The future of fungi

这里是斯坦福大学的《万物未来》，我是您的主持人奥特曼。

This is Stanford's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Altman.

自从八年前我们启动这个播客以来，它已经成了记录斯坦福大学同事们杰出且富有影响力工作的宝库。

Since we started this podcast eight years ago, it's become an archive of the amazing and impactful work done by my colleagues at Stanford University.

在这个信息爆炸、真假难辨的时代，我很自豪能为您带来法律、医学、工程、科技等领域的专家。

In a time when the sheer volume of information available to us can make our head spin and make it hard to determine what's accurate, I'm proud to be able to bring you experts in law, medicine, engineering, technology, and much more.

真菌、霉菌和蘑菇特别有趣的一点是，它们是大自然的回收者。

One of the really interesting things about fungi and molds and mushrooms is that they are nature's recyclers.

它们本质上就是大自然的生物回收系统。

They're basically nature's biological recycling machines.

它们生长在我们眼中的废弃物上，比如木头、树叶。

They grow on what we consider waste, wood, leaves.

它们会把这些东西分解、吃掉，然后消化掉。

You know, they basically will just chop that up and eat it and digest it.

所以，我们实验室的核心想法是：如何利用真菌这种天然能力，去处理食物残渣、农业废弃物，甚至塑料，再把它们转化成有用的东西。

So our idea here, I think at the core of the lab is how can we tap into that natural ability to eat food waste or agricultural waste, maybe even plastics, and then use the fungi to then convert that into something useful.

这里是斯坦福工程学院的《万物未来》，我是主持人阿尔特曼。

This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Altman.

如果这个播客对你有帮助，欢迎给个评分和评论，让我们知道你的想法。

If this podcast brings you value, then consider rating and reviewing it to show your appreciation and to give us some feedback.

如果我们配得上五分，那就给个五星吧，非常感谢你分享你的看法。

We'd love to get a five point o if we deserve it, and thank you very much for giving us your thoughts.

今天，瓦尤·希尔-梅尼将告诉我们，蘑菇和霉菌不仅能提供营养，还能成为新药和新材料的来源。

Today, Vayu Hill-Maini will tell us that mushrooms and molds can be the source of nutrition, new medications, as well as new materials.

这关乎未来的食物。

It's the future of food.

提醒一下，在我和瓦尤的对话结束时，我们会进入‘一分钟未来’环节，我会问他一些快速问题。

A quick reminder that at the end of my conversation with Vayu, we'll do the segment, the future in a minute, where I ask him some rapid fire questions.

他会迅速作答，这就是‘一分钟未来’。

He'll give me some rapid answers and that'll be the future in a minute.

在开始之前，别忘了给节目评分和评论，这真的很有帮助。

Again, before we get started, remember to rate and review the show, it really does help.

你知道吗，一提到霉菌和蘑菇，我们通常会想到两回事。

You know, when we think about molds and mushrooms, there's a couple of things we can think about.

一是那些我们最爱的、加在饭菜里特别香的蘑菇。

We can think about our favorite, most delicious mushrooms that we love added to our food.

用橄榄油炒一炒，再加点蒜，随便怎么弄都好吃。

We saute in olive oil, we add some garlic, whatever.

真的特别美味。

It can be very delicious.

但另一方面，我们也会想到长在腐烂东西上的霉菌和蘑菇。

But we also think about molds and mushrooms that grow on dead stuff.

比如放久的水果上长的那些东西，想想就有点恶心。

We know that there's kind of gross stuff on old fruit.

有时候在外面看到湿漉漉的木头，上面长满了真菌和蘑菇，看着就不怎么讨喜。

We see outside sometimes a piece of wood that's moist, has fungus and mushrooms growing all over it, not so attractive.

不过，人类用蘑菇当食物的历史可悠久了，几千年都没断过。

But we've been using foods like mushrooms forever, for thousands of years.

至于植物、蔬菜和动物，人类长期以来一直在进行驯化培育，慢慢选育出更大更美味的玉米，让牛肉和猪肉更适合食用——当然，如果你吃肉的话。

And in other cases like plants and vegetables and animals, there's a long history of husbandry where we slowly and selectively breed them to make the corn bigger and more tasty, to make the beef or the pigs better for eating if if you're a meat eater and things like that.

但有意思的是，蘑菇几千年来看起来几乎没什么变化。

Well, turns out that for mushrooms, they really look about the same that they looked thousands of years ago.

它们的外形变化不大，却一直是重要且优质的食材。

They haven't changed that much and yet they're a great and important source of food.

它们富含蛋白质、维生素、碳水化合物，还有像抗氧化物这样的活性成分。

They have protein, they have vitamins, they have carbohydrates and they have molecules like antioxidants.

所以，蘑菇的价值非常高。

So they're very valuable.

瓦尤·希尔-梅尼既是生物工程学教授，也是一位米其林星级厨师，他特别感兴趣的是通过工程手段改造这些真菌，让它们变得更美味。

Well, Vayu Hill-Maini is both a professor of bioengineering and a Michelin star chef who is very interested in engineering these molds and mushrooms to become delicious foods.

但不仅如此，他还觉得，真菌还应该成为新药的重要来源。

But more than that, he thinks that they should also be a source of new medications.

历史上，蘑菇早就为我们提供了多种药物，也可能是未来新型彩色材料的来源。

There's a long history of mushrooms providing us some of our medications and a source of new and potentially colorful materials.

Vayu，非常感谢你加入我们。

Vayu, thanks so much for joining us.

首先，你一直是个厨师，而且是个相当出色的厨师。

And to start out, you've been a chef, a pretty darn good chef.

现在你又成了研究型大学的生物工程教授。

And now you're a professor of bioengineering at a research university.

