Best of: The future of motivation

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是拉塞尔·阿尔特曼，你们的《万物未来》播客主持人，今天特地来祝大家新年快乐。

This is Russ Altman, your host of the Future of Everything podcast here to wish you a very happy New Year.

希望你们在健康的状态下迎接新年，对2026年充满期待。

I hope you're ringing in the New Year in good health and looking forward to what's ahead in 2026.

每逢新年人们都会立目标、做计划，所以我们重播一期关于动力未来的节目。

As people are setting goals and making resolutions, we're rerunning an episode on the future of motivation.

去年我采访了动机研究专家黄思琪，她分享了科学如何改变我们对目标设定和实现的理解。

Last year, I sat down with Szu-chi Huang, an expert in motivation, and she explained how science is changing our understanding of goal setting and achievement.

她还提供了一些实用的小技巧，帮你突破目标实现中的瓶颈。

She offered a few tricks you can try when you feel stuck in achieving your goals.

希望你们能认真听一听，学到一些持久保持热情、专注目标的方法。

I hope you'll tune in again and pick up a few insights on how to sustain enthusiasm and focus on your goals over time.

在开始之前，再提醒一下，请给节目打分和评论。

Before we get started, another reminder, please rate and review.

给咱们打个公正的分吧。

Give us the score we deserve.

这能帮更多人知道这个节目。

That helps spread the word.

非常感谢。

Thanks very much.

你有了一个新目标。

So you have a new goal.

可能是财务目标，也可能是个人或身体方面的目标，比如跑步之类的，或者职业上的目标，比如达成某个职业里程碑。

It's either a financial goal, a personal, physical goal, like a run or something, or maybe it's a professional goal, achieving some professional milestone.

你正在考虑这件事。

You're thinking about it.

你打算怎么实现它？

How do you do it?

是凭感觉随便来吗？

Is it random?

我们知道你需要动力。

We know that you need to be motivated.

其实，动力并不是随便就来的。

Well, it turns out that motivation is not just kind of a random thing.

它是一门可以研究的学问，是可以被拆解的。

It's something that can be studied by motivational science and can be broken down.

当你在追求目标时，有各种方法能帮你保持专注和动力。

So when you're pursuing a goal, there are different strategies for making sure that you maintain focus and motivation on your goals.

一开始你要先启动起来。

There's the start period where you have to get going.

中间阶段你正在取得进展。

There's the middle period where you're making progress.

最后阶段，你正努力达成目标。

And then there's the final period when you're trying to reach that goal.

这整个过程就像一场旅程。

And then it's a journey.

苏琪·黄是斯坦福商学院的市场营销教授，也是动机与动机科学领域的专家。

Well, Szu-chi Huang is a professor of marketing at Stanford Graduate School of Business and an expert at motivation and motivational science.

她研究过我们接下来要聊的很多内容，比如如何让孩子吃健康的食物、企业的会员计划，还有科技公司开发的应用程序，帮助人们锻炼、健康饮食、实现各种目标。

She has studied a wide range of things we're gonna talk about, getting children to eat healthy, loyalty programs at companies, tech companies that create apps to help you exercise, to help you eat right, to help you achieve all kinds of goals.

这些正是苏琪的研究方向，她会告诉我们，这里面有科学依据，你可以通过优化动机来提高实现目标的可能性。

This is what Szu-chi studies and she'll tell us that there's a science there and that you can optimize your motivation to optimize the chance of achieving your goals.

苏琪，是什么促使你把动机研究作为你职业生涯的核心？

Szu-chi, what motivated you to study motivation as a key part of your career?

拉uss，这个问题真是再好不过了，开场就点题。

Russ, what a great question to kick us off.

我觉得斯坦福的很多教授，研究的都是自己最不擅长的东西。

I think you will find that a lot of faculty at Stanford, we study what we are the worst at.

我在读研究生的时候，就特别在动机方面挣扎。

And so I definitely found myself struggle with motivation when that was in grad school.

我知道哪些事重要，但就是很难逼自己去做。

I know what's important and it's hard to get myself to do it.

正因如此，我开始不断提问，最终走上了这个领域的研究之路。

And so that comes to struggle, make me ask a lot of questions and eventually took me to research in this area.

很好，这很有意思。

Okay, so that's great.

那我们不妨从最基础的说起。

So maybe we should start out with very basic.

你怎么定义动机和动机科学呢？

How do you define motivation and motivation science?

当我们谈论动机时，我们到底在研究哪些核心问题？

What are the big questions and what are we really studying when we think about motivation?

当然。

Definitely.

通常我们认为，人现在处于一种状态。

I think how we usually think about it is that there is a current state.

比如你现在的健康状况、财富水平、学业成就，然后你心中还有一个理想的状态，是你希望达到的。

So basically where you are today, your current health level, wealth level, academic achievement level, and then there is an ideal state of where you will wish to become.

你可能希望自己更健康一些。

So you may want to be fitter.

你可能希望自己身体更棒。

You may want to be healthier.

你可能想积累更多财富，或者想拿到现在还没有的学位。

You may want to accumulate more wealth, or you may want to get a degree you don't have right now.

