157 - 什么是体验设计？——与大卫·施瓦茨对话

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欢迎回到我们的对话。

Welcome back to our conversation.

跟我讲讲你和客户进行的高层次对话。

Take me through the high level conversations you're having with a client.

假设我是HBO，可能对你们所做的事、你们的思维方式和工作方式不太了解。

Say I'm HBO, and maybe I'm not so familiar with the things that you do and how you think and work.

你会如何引导我？比如，大卫，我们想要所有酷炫的功能——但那确实是第一步吗？

How do you guide me through the process of like, David, we want all the whiz bangs that well, like, that's the first right?

我们想进入《创：战纪2025》之类的项目，不管那是什么。

Like, we wanna be in Tron 2025 or whatever it is.

然后你就说，等等，等等，等等。

And you're, woah, woah, woah.

比如，你会帮助他们做出明智的决定，最终让他们得到真正想要的东西，而不是像暴发户那样去买一辆镀金的宾利之类的东西吗？

Like, do you help them make smart decisions that ultimately give them what they want without them, you know, like the Nouveau Riche who go out and buy a gold plated Bentley or something like that?

比如，我们不想那样做。

Like, oh, we don't wanna do that.

你是怎么引导他们走过这个过程的？

How do you guide them through that process?

你会问些什么问题，以便准确了解他们的状况，从而与他们站在同一立场，提供你擅长的创意洞察？

And what are you asking so that you can get a good sense of where they're at so that you can meet them there and deliver the creative genius that you do?

这是一个精彩又复杂的问题。

Amazing and complicated question.

我们一步一步来。

Let's do piece by piece.

好的。

Okay.

我们工作在一个非常小众的行业，你知道的，我非常喜欢。

So we work in a very niche industry, you know, I love it.

但当你放眼整个设计领域的广阔图景时，这个行业就显得非常小众，因此很少有客户会偶然发现我们并说：‘这是什么？’

But it's niche when you look at the broad landscape of what design can be, which means few clients stumble and fall on us and say, Oh, what is that?

我们正希望如此，对吧？

We want that, right?

你可能已经见过某种东西，或者在内部建立了一套价值主张，来解释为什么你会以Hush的方式体验设计。

You kind of probably have seen something or have created a value prop internally that justifies why you would experience design in the way that Hush does it.

所以很少有客户是完全无知的，对吧？

So very few clients come with zero knowledge, right?

他们可能懂到足以伤害自己，但我们几乎从不处于需要从零开始教育他们、让他们完全理解我们所做一切的对话中。

They may have enough knowledge to hurt themselves, but they're very, we're very rarely in a dialogue where we're educating them from zero to, you know, a 100% of what we do.

我们更多是在进行精炼，展示我们做什么、我们如何融入其中。

We're doing a lot of refining and showing what we do, how we fit in.

因此，这更多是关于筛选和塑造我们目标、使命以及我们比任何人都更擅长的地方。

So it's more about like qualifying and sculpting exactly what our purpose is, our mission is, and what we do better than anyone else.

那我们就从这里开始。

So let's start there.

让我们把那些搜索了 Hush 和体验设计、并提出基础问题的人排除掉。

Let's carve off all the folks who Googled Hush and Experience Design and you know, are asking baseline questions.

我们公司有六个设计原则，其中之一是使用技术但要有所节制。

We have six design principles at the company and one of them is use technology but with restraint.

这就是原因。

And here's why.

在 Hush 发展的这个阶段，我们曾经像摇滚新星一样闪耀过。

At this point in the history of Hush, we kind of did our like rockstar new kid thing.

你知道，每个工作室都会经历那样的时刻，大家都觉得，哇，这很新颖。

You know, everyone has that sort of studio moment where everyone's just like, oh, that's new.

酷。

Cool.

你能用这个做点什么吗？

Like, can you do something with that?

我们听到了这一点。

And we heard about this.

你能试试这个吗？

Can you try that?

然后你就说，好吧。

And you're like, okay.

我们现在所处的阶段更注重企业思维，来找我们的都是像优步、脸书、领英以及巴克莱银行这样的大型公司。

And we're at a place now where it's much more about like enterprise thinking, Where the companies coming to us who are large companies like Uber and Facebook and LinkedIn and financial companies like Barclays and whatever.

这些公司并不追求最新、最炫、最前沿、敢于冒险的技术。

These aren't companies that are, they're not about like the latest, greatest, shiniest, cutting edge, risk it all kind of technology.

它们内部有专门的研发部门负责这类创新。

They have innovation in R and D as part of the company that does that.

但如果它们要建设空间，投入数月乃至数千万美元，打造那些将在地球上长期存在的东西，它们不太可能把全部赌注押在某种未经检验的热门新技术上。

But if they're going to build out spaces, spend many, many, many months and many, many, many millions of dollars to build things that are gonna be with us on this planet for a long time, they're probably not willing to bet the farm on some like hotshot, new untested tech.

因此，我们的对话变成了：是的，我们的研发团队确实在尝试各种新技术。

So the conversation becomes, yes, our R and D team is playing with all the stuff.

他们在研究传感器，研究交互模型，研究人工智能和机器学习，研究大数据知识，研究生成式技术，研究手势界面，所有这些。

Playing with sensors, playing with interactive models, playing with AI machine learning, playing with big database knowledge, playing with generative blah, playing with gestural interface, all of that.

但我们也在通过价值和持久性的视角来筛选这些技术。

But we're also filtering it through the lens of value and longevity and something that's more enduring.

然后我们帮助他们做出明智的决策。

And then we're helping them make smart decisions.

所以，举个经典的例子，他们可能会说：是的，我们想做点特别酷的东西。

So, you know, here's like a classic thing might be like, yeah, we want to do something super cool.

有人提到了全息投影，那确实很酷。

And like, you know, somebody mentioned holograms and that would be so cool.

这时候你就立刻警觉起来，就像在Slack上收到一堆提醒，我们在通话中疯狂打字：等等，等等，等等，等等，等等。

And you're just like, that's like when all the bells go off, like on Slack, we're like slacking each other on a call because you're Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

好吧。

Okay.

我们必须帮助每个人理解这到底意味着什么。

We gotta help everyone understand what that means.

‘全息图’这个说法只是用来代表一些很酷的东西。

And holograms in quotes is like a stand in for something cool.

我不知道该怎么形容它。

I don't know how to describe it.

它可能根本不是全息图，但看起来像。

It might not even be a hologram, but it looks like one.

我们需要帮助。

We need help.

我们需要理解这些技术的价值主张以及原因。

And we need to understand the value proposition for any of this technology and why.

所以归根结底，就是要帮助他们明白：我们了解最新的技术，但那未必是最佳选择。

And so at the end of the day, just becomes about like helping them know that we know the latest greatest, but that might not be the choice.

