Best of: The future of plant chemistry

大家好，我是《万物未来》的主持人罗斯·阿尔特曼。

Hey everyone, it's Russ Altman from The Future of Everything.

四月是地球月，为了致敬地球和地球上所有的植物，我们重播一次我和贝丝·萨特利关于植物化学未来的对话。

April is Earth Month and in appreciation of Earth and all of the plants on Earth, we're gonna rerun a conversation I had with Beth Sattely on the future of plant chemistry.

你知道吗，植物不仅仅是食物，也不只是好看的东西。

You know, plants are more than food and pretty things to look at.

它们还可能是治疗癌症的新药来源，也可能是应对气候变化的解决方案。

They're also the potential source of new drugs to fight cancer and solutions for climate change.

希望大家再听一遍我和贝丝的这次对话，感受植物如何同时为人类健康和整个环境带来积极影响。

So I hope you'll take another listen to this episode and my conversation with Beth to appreciate how plants can positively impact both human health and the environment at large.

植物无处不在，真的很了不起。

Plants are around us everywhere and they're amazing.

我们用它们当食物。

We use them as food.

我们用它们来遮阴。

We use them as shade.

我们还用它们来制造化学物质，比如药物，甚至包括癌症化疗药物，这些都是医疗体系的重要组成部分。

We use them to create chemicals like medicines, even cancer chemotherapy medicines as part of our healthcare system.

所以我们必须重视它们。

And we need to worry about them.

我们必须确保它们能适应气候变化。

We need to make sure that they are adapted to climate change.

我们还得防止它们染上病害，不然果实和植物产品就会遭殃。

We need to make sure that they don't get infections that ruin their fruit or their plant products.

归根结底，这一切都离不开化学。

It all comes down to chemistry.

植物就像是微型的化工厂。

Plants are little chemical factories.

它们能合成种类繁多的化学物质，用途广泛，覆盖了人类生活的方方面面。

They make a diversity of chemicals that is quite amazing and that have uses across many aspects of human endeavors.

萨特利是斯坦福大学的化学工程教授，也是植物化学领域的专家。

Well, Sattely is a professor of chemical engineering at Stanford University and an expert at plant chemistry.

她正在用这个方法研究人类健康，让植物在不断变化的环境中更加坚韧，还有许多其他应用。

She's using it to look at human health, making plants more robust as the world around us changes and many other applications.

贝丝，我们先来问个基础的问题。

Beth, let's start out with a basic question.

你为什么以及是怎么决定把整个职业生涯都投入到植物代谢和植物工程领域的？

Why and how did you decide to devote all of your professional work to plant metabolism and plant engineering?

真了不起。

Wow.

我选择专注于植物代谢，是因为它把我的两个身份完美地融合在了一起。

The reason I decided to focus on plant metabolism is because it really united two pieces of me, two personas.

一个是化学家的身份，我的博士是学合成化学的。

One is as a chemist, my PhD is in synthetic chemistry.

我一直在研究分子，同时在周末，我特别喜欢待在花园里。

I studied molecules and at the same time on the weekends, I really liked spending time in the garden.

于是我就发现，原来可以把这些分子的研究和植物联系起来，这正好结合了我的两种热爱。

And so it really united these two passions where I figured out you could think about all these molecules and you could think about them in the context of plants.

很好。

Great.

这把你的很多兴趣都结合起来啦。

It brings together many of your interests.

没错。

Exactly.

那问题在哪里呢？

So what is the challenge?

每天在实验室里，推动你前进的挑战是什么？我们得着手解决一些迫在眉睫的问题。

What are the challenges that drive you in your lab every day in terms of, we need to work on this because there's some challenges on the horizon that we want to kind of anticipate.

当然。

Sure.

我觉得这个问题也有两个方面。

I think there's two parts to that one too.

对我而言，最大的挑战是如何更好地对待地球。

The one big challenge for me is how do we treat the planet better?

同时也要照顾好我们自己。

And at the same time, take care of ourselves.

也就是环境健康和人类健康。

So environmental health and human health.

我觉得植物在这其中起着至关重要的作用。

And I think that plants are a critically important part there.

我们的专长是植物化学，植物正是通过化学物质来应对我们人类面临的那些同样挑战。

And our expertise is in plant chemistry and plants use their chemistry to cope with all the same challenges that we have.

所以我觉得这算是一个大的核心问题。

So I think that's sort of the big overarching question.

但对我来说，第二部分是出于对自然世界如何运作的好奇。

But the second part for me is just curiosity of how the natural world works.

我认为，未来一些最令人兴奋的技术，其实早已存在于自然界中。

And I think that some of our most exciting technologies going forward are things that already exist in nature.

我们只需要走出去，把它们找出来。

We just have to go out and find them.

所以这是另一个推动力。

So that's the other driver.

我知道有一件事，当然还有很多方面，我希望在我们的对话中能谈到其中一些。

So I know that one of the things and I know there are many aspects and I hope to hit some a bunch of them in our conversation.

但最近推动我们的是培育更能应对气候变化等各种挑战的作物。

But one of the things that's driving recently is the idea of making crops that are more robust and to climate change, to all kinds of things.

你能给我们讲讲这个挑战的规模有多大，你们是怎么应对的吗？

So can you give us a sense of what's the scale of that challenge and how are you approaching it?

是的，这确实是近年来我们转向的重点。

Yeah, this is something that we've shifted to more recently.

