设计系统与标准的商业运作 —— 与杰西·里德对话 | 第410期

现在我想换个角度，聊聊第二部分：做这份手册让你在设计上获得了哪些启发？

I wanna now flip it onto the second part, which is what kinds of design things or principles did doing the the manual inform you?

或者说，它在哪些方面影响了你对设计的理解？

Or what did it inform in terms of, like,

从设计视角来看，你是怎么往前推进的？

how you move forward in terms of the design lens?

这方面挺有意思的，从《标准手册》到‘标准’这个概念，其实中间有个跨越，但它们彼此关联。

So in that aspect, it's interesting, sort of the leapfrog over order from Standards Manual to Standards because they all have a relationship.

尤其是，上世纪七十年代制定的那些准则，我们从中吸取的经验，和如今在二〇二〇年代转向网页交互平台的做法，有着直接的联系。

But there's clearly a direct relationship from the guidelines that were developed in the nineteen seventies, what we learned from them and how in the twenty twenties, we're moving forward into a web based interactive platform.

我觉得我们学到的，其实是一个设计原则。

And I think what we learned, this is a design principle.

也就是说，工作过程中的连贯性、效率和流程，和最终成果同样重要。

I mean, the sort of consistency and the efficiency and the process in how you work is just as important as the outcome.

而这正是‘标准’和相关指南软件真正要做的事。

And that's what standards, the guidelines software is really doing.

它本身并不是一个所谓的创意平台。

Like, it's not itself a quote, unquote creative platform itself.

而是它的结构。

It is its structure.

它为设计师提供了框架，让你能高效地做出最好的作品，而且能精准地呈现你想要的效果。

And it gives you, the designer, structure to do your best work and do it very quickly and efficiently, and to the degree that you want to make it look exactly how it should.

我不想深入技术细节，但我们设计时的目标是，任何人都能让它真实反映所需的品牌形象，而不是套用固定模板，让每个基于标准的指南都长得一模一样。

And so not to get into the technical weeds, but we designed it so that anyone could truly have it reflect the brand that it needed to and not be set in a template so that every single guideline built on standards looked exactly the same.

我们过去五年缺的这种灵活性、细腻感和动态性，正是推动我们打造 Standards 的原因。

So this flexibility and this nuance and this dynamism that we were missing from tools that we didn't have five years ago, that's what led us to build standards.

我知道这有点绕开了问题本身，希望听起来不至于像在回避。

And I know it's sort of like a it's sort of a way around the question a little bit, and hopefully, it's it doesn't come across as that way.

真正重要的是，建立那些让你能发挥最佳水平的基础原则和结构——这我觉得是我们从那两家公司学到的最重要的设计经验，也是 Standards 至今持续在做的：根据反馈、了解用户真正想要什么，然后让这个平台帮他们把工作和生活变得更轻松。

But truly sort of setting up the foundational and fundamental principles and structures that you need to do your best work is what I I think that's the biggest design lesson that we learned from those two companies and what we continue to do at Standards and the feedback that we get and what people want to see in that platform and how we can make their jobs and lives easier.

这也就是我们公司在这件事上的核心使命。

That's sort of our purpose within that company.

我的意思是，有时候你会在归档或取消归档过去的东西时，想象这种场景，而那时你我可能已经隔了二三十年，甚至更久。

I mean, sometimes I can imagine this happening as you're archiving or unarchiving the past, and you and we're, like, twenty, thirty years removed, maybe more.

回头看看过去，真的能学到很多东西。

Sometimes looking in the past, you can learn a lot.

你有没有遇到过这种情况？在为2020年代的人设计现代品牌系统时，你突然意识到：有些设计原则其实是永恒的，只是被大家遗忘了，而你重新发现了它们。

And did any of that happen to you where you discovered something about your outlook on design that you're like, okay, you know what, as we're designing modern identity systems for people in twenty twenty something, we need to like, these are timeless principles that designers have forgotten about that you were able to rediscover for yourself.

说白了，我们做的其实还是同样的事。

I mean, basically, we're just doing the same thing.

我并不是完全否定技术，或者我们这个行业和工具取得的进步。

I'm not like totally dismissing technology and the advances that we've made as a profession and with the tools that we have.

但说实话，翻翻那些书——NASA的、环保署的，随便哪一本指南，里面都有排版。

But honestly, in some of these books, the NASA book, EPA, you name the guideline, it has typography.

都有配色方案。

It has color palettes.

都有如何运用排版、层级、布局、构图和比例的方法。

It has the way to use typography and hierarchy and placement and composition and scale.

根本没什么变化。

Nothing has changed.

随便看看任何一家大公司，或者最小的夫妻咖啡店的品牌指南，都是一样的。

Look at any contemporary brand guidelines for the biggest corporation you could possibly think of, and then the smallest mom and pop coffee shop.

这些原则在两端都完全适用。

All of those same principles apply to both ends of the spectrum.

所以我觉得，我们学到的是，核心原则并没有被彻底改变。

So I think what we've learned is that we aren't completely changing fundamental principles.

改变的只是它们的表达方式、使用方法，以及在视觉呈现和制作上的更新。

It's just the way in which they're expressed and utilized and maybe advanced in how they look and how they are created.

但它们需要被传达、传播的方式，还有支撑一切的一致性，其实没怎么变。

But the way in which they need to be communicated, distributed, and the consistency that underlays everything hasn't really changed that much.

我觉得这么长时间保持不变也没什么不好。

And I don't think that's a bad thing staying the same for so long.

我们其实是在处理那些枯燥的部分，好让创意能更加突出。

And it's almost like we're taking care of the boring parts of it all so that the creativity can be emphasized even more.

所以我觉得有些人听到这个会觉得，哎，这听起来一点意思都没有。

So I think some people think about this or hear this and like, that sounds not fun at all.

我不确定。

I don't know.

你还是在谈网格、模块、结构，还有品牌的底层架构。

You're still talking about grids and modules and structures and the architecture of a brand.

对我来说，这特别有意思。

To me, that's really exciting.

正因如此，我和我们其他联合创始人才会这么热爱自己做的事。

And that's why, you know, I think me and the rest of the co founders that these companies love to do what we do.

不过呢。

But yeah.

看来你确实是做这份工作的不二人选。

Well, it seems like you're the right person for the right job.

如果你需要打造品牌标识，又喜欢这件事，而且对此充满热情和经验的话。

If you need identities built, you enjoy this, you have a deep passion and history about this.

也许是因为我们俩都有设计背景，所以外面有很多自学的创作者，他们没接受过系统训练，根本不知道设计的标准、规则，怎么搭建模块化系统，公司又该怎么依靠这些系统实现规模化，他们的问题可能就出在这儿。

And maybe it's because both of us have a design background that there are a lot of self taught creatives out there that haven't actually studied, do not know what the standards are, the rules, how you build modular systems, and how a company can scale with the systems that you build, maybe that's where they run into trouble.

我觉得可能只是我的信息流偏向某种类型，所以网上有人对品牌识别系统说些外行话，其实他们根本不懂。

I feel like maybe just because my feed is biased towards a certain thing, there are people out there saying some silly things about identity systems they do not understand.

网上这类声音太多了，一有品牌焕新，大家就炸锅。

The Internet's full of them because when there's a brand refresh, they go crazy.

我尽量当那个讲道理的人——说实话，我平时挺有主见的，但这次我想说，大家别激动。

And I try to be the and this is weird for me to say because I'm a pretty opinionated person, the voice of reason, like, everybody just calm down.

先把你们的火把放下来。

Put your design torches down.

