they're young, black when they're mature and dried, red when they're very mature.

灰胡椒是一种工业产物，而非天然产物，被磨成细粉。

Gray pepper is an industrial creation, not a botanical one, ground to a fine powder.

玛蒂尔德说，它就是灰色的粉尘。

It is, says Matilde, gray dust.

她不太喜欢那种。

She's not very keen on that one.

另一方面，白胡椒。

White pepper on the other hand.

白胡椒也是黑胡椒的同一个品种。

So white pepper is also a pepper negro variety, like black pepper.

只是你把果实的外皮去掉。

Just you remove the skin of the fruit.

你把它放进袋子，然后把袋子和胡椒一起泡在水里，泡一周。

You put it in bag and you soak the bag and the pepper in water during one week.

每两天换一次水。

You change the water every two days.

之后，你用手搓揉胡椒。

And then after, with your hand, you rub the pepper.

通过这样，你就能去掉外皮。

And thanks to that, you will remove the skin.

所以当你看到白胡椒时，它是同一种植物，但完全光滑，呈白色光滑的颗粒。

So when you see a white pepper, the same plant, but it's completely smooth, white smooth grain.

你再也看不到表皮了。

You don't have anymore the skin.

我在玛蒂尔德的店里花了愉快的一小时品尝各种胡椒。

I spend a happy hour tasting different varieties of pepper in Mathilde's shop.

各种味道的组合令人耳目一新。

The range of tastes is a bit of a revelation.

来自越南的白Pho Kok胡椒，竟然带有淡淡的帕尔马干酪奶酪味。

The white pho kok from Vietnam is slightly Parmesan cheesy, incredibly enough.

有一种来自柬埔寨的果香红色卡姆波特胡椒，还有玛蒂尔德父亲调制的一种混合胡椒，带有花香和类似女性香水的深沉麝香基调。

There's a fruity red camphot pepper from Cambodia and a mix created by Mathilde's father that has floral notes and a deep musky base like a perfume a woman might wear.

Peppers Eye样品的每一种味道都强烈而鲜明。

The Peppers Eye sample all have strong and very definite tastes then.

但奇怪的是，她说，它们并不会掩盖你所吃食物的原味。

But curiously, she says, they don't mask the taste of what you're eating.

它会带来一种刺激感并改变风味，但你仍能品尝到各种食材的原味。

It will give a kick and transform it, but you will still have the savour of the different ingredients.

它不会掩盖其他食材的味道，而是将它们推向风味的催化剂。

It will not disguise the other ingredients, but it will push them to flavour catalyst.

我们可以说，它就像标点符号中的感叹号。

We can say in punctuation like it's an exclamation.

就像一个感叹号。

It's like an exclamation mark.

没错。

Exactly.

用来描述胡椒的味道。

To describe the taste of pepper.

有没有什么食物？

Are there foods?

有没有什么菜肴是你特别喜欢的，因为它们能充分凸显胡椒的特质？

Are there dishes you particularly like because they really bring out the qualities of the pepper?

凝乳配橄榄油。

Cottage cheese with olive oil.

我认为这是品尝和欣赏胡椒的好方法。

I think it's very good way to taste and appreciate pepper.

牡蛎也是。

Oyster also.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

非常好，因为你将印度的卡里蒙达黑胡椒与海洋的咸味结合在一起。

Very nice because you have the combination of the, for example, the black pepper, karimunda black pepper from India with the saltiness of the sea.

这真是太棒了。

So this is beautiful.

但即使是蔬菜，比如新鲜豌豆，只加一点胡椒和少许黄油，也会非常美味。

But even vegetables like fresh peas or with only some pepper and a slight bit of butter, you've got something great, in fact.

甚至早上吃鸡蛋时也可以这样吃。

Even on eggs, you do in the morning.

香料的问题，黑胡椒是其中一部分，它能改变你的烹饪方式。

The thing with the spices, and black pepper are part of it, it's like you can change the way you cook.

因此，你可以用黑胡椒减少盐和脂肪的使用，因为它味道鲜美。

So you can reduce salt and fat with black pepper because it's tasty.

胡椒的历史是怎样的？

What's the history of pepper?

黑胡椒原产于印度，具体是印度南部的马拉巴尔海岸。

Black pepper is native to India, but South Of India, Malabar Coast.

古希腊人直接从印度购买胡椒。

And the ancient Greeks bought pepper directly from India.