我觉得这个挑战是全球性的，关键在于把它拆分成一些小块，像我这样的实验室才能着手解决，对吧？

And I think the scale is global and the challenge is breaking it down into small parts that a lab like mine can start to address, Right?

我们希望思考的是，如何以一种再次优化人类健康的方式生产粮食。

We want to think about how do we produce our food in a way that again, optimizes human health.

我们考虑环境保护，也关注粮食的公平分配，但后一点并不属于科研项目。

We think about environmental stewardship, and we're also distributing that food equitably, but that's not a research project.

所以我得从最基础的开始讲起：植物到底需要哪些微量营养素？

So I have to back it all the way out to, what are the micronutrients that a plant might need?

目前这些作物是怎么获取这些营养的？

How does a particular crop get them right now?

我们怎么才能让这个过程变得更高效、更简单、也更可持续？

How could we make that better, easier, and more sustainable going forward?

对。

Yeah.

当我们看作物的时候，我知道你写过，它们基本上是通过传统育种，可以说是自然选择的过程，农民们只是

So when we look at crops, I know you've written about this, that, you know, they've been through husbandry, mostly like old fashioned evolution, if you will, the farmers and the just

我称之为定向进化，没错，

A directed evolution, I would Exactly,

他们通过杂交和筛选，得到自己想要的性状。

where they just get what they want through mating and selection.

所以有些问题理论上还是可以用传统方法解决的，比如农民发现种得不好，就挑出更适合自家土地的品种。

And so some of the challenges could presumably be done in the old fashioned way where the farmers say, okay, I'm having some trouble and I'm gonna select species and variants that are well suited to my land.

但我知道你写过，有时候这样做会让作物对快速发生的变化缺乏抵抗力。

But I know that you've written that sometimes when you do that, it leaves them not robust to changes that might happen on much faster timescales.

所以你能跟我讲讲，传统农业和现代生物技术之间的权衡吗？你觉得什么时候该用这些新技术，什么时候作物自己就能应付得来？

So can you tell me about this trade off between old fashioned husbandry and modern biotechnology and how you think about when it's time to deploy the big new technologies versus they don't need us, they'll be fine.

当然可以。

Sure.

我觉得你这个问题里其实包含了一个关键点：你怎么去改变一种植物？

So I think in your question, there's a piece about how do you make a change in a plant?

是该用传统育种，还是用现代分子工程的新工具？

Do you breed them or do you use new tools in modern molecular engineering?

我认为这些新工具确实非常强大。

And I think those new tools are incredibly powerful.

但更重要的问题是，我们该在什么时候使用它们？

But the second part is when do we deploy them?

我们到底想给作物赋予哪些性状？我觉得在单株植物层面，还有很多值得深入探讨的问题。

And what kind of traits are we trying to instill in the crops that we'll So work I think there's a lot of questions to be asked on the individual plant level.

一种植物，某种特定作物，可能已经被培育成高产、果实大或者容易采摘的品种。

One plant, one particular crop might have been bred for yield or size of fruit or ease of harvesting.

但我们可能需要更多地关注病原体的问题。

But maybe we need to think a lot more about pathogens.

尤其是考虑到气候变化和植物在全球范围内的运输，它们对病害、就像人类面临的瘟疫一样，到底有多脆弱？

And especially given changing climate conditions and transport of plants across the world, how susceptible are they to blights and essentially pandemics just like humans?

所以我们确实需要关注单个植株，但同时也要思考作物生长所依赖的整体系统。

So yeah, we need to think about the individual plants, but then we also have to think about the system in which plants are grown.

这不只是每株植物本身的事，更是我们在种植作物时创造出了怎样的生态系统，以及如何让这个系统对未来的各种变化具有更强的韧性。

It's not just each plant in and of itself, it's what is the ecosystem that we're creating when we're growing crops and how do we make that really robust to changes that might come down the pipe.

这个行业担心吗？

Is the industry worried?

你是个工程师，会设计东西、开发方法。

So you're an engineer and you build stuff and you create methods.

食品和农业领域的人有没有告诉你，你和你的同行们得赶紧行动了，因为他们已经看到了迫在眉睫的问题？还是说，你们只是在提前布局，为将来可能需要的能力做准备？

Are the people in the industry of food and of plants, are they telling you that you and your colleagues need to get on the ball because they're seeing kind of looming problems or are you just doing this to create the capabilities that we may need in the future?

是的，我们正在努力弄清楚，从产业界到消费者，各方都有哪些担忧。

Yeah, I think we're trying to figure out what are the concerns both from the industry side, but also from the consumer side, from the people side.

同时我们也在思考，地球本身有哪些需求——这其实更难，因为我们必须非常仔细地倾听，才能真正理解这些环境方面的需要。

And then we're trying to figure out what are the concerns from the planet side, which isn't even harder, because we've really got to listen very closely to understand those environmental needs.

所以，我认为产业界的人当然总在不断推出作物的新一代品种。

So I think folks in industry, of course, are always trying to come up with the next iteration of a crop.

但据我所知，这些努力大多着眼于短期利益，而不是长期的气候稳定和粮食系统韧性，至少我听到的是这样。

But my understanding is that those are largely driven towards the short term, not necessarily the long term from what I've heard in regards to climate change and stability of food systems.

这本来就不是企业运作的方式，它们的结构决定了这一点。

That's just not what businesses are, how they're built Can to

你最近主要关注哪些作物或植物？

you tell me about some of the crops or plants that you're focusing your attention on these days?

对。

Yeah.