只要你去深入了解背后的设计和规划，就能明白为什么每个决定都是这么定的。

When you look into the work and the planning that goes into this, you understand why all the decisions are made.

也许你从审美上不认同，我也忘了是谁说的。

Maybe you don't agree with it aesthetically, and I forget.

我觉得这是马蒂·诺伊迈尔写过的观点。

I think it's Marty Neumeyer writes about this.

当我们只凭审美来打设计这场仗时，就好像在设计的贫民窟里作战。

It's like when we fight the battle of design purely based on aesthetics, it's like we're fighting in the ghetto of design.

我们没从解决问题、沟通、营销、品牌、商业需求这些角度去谈设计，结果就被拖进去了。

It's like we're not talking about it in terms of it's solving problems, communication, marketing, branding, business problems, and we get pulled down.

你怎么看这个问题？

What are your thoughts on that?

对。

Yeah.

你说这些的时候，我其实也在笑。

I mean, as you're saying all of that, I'm sort of like, I'm I'm also smiling.

我马上想到的就是亚马逊最近的品牌重塑，还有Coto做的那套设计。

And the the one thing that comes to mind immediately is is a fairly recent rebrands for Amazon and the work that Coto did for that.

之所以想到这个，是因为我常刷领英，情况一模一样。

It comes to mind because I'm on LinkedIn, same thing.

我一打开动态，就看到这些。

I get on feed.

我看到大家在说什么。

I see what people are saying.

有些人对这个标志的微调特别不满，说花了十八个月才改了一个挺明显的标志变化。

And the outrage that some people have around the tweak to the logo, the word mark, saying that it took eighteen months to refine a fairly noticeable change in the logo.

很明显，

Obviously,

他们

they

根本没花十八个月做这件事。

did not spend eighteen months doing that.

谁要是这么说，根本不懂在那种规模、那种地位、那么复杂的项目背后要投入多少工作。

And anyone who says that clearly has no idea the work that goes behind something at that scale, that stature, complexity.

在我看来，十八个月已经算很短了，他们要做的事可不少。

Eighteen months to me sounds short for what they had to do.

真该给他们点个赞。

And like, kudos to them.

真的得给他们的工作点个赞。

Like, hats off on the work that they did.

我的意思是，咱们当然可以一直讨论审美、字体和颜色，但这么庞大的系统，以及它背后需要解决的种种应用问题，真的不是小事——我们说的这个话题，其实就是品牌规范。

I mean, again, you could we could discuss aesthetics and typefaces and color all we want, but the sheer complexity of a system like that and the application that it requires to be figured out I mean, back to this topic that we're talking about is, you know, brand guidelines.

在这些规范里，一定有一套系统的指导原则，告诉那些需要印包袋、做包装盒、给卡车贴 decals，还有做社交媒体和网站的人该怎么操作。

Somewhere in there, there's some sort of systematic structure that instructs the people who need to print more bags, boxes, apply decals to trucks, social media, websites.

这简直让人难以置信。

It's mind blowing.

我的意思是，你真要细想一下，确实如此。

I mean, really when you think about it.

所以对于那些觉得我们只是调字母间距、选颜色的人，我也不知道该说什么。

So yeah, for all the naysayers thinking that all we're doing is kerning letters and picking colors, I don't know.

这些人还有很多东西需要学习。

There's lot to be learned still for those people.

希望现在也有不少资源可以帮助他们了解这些。

And and, you know, so there's hopefully tools out there to learn it.

是的

Yeah.

有时候就是这样，无知的人总觉得自己什么都懂，而真正懂行的人反而觉得自己一无所知。

It's one of these things where I think it's the curse of the ignorant that they think they know it all, and it's the curse of the informed that they don't think they know anything at all.

我们不妨在这两者之间找点平衡。

And we should just cross over a little bit there.

每当我看到有人评论说：‘这不对称。’

So whenever I see someone respond with, oh, it's not symmetrical.

我给改好了。

I fixed it.

搞定。

There.

他们为什么要这么做？

Why did they do this?

哦，我让它变得更棒了。

Oh, I made it better.

他们其实是在无意中暴露了自己根本不懂在说什么。

They're almost kind of telling on themselves that they don't know what they're talking about.

所以对于那些不明白，为什么一个对他们来说几乎没怎么变的系统，却要花十八个月来开发的人，你能简单说说，设计一个让人满意系统时，要考虑哪些因素吗？

And so for people who cannot understand why a system that for them barely changed at all would require eighteen months, like, can you quickly tell us what's involved in designing a system that they like, what are the considerations?

就讲个大概就行。

Just very high level.

你列几条，让大家一听就明白，嗯，原来是这么回事。

If you can enumerate just so that people start to say, uh-huh.

明白了。

Okay.

下次我们看到一样东西，看到的只是冰山一角，底下其实藏着庞大的工程。

Next time we see something, we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and what there's this massive thing below.

到底有哪些

What are

你必须经历的环节，才能做出这样的决定？

the kinds of things that you have to go through in order to arrive at those kind of decisions?

你知道问题出在哪吗？

You know what it is?

就是得跟别人合作。

It's working with other people.

这事儿不是一个人关起门来就能搞定的。

This is not done in a vacuum.

设计师不是接了活儿、做完就交差走人那么简单。

A designer did not get a job, do work, and then just deliver it and say goodbye.

我觉得，这恰恰是品牌重塑背后最顶层的那些细节之一。

That is, I think, at the very top of this pyramid of nuances that we could go into around what's involved in a rebrand.

归根结底，你做的这一切，是为了帮别人更好地完成他们的工作。

At the end of the day, you're doing this work for other people to do their jobs.

拿亚马逊来说吧，其实任何一家大公司都一样。

So if we use Amazon as an example, you could really name any major corporation.

从团队到部门，从岗位层级到职能分工，方方面面都错综复杂。

There are so many distributed teams and departments and levels of every job position that you could imagine.

他们当中很多人，不管以哪种方式，都在直接或间接地使用品牌，需要品牌来体现，或者代表品牌。

Many of them in one way or the other are touching the brand using the brand needing to be represented by the brand or to represent the brand in some sort of way.

你得考虑到每一个部门、每一个业务线、每一个子品牌，从行政、财务、法务到设计，所有环节的表达方式。

You have to take into account every single aspect and expression that every department and vertical and sub brands down to administration, finance, legal, design.

我都能没完没了地说下去。

Like, I could just go on and on.

需要理解和使用这套系统的人员，少说也有几百、几千，甚至上万，而这套系统本身极其复杂，不可能轻易、快速地完成，更不是靠你改几个像素就能搞定的。

The list is hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands maybe, of people that need to understand and use a system that is incredibly difficult and that is not done easily or quickly or in an isolated, let me fix this in a few little pixels that I'm pushing.

所以这些都只是表象。

So that is completely besides the point.

关键在于理解人与人之间的协作关系，理解其他人为了高效、准确地完成工作，需要什么支持。

It's understanding relationships and the work that other people need to do to do their jobs efficiently and correctly.

我从来没参与过这么大规模的品牌系统项目，完全没法比。

I've not worked on any identity system on a scale like that, not even close.

让我试着解释一下，给那些非设计背景的人，这里到底在发生什么。

So let me try and see if I can explain to maybe the nondesigner types what's happening here.

当你看到一个标志时，通常你只看到它的一个使用场景，然后你就对这个具体的样子品头论足。

When you see a logo, oftentimes, you're only seeing one instance, one use case of that, and you're critiquing and commenting on that thing.

