592：脑雾、疲劳和代谢健康恶化的隐藏原因 | Will Cole, DC

我知道你可能想要更深入的东西，但我想提醒听众朋友们，不要去找那些不存在的问题，而是要把自己当作一个独立的实验对象。

I know you probably want something beyond it, but I would just be mindful for the listener out there, again, not to look for problems where there aren't problems, but just be your own N of one experiment.

不要把自己套进那个框框里，觉得‘我就该这么做’，我们要根据你肠胃的实际情况来调整，因为我们不仅仅是吃进去什么或补充什么，我们真正吸收了什么、消化了什么才是关键。我们的细胞需要吸收这些营养，不仅仅是肠胃系统，而是细胞层面的吸收。

Instead of fitting into that box and be like, This is what I'm supposed to do, we want to meet your gut where it's at mainly because we aren't just what we eat or supplement, we are what we absorb, we are what we can digest, And our cells need to absorb this stuff, not just on a gastrointestinal system, but on a cellular level.

所以，可以从更多的汤和炖菜开始。

So, that could start with more soups and stews.

也可以暂时尝试以动物性食物为主，减少植物性营养素的摄入，不是因为这些东西不好，实际上它们非常好，但问题不在食物本身。

That could start with a temporary sort of animal based, something that's low in these plant nutrients, not because these things are bad, actually they're really amazing, but it's not the food's fault.

它们是在给已经压力很大的肠胃系统和免疫系统增加负担。

They're stressing an already stressed out gut gastrointestinal system and immune system.

所以，重点是，我知道你的听众比大多数人做得更多，但我想说，有时候我们需要给压力过大的肠胃系统打个比喻性的石膏，尽可能温和地对待它，因为这样做的意义是什么呢？

So, the point being is I know your listeners are doing more than most people, but I would just say sometimes we need a proverbial cast on a stressed out gastrointestinal system, and that's being as gentle gut friendly as we can be because then what's the point of that?

就像打石膏一样，你是在慢慢建立韧性，然后逐步重新引入食物，这样你就能拥有多样化的饮食，以及那些神奇的植物性食物，它们具有异源效应，对吧？

As a cast, you're building resilience over time and then work on reintroduction so you can have diversity of foods and all these amazing plant foods that are out there that are xenohormetic, right?

这些多酚和类黄酮存在于很多水果、蔬菜等食物中，而那些散布恐惧的人会说它们对你不好，比如草酸盐。

These polyphenols and flavonoids that are in a lot of things like fruits and vegetables and all the things that the fearmongers would be like, they're horrible for you, the oxalates.

这些东西并不坏。

These things are not bad.

你需要一个强韧的肠道，而这些多酚类物质实际上能让你变得更强韧。

You need a resilient gut, and they actually can make yourselves more resilient, these polyphenols specifically.

你怎么知道自己的肠道失去了韧性？

How do you know if your gut has lost resilience?

比如，会有哪些症状表现出来吗？

Like, are those symptoms showing?

嗯，我觉得首先，他们可能自己心里有数，只是不太愿意说出来。

Well, I'd say, first and foremost, they probably know it, they're just probably not talking about it.

但首先从排便开始，按照布里斯托大便分类法，每天一到三次香蕉便算是正常的。

But it starts with bowel movements, understanding it's, on the Bristol chart, one to three snakes a day as far as pooping bowel movements.

所以，有很多很多人不是这样，但他们已经习惯了，因为这是他们的日常。

So, there's many, many, many people that aren't, and they've normalized it because it's their every day.

他们可能每隔几天才排便一次，而且感觉排不干净，或者三天一次也觉得正常，即使他们饮食正常。

So, they're going every couple days and it's incomplete or it's normal after three days, even though they're eating normally.

所以，很多时候是因为神经系统，很大程度上是微生物组本身，但神经系统也处于那种战斗或逃跑的应激状态，实际上就是迷走神经张力差。

So, there's a lot of because the nervous system, largely, the microbiome itself, but also the nervous system is in that fight or flight stress response, which is they have poor vagal tone, really what it is.

他们的休息和消化系统完全被搁置了。

Their resting, digesting system's completely in the back burner.

所以，看排便的频率和形态，饭后感觉如何是另一个指标。

So, looking at bowel movement, frequency and formation, how do you feel after a meal would be another one.

如果你饭后感觉腹胀，感觉需要解开裤子扣子，如果你知道所有洗手间的位置，而且你已经习惯了，因为你可能随时有上厕所的紧急情况，必须跑着去，那就不正常了。

If you feel bloated, if you feel like you have unbutton your pants after you eat, if you know where all the bathrooms are and you've just normalized that because you just may have a bathroom emergency and you have to run, that's not normal.

这些都是你的肠道处于压力状态的迹象。

Those are signs that your gut is stressed.

你的胃肠系统的细胞处于压力状态。

The cells of your gastrointestinal system are stressed.

而且有时候这跟食物没关系，对吧？

And also sometimes it has nothing to do with food, right?

我的意思是，有时候仅仅是马桶的设计就能让你的消化系统紊乱二十四小时，对吧？

Mean, sometimes it's just like the architecture of the toilet that can throw off your digestion for twenty four hours, right?

你有没有坐过那种好马桶？

Like ever sit on a toilet, like a good toilet?

我喜欢你这么说。

I love that you said it that way.

马桶的

The architecture of

设计。

the toilet.

我喜欢，比如蹲便器？

I like, squatty potties?

蹲便器很好，或者那种低矮的马桶。

Like a squatty potties are great or, like, a low to the ground toilet.

比如，我知道在我健身房。

Like, I know in my gym.

我还没想过马桶的人体工学设计。

So I haven't thought about this, the ergonomics of the toilet.

那我们来说说这个。

So let's walk through this.

你具体指的是什么？

Like what what are you talking about here?

嗯，我给你举个例子吧。

Well, like I'll just give you an example.

比如我们健身房有三个隔间。

Like at my gym, there are three stalls.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

我知道其中两个马桶离地面很低。

I know that two of those toilets are very low to the ground.

而且不管什么原因，我觉得你可能比我更懂人体结构。

And for whatever reason, I mean, they you probably know the anatomy better than me.

我是说，我知道当你坐得很低的时候，你的身体会呈现出一种类似蹲姿的状态，这是我们排便的自然方式。

I mean, I know that when you sit low to the ground, your your body is assuming more of like a squat, which is our natural way of of pooping.

对吧？

Right?

但是，在残疾人卫生间里有一个马桶，我拒绝使用，因为它离地面太高了。

But then there's there's one toilet in the handicap stall that I refuse to use because it's very high off the ground.

所以，但你知道，偶尔，比如当你必须去的时候，你就得去。

And so but like, you know, occasionally, like if when you gotta go, you gotta go.

所以有时候，你会发现自己坐在那种不符合人体工学的马桶上，而且你排不干净，这会打乱你一整天的消化。

So sometimes, like, you'll you'll find yourself on one of those ergonomically incorrect toilets and and you don't eliminate completely, and that throws off your digestion for the whole rest of the day.

说得好。

Great point.

马桶的高度，我从来没想过马桶的实际高度。

The height I I I never thought of the actual height of the toilet.

你说得太对了。

You're absolutely right.

所以这就是为什么，怎么说呢，蹲坑神器会这么有用，但你总不能随身带着一个蹲坑神器到处跑吧。

And that's what's leveraging, for lack of better word, the squatty potties could be so helpful, but you can't travel around with a squatty potty.

我相信肯定有，也许有旅行装的，但你听说过吗，最近社交媒体上特别火的那个叫“便便鞋”的东西。

I'm sure they could, maybe there are travel sized ones, but you hear about this, apparently this viral trending thing on social media called the shit shoes.

不会吧。

No.

就是那种七英寸的高跟鞋，我肯定不会穿，但对喜欢穿的人来说挺好的，它就是在模仿蹲坑神器的效果。

And they're the seven inch heels that, which I'm not gonna be wearing those, great for people that do, but it's mimicking the Squatty Potty.

所以你穿上这双七英寸的鞋，但这完全是营销手段。

So you're wearing these seven hinge, but this is complete marketing.