事实上，我可以告诉你，我们曾帮助许多客户选择更老旧、更简单的技术，而不是前沿技术，因为它们更能契合他们想要打造的体验。

In fact, I can tell you we've helped many clients choose older tech, dumber tech than cutting edge tech because it just aligned better with what they want to create as an experience.

他们很开心，我们也感到满意。

And they were happy and we were happy.

我的意思是，回到那个生物技术公司，这个项目在我们的网站上。

I mean, back to that biotech company, the project is on our website.

做了一个直径60英尺的灯光雕塑，安置在大楼的大中庭里。

Did a 60 foot diameter lighting sculpture that was in the big atrium of the building.

其中唯一复杂的技术是一些用于数据可视化的后台软件。

And the only complicated tech in that was some backend software to do some data viz.

但前端只是大量不锈钢鳍片和已经存在了二十年的照明设备。

But the front end was a bunch of stainless steel fins and lighting that's been around for twenty years.

所以它比任何更高级的技术方案都更好地完成了任务，而且效果非常强大。

So it did the job better than any higher tech solution could do, and it was really powerful.

所以，总之，我认为这是一种坦诚的态度。

So anyway, I think it's like an honesty with it.

我们并不是为了推技术而推技术。

We're not just pushing to push.

对。

Right.

这需要很多克制。

There's a lot of restraint.

否则它无法发挥应有的作用，也很难让客户满意并经得起时间考验。

Otherwise it's not going to do its job, think, and probably won't age well for the client.

这会对你造成负面影响。

And that reflects poorly on you.

没错。

Exactly.

他们把现有的东西拆掉，因为人们会觉得：天啊，这简直是个灾难。

They rip out what's there because people are like, oh, this is a disaster.

因为我们选了那辆金色的宾利，而你并没有劝住我们，戴夫。

Because we went with the gold Bentley You didn't talk us out of it, Dave.

你怎么能这样呢？

How could you?

对吧？

Right?

我

I

我的意思是，看看你的工作室或者我这里的房间。

mean, look around your studio or my room here.

每一件我曾经认为很了不起、设计精良的技术产品，比如那辆宾利，现在都变成了搁在架子上的砖头，或者被堆在一堆里的可穿戴健身追踪器；我们吞噬这些东西的速度真是惊人。

It's like every piece of technology that I thought was amazing and designed and the Bentley is now a brick on a shelf or a wearable fitness tracker that is added to the pile or it's like, it's stunning how fast we devour this stuff.

所以当你在进行建筑规模的设计时，你必须考虑到这种技术的持久性，不仅是在硬件层面，也在软件层面，对吧？

And so when you're building at architectural scale, you have to think of that technological permanence, not just in the hardware side, but also the software side, right?

我有个问题想问你，可能会让你有点措手不及。

I have this question for you, which might throw you off a little bit.

你现在在你的家庭办公室里吗？

Are you in your home office right now?

我现在就在我的家庭办公室里。

I am in my home office right now.

问题是这样。

Here's the question.

同时也兼作客房。

Which doubles as a guest bedroom.

好的。

Okay.

我一直很好奇，因为我刚看了你为优步做的那个项目，那些灯光在周围飞驰。

I always wondered this because I just looked at the thing that you did for Uber, the lights racing around.

是的。

Yeah.

太美了。

Beautiful.

那让我意识到，我对自己的办公室的思考方式不对。

That's what got me like, I'm not thinking about my office the right way.

当然，我没有那么多钱、时间和创意去做这些事，但它为我树立了一个很高的标杆。

Of course, don't have the money and the time and the creativity to do all that stuff, but it set a very high benchmark for me.

我一直想知道，关于建筑师，还有你。

I've always wondered this about architects and then you.

为什么建筑师的办公室总是看起来像他们设计过最糟糕的地方？

How come architects' office always look like the dumpiest places they've ever designed?

然后我就想，他们在家里是什么样子。

And then I wonder what it's like for them at home.

是不是因为你一直忙着为别人设计空间，以至于不想回到家里那种环境？

And is it always that you're so busy crafting spaces for other people that you don't want to go back home to something like that?

我看你的办公室，有雕花线脚、镶板木门、金色镜子，还有后面挂着一块冲浪板。

I look at your office, it looks like a traditional home with crown molding, paneled wood doors, and a gold mirror, and a surfboard in the back.

这跟我想象中一位经验丰富的21世纪设计师、一家公司的负责人谈论这些事情的样子完全不一样。

Is not how I imagine a twenty first century experienced designer, a guy who runs a firm talking about these things.

我本以为你的办公室会是你的疯狂蝙蝠洞，到处都是各种实验装置。

I imagine this is your crazy Batman cave with all kinds of experiments running around in the background.

这是一个有趣且非常个人化的观察。

That's an interesting and very personal observation.

我想，嗯，有几种现象，对吧？

I think, you know, well, there's a couple of phenomena, right?

一个是鞋匠的孩子没鞋穿的问题，对吧？

One is the cobbler's kids have no shoes problem, right?

也就是说，你花更多时间专注于占据你大部分日常的事情，比如客户和工作之类的东西。

Which is, you know, you do spend a lot more time intensely focusing on the things that occupy the bulk of your day, which is clients and work and things like that.

而且你在这些事情上消耗了大量精力。

And you expend a lot of energy doing that.

我的意思是，因为我热爱我所做的事情，所以我把很多精力投入到事业中，这并不是因为总是被要求这么做，而是因为我愿意把精力放在那里。

I mean, find that like, because I love what I do, I spend a lot of energy outwards in the business, not because it's necessarily always demanded of me, but because it's like, it's where I would love to put the energy.

你知道，我通常没有足够的精力回来重新启动这里的大项目。

And you know, I don't often have enough left, you know, to come back and restart giant projects here.

但另一点是，如果你问我理想中的居住环境或理想的空间是什么，那应该是空旷的，由材质构成的，也许唯一数字化的东西是灯光和声音。

The other thing though is if you ask me like what would be a perfect place to live or a perfect space to be in, it would be empty and it would be material and it would be, and maybe the only digital thing in it would be lighting and sound.

你知道，它不会有屏幕。

You know, it wouldn't have screens.

它不会有界面。

It wouldn't have interfaces.

它不会有这些，但这并不意味着这些东西就是坏的或没有价值的。

It wouldn't have, and that's not to say those things are bad or not valuable.

显然，我们的整个业务都建立在这些之上。

Obviously our whole business runs on that.

但我想让自己置身其中的环境，作为整天思考的事情的反差，恰恰与之完全相反。

But the context that I want to be in as an offset for the things I think about all day is a really antithesis to that.

这几乎像是一种更冥想的空间。

It's almost like a more meditative space.

所以，是的，这很容易回答。

So yeah, that's an easy one.

我绝不会像为我们大客户设计空间那样去设计自己的家或家庭办公室，你知道的。

Like I would never design a home space or even a home office in the way that we design spaces for our large clients, you know.

