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大家好，欢迎来到未来。
Hello, and welcome to the future.
我是主持人Chris Do，感谢大家收听和下载这期播客。
I'm your host, Chris Do, and thanks for tuning in and downloading this podcast.
我右边是Aaron Zakeli。
To my right is Aaron Zakeli.
大家好。
Hello, everyone.
你不喜欢被称为跟班。
You don't like being called the sidekick.
对吧？
Right?
可靠的跟班听起来不酷。
Trusty sidekick doesn't sound cool.
就像蝙蝠侠和罗宾那样。
It's like Batman and Robin.
每个人都需要一个可靠的搭档。
Everybody needs their trusty sidekick.
而你就不喜欢这样。
And you don't like that.
除了罗宾，还有别的酷搭档吗？
Is there any other cool sidekick beside Robin?
有，但也许约翰·罗斯能帮我们解答。
There are, but maybe John Roth can help us out.
约翰，坐在我左边的这位。
John, sitting to my left.
你好。
Hello.
约翰，有没有别的词来形容那种不叫“可靠搭档”的角色？
John, is there another term where trusty sidekick doesn't like that?
嗯，不知怎么的，我立刻想到了胖胖和瘦瘦。
For well, for some reason, my mind instantly went to Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
不。
No.
这……这没什么帮助。
That's That doesn't really help.
所以……
So
等等。
Wait.
嗯，你知道，有夏洛克·福尔摩斯。
Well, you know, there's Sherlock Holmes.
这个不错。
That's a good one.
不错。
Good one.
华生常常比夏洛克还厉害。
Watson was often superior to Sherlock.
是的。
Yes.
说得好。
Good one.
对。
Yeah.
这是个好方面。
That's a good side.
看到了吧？
See?
华生，我们就叫你华生了。
Watson, we'll call you Watson.
今天，说来也怪，我们的主题是关于沟通的艺术。
Today, oddly enough, our topic is going to be about the art of communication.
很多时候，当事情进展不顺利，指挥链出了问题，或者某些事情没做成，人们常常会说这是沟通问题。
Oftentimes, when things don't work out, chain of command, something doesn't work out, people often say it's a communication issue.
邮件被误解了，这就是沟通问题。
An email is interpreted incorrectly, it's a communication issue.
所以我想问问你们。
So I'm gonna throw this out there to you guys.
有什么事情是你害怕去谈的？
What's something that you dreaded talking about?
或者你可能站在另一边，有人来告诉你坏消息，但他们可能没选对词，真的伤害了你，冒犯了你，诸如此类。
Or perhaps you're on the other side of that equation where somebody came and told you some bit of bad news and maybe they didn't choose the right words and it really hurt you, it offended you, something to that degree.
这就是我们真正要讨论的，我觉得这对我作为企业家、领导者和公众演讲者的成长帮助巨大。
And this is what we're gonna really talk about something that I think has helped me grow tremendously as an entrepreneur, as a leader, and as a public speaker.
沟通的艺术。
The art of communication.
那谁想先来？
So who wants to start first?
谁有什么问题，或者某件事让你焦虑不安，内心紧张，害怕去谈？
Who has an issue or something that was maybe so fraught with anxiety and made you feel tense inside that you dreaded over talking about it.
可能是分手。
It could be a breakup.
也许你想辞职。
Maybe you wanted to quit a job.
也许你想要求加薪之类的。
Maybe you wanted to ask for a raise, something like that.
或者也许下属的表现没有达到你的预期。
Or maybe a subordinate wasn't performing up to a task that you had expected.
可能是设计师。
It could be a designer.
可能是制作人。
It could be a producer.
可能是任何事。
It could be anything.
有人想分享吗？
Anybody wanna share?
谁想先来？
Who wants to go first?
好吧。
Well, okay.
有一次，我管理过一个部门。
So, at one point, I managed a department.
嗯。
K.
而且我有
And I had
你听起来好像不确定自己是否管理过那个部门。
a You sound like you're not sure if you managed the department.
不。
No.
我确实管理过。
I did.
你到底管没管？
Did you or didn't you?
嗯，我说“部门”之所以打引号，是因为其实就我一个人。
I well, because the reason why I say department quote unquote, unquote, because it was really department one.
所以，就我一个人，还有……
So I was just it was just me and
一个部门
a department
我在管理，我……
was managing I
我也管一个部门。
run a department too.
你那个叫“我一个人的部门”。
You It's called department of me.
你可以管……
You can run
当你管理自己的时候，也算是在管理一个部门。
a department when you're managing yourself.
那就像什么……
That's like what does
我自己的部门。
The department of of me.
就像一只手鼓掌的声音。
The sound of one hand clapping.
得了吧。
Come on.
抱歉。
Sorry.
好吧。
Okay.
为什么那里会有问号。
Why the question mark was there.
你知道，这些刚出校门的年轻人，也许在工作岗位上，表现并不像你预期的那样。
Know, these young kids out of school and maybe when they're on the job, they're not really performing as you thought they would.
所以，你知道，要跟他们进行一场艰难的对话，说，我觉得这里不太适合你。
And so, you know, having a difficult conversation of saying, well, I don't think this is the right place for you.
这真的很让人心碎，因为你知道，你也曾经经历过那个阶段，你明白吗？
And it's really heartbreaking because you know, you were there once, you know?
好的。
Okay.
所以
So
情况是这样的，你有下属，其中某个人或某一群人表现不佳，而你不知道该怎么告诉他们。
The situation is there are people that report to you and there's somebody or a group of people who aren't working out and you don't know how to tell them that.
对吗？
Is that right?
是的，因为那是一个困难且令人不舒服的局面。
Yeah, because it's a difficult, uncomfortable situation.
好的。
Okay.
但是
But
在深入讨论谢丽尔的情况之前，我想先问问大家，亚伦或约翰，你们有没有遇到过需要解雇或训斥下属的情况？
Let me ask the group before we dive too deep into Cheryl's scenario here is Aaron or John, have you guys been in a situation where you've had to either let go or reprimand a subordinate?
嗯，我在
Well, I in
过去，当我在学校的时候，我导演了好几部电影，有几次演员的表演并没有达到我想要的理想效果。
the past, when I when I was in school, I directed quite a few films and there was, there were a couple times where the performances I was getting from the actors I wanted wasn't exactly what it needed to be.
大多数时候，我都能从演员那里得到勉强过得去的表演，但有一次我拍的电影，我的第二主角完全没给我我需要的表现。
And there was one time where most of the time, I I was able to get something passable out of the actors, but there was one film I made where my lead my second lead actor just was not giving me at all what I needed.
那时制作还处于早期阶段，我可以换掉他，继续完成项目。
And it was early enough in the production that I could get rid of him and still continue to make the project.
所以在片场有一天，那是第二天，我拍了几条之后，把他拉到一边。
So there was a day on set where it was the second day where I I pulled him to the side after a couple of takes.
我就说，你看，我们真的需要试着，你知道，用这种方式来拍，等等等等。
I was like, look, we really need to try and, you know, get it this particular way, blah blah blah.
我需要的就是这个。
I I need this exact thing.
然后他说，好的。
And he was like, okay.
好的。
Okay.
我完全明白。
I fully understand.
但那天剩下的时间里，他就是给不了我想要的表演。
And the rest of the day, he just wouldn't give me the performance I needed.
所以最后我不得不把他从电影里剪掉。
So I eventually had to cut him from the film.
而我处理那些我不想说或者他们不想听的事情的方式，就是通过幽默来说。
And the way I handle telling people things that I don't wanna say or they don't wanna hear is I do it through humor.
你显然对谈论这件事感到不舒服。
You obviously felt uncomfortable about talking about this.
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yes.
因为这是一个尽力而为的人。
Because here's a guy who's trying to do his best.
当然
Of
了。
course.
他并不是故意无视你的指导。
And he wasn't maliciously trying to ignore your direction.
他只是无法接受那些意见。
He just wasn't capable of taking the notes.
是的。
Yeah.
他是……或者你能够把笔记给他。
He was Or you were capable of delivering it to him.
对。
Correct.
他……好的。
He Okay.
我们每个人当时都尽了最大努力。
We were we were each, each of our mindsets doing the best we could.
对。
Right.
但这是我的项目。
But this was my project.
这是我的愿景，我需要得到非常具体的东西，而这个人无法提供。
It was my vision and I needed to get something very specific and from this person I couldn't get it.
所以你的意思是，你承认你在那件事里有责任，但因为是你的电影，你没法把自己换掉。
So what you're saying is, you accept that you had a role in that, but since it's your film, you couldn't replace yourself.
对。
Correct.
所以那你只能把他换掉。
So then you had to replace him.
对。
Correct.
好。
Okay.
所以我觉得我们都能多少理解这一点。
So I think we can all relate to this a little bit.
总有那么一个人，他本意是好的，尽力想让你满意，也想让你高兴，但不管怎样就是不行。
There's somebody who who means well, is doing their best to please you, who wants to please you, but for whatever reason it's not working out.