对吧？

Right?

不过某种程度上还挺聪明的。

It's like but it's kinda brilliant in a way.

在健身房那些随便的第三个隔间里，你没有蹲坑神器，直接穿上便便鞋就行了。

Four of those random third stalls at the gym, you don't have a squatty potty, you just wear the poop shoes.

那对话会挺尴尬的，比如，嘿，哥们，鞋子挺有意思的。

That'd be an awkward conversation, though, like, hey, man, interesting shoes.

我得把鞋脱了，兄弟。

I have to take my shoes off, buddy.

把那些放在包里，以防万一需要。

Carry those in your bag just in case you need it.

但是，对，回到你的观点，是的，姿势在生物力学上很重要。

But, yeah, to get back to your point, yes, the position biomechanically is important.

人类很久以来都是那样上厕所的。

Humans would have gone to the bathroom that way for a long time.

我们现在用的马桶，不利于肠胃正常排空，当然，尤其是再加上你已经有神经系统失调，身体本来就积压了很多东西。

The toilets, as we use them today, are not conducive to proper gastrointestinal emptying, certainly, especially on top of that, you already have nervous system dysregulation, your body's holding on to a lot of stuff anyways.

对，然后还有食物敏感。

Yeah, and then food sensitivities.

如果食物不爱你，那可能是消化问题，可能是脑雾，可能是皮肤反应，这种情况很多，这表明你的肠道健康不在理想状态，但你不一定需要有极端的消化症状，才能说明你感觉不好的背后有肠道因素。

If foods don't love you back, and it could be digestive problems, it could be brain fog, it could be a skin reaction, there's a lot of that going on, that's a sign that your gut health isn't where it needs to be, but you don't actually need to have extreme digestive symptoms to have underlying gut components to why you feel the way that you do.

所以，脑雾和疲劳实际上可能是肠道健康问题。

So, brain fog and fatigue can actually be a gut health issue.

肠道不好会引发很多全身性的连锁反应，而且你上厕所可能一切正常。

There's a lot of downstream systemic effects of a poor gut health, and you may be going to the bathroom just fine.

但实际上，如果仔细看肠道的影响，对很多人来说，它至少是问题的一部分。

But actually when you look at the gut's implication, it's going to be at least a piece of the puzzle for many people.

我总觉得那种“幽灵擦”挺有意思的。

I always find like the ghost wipe to be a

那是个很明显的信号。

That's a good telltale sign.

对，没错。

It's a yeah.

我是说，我确实在节目里问过胃肠科医生，“幽灵擦”是不是肠道健康的一个指标或者参考。

I mean, I've actually asked on the show gastroenterologists whether or not a ghost wipe is an indicator or like a proxy of good gut health.

他们真的没法给我一个明确的答案，但是……

And they really couldn't give me a straight answer, but

对，这个得做个随机对照试验才行。

Yeah, we need a randomized control trial on that.

是啊，但感觉某种程度上你做得对的时候，就是那种……

Yeah, but I mean, does feel like in a way you're doing things right when you

没错，确实能正常排空肠胃，频率信息也挺好的。

Yes, do get proper gastrointestinal emptying, it's good frequency information.

对，我觉得这方面需要一些数据支持。

Yeah, I would say we need some data around that.

你手头有几百万美元的话，那倒可以。

You have a few million dollars No.

我们就可以直接……

That we can just

不过我真想这么做。

Would love to do that though.

要是能资助这样的研究就好了。

Would to be able to fund something like that.

我觉得人们常常忘了，肠道是你与外界环境接触的最大界面。

I think people often forget that your gut is your largest interface with the environment.

他们以为是皮肤，但其实肠道里的东西严格来说并不算在你体内。

They think it's your skin, But what's in your gut is not technically inside your body.

它确实在你身体里，但并不是真正进入循环系统，你知道，你吃进去的食物里有些成分因为各种原因并没有被吸收。

It's in your body, but it's not really systemically, like, you know, there are components of the food matter that you consume that are not being let in for whatever reason.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

而且从细胞层面看，它也非常薄。

And cellularly it's very thin as well.

就是说，它确实很薄。

I mean it is that, it's very thin.

多年报道营养和代谢健康，我学到的一件事就是消化很重要。

After years of covering nutrition and metabolic health, one thing I've learned is that digestion matters.

这也是我多年来一直和Just Thrive合作的原因之一。

That's one reason I've worked with Just Thrive for years.

他们的益生菌含有四种基于孢子的菌株，这些菌株设计用于在消化道中存活并活着到达肠道。

Their probiotic uses four spore based strains designed to survive the trip through the digestive tract and reach the gut alive.

我信任这个品牌的一个重要原因是卡兰·克里希南。

And a big part of why I trust the brand is Karan Krishnan.

卡兰是一位研究微生物学家，也是Just Thrive的首席科学官，他多次上过我的节目，他非常聪明，正是我希望在产品背后拥有的那种科学权威。

Karan is a research microbiologist and the chief scientific officer at Just Thrive and he's been on my show multiple times, he's brilliant and exactly the kind of scientific authority I want behind a product like this.

因为说实话，我并没有亲自在实验室里测试每一粒胶囊。

Because let's be honest, I'm not in a lab personally testing every capsule myself.

现在，当你开始一个九十天的Just Thrive益生菌订阅时，你还会免费获得一个九十天的他们的消化苦味剂，我认为这款产品非常棒，价值90美元。

Right now when you start a ninety day Just Thrive Probiotic subscription, you'll also receive a free ninety day supply of their incredible, in my opinion, Digestive Bitters, a $90 value.

我喜欢这个产品，你在饭前不久服用苦味剂，苦味剂有助于激发你身体用来分解食物的消化液，包括胃酸、胆汁和消化酶。

I love this product, you take the bitters shortly before eating, the bitters help fire up the digestive juices your body uses to break down food including stomach acid, bile and digestive enzymes.

我特别喜欢在大餐前使用它们。

I especially like using them before a larger meal.

访问justthrivehealth.com/genius，在你的第一个九十天益生菌订阅中免费获得你的消化苦味剂。

Visit justthrivehealth.com/genius to get your free digestive bidders with your first ninety day probiotic subscription.

这两种产品都享有Just Thrive的100%退款保证，即使瓶子已经空了也可以退款。

Both products are covered by Just Thrive's 100% money back guarantee even when the bottle is empty.

再说一次，访问justthrivehealth.com/genius，首次订阅九十天益生菌，就能免费获得消化苦味剂。

Again, that's justthrivehealth.com/genius to get your free digestive bitters with your first ninety day probiotic subscription.

justthrivehealth.com/genius。

Justthrivehealth.com/genius.

好好享用吧。

Enjoy.

肠道内部的东西很容易被突破。

What's inside the gut is very can be very easily breached.

肠漏综合征会增加，这取决于机制上发生了什么，可能是跨细胞的，也可能是细胞间的。

Leaky gut syndrome is increased, and that's transcellular, intracellular, depending on what's going on mechanistically.

但细胞，回到之前的概念，它们失调了，混乱了，失去了完整性，本不该穿过肠道内壁细胞的东西，比如未消化的食物蛋白质和含有更多脂多糖的细菌毒素，却穿过了肠道内壁细胞，这是全身性炎症的关键事件。

But the cells are, back to the earlier concept, they are dysregulated, confused, they have lost integrity, and things are passing through the cells of the gut lining that should not be able to pass through the cells of the gut lining, like undigested food proteins and bacterial toxins that are higher in these lipopolysaccharides, which is the seminal event of systemic inflammation.

但确实，他们没有意识到这一点，但这是许多其他细胞功能障碍的门户。

But yeah, they don't realize that, but it is the gateway to a lot of other cellular dysfunction.

肠道细胞健康状况不佳，就会为全身性的细胞功能障碍打开一扇门。

It's poor cell health in the gut who create a sort of a gateway to a systemic cellulitis function.

你得保持肠道健康。

You got to keep the gut healthy.

那么，你觉得关键的行动点是什么？

So what would you say are the key needle movers then?

保持肠道健康？

Keep the gut healthy?

嗯，你得创造

Well, you have to create

先不说厕所的事。

Toilets aside.