你现在所处的状态，和你希望未来达到的状态之间的差距，这就是我们所说的目标追求过程。

This discrepancy between where you are today and where you would like to be the future, this is how we define kind of a goal pursuit process.

而正是这种差距推动着我们前进。

And this is what drives us.

每天早上醒来，你心里总有一件事是你想达成的。

So every day we wake up, there's something we want to get to.

这就是动机的本质。

And that is what defines motivation.

那你说的动机科学，现在是不是已经发展到可以提出假设并加以验证的程度了？

Okay, and when you say motivational science, have we gotten to the point where it is a science where we can have hypotheses and test them?

看到这句话，我觉得特别有意思。

That was very interesting to me to see that phrase.

确实如此。

Definitely.

我知道‘动机’听起来像个哲学概念，但它在社会心理学、社会学，甚至神经科学里都是一个重要的研究领域。

I know that motivation may sound like a philosophical construct, but definitely it is a big field of study in social psychology, sociology, and even neuroscience.

很多研究者都从不同角度探讨过这个问题：我们该如何帮助人们实现理想状态？

And a lot of researchers had been approaching this topic, how do we get people to reach their ideal state from many different perspectives?

我们积累了大量数据，从大脑活动、生理指标，到行为选择偏好，再到现实世界中的真实案例——比如员工如何工作，减肥计划参与者如何出席聚会并成功减重。

And we definitely have all kinds of data from brain level data, physiological data, to behavior choice preference data, to real world data, how employees actually work, how Weight Watchers actually attend meetings and lose weight.

这些证据帮助我们清楚地知道哪些方法有效，哪些无效。

We have a lot of evidence to help us understand what works and what doesn't.

这正好解释了为什么像你这样的人在商学院里如此重要。

And so this kind of helps me explain why it's an important function to have somebody like you at a graduate school of business.

我可以想象，无论是企业、工业界还是公共部门的管理者，都需要激励自己的团队。

Because I can imagine that managers and people in the industrial private sector and public sector as well, As a manager, you need to motivate your workers.

你得想办法激励家里的每个人。

You need to motivate folks in your family.

所以这可不是光靠直觉就能搞定的。

And so this is not just using just your intuition.

其实有很多值得学习的经验和注意事项。

There's actually things you can learn about the do's and don'ts.

没错。

Definitely.

你说得完全对。

And you're definitely right on.

这确实是商学院非常相关的一个话题。

It is topic very relevant for business school.

想想那些领导者，核心就是如何激励所有利益相关者——从投资者、管理者、员工，到客户。

As you think about leaders, it is really all about motivating all your stakeholders from investors to managers, to employees, to even your customers.

那你怎么才能让他们愿意再次参与呢？

Now, how do you engage them to come back again?

他们愿意回来，是因为他们希望从你这里获得帮助，以实现自己的目标。

They come back again because there's something they want from you to help them achieve their goals.

所以，通过理解动机，你能更好地与所有利益相关者建立联系。

So by understanding motivation, you can engage all the stakeholders better.

对。

Yes.

你刚刚提到了一些非常有意思的应用场景，我也很想深入聊聊，但在那之前，我知道你已经梳理出了持续激励的一些关键要素。在进入那些精彩的案例——比如忠诚计划和儿童健康——之前，我们该怎么理解这个框架呢？

And you've just hinted at some of the really fun application areas that you've looked at and I want to get there, but before I know that you have kind of broken down kind of the key elements of sustained motivation maybe before we go into these great examples, like loyalty programs and children's health, which I definitely want to get to, how should we think about the framework?

当然，我认为我这个框架里，动机本质上是一个长期的过程。

Definitely, I think an important part of my framework motivation really is a long process.

我的意思是，传统上我们总把动机看成是瞬间点燃的东西。

So what I mean by that is that traditionally we think about it as igniting motivation.

也就是说，你今天有动力，或者没有。

So you're either motivated today or you're not.

但我整个研究的核心理念是：关键在于维持动力。

My whole research philosophy is that it is really about sustaining motivation.

所以我希望我的研究能为你和很多人提供一个思路：如何不只是今天有动力，而是能一直保持动力，直到达成目标。

So what I hope my research can provide for you and many others is that how can we think about not just being motivated today, but that I can continue being motivated until I reach my goal.

这个过程可能需要几天，也可能长达几个月。

And that process could be days, could be months.

对有些人来说，目标太大了，可能得花上好几年。

For some people, goal is so big, it could take years.

因此，如何在不同阶段持续保持动力，是我研究的核心重点。

So sustaining motivation across different stages is my key research focus.

明白了，明白了。

Gotcha, gotcha.

你提到达成目标这件事挺有意思，因为我知道你写过，过程和最终目标同样重要。

And it's interesting that you talk about achieving your goal, because I know that you've written about the journey is just as important as the final goal.

那你是怎么平衡‘我想达到某个状态’和‘确保在达成过程中持续保持动力’这两者之间的关系的呢？毕竟，这个过程本身也可能改变你的目标。

So how do you balance the importance of, I wanna reach this state versus making sure that getting to that state maintains that motivation and maybe changes even the goals over time?