在我们深入讨论你具体说了什么之前，我想先给Aaron一个机会，看看他是否也遇到过类似的情况。
Now before we get into exactly what you said, I just want to give Aaron the opportunity in case he's had a similar situation.
围绕这一点，你不得不解雇、训斥或开除人，随便你怎么说，
Centered around this, you have to dismiss or reprimand or get rid of fire, whatever word you want to use,
调岗。
relocate.
嗯，你猜我现在处于什么阶段，我发现自己大多数时候都是下属的位置，所以我通常是那个
Well, guess where I'm at in my life, I find myself in the position of the subordinate most of the time, so I'm usually the one
被开除的？
Getting fired?
对，被开除。
Getting fired, yeah.
或者我搞砸了，或者
Or I messed up or
你被开除过
Have you been fired
在那一方面。
for on that side of it.
我觉得我没被解雇过，但确实有人对我做事的方式感到失望，不管那是什么事。
I don't think I've been fired, but someone has been disappointed with the way I performed my end of the whatever it was.
好的。
Okay.
这个我们待会儿再说。
We won't get into that just yet.
好。
Good.
好的。
Okay.
我等不及了。
I can't wait.
我就是说说。
Just saying
只是待会儿，不是永远不说。
just yet, not never.
只是还没到时候。
Just yet.
这事肯定会发生的。
It's gonna happen.
好了。
Alright.
谢丽尔，你有过让一些年轻下属离开的经历。
Cheryl, you had an experience of letting some young subordinates go.
我实际上让情况变得很尴尬。
I actually disappointed the situation.
哦，你回避了？
Oh, you avoided it?
这完全是因为那是个短期的事情。
It was a complete because it was gonna be it was a short term type thing.
哦。
Oh.
所以我就那样
So I was just like
你让时间白白流逝了。
You let the time right out.
对。
Yeah.
就让时间耗尽了。
Just let the clock run out.
好的。
Okay.
那跟我说说，你当时为什么不想告诉他们？
So tell me some of your feelings around why you didn't want to tell them.
试着表达一下。
Try to articulate that.
压力。
Stress.
再多说点。
Give me more words.
在广播里，话多总是好的。
Words are good on the radio.
真的很好。
They're really good.
我喜欢说话。
I love words.
压力。
Stress.
描述一下内心的感受。
Describe the feeling inside.
我觉得，去进行对话会比等上一两周或者更久更让人有压力。
My feeling was it would have been more stressful to go through conversation than it would be to wait a week or two or however many
我理解。
I understand that.
就像，而且从钱的角度来说，钱并不多。
It was like and in terms of the money, the money wasn't significant.
所以我就觉得，好吧。
So I was just like Okay.
我只是
I was just
明白了。
get that.
也许我搞混了。
Maybe I'm confused.
等什么？
Wait for what?
她，因为那是个实习。
She because it was like an internship.
哦，所以
Oh, so
他们的时间快到了。
Their timeline was running out.
我想你们没注意听故事。
I guess you guys weren't paying attention to the story.
我不知道“实习”这个词有没有被提到过。
I don't know if the word internship was was was spoken yet.
我没听到“实习生”这个词。
I didn't hear the word intern.
不喜欢那个实习生。
Didn't like the intern.
就是入门级别的职位。
An entry level type deal.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
所以，如果你当时什么都不说，你一周后就会离开了。
So, if you wouldn't have said anything, you would have left in a week.
对。
Yeah.
确实是这样。
It was yeah.
所以，当时是有好几个人，对吧？
So, it was was multiple people, right?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
就一个人？
It was one?
就一个。
Just one.
好的。
Okay.
所以，就一个人，时间在倒数。
So, one person, the timeline's ticking down.
她知道她和这个人剩下的时间不多了。
She knows she has a fine amount of time left with this person.
她决定忍受这一切。
She decided to grant and bear it.
但我们还没弄清楚的是你当时的感受。
But the part that we haven't illuminated yet is this whole notion of what you were feeling.
她说压力，但压力对每个人来说意义不同。
So she said stress and stress means lots of different things to people.
试着描述一下。
Try describe that.
如果你是个孩子，你会怎么告诉父母你的感受？
If you're a child, how would you tell your parent what you're feeling?
那是什么感觉？
What was it?
你感到胃里有个结吗？
Did you feel a knot in your stomach?
你感到焦虑吗？
Did you feel anxiety?
试着说“恐惧”。
Try to Dread.
恐惧？
Dread?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
再给我多说一点。
Give me a little bit more.
所以，两个
So, two
到目前为止你说了两个词。
words from you so far.
压力和
Stress and
压力，恐惧。
Stress, dread.
这两个词都很好。
And those are two good words.
嗯，当我想到那次对峙本身，我感到很多压力和恐惧，还有很多……我就是……我不知道还能怎么形容。
Well, when I thought about the confrontation itself, it was a lot of stress and dread and a lot of and and so I I just and and I don't know how else to describe that.
我当时……
I it was
对。
Yeah.
嗯，对我来说，而且，你知道，你说你只有有限的时间来做这件事。
Well well, for me, and and, you know, you said you had a finite amount of time to do it.
对我来说，我也必须很快做出决定，因为你知道，我们只拍几天，而这是第二天拍摄的开始，我必须让这个演员离开或者处理掉他。
For me, my decision also had to be made super quickly because, you know, we were only shooting for a couple days and this was the beginning of the second day of shooting where I had to take down this or get rid of this actor.
约翰的问题正好相反，他的时间在流逝，而你却有时间可以消磨。
John had the exact opposite problem, which was the time was ticking down for him where you had time to kill.
你有时间，所以你不必做决定。
Had time on your side, so you didn't have make a decision.
他的情况正好相反。
His was the exact opposite.
时间快用完了。
Time was running out.
他必须做出决定。
He had to make the decision.
如果那个人做的事情对我日常运作非常关键，那我可能会说，嘿，我们需要解决这个问题。
If the person was doing something that was really vital to my day to day operation function of what I was doing, then I probably would have said, hey, you know, we need to figure this out.
但最后发现其实没那么重要。
But in the end, really wasn't.
所以我就觉得，不值得为这个起冲突。
So I was just like, it's not worth the confrontation.
你是在说，你是一个很……
Was You're being non
怎么说呢，典型的创意型人才。
a very, how should I say this, a typical design creative person.
对。
Mhmm.
我们不喜欢冲突，会尽量去避免。
We don't like confrontation, we'll do as much as we can to avoid it.
而这就是沟通问题的开始。
And this is the beginning of the problem of communication.
所以你压抑自己的感受和需求，去迁就别人，让他们轻松自在，甚至不知道你对他们失望，你打算让时间耗尽，这没问题，挺好的。
So you subjugate your own feelings and your needs for that of another person, so they can walk blithely through and not even know that you're disappointed in them and you're gonna let time run out which is fine, it's great.
而和约翰在一起，有一种真正的紧迫感，我刚才听到他说的是，我必须专注于结果。
And with John, there was a real sense of urgency and what I just heard him say was, I had to focus on the result.
那会给我力量，因为如果我不行动，我的电影就会受影响，我不会让我的电影受影响的。
That was gonna give me the power because if I didn't act, my film would suffer and I'm not gonna let my film suffer.
对。
Right.
所以你专注于结果。
So you focus on the result.
也许部分原因是你不希望被认为刻薄，而且你可能感到责任和内疚，因为他们向你汇报。
Maybe some of this is you don't wanna be perceived as being mean and you you might feel a sense of responsibility and guilt that they reported to you.
所以也许你作为老板也失败了，而且有责任夺走某人的生计，削弱他们的自尊和自我价值。
So maybe you failed as a boss too and there's some responsibility of taking the livelihood of somebody away from them and making diminishing their own self esteem and self worth.
我尽量多捕捉这些话语，因为我觉得在某个地方，我们的听众会听到这些，然后觉得，哦，是的，我就是这么感觉的，这就是我回避这个的原因。
I'm trying to capture as many of these words because I think somewhere in here our audience is gonna listen to this and feel like, oh yeah, that's how I feel and that's why I'm avoiding this.
所以这挺好的。
So this is good.
我想把情况说得更完整一些。
I wanna paint a more complete picture.
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得对别人也要有一定的同理心，因为我自己也经历过那种情况，就像我说的，我当时是新人。
And I guess also having certain level of empathy for the other person, because I was in situations, like I said, I had been in that situation where I was just, I was brand new.
而且，你知道，我当时的上级或同事可能不是最有同理心的人。
And, you know, I had maybe not the most empathetic people I was reporting to or working with.
你会觉得莫名其妙就被骂了。
And you at, you feel like you get yelled at for absolutely no reason.
你根本不知道自己哪里做错了。
You had no idea what you did wrong.
你懂吗？
You know?
你就会想，她怎么这么刻薄？
You're just like, why is she so mean?
所以你会努力，你总是想把事情做得更好，轮到你的时候。
And so you're trying to you're trying to and, you you always wanna do things better, you know, when it's your turn.
我不想让那种情况发生。
And I I I wanted not to have that situation.