先不说厕所和便便鞋的事。

Toilets and poop shoes aside.

你得创造稳定性。

You have to create stability.

我在跟远程医疗患者交流时想到的一个类比是，怎么才能创造稳定性？

The analogy that I think about when I'm talking to telehealth patients is how do you create stability?

所以，这就是排除饮食法的好处。

So, that's the benefit of an elimination diet.

排除饮食法有很多种做法，但你必须找到一种能让紧张的胃肠道平静下来的方法，因为如果你往森林大火里泼水，那只是杯水车薪。

So, an elimination diet, there's 101 ways to do an elimination diet, but you have to find a way that calms down a stressed out gastrointestinal system because if you're throwing something at a forest fire, it's going to be a drop in the bucket.

所以，像益生菌、后生元或者某种草药，不管是什么，它们的效果都不如用食物来安抚肠胃，因为这样至少能为治疗创造一些稳定性，让治疗真正发挥作用。

So, like the probiotic or the postbiotic or whatever this herb, whatever it is, it's not going to be as effective as if you can use food as a way to calm it cause that creates at least some stability for the therapeutic to actually do what it's supposed to do.

这是我的经验之谈。

That's my experience.

再说，我十五六年里见过成千上万的人。

Again, I've seen thousands and thousands of people over fifteen, sixteen years.

从临床营养的角度来看，就是要找到一个现在能反过来关爱你的饮食方案，不是让你执着于那种吃法，也不是让你把它当成你的身份标签，而是用它来度过一个阶段，让身体平静下来，然后再慢慢尝试重新引入其他食物。

So, a clinical nutrition standpoint, it's finding a food protocol that loves them back right now, not to become attached to that way of eating, not to make that your identity, but to use it for a season to calm things down and then work on reintroduction over time.

但我觉得在这个类别里，有些东西是不错的，比如芦荟汁就是其中之一。

But some things that I think that are good in that category, aloe juice would be one thing.

我觉得全叶芦荟汁对很多人的肠胃都很有帮助。

I think it loves a lot of people's gut back, like a whole leaf aloe juice.

我觉得用孢子型益生菌，要谨慎使用，不要过量，这是一个办法。

I think getting a spore based probiotic, being judicious with it, not overdoing it, is one thing.

发酵食品也有它们的作用。

Fermented foods have their place.

这些也得慢慢来，不能急，因为它们含有益生元、纤维和益生菌，效果很好，但它们是强效的肠道调节剂，而且组胺含量较高，所以不是所有人都适合，比如有组胺不耐受的人，我们经常见到有MCAS和肥大细胞活化问题的人。

You have to be low and slow with those as well, it's because it's great because it has the prebiotics, the fibers, and the probiotics, but they're powerful gut modulators and they are higher in histamine, so they don't work for everybody, people that have histamine intolerance, which we see a lot of MCAS and mast cell activation issues.

但我的目标是让他们能够耐受，所以可能需要等一等，但至少朝着这个方向努力，因为它是支持微生物组多样性的好食物。

But my goal is for them to tolerate it, so may have to wait a little bit, but to at least work towards that because it's a great food to support microbiome diversity.

是的，这些是一些想法，但舒缓的东西，比如舒缓茶，也很有帮助。

Yeah, so those are some thoughts, but calming things, like calming teas can be really helpful.

我喜欢发酵茶，比如普洱茶。

I like these fermented teas like puer tea.

没听说过。

Never heard.

等等，普洱，对。

Wait, puer, yeah.

普洱。

Puer.

对，普洱茶，就像一种……

Yeah, puer tea, like a

它是不是像红茶？

It's like a black tea?

对，就像红茶，对，

Yeah, it's like a black, yeah,

那是什么，发酵红茶吗？

What is that, a fermented black tea?

有意思。

Interesting.

它不像康普茶，那不一样，但确实，他们真的会发酵茶叶。

It's not like a kombucha, which is different, but yeah, they actually ferment the tea leaves.

哇。

Wow.

所以普洱茶里含有一些益生元和益生菌。

And so it has some prebiotics and probiotics in the puer tea.

所以这些茶，关于普洱茶的研究很多，其他茶也是，不是说只有普洱茶，很多像好的绿茶、好的乌龙茶都有。

So these teas, and there's a lot of research around the Puerre tea, and other teas too, don't want say it's just Puerre, it's a lot of these, like a good green tea, good oolong tea.

嗯，茶富含黄酮醇、黄酮类化合物，这些外源性植物化合物，我们知道它们对人类健康有益，很大程度上是因为它们对肠道微生物群的影响。

Well, teas are rich in flavonols, flavonoids, like all of these xenobiotic plant compounds that we know human health in no small part due to their impact on gut microbiota.

对，那不是肠道细菌。

Yeah, that's not gut bacteria.

发酵这些化合物，产生这些后生元。

Ferment these compounds, churn out these postbiotics.

现在很多人都在谈论尿石素A。

A lot of people now are talking about Urolithin A.

我知道你在书里提到过。

I know you mentioned that in the book.

这是一种后生元化合物。

It's a postbiotic compound.

不是每个人都能产生它。

Not everybody produces it.

我觉得这很大程度上取决于细菌。

I think it's highly dependent on The bacteria.

你肠道里的细菌，对，

The bacteria in your gut, Yeah,

你可以补充尿石素，但像石榴和黑莓里的鞣花酸，这些都是异源激素效应物质，所以茶里也有。

you can supplement with Urolithin, but ellagic acid in things like pomegranates and blackberries, these are all xenohormetic, so the tea has it.

想想那些颜色鲜艳的或者味道苦的东西。

Think of the brightly colored things or the bitter things.

这些异源激素效应物质，来自你提到的多酚、类黄酮，但它们对肠道有好处。

These xenohormetic things, that's from the polyphenols, these flavonoids that you mentioned, but they're good for the gut.

这往往就是其作用机制。

That is the mechanism oftentimes.

就像，你如何随着时间建立多样性？

It's like, how do you build diversity over time?

所以对于肠道健康来说，你一开始摄入量很低，如果你有很多消化问题，再慢慢增加。

For So gut health specifically, you start off low, then lean into it if you have a lot of digestive problems.

每个人都必须那么保守吗？

Does everyone have to be that conservative?

那样明智吗？

Is that judicious?

不。

No.

所以，如果你没有肠道问题，就对这些东西更放开一些，保持多样性。

So, if you don't have gut issues, just be more liberal with these things and have diversity.

长期目标就是让这些多酚和纤维多样化，但不是每个人现在都有那样的自由和灵活性。

That's the goal over time is to have diversity of these polyphenols and fibers, but not everybody has that freedom right now and flexibility.

但回到异源激素化合物的话题，确实很深刻，因为那株植物经历的逆境，就像那株植物生命中的核心，我觉得那有一种美丽的诗意，就像橄榄油的热度，就像土壤，就像那株植物、那棵树经历过的种种。

But yeah, back to the of the xenohormetic compounds, yeah, it's profound because the stress that that plant went through, like the heart of that life that that plant went through, I think there's something beautifully poetic about that, like the heat of the olive oil, like the soil, like that plant, that tree went through some stuff.

这就是为什么有机农产品这些成分含量更高，因为它们会有虫子来吃。

And that's why organic produce have higher levels of these because they have bugs eating it.

它们没有被喷洒除草剂和杀虫剂。

They're not sprayed with herbicides and pesticides.

所以，那些植物生命的核心——蓝莓、黑莓、石榴、橄榄油、巧克力，不管是什么，角豆、可可、茶——类黄酮含量更高。

So, the heart of the life of that plant, that blueberry, that blackberry, that pomegranate, that olive oil, that chocolate, whatever, carob, cacao, that tea, higher levels of eflavonoids.

那些植物的细胞教会我们的身体更有韧性，包括你的胃肠道细胞。

And the cells of that plant teach ourselves to be more resilient, including your gastrointestinal cells.