当然。

Definitely.

这其实点出了其中非常关键的一点。

I think that kind of speaks to a very important part of it.

我为什么一直这么关注如何维持动力呢？

Why do I keep on focusing on sustaining motivation?

因为这意味着你的方法必须不断调整。

Because what that imply is your approach actually needs to keep on changing.

你的思维方式、对目标的看法、使用的工具，还有你应该寻求的反馈，都得随着阶段的变化而变化。

So your mindset, how you think about your goal, the tools you use, and kind of the feedback you should be seeking should actually change from stage to stage.

这才是维持动力的诀窍。

That's how you sustain it.

所以不可能有一个万能的工具能适用于你整个旅程。

So it's not like one tool that will fit all part of your journey.

就像你之前说的，旅程和终点，确实当你朝着目标前进时，盯着目标会更有效。

So like you said earlier about journey and destination, definitely as you are working toward the goal, we do find that keeping your eyes on the price is better.

你得把注意力放在终点上。

You you want to focus on that destination.

我希望我的家就是这个样子。

This is the way I want my house to be.

我有很多不同的方法可以帮助你达到这个目标。

And I have a lot of different tools to help you get there.

但一旦你真正取得了成功，保持过程的心态就特别有帮助。

But the journey mindset is really helpful once you really reach success.

我觉得很多人会有这样的困惑：一旦成功了，接下来该做什么？

I think many people may have that struggle that once I reach success, what am I supposed to do now?

我还要继续坚持饮食计划吗？

Should I keep my diet going?

我还要每天出去散步吗？

Should I still go out and walk every day?

我们突然就失去了动力，因为下一个目标不见了。

And we all of sudden lose that motivation because we don't have the next goal anymore.

所以，过程的心态能帮我们回过头来看清楚，究竟是什么真正助我们取得了成功。

And so that the journey mindset is very helpful to help us reflect on what you really did to help you achieve success.

这些行为或习惯对你来说很有价值，它们如今已成为你的一部分。

Those actions or habits were valuable to you and why they reflect now a part of you.

我们发现，只要坚持这样的练习，转变思维方式，你就更有可能持续做那些有益的事。

And we found that just by doing that kind of exercises and switching your mindset, you can actually be more likely to continue doing those things that are beneficial.

很好。

Great.

那现在我觉得可以聊聊你最近的一些研究，如果我选错了，你直接告诉我，我们换一个。

So now I think it would be fun to dive into some of your recent, and if I pick the wrong ones, just tell me they're the wrong ones and we can go to another one.

我这里有份清单，其中有一项是儿童健康，可能很多人会觉得，一个商学院教授研究这个挺意外的。

I have this list and one of the things is childhood health, which people might find like an interesting and surprising thing for a business school professor to study.

那你能说说，儿童健康和动机之间是怎么联系起来的吗？

So tell me about how child health and motivation linked together.

当然。

Definitely.

我之所以开始研究这个，是因为很多年前我认识了一位联合国儿童基金会的代表。

So I actually started this line of inquiry because I've met a representative from UNICEF many years ago.

我想那应该是2015年，在斯坦福校园里。

I think that was 2015 at Stanford on campus.

她当时来访问，读过我关于动机的一些研究，而联合国儿童基金会关注的是儿童这类年轻消费者。

So she was visiting and she read about some of my work on motivation and for UNICEF, their focus is younger consumers like children.

于是她来找我，问我我的研究中有哪些能帮上她正在思考的问题。

And so she approached me and was asking me what part of my research can speak to the phenomenon she's thinking about.

我的回答是：全都没有，因为我一直研究的是成年人，对儿童根本一无所知。

And my answer is none of it because I've been studying adults not I knew nothing about children.

于是这就开启了我们的合作之旅，一起深入了解到底是什么在驱动儿童的行为。

And so that kind of embarked, send us on this journey that let's collaborate and learn more about what actually motivates children.

你可以想象，我们和联合国儿童基金会一起研究的儿童，年龄在六到十一岁之间，他们处在不同的发展阶段。

Because as you can imagine for young children that we are studying with UNICEF, we're talking about children six to 11 years old, they are in different developmental stages.

要让他们理解抽象的长期目标非常困难，就连‘健康’这个概念，对他们来说也不像对成年人那样具体。

It is really hard to think about abstract long term goal for them, even while healthy beings is not really as concrete as what it feels like for adults.

所以你必须从完全不同的角度来思考激励的问题。

So you have to kind of think about motivation very differently.

所以我们测试了很多不同的方法，因为我一直在想，怎么才能让孩子们觉得，做出健康的选择很有价值，而且特别有趣。

And so we tested a lot of different tools because I think about how we can incentivize children to feel like, Hey, making healthy choices has a lot of value and it's actually a very fun things to do.

那后来你们做了什么？又学到了什么？

Well, and then, and then what did you do and what did you learn?

对。

Yes.

我们做的一件事是去了巴拿马。

So one thing we did is we actually went to Panama.