很有趣。

Fascinating.

所以对你来说，因为你整天都沉浸在这种环境中，这几乎就像是一种精神上的漱口液，或者说是味觉的清口剂。

So for you, because you're immersed in this stuff all the time, it's almost like your mental floss or your ginger, a palate cleanser.

所以这是一个非常中性的空间，让你的大脑可以自由地产生新想法。

So it's a very neutral space so that your brain can be free to think of new ideas.

就像你的画布一样空白。

It's like your blank canvas.

所以它不会让你过度刺激，对吧？

So it's not overstimulating you, right?

是的。

Yeah.

但有趣的是，克里斯，就在疫情前一年，我们重新设计了工作室，你知道，这时间点不太妙，但它还在，我们仍然时不时在那里，等一切恢复正常后它还会在那里。

Well, what's interesting Chris too is, you know, like a year before the pandemic, we redesigned our studio, which you know was bad timing, but it's still there and we're still there on and off and it'll be there when everything is normal again.

但你用了‘味觉清道夫’和‘姜’这个词，这很棒。

But you used the word palate cleanser and ginger, which is great.

但‘味觉清道夫’正是我们在工作室里做出的正式改变。

But the palate cleanser was the formal move we made in the studio.

工作室同样极简且注重材质，除了一个特定的画廊区域，我们在那里摆放了大量原型和测试品，让人们能够看到并触摸到我们工作核心元素的放大版本。

The studio is similarly minimalist and material, except for a very specific area of a gallery where we set up a lot of the prototypes and the kind of tests we did so people could see and touch the kind of elemental aspects of what we do at a much larger scale.

这些都是数字化的，很酷。

That's all digital and cool.

但其他所有东西都非常简约。

But everything else is very minimal.

我们和建筑师以及纳瓦·威廉姆斯一起，在进门处设计了一个空间，我觉得那是一个60英尺长的白色挤出盒子。

And what we did was we created with the architects and Nava Williams, we created this volume when you walk in, that's like a, I think it's like a 60 foot white extruded box.

好的。

Okay.

混凝土地板，纯白，纯白，纯白。

And concrete floor, white, white, white.

就是这样。

That's it.

天花板上有一条单一的灯带贯穿其中。

And it's got a single line of light running overhead.

天花板上还有我们定制设计和制作的不锈钢鳍片。

And it's got these stainless steel fins on the ceiling that we custom designed and fabricated.

这些精美的鳍状结构在天花板上形成波浪般的反射效果。

So these really beautifully reflected sort of fins that ripple on the ceiling.

在最初的60英尺空间里，无论是员工、访客、客户还是送货人员，都会对自己的行为和我们极简的设计产生强烈的自我意识。

And all you can do in that first 60 feet, if you're an employee or a guest or a client or a delivery person is be incredibly self conscious around yourself as a human being and the very minimal gestures we made.

你会留意自己的脚步声，以及声音在墙壁间回荡的声响。

And so you're conscious of your steps and the sound ricocheting off the wall.

你会意识到自己的身影和倒影随着你的前行在头顶闪烁。

You're conscious of your image and reflection flickering above you as you kind of progress.

你眼前所见的只是一个通向窗外东河景观的盒子。

And all you see in front of you is a box which goes out to the windows that overlook the East River.

这是一种极具自我意识的设计，旨在为每一位进入的人提供一种心灵的净化体验。

So it's really self conscious design intended to be a palate cleanser for everybody who walks in there.

早期曾有一些想法。

There were ideas early on.

哦，那会很酷。

Oh, it'd be cool.

你把你的作品展示出来。

You put your work up.

它会很漂亮。

It'll be beautiful.

它会像一个画廊，用来展示作品。

It'll be like a gallery, you know, for the work.

我当时就说，不行，老兄。

And I was like, no, man.

我希望每一个走进这里的设计师、每一位员工都能忘记昨晚发生的事，忘记他们正在处理的项目，每天都能以全新的状态，让感官准备好去思考新的问题。

I was like, I want every designer, every employee who walks in here to forget what they did last night, you know, forget what they're working on and just start fresh every day with just their like senses being ready to think about the new problem.

这或许能回溯到一个问题：你会如何设计自己的家？

And that sort of maybe connects back to like, how would you design your own home?

我们在工作室里度过很多时间。

We spend a lot of time in the studio.

所以这里就是我们的家。

So that's our home.

关键在于意识到这一点。

It's about being conscious of that.

当我们开展工作时，工作本身会整合所有技术元素、炫酷效果和其他我们倾注大量心血的部分。

And then when we do the work, the work then integrates all the technology pieces and the flash and the other stuff that we really put the effort into the work.

因此，背景是一个更简约的画布式工作室空间，让作品能够脱颖而出，你知道吗？

So the backdrop is this more minimalist canvas studio space where the work can be seen as differentiated, you know?

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

按照你描述的方式，我认为这解答了你提出的许多问题和想法。

In a way that you described that, I think it answered many of the questions and the ideas that you've brought up.

在体验设计中，它始于一种意图、一种感受。

In experience design, it starts with an intention, a feeling.

你希望人们能够自我反思，近乎冥想，这样当他们来见你时，能以一张白纸的心态开始。

You want people to be self reflective, to be almost meditative so that when they come and see you, they're starting with a blank canvas.

通过走过这里，他们剥离了身后的一切，进入一个全新的空间。

By walking through this, they're stripping away what is literally behind them and entering into something different.

这就是体验设计。

And that's experience design.

然后你使用材料、空间、表面，选择那些最能塑造和创造这种体验的元素。

And you're using then the materials, the volume, the surfaces that you think are going to best shape and create that experience.

因此，我猜你现在在与客户方的项目负责人开启对话时，会先问：这个项目的目的是什么？

And so perhaps that's what I'm guessing now that you start off the conversation with whoever's leading a project on the client side is what is the point of this?

想要传达什么感受？

What is the feeling?

你希望人们如何行为？

How do you want people to behave?

你希望人们如何体验这件事？

How do you want people to experience this thing?

然后你再据此去构思你认为必须为他们实现的一切。

And then allow you then to come up with whatever it is that you think has to happen for them.

没错。

That's right.

所以你们的‘清口’术语正是我们所使用的，这其实回溯到你之前问的问题：当客户说X或Y，想要《创：战纪》或一些糟糕的《少数派报告》式参考时，你们该怎么办？

So your palate cleanser nomenclature is exactly what we use, which is, and it goes back to the question you asked, which is what do you do when a client saying X or Y and they want Tron or some bad, you know, minority report reference.

通过把这个过程当作一个过滤隧道，可以剔除他们带来的所有杂乱信息和包袱。

Like by squeezing them through this tunnel, it reduces all the clutter that they came with, the baggage.

