The future of storytelling for health

这里是斯坦福工程学院的《万物未来》，我是主持人奥尔特曼。

This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, I'm your host, Altman.

自从八年前我们开播以来，这个节目已经成了记录我的斯坦福同事杰出且富有影响力工作的宝库。

Since we started this show eight years ago, it's become an archive of amazing and impactful work by my Stanford colleagues.

研究不只是在实验室里发生的，正如你们在节目中将听到的，斯坦福的研究能影响健康、科技、法律、商业，以及许多与日常生活息息相关的领域。

Research is not something that just happens in the lab, and as you'll hear on this show, the research at Stanford can impact areas like health, technology, law, and business, and many other topics that can affect everyday life.

我们希望你们能收听节目，了解更多研究如何有机会改善你们的生活，以及你们家人和社区中所关心的人们的生活。

We hope you'll tune in to learn more about how research has the potential to help your life and to help the lives of people you care about in your family and your community.

我觉得我一直以来都被故事吸引。

I think I've always been drawn to stories.

我觉得故事是最能改变人们想法的方式。

I feel like they are the most powerful way to change people's minds.

过去我曾经误解过一些事，但后来遇见了某个人，听了他们的经历，彻底改变了我对那个话题的看法。

I have misunderstood things in the past and then met somebody who told me their story and fundamentally shifted the way that I see that topic area.

所以我一直在想，如果我们能把这种力量包装起来就好了——那些亲身经历过生活的人的故事，比如养育孩子，或者正面对着别人难以理解的困境的人。

So I always thought, you know, what if we can package this, the power of lived experiences of human beings who've, you know, raised a child, you know, who may be struggling with something that people don't understand.

让我们充分利用这些故事的美感与真实感，打开心扉，再借此传递基于证据的健康建议。

And let's capitalize on the beauty of and the authenticity of that story and use it to open people's minds and then use that entryway to deliver evidence based health recommendations.

这是斯坦福工程学院的《万物未来》播客。

This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything podcast.

我是拉塞尔·阿尔特曼。

I'm Russ Altman.

我们接下来会推出几期特别精彩的节目，千万别错过。

You know, we have some amazing episodes coming up and you don't wanna miss any of them.

请现在就点击关注你正在使用的平台，确保不会漏掉任何一期。

So please press follow on whatever you're listening to this on now to make sure you don't miss any episodes.

今天，玛雅·亚当将告诉我们，她如何通过精美、简短的动画视频，讲述全球都能理解的故事，有时甚至不用一个字，就能传播基于证据的健康信息。

Today, Maya Adam will tell us that she can spread evidence based health information with beautiful, short, animated videos that tell a story that's globally accessible, sometimes without even words.

这就是健康领域讲故事的未来。

It's the future of storytelling for health.

今天，我们继续推出‘一分钟展望未来’系列。

Today, we are continuing our feature, The Future in a Minute.

和玛雅聊完之后，我会问她五个问题，她会给出五个答案，整个过程大概一分钟。

At the end of my conversation with Maya, I will ask her five questions, she'll give me five answers, and it'll take about a minute.

在开始之前，请记得关注我们，别错过接下来的精彩节目。

Before we get started, please remember to follow so you don't miss any of the upcoming amazing episodes.

说到患者教育，说实话，我们常常想到的是一些枯燥乏味的东西。

So when we think about patient education, unfortunately, we sometimes think about things that are pretty dreary.

比如你去看医生，医生跟你讲药或者病情，然后塞给你一份小册子。

Like you go to the doctor, they tell you about your medication or your disease, and they give you a pamphlet.

你也许会看一眼，但通常没什么吸引力，说不定真能改变你的健康习惯，也可能根本没用。

And maybe you read it, it's usually not very inspiring, and maybe it changes your health behavior, but perhaps not.

那要是换成看一段短小精悍的高质量动画视频呢？有时候连字都没有，却用有趣的方式，把关于你病情、治疗或健康习惯的关键信息讲得清清楚楚。

Well, what happens if instead you could watch a short high quality animated video, sometimes without even any words that in an entertaining way makes the exact point about your disease or about your treatment or your health practices that you need to learn.

这是一个让人印象深刻的叙事。

It's a memorable story.

你看完之后会记住，这能提升你的理解，也真正带来有利于健康的行动改变。

You take it away and that results in increased understanding and in changes in behavior that are beneficial for your health.

这正是我今天这位嘉宾正在做的事。

That's exactly what my guest today does.

医生。

Doctor.

亚当是儿科教授，也是传染病专家，同时她还是一位讲故事的人、艺术家和媒体专家。

Adam is a professor of pediatrics and an infectious disease, and she's also a storyteller, artist, and media expert.

她会告诉我们，她会与那些有重要健康信息的医疗专业人士合作，比如别在食物里加糖，或者一定要打这些疫苗，然后共同制作出极具吸引力的视频，用来传播并改善患者的健康行为。

She will tell us that she collaboratively works with health professionals who have an important message about some evidence based health practice, like no sugar added to your food, or make sure you get these vaccines, and they can create these very attractive videos that can then be disseminated to try to change the health behaviors of patients for the better.