我们关注的是整个植物界的各种植物。

I think we think about plants all across the plant kingdom.

说实话，我们更多是跟着有趣的化学成分走，而不是盯着某一种作物。

I mean, often we're following the interesting chemistry rather than one particular crop.

澄清一下，我们做的不只是农作物。

And just to be clear, we don't just work on crops.

我们还研究很多种药用植物，它们的化学成分特别有意思。

We work on a lot of different kinds of medicinal plants that have really fascinating chemistry.

我们长期和斯坦福大学的穆吉特实验室合作，研究的其中一种就是番茄。

One we've worked on for a long time in collaboration with the Mudget Lab at Stanford is tomatoes

番茄确实不少。

lot of tomatoes.

是啊，我也是。

Yeah, me too.

说实话，番茄可能是我最喜欢的食物之一。

I think it might be one of my favorite foods actually.

如果容我插一句，家种的番茄和市面上常见的那种，味道差别真的太大了。

And there's the hugest difference, if we can go with just a small little sidebar, there's the hugest difference between homegrown delicious tomatoes and the ones that are typically available commercially.

我觉得这种水果的差异特别明显。

That's one of the ones where you really are aware of the differences in my opinion.

确实如此。

Yeah.

这全都是因为它们的化学成分，对吧？

And it's all their chemistry, right?

到底有哪些分子在起作用？

It's what are all the molecules?

是水分特别多，还是富含那些让味道出众的风味物质？

Is it just packed with water or does it have all those flavorful molecules that make it taste great?

除此之外，还有很多有趣的问题，不只是种在哪儿，还有怎么储存。

And then there's other really fascinating things with not just where did it grow, but how do you store it?

我们平时根本想不到，超市里买的番茄其实还没死，它还是活的，你知道吗？

One of the things that we never really think about is when you purchase a tomato in the grocery store, it's not necessarily dead, it's still alive, right?

那些细胞可能还在进行新陈代谢。

Those cells could still be carrying out metabolism.

如果你把它放进冰箱，和放在台面上相比，它的变化会很大。

If you put it in the refrigerator, it could really change what's happening there versus you leave it on your counter.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

那你现在在研究这些什么呢？

So what are you doing with these?

你最近对番茄有什么新的期待或想法？

What are your latest tomato dreams and hopes?

是的，我最近对番茄的设想其实不在于把番茄放冰箱会怎样，虽然我觉得这在做沙拉时确实挺重要的。

Yeah, my latest tomato dreams actually have to do not with what happens to a tomato when you put it in the fridge, although I think that's important when you're making a salad.

我现在更关注的是，当病原体接触到番茄叶子时，会产生哪些特定的脂类物质。

I'm more right now focused on these specific lipids that are made when pathogens touch a tomato leaf.

我对这种只有在特定条件下才会被激活的化学反应特别感兴趣。

So I'm really interested in this chemistry that gets essentially turned on only under very certain conditions.

通常情况下，当番茄植株长得健康时，一切正常，它根本不会产生这些分子。

So normally when a tomato plant's looking healthy, everything's fine, it's not making these molecules.

但一旦真菌出现在植物叶片上，植物就会突然开始产生这些有趣的代谢物。

But then if a fungus comes along on a plant leaf, all of a sudden it starts producing all of these interesting metabolites.

我们和马盖特实验室正在研究其中一种脂质，它们在感染过程中起着关键作用。

One that we're studying with the Mudgett Lab are these interesting lipids that get produced and that have an important role in the infection process.

我知道，对很多人来说，脂质就是脂肪的一种。

Now sometimes I know, so lipids for many people know are types of fats.

有时候，脂肪会让人联想到美味的食物。

Sometimes fats are associated with things that are delicious.

那这些脂质会影响番茄的味道吗？

So what is the effect of these lipids on the tomatoes taste?

这是个很好的问题。

Yeah, so a great question.

目前我所知，它们对番茄的味道没有任何影响。

No effect that I know of right now on the tomatoes taste.

植物总的来说，并不太在意我们人类。

The plants, I would say in general, don't really care about us so much.

它们更在意的是病原体。

They're more concerned, you know, with the pathogen.

没错。

Right.

不过我得说，它们其实也关心哺乳动物和草食性动物的啃食。

Well, I should say that they do care about mammals and mammalian herbivory.

没错。

Right.

谁会吃它们，什么时候吃，还有

Who's going to be eating them and at what time and at

为了传播种子之类的。

what To spread the seeds and whatnot.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

比如在番茄里，我们发现有一些其他分子会随着成熟过程发生变化。

Like there's these other molecules that we've looked at in tomato that actually change over the course of ripening.

番茄还是青的时候有一种形态，后来会转化成另一种形态，番茄也就变红了。

So there's one form that's there when the tomatoes are green, but then they get converted into a different form and the tomatoes turn red.

没人知道为什么会这样，但我们推测，这可能是为了在发育过程中调整番茄对草食动物的吸引力。

No one knows why this happens, but we think it's because it's sort of altering how enticing those tomatoes are to herbivory during the course of development.

是的。

Yeah.

我听说你正在研究番茄的疫苗，或者有人在做这方面的研究。

And I've heard that you're working on or that there are vaccinations for tomatoes.

这到底是怎么回事？

So what is that all about?

对。

Yeah.

这其实是个文字游戏，不过说到底，植物实际在做的远比我们想象的要多。

That's a play on words, would say a little bit, But basically, again, plants are doing a lot more than we realize.