这能让他们意识到，仅仅通过几个简单的动作，就能创造出让人深刻感受到情绪、视觉和认知的体验。

And it gets them to remember that, wow, you can create experiences with just a few moves that make you really conscious of what you're feeling and seeing and knowing.

这一切从一个基础开始，然后我们可以在此基础上逐步构建。

That starts at a baseline and then we can build up from there.

你真的想要那样吗？

Do you really want that?

哦，你确实想要。

Oh, you do.

那会如何实现呢？

How would that work?

好的，太棒了。

Okay, cool.

从混乱和复杂中倒退回来非常困难。

It's very hard to kind of like rewind from clutter and complexity.

所以如果我们从一个良好的基础开始，就能逐步展示每一个额外的动作、每一个设计层次如何改变游戏规则，改变体验。

So if we start at a nice, baseline, we can show them how each additional move, each additional design layer changes the game, changes the experience one by one.

是的，这一切都回来了。

So yeah, it's all coming back.

我的意思是，真的很棒。

I mean, was like really good.

我们就是从这里开始这个对话的。

This is where we started that conversation.

好的。

Okay.

我想倒退一点。

I want to rewind a little bit.

我觉得你和我，在经验和教育上有一些交集，我们都上过艺术中心学院，只是你比我晚几年入学，差不多晚了十年。

I'm thinking you and I, we have some crossover in our experience or education, And we both went to Art Center, although you went a few years after me, almost ten years after me.

我们俩都与一位名叫何塞·卡巴列特的先生有关系。

And we both have a relationship with a gentleman named Jose Caballet.

所以我想知道，你是Hush的创始人和合伙人，对吧？

So I wanted to know, okay, you're a founder and a partner at Hush here.

在你从事的这么多不同领域中，你在学校学的是什么？

With all the different disciplines that you're exercising, what did you study in school?

什么为你带来了此刻的准备？

What prepared you for this moment?

我觉得很多经历都为我此刻做好了准备。

So I think a lot of time prepared me for this moment.

学校只是加速了这个过程。

School like accelerated it.

就像给火焰添了汽油一样。

You know, it was like the gasoline on the fire.

所以有几件事。

So a couple of things.

从后往前推。

Working backwards.

我参加了一个名为媒体设计的研究生项目，当时是在艺术中心。

I went to a graduate program called media design at the time at Art Center.

所以我有了一些时间去思考我不想要做什么，研究那些我不感兴趣的方向，最终明确了自己的目标，并准备好全力以赴。

So I had had some time to realize what I didn't want to do and look at and study things I didn't want to do and really come to the place where I knew what I wanted and I was ready to like really push after.

艺术中心的这个项目真的非常棒。

And that was a really amazing place at Art Center and a really amazing program.

但再往前追溯，我在1999年、2000年和2001年期间曾在旧金山从事交互设计工作。

But going backwards before that, worked a little bit in San Francisco in interactive design in 'ninety nine, 2000, 2001.

这是一个重要的时刻。

This was a major moment.

希尔曼·柯蒂斯，你知道的，Flash、Macromedia，宽带的前景，以及无边无际的网络。

Hillman Curtis, you know, flash, macro media, the promise of broadband, the web with no bounds.

那是一个完全没有用户体验可言的游乐场。

And it was a play space with no UX, anything.

所以那时候参与其中真的很有趣。

So it was a fun time to be involved there.

在此之前，我在本科期间获得了更广泛的专业背景。

Before that, I got a much broader degree when I was in undergrad.

你知道，我学习了建筑史和绘画，但也修了经济学，并获得了经济学学位。

You know, I studied architectural history and drawing, but I also did economics and had an economics degree.

所以我当时就像一个疯狂、混乱的混合体，不知道自己想要什么，却又同时渴望一切，我认为这为我最终从事的事业打下了很好的基础。

So I was just like crazy frenetic mix and mess of not knowing what I wanted and wanting everything simultaneously, which I think set up pretty good for what I ended up doing.

因此，艺术中心让我真正体会到设计的跨学科性质，这一点也在我们创建的Hush项目中得到了体现。

So Art Center really kind of like demonstrated to me the interdisciplinary nature of design, which was reflected in what we created at Hush.

我认为这让我明白，是的，这个行业存在壁垒，有特定的公司、市场和服务等等。

I think it allowed me to see that yes, the industry has silos and there's particular companies and marketplaces and services and things like that.

但对于某些类型的设计来说，它真的是策略、视觉设计、声音设计和实体产品的大熔炉。

But for certain types of design, it's a real melting pot of strategy and visual design and sonic design and physical product, you know.

于是我心想，我还能在哪里再次做这样的事，并且还能拿到报酬？

And I was like, where can I do that again and get paid for it?

你知道，艺术中心真的很棒，但那种氛围仿佛只能被封装为一种只存在于学术界的东西。

You know, it was almost like Art Center was amazing, but you could bottle it up as like this thing that maybe only exists in academia.

但我只是觉得，这挺有意思的。

But I kind of just said, it's interesting.

我们在解决一些有趣的问题。

We're solving some interesting problems.

所以让我们看看能不能把这个变成一项生意。

So let's see if we can make this into a business.

顺便说一下，我当时并没有主动这么说。

I didn't say that proactively at the time, by the way.

我现在是回过头来看才明白的，但很明显，我们在Hush所追求的，正是这种思维方式和跨学科的融合。

I only know this in retrospect, but it became kind of obvious that the way of thinking and the mix of disciplines is sort of what we pursue at Hush.

顺便说一下，这并不容易。

And by the way, it's not easy.

你知道，跨学科设计的商业模式很难，因为你必须不断平衡众多因素，它不像单一的标识设计、品牌设计或网页设计那样清晰明了，对吧？

You know, the business model of multidisciplinary design is hard because you're constantly juggling a lot of factors and it's not as clean as a model around let's say identity or branding or web design, right?

但我们还是做了。

But we did it anyway.

我们之所以能做到这一点，是因为我们只想开心，能够施展我们认为自己拥有的能力。

And that's how we got there because we wanted to just be happy and to be able to like flex the muscles we thought we had.

是的，人们喜欢用这个词，我总是很反感，真的吗？

Yeah, There's this term that people like to use, and I always bristle and like, really?

但我认为你确实配得上这个说法。

But I actually think you warrant it.

人们说他们专长于通才。

Like people say they specialize in generalizing.

那可是最容易的事了，我可不会轻易承诺。

Like that's the easiest thing I'm not going be committed.

你之前说过，我其实处在一个小众行业。

Earlier on, you said, I'm really in a niche industry.

做我们这种工作的人不多，寻找这类服务的客户数量也非常少。

There's not that many people that do what we do, and the number of clients are looking for this kind of stuff, that's actually very small.

你不会遇到很多不了解情况的买家，他们只是在互联网上随意浏览，偶然找到你，然后说：‘今天我就来做这件事吧。’

You're not getting a lot of uninformed buyers who are just randomly poking around the internet and find you and say, oh, today I'll do this thing.