首先，玛雅，你是怎么想到把讲故事和媒体技能结合起来，专注于儿科，尤其是儿童传染病领域的呢？

To start out, Maya, how did you decide to combine your skills in storytelling and media with a message and a focus on pediatrics and in particular pediatric infectious disease in many cases?

嗯，拉uss，我的背景有点特别。

Well, Russ, I come from a bit of an unusual background.

我在学医之前，当了十年的职业芭蕾舞演员。

I spent ten years on a stage as a professional ballet dancer before I studied medicine.

在那段职业生涯里，我意识到，哪怕表演技术再精湛，如果不能打动观众、讲好故事、吸引注意力，最终都会被人遗忘。

And I realized in that career that even the most technically brilliant performers, if they were not able to touch the audience, to tell a story, to engage the audience, they became forgettable.

后来我进入健康教育和健康传播领域时，发现同样的道理也适用。

And I realized when I moved into health education and health communication that the same thing applied to our challenges.

如果我们希望人们听进去那些对我们有益的健康建议，就必须找到吸引他们的方法。

If we wanted people to listen to the health recommendations that we knew to be beneficial for them, we had to find ways of engaging them.

所以你是先有健康方面的想法，再把媒体和讲故事的技能加进去的吗？

So did you enter with health on your mind and then bring in the skills of media and storytelling?

还是你先掌握了讲故事的本事，然后才觉得这是个不错的应用方向？

Or did you get the storytelling credentials, so to speak, and then say, this is a good application area?

你是怎么做出这个决定的？

How did you do that calculation?

我觉得我一直以来都被故事吸引。

I think I've always been drawn to stories.

我觉得故事是改变人们想法最有力的方式。

I feel like they are the most powerful way to change people's minds.

我过去也曾误解过一些事，但后来遇到一个人，听了他的经历，彻底改变了我对那个话题的看法。

I have misunderstood things in the past and then met somebody who told me their story and fundamentally shifted the way that I see that topic area.

所以我一直想，如果我们能把这种真实的生活经验包装起来，比如那些养育过有特殊困难孩子的父母的经历，而这些困难是很多人根本无法理解的。

So I always thought, what if we can package this, the power of lived experiences of human beings who've raised a child who may be struggling with something that people don't understand.

我们可以利用这些故事的真挚与动人之处，打开人们的心扉，再借此机会传递基于证据的健康建议。

And let's capitalize on the beauty and the authenticity of that story and use it to open people's minds and then use that entry way to deliver evidence based health recommendations.

你刚才说的这个模式太有吸引力了，因为我们的很多医学同行，虽然心地善良、才华横溢，却总想着只讲事实、只讲逻辑。

It's such an attract, what you just said is such an attractive model, because so many of our medical colleagues, well meaning and brilliant, they wanna be about the facts and they wanna be about logic.

他们往往没意识到，人们其实更愿意听故事，大脑天生就更容易记住故事，而不是零散的数据。

And they don't always realize that stories are what people, like the human mind is really wired to hear these stories and to remember them much more than kind of disconnected facts.

尤其是当这件事你平时根本不会去想，或者需要一些你根本不熟悉的术语时。

And especially when it's something that you don't think about all the time, or that requires a vocabulary that you might not have.

所以我想接着问的是，你该怎么判断哪些话题最适合用媒体和故事来传达？第一个问题是，你怎么选题？

And so that's what I wanted to get to next is how do you, well, guess the first question is how do you decide which topics are a good match to the media and the skills and the stories that you're able to tell?

经常有人主动来找我，拉uss。

Often people come to me, Russ.

斯坦福的同事们来自各个领域，都很出色，他们常常来找我，问：你觉得这个主题能做成一个可大规模推广的健康传播内容吗？

So our amazing colleagues at Stanford from every discipline, many of them will approach me and say, Do you think we could create a very scalable health message around this topic?

大多数时候，即使我一开始没看出来，我也会说，咱们试试看。

And most of the time, even if I don't see it at first, most of the time I say, let's try.

然后我们一起想办法，用画面来呈现，而不是靠说话来解释。

And then we work together to come up with a narrative that can be shown rather than told.

因为我们做的大部分内容都尽量不靠台词，这样就能跨越语言和识字的障碍。

Because most of the media we create, we try and actually keep it wordless so that it can cross language barriers and literacy barriers.

接下来，我们会和一群极具才华的创意伙伴合作，比如在动画片里设计角色。

We then work with amazingly talented creative partners who come up with characters if it's an animated film, for example.

而动画的美妙之处就在于，我们可以创造出文化上容易被接受的角色，不必非得符合某个具体人群的外貌或背景特征。

And those characters, because of the beauty of animation is that we can create culturally accessible characters that don't necessarily look like a person in a certain context with certain demographic attributes.

这样一来，我们就能更自由地思考，该讲什么样的故事、展示什么样的画面，才能真正吸引人们关注这个话题。

And so that allows us then to really start to imagine what we could tell and show in order to bring people into this topic.