想想看，今天你记住的那些东西，可能就静静地躺在那儿，当你走过时完全不起眼，但其实它们一直在进行新陈代谢。

Think if there's anything you remember from today, they might be sitting there very innocently as you walk by, but there's metabolism going on constantly.

比如，当真菌侵染叶片时，就会产生大量脂肪酸。

For example, when that fungus comes on a leaf, all these fatty acids are made.

说到疫苗的问题，植物其实和人类一样，也有免疫系统，对吧？

In the question of the vaccines, plants have the immune system just like humans, right?

所以一旦植物某一部分感染了病原体，整个植株都会做出反应，防御水平会全面提高。

And so if there's an infection in one part of the plant, the whole rest of the plant actually responds and there's a heightened level of defense.

我们研究过的一种分子，正是触发这种全身性防御反应的关键。

And so one of the molecules that we've worked on actually triggers this systemic response across the plant body.

植物有能力在病原体入侵时，从一片叶子或一根枝条向另一侧传递信号。

So there's ways for the plant to signal from one leaf or branch all the way to the other side of the plant when a pathogen arrives.

所以，番茄里的这些脂质引起了你们的注意。

And so these lipids in the tomatoes have caught your attention.

它们对番茄种群构成威胁吗？

Are they a risk to the tomato population?

是什么让你和你的同事对它们产生了兴趣和担忧？

What made you and your colleagues concerned and interested in them?

是的，我通常对某样东西感兴趣，是因为我作为化学家的视角——看到分子结构在纸上长得挺特别，挺有吸引力。

Yeah, So often when I get interested in something, it's because of that chemist hat, I think the structure looks cool on paper and it's kind of unusual.

我会去想这些原子是怎么连在一起的，这跟普通的多不饱和脂肪酸完全不一样。

And I think about like the way the atoms are bonded together and I think this is not like your polyunsaturated fatty acid.

这是一种完全不同的脂质。

This is like a different kind of lipid.

所以我们最初被吸引，就是因为这种非常独特的结构。

So this is a very unusual structure that we first were drawn to.

后来我们发现，这种物质在没有病原体侵染时根本检测不到，一旦植物受到感染它就立刻产生，这让我们觉得它很可能在感染过程中扮演着关键角色。

And then when we found out that it's basically dark until you put a pathogen on the plant and then it gets produced, made us think that perhaps it has an important role in the infection process.

明白了，明白了。

Gotcha, gotcha.

在转向其他话题之前，我知道你研究过柠檬苦素，就是那些让柑橘类水果有独特风味的物质。

So before we move to some other topic, I know you've worked on limonoids, which are some of these things that I think are responsible for citrus flavors.

我最近听说了柑橘黄龙病，不知道你有没有研究过这个？

I did want, I've heard recently, and I don't know if you work on this about citrus greening.

没错，确实如此。

That's right, yeah.

你能给我简单讲讲这个吗？

So can you tell me just a little bit about that?

因为我觉得这事挺重要的，但很多人还不了解。

Because I think it's an important thing that a lot of people are not aware of.

这是个很好的问题。

Yeah, so this is a great question.

今年春天我开了一门课，专门探讨如何界定食品领域的主要挑战，思考怎样切实可行地推动食品体系的革新。

I actually, I taught a class this spring that was all about how do we define some of the big challenges in the food space when we think about really reinventing the food system and how do we break that down to some of the big problems that we can go after in a practical way.

我们班上有个学生小组就选了柑橘黄龙病作为研究主题。

And one of my student groups chose to focus on citrus greening.

虽然这不是我直接研究的领域，但通过这门课，我学到了很多关于它的知识。

So even though it's not something I work on, it was really exciting to learn a lot about it through this class.

柑橘黄龙病是一种细菌性病原体，会感染柑橘树，严重破坏果实品质，最终导致树木死亡。

So citrus greening is a pathogen, a bacterial pathogen that affects citrus trees and essentially destroys the the quality of the fruit and can ultimately kill the tree.

这种病通过一种叫木虱的昆虫传播，它们停在树上时，会把细菌传进去。

It's transmitted through a psyllid, which is a insect that can land on the tree and then deliver the bacteria.

这种昆虫就是传播媒介。

The insect is the vector.

它已经严重打击了佛罗里达州的柑橘种植和产量。

And it's really devastated the citrus growth and production in Florida.

不过，我认为目前它在加利福尼亚还不是一个大问题。

However, it's not yet, I would say, a big issue in California.

但根据我学生与全州各地农民和种植户的交流，专家们预测，这种病已经开始出现，未来很可能也会在加州成为一种重要的病害。

Although experts predict based on my student conversations with, farmers and, growers across the state that it's there's, it's starting to appear and there's a strong likelihood that it will emerge in California as an important pathogen as well.

是的，我听说的也是这样，而且它可能不仅威胁全球柑橘产业，还会进一步影响全球维生素C的供应，因为柑橘是维生素C的主要来源。

Yeah, so this is what I've heard as well, and that it actually could threaten global, not only global citrus, but because of that, global access to things like vitamin C, where the citrus fruits are the main source.

所以我特别想提一下，因为我知道你研究过柠檬苦素，说不定你这方面的专长将来能派上用场——毕竟你的研究领域本来就覆盖了这些关键问题。

So just I wanted to highlight it because I knew you worked a little bit on the limonoids, which who knows, maybe your expertise there might eventually, I mean, you are circling a lot of these things in your expertise.