当公司规模足够大时，这个标志的使用场景就多了，要考虑的事情也多了，你可能得画个品牌使用树，看看它到底有多少种不同的用法——方形的、长方形的、横向的、竖版的，各种形态都有。

When you get to a large enough company, there are many use cases for it, many things to consider, and so you probably have to build, like, a brand tree to see, like, how many different ways this is being used and different configurations, square, rectangular, long, vertical, all these kinds of things.

然后，你还要把这些和所有利益相关者的需求对上号，每个人都有自己的看法，觉得你做的东西是让他们的工作变轻松了，还是更麻烦了。

Then you take that, and it's on a level to the power of all the different stakeholders who have an opinion about how what you're going to do is gonna make their life easier or harder.

作为那个得去访谈、建数据库、交叉比对所有这些需求的人，你得同时平衡上千个人的期望，还得扮演一个善意的设计师，把这一切整合起来，同时还得满足品牌总监、市场总监，甚至可能还有营收总监和CEO的要求。

And as the person who has to then interview, build a database, and cross reference all these things, you're juggling the needs of a thousand people and trying to be the benevolent designer person to bring it together while serving the needs of the brand brand of chief brand officer, chief marketing officer, and potentially chief revenue officer and CEO.

所以这其实是很多方面在同时拉扯，非常复杂。

So it's a complex juggle of many different things.

因此，当我们讨论执行、讨论形式本身的时候，其实没那么难，就像你敏锐指出的那样。

So when we talk about the execution, the form itself, it's not that hard as you astutely had pointed out.

如果只是你一个人做，谁都能做出来，而且可能五千块就有人接。

If it's just you making it, anybody can make this, and you can get paid $5.

也没人会抱怨。

Nobody's gonna complain.

但当你需要做这些事时，那些没有这种背景的小公司和中型企业通常根本不会被邀请参与，因为他们根本不懂。

But when you have to do this and the reason why small to medium sized companies typically who don't have this pedigree are never invited to do these things because they just simply don't understand.

我们还没谈到法律层面呢。

We haven't even gotten into legal yet.

还有法律上的考量，比如做商标检索、参考竞争对手、在各种定位之间权衡，有时候简直像穿针引线。

There's, like, legal considerations and doing trademark searches and and referencing competitors and positioning between things, and sometimes it's like threading a needle.

这里面的门道多着呢。

So there's a lot there.

所以，如果你们并不想向全世界展示自己根本不懂行，那就别瞎折腾了。

So if y'all are not that interested in communicating to the world that you don't know what you're doing, please stop.

放下设计的火把，先花点时间把事情搞明白。

Put down the design torches, Take a minute and understand things.

这可不是替谁打广告，但我还是得说一句。

And this is not a plug for you, but I'm gonna do it.

去拿一本传奇设计师丹尼尔做的设计规范手册看看。

Go pick up a design standards manual designed by a legend, Daniele.

看看这个。

Look at it.

仔细研究一下。

Study it.

看看那些比你有经验得多、在设计界备受尊敬、载入史册的大师们是怎么做的，你才能稍微明白一点。

See how people who have been doing this for way longer than you, who are highly regarded, respected within the pantheon of great designers that are in the history books, see how they did things, and then you'll start to understand just a little bit more.

我们在播客里这么做，就是想让你多长点见识。

And we try to do this on the pod just to make you a little bit smarter.

好了，我的话就说这么多。

So there, end of soapbox.

你对这个还有什么想说的吗？

You wanna any final thoughts on that?

是的。

Yeah.

我想补充一点，你说设计是为用户做的，其实也是在做决策。

What I would add to my answer of, you know, you're designing for people, it's also decision making.

这几乎是设计师参与的任何会议或演示中最核心的主题。

That is almost the primary topic of any meeting presentation that a designer might be in.

你向一群人展示，最终希望他们做出你希望他们做的决定。

You are presenting to a group of people, and at the end of it, you hope they make the decision that you intend for them to make.

但事情并不总如人意，你得来回沟通、妥协、修改，保持灵活；或者你坚持己见，为自己的理念据理力争。

And that doesn't always work, and then you have to go back and forth, you have to compromise, you have to revise, you have to be flexible, or you're really rigid and you push back and you stand up for what you believe in.

但归根结底，这一切都是关于做决定。

But at the end of the day, it's all about decision making.

回到我们刚才说的品牌指南，它们的存在就是为了避免一遍又一遍地重新提问和重新回答这些问题。

And to bring this totally full circle, it's what we're talking about with brand guidelines, they exist so that those decisions don't have to be reasked and reanswered.

答案早已被清晰地记录、整理，并写进一份权威文档里，作为唯一的标准依据。

There's already an answer that's quantified and qualified and codified in some sort of document that is the central source of truth.

所以到最后，你回头一看，之前的所有努力都没有白费。

So at the end of the day, you come back to it, and all of that work isn't lost.

这正是品牌重塑或全新品牌识别这类决策过程的证明、证据和持久价值所在。

And that's where it sort of lives as the proof, the evidence, and the longevity of a decision making process, like a rebrand or a completely new identity.

在做研究的时候，我翻到一些东西。

In research, I pulled up some things.

我不确定这些是不是真的。

I don't know if it's true or not.

你也是从Type Foundry开始的吗？

Did you also start with Type Foundry?

是的。

Yeah.

我刚才没提，是为了说话方便，但我从来不会忘记那一年。

I left that out just for the ease of conversation, but I always don't actually forget the year.

我们开始做这个已经好几年了。

It's been a few years now when we started it.

在Order，我们创办了Order Type Foundry，给真正的字体爱好者用，简称OTF。

And, at Order, we started Order Type Foundry, OTF for the real type nerds.

懂的人自然懂。

They'll get it.

这还挺有意思的。

That's pretty funny.

懂的自然懂。

If you know, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

简单说一下背景吧，疫情期间，大家都闲着没事，就怕工作彻底没影了。

The quick origin story is, yeah, during the pandemic, whatever, we're all sort of twiddling our thumbs, hoping that work doesn't completely dry up.

在我住的布鲁克林格林点，有一群字体设计师聚在公园里。

Here in Brooklyn, there was a group of type designers that got together in a park in Greenpoint where I I live.

我们每周都碰面聊聊。

And we'll just talk every week.

我就隔着六英尺远，在外面跟大家聊聊天，算是有点社交活动。

I'd basically be like six feet apart, just be like outside having some social activity.

其中一位设计师叫本·塔特尔，他给我看了他设计并基本完成的一整套字体库，已经提交给一家大型字体公司——我就不点名了——结果全被拒了。

And one of those designers, his name is Ben Tuttle, he was showing me a library of typefaces that he has designed and pretty much completed, submitted them to a type foundry, a very large one, which I won't name, and they were all rejected.

我当时就觉得这简直太荒谬了。

And I just thought that was absolutely insane.

于是突然灵光一现：你有这么棒的作品已经准备好了。

And so sort of a light bulb went off where I thought, you have amazing work ready to go.

我知道怎么出版和发行书籍。

I know how to publish and distribute books.

既然如此，我为什么不能把同样的思路用在字体文件上呢？

Certainly, I could apply the same thinking to font files.

当然，这不是第一个这么干的人，但当时我们的受众规模已经增长得相当可观了。

Clearly, not the first one to do this, but it just you know, we had an audience order had grown pretty significantly.

有了网站，再分发数字文件，技术上根本不是什么难事。

The technology of having a website and again, sort of distributing digital files was not that difficult.

所以，这个想法就这么诞生了。

So that's where the idea was born.