它们还会和细菌进行交流。

And they are communicative to the bacteria.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

是的，它们在恶劣环境中锻炼出了活力，不管它们要面对什么，无论是抵御昆虫还是小动物的捕食，它们都会把这种活力传递给你。

Yeah, they develop a vigor from the harsh environment, whatever it is that they've been tasked with having to fend fend to deal with, whether it's fending off, you know, predation from insects or smaller critters, and they pass that vigor onto you.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

太美了。

It's beautiful.

真的太美了。

So beautiful.

这就像《阿凡达》里的那种感觉，对吧？

It is like avatar type stuff, right?

我就是这么想的。

That's what I think of.

就像，全都是《阿凡达》那种。

Like, it's all avatar.

全都是《阿凡达》那种。

It's all avatar.

所以，这很刺激。

So, it's stimulating.

它能帮助你的细胞重新分化。

It's helping your cell to be differentiated again.

所以，那个胃肠道细胞能记得，哦，我本来应该是个肠道细胞。

So, that gastrointestinal cell can remember, Oh, I'm supposed to be a gut cell.

我本来应该做这个。

I'm supposed to do this.

我不需要这么紊乱，迷失方向。

I don't have to be so dysregulated and lost my way.

所以，这就是愈合发生的方式。

So, that's how healing happens.

这就是为什么我觉得不必要地限制食物，我想听听你的想法，不必要地限制食物，因为你看了个播客或者读了本书，因为那不适合别人，你就把大量的食物都排除了。

And that's why I think unnecessarily restricting foods, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, unnecessarily restricting foods because you saw on a podcast or read a book that because it didn't love somebody else back, you're eliminating huge amounts of foods.

我觉得那会制造问题，因为你限制了太多异源激素效应，你的身体就没有了韧性。

That, I think, creates a problem because you've limited so much xenohormesis that your body has no resilience.

然后你对所有东西都有食物反应，因为你需要大自然本身的拉锯来创造韧性，细胞韧性。

So then you have food reactions to everything because you need that tug and pull of nature itself to create resilience, cellular resilience.

所以，就像我提到的，这些排除饮食法有它的时机和场合，但要是无限期地做下去，永远不重新引入，那在我看来不是正确的做法，因为你的身体确实会对这些东西失去韧性，因为植物，这些植物性食物，比如草药、香料，我没提到，但像迷迭香、罗勒，所有好东西，姜黄，这些都有异源激素效应，它们实际上让你的身体保持韧性。

So, there's a time and place, as I mentioned, these elimination diet approaches, but to do it ad infinitum, like in perpetuity and never do reintroduction, that is not the way, in my opinion, because you do create, your body is not resilient to these things because the plants actually, these plant foods, meaning herbs, spices, I didn't mention that, but like rosemary, basil, all the good stuff, turmeric, these are xenohormetic and they actually keep yourself resilient.

它们有助于更新细胞功能。

They help to renew the cellular function.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

你知道，饮食多样性是一个非常有趣的变量。

You know, dietary diversity is a really interesting variable.

事实证明确实如此。

It it turns out to be the case.

这是基于塔夫茨大学的研究，达里·莫扎法里安，他现在是那里的“食物即药物”中心的负责人。

This is based on research from, Tufts University, Dari Mozaffarian, who's, he he now heads up the the Food as Medicine Center over there.

但他几年前发表了一项研究，发现更高的饮食多样性，也就是更坚持“什么都适量吃”的理念，当这种多样性只是更广泛的超加工食品时，反而与更差的健康状况相关。

But he published a study a couple years ago that found that higher dietary diversity, so greater adherence to the, you know, the the the concept of eating everything in moderation was is associated with worse health when the dietary diversity is just a broader array of ultra processed foods.

但当你的饮食富含多样化的动物产品和植物性食物，也就是完整的植物时，我们看到的健康状况会更好。

But when you're eating a a diet that is rich in a in a diverse array of animal products and plant foods, whole plants, then we see better health.

所以，当多样性来自超市货架上的那些食品，也就是超加工食品时，这些食品现在占普通美国超市的四分之三，健康状况似乎会更差。

So dietary diversity when, you know, the diversity is coming from the foods lining our supermarket aisles, right, the ultra processed foods, which now comprise three quarters of your average American supermarket, worse health outcomes seemingly.

但是当你摄入更多种类的全植物和动物性食物时，健康状况会更好。

But when you are consuming a broader array of whole plants and animal source foods, better health.

是的。

So Yeah.

你说得完全对。

You're completely right.

我完全同意，如果没必要地排除任何天然食物，你可能会自找麻烦，因为你会限制肠道细菌的多样性。

I would totally agree with that that by unnecessarily eliminating any whole food, like you're you're potentially shooting yourself in the foot because you are limiting the potential diversity of your gut bacteria.

你会限制自己接触那些我们甚至还没命名的无数化合物。

You're limiting your exposure to all of these many innumerable compounds we haven't even named yet.

水果和蔬菜中的抗氧化化合物，甚至动物性食物中也有，因为动物性食物，比如牛，它们会把吃进去的化合物整合到脂肪里。

Antioxidant compounds found in in fruits and vegetables and even in animal source foods because animal source, you know, like cows integrate, they bio integrate into their fat.

它们吃草时摄入的化合物。

The compounds that they're eating when they're eating grass.

而且所有的牛最初都是吃草长大的。

And all cows are are are raised on grass initially.

所以，是的，我很喜欢这次对话。

So, yeah, so I love this conversation.

你提到了，我想起另一种能促进细胞更新的食物，我指的是自噬通路、线粒体自噬和细胞膜完整性这些方面。

And you mentioned, I was thinking of another food that upregulates these cellular renewal, and by that, I mean autophagy pathways, myotophagy, and cell membrane integrity.

这些是让你的细胞不再混乱、不再去分化的关键。

These are the key things for your cell to be not confused anymore, to be not ex differentiated.

所以，这对你提到的肠道健康话题有好处，就是C15，这种在硬奶酪中存在的必需脂肪酸，研究发现多达三分之一的人可能患有细胞脆弱综合征。

So, this is good for gut health conversation you mentioned, is C15, this essential fatty acid that's in cheeses, like hard cheeses, that helps with studies found as many as one in three people may have cellular fragility syndrome.

他们的细胞膜失去了完整性。

It's their cell membrane has lost integrity.

我们需要健康的细胞膜，因为那是大脑神经递质受体的位置。

We need healthy because that's where the receptor sites to neurotransmitters are for the brain.

那是激素受体的位置，正确的激素。

That's where the receptor sites to hormones, proper hormones.

你需要健康的细胞膜完整性。

You need healthy membrane integrity.

这是我们书中讨论的一个重要部分。

It's a big part of what we talk about in the book.

所以，这种必需脂肪酸C15存在于奶酪等食物中。

So, this essential fatty acid, C15, is in things like cheeses.

其他食物里也有。

It's in other foods, too.

有趣的是，小麦胚芽里也有，所以像古老谷物酸面团面包，里面也含有一些C15。

It's in wheat germ, interestingly enough, so like an ancient sourdough bread, ancient grain sourdough bread has some C15 in it as well.

还有亚精胺。

And spermidine.

亚精胺也存在于小麦胚芽和奶酪中，有助于激活自噬通路。

Spermidine that's in wheat germ as well and cheeses helps with these autophagy pathways.

北约？

NATO?

你提到了那个，你特别指出了那个。

You talk about that, you call out that.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

去试试纳豆。

Go to NATO.

纳豆激酶，就是从中提取的酶。

NATO kinase, the enzyme from it.

是的，大自然有我们需要的一切。

Yeah, nature has what we need.

而且科学正在证实我们祖先的做法。祖先们没有随机对照试验。

And that science is substantiating what our ancestors Our ancestors didn't have the randomized control trials.

他们只是凭直觉看到，世界上某些地方的人吃纳豆吃了上千年。

They just saw intuitively people ate natto in certain parts of the world for thousands of years.

现在我们明白了，这确实是个好东西，对很多方面都有用。

And now we see, okay, this is a wonderful tool for many things.

那太好了。

That's so great.

我最喜欢做的事之一，就是去天然食品店逛逛。

I love my favorite thing to do one of my favorite things to do on the planet is to go to a to a natural food store Mhmm.