所以，如果你第三次谈未来展望时，话题转到柑橘类水果，我一点都不会意外，到时候你会开始研究黄龙病。

So I wouldn't be surprised if when you're on the future of everything for the third time, you're a citrus, here's a prediction from Russ Altman, you're going to be getting involved in citrus greening.

是啊，如果我们研究过的这些柑橘化合物真能发挥重要作用，那就太棒了。

Yeah, that would be awesome if the molecules that we've studied in citrus ultimately have an important role.

简单说一下，柠檬苦素是一类非常奇妙、结构极其复杂的分子，存在于柑橘树和柑橘果实中。

I mean, to very briefly say, limonoids are these really fascinating, super complex molecules that are present in citrus trees, also in citrus fruit.

它们会让水果尝起来发苦，但具体它们到底有什么功能，我们其实还不清楚。

They can lead to bitter taste in fruit, but that's what we really actually don't know, what their function is.

这一类分子里还有好多类似的变体。

And there's lots of different cousins in the same molecule class.

它们很可能在做很多有趣又重要的事情。

They're probably doing a lot of really, interesting and cool things.

是的，我提前看你的简历时就注意到了，还特意去查了维基百科，顺便说一下，我多少懂点化学。

Yeah, so I saw that on your CV in preparation for our chat and I did Google it and I read like the Wikipedia entry and I have a little bit of a chemistry background as you may know.

看到这些分子的结构，我就觉得难怪贝丝会对它们这么感兴趣。

And so I saw that these were very interesting looking molecules and I said, okay, this explains why Beth would be interested in them.

这正是让我开始关注柑橘黄龙病的原因。

And that's what triggered my citrus greening.

我想转到另一个想法：把植物当作化学物质的生产工厂。

I wanted to move to the idea of plants as factories for chemicals.

你已经提到过，这融合了你对化学和植物的双重热爱。

You've kind of said they bring together your love of chemistry and your love of plants.

我记得你写过，世界上一些最顶尖的化学家都在研究这个领域，而你正在探索如何把植物当作药物——包括抗癌药物——的生产工厂。

And I think you've written that there are some of the best chemists in the world are And one of the things you're doing is looking at plants as a factory for medications, even like cancer medications.

你能跟我们讲讲这方面的情况吗？

So can you tell us about that?

是的，我们最近做了一些研究，想弄清楚植物是如何合成那些已经被用于临床的分子的，比如化疗药物。

Yeah, so most recently we've done some work to try to figure out how do plants make molecules that are used in the clinic and already have been discovered and used as, for example, chemotherapeutics.

最典型的例子就是紫杉醇，它来自红豆杉树。

So leading example is Taxol, which is produced by the taxis tree or the Yew tree.

我们已经搞清楚了植物是怎么制造这种分子的，但这只是冰山一角。

So we figured out how does the plant make this molecule, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

这是一种非常重要的药物，已经用了很长时间了。

This is a super important drug that's been around for a long time.

当时科学家们竞相尝试在实验室里人工合成它，想尽办法把它做出来。

There was a huge race to make it chemically, like how could scientists make it at the bench?

现在我们想弄清楚，大自然是怎么做到的？

Now we're trying to figure out how does nature do it?

这棵树究竟是怎么生产出这种物质的？

How does the tree do it?

我觉得，这可能是生产这类分子的一个关键途径。

I think that could be an important way that the molecules produce.

但说实话，这个故事背后要深远得多。

But again, I think the story is much bigger there.

这些树的寿命长达数千年之久。

These trees live literally for thousands of years.

它们能合成五百到六百种不同的代谢物，每一种结构都不一样。

They make over 500, 600 different versions of these metabolites, all different structures.

我们在临床上已经用过其中一种。

We use one in the clinic.

所以我觉得另外那四百九十九种分子也值得深入研究，弄清楚它们对这些能活上千年的树到底有什么作用。

So I think that the other molecules, the other four ninety nine are also worth investigating, understanding what are they doing for these trees that are able to live for thousands of years.

再进一步说，这些分子有没有可能被开发成治疗人类疾病的药物？

And then furthermore, how could they be leveraged perhaps as medicines for human disease?

是的，我很高兴你提到这一点，因为这其实才是关键所在。

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because it kind of buries the lead.

为什么紫杉树会合成一种抗癌药物？

Like why is a Yew tree making a cancer drug?

你能说说目前我们知道它到底在起什么作用吗？

So can you give, what is known about what it's doing?

树本身应该不会得癌症吧。

Presumably trees don't get cancer.

不过说不准，谁知道呢。

Actually who knows?

但我们有没有什么线索，知道它为什么要合成这种物质呢？毕竟这些分子结构非常复杂。

But do we have any insight as to why it's making because these are very complicated molecules.

据我所知，人类花了很长时间才勉强能从头合成这些分子。

And my understanding is it took a long time for humans to figure out how to make these molecules kind of from scratch.

对。

Yeah.

很多时候，当我们把某种分子用于临床治疗时，可能只是巧合——人体内的靶点恰好和植物中进化出的靶点相似。

Often I think when we use a molecule in the clinic for treatment of humans, that it's sort of a coincidence that there's something about the target in humans that is similar to the evolved target in the plant.

所以，再次强调，红豆杉的进化压力显然不是为了治疗癌症。

So certainly, again, the Yew tree likely the selective pressure was not for cancer treatment.

但很可能是为了对抗那些快速分裂的细胞，比如病原体。

However, it was for cells that are growing really fast, likely pathogens.