我们在那里开展合作。

We work with there.

我们去了当地的小学，尝试了各种办法，最后真正奏效的是给孩子们发放游戏化的优惠券。

We went to the elementary schools and we tried different things, but what really worked out for us at the end is give children gamified coupons.

我们发现，健康教育本身太枯燥了。

So, we realized that health education is just boring.

我不喜欢那种单向灌输的方式，让孩子坐在那儿，听大人告诉他们该做什么。

I like children sit there and it's a top down process and you told them this is what you should do.

他们根本不想去做。

And they just don't feel like doing it.

食物金字塔，这东西确实没啥意思。

The food pyramid, the food pyramid is not very exciting.

挺有信息量的，但确实不够吸引人。

It's very informative, but yes, it's not very exciting.

他们希望觉得自己在做选择，而在巴拿马的孩子们，会带着钱上学，自己买午餐和零食。

And they want to feel like they are making choices and the children in Panama, they actually bring money to school and they actually buy their own lunch and snacks during the day.

这跟美国的体系很不一样，我们那儿通常是自带午餐，或者学校统一安排餐食。

So it's very different from the system in The US where a lot of times we have packed lunch or we have school fixed programs.

所以他们早就开始自己做决定了。

And so they are making independent choices already.

他们选东西，主要看包装好不好看，或者昨天吃了什么。

And they are really just choosing based on whatever packaging is attractive to them, or maybe what they ate yesterday.

所以我们给他们一个更健康的理由去选择健康食品。

So we give them another reason to pick healthy options.

我们给他们发了一些特别可爱的优惠券，突出健康食品的选择，还告诉他们，这段时间买这些的价格不一样。

We give them very, very cute coupons highlighting healthy options, and we tell them that, hey, doing this period is a different price.

让我们没想到的是，孩子们真的懂了，还特别喜欢玩这个游戏。

To our surprise, children actually understood that and they like to play that game.

所以现在他们只要这周买麦片奶昔之类的，就能占到便宜。

So basically now they are getting a good deal by buying maybe cereal shake this week.

我们还在优惠券上玩了一些小花样。

And we kind of play with some, concepts on the coupon.

我们不会直接把最终价格告诉他们。

So we may not just tell them the final price right away.

我们会说，这周如果你买大杯麦片奶昔，只用付小杯的钱。

We will say, well, during this week, if you buy, the large cereal shake, you pay for the price of the small one.

这就像是给他们出了一道需要动脑筋的谜题。

And so it's almost like a mental mapping, a puzzle for them to solve that.

好，那我这次到底该带多少钱呢？

Okay, how much money do I really need to take for that?

这太有意思了。

And it's fascinating.

看来在六到十一岁这个年龄段，孩子的认知能力已经足够理解这个游戏了。

It sounds like in that age group, six, I think you said six to 11, that's advanced enough in terms of their cognitive capabilities that they understand this game.

他们明白其中的价值。

Like they understand the value.

他们又明白了。

They understand this again.

知道买一杯奶昔之类的东西有多划算。

A good price for a milkshake or whatever.

他们懂这个道理。

They understand this.

没错。

Exactly.

他们确实懂，但某种程度上这还是个游戏，因为里面带点挑战性。

So they understand, but it is to some extent still a game because there's some challenge.

这个挑战正好符合他们的能力水平。

It's a challenge that fits their ability.

所以我们发现，这确实大大提升了孩子们对这些健康食品的兴趣。

And so we saw that that really helped to boost children's interest in these healthy products.

更让人惊喜的是，我们在一些学校发现，一旦取消优惠券，销量回落是正常的，对吧？

And what's even more exciting is that we observed that at some schools, once we remove the coupon, the self drop back and that is to be expected, right?

毕竟没有折扣了。

There's no discount anymore.

也没有游戏机制了，但有些学校的销量却依然保持稳定。

There's no game anymore, but at some schools actually the supply, the demand actually sustain.

也就是说，销量并没有回到以前的水平。

So that means that they actually did not go back or become lower than before.

反而比我们介入之前还要更高。

They actually become higher than before this intervention that we did.

我们后来又做了进一步调查。

And we've investigated further.

我们发现，关键区别在于，那些需求持续存在的学校，推广的健康食品价格适中。

We found that the key difference was that in those schools that we found a sustained demand, we actually promoted healthy products that was moderately priced.

所以一开始就没贵到离谱。

So that wasn't extremely expensive to begin with.

这说明，优惠券成功吸引了孩子们关注产品的价值和价格。

So we can understand that basically with the coupon, are drawing children's attention now to value and price.

也许他们以前根本没怎么考虑过这些。

Maybe that's something they wasn't, they weren't thinking about as much before.

但现在他们注意到了。

Now they do.

优惠券结束后，他们依然在关注价格。

So after the coupon ended, they continue to pay attention to price.

如果我推广的健康食品本来就不贵，那其实从头到尾都是个不错的选择。

So if I was promoting healthy products that weren't too expensive to begin with, the real estate, this is actually a good deal all along.

所以他们继续购买这些产品。

They continue to buy them.