然后看看各种不同的产品，那些异国风味的食品。我去了我家附近洛杉矶的一家超市，就是那种天然食品店。

And to just look at all the just to peruse all the different products, the the exotic foods and the I was at a supermarket, you know, close to close to where I live here in LA, like a natural food soup.

大家可能都知道那家店。

People will probably be familiar with it.

我就不点名了，但那里东西很贵。

I'm not gonna drop the name, but very expensive.

是不是跟某个名字押韵？

Does it rhymes with?

对，押韵。

It rhymes.

以他们的果昔闻名。

Known for their smoothies.

可能跟海莉·比伯合作过，你懂的。

May or may not have done a collab with Hailey Bieber at some you know?

我看到了

I saw

对。

it.

我就不给他们免费打广告了，但他们现在有卖英吉拉，就是那种埃塞俄比亚的发酵薄饼。

Not gonna give them the free the free PR, but they now carry injera, a which is like an Ethiopian fermented flatbread.

我最近特别迷埃塞俄比亚菜，其实我一直都很喜欢。

I've been obsessed lately with I've I've long been obsessed with Ethiopian food.

我特别幸运。

I'm very lucky.

我住在洛杉矶。

I live in Los Angeles.

洛杉矶这里有很多埃塞俄比亚人。

A huge Ethiopian community here in in Los Angeles.

向埃塞俄比亚人致敬。

Shout out to Ethiopians.

但是他们的菜真的很好吃，而且我发现在家做也很简单。

But their their cuisine is incredible, and I I've discovered that it's very easy to make at home.

我不会说这是受埃塞俄比亚菜启发的。

Like, it's, I'm not gonna say it's Ethiopian inspired.

我不会说我跟土生土长的埃塞俄比亚人做得一样好，但你只要买那种叫berber的香料，配上姜、蒜和盐，味道就是满分。

I'm not gonna say that I'm as good as a traditional born and bred Ethiopian, but you just buy the spice berber and you combine it with some ginger, some garlic, some salt, and it is 10 out of 10.

不过话说回来，我去超市的时候发现了一个牌子。

But that being said, went so I went to the supermarket and I I found there's a brand.

是一个叫Eleni's的牌子，我跟他们没关系。

It's by a brand called Eleni's, no affiliation.

他们做英吉拉，就是那种埃塞俄比亚的酸面包。

They make injera, which is like Ethiopian sourdough.

它就像那种薄薄的煎饼，而且天然无麸质。

It's like this flat crepe of it's naturally gluten free.

就是用发酵的苔麸和水做的，真的特别好吃。

It's fermented teff and water, and it is so good.

我提这个是因为我现在开始买这个了，对。

And I'm I'm bringing it up because it's like now I'm buying it Mhmm.

然后我就接触到了这种苔麸谷物，我是说，多久才能遇到一次？

And I'm being exposed to this teff grain that I mean, how often?

如果我

If I

能有个五分钱的话，这在美国可不常见。

had a nickel, it's not a common American thing.

对。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

发酵的苔麸谷物。

Cultured teff grain.

但你想啊，在那个英吉拉薄饼里面，对吧，有各种各样的后生元，我们甚至还没给它们命名呢，可能对我身体有好处。

But there's like, you have to imagine that within that injera crepe, right, there's all kinds of postbiotics that like we have yet to even name that are probably doing good things for me.

对吧？

Right?

就是发酵的苔麸。

Like it's fermented teff.

我的一个祖先，我的一个犹太祖先

One of my ancestors Like, one of my Jewish ancestors

我正想说，埃塞俄比亚的犹太人

I was gonna say, Ethiopian Jews

从波兰和东欧的犹太小镇出来的，有些人跟苔麸有关。

Born out of the shtetls of Poland and Eastern Europe were like Some of it to teff.

发酵的苔麸。

Fermented teff.

你说得对。

You're right.

我明白，我同意你的看法。

Abs I hear I'm with you.

那就是团队发酵的苔麸。

That's team fermented teff.

我完全同意。

I I'm all that way.

所以，宣布今天的赞助商是

So, announce today's sponsor is

我喜欢这个。

I like this.

发酵的，对，发酵的苔麸。

Fermented Yeah, fermented teff.

开玩笑的。

Just kidding.

所以，我百分之百同意你。

So, I agree with you 100%.

我正想说，埃塞俄比亚的犹太人和基督徒是我最喜欢的一些人。

I was going to say Ethiopian Jews are some of my favorite people, Ethiopian Christians.

我遇到过很多很好的埃塞俄比亚人。

I've met so many good Ethiopians.

这是怎么回事呢？

What is it about it?

我是说，他们有一种深厚、丰富、美好的精神生活，我这辈子跟很多埃塞俄比亚人聊过。

I mean, there is just like a deep, rich, beautiful, spiritual life that I've talked to so many Ethiopians in my life.

我跟他们其实不太熟，但他们出现在我的生活中，我就是很喜欢他们。

I don't even know them that well, but they come across my life, and I just love them.

这是因为，我是说，因为他们的美食太

It's because, I mean, because their cuisine is so

太糟糕了，跟食物有关。

damn It sucks with the food.

但你听说过这个吗？

But did you hear this?

我不想跑题，很快说一下，但有人告诉我，在埃塞俄比亚有个地方，他们认为那里存放着约柜。

I don't want to go on a tangent, real fast, but there's this place in Ethiopia that they have told me that they think that's where the Ark of the Covenant is.

他们说，里面的那个祭司会失明。

And they go, like the priest that's in there goes blind.

他们会得白内障，就像旧约里说的那样。

They get cataracts, just like it does in the Old Testament.

这些人，这地方非常神圣，他们相信这种属灵能量就像核反应一样，人可以在里面。

These guys, it's very sacred, and they believe it's so nuclear reactive, this spiritual energy is what they believe, that people can be in it.

而且显然，埃塞俄比亚人就是它的家。

And apparently, the Ethiopians are home.

所有看这个节目、听这个节目的埃塞俄比亚人都会告诉你。

All the Ethiopians that watch and listen to this will tell you.

我不知道那地方叫什么名字，但它在埃塞俄比亚，而且在我的遗愿清单上。

I don't know the name of it, but it's in Ethiopia, and it's on my bucket list.

因为我想去看看，那到底是不是约柜？

Because I want to see, is it the Ark of the Covenant?

我应该当印第安纳·琼斯。

I ought to be Indiana Jones.

去看看怎么回事。

And see what's up.

我觉得可能是因为他们的菜太好吃了。

I think it's I think it's probably because they're I think it's because their cuisine is is that good.

来自

Comes from

我是说，像我们犹太人，食物太难吃了。

I mean, like Jews, our food is terrible.

这大概就是我们这么神经质的原因吧。

Like, that's probably why we're so neurotic.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我们的马佐球汤，好吧，马佐球汤还不错。

Like, we we matzo ball I mean, okay, matzo ball soup is pretty good.

但还有什么呢？

But what else?

就像那个白鱼。

It's like the white fish.

我这辈子从没吃过白鱼，我的意思是，那味道真的不行。

I've never had in my life the white fish and the I mean, it's just bad.

你得尝尝更多……

You need to get more of the

不是针对我们同胞啊。

No shade to my people.

也许塞法迪犹太菜会……

Sephardic Jewish cuisine maybe a

稍微好一点。

little bit.

我觉得我们有熟食店，比如那种熟食店，

I guess we have deli, like deli,

你知道的。

you know.

但那不是传统的犹太菜。

But that's not like traditional Jewish.

我觉得这个理论挺有道理的。

I think this is a good theory.

确实。

It is.

一个关于食物的问题。

A food problem.

嗯，我觉得，当你吃得好的时候，你知道，就像马斯洛的需求层次理论。

Well, I think, yeah, when you're well fed, you know, it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

对吧？

Right?

当你吃得好，用健康的、有营养的食物滋养身体时，就像你说的，器官出问题的最早的一些迹象，比如脑雾、精力下降。

When you're well when you're eating good and you're nourishing your body with healthy nourishing foods, like you said it, like the some of some of the earliest complaints of things gone awry with your organs, it's like brain fog, it's the energy dips.

对吧？

Right?