这中间是怎么发生的呢？

How did that happen?

有时候我也会问自己，这到底是怎么发生的。

Sometimes I wonder how that happened myself too.

回头看看这段经历，确实走过了不少弯路，但大致是这样的：我从小在瑞典斯德哥尔摩的一个多元文化家庭长大。

I think, looking back at the journey, it's taken its own twists and turns, but the sort of story is that I grew up in Sweden, in Stockholm in a multicultural home.

我很小的时候就爱上了烹饪。

And I fell in love with cooking when I was really young.

所以很长一段时间里，我都觉得这辈子就想做厨师，分享美食，通过味道去探索不同的文化。

And so for a long time, I kind of thought that's what I wanted to do in life, to cook and to share food and to explore culture through flavor.

我当初从瑞典搬到美国，就是为了实现这个梦想，一直在餐厅和食品行业打拼。

And I originally moved to The US from Sweden to pursue that dream, working in restaurants, working in food.

正是在厨房里的这些经历，让我真正发现了科学的魅力。

And it was during these experiences in the kitchen that I actually discovered science.

这不只是因为科学本身很酷、很鼓舞人心，更因为它为我提供了一种全新的视角来看待食物。

Not only because science is cool, inspiring and awesome, but because for me, it provided a new lens to which I could look at food.

厨房里，从烹饪到我们吃的食物，处处都藏着工程、物理、化学和生物的原理。

There's engineering, there's physics, there's chemistry, there's biology in the kitchen, the food we eat.

通过运用这些知识，我们真的能让食物变得更好、更有趣、也更可持续。

And by applying this, we could actually make food better, more interesting, more sustainable.

正是这个顿悟，让我决定去攻读博士，投身研究，继续走这条路。

And so it's kind of that realization that then led me to go into do a PhD, to do research and sort of continue on that journey.

而这一切，始终都和我对食物的热爱紧密相连。

And it's always been kind of connected to my interest in food.

所以现在作为教授，我其实还在‘做饭’，只是方式不一样了——用的是不同的试剂和原料，换了个地方而已。

So I would say that now as a professor, I'm still cooking, but it's in a different way, you know, with different kinds of reagents and ingredients in a different setting.

这就是我的整个历程。

That's sort of the journey.

我一直都想找到办法，把食物和科学联系起来。

I've always wanted to find ways to connect food and science.

这太棒了。

That's fabulous.

我们待会儿肯定会聊食物和科学，但我觉得特别有意思的是，据我了解，大学招聘新教职员工时，都会配实验室，装通风柜、实验台，准备移液器和各种设备。而我听说，你建实验室的时候，不只是有实验台那些东西，还专门建了个厨房？

And we're definitely gonna talk about both food and science, but it's just really interesting to me because as I understand it, you know, whenever we hire at a university, new faculty member, they get a laboratory and we make the hoods and we make the benches, you know, so for the pipettes and all the equipment, my understanding is that as part of your build out of your lab, there's not just all of the lab benches and stuff, but there's also a kitchen?

没错。

Exactly.

其实从很小的时候，我就一直梦想着，怎么才能把这两个世界融合在一起。

I mean, that's been one of my dreams since I was very young, kind of how can we bring these worlds together?

过去它们基本上是完全分开的。

They traditionally kind of live pretty separately.

高端餐厅一直在推动美食和烹饪的前沿。

You have the high end restaurants pushing the frontiers of gastronomy and cooking.

另一方面，实验室在探索宇宙的内在运作。

And on the other hand, you have labs discovering the inner workings of the universe.

但我相信，当这两个世界交汇时，会产生某种奇妙的化学反应。

But I think there's a magic that can happen when those worlds come together.

当我思考自己人生想做什么时，一直很困惑，这两个身份和兴趣该怎么融合在一起。

And, you know, as I was thinking about what I wanted to do in my life and, you know, always being kind of confused about how these two identities and interests could fit together.

我发现斯坦福特别让人兴奋和鼓舞，因为他们好像真的懂这一点。

I found that, you know, Stanford was really exciting and inspiring because they were like, they sort of got it.

他们说，你知道吗？

And they said, you know what?

我觉得这真的可以做到。

I think this is possible.

我们可以建一个厨房，建一个实验室，而且把它们结合起来。

We can build a kitchen, we can build a lab and we can build them together.

实验室差不多建好了，厨房也快完工了，这简直是我梦想成真。

And you know, the lab is sort of finished, the kitchen is soon finished and yeah, it's, I mean, it's a dream come true.

我真期待看到它会带来什么成果。

I can't wait to see what comes from it.

这确实让人兴奋。

It really is exciting.

还有两个实际的问题。

And two logistical questions.

我猜为了安全，他们得把厨房和实验室隔开。

I'm assuming that they have to separate the kitchen from the lab for safety reasons.

没错。

Exactly.

其次，那

Secondly, That's

说句私心话，能不能设个小小的咖啡角或者桌子，让我能坐下来尝尝你们做的东西？

selfishly, what about a little cafe or a table where I can sit down and try your stuff?

这个你得去跟斯坦福那边商量。

You're gonna have to talk to Stanford about that.

开玩笑的。

Just kidding.

我们的厨房会设有面向斯坦福社群和公众的互动区域，希望借此吸引大家来参与、学习，并亲身体验未来食物的模样。

We will have as part of our kitchen, hopefully outreach and engagement with the Stanford community and also the public as a way to kind of bring people in and teach them and have them taste what the future of food could look like.

所以厨房的设计里，我们会留出一小块区域，让大家能坐下来，边看边尝，感受食物制作的过程。

And so part of the kitchen sort of design is to have a little sort of area where people can sit and interact and taste as things are being prepared.