后来我们团队里的一位设计师，艾米丽·克拉贝，她全职做设计，同时也在转型成为正式的字体设计师，我就让她负责启动这个字体库项目。

And then a designer on our team, Emily Klabey, full time designer, but also aspiring and now fully fledged type designer, I sort of charged her with the project of let's start a type foundry.

于是我们在网站上加了新页面，首批上线的两款字体就选了本的两个作品。

And so we just made another page on our website and we started with two of Ben's typefaces as the inaugural fonts that were released.

然后这件事就真的做成了。

And then it became a reality.

而且我们并没有投入多少资金。

And again, it was like, we're not putting in major financial investment.

也没打算向任何人要钱。

We're not asking for any.

更不会背上债务。

We're not gonna be in debt.

这纯粹是出于热情，如果做得好，还能变成被动收入。

This is again a passion that if it goes well, can be passive income.

听起来挺懒的。

Sounds like lazy.

字体一旦设计好，就只是授权的问题，你设计一次，之后别人买授权、买下来，然后使用。

But fonts just get licensed and you design them once, and then people license them, purchase them, and use them.

说实话，这成了一个额外的收入来源——我们可以把那些被大公司拒之门外的优秀作品发布出来。

So it was an interesting, I'll be honest, like an additional revenue stream that it's like, We can release really great work from people that are being rejected by larger companies.

我们能支持那些年轻、新兴的字体设计师。

We can support younger, emerging type designers.

至于你之前问到的这些公司之间的重叠和关联，这跟它们全都直接相关，尤其是Order，我们本来就在为客户提供定制字体。

And to your earlier question about the overlap and the interconnectedness of all these companies, this is directly related to all of them, specifically Order, where we were already doing custom typefaces for clients.

现在我们更多是扮演一个分销的角色。

Now we just act more as a distributor.

所以，没错，我们确实也做了一个字体库。

So, yes, we also have the type foundry.

明白了。

Okay.

我觉得我们越找，越可能发现其他一两家公司。

I feel like the more we look around, we're gonna find another company or two.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

但确实有。

But There is.

我相信是有的。

I'm sure there is.

我能看到它们。

I I see them.

我说这话的意思是，我不确定，但它们就明明白白地出现在我屏幕上。

I I say that like I said, I don't know, but they're right in front of me on the screen.

好的。

Okay.

我想做这件事，因为一开始我就答应过了。

I wanna do this because I had promises at the beginning of the pod.

恭喜。

So congratulations.

你们都还在呢。

You're all still here.

我想聊聊品牌的未来。

And I wanna talk about the future of brand.

以你的背景——在Pentagram的经历、自己创办设计公司、出版过关于系统设计的书——你觉得品牌接下来会往什么方向发展？

Given your pedigree, your time at Pentagram, your own design firm, publishing books on systems, what can you tell us about where brands are headed?

依我观察，我觉得这是件好事。

From what I observe, I think this is a good thing.

我觉得品牌正变得越来越有情感温度。

I think they're becoming much more emotional.

在过去，这种做法可能被认为是负面的，甚至不被看好。

And I think at one point in time, this would be seen as a negative or something that you maybe didn't want.

我是说几十年前，那时候谈企业形象设计，像银行、律所这些，你懂的。

And I'm talking about like decades and decades ago when you're talking about like corporate identity design, banks, law firms, you name it.

现在，情感才是让你区别于竞争对手的关键。

Now the emotion is what separates you from your competitors and everyone else.

那你的情感身份是什么？

Like, what is your emotional identity?

听的人可能正挑眉看着我，因为我们在谈设计流程时，其实把很多情感都剔除了，但剔除的是我们自己的情感。

And people listening to this are probably like raising an eyebrow at me because I think when we talk about our design process, we actually leave a lot of emotion out of it, but we leave personal emotion.

所以当我们为别人、为别的公司做品牌识别时，我们是在用视觉语言去反映和回应他们的情感和个性。

And so when we're developing an identity for someone else, another company, we're trying to reflect and respond to what their emotion is, what their personality is through a visual language.

我觉得这样描述挺准确的。

And I think that's a pretty good way to describe it.

你看那些初创公司，还有各种DTC品牌，比如橄榄油、床垫、厨具。

When you look at startups and all the d to c brands of olive oils and mattresses and kitchenware, cookware.

它们都带着很强的情感个性。

It has a lot of emotional personality to it.

不再是那种印在信纸左上角、一成不变的摩根大通标志，仅此而已。

It's no longer the Chase logo in sort of the top left hand corner of a letterhead, and that's all it does.

也不是外面挂个金属招牌，碰都不能碰，僵硬不变，不带任何弹性，也不会换颜色。

And it's sort of a metal sign outside and you don't touch it, it doesn't flex, it doesn't bend, it doesn't change colors.

我的意思是，这当然不是放之四海而皆准的真理，但我觉得品牌正变得越来越有情感色彩。

I mean, obviously, is not a sort of universal truth for everything, but I think brands are becoming much more emotional.

所以我觉得，如果我们能在设计过程中保持客观，不带入自己的个人偏见——毕竟每个人都有自己的品味。

And so I think if we can still move through the process objectively and to not bring our own personal biases I mean, everyone has taste.

每个人在生活中都会带着自己的经历和感受去做事。

Everyone has experiences that they bring to anything that they do in life.

但如果我们能客观地看待合作方，理解他们独特的需求，就能同时做出既有功能性又富有情感的设计。

But I think if we can sort of objectively look at the partners and other people that we're working with to develop something that is inherently unique to them, it can still be functional and emotional at the same time.

你能举个例子吗？有没有哪个品牌在打造情感化形象方面做得特别好，我们当下就能想到的？

Can you cite any examples where you feel like they've done a good job of creating an emotional brand that we might be aware of as we're speaking in

刚才说的那些抽象概念里，有没有具体的例子？

the abstract there?

有没有哪个品牌立刻浮现在你脑海里？

Anything that comes to mind?

比如 Mailchimp 这样的品牌。

It's brands like like Mailchimp.

我觉得它们有一种特别能打动人的特质。

They have something that I think really has an emotive quality to it.

你看，它们的吉祥物是一只真真切切的猴子，也就是黑猩猩，它有表情，会动，还会变。

I mean, there's a literal monkey, a chimp has a mascot that has expressions, and it moves, and it it changes.

它不是那种死板、静止的形象。

It isn't sort of a static environment.

再比如，Casper床垫也是。

So that would be one Casper mattresses.

比如它刚出来的时候，我觉得它其实有很多情感层面的特质，真的改变了我们看待颠覆性产品的方式。

Like, sort of when that first came out, I think, like, that actually had a lot of emotional qualities to it that was really changing the way that we look at disrupting products in a space.

我的意思是，他们起步非常早。

I mean, they were sort of very, very early on.

奥斯卡也是一样的情况。

And the same with, know, like Oscar.

我们经历过这样一个阶段，我觉得现在，用中性外貌的人物插画来代表所有性别和种族，已经成了种过时的套路，不再流行了。

We sort of like went through this period of sort of and I think now it's become a faux pas and tropes of sort of like illustrations of neutral looking people representing every gender and race sort of becoming not really the way to go.

我觉得我们正在回归到更真实地展现品牌背后的人性一面。

I think we're getting back to the more exposing the humanity behind brands.

所以我觉得这是件好事。

And so I think this is a good thing.

我们已经从那种抽象的插画风格，转向了更真实、更具摄影感的品牌表达方式。

So we've moved some from sort of the abstract illustrative to the photographic realness of of a brand.