当然，我们也会请相关领域的专家把关，确保视频里传达的核心信息都准确到位。

And then, of course, we make sure with the faculty specialists in those areas that we've hit on the main points that need to be shown in that video.

最终，它就成了一个让人愿意走进来的入口。

And it becomes an entryway.

这种方式轻巧又容易大规模推广，尤其是现在有这么多技术手段，还有社交媒体的各种渠道——不管好坏吧。

It becomes a very light touch way to scale broadly, especially given the technology we have these days and the pathways through social media, for better or for worse.

我们可以利用这些渠道，把信息送到人们正在使用的地方，而不是等着他们主动来找我们。

We can use those pathways to disseminate messages to people where they are, where they're already consuming information, rather than trying to get them to come to us.

是的，我确实想聊聊那些，但我先问几个问题，因为我对这个特别好奇。

Yeah, and I do wanna get to those, but I just have a few questions because I'm so curious about this.

你说过，几乎每次都能试着做一做。

So you said that you almost always can give it a try.

要是不成功，通常是什么原因呢？我猜可能是太专业了，信息太密集，让人受不了，但你也许会说，你知道吗？

When things don't work, what are some of the reasons, like my instinct is that maybe something is too technical and it's like, this is not, this is just too much details, but then you might also tell me, but you know what?

我们可以先把那些细节放一边，先搞清楚核心信息是什么。

We can put those details aside and figure out what the core message is.

我不是想泼冷水，但要是没效果，一般是什么地方出了问题？

So I don't mean to be negative at all, but when it doesn't work, what are the kinds of things that make it not work?

还是说这种情况其实很少见，根本没什么好说的？

Or is that really so rare that there's nothing to say about that?

说实话，到目前为止，我们还没遇到过完全无能为力的情况。

You know, we have not had a case yet where we absolutely could do nothing.

有时候，某些情况下，我们得加点对白来让意思更清楚。

Sometimes, in some cases, we've had to add script dialogue order to make it clear.

我给你举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

我们最近和德国癌症研究中心合作，做了一部很短的动画片，推广结肠镜检查和结直肠癌筛查。

We recently worked with the German Cancer Research Center to create a very short film, animated film, to promote the uptake of colonoscopies and colorectal cancer screening.

我们发现，如果没有脚本文字，这件事真的很难做成。

That's difficult to do, we found, without any scripted text.

但我们想了个特别有创意的办法——主角其实是一个息肉。

But we managed to do something very innovative where the main character is in fact a polyp.

尤其是和德国人一起走完这段旅程，真的特别棒。

And so it's been wonderful to walk that journey, especially with the Germans.

我们既有德语版，也有英语版。

And we have these versions in German and in English.

这会让事情变得稍微复杂一点，所以我们通常更倾向于不用台词。

It makes it a little more complicated, which is one of the reasons why we usually lean towards wordless.

比如，我们曾为医学院传播团队制作了一套心理健康系列短片，主要传递一些基础的心理健康信息，鼓励大家主动寻求帮助。

But for example, we created a mental health series for the School of Medicine Communications team, wanted to produce a series focused on basic mental health messages, promoting help seeking and those sorts of things.

我们一位出色的教授找到我们，说：你们漏掉了一个关键部分——那就是对成瘾者的污名化。

And one of our wonderful faculty members came to us and said, You're missing one piece of the puzzle, and that is addiction stigma, stigma towards people with addiction.

如果这套片子不包含这一点，那就缺了重要内容。

If you don't have that in the series, it's missing something.

这话让我愣了一下，心想：这要怎么用动画短片来表现呢？

And that took me a moment because I thought, how are we gonna do that as an animated short?

我觉得这话题太沉重了，一时根本想不出怎么呈现。

It seemed so serious for me that I couldn't immediately picture it.

当然，有时候你静下心来想，就像种下一颗种子，灵感会慢慢发芽，或者你偶然听到一句话就豁然开朗。

And of course, sometimes when you sit with something, it's like a seed has been planted and an idea will sprout or you'll hear something.

有人打了个比方，说像鱼一样，容易被某些东西钩住。

Someone said, made an analogy about fish and getting hooked on things.

我当时就想，主角就应该是条鱼。

And I thought, that's our main character.

必须得是一条鱼。

It's got to be a fish.

我们要用这种方式让内容更接地气，别让观众觉得太贴近自己而回避这些建议。

And we have to make it accessible in that way so that people don't turn away from this advice because it's too close to home.

这确实很有道理。

That really makes a lot of sense.

这让我想到下一个问题，你提到你们做的这些短视频很有普遍性。

And it leads me to my next question, which is about, you referred to the universality of many of these short videos that you make.

这种普遍性是自然而然形成的吗？

And does that happen naturally?

还是说你们得刻意去思考？

Or do you have to think really hard?

我想象得到，文化差异——比如背景设计，或者卡通人物的样子——可能会让内容变得非常具有地域性。

Like I could imagine that cultural standards, even what the background looks like or what the cartoon character, forgive my phrasing, looks like might make it very culturally specific.