他们知道通往印度的海上航线，并从印度商人手中购买胡椒，而希腊人非常喜爱胡椒。

They knew the route, the maritime route, to reach India, and they bought it from Indian merchants, and the Greeks adore pepper.

因此，人们对黑胡椒有着真正的痴迷。

So there was a real fascination regarding black pepper.

之后，罗马人也像希腊人一样做了同样的事。

And then after, the Roman also did the same thing as the Greek.

他们直接从印度商人那里购买。

They bought directly from the Indian merchants.

但后来，由于罗马帝国的衰落，这种贸易停止了。

But then, because it was the end of the Roman Empire, they stopped.

在阿拉伯和奥斯曼帝国长期统治该地区期间，威尼斯是阿拉伯商人向欧洲人出售印度胡椒的地方。

During the centuries long domination of the Arabian, then Ottoman empires over the region, Venice was the place where Arab merchants sold Indian pepper to Europeans.

这座意大利城市因胡椒而变得富裕，拥有最精美的建筑和艺术。

The Italian city became rich, full of the finest architecture and the finest art largely because of pepper.

在十三、十四、十五世纪，欧洲人为了胡椒和其他香料支付了巨额资金。

Europeans were in the thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth centuries paying huge sums of money to merchants for pepper and other spices.

自希腊和罗马时代被遗忘以来，他们已失去了航行到印度的能力。

Since the forgotten times of Greece and Rome, they'd lost the ability to navigate to India.

因此，为了再次直接从印度人手中购买胡椒，摆脱众多昂贵的中间商，他们开始探索新航路。

So in order to buy pepper directly from the Indians once more and cut out the numerous and expensive middlemen, they began exploring.

克里斯托弗·哥伦布在1492年试图抵达印度，但他很失望，因为他寻找的是黑胡椒。

Christopher Columbus was trying to reach India in 1492, but he was disappointed because he was looking for the black pepper.

当他到达美洲时，他发现了整株辣椒，但没有找到黑胡椒。

And when he reached America, he found whole spice chili, but not the black pepper.

但在1498年，一位名叫瓦斯科·达·伽马的葡萄牙航海家终于抵达了印度。

But in 1498, a Portuguese navigator called Vasco da Gama reached India finally.

在那里，他找到了黑胡椒。

And here, he finds the black pepper.

因此，在葡萄牙人控制了黑胡椒贸易后，英国人和荷兰人相继到来；荷兰人将胡椒带到印度尼西亚，进行更集中的种植。

So after the Portuguese had the control on the black pepper trade, And then after the English arrived and also the Dutch, and the Dutch, what they do is they take the pepper, bring it to Indonesia to cultivate it more intensively.

但再次看到这个故事，我们发现这并非为了黄金，而只是为了胡椒。

But again, we see with all this story, it was not about gold, it was only about pepper.

欧洲人进行的所有这些大规模远征，目的只是为了获取黑胡椒。

All these big expeditions from European people, it was only to get the black pepper.

对我们来说，令人震惊的是，这些对世界历史如此重要、庞大而危险、耗时漫长的远征，竟然是由胡椒驱动的。

It seems astounding to us that all of these huge, risky, lengthy expeditions that have been so important in the history of the world, that this should have been motivated by pepper.

欧洲人究竟在胡椒身上看到了什么，使它如此珍贵、如此诱人？

What was it that Europeans saw in pepper that made it so valuable, that made it so desirable?

我认为这是因为味道，当你加入胡椒时，会让食材变得更好吃。

I think it's a taste because when you add pepper, it makes the ingredient such better.

所以他们一直在寻找这种味道。

So they were looking for that.

它把平淡的食物变成了令人兴奋的美食。

It transformed bland food into exciting food.

没错。

Exactly.

他们愿意用黄金来换取它。

And they were ready to pay gold for that.

您正在收听BBC世界服务的《美食链》节目。

You're listening to The Food Chain on the BBC World Service.

对食物着迷吗？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food Podcast》的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革的人坐下来交谈，

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat,

所有真正让美食变得出色的人。

All the people who really make food great.

如果你喜欢

If you love a

一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food Podcast》。

good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify.

每周二更新新鲜剧集。

Serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

我是约翰·劳伦森。

I'm John Lauransen.

本周我们将了解胡椒。

This week we're learning about pepper.

想象一下你自己在印度的一处胡椒农场。

Imagine yourself on a pepper farm in India.