就连奇宝尼这样的品牌也是这样。

Even, you know, brands like Chobani.

一个卖酸奶的公司，居然能让人产生这么强烈的情感共鸣。

Like, it's such an emotional brand for a yogurt company.

这其实很合理。

And that makes sense.

吃酸奶的时候，你本来就该享受这个过程。

You should be enjoying yogurt as you're eating it.

它真的很好吃。

It's delicious.

它不该看起来像银行、律师事务所或者加油站。

It shouldn't look like a bank or a law firm or a gas station.

而且，人们肯定会问，你们到底是谁？

And, you know, again, people are gonna be like, who are you?

我受的是穆勒·布罗克曼、保罗·兰德和维格内利那一派的影响，主张简化、统一，把一切精简到最核心。

Because I sort of come from the school of thought of Mueller Brockman and Paul Rand and Vignelli of let's just simplify, let's make everything unified and actually reduce everything down.

但你也可以两者兼顾，去掉一些个人化的负担，让公司自己慢慢找到方向。

But you can still do both where you reduce some of the, I guess, like personal baggage and allow the company to sort of grow into its own.

所以我觉得这话挺对的。

So I would say that's pretty true.

不过最后那部分嘛，也就随便吧。

Maybe not, that last part is like, so whatever.

但没错，企业的感情层面正在越来越明显地展现出来。

But, yeah, the emotional growth of companies is really coming through.

你能不能暂时放下教授的身份，换个角度想想？

I want you to put your professor lecturer hat on for a second.

你去学校访问，正好是毕业班，学生们在展示各种品牌标识，你需要给出一些点评。

You're visiting a school, and it's a senior class, grad grad class, and they're presenting a bunch of different identities, and you're to provide some critique.

我来提几个品牌，你来帮我们分析一下。

I'll throw out some brands, you give us the critique.

这样可以吗？

Is that okay?

好的。

Okay.

这有点冒险，但我还是想说说看。

This is dangerous, but I'm gonna throw it out there.

确实挺冒险的。

It is.

说吧。

Do it.

我得先跟观众澄清一下，我们说的‘品牌’，现在主要指的是视觉层面，毕竟还有专门的文案和策略团队，以及客服人员，负责所有接触点。

And and I I want to just clarify for audience, when we say brand, mostly talking about the visual aspects right now because there's a whole team of writers and strategists who who build the brand, the customer service people, all the touch points.

我们现在主要讨论视觉层面，就这次对话来说。

We're mostly focused on the visual aspects right now for the sake of this conversation.

安德玛。

Under Armour.

这个挺有意思的。

This one's interesting.

我觉得它成功，是因为它的品牌——包括标志、颜色、字体这些，并不是核心所在。

It is successful, I think, because the brand, and we'll say the logo, things like color, things like typography, in this case are not the driving elements of the brand.

真正撑起这个品牌的，是那些运动员，是穿上安德玛产品的人。

And it's the athletes, it's the people who wear any products created by Under Armour.

真正让人印象深刻的，是那种运动精神。

And it's the athleticism that truly is the brand element that shines through the most.

有些品牌就是这样，有的部分很低调，有的部分却非常张扬、富有表现力。

And so there are brands that do this where they have certain components that are quiet and certain components that are very loud and the expressive part.

而安德玛用的是真实的照片和视频，展示普通人穿着真实产品，进行真实的运动。

And so in this case, they're using photography and video to show real people using real products, doing real athletic activities.

你面前的这个人可不怎么爱运动。

You're speaking to a non athletic person here.

所以我尽量不用那些我肯定说不好的比喻。

So I'll try not to make any metaphors that I'll totally botch.

但很明显，那些穿着并真正认同安德玛的人，本身就是品牌不可或缺的一部分。

But clearly, the people who wear and who sort of own Under Armour, that is as much as the brand as any visual elements.

你根本没法用一个标志来取代这种认同。

Like, you can never make a logo that replaces that.

我觉得他们做得很对，标志更像是个识别符号或签名，而真正支撑品牌的是他们产品的品质，这正是品牌的核心。

So I think they're doing it right where the logo is sort of like the identifier and sort of like the signature, but everything else is sort of the quality of the products that they make, and that's true with the brand.

那个UAX的图标，它符合你对情感化标识的标准吗？

Does the icon, the symbol of the UAX thing, does it pass your test of an emotive mark?

我觉得那个图标本身并没有情感力量。

I don't think the mark is emotional.

这部分确实没有。

That piece of it is not.

尽管我举了雄性黑猩猩的例子，但那个符号确实是能表达情感的，我觉得这延伸到了更广泛的情感视觉语言，比如图形设计、插画和其他辅助元素。

And that's also not in even though I gave the male chimp example, that is an example of a symbol, an icon that is literally emoting, and that I think, sort of extends into more of an emotional visual language of graphic devices and illustrations and other supporting elements.

但在安德玛的情况下，我觉得标志本身不该带有情感色彩。

Where in Under Armour's case, I don't think the logo should be emotional.

真正有情感的部分不在这里。

That's not the emotional part.

真正打动人心的是人们完成那些了不起的运动成就。

The emotional part are people accomplishing amazing feats of athleticism.

那才是有情感的。

That's emotional.

安德玛的标志只是在说：我们支持你。

And the Under Armour symbol is simply there to say, we're supporting you.

我们是你能发挥最佳状态的原因。

We're the reason why they can do their best.

我不确定。

And I don't know.

也许你可以这么说，它本身就已经带有情感了。

I guess you could argue that that becomes emotional in and of itself.

但作为一个独立的图形设计，我觉得它很有力，也很稳重。

But as a piece of isolated graphic design, I think it's strong, it's stable.

这样一来，它确实很适合代表像安德玛这样的品牌。

And then you could say that's the perfect way to represent a company like Under Armour.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

谢谢你的分享。

I appreciate that.

我想趁这个机会，和你来个观点交锋。

I wanna just take a moment here to do point counterpoint with you.

我通常有个看法：如果一个标志、符号或者吉祥物，连我自己都不愿意穿在身上，尤其是对一个服装品牌或配饰品牌来说，我就觉得有问题。

One of my general observations is if an icon symbol mascot isn't something I'd like to wear, especially as an apparel company, as an accessory company, I have problems with it.

如果它没法转化成让人一眼认出的图案，成为品牌独有的视觉资产，那就有隐患了。

If it doesn't translate into patterns that become signature things that they can own, that becomes problematic.

当我们看像路易威登这样的时尚品牌时，它们已经打造出了非常丰富的图标和符号体系。

So when we look into the world of fashion brands like Louis Vuitton have created a pretty rich symbol of icons and things like that.

巴宝莉也是同样的道理。

Burberry, the same thing.

但当你看到其中一小部分时，立刻就能认出这是哪个品牌，而且还会觉得特别想拥有。

But when you see a fragment of it, you're like, that's something I want and I recognize the company right away.

所以设计的作用，就在于让人对形状、线条这类元素产生归属感。

So design is doing something about creating ownership over shapes and lines and things of that nature.

我是个死忠粉，可能比很多同龄人更传统一点，我特别喜欢那种经典风格——全是硬朗的几何线条，每一个细节都经过深思熟虑，感觉就像厨师最后撒上的那点盐，每个角度都恰到好处，我特别爱这种感觉。

I'm a geek and probably a little bit more traditional than many of my contemporaries where I like the classic stuff that where it's all gritted out and it's, like, geometry, and there's there's it's all kind of considered, and it seems to be like, you know, that chef's kiss where it's like, it's just every angle is the right angle, and I love that.