那你能说说，你们是怎么让这些内容尽可能具有全球性和普适性的吗？

So tell me about how you get these to be as global and as universal as possible.

当然可以。

Absolutely.

随着经验积累，我们做得越来越好。其中一个很大的优势是，我们经常和来自其他国家、比如全球南方的创意团队成员合作。

I mean, we've gotten better and better as we go along, But one of the things that I think is a great asset is that we often work with creative team members who are based in other countries, in the global South, for example.

正因为如此，我们避免陷入视觉风格过于西方中心的陷阱，也特别留意减少那些社会经济背景或地域特征的痕迹。

And because of that, we don't fall into a little bit of a trap of becoming sort of western centric in our visual And we are very careful to make sure that we try and minimize those identifiers, socioeconomic identifiers, location specific identifiers.

我们会尽量避免加入只有在某些地区才懂的元素，比如……

We try not to have references in there that would not work in many different Yeah, parts of the

这真是太好了。

and it's wonderful.

我昨晚准备时看了几个，真的很吸引人。

And I did look at a few last night in preparing and they're very, one word is attractive.

它们简单又富有吸引力。

They're simple and they're attractive.

所以你知道，它能吸引你，抓住你的注意力，而且不会让人眼花缭乱或听觉过载。

So as you know, you're drawn to it, it captures your attention and there's not a cacophony of visual and oral stimulation.

就是很简单，觉得：嗯，这个我能专心看下去。

It's just mostly like, okay, this is something I can pay attention to.

所以在我们深入那些精彩的故事之前，我想问一下，你怎么判断一个东西是不是有效？

So I wanted to ask, before we get into some of the details and there's these great stories, how do you know if something is working?

对吧？

Right?

你把它放出去之后，最大的问题就是：首先，人们有没有准确理解你想传达的信息？

So you put it out there and then there's a big question about, well, first of all, are people getting the message accurately?

其次，它有没有真正带来健康状况的改善？

And then second of all, is it leading to improved health?

我猜这些都不太容易衡量。

And I'm guessing these are not the easiest things in the world to measure.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

现在正是一个特别令人兴奋的时刻，因为我们终于拥有了技术、科学能力，再加上这种创新的方法，能够结合起来开展严谨的研究，准确衡量这些干预措施的效果。

And that's where I find a really exciting time now because we are finally at a point in history when we have the technology, we have the scientific capability, and we have this innovative approach coming together to do rigorous science and measure the impact of these interventions.

比如，那个关于鱼类的视频，原本是为了减少对成瘾者的污名化，鼓励大家寻求帮助，我们在美国、英国和南非三个国家开展了一项大规模在线试验，参与人数超过一万三千人。

So for example, for the video with the fish that was intended to reduce stigma towards people with addiction and encourage help seeking, we did a large scale online trial in three countries, in The US, The UK and South Africa with more than 13,000 people.

由于现在我们能通过在线平台招募参与者，人们一直担心样本是否具有代表性。

And because of the fact that we now have these online recruitment platforms, the representativeness has always been a question.

这些平台上的用户是不是更懂科技、更联网？但其实，因为我们这些干预手段本身就是通过数字方式传递的，所以这些用户反而很贴近我们的目标人群。

Are people on these platforms more digitally savvy, more connected than, let's But say, the general because our interventions are digitally delivered, they actually are a good proxy for our target audiences.

因此，我们利用这些平台来招募大量参与者。

And so we use these platforms to recruit large numbers of people.

然后对参与者进行随机分组。

We randomize them.

尽可能使用经过验证的测量工具，来清晰区分哪些方法有效，哪些无效。

We use validated measures as much as we can to really parse out what's effective and what's not.

我们已经把这些研究成果发表在了业内备受认可的期刊上。

And we've been able to publish these findings in journals that are highly regarded.

所以我觉得现在这种做法越来越被接受了，以前在疫情前，用故事来传递健康信息可能还被认为不够学术。

So I think there's a growing acceptance, whereas maybe pre COVID, this might have been seen as like unaccademic to use stories to convey health information.

我觉得新冠让我们都停下来想一想：我们得赶紧找到办法，把信息快速传达到全世界，而且必须让人容易理解。

And I think COVID made us all stop and go, wait a minute, we need ways to get messages out to the world immediately and they have to be accessible.

这给了我们一个绝佳的机会，去大胆尝试，展示我们的能力，再结合严谨的科学研究，真正证明这些干预措施的效果。

And that gave us an opportunity to really jump in and show what we could do and then couple it with the rigorous science to actually document the impact of those interventions.

这会不会形成一个不断迭代的过程？

Does this ever lead to an iterative process?

比如你发布之后做了测试，发现效果不错，但还没完全击中关键点A或点B。

So let's say you put it out, you do your testing, and you say, oh, it's doing well, but it's not hitting on point A or point B.

那你会不会回去重新修改？

Do you then go back and sometimes revise?

会的。

We do.

这些年我们一直做这行，发现人们的注意力越来越短了。

We've often found over the years that we've been doing this, that attention spans are getting shorter and shorter.