但你的公司是高度专业化和经验丰富的设计机构，要求你对多个领域具备一定程度的精通，因为你扮演的是协调者的角色。

But your firm is set up to be highly specialized and experienced design, but requires you to have some level of mastery over multiple disciplines because you're the orchestrator.

你必须把所有这些整合在一起，才能让一切无缝衔接。

You have to bring it all together for it to work seamlessly.

所以，也许你是第一个我认识的、真正能声称自己‘专精于综合’的人。

So maybe you're the first person I know that's like, can actually truly claim that you specialize in generalizing.

你对此怎么回应？

How do you respond to that?

这让我听起来比我实际更有才华。

That makes me sound a lot more talented than I am.

你知道，如果你能同时具备I型和T型特质，或者你可以专精于某领域，同时假装自己很在行。

You know, if you can be both I and T shaped or you know, you I could specialize and think I'm really good at pretending.

我对很多领域都有所了解，也足够了解这些领域，以便将它们巧妙地融合在一起。

I know a lot about a lot and I know enough about a lot to kind of weave things together.

你刚才用了‘精通’这个词。

So you said the word mastery.

我不认为这就是关键，对吧？

I don't think that's it, right?

我看我们公司里的每个人，都会想，哇，他们在几乎任何单一领域都比我强得多，无论是技术方面，比如渲染、动画之类的。

Like I look at everyone at my company and I'm like, wow, there's so much better and capable in almost any single discipline, whether it be technical in terms of like, or you know, you can render or you can, you know, animate.

但更重要的是，关于知识、职业发展，以及对生产流程、技术开发和研发真正如何运作的理解——我依赖这些人极其聪明，而我可能擅长的是如何让这些头脑以正确的顺序和节奏协同工作，让各种力量相互作用，最终交付我们想要的结果，对吧？

But even more than that, you know, from a knowledge and career path and understanding of, you know, how production truly works, how technology development and R and D truly like, I mean, I rely on those people being incredibly smart, but maybe I'm good at orchestrating how those minds come together in the right order and sequence and waiting to sort of deliver what we want to deliver as all these forces interplay on each other, right?

你知道，每个项目都与建成环境、技术创新与可能性，以及时间和资金密切相关。

You know, if every project is really, has so much to do with the built environment, technological innovation and possibility, and time and money.

那你优先考虑什么？

You know, what do you lead with?

在任何时刻，是什么在主导着一切？

What one's driving at any given time?

而这正是我真正专注的地方。

And that's kind of where I really lean in.

我大概知道什么时候该大力推动创意，什么时候该深入形式，什么时候该挑战技术边界，或者什么时候该说，这个项目现在必须产生大量利润。

I can kind of know when to really push creatively or really push into form or really ask that we stretch the technological boundary or really say, you know, this thing has got to generate a ton of profit right now, you know.

能够这样把握方向，我觉得很好。

And being able to like steer in that way I think is good.

我有一群很棒的人，在我们确定了方向之后，他们会帮我思考：我们该怎么持续走下去？

And I have a great bunch of people who help like once we kind of steer in a direction, like how are we gonna keep going that way?

你知道的。

You know?

所以这有点像在逃避，但我喜欢向每个人学习，并且保持足够的了解，让你把我丢进任何董事会一小时，我都能表现得特别聪明。

So that's kind of a cop out, but I enjoy learning from everybody and I stay enough apprised that like you could throw me in any boardroom for like an hour and I'll sound super smart.

但如果我要在那里待两小时或三小时，我就会开始触及自己知识的极限。

But if I have to stay there for like two hours or three hours, like I'm gonna start to get to the limits of what I know.

但这没关系，因为我只需要把问题抛给那位聪明的人就行。

But that's great because I just, you know, punt it to, hey, smart person there.

你之前跟我提过那个。

You have the you told me about that.

你为什么不说说这个？

Why don't you talk about that?

或者你来个消失术，像克拉克·肯特那样，你知道的？

Or you do the disappearing act, the Clark Kent was like, you know what?

我有急事。

I have an emergency.

我忘了。

I forgot.

我得先走了，各位。

I gotta leave you guys.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我会以一个天才的身份离开，现在就走。

I'll leave at a genius and I'll walk away at this point.

好的。

Okay.

我想回到之前的话题，对于像我这样 barely 完成了一个学位、当时极度专注于平面设计和包装的人来说，那正是当时的说法，我很难设身处地为你着想。

I wanna come back to this thing where for a person like me who barely finished one degree and highly focused on graphic design and packaging at that time, that's what it was called, It's hard for me to even put myself in your shoes.

我的意思是，我们来看看这个。

I mean, let's look at it.

本科学位，建筑史，这种专业到底能干什么？

Undergraduate degree, architecture history, like, what does one even do with something like that?

对经济学感兴趣吗？

Interested in economics?

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

你打算做什么？

What are you gonna do?

你去博物馆当导游吗？

You're gonna give tours at the museum?

我们这一生到底在做什么？

What are we doing here with our lives?

对吧，大卫？

Right, David?

然后你就想，你知道吗？

And then you're like, you know what?

让我回去拿个硕士学位吧。

Let me go back and get my master's degree.

终于有人说了，好吧。

Finally, somebody's like, alright.

你要做个成熟的决定。

You're gonna make an adult decision.

你要做这件事。

You're gonna do this thing.

然后你选了媒体设计？

And then you pick media design?

你居然选了最抽象、最奇怪的东西。

Like, you, like, pick the most abstract, weird things.

我得问你这个问题。

I have to ask you this question.

你知道吗？所有这些经历最终都会汇聚在一起，为你铺平道路，让你今天站在这里？

Did you know that all these pieces were gonna come together to prime you to be in this position that you're in today?

不，当然不知道。

No, of course not.

这正是所有观众在看演讲者讲话，或者听播客时的误区——大家以为每个人的人生都早有规划，你只是在按清单一项项完成任务。

That's the folly of everybody in an audience watching a speaker speak or listening to a podcast for that matter, which is, you know, everyone had it all planned out and you're just punching the list of things you needed to do.

你手上有通往目标的谷歌地图导航。

And you had the Google map directions to what you want to do.

回头来看，一切似乎都是直线前进的，但生活中，一切都是曲折的，有停有启，有进有退。

You know, in retrospect, everything's a straight line, you know, but in life, everything's really curvy and stop and start and steps forward and back.

所以你的笔记不错，但忽略了一些细微之处——我其实一直都在创作、设计、画建筑、做陶艺。

So your notes are good, but they leave out a little bit of nuance in the sense that I was always making stuff and designing stuff and drawing buildings and throwing pottery.

这些一直都在那里。

And it was there always.