所以我就，你知道，有些事情我会试着帮忙，有些事情我就放手，我就想，我不会去……
So I just, you know, some things I would try to help, some things I just let go, and I just was like, you know, I'm not going to
嗯，我想在这种情况下，你算是为团队牺牲了，对吧。
Well, I guess in this case, you took one for the team in the sense Yeah.
你想成为一个比前任老板更好的老板，你愿意忍受各种低效。
That you wanted to be a better boss than your previous boss was, and you were gonna swallow whatever inefficiencies.
不。
No.
那听起来太糟糕了，但是……
That sounds so awful, but
好吧，那是你说的。
Well, that's what you said.
我觉得，我觉得那是
I think I think it was
我觉得他，我觉得那个人在某些事情上确实变好了，但我不想彻底改造整个人的全部。
I think he I think I think the person got better at doing certain things, but it was like, I didn't wanna re haul revamp the whole entire person.
就像，好吧，我们在这里最多只有几周时间。
It's like, okay, we have a we have weeks at the most here.
好的。
Okay.
我能帮就帮，但我不会在那里给自己太大压力。
I'll help out where I can, but I'm not gonna stress in there.
Aaron，是我描述得不对，还是你听到的也是那样？
Aaron, did I paint that picture incorrectly, or did you hear the same thing?
什么？
What?
我
I
确实听到了同样的话。
did hear the same thing.
但我当时在想的是，我的意思是，因为我觉得我在设身处地地为这个年轻人着想。
But what I was thinking is, I mean, because I feel like I'm putting myself in the shoes of this young man.
我猜那是个男的。
I'm guessing it was a man.
没关系。
That's fine.
对。
Yeah.
而且我会想，如果我在实习，我会努力去学习。
And I would think that if I'm in an internship, I'm kinda trying to learn.
所以如果有人告诉我，嘿，兄弟，我会很感激。
So I would appreciate if someone told me, hey, man.
你干得真的很差劲，而且，你知道，你需要加把劲，这就是你做错的五件事，你需要改正，不然我们就要开除你了之类的。
You're doing a real bad job and, like, you know, you need to step up, and this is what these five things is what you're doing wrong and you need to fix that and we're gonna fire you or whatever.
因为那样我就会想，好吧，我现在也改不了，下次，你知道，会更好的。
Because then I'll be like, okay, well, I can't fix it now and next time, you know, it'll be better.
对。
Yeah.
至少，离开的时候知道自己哪里搞砸了，总比什么都不知道强，而且那样就没有改进的空间了。
At the very least, it would be better to walk away knowing how you screwed up than not knowing at all and not being able not there's then there's no room for improvement there.
也许他甚至觉得自己干得挺好的。
It's like maybe even he thinks he's doing a great job.
当然。
Of course.
他
He's
活在这个虚幻的世界里。
living in this delusional world.
对吧？
Right?
当然
Of
了。
course.
你得戳破这个幻想，我是不会的。
You gotta burst bubble, I would not.
但如果我是他，我会感激的。
Well I would if I were him, I'd appreciate
是的。
that.
而且为谢丽尔辩护一下，大多数人都说想要反馈，但一旦你告诉他们，他们就会变得防备，然后全盘否认，还会跟你争辩。
And Sheryl's defense, most people say I wanna get feedback and as soon as you tell them, they get defensive and then deny it all and they fight you on it.
这也是她所考虑的。
And that's what she's thinking about as well.
我确信是这样。
I'm sure of it.
因为不幸的是，我以前不得不解雇过几个人，他们总是问，我做错了什么？
Because I've unfortunately had to let a few people go in my day and they always ask, what did I do wrong?
我告诉他们之后，他们又跟我争辩。
And I tell them that and then they argue with me.
所以久而久之，我明白了，你其实并不想知道。
So over time, learned that you really don't want to know.
你你你想要的是这件事的了结，但你这么做并不是因为你想成长。
You you you want closure on this situation, but you're not doing it because you wanna grow.
你不是。
You're not.
Aaron，你想说点什么吗？
Aaron, you wanted to say something?
你好像在看着我。
You're like looking at me.
我在想，因为当这种事发生在我身上时，当有人告诉我，打破了我的幻想，我以为我做得很好，但实际上我做得不好，他们给了我非常具体的我做错的地方。
Well I was thinking, because when when it's happened to me, when someone told me, burst my bubble, I thought I did good, but really I did bad, they gave me very specific things that I did wrong.
当那些事情非常具体时，你真的没法争辩。
And when they're really specific things, you can't really argue with those.
不，人们不能相信我。
No, people can't trust me.
比如，你没有准时出现。
Like, you didn't show up on time.
那是非常具体的事情。
That's a very specific thing.
他们会说，是的，我准时了。
They're like, yes, I have.
人们喜欢争辩，相信我。
People like to argue, trust me.
我准时出现了。
I have showed up on time.
对，
Yeah,
但是约翰，我们回到你的情况吧。
but John, let's get back to your situation.
好的。
Okay.
因为谢丽尔回避了这个问题，这对我们的对话很重要。
Because Cheryl avoided it and this is important for our conversation.
当然。
Sure.
因为我觉得这更能反映正在收听这个节目的听众的情况。
Because I think that is reflective of more of the people who are listening to this.
让我们重新深入你的情况。
And let's like dive back into your situation.
演员们得走了。
The actors gotta go.
你是怎么处理的？
How did you handle it?
嗯，很不幸，我记不清原话了，但是
So well, unfortunately, I can't remember literally verbatim the conversation but
大概意思就行。
I'll take the gist of it.
当时没人在场。
Nobody was there.
好，大概意思是这样。
Here's here's the gist.
当时我特别不舒服，因为虽然我尽量避开不好的冲突，但这话说出来挺奇怪的，因为你会觉得大多数人都会尽量避免冲突。
So it was it was very uncomfortable for me because even though I try to avoid bad confrontations as much as I can, which is a weird thing to say out loud because you think most people would try to avoid bad confrontations.
嗯，我尤其会注意这个。
Well, I especially look out for it.
所以一开始，我大概是用个奇怪的笑话来打破僵局的。
So I definitely, at the start of the conversation, probably broke the ice with some weird random joke.
但基本上，当有人跟我对峙时，我必须尽可能直接。
But I basically, when I'm confronted, I have to be as straightforward as possible.
我就直接告诉他，听着，我真的很感激你付出的时间和努力，但这不太适合——我没说“愿景”，因为我不想显得那么自命不凡，尽管我确实是个很自命不凡的人。
I just told him, look, I really appreciate you giving me your time and effort, but this this hasn't been working out for I didn't say vision because I didn't wanna sound that pretentious even though I'm a very pretentious person.
但这不符合我的愿景，而且我真的很感激你为我付出的时间。
But this wasn't working out for my vision, and I really appreciate the time you've given to me.
如果将来有机会，我很乐意再次与你合作。
And should something come up in the future, I would love to to work with you again.
但现在，我不得不让你离开这个项目。
But for now, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to let you go from this project.
他是个大学演员，免费干活。
He was a college actor working for free.
他本来什么项目都愿意接的。
He would have taken really any project.
所以他也没太往心里去。
So he didn't take it too hard.
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但对我来说，我紧张得直冒汗，因为去说那些话让我很不自在。
But for me, I was sweating bullets because it was I was just uncomfortable going
这其中的笑点在哪里？
Where was the joke in this?
哦，天哪。
Oh, god.
是在开头。
It was at the beginning.
你总是用幽默来处理事情吗？
You handle everything with comedy?
嗯，我在最开始用了一下，然后就进入正题了。
Well, I handled it at the very beginning and then got into the meat and potatoes.
哦，我并不是一直都有趣。
Oh, I'm not always funny.
好的。
Okay.
有意思，你们这样安排是为了让大家集中注意力。
Interesting how you set that up for you guys to pay attention.
先跟我多说说他的反应吧。
First, tell me a little bit more about his reaction.
他是怎么回应的？
How did he respond?
不用逐字复述。
Not verbatim.
他非常专业。
He was very professional.
他明显有点低落，但他说，听着，谢谢给我这个机会。
He he was visibly a little down, but he was like, look, thank you for the opportunity.
很遗憾没能成。
I'm sorry it couldn't work out.
他没揍我脸，这真是太好了。
He didn't punch me in the face, which was really good.
但是，没有。
But, no.
而且我们偶尔还会联系。
And and we we still talk every once in a while.
所以我觉得，尽管我当时很紧张，也很不想做那件事，但我肯定做对了一些事情。
So I I think as nervous as I was about handling it, as much as I didn't wanna do it, I must have done something right.
对。
Yeah.
你得到了
You got
一个好的结果。
a good result out of it.
是的。
Yeah.
他很专业。
He was professional.
他没有打你。
He didn't punch you.
他没有打我。
He didn't punch me.
而且你们现在还有联系。
And you guys are still in touch today.
对。
Mhmm.
你是这个意思吗？
Is that what you're saying?
是的。
Yep.
这就是你知道事情成功的方式。
That's how you know it worked out.