但如果我选择推广那些特别贵的健康食品的话。

But if I pick these very, you know, extremely expensive, healthy products to promote.

是的。

Yeah.

促销期间销量可能会很高，但之后孩子们会意识到——他们确实会明白——这价格太离谱了。

I'm going to see a big demand during the promotion period, but afterwards children are going to realize, and they do learn, this is crazy expensive.

我不会再买它了。

I'm not going to buy it again.

于是销量就会大幅下滑。

Then we see this big drop.

所以我觉得，我们得好好想想该激励什么样的产品。

So I think it's quite informative for us to think about what we should incentivize.

对。

Yes.

而且真正好消息是，这种习惯能持续下去，超出了促销活动本身。

And it's really good news that it's sticky and it lasts beyond the game.

否则你得一直玩游戏，兴趣迟早会消退之类的。

Otherwise you would have to be playing games all the time and interest would extinguish, etcetera.

好吧，这其实帮我更好地理解了下一个领域。我之前在想，你后来还研究过消费者忠诚计划，比如航空公司的常旅客计划。你知道，作为教授，我们经常出差，所以我专门做过这方面的研究。你能说说忠诚计划背后的激励理论吗？

Okay, so that actually helps me understand the next area a little bit because I was like, okay, then you also have worked on loyalty programs for like consumer, like, you know, fly, I'm a frequent fly, you know, I've made a study because as you know, as a professor, we travel a lot and so there's these So great tell me how the motivational theories behind loyalty programs.

有些地方显而易见，但我猜也有很多不为人知的细节。

Some of it is obvious, but I bet some of it is not obvious.

当然。

Definitely.

我觉得奖励计划和忠诚计划是非常值得研究的场景，因为这是企业真正能激励顾客的一种方式。

I think reward programs and loyalty programs are such an interesting environment to study because this is one way where firms can actually motivate their customers.

仔细想想，企业做奖励计划，其实就是给顾客设定了一个目标。

So, and then what the firms were doing with reward programs, if you really think about it, is they're giving us a goal.

比如联合航空，我经常坐他们的航班。

United airline, I fly a lot with them.

他们每年都会给我们设定一个目标。

They give us a goal every year.

他们说，这就是你的目标。

They are like, this is the goal.

只要你达成了，我们就给你优惠。

If you reach it, we give you prices.

明年还给你升舱之类的福利。

We give you upgrades next year and stuff.

所以他们让我觉得这个目标很重要。

So they tell me this is a goal that's important.

一旦目标定了下来，我就有了整个旅程。

Now, once they set the goal, I have a whole journey.

我有一整年的时间去完成这个目标。

I have a whole year to complete this goal.

按我的理解，这中间有个初期阶段，比如年初的时候。

Then, the way I conceptualize it is you have early stage where it could be the beginning of the year.

这时候你的进度是零。

You have zero progress.

你离这个目标还差得很远。

You are very far away from this goal.

然后你一步步靠近它，希望到年底的时候能达成。

Then you move closer and closer to it, hopefully by the end of the year.

所以这就到了后期阶段。

So you have later stage.

如果我们只把阶段分成初期和后期，我们的研究发现，客户在不同阶段的心理状态其实差别很大。

If we just conceptualize that you have early stage and later stage, our research show that the psychologist is actually very different for our customers and for everybody.

但很多公司都没意识到这一点，对吧？

But a lot of companies don't realize that, right?

他们给的是一套固定不变的结构，一整年都不改。

They give us a fixed structure and that structure doesn't change throughout the year.

可客户内心的想法其实变化很大。

But what is going on in customer's minds actually change a lot.

我们自己也参加过远程项目，所以能站在客户的角度去想。

We can put ourselves in the shoes of a customer since many of us are in remote programs.

在初期阶段，最关键的问题其实是：这到底能不能做到？

In the early stages, really the question is, is this possible or not?

比如，我真能参加这个项目吗？

Like, can I even do this program?

如果这个项目看着根本不可能完成，我就会选择其他更容易实现的航空公司。

If this program seems very impossible, I'm going to fly with other airlines that make it seem more possible.

所以在初期，公司最该做的，就是让客户感觉到自己正在前进。

So in the early stage, the most important thing that companies can do is to help your customers feel like they are making progress.

你做得很好。

And you're doing great.

这个项目就是为你量身定做的，你一定能达成目标。

This is the program for you and you are going to get there.

所以我需要这种信心上的鼓励。

So I need that boost of confidence.

所以我一直说，要从进展开始。

And I always, that's why I always say, you know, start with progress.

刚开始设定目标时，先从进展入手。

When you are starting on the goal, start with progress.

对。

Yes.

你写过很多这方面的内容，我想问问你，很高兴我刚才停了一下，因为你之前说我不太懂你的意思。

You've written about this a lot and I wanted to ask you, so I'm glad I'm just going to stop for moment because you said that I didn't understand what you meant sometimes.

因为我之前只是粗略看，没通读整篇论文。

Cause I was just re, I wasn't reading the whole papers.

我只看了摘要。

I was reading the abstracts.