我之前还真不知道这些，不过很高兴你提到这些，因为我平时其实很少关注安德玛这个品牌。

I didn't know this, but I'm glad you said all these things because I don't spend a lot of time on the Under Armour brand.

但那种真实的人、真实的摄影，用非职业运动员或模特的做法，恰恰跟耐克完全相反——耐克主打的是超级巨星、世界级的营销，画面精美到极致。

But the real people, photography, real things, using nonprofessional looking athletes or models is, I think, the antithesis to what Nike does, which is superstar, world class, multimillion dollar campaigns, the most exciting shots photography just immaculately presented.

要想开辟自己的空间，你就得承认：我们没法在那个领域跟他们硬碰硬。

In order to create space, you kinda have to say, like, well, we can't compete in that space.

我们要在另一个领域竞争。

We'll compete in this other space.

我能想象一群高中生、大学生和运动员会说：这代表了我。

So I can see a bunch of high school college students and athletes saying that this represents me.

我不是那种光鲜亮丽的人，但我觉得这种风格完全可以成功。

I'm not that polished thing, and I can see, like, this can be very successful.

我以前真不知道，谢谢你提醒我这一点。

So I didn't know that before, and I I appreciate you for pointing that out.

明白了。

Okay.

我们再看一个，然后差不多就可以结束这部分了——我们来看看另一个X。

We're gonna go in one more, and we'll probably wrap up this part of it, which is let's look at another x.

X，也就是以前的Twitter。

X, formerly a k known as Twitter.

它有自己的风格。

It has a style to it.

X 的这个正式设计。

The formal design of that x.

从任何可能的呈现方式来看

Out of any representation

在 X 的所有可能形态中，就这个具体的执行方案来说，我不太明白它为什么做成这样。

out of an x that it could be, this particular execution, I don't know why why it is what it is.

而通常来说，这种结果并不是大家所期望的。

And that's usually something that's that you're not that you don't want.

我有点想不通，咱们先撇开改名这回事不谈。

I sort of scratch my head with why like, let's just put aside the name change.

也许经过这一番折腾，大家会觉得，好吧，也行。

And maybe after all of this, it's like, okay.

毕竟只是个单字母。

It's a single letter.

我大概能理解这种做法了。

I sort of get it.

但如果是我来设计，我会选一个最中性、最常见、最普遍易认的符号来代表x，那样可能更合适。

But if I were doing it, sort of thinking about the most neutral, common, universal looking symbol of an x, I think, would have been a more appropriate way to go.

可结果却搞成了一个风格化的设计。

And instead, it's stylized.

它可能参考了某种我从未接触过的东西。

It might reference something that has never been exposed to me.

但如果没有明确的风格依据，这个设计本可以更简洁、更普适，也更有力量。

But without a reference for having such a specific style, I think it could have been much, much stronger in its universality and its, yeah, its simplicity.

它现在的样子，根本算不上一个简单的字母形态。

It is not a simple letter form in the way that it currently exists.

单凭这一点，我就不太喜欢。

So I guess in that alone, not a fan.

我们知道，埃隆·马斯克这个人，向来不按常理出牌。

We know that Elon Musk, if anything, is a rule breaker.

他做的事，我们一开始都摸不着头脑，但后来才明白，原来他在玩一种我们根本看不懂的深层游戏。

He does things that we first scratch our heads and then eventually, oh, there's a game that's being played on dimensions I do not comprehend.

所以我总是想保留判断，对任何人都一样，尤其是对埃隆，因为我觉得他在下四维象棋，而我们还在玩跳棋。

So I always wanna reserve judgment and and just for anybody, but especially for Elon because I think he's playing fourth dimension chess, and we're just playing checkers at this point.

但我得请你戴上推测的帽子。

But I have to ask you to put on your conjecture's hat.

随便说说我的想法。

Just a random opinion.

这里没有经过研究。

There's no research here.

你觉得他花了十八个月的时间去审查、面试和做决定吗？

Do you think he went through an eighteen month process reviewing, interviewing, and deciding?

还是说他就是觉得，你知道的？

Or he's just like, you know what?

咱们就这么干，然后事情就这么定了。

We're gonna do like this, and it just gets done.

所以我完全不知道，但如果非要我猜的话，我觉得他应该是让人做了一百两百种甚至更多的X的设计方案，然后全部贴在一面巨大的墙上，很快就挑了一个。

So I have no idea, but if I had to guess, in my mind, he had someone do like a hundred, two hundred, so many possible ways in which you could develop an x, put it up on a huge wall, and chose one really quickly.

我就这么猜的，一点证据都没有。

That's what I think happened with no evidence whatsoever.

我脸上挨了一拳。

We're we're I have pie in my face.

我觉得，这已经是对实际情况最宽容的解释了。

I think that's the most generous version of what might have happened in reality.

他就是觉得，越简单越好。

He's like, keep it real simple.

有人打了个字。

It's somebody types.

我就说，行了，就这吧。

I'm like, that's it.

干吧。

Let's go.

你想想他设计火箭的方式——根本没人想过火箭应该能返回着陆。

And it just people like him do like, if you think about how he designs a rocket ship, like, it it never occurred to anybody we should have them land.

是的

Yeah.

你懂的

You know?

就是这种

It's that kind

思维方式。

of thinking.

这怎么说？

It's like, what?

现在回头看，简直太明显了。

It seems so obvious now.

对吧？

Right?

我想这个观点是源于我自己的经历。

I guess that theory comes out of my own experience.

我从来没跟像埃隆·马斯克这样的人打过交道，但见过不少大公司的高管，他们喜欢自己拍板，哪怕根本没参与整个过程。

I've never dealt with someone exactly like Elon Musk, but pretty high powered CEOs, people at the top of a company that do like to make their own decisions even if they've not been a part of the process the entire way.

他们往往最后才出现，然后一下子把整个事情打乱。

They sort of come in at the very end and then sort of, you know, disrupt the whole thing.

通常他们的说法是：我没看够，或者我还需要再看看。

And usually it's, I haven't seen enough or I need to see more.

我怎么知道哪个才是对的呢？

How do I know if that's like the right thing?

你就不停地做二十个版本。

You just do like 20 more versions.

结果你会发现，我们其实已经把平面设计专家能想到的好方案都试遍了。

And it's like, well, we've exhausted, I think, all the good truly the good options that the experts in graphic design have done.

这就像你请水管工来修水管。

The same as if you're hiring a plumber to fix your pipe.

既然他明明知道哪一种方案能修好你的水槽，你干嘛还非让他给你看二十种不同的水管方案？

Why would you ask them to see 20 different options of a pipe if they know that that one is gonna fix your sink?

所以这通常就是我的经验，他们对一个选项从来都不满意。

So that's usually my experience, is that they are not satisfied with one option.

他们想要看很多、很多、很多更多的选择。

They wanna see many, many, many, many more.

然后有时候他们又会绕回最初，到最后才发现，其实你一开始就说对了。

And then sometimes they'll come back to the very beginning and at the very end, and you were right in the first place.

我的这个观点就是这么来的。

But that's where my theory comes from.

没错。

Yes.

所以我可能会被网暴。

And so I'll get canceled.

我这么说吧。

I'll I'll say this.

我觉得那个老名字本身积累了不少品牌价值。

I think there was a lot of equity in the name, the old name.

那是个很漂亮的标志。

It was a beautiful mark.

它甚至可以当动词用。

It could be used as a verb.