当然，作为研究的一部分，我们在开发新食材或新口味时，也会开展感官测试。

And of course, as part of our research, we're also gonna run sensory trials as we develop something new with new ingredients or new flavors.

我们想了解大家的真实反馈，收集数据，用来优化产品。

We wanna see what do people think and collect data on that to inform how we make them better.

我觉得这会是个绝佳的机会，让大家能亲身参与，看看我们目前的进展。

So I think that will be an awesome opportunity for people to get involved and sort of see where we're at.

好的。

Okay.

预约开放时记得告诉我，我来订个位子。

Let me know when reservations open up and I'll get an open table.

好的。

Okay.

我们稍微深入一点科学层面吧。我知道，当然我不想限制讨论范围，但你们工作中的一个主要方向是真菌、蘑菇，还有霉菌这些。

Getting into the science a little bit, I know that, and I don't wanna, of course I don't wanna limit what we talk about, but one of the main areas of focus in your work has been fungi mushrooms and other things and molds.

所以在深入讲你们具体做些什么之前，我觉得你最好先给大家解释一下：蘑菇、真菌和霉菌到底是什么样的东西？

And so before we get into what the actual science is and what you're doing, I I think it would be useful for you to explain to people what are mushrooms and fungi and molds like?

我们都见过它们，大概也知道它们是什么，但从生物学角度，作为学者，你能说说它们的生活方式、怎么生长，以及历史上人们是怎么把它们当食物用的吗？

We all see them, we kind of generally know what they are, but biologically, as an academic, tell me about the lifestyle and how they grow and what their history of, maybe a little bit of their history of use as foods.

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

在这个地方，比如美国，很多人对真菌可能有点陌生，心里嘀咕：真菌？这玩意儿我也不太了解。

I think for a lot of fungi people in the world, maybe in this part of the world, we're in The US, people might be a little bit like, Oh, fungi, like, Oh, I don't know about that.

但在其他文化里，人们其实特别热衷，因为用真菌、吃真菌的历史非常悠久。

Other cultures, people are really excited and embracing because there's a long history of using and consuming and interacting with them.

简单来说，真菌是生命树上的一个独立界。

But basically, fungi are a kingdom in the tree of life.

真菌包括像酿酒酵母这样的酵母，用来制作面包和啤酒。

Fungi encompass the yeasts like Saccharomyces cerevisiae used to make bread and beer.

这可能是大家最熟悉的真菌了。

That's probably the most familiar fungus of them all.

你刚说什么？

What did say?

而且很有价值。

And valuable.

啤酒和面包。

Beer and bread.

光是这两样，我们就已经值了。

You know, we could stop right there.

没错。

Exactly.

但我觉得，酿酒酵母真的很厉害。

But I think, you know, saccharomyces is awesome.

挺酷的。

It's cool.

它能做出很好吃的东西。

It makes tasty things.

我特别感兴趣另一类真菌，叫丝状真菌。

I'm really excited about another group of fungi called the filamentous fungi.

那些长成多细胞丝状结构的真菌。

The fungi that grow as multicellular filaments.

它们不像酵母那样是单细胞，而是形成一种网络状的组织，叫做菌丝体。

So instead of a single cell like a yeast, they grow as these sort of network and tissue called mycelium.

这包括霉菌——比如你冰箱里坏掉的水果上长的那层绒毛，还有蘑菇，你在森林里或者超市里看到的那种。

And that includes both molds, sort of the fluffy stuff you might see growing on a, you know, spoiled fruit in your fridge, well as mushrooms, the things you might see in the forest growing or at the grocery store.

这些丝状真菌有着非常有趣的历史。

And these fungi, these filamentous fungi have a really interesting history.

它们也被用来生产食物，已经有几千年的历史了。

They've also been used for food production for thousands of years as well.

蓝纹奶酪或卡门贝尔奶酪之所以能制成，全靠一种叫青霉的霉菌。

Blue cheese or Camembert Brie are only made possible because of filamentous fungi, a mold called Penicillium.

酱油、味噌、清酒的制作，也离不开一种叫曲霉的霉菌。

Soy sauce, miso, sake, only made possible because of a mold called Aspergillus.

尽管我们可能没意识到，这些真菌无处不在，而且为人类带来了许多重要的创新。

So even though we might not know that they're ubiquitous in our lives and they've been the source of many important innovations that have really had an impact on humanity.

比如，青霉素就是从青霉菌中发现的。

For example, penicillin came from Penicillium molds.

降胆固醇的他汀类药物，也源自丝状真菌。

Statins, the cholesterol lowering drugs also came from filamentous fungi.

像裸盖菇素这样的致幻物质，就来自某些蘑菇。

Psychedelics like psilocybin come from mushrooms.

所以除了作为食物，它们在商业上也极为重要，对社会产生了深远影响。

So I would say in addition to their use as food, they've been very important sort of commercially and had a very powerful impact on our society.

是的，这太棒了。

Yeah, so this is great.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这番总结太棒了，简直像你以前讲过很多遍一样，把真菌在食物中的作用说得清清楚楚。

So that was a beautiful, almost as if you've done it before, summary of the role of these foods.

那我来问几个具体的问题。

So let me ask a few detailed questions.

真菌有没有被人类驯化过？

Have funguses or fungi, have they been domesticated?

我的意思是，我们吃的很多食物都有很长的培育历史。

And what I mean by that is for many of the foods that we eat, there's a long history of husbandry.

先不谈实验室里的基因工程，单说普通人怎么一点点选育，让它们长得更大、味道更好。

Forget about the bioengineering within the lab, just people who are like nudging the things to become bigger, to become more tasty.

这种事有没有在真菌身上发生过？

This something that has happened to these fungi over time?