我就在想，她所说的‘从进展入手’到底是什么意思？

And I said, what does she mean start with progress?

但这个例子特别好。

But this is a great example.

在旅程初期，你需要一些快速的成果，来让你对整个过程产生信心。

Was like early in the journey, you need kind of some quick wins to give you like good feeling about the whole procedure.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

你不能只是因为做了点什么就白送里程吧？

So you can think about examples of, I can't even just give you free miles because you did something, right?

所以，简单点说，我就直接给你加点进度。

So something very simple, I just boost you up.

这样你就直接把过程启动起来了。

So you already jumpstart the process.

在我们的一项测试中，我们和一家公司合作设计了一个奖励机制。

Or in one of our tests, we actually designed a reward program with the company.

我们做的就是，你每完成一个动作——比如花一美元——就能获得比你接近目标时多得多的积分或里程。

And what we did is every action you took, let's say every dollar you spent actually give you a lot more points, a lot more miles than what I would have done when you're getting closer to the goal.

所以在一开始，你的进度会特别快，每做一件事，比如在星巴克买一杯咖啡，都能拿到多得多的积分。

So in the beginning you are kind of moving very fast and every, you know, every action you take, every cup of coffee you bought at Starbucks points, does it gain you a lot more points?

这一点在初期特别重要，因为这时候人们都在想：这事儿到底能不能成？

And this is very important in the early stage because in early stage, people are evaluating, is it possible or not?

如果觉得这目标根本达不到，我立马就放弃了。

And if this goal is not possible, I'm just going to disengage right now.

没错。

Right.

干嘛还继续花时间花钱在这上面？

Why spend more time and money into it?

但关键是，这种状态不会一直持续下去。

But the important thing is this doesn't last forever.

你可以想象，当客户快接近终点的时候。

You can imagine the customer who'll get closer to the end.

你马上就要达成里程目标了，这时候根本不用再担心有没有进展可见。

You're about to get to the mileage goal that you're not worried about visibility anymore.

这时候才真正该关注更大的目标——你到底为什么要这么做？

And this is where actually focusing on the bigger goal, the bigger purpose, the why are you even doing this?

更重要的是看清它真正的价值，而不是纠结于怎么让它实现。

What's the big value of it is more important than thinking about how I can make it possible.

所以这里有个转变：一开始关注进展，但最终要回归到一个简单而宏大的目标。我想强调的就是这个心态的转换，它非常关键。

So this is, there's this switch from starting with progress, but ending with a big simple purpose that I wanna really convey and make sure everybody embrace I think that this switch of mindset is really critical.

对。

Right.

那对企业的建议是，在这两个阶段，你需要两种既独立又相连的营销方式。

And then I guess the advice to the companies is you really need to have two almost like separate but connected marketing approaches in those two phases.

在第一阶段，要传达‘你能做到，你真的能做到’。

Like in one phase, it's the, you can do this, you can do this.

到了后期，就要转向‘你快到了，这才是我们做这一切的意义’。

At the end, it's more like, you're close, here's why we're doing this.

接下来是升级服务，还有我们如何如何……

Going to get upgrades on and the we're blah, blah, blah.

这对他们来说可能挺难的，对吧？

And that might be hard for them, right?

因为这需要对两个不同的项目进行投入。

Because there's an investment then in almost two different program.

完全正确，还有两种不同的沟通方式。

Totally and two different communications.

没错。

Exactly.

但这非常关键，因为我曾和富国银行合作过他们的退休储蓄项目。

But it is very critical because I think if we step away from reward program, I worked with Wells Fargo for a while on their retirement savings.

这跟我们每个人都息息相关。

That's something very relevant for all of us.

想想退休目标，那可是长达五十年的奋斗，目标多么宏大，对吧？

And if you think about retirement goal, I mean, that's fifty years working towards that goal, very big, right?

所以，从进展入手真的特别重要。

So this starting with progress is so important.

如果我觉得自己根本存不下退休金，那我干脆就不存了。

If I don't think I'm gonna be able to save for retirement, I'm just not gonna do it.

所以富国银行开始给用户及时反馈。

And so Wells Fargo started giving people very quick feedback.

你做得很好。

You're doing great.

这就是我们认为你做得好的原因。

This is why we think you are doing great.

这样你会觉得有动力，愿意继续存下去。

So you feel like you're having a momentum and you can keep on saving.

但如果你存得更多，就跨过了那个门槛。

But if you save more, you're kind of crossing that threshold.

你不再纠结存钱是不是能实现。

You're not worried about whether it's possible or not.

你已经进入了储蓄的状态。

You're already in the moment of savings.

接下来，他们希望你思考的是：你为什么要存钱？

Then what they want you to focus you on is why are you even saving?

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

那么，存这笔钱的好处是什么？是什么让你有动力持续存下去？

So what is the benefit of saving this money so that that purpose propel you to continue saving?

确实如此，这太好了。我现在想到，连社会保障局都懂这个道理。我记得我三十岁的时候，他们就告诉我，根据不同存款水平，我退休后每月能拿多少。

Yeah, that's such That's great Even the social security administration, I'm now thinking, I remember like I was 30 years old and they were telling me what my monthly retirement would look like with different levels.