它曾经代表一种理念，结果却被扔掉了，取而代之的大概是个只有亿万富翁之间才懂的网络段子。

It became synonymous with an idea, and that was all jettisoned for probably some kind of Internet meme joke that is an insider thing that billionaires have with each other.

不过我得替马斯克说一句，他做了一件事，其他科技巨头要么没想到，要么没做好——他直接说：嘿。

But I will say this on behalf of mister Musk is Elon did something that it seemed like no tech giant thought to do or did it as well, which is he said, you know what?

你想要个蓝色的认证标记吗？

Would you like a verified blue check?

我直接收你钱就行。

I'm just gonna charge you money for it.

我们这就帮你搞定。

We'll get you going on this.

没过多久，所有人都跟风照搬了这个点子。

And then soon afterwards, everybody followed the exact same idea.

说到底，得是他站出来讲：嘿，等等。

It's like, it took him to say, you know what?

以前咋样我都不在乎。

I don't care what's happened before.

咱们就照这个法子来。

Let's just do it this way.

如果他爱打赌，那他押注的胜率显然更高。

And if he's a betting person, it seems like more of his bets win than lose.

也许这一回会算作失败，但你注意到了吗？Instagram 突然就改口了：我们马上帮你搞个徽章。

Maybe this one that will go down as an l, but you noticed on Instagram, all of sudden, it's like, oh, we'll help you get the badge right now.

交钱就行。

Just pay for it.

我倒想问问，他们这主意是从哪儿学来的。

I wonder where they got that from.

有创新，有快速迭代、打破常规，然后还有马斯克本人。

So there's innovation, and there's moving fast and breaking things, and there's mister Musk.

我就随便提一下。

So I'm just throwing that out there.

有些决定确实挺有远见的，虽然不是全部都这样。

So there's genius in some of the decisions, maybe not all.

嗯，明白了。

Okay.

你是个在职设计师。

You're a working designer.

你发起一个项目，筹到了一百万美元，现在别人就开始说你坏话了。

You kick start a project that raises a million dollars, and now people are saying not so nice things.

我猜他们会在背后说：你都变卖身了。

I'm imagining they're saying, you're a sellout.

你干嘛非得要这么多钱？

Why do you need all this?

这就是你太贪心了。

This is you're greedy.

什么？

What?

你现在有钱了。

Now you're rich.

成功之后总会伴随的批评。

The criticism that eventually comes with success.

我觉得，当创作者变得成功时，其他创作者对他们的看法里，有种根深蒂固的腐烂东西。

There is something inherently, I think, fundamentally rotten about how creatives look at other creatives when they become successful.

他们获得了认可、名气，或者其中任意一样。

They achieve acclaim or fame or any one of those three.

我只是想让你想想，毕竟你接触的设计师比我多得多。

I just want you to, like because you work with way more designers than I I do.

这种心态背后到底是什么？如果你能走进他们的思维，你觉得该怎么回应？

What is behind that mindset if you can get into that brain, and then how do you respond to that?

从情感上、个人角度来说？

Like emotionally, personally?

是的，你是说那种因为追求热爱的事物而赚钱，就被说成是卖身的负面看法吗？

Yeah, you mean sort of the negativity around selling out or making money for your passion?

成功了，我们就这么叫它，你知道的。

Being successful, we just call it that, you know?

我们确实收到过一些批评，但不算多。

I mean, we did get a lot of criticism, not a lot.

这些书刚出版的时候，确实有反对的声音，有黑粉。

There were haters, there was criticism when these books were first being published.

其实那会儿更多人觉得，大概是看到我们赚了钱，心里不平衡。

And actually, it wasn't so much, I mean, maybe it had to do with the dollar signs that people were seeing.

但说到底，大家觉得我们是在靠别人的作品赚钱。

But if anything, people were looking at it like we were making money off other people's work.

我这个人挺开明的。

I'm a pretty democratic person.

我喜欢听各方的说法。

I like to see both sides of the story.

我明白你可能想表达的意思，这些人都这么想。

I see what you are maybe saying, all these people.

但与此同时，我们并没有把别人做的工作算成自己的功劳。

But at the same time, we're not taking credit for any of the work that has been done.

我觉得他们没抓住重点——那就是让信息更易获取。

And I think they were missing the point of sort of the accessibility of information.

这正是我们当初想做的。

And that's purely what we were trying to do.

如果你看到有人靠一件谁都可能做到的事成功了，就会觉得：这有什么难的。

And I think if you see someone gain success almost through something that anyone could have done, it's like, well, was so easy.

就像沃霍尔，他画个汤罐头，或者把自己的脸印在任何东西上，这事儿谁都能干。

Or like Warhol, I could paint soup cans or I could silk screen my face on anything.

这么简单的事，你为什么没做呢？

That's so easy and why But you didn't.

你根本没去做。

You didn't do it.

你根本没想过这一点。

You didn't think about it.

我觉得，老实说，我们也没做什么特别创新的事。

And I think, I mean, I don't think we did something totally innovative.

可能只是大家忽略了对品牌规范的关注。

It was maybe something that people were overlooking in terms of putting a focus on brand guidelines.

所以我们只是想展示我们身为平面设计师实际在做的工作。

So we just wanted to expose actually the work that we were doing as working graphic designers.

为了做到这一点，我们想着要致敬那些没得到应有认可的设计师。

And to do that, we thought celebrating other designers that didn't get the praise.

比如本·耶利可能是最受关注的，但像NASA的设计规范、理查德·达尼安、布鲁斯·布莱克本这些人，你去问大多数设计师，他们根本说不上来这些名字。

I mean, Ben Yelley maybe being the one that got the most, but talking about like the NASA guidelines, Richard Danian, Bruce Blackburn, I would bet if you ask most designers who those individuals are, they wouldn't be able to tell you.

甚至说起来有点遗憾，我们还为奇马埃夫、盖斯马尔和哈比布出过一本书。

Even sadly, I mean, we did a book for Chimaef and Geismar and Habib.

我常问学生和设计师：你知道奇马埃夫和盖斯马尔是谁吗？

And I will ask students and designers, do you know who Chimaef and Geismar is?

他们就说：没有啊。

And they're like, no.

然后我就给他们看那些作品。

And I'll show them all the work that they've done.

哦，对，想起来了。

Like, oh, yeah, of course.

这正是我们出这些书的原因。

That's the reason why we publish these books.

再说了，任何由出版社出版的书，出版社都不是作者。

And then furthermore, if you think about any book that is published by a publisher, the publisher is not the author.

他们只是在出版别人的作品，并把它们推向世界。

And they are publishing other people's work and they are the distribution of it out into the world.

所以我想说的是，我没让它影响我。

So my point being is I didn't let it affect me.

我经历过太多严厉的设计批评了，设计师被批评，虽然说挺遗憾的，但你也得习惯这种事。

I've gone through enough pretty harsh design critiques or people criticize me designers, sadly, or maybe it's not sad, but like, get used to criticism.

这算是工作的一部分吧。

It's sort of like part of the job.

你得尽量心平气和地沟通，别带着火气或敌意。

You have to hopefully have a conversation that is not heated and not filled with anger and aggressiveness.

我觉得你这么做其实是挺有建设性的。

I think you're sort of doing it in a way that's constructive.

所以说，这种批评是有建设性的。

So there's constructive criticism.

但你永远不知道，跟你合作的人会不会突然就对你猛泼冷水。

But also, you never know the people that you're working with to just, like, throw a ball of fire at you.

所以这些批评根本影响不到我，我就当没看见。

So the criticism didn't bother me, and I sort of put on blinders.