有的，确实发生过。

Yes, it has.

如果你看看霉菌和蘑菇的区别，其实挺有意思的。

And it's interesting if you look at sort of molds versus mushrooms.

比如用来制作蓝纹奶酪的青霉菌，或者用来酿酱油的曲霉，几千年来它们的基因已经发生了明显变化。

So in the case of molds like Penicillium used to make blue cheese or aspergillus used to make soy sauce, you actually see that over time, over thousands of years of history, there's been significant genetic changes.

本质上，这些霉菌已经被驯化了——在野外，它们为了争夺养分，会拼命抑制周围其他生物的生长。

Basically they've been tamed, maybe in the wild they're competing for nutrients and they're trying to kill off everything around them.

但人类开始培养它们之后，它们就变得温和多了，我们通过这种近乎实验性的进化方式，慢慢改变了它们的味道、质地和外观。

But as humans have sort of taken them under their care, they become more friendly and we've changed their flavors, their textures, their appearance, all by kind of modifying the DNA through this sort of experimental evolution process almost.

对，就像选育一样，你看到一头大牛，想养更大的牛，就让这头牛繁殖，或者你看到一个大的

Yes, kind like selection, like you get a big cow, want a big cow, you let that cow reproduce, And or you get a big

这其实只是几个典型的例子。

piece really of a few examples of that.

比如我们发现了一种叫中间新脉孢菌的真菌，它被驯化用来把废弃物转化成食物。

Like we have discovered, for example, a fungus called Neurospora Intermedia that was domesticated to turn waste into food.

人们以前在印度尼西亚，会把它种在豆浆渣或者其他废弃物上。

People grow it on soy milk waste or other kind of sources, it's historically in Indonesia.

通过这个过程，它被驯化成专门利用人类通常不吃的东西，并把它们转化成食物。

And through that process, it was domesticated to basically say, let me grow on stuff that humans normally don't eat and turn it into food.

这方面的例子还有很多，都很有意思。

So there's a lot of cool examples.

我觉得我们才刚刚开始了解这些。

And I think we're just scratching the surface.

不过我要说一下，说到蘑菇，你在超市里看到的那些，其实是一种重要的农作物，对吧？

I do wanna say though, when it comes to mushrooms, the things that you see in the grocery stores, that's a major, I would say, food crop, right?

我们有植物，也有蘑菇。

You have plants and you have mushrooms.

我们种植它们，培育它们。

We cultivate them, we grow them.

植物的形态和外观已经发生了巨大的变化。

Plants have undergone dramatic changes their morphology, their shape.

但蘑菇的样子，跟几千年前几乎没什么两样。

Mushrooms are very similar to how they used to be back in the day.

最明显的差别可能是棕色的蘑菇变成了白色，你知道吧？

Maybe the biggest noticeable difference is the brown mushroom turned white, you know?

但还有很多方面，我觉得我们可能还不够了解，而且我觉得我们对蘑菇的驯化程度，还没达到像其他真菌那样的水平。

But there's a lot of kind of, I think maybe we don't understand enough, but I also don't think we have domesticated them quite as much as we have with the other fungi.

是的，比如我们常看到玉米的图片，野生玉米只有五颗左右，长得歪歪扭扭的。

Yes, because we see these pictures, for example, of corn and the natural corn, you know, five kernels, all kind of gnarly looking.

可我们去超市买的玉米，却长得又漂亮又整齐。

And then we buy the corn at the store and it's beautiful.

每一粒都整整齐齐地排着。

Everything's in array.

颜色金黄，味道香甜。

It's yellow, it's sweet.

但我听你的意思，这种变化在蘑菇身上还没发生。

But what I'm hearing you say is that has not happened yet.

敬请期待。

And stay tuned.

蘑菇还没发生这种变化。

It has not happened yet for the mushrooms.

对，没到那个程度。

Yeah, not same extent.

农民有尝试过吗？

Farmers try to do this?

因为据我所知，农民们多年来一直非常有创造力，他们总在想办法提高收益。

Because farmers, you know, in my experience, farmers over the year, over the years have been incredibly like, you know, innovative in, you know, they get money.

他们试过吗？为什么蘑菇还是老样子？是它们不容易被驯化吗？

Have they tried and have these mushrooms resisted kind of domestication or why do they look the same?

这确实是个好问题。

It's a good question, actually.

有时候，我们根本没注意到那些尝试。

I mean, sometimes we don't capture the attempts.

我们只看到最终的结果。

We only see the outcome of the process.

没错。

Right.

所以要我说出人们到底尝试了多少，这还真不好讲。

So it's hard for me to sort of say like, to what extent people try.

我觉得蘑菇可能比植物更神秘一些，我们对它们的生物学了解也相对有限。

I will say that like mushrooms, I think maybe are a little bit more mysterious than plants, you know, and maybe sort of our handle on their biology is a little bit more limited.

考虑到植物科学历史悠久，再加上分子生物学和遗传学的飞速发展，这方面已经取得了不少成功的案例，我们可以参考。

I think, you know, with the long history of plant science, as well as sort of the advances that we've seen in molecular biology and genetics, I think there's been a lot more sort of success cases and outcomes there that we can look to.

但蘑菇领域，研究和资源投入都少得多，而且它们的复杂性也不一样。

I think with mushrooms, like there hasn't been as much research and sort of resources and they are complex in a different way.

比如它们的性繁殖机制，怎么搞清楚这些，就挺麻烦的。

You know, as far as the sexual mating and how to figure that out and stuff.

确实有人做过育种，但还没达到那种根本改变蘑菇外形、味道或生长特性的程度。

So there has been breeding, I would say, but not to the same extent where you fundamentally have changed, you know, how it looks or tastes or how it behaves.