这是位于印度南部喀拉拉邦的汤米·马修家族农场，他是公平贸易联盟喀拉拉邦的创始人，致力于为传统小农户争取更好的待遇。

The family farm in the southern Indian state of Kerala of Tommy Matthew, the founder of Fair Trade Alliance Kerala, which seeks to get a better deal for traditional smallholder farmers.

如今，世界上大部分黑胡椒产自越南、巴西和印度尼西亚。

Now most of the world's black pepper is grown in Vietnam, Brazil, and Indonesia.

但在这里，马拉巴尔海岸郁郁葱葱的热带丛林中，曾是世界上唯一能找到胡椒的地方。

But here, in the lush tropical jungle of the Malabar Coast, was once the only place in the world you'd find it.

我请汤米·马修描述一下，如果我们漫步在他的丛林农场中会看到什么。

I asked Tommy Matthew to describe what we'd see if we walked through his jungle farm.

我们有咖啡。

We have coffee.

我们有可可。

We have cocoa.

我们有椰子。

We have coconut.

我们当然还有大量的菠萝蜜和芒果，各种果树，以及多种肉桂、丁香和豆蔻。

We have, of course, lots of jackfruit and mangoes, fruit trees, a host of cinnamon, clove, nutmeg.

我们还种了一些槟榔，也就是 beetle nuts，大约有十种块茎、香蕉，当然还有很多。

We have a bit of arachnut, which is beetle nuts, about 10 varieties of tubers, bananas, of course, aplenty.

攀爬在其他树木的树干和枝条上，有着宽大的绿叶和一串串胡椒果实，这是一种极其多样的胡椒树。

And climbing high on the trunks and branches of other trees with their wide green leaves and their bunches of peppercorn fruit, an extraordinary variety of pepper trees.

在胡椒还是野生、人们采摘而非种植胡椒的时候，这里看起来也不会有什么不同。

It wouldn't have looked very different back when pepper grew wild and people gathered pepper rather than cultivated it.

你们种植的胡椒品种中，有没有哪一个是你特别喜欢、特别自豪的？

Is there a pepper variety that you grow that you particularly like, that you're particularly proud of?

卡里蒙达是我特别喜欢的一个品种。

Well, carimunda is one variety that I really like.

卡里蒙达比其他品种更辛辣。

Carimunda is much more pungent compared to the other varieties.

你会立刻在舌头上感受到。

You would feel it on your tongue straight.

当我们让客人品尝新鲜的卡里蒙达时，人们最常识别出的味道是生芒果的味道，这种味道在卡里蒙达胡椒中非常明显。

There's also when we had fresh caramunda for people to taste, one of the most important taste that people recognized was raw mango, tender raw mango taste coming in caramunda pepper.

对于汤米·马修这样的农民来说，这正是巨大的挑战：识别不同胡椒品种的非凡风味，并以此进行营销。

For farmers like Tommy Matthew, this is the great challenge, recognizing the extraordinary tastes of different varieties of pepper and marketing them as such.

直到最近，买家对胡椒品种并不太在意，因此农民们将所有品种混在一起，个体风味因此丧失。

Until recently, buyers haven't much cared about pepper varieties, so the farmers bulked them all together and the individual tastes were lost.

与此同时，许多老品种常被政府科学家培育的杂交品种所取代。

At the same time, old varieties were often replaced by hybrid ones developed by government scientists.

农民们一直种植着非常具体的胡椒品种。

Farmers always had very specific varieties of pepper.

我们有卡里蒙达，这种品种非常普遍。

We had karimunda, which was very common.

我们有尼兰蒙迪，这种品种不那么常见，但广泛可见。

We had Neelamundi, which was not so common but widely seen.

我们有乌迪兰。

We had Uddiran.

我们有伊鲁马尼安。

We had Irumanian.

我们有尼兰班。

We had Neelamban.

曾经种植过25到30种不同的胡椒品种。

25 to 30 different varieties of pepper that were grown.

但在过去三四十年里，农业研究接管了一切，农田里推广的都是杂交胡椒品种，这些品种承诺更高的产量、更好的抗虫性，以及一系列其他优势。

Except that in the last thirty, forty years, what happened was agricultural research took over, and the farmlands were propagated with hybrid varieties of pepper, Basically promising, you know, higher yield and better resistance to pests and a host of other claims that came with it.