但我一直都知道，我父亲是个企业家，自己做生意。

But I was always, you know, my father was an entrepreneur, had his own business.

那就是我所理解的模式。

That was a model that I understood.

所以大概就是，嗯，我该为别人工作，还是自己干呢？

And probably it was like, yeah, so you know, should I work for someone or do that?

因此对我来说，这是一种可能性——哦，你可以经营自己的生意。

And so it understood to me as a possibility like, oh, you can run your own business.

所以这一点一直存在。

So that was there.

至于经济方面，我只是觉得，天啊，我至少应该基本了解事物是如何运作的，从小规模的生意、市场，到国家，再到全球。

So the economic stuff was just like, man, I should probably have no basics of how things work, you know, from a small standpoint of like a business to a marketplace, to a country, to the globe.

能掌握这种语言就好了。

You know, it'd be nice to have that language.

但我发现它完全没用。

I found it completely useless.

老实说，这最多只是学术上的，但你知道，我觉得这值得探索一下。

Frankly, it was academic at best, but you know, I thought that was something interesting to explore.

所以它一直在我这些定性和定量特征之间拉扯。

So it was always pulling on these like qualitative and quantitative characteristics.

如果你反复在它们之间来回切换，也许最终你会来到艺术中心的一个项目，它认为你可以用这些元素做出有趣的设计。

So if you ping pong them back and forth between that enough, you know, maybe you end up at art center at a program that you know, posits that you can use those ingredients to make interesting design.

所以艺术中心对我来说是一个巨大的关键转折点。

So Art Centre was a huge pivotal leap for me.

我每天晚上都睡在地板上。

I slept on that floor every night.

我觉得我比现在更努力。

I think I worked harder than I

做。

do

现在。

now.

而且你知道，这是一次变革性的经历。

And you know, it was transformative.

我感觉怎么都学不够。

It was like I could not consume enough.

我透过实验室的玻璃窗看着里面发生的一切，感到无比畏惧，心想：谁在做这些事？

I could not be more intimidated by looking through the glass of the labs and seeing stuff happening and being like, who is doing that?

他们屏幕上显示的是什么？

What is that on their screen?

我根本不可能做到这些。

Like I could never do that.

所以，这种强烈的敬畏感反而激励了我，让我想去尝试做点什么，我不知道具体该做什么。

So it was this feeling of just like such like just intimidation that it motivated me to like, I don't know, do anything.

坦白说，我并不出色。

And frankly, I wasn't amazing.

我只是努力挣扎着向前，试图学习并尽可能多地去做。

So I was just trying to like fight my way through it to try to learn and do as much as possible.

如果你持续将那些你感兴趣并反复表现出热情的事物联系起来，随着时间推移，你的关注圈会越来越聚焦。

If you continue to draw lines between a few of the same things that you know you had interest in and repeated enthusiasm and you're just gonna get a tighter circle over time.

我也想确保观众知道，你之前对自己 barely 完成本科学业表现得相当自嘲。

I also wanted to make sure the audience knows, like you were pretty self deprecating about barely finishing undergrad.

而且你知道，你确实也 barely 完成了本科，这没问题。

And you know, you also barely finished undergrad, fine.

但你创办了一家了不起的公司，当年我在学校时，这公司已经传得神乎其神了，比如‘盲人’啊，你知道的。

But you started an amazing company that was like, had this lore about it when I was in school that was like, oh blind, oh, you know.

所以你真的应该为自己感到骄傲。

So you should give yourself a lot of credit there.

你知道，它留下了一种传奇色彩——天啊，我们也想做到那样。

You know, it left a legacy of like, holy shit, you know, we wanna do that.

我也想做到那样。

You know, I wanna do that.

所以你产生了积极的影响。

So you had a good influence.

谢谢你说这些。

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我后面还有更多问题。

I have more questions in time.

所以我要请你做一件我通常不会做的事。

So I'm gonna ask you to do something which I normally don't do.

我想来个快速问答。

I wanna do rapid fire.

你能和我一起进行快速问答吗？

Can you do rapid fire with me?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

因为有五六个迫切的问题，我想赶紧解决掉。

Because there's like five or six burning questions and I wanna get through this.

好的。

Okay.

我会让我的回答简短些。

I'll keep my response short.

请简短点。

Short, please.

我想知道，你是不是因为找不到适合的工作而无法就业，所以不得不自己创造一份事业？

I wonder if you're unemployable in that nothing is going to fit you, so you have to make your own thing.

你如何回应这一点？

How do you respond to that?

这是一个非常真实的说法。

That is a very true statement.

而且坦率地说，每当Hush在历史上遇到任何挫折时，这都是一句令人恐惧的话。

And it's also to be very candid, a fear inducing statement whenever Hush has had any bumps in our history.

我无法想象自己会失去这个自我延续的部分，无法再优化我想在世界上做的事情，这让我感到极度恐惧。

The idea that I would ever not have this vestige of myself and being to optimize what I want to do in the world is incredibly fear inducing.

在我们的历史中，我曾几次不得不与这种恐惧抗争。

And I've had to wrestle with that a couple of times in our history.

目前没有，这很好，

Not currently, so that's good,

但确实如此。

but yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那么，如果我再进一步理解的话，既然你了解自己的本性以及人生想要什么，你是否曾经无意中烧断了后路，没有退路了？

So if I'm to take that one step further then, because you know your nature and what you want in life, did you burn not purposely, but is the bridge behind you burnt, there's no retreat?

就像你必须这么做，对你而言根本没有B计划。

It's like you gotta do this or there's no plan B for you.

无论如何，你都得让这件事成功。

You gotta make this work no matter what.

是的，没有备选方案，因为这正是在优化我真正喜欢、自然思考并且长期感兴趣的事物。

Yeah, there's no plan B because it's optimizing like all the things I like and think about naturally and I'm genuinely interested in and have longevity in themselves.

所以这些都不是有限的。

So they're not finite.

我不会耗尽对人类、我们在世界中的运作方式，以及我们如何通过设计去感知和感受的思考欲望。

I'm not gonna run out of desire to think about human beings and the way we operate in this world and how we perceive and feel based on design.

就像这个，我可以死。

Like that's, I can die.

如果从现在到那时我都能做这些，我会很开心。

And if I do that from now until then I'll be happy.

我认为我 personally 需要确保的是，这不仅是Hush的一部分，也是超越Hush的：Hush是什么、我在Hush中做什么，都在不断演变，对吧？

I think what I wanna make sure I'm doing personally, and this is part of Hush and also addition to it is that what Hush is and what I do at Hush is constantly evolving, right?

所以十年前的Hush，不是五年前的Hush，也不是现在的Hush。

So Hush ten years ago is not what Hush was five years ago, not what it is now.

我在公司里的角色随着时间在变化。

And my role in the company is changing over time.