很好。

Great.

我知道，我们待会儿会谈到，你其中一个主要的科学目标是打造一套工具，让培育蘑菇变得更简单。

And I know, and we're gonna get to this, that one of your major scientific goals is to create a toolbox that will allow you to make it easier to engineer mushrooms, so to speak.

我们一会儿就讲到这个。

And we're gonna get to that.

在那之前，我想我最后一个问题关于基础背景是：现在大家对各种食物的营养价值都很清楚了。

Before that, think maybe my last question in terms of the foundations is people are very aware now of the value, the nutrition value of various things.

我们知道谷物好、坚果好，其他一些东西也不错，但说到蘑菇作为食物，大家对它的了解可能还远远不够。

We know that like grains are good and nuts are good and other things Tell maybe not so us about mushrooms as a food source as they exist now.

比如，它们是高蛋白、高碳水，还是富含维生素？

Like, are they a high source of protein or carbs or vitamins?

我知道蘑菇种类很多，你能不能帮我概括一下整体情况？

Give us a, and I know that there are a lot of different ones.

它们的营养构成大致是什么样的？

I'm asking you to kind of summarize the landscape a little bit.

可能很多人没意识到，真菌其实比植物跟人类更亲近，这意味着它们的营养需求和成分跟我们更相似。

Think one of the things that people might not appreciate is that, fungi are more closely related to us than plants are, which means that they have more similar nutritional requirements and profiles.

很多真菌都含有全部必需氨基酸，而有些植物反而没有。

So a lot of fungi contain all the essential amino acids, which some plants actually lack.

它们的蛋白质、消化性等方面，可能比植物更接近人体的需求。

And they have sort of maybe more similar proteins, digestibility and stuff compared to maybe plants.

此外，真菌还提供膳食纤维，以及B族维生素等营养素。

And on top of that, you know, fungi provide fiber, they also provide vitamins like B vitamins.

最后，还有一些不是维生素、但对健康有益的活性物质。

And then I think finally, potentially beneficial molecules that are not sort of vitamins, they're more like, yeah, beneficial molecules with sort of health benefits.

其中之一叫麦角硫因，是一种强效抗氧化剂，人类甚至进化出了专门吸收它的受体。

One of them is called ergothionein, which is a very powerful antioxidant humans have actually evolved a receptor to take up specifically.

因此，真菌在饮食中可能带来的药用或治疗潜力，是另一个值得重视的层面。

And so there's some examples of, you know, sort of medicinal sort of therapeutic potentially benefits of fungi that it's an additional layer maybe of what they could provide in the diet.

不过要注意的是，蘑菇含水量特别高。

Of the things though, is that, you know, mushrooms in particular are full of water.

所以尽管它们能提供蛋白质，但你吃下去的大部分其实都是水。

So even though they can be good source of protein, you know, a lot of what you're eating is water.

如果是的话，你其实

If Yes, you're

我知道，当我用橄榄油炒它们的时候，每次

I know this when I saute them in my olive But oil every

确实如此，我觉得很多人可能没意识到，但蘑菇确实富含多种重要营养素，优质氨基酸。

it is, you know, I think it is, it's interesting as people might not appreciate that, but they do, they come with a lot of significant nutrients, good amino acids.

而且我觉得最重要的是，它们很好吃。

And I think maybe most importantly, they're delicious.

很好，明白了。

Great, okay.

非常感谢你。

So now thank you so much.

现在我们来聊聊你的研究项目。

Now let's get to your research program.

能跟我们说说你们实验室在做些什么吗？无论是已经完成的，还是正在推进的，是什么推动着你们的研究？

Tell us the kinds of things that you're doing in the lab, either that you have done, or if you can tell us about things that are on the way, what drives the lab?

你们用的是哪些实验方法？

What are the experimental approaches?

能说说你们在培养模具和真菌方面的科学工作吗？

Tell us about the science of engineering molds and mushrooms.

是的，我们主要想解决可持续发展方面的难题。

Yeah, so, I mean, we're really motivated by addressing challenges in sustainability.

食品系统和制造业里有很多问题，我们觉得生物学在很多生活领域都能发挥作用。

We have a lot of challenges in the food system and manufacturing and a lot of sort of areas of our lives that we think that biology could play a role to address.

我们对真菌特别感兴趣。

And we're very excited about fungi.

真菌当然也有坏的一面，比如会引发作物病害，有时候还会让人生病。

Fungi, I wanna say, like there are bad stuff they do.

但我们更关注的是真菌能带来的好处，以及它们能为我们提供什么。

They cause, you know, disease to crops and they can also cause disease to humans in some cases.

我们对真菌能带来的正面价值充满期待。

But we're excited about the good stuff that fungi can do and what they can give us.

我们真正想做的，是利用这种潜力来应对可持续发展方面的挑战。

And really kind of try to tap into that potential to address sustainability challenges.

真菌、霉菌和蘑菇特别有意思的一点是，它们是大自然的回收者。

One of the really interesting things about fungi and the molds and mushrooms is that they are nature's recyclers.

它们本质上就是大自然的生物回收系统。

They're basically nature's biological recycling machines.

它们生长在我们眼中的废弃物上，比如木材、落叶。

They grow on what we consider waste, wood, leaves.

它们会把这些东西分解、吃掉，然后消化掉。

They basically will just chop that up and eat it and digest it.

所以我们的想法，可以说是实验室的核心，就是如何利用真菌这种天然能力，把食物废料或农业废弃物转化成有用的东西。

So our idea here, I think at the core of the lab is how can we tap into that natural ability to eat food waste or agricultural waste, even and then use the fungi to then convert that into something useful.