但是当这些基本需求都满足了，吃得好，身体得到好的滋养，也运动了，精神和社交方面也都得到了滋养，对。

But when you've got those bases covered and you're eating good food and you're feeding your body well and you're moving and you're nourished spiritually and socially Mhmm.

我的意思是，你就能成为一个好人。

I mean, you get to be a nice person.

否则，你就会变成拉里·戴维那样。

Otherwise, you end up like Larry David.

不过他挺搞笑的。

He's funny though.

他确实搞笑。

He is funny.

他确实搞笑。

He is funny.

而且他还有钱。

And he's rich.

你在书里也经常提到线粒体。

You also talk about you talk about mitochondria a lot in your book.

我很喜欢书里的一句话，就是说能量不是局部的问题。

I love one of the lines in the book, is that energy is not a local issue.

它是全身性的。

It's systemic.

所以当你的器官有问题时，可能会在身体的其他部位表现出来，你能在全身层面上感知到。

So when you've got organs that are struggling, that might manifest in other parts of your body in a way that you can perceive on the systemic scale.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

这是衰老的标志之一。

So it's one of the hallmarks of aging.

如果你看看科学公认的细胞衰老的标志，肠道菌群失衡就是其中之一。

If you look at what science recognizes as these hallmarks of cellular aging, microbiome imbalance is one of them.

所以肠道健康就是其中之一。

So gut health is one of them.

另一个呢？

Another one?

线粒体功能障碍。

Mitochondrial dysfunction.

所以很难找到一个人，他正在经历健康问题，或者只是感觉状态不佳，而线粒体功能障碍不是他感觉不好的原因之一。

So it would be hard to find someone that's going through a health problem or just you not feeling your best and not having mitochondrial dysfunction being at least a component to why you feel the way that you do.

而且它是你细胞的能量工厂。

And it's your cellular energy factories.

它们是古代细菌的后代，我觉得这是另一个美丽而富有诗意的地方。

They're descendants of ancient bacteria, which I think is another beautiful, poetic thing aspect of it.

线粒体，在你身体的每个细胞里，几乎每个细胞里，都有自己的DNA。

Mitochondria, in every cell of your body, nearly every cell of your body, has its own DNA.

那不是你的DNA。

It's not your DNA.

而且实际上有一种美妙的相互作用，很好的过渡，就是微生物组和线粒体之间的相互作用。

And there's this beautiful crosstalk actually, great segue the microbiome mitochondria crosstalk.

你肠道里的微生物和细菌通过线粒体进行交流，因为它们本身就是细菌。

The microbes, the bacteria in your gut communicate through the mitochondria because they are bacteria themselves.

所以，这非常重要。问题是我们的细胞又困惑了，因为分化正在进行。

So, it's profoundly important we need The problem is our cells again are confused as X differentiation is going on.

所以，mTOR，那个促进生长的通路，太活跃了。

So, mTOR, that pro growth pathway, is too high.

线粒体变得通透。

The mitochondria get leaky.

人们听说过肠漏综合征，还有脑漏综合征，也就是血脑屏障通透性增加。

People have heard of leaky gut syndrome, and there's leaky brain syndrome or increased blood brain barrier permeability.

首先，有构成血脑屏障的细胞，也有构成胃肠系统的细胞。

Well, first of all, there's cells that make up the blood brain barrier, the cells that make up the gastrointestinal system.

所以，在你看到全身性的通透之前，实际上线粒体内部就已经有细胞层面的渗漏了。

So, before you see systemic leakiness, there's actually cellular leakiness in the mitochondria.

这些线粒体渗漏综合征，虽然现在还不是一个正式的说法，但也许你应该现在给它起个名字。它们产生ATP或能量，对吧？

These leaky mitochondria syndromes, it's not a thing, but maybe you should coin it now, but they're creating ATP or energy, right?

但它们也在释放这些活性氧，这些促炎氧化应激标志物。

But they're also releasing these reactive oxygen species, these pro inflammatory oxidative stress markers.

而且我们的细胞就像我们一样也要上厕所。

And our cell goes to the bathroom just like we do.

我们之前聊过排便的问题。

We talked about pooping a little bit ago.

我们吃东西，然后要上厕所，细胞也吃东西，我。

We eat food, we're supposed to go to the bathroom, our cell eats food, I.

嗯。

E.

我们摄入的营养物质，会产生ATP或细胞能量的副产物，其中一部分就是这些活性氧。

Nutrients that we consume, and there's a byproduct of ATP or cellular energy, and it's in part these reactive oxygen species.

你的身体需要把它们排出去，但当细胞处于应激状态时，细胞膜被氧化得更厉害，通透性降低，所以好东西进不来，坏东西出不去。

Your body needs to get rid of them, but when the cell's stressed out, the membrane is more oxidized, less permeable, so the good things can't get in and the bad things can't get out.

我们会出现细胞便秘，而线粒体功能障碍是导致这种情况的重要原因，因为这就像一个恶性循环，细胞可以说是无法摆脱困境，而那些本应正常调节这一过程的通路却被搁置了，因为细胞已经混乱了。

We have cellular constipation, and mitochondrial dysfunction is contributing to that significantly because it's just this vicious cycle because the cell just can't get its head above water, so to speak, and the pathways that we need to be there to regulate that appropriately is on the back burner because the cell is confused.

所以，我们需要某种细胞体细胞更新的意识重编程，如果你愿意这么说的话。

So, we need sort of the cellular somatic renewal awareness reprogramming, if you will.

而且我们之前提到的很多食物，还有其他方式，研究里的总称就是“毒物兴奋效应”。

And a lot of those foods we mentioned earlier and other ways, I mean, the umbrella in the research is hormetic.

剂量决定毒性，但也决定药效。

The dose makes the poison, but it also makes the medicine.

这些逆境模拟物，就是给身体施加脉冲式压力的东西，不管是多酚类，还是断食、生酮饮食、冷暴露等等，它们都有什么共同作用呢？

These adversity mimetics, what are things that are pulsed stressors to the body, whether it be polyphenols or it could be fasting or the ketogenic diet or cold, whatever, What do they all do?

很多都能降低mTOR，并激活AMPK——细胞的“首席财务官”——告诉它：现在别太侧重生长了。

Lower, a lot of them, lower mTOR and shift AMPK, the CFO of the cell, to say, Okay, not so much pro growth right now.

我们要刺激修复。

We want to stimulate repair.

所以，这就是自噬和线粒体自噬，也就是线粒体更新的发生时机。

So, that's where autophagy and mitophagy, or mitochondrial renewal happens.

所以，一旦你理解了细胞需要什么，需要哪些输入来更新自己，其实就很简单了。

So that's really quite simple once you understand what the cell needs, these inputs that the cell needs to be renewed.

那么，您会不会认为，如今普遍存在的氧化应激的一个主要驱动因素，其实就是营养过剩呢？

Now, would surmise that a big driver of this, of the of the rampant oxidative stress that we see today is simply over nutrition.

就是我们一直在吃，我觉得你特别提到营养过剩，实际上我们现在往往是营养不足但吃得太多。

Is that we're just eating and I think you call out over nutrition specifically the fact that we are that we tend to be undernourished but overfed today.

但营养过剩这个词，科学上就是说我们一直在给线粒体灌输能量，全天候不停歇。

But overnutrition is sort of like the scientific term for the fact that we're just, we're flooding these mitochondria with energy 20 fourseven.

对，完全正确。

Yeah, that's exactly right.

就是说那个mTOR通路，也就是哺乳动物雷帕霉素靶蛋白。

I mean, that's that mTOR pathway, the mammalian mechanistic target of rapamycin.

它太高了，虽然身体需要它，但已经完全失衡了。

It's just high too much for, need it, but it's just completely out of balance.

所以细胞得不到喘息的机会，这样会耗尽线粒体，可以说是烧坏它。

So there's no, the cell does not get a reprieve from and it's burning it out, it's burning out the mitochondria, if you will.

营养过剩可能对一些人来说有点困惑。

And overnutrition might be confusing to some.

不是说你摄入了太多营养素，而是你摄入了太多能量。

It's not that you're getting too many nutrients, It's that you're getting it's too much energy.