我给每家公司都这么干。

I do this for every company.

我也没指望人人都喜欢我们的做法。

I don't expect everyone to like what we do.

聊聊音乐，聊聊吃的。

Talk about music, talk about food.

不是每个人都喜欢同一个餐厅。

Not everyone likes the same restaurant.

也不是每个人喜欢同一个音乐人。

Not everyone likes the same musical artist.

这没什么大不了的。

And that's okay.

我们又不是活在一个统一标准的社会里，这很明显。

We're not living in you know, OneNote society, clearly.

我真的不在乎。

It just doesn't bother me.

我觉得这样挺好。

I think that's fine.

我倒希望你真不喜欢。

I'd rather you really dislike it.

我宁愿你对我做的事特别生气，而不是轻描淡写地说一句‘哦，好吧’。

I would prefer you to actually be, I don't know, so up in arms about something I've done, rather than being like, oh, okay.

就是无所谓呗。

Like, whatever.

最让人难受的，就是收到这种‘无所谓’的反应。

That's the worst, is to get the whatever.

哦，行吧。

Like, okay.

啊？什么意思？

Like, what?

这有什么大不了的？

What's the big deal?

我干嘛要在意这个？

Or why should I care?

我反而希望你真被触动到了，当然，最好不是负面的。

I'd rather it make an impact on you, either I mean, hopefully not negatively.

但就像你说的，我也不太确定。

But like you said, like, I don't know.

你不同意，这没关系。

You disagree with it and that's okay.

或者你同意，想加入我们，一起上车。

Or you agree with it and you wanna jump on the train and come with us.

但最让人难受的，就是那种模棱两可的态度。

But middle of the lane, whatever is the one that hurts the most.

是的。

Yeah.

有个伪科学实验讲的是三瓶米饭的事，你听说过吗？

There is a pseudoscientific study about this, about the cooked rice in the three jars.

你听说过这个吗？

Are you aware of this?

我没听说过。

I don't think so.

你给我讲讲吧。

Please enlighten me.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

这属于伪科学。

Well, it is pseudoscience.

这个实验的有效性其实有争议，但他们把煮好的米饭放进三个一模一样的罐子里，然后对每个罐子做了不同的事。

It's there's some questions about the validity of this experiment, but they placed some cooked rice in three identical jars, and then they did three different things to them.

第一个，他们夸它。

One, they praised it.

第二个，他们隔绝了声音，让振动传不进去。

They talked about it positively, and then another place, you know, deadened from the sound so the vibrations can't go through.

第三个，他们骂它。

They insulted it.

给他们起各种搞笑的外号，什么乱七八糟的都来了。

They they called it funny names and all kind of stuff.

第三个呢，他们就完全不理它，任它自生自灭。

And the third one, they just ignored and left it alone.

结果发现，经过一段时间，那些被夸奖的米饭，因为声音是能量，能改变分子结构，结果发酵得特别好，香气扑鼻。

And so what they discovered was after a period of time, the one that was praised because sound is energy, it transformed molecules so it fermented beautifully, and it was it had a great aroma.

而那些被骂得狗血淋头的，却腐烂发黑，还长满了霉菌。

The one where they yelled negative things to it, it rot and turned black and had mold on it.

最让人意外的是那个被完全忽视的对照组，什么都没对它做。

The surprising thing is the one that they didn't do anything as part of the control to see what happened to it.

结果它长的霉和腐烂的程度，居然是前两组的两倍。

It had twice the amount of mold and rot.

所以人生中，被人爱当然最好，但被人恨，也比被人无视要强。

So in life, it's best to be loved, but being hated is also better than being ignored.

当别人对你做的事漠不关心时，那可能是最难受的感觉，因为这等于在说：你根本不重要。

When people are indifferent about your work, it's probably the worst feeling that you can have because, basically, it's saying you don't matter.

你的努力，根本不值得被关注。

Your work doesn't matter.

你并没有让我产生任何触动。

You didn't move me x or y.

这事儿太容易被忽视了。

It's just it's something easy to ignore.

我觉得创作者对成功和挣扎的关系不太健康。

I think creative people have an unhealthy relationship with success and struggle.

当他们喜欢或爱的人变得特别成功时，他们反而不自在，除非有人编出一个故事来解释——因为他们总觉得，创作者就该一直处在挣扎中，毕竟他们自己也在挣扎。

They're not comfortable when the people they like or love become really successful until a narrative is created because they think creatives should be in a perpetual state of struggling because they're struggling themselves.

这想法真够糟的，就好比你爱一支独立乐队，可他们一赚钱，你就开始说各种难听的话。

And it's just a rotten idea because it's like you love this indie band until they start making money, and then you say all kinds of horrible things.

是的。

Yeah.

这可能会暴露我自己的立场。

At risk of just outing me.

我的意思是，我参与资本主义这件事，其实大家都知道。

I mean, I think it's no secret that I participate in capitalism.

我喜欢那些能赚钱的生意。

I enjoy businesses that make money.

所以我热爱我做的事，也喜欢它能带来经济回报。

So I love what I do, and I also love when financially it's rewarded.

这样我就能把收益分享给员工、合作伙伴，还有其他搞创意的朋友，比如请摄影师、工业设计师来合作。

And then I can also pass that reward on to employees and partners and my friends that do other creative work, and I can hire photographers and industrial designers.

你可以选择自私地独占这些收获，也可以更开放、更注重社区，把赚到的资源和大家一起分享。

So it's you can be greedy about it or you can be collaborative and sort of be a little bit more community driven about the resources that you eventually gain by the work that you're doing.

但我坚决反对那种‘创作者就得穷困潦倒’的说法，也反对说设计师或艺术家不能靠这行赚钱。

But I really reject the whole struggling creative or that you can't make money from being a designer or an artist.

我永远记得上大学时，图书馆里挂着一张AIGA的海报，上面写着：‘你做这行不是为了钱。’

I will never forget when I was in college, there was, I think, a poster from AIGA hanging in the library saying, like, you don't do this for the money.

意思是搞平面设计根本赚不到钱。

Implying that you're not gonna make any money by doing graphic design.

那时候，我对这事其实没什么看法。

And at that time, I didn't have an opinion one way or the other.

但当我真正意识到的时候，等等，我所在的这个行业其实利润非常丰厚。

But once I really saw, wait a second, this is an extremely profitable business that I'm in.

而我所做的是——用个准确的词——帮助商业运作。

And I'm helping that's the word, business.

我在帮助 businesses。

I am helping businesses.

我们本身就是商业机器的一部分。

We are part of the business machine.

你可以是个艺术家，完全不参与这套体系，那也没问题。

You can be an artist and not be a part of that, and that's also fine.

那是另一条路。

It's a different thing.

但我觉得，你为工作拿到合理的报酬完全没问题，说到底，那些找你做事的人，他们自己也在做同样的事。

But I think it's okay to be financially compensated for the work that you're doing that at the end of the day, the people that you're doing the work for are doing the same exact thing.

最后我想说的是，为了平衡我们高收费的客户和那些付不起常规价格的客户，我们在 Order 推出了一个叫 ‘Change Order’ 的项目，专门为公益组织、非营利机构和真正需要帮助的小型团体提供大幅降价，甚至免费的服务，我们一直在做这件事。

So and last thing I'll say about that is that as a way to sort of balance out our high paying clients with ones that maybe can't afford some of the typical prices, we have an initiative at Order called Change Order, where we do heavily reduced, if not pro bono work for NGOs, nonprofits, and small organizations that really do need it, and we do that.