食物是我们实验室的重点，但我们也通过生物工程和基因技术，探索材料、化学品或其他领域的应用。

Food is a big focus of our lab, but also maybe materials or chemicals or other things through the power of bioengineering and genetics.

我觉得特别有意思的是，这让我们有机会与自然合作，而不是与之对抗。

You know, I think really it's interesting that I think it gives us an opportunity to work with biology rather than against it.

我们并不是想把这种细菌改得过于复杂，让它去分解废弃物——它本来就会这么做。

We're not trying to over engineer this bacterium to grow on waste and, you know, it already does this.

我们只需要稍微调整一下，让它更偏向于我们感兴趣的产物。

We just have to kind of fine tune it towards the outputs we're excited about.

我觉得这算得上是一个总体框架，指导着我们在实验室里的所有工作。

So I would say that's sort of a general framework that involves and informs what we're trying to do in the lab.

说到食物这一块，我猜你肯定遇到过这种情况。

When we think about the food aspect, I'm sure you've dealt with this.

你怎么说服大家接受呢？

How do you convince your people?

我现在是以厨师的身份在问你。

Now I'm talking to you as a chef.

你怎么让人去吃那些长在废弃物上的东西？

How do you convince people to eat stuff that grew on waste?

就算他们知道蘑菇和真菌本来就是自然存在的，也可能选择性地忽略这一点。

Even though they might know it for normal fungi and mushrooms, might conveniently be able to forget it.

但具体该怎么跟人聊这个呢？

But like, how do you have that conversation?

这确实是个非常好的问题。

That's a really great point.

我觉得这引出了一个更广泛的问题：当我们思考食物、创造新食物，以及利用食物废弃物进行循环转化时，这不仅仅是技术问题，对吧？

And I think it kind of brings up a broader point, which is, as we think about food and creating new foods and tapping into this amazing ability for food food waste upcycling conversion, it's not just technology, right?

食物真正触及的是我们的心理、情感、历史和传统。

Like food really touches on our psychology, emotions, our history, our tradition.

所以，我们设立厨房的初衷，就是为了能展开这些对话。

So that is sort of the inspiration about having a kitchen so that we can have those conversations.

我们特别与厨师们紧密合作，一起思考：我们需要创造什么样的语言来描述这一切？

And we particularly work very closely with chefs to try to think about what is the language we have to create around this?

我们该如何提问，如何引导人们理解？

How do we sort of ask and inform people?

我们该怎么感知公众的态度和反应？

How do we take the temperature of what's going on?

我觉得，有时候作为科学家，我们太专注自己的领域了，做出一项很酷的技术。

So I think sometimes, as scientists, we put our blinders on and we create something really cool technology.

可一旦推向市场，就会出现各种意想不到的反应和后果。

And then when it comes out in the world, there's all these sort of unanticipated reactions and consequences.

转基因作物就是一个典型的例子。

GMO or genetic modification of plants is one example of that.

没错。

Right.

我觉得，如果能在科研过程中让更多相关方参与进来，我们或许能更早发现这些问题。

I think by involving kind of other stakeholders in the scientific process, we hope to be able to get to those questions.

我今天还说不上有明确的答案，但我相信，只要东西好吃，让人忍不住想多吃一口，

And I wouldn't say that I have an obvious answers today, but I think that if it's delicious and people can sort of say, wow, I wanna have more.

激发人们的渴望，这才是一个好的起点。

Creating desire is a really good starting point.

人们不会因为某样东西‘环保’就去买，比如它节约了多少土地、多可持续之类的。

You know, people are not gonna buy it because it's green, you know, okay sustainable and it saves this many, you know, acres of land or whatever.

我觉得我们必须触及某种深层的情感共鸣。

I I think we have to connect to something deep and emotional.

而这一点，厨师们真的能帮上大忙。

And again, that's where chefs can really help us.

这里是《万物未来》，我是罗斯·阿尔特曼。

This is the Future of Everything with Russ Altman.

接下来，我们继续与瓦尤·希尔-梅尼对话。

We'll have more with Vayu Hill-Maini next.

欢迎回到《万物未来》。

Welcome back to The Future of Everything.

我是罗斯·阿尔特曼，今天对话的是来自斯坦福大学的瓦尤·希尔-梅尼。

I'm Russ Altman, and I'm speaking with Vayu Hill-Maini from Stanford University.

在上一部分，我们聊了真菌和蘑菇，它们的生物学特性、人类食用和利用它们的历史，以及它们如何被温和地改造来创造新食品。

In the first segment, we did a romp through molds and mushrooms, what they are biologically, what the history of eating them and using them for useful purposes is, and a little bit about how they're starting to be engineered gently to create new foods.

在这一部分，我想更深入一点，看看瓦尤是怎么改造这些蘑菇和真菌，让它们更好吃、更适合作为食物的。

In this segment, I wanna push that a little harder and find what kind of things is Vayu doing to these mushrooms and molds to make them more delicious and more edible.

别忘了，本段结束时，我会有个‘未来一刻’，问Vayu几个快速的问题。

Don't forget, at the end of this segment, I'll have the future in a minute where I'll ask Vayu some quick questions.

他会给我一些简短的回答。

He'll give me some quick answers.

大概一分钟左右。

It'll be about a minute.

你们在实验室里能做出些什么东西？

What kind of things can you build in the lab?

你刚在上一段快结束时用了‘美味’这个词。

You used the word delicious right before the end of the first segment.

你想象中，从你们实验室里能诞生出哪些美味的食物？

What kind of delicious things are you imagining coming out of your lab?

这是个很好的问题。

Well, that's a great question.

我觉得遗传学和生物工程在这里能发挥关键作用。

And I think that's where genetics and bioengineering can really come in and play a role.