那他有没有试图跟你争辩？
So did he like try to disagree with you?
比如我做得很好。
Like that I am doing a good job.
就是你不行，约翰。
It's just you're crappy, John.
他没有不同意，但他确实问了，比如他哪里做得不好。
He didn't he didn't disagree, but he did ask like, what he was doing wrong.
所以他问了一些问题，我想，但我只是重复了前几天说过的话。
So he asked some questions, I I think, but I kinda just repeated what I was saying the previous couple days.
那可不愉快。
It was not fun.
克里斯，你以前解雇人的时候，你是什么感觉？你跟他们说的时候，心里怎么想的？
How Chris, when you've let people go in the past, is it, do you, like, what's your feeling when you, like, communicate that to them?
因为有没有一些人，你解雇他们的时候觉得很不好受？
Because are there people, like, you feel really bad about letting go?
或者有没有一些人，你当时就想，天哪，我巴不得赶紧让他走？我不是说你是个随便开除人的家伙。
Or have there been people where you're just like, oh man, I can't wait to let this guy go or not painting you as some guy who fires everyone.
顺便说一句，顺便说一句，请别解雇我。
The by the way, by the way, please don't fire me.
我知道。
I know.
我知道当克里斯说我们要谈沟通的时候。
I know when Chris is like, we're doing a talk about communication.
约翰，我有件事想谈
John, I have something to talk
跟你谈谈。
to you about.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我已经经历了整个心路历程，我在这方面接受过很多辅导和个人成长训练。
I've gone through the whole arc of how I feel I've had a lot of coaching, kind of personal development around this very issue.
我的一个问题就是我不想招人，因为我知道如果事情不顺利，我就得解雇他们。
One of my issues was I didn't wanna hire people because I knew if it didn't work out I'd have to fire them.
对。
Mhmm.
所以这就在人为地拖慢公司发展，这时候Keir帮了我，他说你知道我们必须帮你克服这个，我会教你一些解雇人的方法。
So this is artificially holding back the company and this is when Keir helped me out and he said you know we have to help you get over this and I'm gonna teach you some ways in which you can fire people.
但我要跟你描述一下我的感受，这跟你们之前表达的正好吻合，但这是我的感觉。
But I'm gonna describe to you the feeling that I have and it dovetails into both what you guys have expressed already but here's how I feel.
我的耳朵变得很烫。
My ears get really hot.
我能感觉到血液在那里聚集。
I could feel the blood collecting there.
我还能想象我背上和头上的毛孔在张开，我形容这是一种压力油，就像这些毒素从身体里释放出来，我能感觉到。
I can also imagine if my the pores on my back and my head are opening up and this kind of I describe as a stress oil like it's getting released these toxins from my body and I'm feeling it.
我感觉心跳加速，节奏在加快，而且这远在我需要告诉任何人任何事之前就发生了。
I'm feeling like my heart quickening, the pace is quickening and this is way before I even have to tell anybody anything.
然后我会想象最坏的情况，就像你刚才说的，天哪，他们会爆发，会发生可怕的事情，我凭什么去控制这个人的生活，我凭什么去评判？
And then I imagine the worst case scenario which is what you were talking about which is oh my gosh they're gonna explode, these horrible things are gonna happen and who am I to like control this person's life and who am I to judge?
他们之后会做什么工作呢？
What are they gonna do for work after this?
我知道他们有责任。
I know they have responsibilities.
他们可能刚搬到这里，或者感情关系不稳定，而且是家里唯一的经济支柱。
They just moved here for someplace or they're in a funky relationship and they're the sole breadwinner.
他们还有孩子要照顾。
They've got a kid they gotta take care of.
所以所有这些事情都在我脑海里堆积起来。
So all of these things are stacking up on my mind.
而且这种责任感，我慢慢在加重。
And the responsibility, I'm kind of building up.
感觉这真的很重大，很重要。
It's like this is really big and important.
我不想承担这个责任。
I don't want to have this responsibility.
所以这就是我避免招人的原因。
And so that's why I shied away from hiring people.
只有当我完全确定他们非常适合公司文化，而且他们是非常有才华、有创造力的人时，我才会雇佣他们。
It's only when I absolutely knew that they're a great culture fit and they're an amazing, talented, creative person that was gonna hire them.
那么，我们开始谈谈如何讨论这个话题吧。
So let's begin then the transition about how to talk about this.
好的。
Okay.
我经历了一个相当长的过程，我们将在本期播客的结尾给你们这些听众一些非常实用的建议，你们可以采取的行动。
And I've gone through a pretty wide arc and we're gonna end this podcast with very actionable things for you guys that are listening to this, what you can do.
所以我觉得还有一点，特别是对于男性或职场人士来说。
So I think there's this thing too like, especially for men or professional people.
我不应该说只针对男性，而是对于职场人士，我们有一种自豪感。
I shouldn't say for men but for professional people, We have a sense of pride.
即使你不喜欢你的工作，如果有人说你做得不好，你会觉得，哦，我得证明我做得很好。
Even if you don't love your job, if you're told you're not doing well, you feel like, oh, I gotta prove that I am doing well.
对。
Mhmm.
如果我离开，那是因为我辞职，而不是因为你解雇我，因为我不称职或不服从命令什么的。
And if I'm going out, I'm going out because I quit, not because you fired me because I'm incompetent or because I'm insubordinate or whatever it is.
人们想说，我做得很好。
People wanna say like, I did a good job.
我只是不再适合这里了。
I just don't fit here anymore.
所以有所有这些事情。
So there's all these things.
对吧？
Okay?
那我们就直接切入正题吧。
So let's cut to some of this stuff.
你能做什么呢？
What can you do?
所以我不想把这次对话变成关于解雇的艺术。
So I don't want this conversation to be the art of firing.
这是沟通的艺术。
It's the art of communication.
所以我要讲一些事情。
So I'm gonna go through some things.
就像生活中很多事一样，当我们害怕某件事时，我们会想象最坏的情况，这在我们的脑海中、在思想的回音室里不断放大，以至于我们觉得它无法克服。
As often many things in our life when we're afraid of something, when we have fear, we imagine the worst possible scenario happening and that builds up so great in our mind in that echo chamber of our brain that we then think it's insurmountable.
我实在无法再这样下去了。
I cannot possibly humanly do this anymore.
我们来谈谈如何沟通，我会重点讲那些非常容易说出口的事情。
Let's talk about how we communicate and I'm gonna focus really on the things that are very to say.
如果你要和某人分手，或者要解雇某人，或者必须给某人指示，类似这种情况，你知道他们不会喜欢听。
If you're breaking up with somebody for firing somebody, if you have to give somebody direction, something like that, where you know they're not gonna love it.
我之所以关注负面的事情，并不是因为我是一个消极的人。
And the reason why I'm focusing on the negative is not because I'm a negative person.
告诉别人他们做得很好。
Telling somebody they did a great job.
告诉别人你应得加薪，或者你今天让我很开心。
Telling somebody you deserve a raise raise or you made my day today.
这很容易。
That's easy.
我们喜欢说这类话。
We like to say those kinds of things.
我们不会关注那些。
We won't focus on that.
当我谈论和教人们要透明时，他们常常误解透明，以为就是直接说，本着透明的精神，我觉得你锻炼不够。
Now, when I talk and teach people about being transparent, They often mistake being transparent as this, literally saying, in the spirit of being transparent, I don't think you're working out.
我得让你走了。
I have to let you go.
大多数人会说，对，你确实很坦诚。
And most people will say, yeah, you are being transparent.
但这不是我理解的那种坦诚。
That's not being transparent in the way that I understand it to be.
坦诚不是直接或清楚。
Being transparent isn't about being direct or clear.
而是把那些大家都不清楚的部分照亮，让大家看到你的思考过程。
It's about illuminating the parts that are not clear to anybody, giving visibility into your thinking.
所以当你说你不好好锻炼，我得让你走。
So when you say you're not working out, I have to let you go.
你是从故事的结尾开始讲的。
You've began the story at the end.
那是你思考的结论。
That's the conclusion of what you've been thinking.
所以我想让你想象一下，如果我们在一列火车上，思想的火车，车尾就是你要说的话。
So what I want you to imagine is like if we're on a train, the train of thought, the caboose is what you're gonna say.
引擎是什么？
What's the engine?
是什么在驱动你即将要说的话？
What's the thing that's driving what it is that you're about to say?
明白吗？
Okay?
这始于你的直觉。
And this begins in your gut.
如果你听西蒙·斯涅克讲，他会从大脑运作的角度来谈这个。
If you listen to Simon Sinek, he talks about it on a level of like how your brain works.
他说你大脑的边缘系统，也就是你的直觉、本能的部分，那个做决定的部分，那个驱动你做什么以及怎么做的部分，是没有语言能描述的。
He says the limbic part of your brain, your gut, the instinctual part, the thing, the decision maker, the thing that drives what you do and how you choose to do what you do doesn't have language to describe it.
就像你走进一个房间，感觉受到欢迎，但你不确定为什么。
Like when you walk into a room, you feel welcome, you're not sure why.