所以我们做的内容越来越短，也越来越精炼。

So our content has become increasingly shortened and more condensed.

有时候我们觉得某个视频创意特别棒，但那些本来要帮忙传播的人却说：这个不行。

We have also sometimes created videos where we thought it was a brilliant idea and some people who were hopefully going to disseminate it said, can't do that.

这其实特别好，因为它让我们明白，到底能把边界推到多远。

And that's excellent because it's a learning experience for us of how far can we push the boundaries.

我给你举个具体的例子。

I'll give you a little example of that.

我们最近做了一个很短的干预视频，用来提高大家对智能手机过度使用的警惕。

We created recently a very short intervention to raise awareness about smartphone overuse.

就是年轻人中的屏幕成瘾问题，这个视频是我们和年轻人一起做的。

So screen addiction in young And we created it with young adults.

他们太有意思了，Russ。

And they were hilarious, Russ.

他们脑子里全是点子。

They had ideas.

我们当时在头脑风暴。

We were brainstorming.

大家纷纷站起来喊叫，还在白板上画来画去。

People were jumping up and shouting and drawing stuff on whiteboards.

于是我们想到了一个点子，用视觉方式把智能手机成瘾和吸烟成瘾联系起来。

And we came up with this concept of visually showing smartphone addiction as being in some ways similar to cigarette addiction.

影片开头设了一个钩子：一位妈妈在地铁上带着个幼儿，孩子哭闹不止，她怎么也哄不好。

And the film started off with a hook where there is a mother on a subway and she has a toddler and the toddler is screaming and she can't quiet the toddler down.

于是她从包里掏出一包香烟。

And so out of her purse, she pulls a package of cigarettes.

这是动画效果，明白吧？

This is animated, okay?

你先别急，听我说完。

So bear with me.

她把一支烟塞进婴儿嘴里，然后点着了。

Puts a cigarette in the baby's mouth and lights it.

周围的人都微笑着，点头表示赞同。

And then everybody around her sort of smiles and nods their head approvingly.

接着，画面转到那个哭闹的孩子，妈妈把手机递过去，孩子立刻安静下来，所有人都松了口气。

And then after that, there's the analogy of the crying toddler and handing the cell phone and the child is quiet and everyone's happy.

于是，顾问们觉得这个开场特别抓人，能吸引大家把视频看完。

And so the advisors thought this would be a wonderful hook to get people to watch the video.

大家确实很喜欢这个视频，但很多传播渠道都给堵死了，原因显而易见，对。

And people loved the video, but many, dissemination pathways were closed for obvious reasons Yeah.

因为我们不想被人说是在鼓励这种行为。

Because we did not want to be accused of, recommending that sort thing.

你这下可真是说到了点子上。

Well, I mean, there you've done it.

我知道迟早会这样，但你刚讲的这个故事太棒了——你之前也讲过几个，反正谁听了都不会忘。

I mean, I knew this would happen, but you just told us a great story and I, you know, and you've told us a couple already and that no one is gonna forget that.

这简直太精彩了。

That is fabulous.

这里是《万物未来》。

This is The Future of Everything.

我是拉塞尔·阿尔特曼，刚才在和玛雅·亚当对话。

I'm Russ Altman and I've been speaking with Maya Adam.

到目前为止，我们聊的是玛雅和她的团队制作的那些短篇动画故事，目的是用通俗易懂、亲切有效的小视频，帮助大家理解健康信息、健康行为，甚至疾病和治疗相关的内容。

We've been up to now talking about the short animated stories that Maya and her colleagues make in order to have accessible, approachable and effective short clips that help people understand health, health information gathering, health practices, and even about their disease or their treatment.

我想聊聊人工智能。

I wanna go to AI.

这玩意儿现在挺火的，我猜它肯定也影响了你的工作，尽管你起步的时候它还没这么热门。

It's a thing, and I'm sure it's affecting your world, even though you got started before it was a thing.

所以我想知道，人工智能在你讲故事的方式上，带来了哪些正面和负面的影响？

And so I'm wondering what has been the impacts in terms of both positive and negative on the way you think about your storytelling?

我知道你们早期的作品都是人工创作、手工动画的。

I know that most of your early work was human derived and human animated.

我不确定现在有没有改变。

I don't know if that's changed.

玛雅，你和人工智能是什么关系？

What's your relationship with AI, Maya?

我对人工智能持谨慎乐观的态度。

So I'm cautiously optimistic about AI.

我觉得这里面有巨大的潜力。

I think there's huge potential there.

每当出现这样的技术突破，总有很多人会用它来做有益的事。

Whenever we have an innovation like this in technology, I think there are a lot of people that that are gonna harness it and use it for good.

我也希望成为其中一员。

And I hope to be one of those people.

我们现在用人工智能来初步构思传播方案之类的事情。

We are using AI for preliminary help with distribution ideas and those sorts of things.

但目前我还不打算把创作和人文部分交给人工智能。

The one thing that I am not yet ready to hand over to AI is the creative component and the human component of what we do.