热量太多，营养不够。

Too many calories, not enough nutrients.

对。

Right.

我觉得这主要是因为我们现在摄入的热量太多了。

Which is I think driven primarily today by just the over consumption of of of calories.

能量完全失衡了。

Energy is is far out of balance.

我们大多数人一直处于能量过剩的状态，这一点从肥胖统计数据就能看出来。随便看一眼人口数据，几乎每两个人里就有一个不仅超重，甚至已经达到肥胖的程度了。

Most of us are just in an energy surplus all the time, and that's illustrated by the obvious obesity statistics that anybody will you know, that it just even a cursory look at population level data, almost one in two of us are not just overweight but obese today.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

所以，这条通路是存在的。

So, the pathway is there.

但它一直处于休眠状态，因为我们从来没有给它机会去上调。

It's just a sleep at the wheel because we don't ever give it a chance to upregulate.

所以，你说得完全对。

So, you're absolutely right.

回到我之前提到的那些肽类，这就是为什么这些药物的剂量很重要，对吧？

And going back to the peptides that I talked about earlier that I do, that's why the dose of these things matter, right?

你想刺激什么？肽类是什么？

You want to stimulate What are peptides?

肽类有助于细胞间的通讯。

Peptides help with cellular communication.

它们实际上帮助你的细胞分化。

They actually help your cells to differentiate.

在某种程度上，这就是它们的作用。

In part, that's how they were.

而且，正如你所说，你不希望生长激素一直处于高水平。

And you don't want growth hormone, to your point, of always being high.

所以，那些使用这类生长激素肽的人，不要以为可以随意使用，应该谨慎、保守地使用，因为所有长寿研究者都会说这不是我们想要的，这也是为什么他们对过度营养这个话题很关注。

So, people that are on these growth hormone type peptides, don't think they done should judiciously and conservatively because all the longevity researchers would say that's not something we want, and that's why they're mindful of this overnutrition conversation.

这很关键。

It's key.

要注重饱腹感强的食物和饮食多样性，而且我们选择的食物最好是天然的全食物。

Focus on satiating foods, dietary diversity, when we're when the foods that we're choosing from are whole foods.

我很喜欢这个。

I love this.

如果你能给大家三个日常习惯，帮助他们在未来二十年里保护细胞，你会推荐什么呢？

If you could give someone just three daily habits to protect their cells over the next twenty years, what would you leave them with?

这是个

That's a

好问题。

good question.

我觉得最重要的几件事，首先是要顺应你肠胃的现状，然后逐步增加一些外源性化合物的摄入。

So I would say the kind of the top things that we would want to do, I would work and meet your gut where it's at, but bring in more of these xenobiotic compounds.

比如颜色鲜艳的食物，像石榴、黑莓、蓝莓这些。

So, I would say brightly colored things like pomegranates, blackberries, blueberries.

我觉得越苦越好，越酸越好。

Think the bitter the better, the tartness.

这表示里面的多酚含量会更高。

That's a sign that these polyphenols are going to be higher in there.

特级初榨橄榄油如果带苦味，多酚含量也很高。

Extra virgin olive oil that's bitter, that's high in these polyphenols as well.

还有我提到的那些茶。

These teas that I mentioned.

我会说，尽量让肠胃适应，然后慢慢增强肠道韧性，这样就能摄入更多种类的多酚，因为它们也像益生元一样。

I would say cultivating it to digestive tolerance as much as you can and then build gut resilience over time so you can have more diversity of these because these polyphenols act like prebiotics too.

不只是纤维才能促进微生物多样性。

It's not just about fiber that creates microbiome diversity.

这些多酚其实在这方面效果很好，而且它们的作用远不止于此。

These polyphenols actually do that quite beautifully, but they do so much more than that too.

它们还能帮助细胞更新，激活这些细胞更新的通路。

Mean, they are helping with the cellular renewal, these cellular renewal pathways.

所以，我会这么说。

So, I would say that.

第二，我觉得可以通过周期性的间歇性禁食来实现轻微的热量赤字。我认为间歇性禁食有脉冲式的阶段，你不需要一直严格地执行一日一餐，你可以有灵活性，允许在更大的进食窗口内摄入多样化的食物，然后在其他时间找到这些细胞休眠期，专门用来建立代谢灵活性，因为加速细胞老化的燃料就是代谢不灵活和胰岛素抵抗。

Number two, I would say looking at this slight caloric deficit through just cyclical intermittent fasting, I think there's pulse times of intermittent fasting where you're not always doing strict OMAD, you're having flexibility, you're allowing for a different diversity of foods with bigger eating windows, then times of finding these cellular siestas, time defined to build metabolic flexibility, because gasoline on accelerated cellular aging is metabolic inflexibility, insulin resistance.

所以，禁食是上调这些细胞更新途径的最美妙的方式之一。

So, fasting is one of the most beautiful ways to upregulate these cellular renewal pathways.

你想想，在瑞士有个叫帕拉塞尔苏斯的人，大约在15世纪末或14世纪末、15世纪初。

When you think of, there's this guy called Paracelsus in Switzerland in the late 1500s or late 1400s, early 1500s.

他把禁食称为内在的医生，我觉得这个说法很美。

He called fasting the physician within, which I think is a beautiful way of knowing it.

再说，现代人的傲慢，这家伙没有随机对照试验。

Again, the hubris of modernity, this guy didn't have RCTs.

他只是看到，嘿，很多人通过这个变好了。

He just saw, Hey, a lot of people got better with this.

但他是现代毒理学之父，帕拉塞尔苏斯。

But he's the father of toxicology today, Paracelsus.

所以，禁食确实能上调这些促进更新的通路。

So, it up regulates these prone renewal pathways fasting does.

然后人们总是过于简单化，说女人不能禁食，或者这些人不能禁食。

And then people are overly simplistic and say, Well, women can't fast, or These people can't fast.

禁食的方式有很多种。

There's so many ways to do fasting.

找到一种适合你的禁食方式，顺应你身体的状态，这是数据中明确显示的，有助于上调细胞回收通路（如自噬）和线粒体更新通路（如线粒体自噬）的方法之一。

Find a way that you fast, meet your body where it's at, and that is one of the clear things in the data to show what are ways to help with upregulating the cellular recycling pathways like autophagy and upregulating mitochondrial renewal pathways like mitophagy.

所以，我认为这会是第二点。

So, I would say that's going to be number two.

然后第三点，我的意思是，我不知道这是不是，别在评论区喷我啊，因为肯定会有人说，哎呀，还有更好的第三点。

And then three, I mean, I don't know if this is Don't come at me in the comments, guys, because it's gonna be like, Oh, man, there's a better third one.

但我觉得，我们今天的生活方式，无论是从全球社会层面还是个人层面，都可以概括为：当人类自以为是上帝时，就会产生意想不到的后果，有时甚至是意料之中的后果。

But I would say a lot of this, the way that we're living life today on an existential global societal level, but also individual levels, all can be summarized with when mankind pretends to be God, there's unintended consequences, and sometimes intended consequences.

所以，这就是我们对待地球的方式，对待他人的方式，以及我们饮食的方式。

So, that's how we treat the planet, it's how we treat other people, It's how we eat.

我们就是太自大、太傲慢了。

We just have this hubris and arrogance.

所以，我要说的第三件事，虽然有点抽象，但我觉得它有很多连锁反应，那就是我们与上帝的精神连接，不管这对你来说意味着什么。

So, I would say the third thing, which is a little bit more abstract, but I think have a lot of ripple effect connections, is our connection, our spiritual connection to God, whatever that means to you.

但我会说，去培养与上帝的关系吧。

But I would say cultivate a relationship with God.

这可以通过大自然来实现，对我来说大自然就是深刻的体现，我称之为上帝的艺术。

And that could be through nature, which it is profoundly for me, what I call God art.

就像感受那些难以言喻的东西，感受那种壮丽，这与接地气、地球的电磁频率有关，那些上帝创造的电磁场，非偏振电磁场，以及它们如何帮助我们自身的细胞电系统。

It's like taking in the ineffable, taking in the majesty, which is connections to that, if you look at earthing and the electrical frequencies of the Earth, the actual God made EMFs, non polaroid EMFs, and how that helps with our own cellular electrical system.