当你走进一个房间，感到害怕，觉得生命可能有危险，或者你遇到某人，心想：我不能信任这个人。
When you walk into a room, feel scared that your life might be in jeopardy or you meet somebody and you think, I cannot trust this person.
你的大脑其实非常擅长这个，经过数百万年的进化，它已经能很好地判断这些，否则你在野外也活不下来。
Your brain is actually really good through you know, years, millions of years of evolution to kind of figure this out otherwise you wouldn't survive in the wild.
你遇到一个人，他们可能会杀了你，你需要知道这一点，这样你才能保持警惕，对吧？
You meet somebody, they're gonna kill you and you need to know that so you're on guard, right?
所以，你大脑中的这个边缘系统，也就是你的直觉，那个做决定的部分，它知道一些事情，我想告诉你，那就是引擎。
So this limbic part of your brain, the gut, the decision maker knows something and I would like to tell you that that's the engine.
那是火车头。
That's the head of the train.
现在，我们来看看谢丽尔的情况，因为她避开了这个问题，所以对我来说更容易谈论，然后我会谈谈约翰。
Now let's take Cheryl's situation because she avoided it, so it's a little easier for me to talk about and then I'll talk about John.
那么，在你的情况中，你的直觉是什么？
So in your situation here, what is your gut?
你内心情感的部分对这个人说了什么？
What is the emotional part of your center saying to you about this person?
我们会从那里开始。
We would start there.
他们很努力，但可能没接触过很多东西。
That they're trying hard and haven't probably been exposed to a lot of things.
好的。
Okay.
那是关于他们的。
Now that's about them.
我想让你谈谈你自己，你的感受。
I want you to talk about you, your feeling.
从说“我感觉……”开始。
Start with saying I feel something.
好吗？
Okay?
然后填空。
And fill in the blank.
我感觉什么？
I feel what?
我对他们的表现感到失望。
I felt disappointed with their performance.
好的。
Okay.
现在，就说你对什么有感觉？
Now, just say how you feel About?
对这种情况。
The situation.
不是你对他们的感觉，因为那是评判，别人很难接受。
Not about how you feel about them because that's judging and that's hard for people to hear.
你明白我的意思吗，谢丽尔？
Do you understand what I'm asking, Cheryl?
所以，就像，你知道你必须做点什么。
So like, so you knew that you had to do something.
是什么感觉促使你那样做的？
What what feeling prompted that?
哦。
Oh.
我们已经谈过了。
We already talked about it.
你已经说过了。
You've already said it.
这就是为什么我一开始让你这么做。
That's why I asked you to do this in the beginning.
压力？
Stress?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
你说了两件事。
You said two things.
我感到压力很大，而且我很害怕和你进行这次对话。
I feel stressed and I'm dreading having this conversation with you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就是推动事情发展的动力。
That's the that's the engine driving the train.
这里没有任何评判。
There's no judgment there.
现在，当对方听到这个，他们会竖起耳朵，说，哇，天哪。
And now it says to the other person, the ears perk up and say, woah, oh my gosh.
谢丽尔，是什么让你感到压力，让你害怕呢？
What is it Cheryl that's stressing you out and dreading you?
但我也知道，接下来肯定有什么事要发生。
But then I also know like something's coming.
我知道有事要发生，所以我在心理上做准备。
I know something is coming so I'm preparing for it mentally.
我们经常在无意识层面做事。
Now what we talk about is oftentimes we do things on an autonomic level.
我们做事不需要思考，比如开车、走路、呼吸，你都不用去想。
We do things without having to think like when you drive, when you walk, when you breathe, you don't have to think about it.
你知道当你开始注意呼吸时，呼吸有多难吗？
You know how difficult it is when you start to think about your breath, how difficult it is to breathe.
对。
Okay.
我们知道这一点。
We know that.
所以这些事情是在无意识层面发生的。
So these things are happening on an autonomic level.
所以我们要做的是放慢节奏，而不是以每小时6600英里的速度前进。
So what we wanna do is we wanna slow down the train instead of going 6,600 miles per hour.
我们要慢下来，不要像看模糊的东西一样直接跳到最后一节车厢，而是要想一想火车头，然后是下一节车厢，以此类推。
We're slow it down and instead of seeing this blur thing and ending on the caboose, we wanna slow down and think about the engine and then the next car in the train and so on and so forth.
对。
Mhmm.
那我们来试试吧。
So let's try that.
这就是我讲的关于透明沟通的部分。
So this is the part when when I talk about and teach transparency in the ways of communicating.
你启动引擎，我感到压力很大，我害怕和你进行这次对话，原因如下。
You start the engine, I feel stressed, I'm dreading having this conversation with you and here's why.
现在说A、B、C。
Go a b and C now.
然后在最后一节车厢结束。
And then end it at the caboose.
所以现在轮到你了。
So turn it back over to you.
我们对约翰也这么做。
And we're do the same thing with John.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得，当我需要你完成一项任务时，我会感到压力，因为我不确定你是否能正确完成。
I feel I feel stressed when I need to have you do an assignment because I'm not sure if it's going to be completed the correct way.
有些技能，我原本希望你有，或者以为你有，但看起来它们并不像面试时表现出的那样强，或者我感知的那样强。
There were certain skills I was hoping that you had or I thought that you had that it doesn't appear are as strong as they, appeared to be during our interview or I perceived them to be during our interview.
因此，我认为目前我们可能不太合适。
For that reason, I think for at this moment, we're probably not the right fit.
我建议你在lynda.com上学习一些课程。
I would recommend some courses on lynda.com.
然后你当面嘲笑他们。
And you laugh in their face.
然后你当面嘲笑他们。
And then you laugh in their face.
不。
No.
难怪你没做。
No wonder you didn't do it.
不。
No.
好的。
Okay.
你做得非常好。
You did a really good job.
我觉得那看起来挺好的。
That seemed pretty good to me.
看起来挺好的。
Seemed pretty good.
挺好的。
Pretty good.
我会给你一些建议，帮你把它打磨得更出色。
I'm gonna give you some pointers to kinda sharpen it up.
好的。
Okay.
还有，各位听众，请记住，这不是一夜之间就能做到的。
And keep in mind, all you guys listening, that this didn't happen overnight.
我一直在练习，有人指导我，我自己也思考了很多，练习了不少。
I've been working on this, I've been coached, I've been doing my own thinking and practicing quite a bit.
所以我有多年经验，我想教你们一些今天、明天就能用的东西，如果你们勤加练习，我觉得你们会变得很擅长。
So I've had years of experience doing this and and I'm trying to teach you something that you can use today, tomorrow, and if you practice that, I think you can get quite good at it.
所以我来试试，你们告诉我感觉怎么样。
So I'm gonna take a stab at it and you guys tell me how you feel.
好吗？
Okay?
你们三个都说说。
All three of you guys.
好的。
Okay.
好吗？
Okay?
我来扮演谢丽尔，我要和你的下属谈谈。
I'm gonna be Cheryl and I'm gonna talk to your subordinate.
我们没有排练过，所以我只是临时想想。
We didn't rehearse this so I'm just kinda thinking on the top of my head.
我们给这个人起个名字。
We'll give this person a name.
就叫他吉米吧。
Let's call him Jimmy.
好的。
Okay.
好吗？
Okay?
嘿，吉米。
Hey, Jimmy.
我需要和你谈一谈，我甚至不知道该怎么跟你说。
I need to have a conversation with you, and I don't even know how to tell you this.
我一直很害怕这件事，它给我带来了很大的压力。
I've been dreading this, and it's it's caused me a lot of stress.
我处在一个很尴尬的境地，因为我知道你的实习还有两周就结束了。
And I'm in this weird predicament because I know your internship with us wraps up in two weeks.
但由于种种原因，我觉得我们不太合适。
But for a number of different reasons, I just don't think we're a good fit for each other.
这真的不是你的问题，也不是我的问题，只是我们不太合适。
This is not really about you or it's about me but we're just not a good fit for each other.
我很抱歉这么说，我甚至觉得说这个很糟糕，但我不得不让你走。
And I'm sorry to say this and I feel horrible about even saying this but I have to let you go.
也许你们可以回想一下自己的感受。
Maybe you guys can reflect on how you felt.
听到了吗？
Hearing that?
嗯，对比一下。
Well, Compare and contrast.
我
I
意思是，你想怎么做都行。
mean Whatever you wanna do.
我觉得挺极端的，但我能理解你的想法，不过，那也是你能解雇别人最专业的方式了。
I think drastic, I can understand where you're coming from, but but also, I mean, that's about as professional of a way as you can let someone go.
就像，虽然听到那些话我会很难过，但我宁愿听到那样的话，也不愿意听到别的。
Like, as upsetting as I would be hearing that, I would much prefer to hear that than the alternative.
就像直接说，你不行。
It's just like, yeah, you suck.
滚出去。
Get out of here.
就像那样，更冲动、更随意，而且没怎么想清楚。
Like, that's more impulsive, spontaneous, and not very well thought out.