他们那时候肯定也明白，像我这样的三十岁年轻人，离退休还远着呢。

So they must've known a little bit of this even then that it was, that for a 30 year old, I was nowhere near retirement.

我当时根本没想过七十岁能赚多少钱，但他们跟我说这些，就是让我觉得，哦，这还挺有意思。我只看了两秒，但正是这短短一瞥提醒了我：退休，这事儿是真的存在。

I wasn't even thinking about how much money I was gonna make when I was 70, but they were telling me this so I could say, Oh, that's interesting, you know, and I looked at it for like two seconds, but it was good to remind me, okay, this retirement really is a thing.

接下来是与拉塞尔·阿尔特曼探讨的未来话题。

This is the future of everything with Russ Altman.

接下来我们将继续与黄思齐的对话。

We'll have more with Szu-chi Huang next.

欢迎回到《一切的未来》。

Welcome back to The Future Everything.

我是 Russ Altman，今天和来自斯坦福大学的黄思齐对话。

I'm Russ Altman and I'm speaking with Szu-chi Huang from Stanford University.

上一节我们了解了动机的基本阶段：开始、中间和结束。

In the last segment, we learned about the basics of motivation, the start period, the middle period, the end period.

每个阶段都有各自的特点和挑战。

They all have different characteristics and different challenges.

这一节我们重点聊聊动机的社会层面。

In this section, we're gonna focus on the social aspects of motivation.

你可能觉得自己的目标非常私密。

You might think you and your goals are very private.

但黄思齐和其他研究者发现，你周围的人际网络既能成为竞争对手，也能成为支持者，这对维持动力和实现目标至关重要。

Szu-chi's work and others has shown that the network around you can create competitors and can create allies and that this is important for maintaining motivation and achieving the goals.

我想问问你一个我了解的领域，就是把动机和人际关系、社会因素联系起来的研究。

I wanted to ask about an area that I know you've worked on, which is connecting motivation to social connections and social issues.

人们可能根本想不到这一点。

People might not think of that.

他们会说，这是我的目标。

They say, well, that's my goal.

我在为它努力。

I'm working on it.

这跟别人有什么关系呢？

What does it have to do with like other people?

那么，社交关系在追求目标和保持动力方面起着什么作用？

So what is the role of social connections in pursuing goals and maintaining motivation?

这个问题问得真好，Russ。

What a great question, Russ.

确实，很多关于动机的研究都集中在一个人独自追求目标的情境下。

And definitely I think a lot of the motivation science studies have focused on situations where you are working on your goals alone.

没错，目标确实是你的，但我们生活在社会中，你可能会发现，很多人和你有着相同的目标。

And it is true, it is your goal, but we live in a social world and you may realize a lot of people share the same goal as us.

我们现在注意到一个趋势，越来越多的消费者和普通人参与这种共同目标的计划。

So we are noticing a trend where consumers and individuals are participating in kind of a shared goal programs.

他们希望和那些也在追求同样目标的人在一起。

They want to be with other people who are working towards the same goals.

比如，你准备跑马拉松，可能会报名参加一些互助小组，大家一起练。

So for instance, you think about training for a marathon, you may sign up for those support groups and do it together.

像体重管理计划Weight Watchers，还有不少公司，整个商业模式就是基于人们想从和自己目标相同的人那里获取信息。

Weight Watchers and many companies that build their whole business around the idea that people want information from other people who share the same goals.

现在还有很多应用能让你看到别人在做什么，比如骑车数据，Palo Alto就是个例子，还有排行榜。

And these days you also have a lot of apps that allow you to see how other people are doing, what they are cycling, the Palo Alto is another example, leaderboards.

我们现在能接触到的社交信息越来越多，都是基于这样一个前提：有很多人和你一样在努力，你现在和他们比处在什么位置？

So there are a lot of social information we now have is built on, There are a lot of people working on the same door as you, where are you right now compared to them?

这正是我们想探讨的问题：这类社交反馈真的有帮助吗？

And that's kind of a way we want to explore the question of are those kinds of social feedback helpful?

人们该怎么利用这些信息，真正持续下去？

How should people you leverage it to actually sustain?

是的，我得说，在你告诉我你的发现之前，从一开始我就不太确定这到底是好事还是坏事。我当年学医的时候，有时候就得躲开其他同学，因为他们太紧张了，反而变得不健康。

Yeah, I must say that before you tell me what your findings are, from the start, I'm not sure if this is like a good thing or a bad thing because I was a pre med and I remember that at certain times I had to just get away from the other students because they were getting so worked up that it was like unhealthy.

我能想象，这其实是一把双刃剑。

I can imagine that there's a two edged sword.

我们待会儿再细说，但在我告诉你答案之前，我想起自己确实经历过一些团队，大家目标一致、互相支持；可也有过一些情况，那种竞争暗流涌动，特别微妙。

So we'll get to it, but before you tell me the answer, I'm just thinking that I've definitely been in groups where we're pursuing similar goals and we support each other, but I've also been in goals where there's like an insidious, like competitive nature.