你知道吗，几个世纪以来，这些真菌已经被人类驯化了。

You know, I talked about how over centuries, these fungi were domesticated.

我们改造了它们的基因，专门培育出对我们有用的东西，比如奶酪、味噌、酱油，你想得到的都有。

We changed our DNA and we sort of specialized them for the uses that we value, cheese, miso, soy sauce, you name it.

这个过程花了上千年的时间。

That took thousands of years.

但当我们思考未来食物和食品体系的时候，我们等不了上千年了。

And I think as we think about the future of food and the food system, we don't have thousands of years.

这是一个迫在眉睫的挑战。

It's an urgent challenge.

食品生产占了全球温室气体排放的百分之三十。

It's 30% of all global emissions.

所以我们必须立刻行动。

So we need to act now.

借助CRISPR-Cas9这样的技术，我们现在就能在实验室里对真菌进行类似的改造或驯化。

And with a technology like CRISPR Cas9, we can make similar modifications or domesticate the fungi in the laboratory now.

所以我们现在就在考虑这些问题。

So that's kind of what we're thinking about.

比如，我们怎么提升风味？

One example is how do we improve flavor?

举个简单的例子，有时候真菌会产生一些异味，可能太酸，或者有某些气味，虽然不算难闻，但让人不太舒服。

A very simple case there could be sometimes the fungi could make some off flavors, maybe they're a little sour or maybe they have some aromas that people find okay, but off putting.

只要敲除一个基因，就能重新开始，彻底清除这些问题。

By simply knocking out a single gene, you could actually create a clean slate.

这就是其中一个例子。

That's an example.

另外，我们也可以考虑增强营养，比如提高蛋白质含量。

Otherwise, could also imagine enhancing nutrition, trying to get more protein content.

如果蛋白质是限制因素，那该怎么提升，让它更高呢？

So if the protein content is a limiting factor, how could you increase it to make it higher?

或者添加其他维生素和营养素，比如提升我们所用某些真菌中的维生素A含量，让它们变成真正的超级食品。

Or adding other vitamins and nutrients, for example, improving the content of vitamin A in some of the fungi that we work with to make them really, really boosted super foods.

我觉得，当人们听到基因改造时，可能会想到从青蛙身上取个基因放进真菌里，搞出个怪东西。但其实我们更多是在看基因组里本来就有的东西，做些调整和修改。

So I think that, you know, when people hear genetic modification, I might think about, oh, I'm gonna take a gene from a frog and putting into a fungus and it's this I alien think sometimes this is more about looking at what's already within the genome, in the DNA and tinkering and sort of modifying it.

这其实和我们几千年来一直在做的事是一样的，只是现在有了更先进的工具。

The way that we have for thousands of years, but now with contemporary tools.

对。

Yeah.

你之前说过，我特别有感触，你的做法不是大刀阔斧地全改，而是做些小调整、小优化。

You said this before and it struck me that your your approach is a little bit more, not like come in and change everything, but like little tweaks, adjustments.

是的。

Yeah.

比如某种小分子物质对口感有点不利，那就干脆把它减一点，或者干脆去掉，就这么简单。

Like maybe one of these small chemicals is slightly unfavorable for the taste And so let's just either reduce it or eliminate it or whatever.

这种做法特别吸引人，因为最后你讲起这个技术时，听起来是一种温和、细腻的工程方式。

And so that's a very attractive approach because then at the end of the day, when you give the story of what you did to this, it's a nuanced kind of gentle engineering.

没错。

Exactly.

我觉得，这么说吧——虽然我用了‘推销’这个词，但这种做法更容易让那些在考虑要不要试试的人接受。

Which my sense is that would sell and forgive my use of the word sell, that would sell better to the customers who are deciding, do I wanna give this a try?

没错，接着你就可以想想，用它能做出些什么东西来？

And exactly, and then you can think about what can we make with it?

比如我们正在开发营养更丰富、长得更快、成本更低的蘑菇。

You know, we're thinking about the nutritionally enhanced mushrooms that are better for you grow faster and are more economical.

我们还把酿酒行业产生的废料里的霉菌进行发酵，做成美味的新奶酪、汉堡或者萨拉米香肠。

We're also taking some of the molds and fermenting waste from the brewing industry into a delicious new cheese or a burger or a salami.

从烹饪的角度来看，我们也在探索：这些新原料有哪些潜在用途？它们的风味适合搭配什么？

So we are discovering also, I think from the culinary side, what are the new uses and where does the flavor profile make sense?

然后我们再回到实验室，想办法优化和调整它。

And how do we then go back into the lab to try to enhance and tinker with it?

我们管这叫DBTL循环：设计、构建、品尝、学习。

We call it the DBTL cycle, design, build, taste, learn.

我

I

太棒了。

love it.

在厨房和实验室之间来回穿梭。

Going back and forth between the kitchen and the lab.

虽然你是一位相当出色的厨师，但我知道你也会邀请其他厨师来你的实验室，就像你刚才说的，一起思考哪些地方需要改进，哪些可能性我们还没发现。

So even though you're a somewhat accomplished chef, I know that you also host chefs at your lab part of what you just described, kind of thinking about like what needs to be fixed, what needs to, what is possible that we don't have.

那你具体是怎么邀请厨师来的呢？

So tell me about how you bring in chefs.

这真的太棒了。

I mean, it's just been incredible.

今年，我们有幸邀请了一位驻场厨师。

You know, this year we've had the pleasure of hosting a chef in residence.

很多人听说过驻场艺术家。

You know, people, a lot of people know about artists in residence.

艺术家会全身心投入到一个环境中。

You have an artist immersing themselves in an environment.