因为我觉得我们这些干预措施和故事的艺术性，必须由人类来创作和呈现。

Because I think that the artistic part of our interventions and the stories, I believe that those need to be created and presented by humans.

不好意思打断一下，前面那段我们还没来得及聊到这个。

So if I could ask, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we didn't actually get to this in the first segment.

你们做的所有动画，都是由真人动画师和艺术家完成的吗？

So all of the animations that you create, those are human animators who are creating it, artists?

没错。

Absolutely.

是的。

Okay.

其实，拉uss，你问得正好，我们马上要推出一个非常有意思的试验——完全由人类制作的动画短片，从动画、配乐，到片中一段舞蹈，全都是人工创作的。

And in fact, Russ, it's interesting that you ask that because we're just about to launch a really exciting trial where we are testing a 100% human created animated short film where the animation, the soundtrack, even it's an animated film that features a dance going on.

连舞蹈动作也是由人类编排和建模的。

Even the dance was choreographed and modeled by humans.

我们正拿这个和另一个干预方案做对比，后者在技术层面完全一样，但所有内容都是由AI生成的。

And we're testing that against an intervention that is the same in terms of the technical components, but it is entirely generated by AI.

我们会观察两者在心理层面的即时影响，比如道德提升感——当你看到有人展现出善意与勇气时，那种让你也想变得更好的感觉。

And we're going to see what the outcome is on psychological proximal indicators of individual and in some ways societal wellness, things like moral elevation, the feeling that you get when you see somebody behaving in a way that is compassionate and courageous, and it makes you want to be a little bit better yourself.

这将是我们的主要衡量指标。

That's going to be our primary outcome.

我们还会关注同理心和社会联结感这些方面。

We're also looking at things like empathy and social connectedness.

我们想看看这两种艺术形式会对人们产生怎样的影响。

And we're going to see how these two versions of art affect people?

我觉得这个问题特别有意思，因为对我来说，AI最大的价值在于它能减轻人类的负担，让人类专注于只有人才能做的事。

And I think that's a fascinating question because the potential for me of AI is when it can reduce the burden on humans so that humans can do things only humans can do.

这在医疗领域特别体现得明显，现在有了后台自动记录，医生可以专心看着病人，做真正有温度、有关怀的医生。

That's the beauty of it in medical practice, where we now have ambient listening so that doctors can look at their patients and be those compassionate, caring physicians

这太棒了。

It's that amazing.

简直就是杀手级应用。

It's like a killer app.

目前这绝对是医学领域最厉害的应用，想法其实很简单，但意义重大——现在我们可以直视病人，不用一直盯着屏幕了。

Right now, it's the biggest killer app in medicine and it's such a simple idea, but it means we can look at our patients and not look at the screen.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我希望我们能以一种高效且负责任的方式使用人工智能，让它帮助我们更紧密、更高效地与真正的人合作，那些拥有真实故事和人文艺术表达的人。

So I am hoping that we can use AI productively, responsibly, and use it so that we can work more closely and more efficiently with actual humans who have human stories and human artistic inputs to share.

这确实是一个非常令人兴奋的试验。

So that is a very exciting trial.

我想稍微了解一下这方面的情况。

And I just wanna ask a little bit about that.

你们会告诉那些观看这些视频的参与者，这些内容是AI生成的还是人类创作的吗？还是说你们故意不透露，想看看他们会不会觉得其中一个更有人情味，或者相反？

So are you gonna tell the subjects, the participants who are being exposed to these videos, are you gonna tell them anything about whether this is AI or human, or is that gonna be latent and you wanna see if they sense that, Oh, this seems a little bit more human than this one or vice versa.

他们不会知道自己被分到了哪一组。

They will not know which arm they're gonna be randomized to.

只有在试验结束时，我们才会问他们，觉得刚才看到的视频是人类艺术家创作的，还是AI生成的。

And only at the end of the trial, we're gonna ask them if they thought the video they saw was generated by human artists or by an AI application.

这一定会非常有意思。

That's gonna be fascinating.

这太棒了。

I love that.

这也引出了一个问题：我们还在摸索，是否真的对人类创作的内容有直觉判断。

And it raises the issue that we're still learning if we have these human instincts about human generated material.

我们都觉得自己能分辨真假，过去总说：我一眼就能看出这是真的还是假的。

I think we all think we do, like historically we say, I can tell if something is real or fake.

我很好奇，我知道你专注的是医疗信息，我 reviewing 你的工作时，自己列的清单都吓了一跳——成瘾污名、流感犹豫、新冠、恐同、孤独感、食品中的添加糖、营养与烹饪，全都在里面。

And I wonder, I know that you focus on medical messages and it was amazing just to read my list that I was creating while I was reviewing your work, addiction stigma, which you mentioned, flu hesitancy, COVID, transphobia, loneliness, added sugar to foods, nutrition and cooking.

你真的聚焦在这么多重要的健康议题上。

You've really focused on this amazing array of health related things.

但我忍不住想，世界上还有那么多其他问题，这种讲故事的方式或许也能把人们凝聚起来。

But it strikes me that there are a lot of other issues in the world where this storytelling approach might bring people together.