只要我能在这一框架内不断迭代，创造出相关联的事物、附加功能和副项目，让它们全都融合在一起，我就感到满足。

So as long as I can iterate within that framework and create tangential things and add ons and side projects that all stew in the mix, I'm happy.

我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯在斯坦福的毕业演讲中说过，你无法在向前看时连接起这些点。

I think Steve Jobs said at Stanford during his commencement speech that you can't connect the dots looking forward.

你只能在回头看时看清它们。

You can only see them looking backwards.

所以，如果我是个年轻人，听到这句话，就会想：看看大卫最终是怎么成功的。

So if I'm a young person and I hear that, look how it worked out for David.

他是个创意独角兽。

He's a creative unicorn.

而我还在上高中，听着这些话，心里想：这一切真的都会顺利解决吗？

And I'm in high school, and I'm listening to this and thinking, is all going to just work out?

还是说，并不一定？

Or is it?

因为你成功了，可能还有其他人，但大多数人很难把这些分散的兴趣整合在一起。

Because you're the success, and maybe there's a couple other people, maybe the majority is, they had a hard time bringing all these disparate interests together.

你能给他们什么样的建议或箴言，帮助他们应对这些看似毫无关联的奇怪兴趣？

What kind of advice or gem can you throw at them where they're navigating these weird interests in different things that are not even connected remotely?

他们的思维方式非常发散，却希望达到你现在的境地。

They're very divergent in their thinking, and they wanna land where you landed.

不是在用户体验设计上，而是在基于自己的天赋和兴趣，为自己创造一种生活。

Not in the experience design, but finding and creating a life for themselves based on their superpower, their interests.

你能对他们说什么，帮助他们避免崩溃和失败？

What can you say to them to help them avoid crashing and dying?

不是字面意义上的崩溃，而是耗尽心力却未能获得成功。

Not literally, but burning out and having success.

我认为关键在于高度自我反思、高度自我觉察，并对自己在这个世界上想做的事情提出严格要求。

So I think it's about being very self reflective and very self conscious and about being very demanding about what you want to do on this planet.

你知道，你希望在这个世界上实现什么目标。

You know, what you feel you want to accomplish on this planet.

我的意思是，你应该不断评估，你今天所做的事情是否能带给你快乐，是否留有足够的空间去探索。

And I mean that you should be constantly evaluating if what you're doing today is bringing you happiness, has enough room to explore.

你看到前方有足够的空间了吗？

Do you see enough runway ahead?

你看到身边生态系统中的人，是否有人是你希望在若干年后成为的样子？

Do you see people in the ecosystem around you that are like who you would want to be in X number of years?

你看到自己的角色如何演变了吗？

Do you see how your role can evolve?

它带给你满足感了吗？

Is it bringing you satisfaction?

你还有余地吗？

Do you have runway?

如果你不断问自己这些问题，那么你所做的事情可能只是在积累经验，往自己的清单上添加新的内容。

And if you constantly are asking yourself that, well then maybe what you're doing is just picking up an experience and adding it to your bucket.

在某个时刻，你可能会意识到：我知道这一点了，还有更多可以追求，但我可能想转向别的方向，因为那个也看起来很有趣。

And at some point you might realize, you know what, I understand this and there's more to pursue, but I might want to pursue something else because that also seems interesting.

所以去做吧，保持自我反思，把这一切加入你的经验库。

So do that, be self reflective, add that to your bucket.

希望它们不至于完全背道而驰，对吧？

Hopefully they're not totally disparate in opposite directions, right?

希望它们至少在某种程度上是相互关联的。

Hopefully they're somewhat in the world together.

你不断将这些元素整合起来，最终形成一幅庞大而美妙的、涵盖你生活与职业经历的维恩图，你积累的技能彼此关联，却又不完全相同。

So you're constantly like putting together what becomes this really massive and wonderful Venn diagram of your experiences in life and professionally, and you're amassing skills and those skills relate to other skills, but not exactly the same.

你正在将所有这些联系起来。

And you're drawing lines between everything.

这就是你的职业生涯。

And that's your professional life.

我的意思是，这其实是人生，但特指你的职业生涯。

I mean, that's life, but that's your professional life.

我认为，最终，或者说在更远的未来，你将能够更清晰地界定出，在所有这些领域中，你真正享受的是什么，以及你最擅长的是什么。

And I think at the end, you know, or let's say farther down the line, you become able to better frame out what you really enjoy and what you do best within all of those circles.

希望你能找到这样一个地方，在那里，这样的角色和产出真正受到重视。

And hopefully that's someplace and hopefully you can find someplace where that role and that sort of output is really valued.

如果你在任何时刻停止了自我反思，那就会在不知不觉中五年过去了，你根本不知道发生了什么。

If you stop being self reflective at any point, that's when five years go by and you don't know what the heck happened.

而你现在却已经偏离了你原本热爱的方向。

And now you're off on a trajectory way away from the thing that you loved.

所以我会说，要无情地进行自我反思，但也要明白，你正在积累一些需要时间才能成型的技能。

So I would say be ruthlessly self reflective, but also know that you're picking up a bunch of skills that take time.

你只需要坚持参与其中。

You just gotta be in the game.

这大概是我们结束对话的好时机，但我不会就此打住，因为刚才你谈到的物理上的自我反思，和这个话题完美地衔接在了一起。

That's probably a good point for us to wrap up our conversation, but I'm not gonna let it go there since it really so nicely tied together that tunnel you're talking about physically being self reflective.

现在你又从职业发展的角度说，要进行自我反思。

And now you're saying from a career life point of view, be self reflective.

所以这两者是相互呼应的。

So they mirror each other.

但我想提一下这个观点。

But I want to just throw this out there.

这可能并不准确，所以你可以随意修改或以任何方式回答这个问题。

This may not be accurate, so feel free to change or answer this any which way you want.

从我的角度来看，你们现在所做的体验设计，不像几百年前建造的大教堂或教堂那样。

The experience design that you're doing now as we see it isn't like the cathedral or the church from my point of view that was built hundreds of years ago.

因为你们整合了太多不同的元素，而且这是一个快速发展的行业。

Because you're integrating so many different things and it's a fast evolving industry.

所以，就在几年前，也许所谓的体验设计根本还不存在。

So just, I would say even a few years back, perhaps this thing called experience design isn't even a thing.

当你去艺术中心时，媒体设计对我来说也像是一个相当新的概念。

And then when you go to the art center, media design sounds like a pretty new thing to me too.

你不断投身于新事物，却无法确定这些是否最终会成功。

And you're constantly jumping into new things without any certainty that any of this is ever going to work out.

也许在那个时候，你甚至还看不到它们如何融合在一起。

Maybe you don't even see it coming together just yet at that point in time.

我只能猜测。

I have to guess.

必须克服某种恐惧，相信事情会成功。

Some sense of fear has to, be overcome with some sense of faith that it's going to work.