而克里斯说的那个，虽然我听到的消息不太好，但很明显，对于我被解雇这件事，他们考虑了很多。
Whereas the what Chris said, while the news I'm hearing is not great, clearly, there was a lot of consideration put into the the thought of of me getting let go.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，约翰，你这么说很有意思。
Well, that's very interesting that you said that, John.
我想回应一下你的感受。
And I wanna just respond to how you felt.
那就是，其实没有那么多考虑，因为我得根据目前的情况马上处理这件事。
Is that there wasn't any consideration because I had to deal with this situation right now, given the circumstances.
没有几周的准备，也没有写好的稿子。
There wasn't weeks of preparation or script writing.
我就是凭直觉开始，然后跟着直觉走。
I just started out with the gut and I let the gut lead me.
但与其拿我刚才那种说法和那种糟糕的做法相比，那种做法就是‘你很蠢，你被解雇了，滚出我的办公室’。
But rather than comparing the way I just said that versus the horrible way of doing that which is you're stupid, you're fired, get out of my office.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
对比一下谢丽尔的做法和我的做法，看看有什么不同和细微差别。
Compare and contrast that to what the difference and the nuance between the way Cheryl did it and the way that I did it.
你听出什么区别了吗？
Did you hear any differences?
因为我会告诉你，但我想看看你能不能自己发现。
Because I will tell you but I wanna see if you can pick that up.
也许亚伦，你对此有些见解。
Maybe Aaron, you have some insight on this.
我觉得你的说法更侧重于我们俩之间不太合适这一点。
I felt like you you yours focused more on the fact that it's not a good fit between the both of us.
而你呢？
Versus?
而谢丽尔可能是在说，虽然话多了些，但意思是你做得不好。
Versus maybe Cheryl was saying like, in more words than these, but you're not doing a good
工作。
job.
对。
Yeah.
谢丽尔的做法，如果要说的话，似乎把责任完全推给了对方，而你则把它变成了双方的合作关系，觉得这对我们俩都不合适。
Cheryl's Cheryl's, seemed like the blame, if you wanna call it, that was placed entirely on the person, whereas you made it more of a mutual partnership and that this just isn't gonna work for both of us.
所以这有点像减轻了负担。
So it's almost like easing the weight a little bit.
嗯，我学到的是，我不想在这一点上纠结细节。
Well, the thing that I've learned is I don't want to focus on specifics at this point.
我想直接说到重点。
I want to get to the end.
我想先做个铺垫，你注意到我基本上没提任何问题，因为不管对方有没有那个意思，一旦你开始指出他们所有的毛病，我就会觉得自己被攻击了。
I want to have a little bit of a setup and you notice I kind of glossed over any issues whatsoever because whether anybody intends or not, but when you start to point out everything that's wrong with them, now I feel like I'm being attacked.
而当你被攻击时，你就会想为自己辩护。
And when you get attacked, you wanna defend yourself.
这时候人们就会说，不，我没有，我来了，为什么玛丽升职了，而我却被解雇了。
That's when people are like, no I didn't, I showed up and why is Mary getting a promotion, I'm getting fired.
他们就会陷入这种情绪化的状态。
They get into this emotional thing.
我们知道这本来就是情绪化的事情。
We know that's emotional to begin with.
我想做的是缓和局势。
What I wanna do is I wanna deescalate the situation.
我想让大家冷静下来，保持非情绪化，因为这本来就是情绪化的事情。
I want to calm everybody down and keep it non emotional because it's already an emotional thing to begin with.
我不想吵架。
I don't want to have a fight.
我不想说别人很差劲之类的话。
I don't want to tell somebody they're lousy and all these kinds of things.
我只想说这不合适。
I just wanna say it's not a good fit.
就是不适合。
It's just not.
我处境很为难，但我只能让你走。
I'm in a horrible position and I gotta just let you go.
信不信由你，当我这么做并且做对的时候，人们会向我道歉。
And believe it or not, when I do this and I do this right, people apologize to me.
很抱歉让你做出这个决定。
I'm sorry that you had to make this decision.
很抱歉我没能满足公司的需求。
I'm sorry that I couldn't fulfill whatever the company needed.
然后这就打开了门，你知道，如果你需要好的推荐，别不好意思向我要。
And then that opens the door for you know if you need a good referral, don't be shy to ask me for one.
我非常乐意为你做这件事。
I'd be more than happy to do that for you.
如果我听说有更适合你的工作机会，我会告诉他们，然后我们都可以昂首挺胸地离开。
And if I hear of a job opening I think is a better fit for you, I'll let them know and then they can we can all walk away with our heads held high.
好吗？
Okay?
我想跟你多说一点。
And I want to tell you this a little bit.
当我的孩子们还小的时候，每次我们管教他们，我注意到我妻子会说，看着我。
When my kids were a little bit younger, whenever we would discipline our kids, I noticed something about my wife and she would say, well, look at me.
感觉你好像没在听。
It feels like you're not paying attention.
我的孩子会低下头，看向角落。
My kid would look down kind of to the corner.
我想，是的，你说得对。
And I thought, yeah, you're right.
他看起来好像没在听。
He doesn't seem like he's paying attention.
就像，我跟你说话、教训你的时候，你得看着我。
Like, look at me when I'm talking to you, when I'm lecturing to you.
我要指出你哪里做错了。
And I want to point out what you did wrong.
我需要看到你的眼睛正对着我的眼睛。
I need to know that your eyes are looking at mine.
然后呢，我听到了一件很有意思的事。
And then you know, I heard something really interesting.
你知道狗在群体里是怎么相处的吗？如果你跟狗对视，你就是头狗。
You know the way that dogs work in packs is that if you make eye contact, you're the alpha dog.
所以他们告诉跑步的人，当你在街上跑步看到一只狗时，不要跟它对视。
And so they tell runners, when you're running in the street and you see a dog in the street, don't make eye contact with a dog.
如果你跟它对视，就是在挑战它，它肯定会扑上来咬你。
If you do, you challenge him and he's bound to lunge at you and bite you.
所以把目光移开，看向角落，别去挑战他。
So look away, look to the corner, keep your eye on challenge him.
所以我在想，在这种妈妈、老板、或者父母的层级关系里，对方其实只想顺从你，而你不想去挑战他们。
So I was thinking that in this hierarchy of mom, boss, whatever it is, parent, the other person just wants to be submissive to you and you don't wanna challenge them.
所以，与其说“你知道你做了什么吗？”
So by saying, do you know what you did?
“你就是这么失败的。”
This is how you failed.
“你没做到这个，我实在没法信任你。”
You didn't do this and I just can't trust you.
你几乎是在逼他们直视你的眼睛，跟你对着干，而不是让他们把目光移开。
You're almost asking them to look at you back in the eye and to challenge you rather than letting them look away.
因为我们都清楚权力结构是什么样的，没必要捶胸顿足、训斥对方。
Because that's what they We all know what the power structure is like, there's no point in beating our chest and berating the person.
让他们体面地离开，昂首挺胸，这样他们回家跟男朋友、女朋友、爸妈、亲戚说的时候，只会说事情没成。
Let them slip out with grace, head held high, and so when they go home and they tell their boyfriend, girlfriend, mom, dad, cousin, things didn't work out.
我们不合适，而不是说，妈妈，谢丽尔让我走了。
We're not a good fit versus mom, Cheryl let me go.
她说我工作做得不好。
She said, I wasn't doing a good job.
我不能依赖她，还有谢丽尔说的另外两件事。然后妈妈就说，去他的谢丽尔，去他的那家公司。
I can't be dependent on and whatever two other things that Cheryl said, And that's when mom says, well, screw Cheryl, screw that company.
我明天就给我们的雇佣律师打电话。
I'm gonna call our employment attorney tomorrow.
这是非法解雇，因为你根本没做那些事。
That's a wrongful dismissal because you're in anything but those things.
天哪。
Oh my God.
那这件事就没完没了了。
So then this thing is not gonna get put to bed.
然后谢丽尔就被她的主管叫进办公室，问她对吉米做了什么。
Then Cheryl gets pulled into the office by her supervisor like, what did you do to Jimmy?
对。
Mhmm.
我们现在有个诉讼案子。
We have an appointment lawsuit right now.
不当解雇，什么？
Wrongful dismissal, what?
所有这些事情。
All these kinds of things.
所以我想去掉那些指责别人的部分，免得把人拉进争斗里。
So I want to remove the parts where I'm accusing somebody to draw them into a fight.
你没意识到，但事实就是这样。
You don't realize it but that's what's happening.
我以前不听这个建议，结果吃了亏。
And I've gone against this advice before only to pay for it.
我发誓，有个女人为我工作过。
I swear to God, there's a woman who worked for me.
非常有才华的设计师。
Very talented designer.
她就是不能准时上班。
She just wasn't showing up to work on time.
来晚一点，走早一点，午饭时间也长一点。
Come in a little late, leave a little early, lunch is a little long.
我走进办公室，说，你知道，事情是这样的，你很有才华，但如果你不出现，我不能留你。
I pulled into my office and I said, know, here's the deal, you're super talented but I can't have you if you don't show up.