我不知道你是不是会说，‘罗斯，健康话题我已经够忙了，让我歇会儿吧。’

I don't know if this is like your, if you would say, Russ, I have enough with health, give me a break.

还是说，你其实也想过，这些教育和沟通方式，能不能用在更广泛的社会议题上，比如能源、可持续发展，那些和健康有关但不直接属于健康领域的议题？

Or if you've allowed yourself to think about these methods of education and communication and what role they might have for the more general set of societal questions that come up, energy, sustainability, other things that are kind of maybe aligned with health, but not directly health.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们发布的一切内容，哪怕主要目的是传递健康信息，也会产生次要影响——希望能引发人们的共鸣。

I mean, I think everything we put out there, even if the primary focus is on delivering a health message, it also has a secondary impact in that hopefully it makes people feel something.

我期待，由人类创作的艺术作品，能够促进故事的分享。

And my hope is that with art created by humans, we are allowing for stories to be shared.

这些故事关乎我们的来处、当下的状态，以及我们渴望成为的样子。

And that involves where we come from, where we are today, who we hope to be.

它们承载着希望。

They're aspirational.

我希望，我们能借此激发更强的社会联结感，这正是我们当下最迫切需要的；也能培养更多同理心，因为我们在他人的故事或艺术中，看到了自己的影子。

My hope is that we can inspire a greater sense of social connectedness, which we urgently need right now, a greater sense of empathy towards others because we see ourselves in the stories that they share, either through storytelling or through their art form, whatever that may be.

现在比以往任何时候都更应该抓住这个机会，让彼此靠得更近一些。

And I think we really can lean into that now more than ever to bring people a little bit closer together than we are right now.

我突然意识到，你的这项试验对这项事业的未来至关重要。

And it strikes me that your trial will be so important for the future of this effort.

我觉得其实没什么坏消息。

I mean, I don't think there really is bad news.

我们可能会不自觉地站在人类这边。

We might find ourselves rooting for the humans.

我自己就挺支持人类的，虽然我特别看好AI。但假设人类对AI生成的内容完全满意，

Like I think I find myself rooting for the human and I'm a big AI guy, but let's say that we find that the humans are perfectly happy with both the AI generated content.

那这对你来说，应该是个扩大规模的好机会，对吧？

That does create an opportunity for you to, I would guess to scale up, right?

因为AI要是做得好，成本肯定更低。

Because the AI is, if it's good, it's probably gonna be cheaper.

这样每年能制作的视频数量也会更多。

It probably allows you to create more videos per year.

不过你真想每年做更多视频吗？这我倒不确定。

I don't even know if you wanna create more videos per year.

最后我想问问，你对这个试验怎么看？它可能带来哪些结果？你又会根据这些结果，怎么调整实验室或工作室的方向？

So tell me a little bit as we finish up, how are you thinking about that trial and the different outcomes that it may present you and how you might then adapt or modify the approach of your laboratory or your studio with regards to those results?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，就像我们在医疗领域引入人工智能时，必须始终有人参与其中，对吧？

So, I mean, I think just like when we integrate AI into healthcare, it's imperative that there's always a human in the loop, right?

在我看来，艺术也是如此。

And it's the same way with art in my opinion.

你想啊，任何完全由AI生成的艺术作品，其实都不是真正由AI独立创造的，因为这个AI工具所参考的，全是人类过去创作的所有艺术。

Because think about it, any art that's created entirely by AI, it isn't actually created entirely by AI because that AI tool is referencing all the art that's ever been created by humans.

如果这个源头枯竭了，那我们就真有麻烦了。

So if that well dries up, we're in big trouble.

所以我觉得，我们不仅要拼尽全力保护人类的艺术和叙事，同时也可以用AI来减轻人类的负担，让他们能更轻松地分享和提供素材，供未来AI辅助创作使用。

So I think that while we need to protect human art and human storytelling with our lives, I think we can really also use AI, as I said, to sort of unburden the humans so that they can more readily share and inform the work that may be assisted in the future by AI.

我注意到，现在的艺术家比以往任何时候都更重要、更受关注，至少在我这一生中是这样。正如你所说，社会分裂、沟通不畅，这些人类特有的经历，让艺术家以极其有力的方式表达出这些断裂的后果。

I have noticed that artists these days are, I think, more important and more high profile than they have been at other times, at least in my life, because as you pointed out, the societal divisions, the lack of good communication, these are human experiences that have led artists to kind of express in really powerful ways, like the consequences of those breakdowns.

我同意你的观点，艺术的源头必须是人类的真实体验，这一点至关重要。

And I agree with you that it's so critical to have that human experience be the source of the art.

你肯定不希望艺术的源头只是AI对人类生活体验的一种揣测。

And you don't really want the source of the art to be like some AI's interpretation of what we might be going through as living humans.

我更愿意直接听真正活着的人怎么说。

I would rather hear it from the living humans.