我们待会儿再深入，不过这确实是个很有趣的话题。

So we'll get to it, but a very interesting topic.

好，你请说。

Okay, please.

我们到底发现了哪些动态和问题呢？

What do we What do we find are the dynamics and the issues here?

你说得一点都没错，这里头其实涉及两位心理学家的观点。

And it's exactly like you said, there are two psychologists here, right?

你可以想想，为什么人们会去报名Weight Watchers？就是冲着那份支持去的。

You can imagine, like, why do people sign up for We're Watchers because they want that support.

这一点我们都看得出来。

And we can all see that.

所以我们才加入了学习小组。

That's why we joined study groups.

我们希望有同伴陪伴。

We want other people.

再回到我们之前聊过的心理学，我们建议从进步开始。

And kind of going back to the psychologies we talked about earlier, we say start with progress.

一开始，你得让自己感觉良好，觉得这事我能行。

So in the beginning, you want to feel great, you can do it.

这时候，支持就特别关键。

And so in that case, support is so important.

所以大家才会注册这些应用、平台和课程。

And that's why people signed up for these apps and platforms and programs.

因为刚开始的时候，你希望身边都是朋友，尤其是那些懂你处境的朋友——他们知道启动健康目标或新饮食计划有多难。

Because in the beginning, you want to be surrounded by friends, especially friends who understand the struggle, they understand how hard it is to get started on a health goal or on a new diet.

所以一开始，寻求支持非常有帮助。

So in the beginning, seeking the support is very, very helpful.

但我们发现，在中期往往会出现一种竞争压力。

But we definitely find that this kind of a competitive pressure starts to happen in the middle.

我们多次观察到，在追求目标的中途，人们容易感到动力不足。

We found that repeatedly in the middle of a goal pursuit journey, people tend to feel a little bit in the, kind of, they are losing the momentum.

想想夏天吧。

Now think about the summer.

如果你年初立下健康目标，一开始会充满期待和紧张。

If you have a year end health goal in the beginning, you are excited, anxious about it.

到了年底，你离目标越来越近。

At the end, you're getting closer to the goal.

所以那时候你又会兴奋起来，但中间阶段正是我们说的‘卡在中间’效应。

So you are also excited, but the middle stage is where you have this, what we call stuck in the middle effect.

你就是卡在那里了。

You're kind of stuck.

你的动力稍微下降了。

Your momentum is a little bit lower.

你的注意力也没那么集中了，对目标的专注度越来越低。

Your focus is a little bit less, less, less, focused on the goal.

所以在中间阶段，我们观察到一种有趣的行为，叫社交信息回避——因为人们知道自己进展没跟上预期。

And so that middle stage is where we saw the interesting behavior we call social information avoidance, because they, people know that they are not making as much progress as they should.

于是他们开始避开身边的人，不想承受那种压力。

And they started avoiding people around them because they don't want to feel pressured.

你可以想象一下，如果我运营一个平台或应用，观察用户查看排行榜或社交信息的频率，就会发现一个U型模式。

And so you can only imagine that if I'm managing a platform or an app, and I'm looking at how much users actually check up on the leaderboard or social information, I'm going to see this U shaped pattern.

年初的时候，很多人会频繁查看，确保自己没掉队。

In the beginning of the year, a lot of people are checking to make sure they are well calibrated.

年底的时候，大家又会频繁查看，想赶在别人之前完成目标。

At the end of the year, a lot of people are checking to make sure they can finish the goal before other people.

而年中这段时间，我们看到人们对这些社交信息的互动和关注明显减少了。

The middle of the year is where I saw a lack of activity and engagement on these social information.

是不是在那个时候，我们彼此之间会开始较劲呢？

Is that the time when we might get competitive with one another during that you,

是的，我觉得正是在那个时候，我们会感到一定的威胁——想竞争，但又不确定自己够不够格去赢。

Yeah, the bottom I of think the that's the time where we feel threatened to some extent, like we want to compete, but then we are not sure we are doing well enough to actually compete.

所以我们就会躲开社交信息。

So we shy away from social information.

但关键在于，我们发现，在这个中间阶段，保持联系尤其重要，因为你的动力已经在下滑了。

But the important thing is we do find that staying connected is especially important in that middle stage because you already losing momentum.

你缺少一个能推动你继续前进的参照标准。

You don't really have a benchmark that can propel you to continue going.

所以每当我觉得社交信息让我不舒服时，我就会想，哎，真想关掉它。

So I will always say that when you feel the discomfort from social information, you're like, Oh, I really want to mute this.

我不想看这些内容。

I don't want to look at it.

但其实，当你有这种感觉的时候，恰恰是你更该去看看的时候——虽然看了可能会有点压力，但这种压力反而能给你一剂动力，提醒你：今天也许就该去健身房了。

When you feel that that is actually a moment you should be looking at it because by looking at it, yes, you may feel a little bit stressed, but that actually give you a boost of motivation that, Hey, maybe today's the day you should hit the gym.