所以，我建议你把那些难以言喻的东西带入你的生活，这可以是去教堂，去犹太会堂，或者某种祈祷、感恩的练习。

So I would say bring in the ineffable in your life, and that could look at, it could be a church, it could be a synagogue, it's some sort prayer, gratitude practice.

研究表明，有持续精神或宗教实践的人，炎症水平更低。

The research is showing that people that have a consistent spiritual religious practice have lower inflammation levels.

他们的超敏C反应蛋白水平也更低。

They have lower high sensitivity C reactive protein.

他们的死亡几率降低了，因为他们的细胞活得更久。

They have a decreased odds of dying because their cells are living longer.

他们的韧性更强了。

They have increased resilience.

你知道吗，医生。

You know Doctor.

丽莎·米勒？

Lisa Miller?

你请她上过你的播客吗？

Have you had her on your podcast?

没有。

No.

她很棒。

She's great.

她在哥伦比亚大学。

She's at Columbia.

她谈到了这个。

She talks about this.

她测量了所有这些生物标志物，发现那些有灵性修行和信仰社群的人，社群也是其中一部分，会在细胞层面产生如此大的连锁反应。

She measures all these biomarkers that people that have a spiritual practice and a faith community, community's part of that, has such a cellular ripple effect.

但这也决定了你吃的东西

But also determines the food you're

要

going to

吃，对吧？

eat, right?

如果人们尊重自己，把自己看作礼物、上帝的创造，他们会怎么吃？

If you people that respect themselves and see themselves as like a gift, a creation of God, how are they going to eat?

他们会怎么对待身边的人？

How are they going to treat their people?

不是说每个信教或有灵性的人都会这样，但如果你真正去看耶稣、圣经、上帝的做法，你会开始以更一致的方式对待他人。

Not to say every religious person or spiritual person does, but truly, if you're looking at the practices of Jesus, the Bible, God, you start to treat people in a more aligned way.

所以，你自身会产生连锁反应，但其他人也会受到影响。

So, there's a ripple effect of you, but also other people.

所以，我认为数据已经提供了足够的证据，说明我们为什么要这样做。

So, I would say the data points to enough of evidence to show why we should do this.

而且我觉得，不需要是信教的人，只要看看周围，就会发现我们现在处理世界的方式行不通。

And I think it just doesn't take a spiritual person to look around and say, Why we're doing the world right now isn't cutting it.

现在有很多问题，我确实认为这是因为精神上的脱节。

There's a lot of problems and I do think it's because of the spiritual disconnection.

对，那也……我是说，我不太熟悉哥伦比亚大学的米勒博士。

Yeah, that also, I mean, I'm not familiar with Doctor.

但这和达彻·凯尔特纳的研究很吻合，他是我们节目请过的一位教授。

Miller from Columbia, but it dovetails with the work of Dacher Keltner, he's a professor who we had on the show.

我想他来自斯坦福，但他发表了一项研究，把更频繁的敬畏和惊奇体验与全身炎症水平降低联系起来，这非常吸引人，虽然只是相关性，不一定是因果关系，但确实有些道理。

I think he's out of Stanford, but he he published a study linking, more regular experiences of awe and wonder to lower levels of inflammation systemically, which is super fascinating, correlational, not necessarily causal, but There's something there.

确实有些道理。

There's something there.

所以不管你是不是信教的人，还是像我一样不信教，但你会用其他方式带着敬畏和惊奇去看待每一天，我觉得这真的是，对，非常好的建议。

So whether whether you are a religious person or like me, you're not a religious person, but you find other ways of viewing your day with awe and wonder, I think that's really, yeah, really good advice.

我只是觉得，这不会有坏处。

I just It can't hurt.

不会有坏处。

It can't hurt.

对，不会有坏处。

No, it can't hurt.

而且它会影响你生活中的很多方面。

And it's gonna inform so many different things in your life.

如果你把自己看作，就像圣经里说的，我们是圣灵的殿，我们的身体是上帝赐予的礼物。

If you see yourself, like the Bible talks about, we're being, we're the temple of the Holy Spirit, where our body is a gift from God.

我也同意，教会和宗教人士其实并没有真正意识到这些话的力量，但我们会怎样对待那种神圣呢？

And I agree that the church and religious, they don't really realize the power of those words, but how would we treat that sacredness?

比如，当我们想到你作为人的健康的神圣性，然后去对待他人时，我们真的会怎样对待自己呢？

Like, how do we really treat ourselves when we think about that sacredness of your health as a human being and then treat other people.

我觉得这在细胞层面会产生深远的连锁反应。

I think there's a profound ripple effect on a cellular level.

而且，是的，这方面可以聊很多，但我确实认为这是影响其他健康选择的重要部分。

And again, yeah, could go on and on about that, but I do think it's a significant part that will inform many other health choices.

然后关于那个，你知道，我现在不是经常，我不是那种定期禁食的人。

And then regarding the, you know, I'm not like, I'm not today a regular, like, I don't engage with fasting all that regularly.

但我确实觉得这有它的道理。

But I do think that there is something to be said.

现在的人哪怕稍微有点饿就受不了。

Like, people today are so perturbed by even the slightest whiff of hunger.

对吧？

Right?

但我觉得，当你想要减掉体脂的时候，有点饿是正常的，不应该饿得受不了，但稍微有点饿是难免的。

But but I think it's, know, when you're in a when you're when you're trying to lose body fat, like a little bit of hunger, like a little bit, like it shouldn't be overwhelming, but like a little bit is kind of par for the course.

而且，随着奥泽匹克这类药物的兴起和滥用，我们过度地把对食物的执念当成了一种病。

Well, and I think even more so with this sort of rise of Ozempic and overdoing it, we've pathologized food noise to such a great degree.

就好像我们害怕那种感觉。

It's like we're afraid of that.

我们就是那样。

We just like that.

我觉得这其实造成了很多饮食失调，因为他们过度使用奥泽匹克，而且害怕感到饥饿。

I think it's actually creating a lot of disordered eating because they're overdoing Ozempic, and they're afraid of feeling hunger.

那是正常的。

That's normal.

我是说，你应该有那种感觉。

I mean, you should be feeling that.

不是一直有，但有时候有，这有助于细胞更新通路，完全同意。

Not always feeling that, but times of that, that helps with these cellular renewal pathways, 100% agree.

这就像一种良性应激。

It's just, it's hormetic.

所以，剂量是多少呢？

So, like, what's the dose?

你的生物个体差异是什么？

What's the bio individuality of you?

与其说那些笼统的、简单化的说法，不如问：对你来说，多少剂量才是药？

Instead of this broad sweeping reductive statements, it's like, What's the dose that is medicine for you?

而且不要过度，任何激效效应，不管是桑拿、冷水浴、断食还是多酚，你都可以过度，但剂量决定它是药还是毒。

And not overdoing it, overdoing any hormetic effect, whether it be sauna, cold plunge, fasting, polyphenols, you can overdo any of that, but the dose makes the medicine.

对，而且，食物噪音确实存在，但关键是，刺激是什么？

Yeah, and also, like, food noise is a real thing, but also, like it's like what it what is the stimulus?

是什么线索在驱动你认为是食物噪音的东西？

What is the cue that's driving what you perceive to be food noise?

是不是因为你的台面上总是放着超级好吃的食物，厨房里随时都能看到，所以每次你走过厨房，看到食物，就需要真正的意志力——我们知道意志力是有限的——才能忍住不去大吃一顿。

Is it because you have, like, impossibly tasty foods out on your countertop at all times, like visible at all times in your kitchen so that whenever you walk by the kitchen, you're seeing the food and it's like, it takes real mental muscle and willpower, which we know is a finite resource to not wanna stuff your face with it.

还是说，食物噪音是在你只是想过好一天的时候出现的？

Or is the food noise something that's there when you're, you know, just trying to go go about your day?

但我觉得，对很多人来说，是因为我们总是把食物放在外面。

But like, I think for many people, it's that we have food out constantly