很快我们发现，原本作为马拉巴尔胡椒的特色已经从市场上消失了，我们只剩下一种普通的印度胡椒。

And soon we found that what even distinguished itself as Malabar pepper was lost to the market and we only had a general Indian pepper.

不久之后，就连这种普通印度胡椒也开始在市场上消失，因为越南或斯里兰卡的胡椒开始与印度胡椒混杂在一起。

And soon even that began to be lost on the market because we had pepper that used to come from Vietnam or Sri Lanka getting mixed with Indian pepper.

但由于这些胡椒是从印度出口到世界其他地区的，它们仍自称是印度胡椒。

And still because it was exported from India to other parts of the world, it claimed itself to be Indian pepper.

因此，我们失去了胡椒的任何独特性，只剩下一种通用的命名方式来描述我们的胡椒。

So we lost any distinctiveness of the pepper, and we only had just one common nomenclature to describe our pepper.

不过，这种状况正在改变，托米·马修表示，这在一定程度上要归功于奥利维耶·霍朗格等进口商。

This is changing, though, thanks in part, says Tommy Matthew, to importers like Olivier Horaange.

当像奥利维耶这样的人前来寻找特定品种的胡椒时，我们才猛然意识到自己拥有这样的传统。

We were sort of rudely awakened to this heritage that we have when somebody like Olivier basically came to say, I'm looking for specific pepper varieties.

我不是在找印度胡椒。

I'm not looking for Indian pepper.

我甚至不是在找马拉巴尔胡椒。

I'm not even looking for Malabar pepper.

我真正寻找的是那些我能发现或可能发现的不同风味特征，于是开始走访我们的农场，识别胡椒品种，进行风味分析，然后尝试将其与其他文化及市场上的产品进行匹配。

I'm really looking for the different taste profiles that I find or is possible to find and started walking our farms, started identifying pepper varieties, taste profiling them, and then trying to match it with other cultures and what is on offer.

我至今仍记得，他曾写道，我们生产的卡里蒙达胡椒与法国一种特定的农家奶酪，以及来自特定年份的葡萄酒搭配在一起，以这种方式组合，为顾客提供独特的味觉体验。

I still remember that he wrote about the carimunda from us being matched with a specific cottage cheese from France and a specific wine that would come from a particular harvest and then pairing it in this manner and offering a unique taste experience to customers.

因此，从这个意义上说，我们重新认识到了这份传统。

So in that sense, we were awakened to this heritage.

我们意识到这一点，但并不清楚它可能产生的影响，也不确定它在市场上的价值。

We were aware of it, but not necessarily what its impact can be and whether it had a value in the marketplace.

在巴黎，位于香榭丽舍大街不远处一家低调而奢华的圣雷吉斯酒店的温馨沙龙里，Peppa在市场中正享有相当高的价值。

Back in Paris, in the cozy salon of a discreet but posh hotel called the Saint Regis, not far from the Champs Elysees, Peppa is enjoying quite a bit of value in the marketplace.

茶点桌已布置妥当，丰盛的下午茶从下午四点开始，一长串精心制作的司康饼、泡芙、塔饼和甜点将源源不断地呈上，直至六点左右。

The tables are set for tea, a very substantial one, settled in at four, and a long tranquil river of very delicately prepared scones, choux pastry, tarts, desserts, and ghetto will float your way until about six.

这是一场充满惊喜的下午茶时光。

And it's a tea time that's full of surprises.

在这里，你看到的塔饼由奥弗涅的烤榛子、来自亚马逊的芳香植物Luxuri和马拉巴胡椒组成。

And here, you have the tarts, which is composed of roasted hazelnuts from Auvergne, Luxuri, an aromatic plant from the Amazon, and Malabar pepper.

这款茶由杰西卡·普雷亚尔·帕托精心构思并主要由她制作，她于2019年被授予世界最佳糕点师称号，且十分热爱胡椒。

This tea was dreamt up and, for a large part, prepared by Jessica Preyal Pateau, who was named best pastry chef in the world in 2019 and who loves pepper.

比如，我们做了一款巧克力甜点，并搭配了一种用新鲜青胡椒制成的调味品，用研钵和研杵粗略研磨而成。

We made a chocolate dessert here, for example, with which we served a condiment made of fresh green pepper, ground really coarsely with a pestle and mortar.

因为是青胡椒，它的辣度不如黑胡椒，但却带有青草般的叶绿素风味。

Because it's green, it is not as strong as black pepper, but it has that green chlorophyll taste.