对你来说，每天给我好好工作七个小时或八个小时，这是职业素养。
It's just professional for you to give me a good seven hours every day or good eight hours.
我就要求你这些。
That's all I want from you.
如果我还得再跟你谈这件事，因为我已经警告过你两次了，那这将是我们最后一次谈。
And if I have to talk to you about this again because I've warned you twice now, it'll be the last time we have this conversation.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you understand me?
是的，我完全明白你的意思。
Yeah, I totally understand you.
还是迟到，还是迟到。
Comes in late, comes in late.
我深吸一口气，把这位女士叫进办公室，说，你知道吗，我得让你走了。
Took a deep breath, called this woman into my office, I said, you know what, I gotta let you go.
她问我为什么。
She asked me why?
我说，你还记得之前那次谈话吗？
I said, do you remember that conversation from before?
我不想细说。
I wanna don't get into the details.
她说，不记得。
She goes, no.
你在说什么？
What are you talking about?
然后我说，你知道吗，你总是不能准时来上班。
And I said, you know, you're not coming in on time.
大家总是在想你在哪里。
People are always wondering where you are.
她说，不。
He goes, no.
那不是真的。
That's not true.
我就像，我周二和周四都准时到了。
I've like, I showed up on time on Tuesday, on Thursday.
我们就这样吵了起来。
She we get into whole this thing.
我就说，你知道吗？
I'm like, you know what?
那把她安排到别处怎么样？
What about placing her
在周二？
on Tuesday?
你懂我的意思吧？
You know I'm saying?
对。
Yeah.
你知道
You know
你现在的情况就是这样。
you're This is what's going on.
她之所以坚持，是因为我们天生就会为自己辩护。
She's like digging in because it's natural for us to defend ourselves.
我们觉得自己的品格受到了攻击。
We feel our character is being attacked.
那是我最后一次犯那种错误。
And that that's the last time I made that mistake.
所以我们想坚持己见。
So we want to dig in.
我就想，你知道吗？
I'm like, know what?
我觉得我们已经讨论过这个了。
I think we've gone over this.
我觉得现在谈这个对我没有好处。
I don't think it's productive for me to talk about it.
我真的这么觉得。
I really don't.
你知道吗，不如你先回家，整理一下思路，过几个星期，我们再找个时间聊聊。
Know, why don't you go home, collect your thoughts and at another time, weeks from now, we'll have a conversation about it.
到时候我会告诉你我的想法，我觉得那样对我们都好。
I'll be able to tell you and I think we'll be be a lot happy for it.
所以我不想给他那个理由。
So I don't wanna give him that reason.
现在来说说约翰。
Now let's get to John.
好的。
Okay.
来说说我吧。
Let's get to me.
对吧？
Right?
所以约翰感受到了所有这些。
So John is feeling all these things.
现在看看约翰能不能把在这里学到的东西用上。
Now let's see if John can apply what he learned here.
你再来一遍这段对话。
Let's you do the conversation again.
好。
K.
你要跟你的演员说话，所以直接对着麦克风说，假装你又回到了那个时刻，让他知道他一文不值。
You're gonna talk to your actor, so speak right into the mic and pretend you're in the moment again and let him know that he's worthless.
嘿，老兄。
Hey, man.
到目前为止，这真的很有趣。
So this has been really fun so far.
天哪，我真希望我记得我开场时说的那个笑话。
God, I wish I remember the joke I let off with.
不过，我们就叫他达里尔吧。
But anyway, we'll we'll call him Daryl.
那甚至都不接近他的名字。
That was not even close to his name.
嘿，达里尔。
Hey, Daryl.
所以，不幸的是，我对这个项目的设想目前进展不顺利。
So, unfortunately, the vision that I have for this project is not working out so far.
而且，你知道，虽然我真的很喜欢你的试镜，但我们在这里做的事情对我来说不太合适。
And and as much as, you know, I I really liked your audition, what what we're doing here isn't clicking the right way for me.
而且这很大程度上是我的愿景，只是对我们俩来说都不太顺利。
And it's it's it's very much my vision that that just isn't working out for the both of us.
不幸的是，我们得在这里分道扬镳了，我得找别人来和我更好地合作。
And unfortunately, I'm we're gonna have to part ways here, and I'm gonna have to find someone else who who will be able to collaborate with me a a little better.
我希望将来如果有什么机会，我们还能再次合作。
I hope that should something work out in the future, we could work together again.
天哪，我真希望我能记得那次对话的具体内容，因为克里斯现在正在给我打一些疯狂的手势，告诉我这绝对是最糟糕的。
Boy, I could I wish I could remember where the the exact conversation I had because Chris is giving me some wild hand gestures right now, telling me that this is just the absolute worst.
不。
No.
我告诉你，结束吧。
I'm telling you wrap
结束吧。
it up.
是的。
Yeah.
我
I
现在你们在收音机前看不到，但约翰的脸现在真的很红。
Now you guys you guys can't see this on the radio but John's face is really red right now.
他确实。
He's True.
他的肤色很白，现在红得像番茄一样。
He's got a pretty fair complexion and he's bright bright red as like a tomato.
我刚才
I just
在脑海里重温了这个糟糕的情况，我再也不想回去了。
relived this horrible situation in my head and I'd never wanna go back.
我们稍微回顾一下。
Let's review a little bit.
我觉得有意思的是，而且可能有人会觉得我疯了，约翰处理这件事的方式几乎没变。
The interesting thing to me, and somebody else telling me I'm crazy here, is that John barely changed how he approached it.
听起来就像是一个翻版，只是细节更多，结尾更啰嗦。
It almost sound like a carbon copy with more detail and more fluff at the end.
有人同意或不同意吗？
Anybody wanna agree or disagree?
对。
Yeah.
我，我正想着你提醒了我一件事，就是当有人要告诉我坏消息时，如果他们把它包装得很好，然后用那种语气跟我说话，比如‘我很抱歉’，‘哦’之类的。
I I was thinking you were just reminding me of something that I've thought of, which is, like, when someone's gonna give me bad news, if they like really dress it up and they talk to me like in this kind of voice, like, I'm sorry, like, oh.
那只会让我更烦，因为你就像……
It just annoys me more because it's like you're like
你在拐弯抹角。
You're beating around the bush.
你……
You're
绕弯子。
around the bush.
我是个男人，我能承受
I'm a man, I can take
哦，天哪，直接告诉我吧，你知道，就直说怎么回事。
Oh man, give me it straight, know, like just tell me what's up.
你不喜欢我的表现，你得让我
You don't like my performance and you're gonna have to let
你知道那是什么感觉吗？
me You know what that's like?
就像医生拿着检查结果回来，戴上乳胶手套，你说，直接告诉我吧。
That's like when the doctor comes back with the test results and he slaps on the latex glove and you say, give it me straight.
或者他打开文件夹，给我那种表情，像是有坏消息，然后合上文件夹，挠了挠头。
Or he like opens his folder and he gives me that face like, I got some bad news and he closes it and he scratches it.
快说吧，兄弟，就像这样。
Spit it out man, like.
有趣的是，实际对话在现实生活中进行得还挺顺利的。
Well what's funny is that the actual conversation went pretty well in real life.
但现在回想起来，对。
But me recalling it now Right.
我当时真想给自己一拳。
I would have punched me in the face.
我们有些人可能得给你一拳。
Some of us might have to punch
对。
you in the face.
对。
Yeah.
还记得我跟你们说过，要留意你的感觉，那种直觉吗？
So remember how I said to you guys, be aware of your feeling, that gut?
约翰一开始并不是那样的。
John didn't start there.
不是。
Nope.
从那里开始，把情况说清楚，好吗？
Start there, illuminate what's going on, okay?
你感到没有安全感。
You're feeling insecure.
感觉不好。
Feel bad.
你感觉时间在流逝，你感到糟糕，你感到难受，你感到所有这些情绪，但你却没有说出来。
You're feeling like time is slipping away and you're feeling horrible, you're feeling bad, you're feeling all these kinds of things but you're not talking about them.
我不知道是不是因为我比你们年长，我知道我比这个房间里的每个人都大，我接受自己，也接受别人喜欢或不喜欢我，因为说实话，我真的不在乎。
I don't know if it's because I'm older than you guys, I know I'm older than everybody in this room, is that I'm okay with being me and I'm okay with somebody liking me or not liking me cause I just honestly I just really don't care.
光是喜欢我自己就已经够难的了。
It's hard enough for me just to like me.
我现在可没时间去讨好你。
I got no time to try to impress you at this point.
所以我试着跟对方说，带着一定的觉察和临在感去谈，我意识到我脑子里正在发生这些，我现在就告诉你。
And so I try to say to the person and have a level of awareness and being present to talk about, I'm aware that this is happening in my mind and I'm gonna tell it to you right now.
我会一步步来，然后得出一个结论，但我不会等一个小时才得出结论，因为那太痛苦了，而且人们会失去所有兴趣。
I'm gonna go through the steps and then when I arrive at the conclusion, but I'm not gonna wait for an hour to reach the conclusion because that's like painful and then people lose everything.