你想啊，要是你身上有个伤口，不小心埋进土里，很快就会感染。

I mean, just think about like, if you had a cut and you sort of buried it in dirt, quickly you might get an infection.

这些植物在土壤里活了几千年，却很少生病，对吧？

These plants are living for thousands of years in the soil and they just don't get sick, right?

它们能够长期存活。

They're able to persist.

所以这些分子在应对这个问题上起着关键作用。

So these molecules have a really important role in dealing with that.

我猜像紫杉醇这样的物质，它能结合微管蛋白，而微管蛋白就像是细胞的骨架。

My guess for something like Taxol, which actually binds to tubulins, that's like the skeleton of cells.

细胞分裂时，尤其是快速分裂时，这个骨架至关重要，而紫杉醇可能正是针对生长在植物表面的真菌病原体，抑制它们在植物组织上繁殖。

The skeleton is super important when cells are dividing, especially when they're dividing fast is that it targets perhaps like a fungal pathogen that might be growing on the plant and it prevents growth on the plant tissue.

这是《未来一切》节目。

This is The Future of Everything.

我是拉塞尔·阿尔特曼，接下来我们将继续与贝丝·萨特利对话。

I'm Russ Altman and we'll have more with Beth Sattely next.

欢迎回到《未来一切》。

Welcome back to The Future of Everything.

我是拉塞尔·阿尔特曼，今天与来自斯坦福大学的贝丝·萨特利对话。

I'm Russ Altman, and I'm speaking with Beth Sattely from Stanford University.

上一段我们了解到，植物产生的化学物质可以被利用和改造，帮助它们适应气候变化或抵抗疾病。

In the last segment, we heard about how chemicals created by plants can be used and engineered to help them adapt to the climate or to resist diseases.

我们也听到，这些物质在人类健康方面可能也有应用前景。

We also heard that they might have applications in human health.

在这一段里，我们会进一步了解这些人类健康应用具体会如何发展。

In this segment, we're gonna learn a little bit more about how those human applications might go.

同时，我们还会听到整个领域如何朝着为植物打造更美好未来的方向迈进。

And we'll also hear about how the field in general is moving towards engineering a better future for plants.

所以，Beth，你做的这些事情真让我惊叹。

So Beth, I'm amazed at the range of things that you do.

我刚才提到的合成生物学，你现在也开始关注食物过敏和植物作为食物的问题了。

The things I just mentioned, synthetic biology, you've begun to look now at food allergies and plants as food.

接下来你打算研究什么？

What are you thinking about doing next?

我之前提到过柑橘黄龙病，但除此之外，你认为未来最大的机会在哪里？

I mean, I already suggested that you work on citrus greening, but other than that, what's the future hold and where are you seeing the best opportunities?

是的，到目前为止，我们最想知道的是植物是怎么合成这些分子的，以及植物体内到底有多少种不同的分子结构。

Yeah, I think one of our biggest questions up until now has been how do plants make these molecules and what the cornucopia of different molecular entities and plants?

接下来。

Going forward.

我们非常期待能更深入地了解这些分子究竟有什么作用。

I think we're really excited to better understand what do these molecules do.

这大致可以分为两个方面。

And there's sort of two arenas.

一个是它们对植物本身有什么作用？

One is what do they do for plants?

也就是它们如何促进植物的健康？

So how do they benefit plant health?

另一个方面是，植物的化学物质如何造福人类健康？

And then the other side is how does the chemistry of plants benefit human health?

很好。

Great.

那你们怎么把这个问题转化成实验室里的研究项目呢？

And so how do you reduce that to a research project in your lab?

你们有哪些合作方？

Who are the collaborators?

面对这些复杂的问题，你们是怎么定位自己的？

How do you situate yourself in some of these issues, which are very complex?

比如，任何跟健康相关的事，都会牵扯到临床系统、监管机构和产业界的人。

For example, anything having to do with health will involve, you know, clinical systems, regulatory folks, industrial folks.

你是怎么看待这个问题的？

How do you think about that?

对。

Yeah.

我来谈谈在人类健康这一块。

So I'll talk about on the human side.

我特别感兴趣的是植物化学物质的作用机制，以及它们在预防医学中的潜力。

I'm really interested in how plant chemistry, again, how it functions and how it can be valuable in a preventative context.

说到人类健康，我真正关心的是，我们该如何预防未来的疾病？

So when it comes to human health, I think where my heart really lies is how do we prevent disease going forward?

在这方面，我觉得饮食是一个特别有前景的方向。

And so there, I think that diet is a really exciting place to work.

你想一想，我们每天每顿饭吃进去的东西，其实是对环境接触最频繁的途径。

When you think about it, it's like our biggest exposure to the environment is what we put in our mouths at every meal.

你的消化道表面积比一个网球场还大。

The area of your digestive tract is bigger than a tennis court.

所有的环境接触，都发生在这里。

That's where all our exposure is happening.

所以我们必须更深入地思考：我们吃进去的东西到底是什么，它们如何影响健康，又如何帮助预防疾病。

And so I think we need to think a lot more critically about what is coming in and how does it influence human health and the prevention of disease.

我们现在开始着手的一个具体方向是食物过敏，因为这清楚地体现了饮食和免疫系统之间的关联。

One concrete place that we're starting to work is in the area of food allergy, because that's a very clear connection between diet and then your immune system.