就像你说的， augmentation 这个概念——你知道的，我参与了斯坦福以人为中心的人工智能研究所，如果用一个词来概括他们的理念，那就是：AI 应该辅助那些在做有意义工作的人，而不是以取代人为目标。

And then as you say, this idea of augmenting, as you might know, I'm involved with the Stanford Institute for Human Centered AI and the whole mantra, if I were to say it in one word, is that AI should be augmenting humans who are doing good work and not that replacement should not be a goal.

我觉得你的工作就是一个完美的例子，根本不存在取代的必要。

I think your work is like a perfect example of where it really makes no sense to do replacement.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

非常感谢你，玛雅。

So thank you very much, Maya.

在结束之前，我想问一下，你准备好接受我们‘一分钟展望未来’这个环节了吗？

And before we leave, I just wanted to ask if you're ready for our feature called the future in a minute.

当然。

Sure.

我问你五个问题，希望都简短一点，然后你一一回答。

I'm gonna ask you five questions and hopefully they're short and then we'll get your answers.

第一个问题：在你看来，未来最让你感到有希望的一件事是什么？

So first, what is one thing that gives you the most hope about the future?

尽管我们生活在一个充满噪音和干扰的数字化世界里，但人类依然有能力被他人的故事深深打动。

I would say despite all of the noise and distraction in this very digitized world that we live in, we still have the capacity to be moved by the stories of other human beings.

这让我对未来充满希望。

And that gives me hope.

你希望听众听完这期节目后，记住最重要的一点是什么？

What's one thing you want people to walk away from this episode remembering?

真实的人类故事，基于真实经历的故事，不只是吸引人，更是帮助我们理解生活的强大力量。

That stories, human stories based on lived experiences are not just engaging, they're actually powerful tools that can help us make sense of our lives.

除了钱之外，你做研究最需要的是什么？

Aside from money, what is the one thing you need to succeed in your research?

我觉得是优秀的合作伙伴。

I would say talented collaborators.

我们很幸运，能和一群才华横溢的艺术家、科学家和生物统计学家合作，我们的工作完全依赖他们才能取得成果。

We are lucky to work with amazingly talented artists, scientists, biostatisticians, and we depend on them for all of our work if we wanted to succeed.

如果一切顺利，未来会是什么样子？

If all goes well, what does the future look like?

如果一切顺利，我希望我们能打造一个更有意识设计的媒体环境，它能促进团结、拉近人与人之间的距离，而不是进一步制造分裂。

If all goes well, I would hope that we could create a media environment that is more intentionally designed and that actually cultivates unity and bringing us together rather than dividing us further.

如果你从头再来，需要在另一个领域取得专业认证，你会选什么？

If you were starting over and you needed to get your certification or professional credential in a different discipline, what would that be?

我可能会去学电影制作或编剧，因为我越研究如何用故事来推动健康传播，就越被故事和电影改变人们观念的力量所吸引。

I think I would probably study filmmaking or screenwriting because the more I study storytelling for health communication, the more I become fascinated by the power of storytelling and film in general to change people's ideas.

感谢玛雅·亚当。

Thanks to Maya Adam.

这就是故事与健康未来的模样。

That was the future of storytelling and health.

感谢收听本期节目。

Thank you for listening to this episode.

别忘了，我们有超过300期的往期节目，随便你对什么感兴趣，都能找到相关的故事，关于未来的方方面面都有。

Remember, we have a back catalog of more than 300 episodes, so you can listen to stories about almost anything and the future of everything.

如果这期节目让你笑过、哭过、翻过白眼，或者觉得有意思，别忘了分享给朋友、邻居，或者任何你认识的人，帮我们扩大听众群。

If this episode made you laugh, cry, rolled your eyes, if you found it fun, please remember to share the show with your friends, neighbors, anybody you like to grow our audience.

要让别人知道这个节目，最好的方式就是有人主动跟朋友说：‘这节目真不错。’

That's the best way to spread news about the show is to have people tell their friends that they like it.

谢谢你考虑这么做。

So thanks for considering that.

你可以在多个社交平台找到我，比如领英、Threads、Mastodon和Bluesky，我的用户名是rbaaltman或者rusbyaltman。

You can connect with me on many social media, including LinkedIn, Threads, Mastodon and Bluesky, where I'm rbaaltman or rusbyaltman.

你也可以关注斯坦福工程学院，简称StanfordENG。

You can also connect with Stanford Engineering Stanford School of Engineering, or more briefly StanfordENG.

如果你对这期或者之前的节目有什么问题，欢迎给我们发邮件，文字提问或者语音留言都行。

If you'd like to ask a question about this episode or a previous episode, please email us a written question or a voice memo question.

我们可能会在未来的节目中用到你的问题。

We might feature it in a future episode.

你可以发送到 thefutureofeverything@Stanford.edu，全部连在一起，就是‘the future of everything’。

You can send it to thefutureofeverything@Stanford.edu, all one word, the future of everything.

不要加空格、下划线或者连字符。

No spaces, no underscores, no dashes.

thefutureofeverything@stanford.edu。

The future ofeverything@stanford.edu.

再次感谢你的收听。

Thanks again for tuning in.

希望你喜欢这个播客。

We hope you're enjoying the podcast.