斯坦福在丹宁访问艺术家项目上有着悠久的传统。

Stanford has a long history of this to the Denning Visiting Artists Program.

我们就想，能不能也请一位厨师来呢？

And we thought, could we have a chef?

结果特别棒，负责艺术事务的副校长办公室和多尔斯可持续发展学院都非常支持，还提供了资金。

And it was amazing because the office of the vice president of the arts and the Doors School of Sustainability were really excited and provided funding.

去年秋天和今年春天，我们请了一位来自西班牙米加里茨餐厅的厨师，那家店有两颗米其林星，待了整整六周。

And we've had a chef from a 2,000,000 star restaurant in Spain called Mugaritz in the fall for three weeks and in the spring for three weeks

他在大学里工作，就在校园里。

working At the university, at the university.

他在我们的实验室里，跟博士生和博士后交流，了解他们的研究，同时也向校园里的人分享他对风味和创意的理解。

In our laboratory, talking to the PhD students, postdocs, learning about what's going on, but also teaching our campus about their approach to flavor and creativity.

我们还和斯坦福农场合办了工作坊，举办了公开讲座和快闪活动，这简直成了一个令人惊叹的创意引擎，让我们每个人都意识到，我们的基础研究如何能对世界产生影响，而这些外部视角又如何反过来启发我们的工作。

And we've had workshops with the Stanford Farm, we've had public lectures, we've had pop up events, and it's been this amazing creative engine, I think, for all of us to appreciate how our fundamental work can have impact in the world and how those perspective can also inform what we do in the first place.

我的意思是，这一切都太棒了。

I mean, it's been amazing.

我从来没经历过这样的事

I've never experienced anything like

确实如此。

it.

那我想问问你这方面的事。

So let me ask you about that.

我猜你一定仔细考虑过，什么样的厨师、什么样的视角，才能真正充分利用这个项目。

I'm sure that you think pretty hard about the kind of chef and the kind of perspective that they would need to have to really take advantage of this program.

那你们心目中理想的驻校厨师应该具备什么样的特质？是半年、一年，还是类似的时间长度？

So what is the profile of like the chef that you say, I need that chef to come here for, is it like six months or a year or something like that?

没错，就是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

大概几个月，分两个阶段进行。

It's about, you know, a few months, split So over two

理想的厨师合作者应该是什么样的？

what is the profile of the ideal kind of chef collaborator in residence?

我觉得这个人得有好奇心，真的很好奇。

I mean, I think it's somebody who's curious, curiosity.

在我们实验室，我和同事们都是被好奇心驱动的。

Know, we're all driven by curiosity in my lab and among my colleagues.

我觉得，理想的厨师得是那种愿意说：我想学点新东西。

And I think having a chef who says, you know what, like I wanna learn.

虽然生物工程可能挺陌生，但得有开放的心态，愿意探索创意的边界，不断思考料理和知识的极限。

This might be unfamiliar, bioengineering but sort of this open mind to creativity and always being kind of thinking about the boundary of culinary creativity, boundary of knowledge.

西班牙的Mugaritz餐厅，过去二十多年一直引领着餐饮界的这种方向。

And Mugaritz, this restaurant in Spain has been leading that in the world of food for the last twenty plus years.

所以，你必须得有好奇心。

So, I think you have to be curious.

我觉得，正是这份好奇心，才能让整个项目最有成效、最有启发性。

I think that's what's gonna make it the most productive and most inspiring.

就像我说的，看到斯坦福的博士生、所有研究人员，还有本科生都在了解、参与这件事，这种声音在校园里其实很少见。

And as I said, it's been, I mean, just to see the PhD students and everybody and the undergrads at Stanford learning about this and engaging with It's a rare voice on campus.

听起来太棒了。

It sounds fantastic.

那我们就用这个例子，回到你之前说的一件事——你提到可能会有一种分子，带来的味道没那么理想。

So actually let's use that scenario to go back to something you said earlier, which you said maybe there would be a molecule that gives us slightly less desirable.

所以你能说说吗？如果可以的话，你们是怎么发现这些分子的？毕竟它们又不会贴着标签。

So tell me, maybe even if you can, how you discover those molecules, because like they don't come labeled.

蘑菇又不会说：对了，我这儿有个分子，你肯定不喜欢。

Like the mushroom doesn't say, by the way, I have this molecule and you're not gonna like it.

但我猜，你们的驻店厨师一定有着极其敏锐的味觉。

But I'm thinking that you, your chef in residence must have exquisite taste.

我是说字面意义上的味觉。

And I mean that literally.

这次我说的‘味觉’，就是真的尝味道。

This is a case where I'm talking about literal taste.

能给我讲个故事吗？你们是怎么发现某个其实不太喜欢的分子的？

Tell me a story about how you identify some molecule that might not be your favorite.

那位驻场厨师是不是带来了某种独特的能力？

Does that chef in resident bring a special capability there?

我猜他们确实有，但我也不太确定。

I imagine that they might, I but I don't know the

我们注意到一件事，这正好说明厨房里的实践是怎么影响科学研究的，对吧？

mean, one of the things we noticed, and this is sort of how working in the kitchen informs the science, right?

我觉得大概有两种情况。

So I think there's two cases.

一种是我们发现，当某种真菌长在某些谷物上时，它们会变得特别甜。

One of them is that we noticed when we grew a particular fungus on some grains, they became really sweet.

这可不是单靠DNA序列就能预测出来的。

And this is not something we kind of predicted from DNA sequence alone.

我们是实际尝出来的。

We just experienced it.

这促使我们回到实验室，去发现那些能分解植物多聚体、生成糖分的酶。

And that led us to go back into the lab to actually discover certain enzymes that help break down plant polymers and create sugars.