我们知道我们的注意力持续时间很短，所以我们必须直奔主题。
We know that our attention span is fairly short, so we gotta get to it.
我们必须尽快切入正题。
We gotta get to it fairly quickly.
我刚才想说的是，你说因为你年纪大了，所以更能觉察自己的感受，但我觉得你有点忽略了一个关键点，就是那个引擎。
I was just gonna mention that you said it's because you're older that you're kind of more present to how you feel, but, like, something key that I feel like maybe you glossed over a bit is, like, the engine.
你只是描述了引擎，但我觉得也许约翰也看到了，我也是这样。
Just describe the engine, but, like, I think maybe with John, we kinda just saw it too, and I'm the same way.
我不知道怎么准确解释那个引擎。
I don't know how to accurately explain the engine.
有引擎吗？
Is there an engine?
谁在开这趟火车？
Who's driving this train?
不是，是的。
Not to yeah.
是列车长吗？
Is it a conductor?
对。
Yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就像，我在最后一节车厢，我不知道火车前面发生了什么。
Like, I'm in the caboose, and I don't know what's going on up in front of train.
那这是什么问题呢？
So what is that an issue of?
我不知道。
I don't know.
就是，我也不知道。
Like, I don't know.
沟通问题。
Communication.
自我反思？
Self reflection?
理解自己的感受真的很难。
Understanding how you feel, that's really hard.
如果我知道自己的感受，而且能跟你解释清楚，我肯定会说的。
If I knew how I felt and I could explain to you, would totally do it.
这就是我们现在聊这个的原因，对我来说，这种情况已经持续很久了，我得回到自己的脑子里问自己，这是我想想的吗？这是我想感受的吗？
Well that's why we're talking about this right now is that it's been this way for me for a very long time to crawl back into my own brain and to ask myself, is this what I want to think, is this how I want to feel?
艾伦，我觉得我以前跟你讲过这个故事。
I think I told you this story before, Aaron.
我小时候，大概八九岁吧，丢了生日或春节收到的钱。
Even when I was a little kid, probably eight or nine years old, I lost some money from a birthday or Chinese New Year.
大概就是20美元吧。
It was like, say $20.
三十年前，20美元对一个孩子来说是一笔不小的数目。
And $20 to a kid thirty years ago, that was a substantial amount of money.
是的。
Yes.
我当时感觉糟透了。
And and, like, I felt horrible.
我就想，我把这钱放哪儿了？
I was like, where did I put this money?
我问了所有人，你们看见了吗？
I asked everybody, did you see it?
我以为是有人偷了。
I was thinking somebody stole it.
然后我又想，我的家人，我的亲人会偷我的东西吗？
Like, then I was thinking, would my family, my own family members steal from me?
我当时太粗心了。
I was careless.
我把钱放在某个地方，结果心里一直很难受。
I left this money somewhere and it was tearing me up inside.
我感觉胃里像打了结，那种疼痛，还有那种紧张，整个人都紧绷着，坐立不安。
I was feeling the knots in my stomach and that kind of pain and this nervous, like everything was really tight, fidgety.
然后我就在想，有一种很糟糕的感觉，我想那叫后悔。
And I was thinking, have this horrible feeling, I think it's called regret.
那叫后悔，我在自己脑子里爬着说，好吧，就算你再怎么后悔丢了这笔钱，它能让你丢的钱重新回来吗？
It's called regret and I crawled in my own brain and said, well, as much as you regret losing this, will it ever reproduce the amount of money that you lost?
我记得我当时想，不能。
And I remember thinking, no, it won't.
再多的后悔也没用。
No amount of regret.
所以后来我就做了个决定，后悔是一种没用的情绪。
So then I started making this decision, regret is a useless emotion.
我九岁、十岁时就和自己这样对话，这其实就是深入自己的大脑去思考，保持正念。你问我正念真的重要吗？
Having this dialogue with myself at nine, 10 years old, this is really about crawling into your own brain and thinking about this being mindful and you ask me is mindfulness really important?
是的，因为你需要知道你是怎么想的，以及为什么你会这么想，因为如果你不喜欢，你可以做出改变。
Yes, is because you need to know how you think and why you think what you think because if you don't like it, you can make a change.
所以如果你活在车厢里，从车厢里沟通，在车厢里做决定，那可不是个好地方，因为车厢是被火车头拉着的，你根本不知道它要去哪里。
So if you're living in the caboose, communicating from the caboose, making decisions in the caboose, that's not a great place because it's being pulled by the train and you have no idea where it's going.
这就是关键所在。
And this is the critical part.
所以有时候可能是因为没有词汇，或者只是因为我们对自己思考的事情想得不够多。
So sometimes it's about maybe not having the vocabulary, the words or maybe it's just because we haven't done enough thinking about the things that we think about.
花点时间，反思一下你思考的事情。
Take a moment, reflect on the things that you think about.
为什么你选择向左而不是向右？
Why do you choose to go left versus right?
为什么穿这件衬衫而不是那条裤子？
Put on this shirt versus that pant.
为什么你会对外界的刺激，尤其是变化，做出那样的反应？
Why do you respond the way you do to outside stimulation especially change?
你是倾向于退缩，逃避变化吗？
Do you tend to recede, run away from change?
还是倾向于拥抱变化，迎向它？
Do you tend to embrace it, run towards change?
这些都是你应该意识到的事情，至少要知道自己是在做有意识的决定。
All these things are things that you should become aware of and to at least know you're making a deliberate decision.
我去看过心理医生，大概十几次吧。
Now I've gone to see a therapist probably about a dozen times or so.
那位心理医生教了我很多不同的东西。
And that therapist taught me lots of different things.
我学到的一件事是，我们成年后的很多行为和反应，其实都和过去的某个记忆或时刻有关。
One of the things I learned was that a lot of how we behave and react in our life as an adult is actually connected to a past memory in a moment.
所以当我们见面时，比如说，这完全是假设性的。
So when we meet, let's say, this is totally hypothetical here.
比如说，一个很专横的女人，会让你生气，几乎是暴怒。
Let's say a woman that's really bossy and it makes you angry almost like violently angry.
这不是因为她专横，很可能是因为你妈妈对你爸爸或对你很专横，而你小时候无力反抗。
It's not because she's bossy, it's probably because your mom was really bossy to your dad or to you and you're powerless as a child to react to that.
现在在你成年生活中，任何让你想起那件事的东西，即使你非常爱你的妈妈，也会让你火冒三丈。
And now in your adult life, anything that reminds you of that even though you love your mom to death, anything that reminds you of that drives you up the wall.
但奇怪的是，你仍然被这样的女人吸引。
But oddly enough, you're still attracted to women like that.
这是一种奇怪的矛盾。
It's this weird dichotomy.
所以，除非你意识到你只会爱上这样的女人，然后她们又让你发疯。
So until you recognize that you only fall in love with women like that, who then only drive you crazy.
所以，这就是意识成为你强大工具的地方。
So this is where the awareness becomes a powerful tool for you.
我们喜欢熟悉的事物。
We like things that are familiar to us.
所以很奇怪，我对此一无所知，但那些了解的人说，酗酒者的子女，或者父母酗酒的孩子，往往会在感情中要么自己成为酗酒者，要么去支持一个酗酒者，因为这对他们来说很熟悉。
So oddly enough, and I don't I don't know anything about this, but people who do know, children that are survivors of alcoholics, parents, tend to be in relationships where they're either the alcoholic or they're supporting an alcoholic because it feels familiar to them.
这真是件奇怪的事。
And it's this weird thing.
如果你有虐待你的父母，你最终可能会成为施虐者，或者陷入一段受虐的关系，处于受害的一方。
If you have an abusive parent, wind up being an abuser or in an abusive relationship where you're at the bad end of that.
只是因为熟悉。
It just is familiar.
在上一期播客中，我们谈到了文化，以及公司里没有文化契合度的问题。
And the last podcast we talked about culture and how there wasn't a culture fit here at the company.
那是因为有些人在非常戏剧化的家庭中长大。
And that was because there are certain people who grew up in really dramatic households.
家里总是充满戏剧性。
There was drama all the time.
所以当他们来到办公室，一切都很顺利时，他们反而感到不稳定。
So when they came to the office, they felt unstable when everything was running really smoothly.
所以当一切顺利的时候，他们反而会制造出一些问题来。
So when nothing was going wrong, they would invent something to go wrong.
他们会比较。
They would compare.
他们会说，我本来挺开心的，但我注意到约翰尼在做那个工作，为什么你不选我做那个工作呢？
They would say, I was really happy but then I noticed Johnny's doing that job and why why didn't you pick me for that job?
哦，你当时很忙。
Oh, you were really busy.
其实没有，我并没有。
Well, no, I wasn't.
我的意思是，我本来可以承担更多工作的。
I mean, I could have taken on more.
你应该问我的。
You should have asked me.
那会让我发疯，而且确实让我发疯了。
That's gonna drive me crazy and it did drive me crazy.
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