确实，从小我就听人说要多吃蔬菜水果，对身体好，这话说了这么多年，但我也不清楚我们到底落实了多少。

Yeah, you know, that really rings true because we've heard ever since I've been a little kid and that's a long time ago, you know, eat your vegetables, eat your fruits, it's good for you, But I don't know the degree to which we've gotten.

当然，那是因为里面含有膳食纤维。

And then of course it'll became because there's fiber there.

好吧，纤维，明白了。

Okay, fine, fiber, check.

但正如你刚才说的，食物里还有成千上万种其他分子。

But as you've just said, there are tons of other molecules.

其中很多可能对身体有益。

Many of them are probably beneficial.

但也有一些可能没那么好。

Some of them might not be.

我们对这些物质的全貌了解多少呢？

Do we have a good understanding of the full range?

听起来我们其实并不清楚，就连日常吃的那些水果蔬菜里，到底有哪些分子在起作用，我们都还没搞明白。

It sounds like no, we don't have a good understanding of the full range of molecules, even in the foods that we are eating routinely, the fruits and vegetables that we get at the store.

从你的角度看，这些全都是尚未被研究透彻的化学系统，里面说不定藏着大量有价值的东西。

And it's interesting to think about from your perspective, these are all uncharacterized chemical systems that might have a lot of gold in there.

是的。

Yeah.

更值得思考的是，你其实已经给自己服用了这些分子。

What's even more interesting to think about is you've already sort of prescribed yourself with these molecules.

每顿饭吃东西的时候，你都在摄入毫克级别的类药物分子，但我们根本不清楚它们对健康有什么影响。

Taking milligram quantities of drug like molecules at every meal when you eat and we don't really know how they affect your health.

这简直是在倒着做药物研发。

So it's sort of the reverse of drug discovery.

你已经在用了，现在我们反而要问：它们到底起什么作用？

You're already taking them, now we have to ask about what exactly do they do.

没错，而且正如你所说，即便那些有益的物质，偶尔也会引发过敏。

Yes, and then for all the good ones, as you point out, every now and then there's an allergy.

我有过食物过敏，那可是大事，为了能吃龙虾卷，我不得不接受非常先进的治疗。

I've had food allergies and it was a huge deal and I had to go through very high-tech treatments in order to be able to eat lobster rolls.

这个就不细说了。

We won't go through that.

像花生这样的东西，经常会出现问题。

But like things like peanuts, peanuts come up all the time.

所以当你看过敏原和过敏反应时，以你们的专业背景，你们觉得有什么机会？

So when you look at allergens and allergies, what is the opportunity that you see for your group with your expertise?

是的，说实话，食物过敏这个领域对我们来说还很陌生。

Yeah, so I think the food allergy space is very new to us.

我们本身没有免疫学方面的专长。

We do not have immunology expertise.

我们一直在和那些精通免疫系统语言的人合作。

We've been collaborating with others that are seeped in the language of the immune system.

我逐渐明白，我们现在才刚开始弄清楚很多东西。

And what I've come to understand is that there's a lot that we're starting to dissect.

一旦你对某种食物产生敏感，过敏反应是怎么发展的？

Once you are sensitized to a food, how does an allergy progress?

这种过敏反应具体是怎样的？

What is the response, the allergic response?

从细胞和分子层面来看，这具体是怎样的过程？

What does that look like on a cell and molecular level?

但还有一个关键问题：为什么人一开始会发展出过敏？

But there's this big open question about why do you develop allergies in the first place?

就是致敏的这个阶段。

The sensitization part.

因此，我的实验室正试图从植物化学的角度提供一些见解。

And so my lab's trying to contribute our understanding of the chemistry of plants.

花生本质上是一堆蛋白质、小分子和脂质组合在一起的产物。

A peanut after all is a bunch of proteins and small molecules and lipids all bundled together.

它其实是花生的胚胎。

It's the embryo of the peanut.

那么，究竟是花生的哪一部分，让它比其他食物更容易引发致敏？

So what about that is resulting in sensitization at much higher frequencies compared to other foods?

我们正努力在这上面取得突破。

That's where we're trying to make it some strides.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我拿花生当例子，但你们实际研究的是这个系统吗？还是说还有其他过敏系统引起了你们的初步关注？

And so I picked peanut as an example, but are you actually looking at that system or are there other allergy systems that have caught your initial attention?

对，这挺有意思的。

Yeah, it's interesting.

我们一开始其实是从过敏的另一面来思考的。

One of the places that we've actually started is to think about the other side of the coin when it comes to allergy.

不是那些最终引发过敏的东西，而是当你正常吃东西、又不会过敏的时候，你的免疫系统其实并不是在无所事事。

So not necessarily things that ultimately cause allergy, but your immune system is not just hanging around doing nothing when you normally eat food and you don't have an allergy.

事实上，它一直在接触各种食物，并且在抑制免疫反应。

In fact, it's seeing all that food and it's dampening the immune response.

所以我们现在关注的是耐受性。

So we're thinking about tolerance.

在那种更正常的、我们希望人人都能保持的状态下，食物中有哪些分子会被免疫细胞识别为完全安全、完全不需要启动免疫反应的？

So in the more normal state that we like everyone to be in, what are the molecules from food that are recognized by immune cells and interpreted as totally safe, no immune response needed?

所以我们关注的是这一面的化学机制。

So we're thinking about that chemistry on that side.