我不是指宗教信仰，而是相信自己，你知道的，我很聪明。

I don't mean religious faith, but just faith that, you know what, I'm smart.

我会弄明白的。

I'll figure it out.

如果机会没有出现，我会自己创造机会，或者适应并改变。

If the opportunity doesn't present itself, I'll either make it or I'll adapt and I'll change.

你对此怎么回应？

How do you respond to that?

是的。

Yeah.

当你试图定义一个行业或市场时，你必须下一些赌注。

When you're trying to define what an industry or a marketplace may be, you have to place some bets.

我认为我们总是对哪些东西会可行、有趣、有价值抱有过于超前的预期。

And I think we're always a little bit out over our skis with what we think is gonna be viable, viable, interesting, valuable.

这其中一部分是信念，或者更准确地说，是直觉，关于我们认为会美好、美妙且有价值的东西。

And some of that is faith, or maybe better said gut, gut about what you think would be wonderful, beautiful, and valuable.

我知道，我们并没有偏离得太远，以至于非赢即输，但我们的历史上确实多次过于超前了。

And you know, I don't think we're so far out that it's a win or lose sort of mentality, but we've definitely been out too far at times in our history.

而我们也曾不够超前。

And then we've also been not far enough.

你知道，我们在创新曲线上飞得不够远，这种持续的平衡至今依然存在。

You know, we flew a little bit not enough on the innovation curve and that constant juggle is still present.

你看，想想世界上刚刚发生的事。

Look, you know, to what just happened in the world.

你想想，2021年2月1日或3月，我在阿姆斯特丹的一个会议上谈论体验设计，强调它有多么重要，如何成为工作场所、商业场所和文化空间的灵感触点，以及这类东西如何吸引人们并留住他们。

You think that on March or 02/01/2021, I was talking at a conference in Amsterdam about experience design and how important it is and how it can be the inspirational touch point for workplaces and places of commerce and culture and how, you know, this kind of stuff is what draws people out and keeps people there.

一个月后，如果我在任何舞台上说同样的话，都会被人嘲笑。

A month later, if I had said the same thing on any stage, would have been laughed at.

所以我站在了那个悬崖边上，想着：我们在这里做的事情，在这个世界上难道已经不再可行了吗？

So I had, I stood at the edge of that precipice, which was, is what we're doing here not viable in this world anymore?

我认为作为一家公司，我们有足够的信念，知道人类——就像我之前说的——拥有数万年的DNA记忆，驱使我们走向世界、去体验事物。

And I think as a company, had the faith to know that humanity much like I said before is, you know, we got hundreds thousands of years of DNA, you know, motivating us to be out in the world and to experience things.

因此，这不过是雷达上的一个短暂波动，最终，现实世界中的优质体验依然具有价值。

And so this is a blip on the radar and ultimately, you know, there's value in quality experiences that exist in the real world.

所以在那个时刻，我们必须对这一点抱有极大的信念，而现在，这种信念正以证明它的方式回归。

So we had to have a lot of faith in that moment and now it's kind of coming back in the way that proves it.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

非常喜欢。

Love it.

非常感谢你，大卫，今天做客我们的播客，分享你的故事和经历。

Thank you very much, David, for being my guest today on our podcast, for sharing your story, your experience.

我认为会有很多人从中获得共鸣，感到些许安心，因为自己所做的事情终将有所回报。

And I think there's gonna be a lot of people who are going to be able to jump into this, feel slightly reassured that what they're doing will add up.

而且我非常喜欢这一点。

And I love this thing.

我想你说的是三个V开头的词，但我没听清第一个，大概是可行、有价值之类的。

I think you said three Versus but I couldn't make out the first or whatever viable, valuable.

第三个V是什么？

What was the third V?

我想可能是鼓舞人心之类的，我不太确定。

I think it might've been inspirational or I don't know.

我希望有

I wish there

第三个人

was a third

V代表三对三

V because three Versus

比你们之前那样好多了，你知道，就像是在给我们押韵，你知道，各种头韵手法都用上了。

better than you were like, you know, just dropping rhymes on us, you know, with alliteration, everything.

好的。

Okay.

所以请确保你所做的事情是可行的、有价值的，并且你有足够的缓冲时间，同时对这一切进行反思。

So make sure that what you're doing is viable, valuable, and that you have some runway and just be reflective of all that.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

非常感谢你，大卫。

Thank you very much, David.

嘿。

Hey.

很高兴和你聊天，克里斯。

Great to talk to you, Chris.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我的名字是大卫·施瓦茨，你正在收听未来。

My name is David Schwarz, and you're listening to the future.

感谢您本次的参与。

Thanks for joining us this time.

如果您还没有订阅，请在您最喜欢的播客应用中订阅我们的节目，每周收听我们带来的全新深度内容。

If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week.

《未来》播客由克里斯托主持，由我格雷格·冈恩制作。

The future podcast is hosted by Christo and produced by me, Greg Gunn.

感谢安东尼·巴罗为本集进行剪辑和混音，也感谢亚当·桑伯恩为我们提供片头音乐。

Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode, and thank to you Adam Sanborn for our intro music.

如果您喜欢本集，请在Apple播客上为我们评分和留言评论。

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts.

这将帮助我们扩大节目影响力，并让未来的节目变得更好。

It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better.

您对克里斯或我有什么问题吗？

Have a question for Chris or me?

请访问thefuture.com/hey-chris，随时提问。

Head over to thefuture.com slash hey, Chris, and ask away.

我们阅读每一份投稿，你的问题有可能会在后续的节目中得到解答。

We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode.

如果你想支持本节目，同时投资自己，欢迎访问 thefuture.com。

If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefuture.com.

你可以找到关于设计和创意商业的视频课程、数字产品以及大量实用资源。

You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business.

再次感谢收听，我们下期再见。

Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

营销很难。

Marketing is hard.

但我告诉你一个小秘密：它不必那么难，让我来指出一点。

But I'll tell you a little secret, it doesn't have to be, let me point something out.

你现在正在收听一个播客，它很棒，你喜欢主持人，会主动寻找、下载并收听它，在开车、锻炼、做饭，甚至上厕所时都会听。

You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great, you love the host, you seek it out and download it, you listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom.

播客是你非常亲密的伙伴。

Podcasts are a pretty close companion.

这是一则播客广告。

And this is a podcast ad.

我吸引到你的注意了吗？

Did I get your attention?

你可以通过LibsynAds的播客广告接触到像你这样的优质听众。

You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from LibsynAds.

你可以从数百个热门播客中选择主持人推荐广告，或者像这样投放预制作的广告，覆盖数千档节目，让你的目标受众在他们最爱的播客中接触到你的信息，尽在LibsynAds。

Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one, across thousands of shows to reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with LibsynAds.

访问libsynads.com，现在就去libsynads.com吧！

Go to libsynads.com that's libsynads.com today!