没错，这说得通，毕竟这是同一枚硬币的两面。理解耐受是如何形成的，显然能帮我们看清当耐受缺失时的差异，也能启发我们如何重建耐受。

Yeah, that makes sense because it is two sides of a coin and understanding how the tolerance happens, obviously, I think I can say obviously, will give you insights into the differences when there's not tolerance and also how maybe to bring the tolerance.

我本来想问，作为一位化学工程师，当你观察这些系统时，你最理想的情况是什么？你希望这项研究最终能带来什么改变？

So I was gonna ask, as a chemical engineer looking at these systems, what is the ideal, like what would you love to happen with respect to your relationship to this research?

你是不是希望找到某种小分子组合，或者某些植物成分，能用来帮助提升身体对原本引发过敏物质的耐受性？

Would you like to figure out like maybe cocktails of small molecules or plants that you could give to try to help increase tolerance for things that are otherwise causing allergies?

是的，我觉得我们面临的一个根本性问题，其实也具有很强的转化应用价值。

Yeah, so I think one of the fundamental questions we have also has a lot of translational aspects.

比如当你吃一颗花生的时候，它里面充满了蛋白质。

So I would like to know when you eat a peanut, it's filled with proteins.

里面有着成千上万种不同的分子。

There's tons of different molecules there.

那么这些分子中，到底有多少比例是关键因素？

How much of that peanut, what percent is it?

蛋白质的1%或者0.1%，你的免疫系统只要识别出这么一点，就能判断整个东西其实是安全的？

1%, 0.1% of the protein does your immune system have recognize in order to determine that the whole thing is essentially safe?

这些关键的特征到底是什么？

What are the signatures?

那些在耐受中起作用的特征，和让你过敏的那些是一样的，还是完全不同的？

And are those signatures that are valuable in the context of tolerance, the same thing you become allergic to or are they different?

如果它们不一样，那我们或许就能用花生里极小的一部分，帮助原本对花生过敏的人重新建立耐受。

Because if they're different, then we might be able to just use those small portions of a peanut in order to get someone who is currently allergic back to a tolerant state.

是的，这确实非常有意思。

Yeah, this is really interesting stuff.

《科学》杂志刚发表了一篇论文，讲鸟类失去了感知酸味的能力。

There was just a paper in Science Magazine about how birds have lost some ability to taste sourness.

你总看到它们吃一些我们根本没法吃的浆果，结果发现，这些浆果对它们来说尝起来都一样。

Because you're always seeing these birds eating berries that we can't eat, and it turns out that they taste the same to them.

这跟我们说的有点类似：当我们接触这些植物时，其实是在‘品尝’这些不同的小分子。

So this is a little bit related in that as we get exposure to these plants, we're tasting, I'm using tasting in quotes, these different small molecules.

那饮食方面呢？

What about for diet?

所以，有没有可能通过改造植物，让它们变得更健康，或者提供它们通常不具备的营养？

So is there a sense that you would start engineering plants to be more healthy or to provide nutrients that they don't normally provide?

这是一个研究方向吗？

Is that a direction?

我觉得这是一个非常棒的研究方向，特别是针对那些我们已经了解、且清楚所需摄入量的微量营养素。

I think that's a really cool line of research when there's like a micronutrient that's really, we know about it, we know the quantities that are required.

这是人类自身无法合成、必须通过饮食摄取的东西。

It's something we can't make as humans that we have to acquire in our diet.

确实有一群人，即便在目标明确且我们对其机制已有足够了解的情况下，依然无法获取它。

And there's groups of people that are not receiving it when it's really that targeted and we understand it enough.

在这种情况下，我觉得进行工程化改造是合理的。

Then I think engineering makes sense.

但对于我们在食物中遇到的绝大多数分子，我们还在努力搞清楚它们的具体作用。

But for the vast majority of the molecules that we encounter in food, we're still trying to figure out exactly what they do.

你提到的鸟类例子真的很有趣。

And actually your bird example is super interesting.

对吧？

Right?

这让我想到植物健康这个领域。

And this takes me over to sort of the plant health space.

我觉得，这些分子在植物与环境互动中的作用，也可能在被人摄入后影响人体。

I think, you know, the role of these molecules and how plants interact with their environment also can those same compounds can have an effect on humans when they're consumed.

我们体内有感受这些分子的味觉受体。

So we have taste receptors that are responding to those molecules.

它们不只是分布在口腔里，而是遍布整个消化道。

They actually, they're not just in our mouths, they line the entire gut.

这些受体对我们如何回应所吃的食物起着重要作用。

And those have a large role in how we respond to the food we eat.

说得非常好。

Really good.

那么最后，我想问问，你是怎么培养下一代的？

Well, so to end up, I'm just wondering, how are you training the next generation?

比如说，当你看实验室里的年轻科学家，或者本科生的时候，你对未来的前景怎么看？

Like what is the, how does it look with respect to the future when you look at the young scientists in your lab or even an undergraduate?

我记得你提到过你的课程。

I think you made a reference to some of your classes.

你觉得植物生物工程和化学这个领域的未来会怎样？

How does the future look for the field of plant bioengineering and chemistry?

是的。

Yeah.

你看那些学生，所有的灵感和希望都在他们身上。

I mean, if you look at the students, that's where all the inspiration and hope is.

我觉得特别振奋。

I think that I'm excited.

我简直被学生们的批判性思维、他们对可持续发展以及解决人类和环境健康问题的热情深深打动。

I am just in awe of my students' critical thinking skills, of their excitement and enthusiasm for sustainability and addressing problems in human and environmental health.