Is there any point becoming an illustrator now that AI is here? An interview with James Martin @madebyjames PART 1!

我确定他们没和恐龙一起生活过。

Definitely know they didn't live with dinosaurs.

所以，这是我知道的一件事。

So, that's the one thing I do know.

没有霸王龙追我们。

No T rexes were chasing us.

对。

No.

没有霸王龙像《侏罗纪公园》里那样在厕所里把我们吃掉，那是我最喜欢的场景之一。

No T rexes were eating us off the toilet like in Jurassic Park, which was one of my favorite

一直以来的幻想。

ever fantasy.

哦，肯定不是，前几天刚去世。

Oh, definitely not died the other day.

安息吧。

RIP.

哦，他确实死了。

Oh, he did.

哦，他确实死了。

Oh, he did.

那个家伙。

The chap.

那个家伙。

The chap.

那个我一下子忘了名字的人。

The man whose name I've immediately forgotten.

我完全知道你说的是谁。

I know exactly who you mean.

就是那个照顾孩子的男主角。

The lead man who was looking after kids.

侏罗纪公园先生。

Mister Jurassic Park.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

非常。

Very.

所以当我邀请你上这个播客的时候。

So when I invited you on, did this podcast.

你就说，只要我们能聊聊我们是怎么创造……

You were like, as long as we can talk about how we create...

我们怎么……

How we...

抱歉。

Sorry.

只要我们能聊聊我们是怎么帮助创意人士的。

As long as we can talk about how we help creative people.

我很想了解一下。

I would love to know.

你刚才简单提到了你的三管齐下的方法。

You mentioned briefly your three pronged thingy.

我很想听听这个。

I would love to know about this.

这是和帮助创意人士有关吗？

Is that to do with helping creative people?

我觉得这些都是相互关联的。

I think it's all intertwined.

我的意思是，帮助创意人士。

So I mean, helping creative people.

嗯，这可是个大话题，对吧？

Well, that is a big topic, isn't it?

那我们从哪里开始聊呢？

So where should we start with that?

我们从哪里开始呢？你有没有特别想聊的，还是我来说说我比较看重的一些事情？

Should we start is there any anything specific you want to talk about or should we talk about some things that I feel are important?

在我开始长篇大论之前，你脑子里有没有什么特别想说的？

Is there anything on the top of your mind before I go on a massive rant?

太好了。

Amazing.

那在我开始长篇大论之前，我脑子里冒出来的第一件事是——很多人都跟我提过，就是那种“哦，好吧”的感觉。

I mean, so the the first thing that popped into my mind before we go into the rant was this thing that I've I've had a lot of people mention it to me, you know, like, oh, okay.

就是那种“我真的很想当插画师，但是你知道……”

This is like, I really want to be an illustrator, but you know, what's...

“现在还有意义吗？因为AI什么的。”

Is there any point now because AI and blah blah blah.

而且我真的觉得，那些刚入行的新人，现在这个时期真的很奇怪，因为AI，我甚至不知道该怎么跟他们说。

And I, and I do feel that like people coming into the industry as industry babies, it's such a weird time and I don't really know what to even say to people because of AI.

但我那个过分乐观的脑子就会想，你知道吗？

But then my dangerously optimistic brain is like, know what?

别理它就行了。

Just ignore it.

但那样的话……

But then that's...

他们会得到……

They get the...

我得到的回应是，我不能就这么无视它。

I get the response of like, I can't just ignore it.

它就在那儿。

It's right there.

所以我很想听听你对这件事的看法。

So I would love to know what your thoughts are on the matter.

哦，天哪。

Oh, shit.

这可是个大问题。

It's a big matter.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

好的。

Okay.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

好的。

Okay.

不不不不。

No, no, no, no.

重要，非常重要。

I mean, important, incredibly important.

而且，也正是因为这个原因——抱歉，我刚刚为100位创意工作者建立了一个免费的导师计划，来帮助他们应对这个问题，因为我确实看到了一些挣扎。

And this is also why for the exact this exact right exact reason, sorry, I have just built a free mentorship for 100 creatives, which is going to help them navigate this exact thing because I do see a bit of struggle happening.

但不仅仅是新手或刚入行的人。

But, you know, it's not just the juniors or the newbies.

我看到整个行业从上到下都在受苦，这真是……

I mean, I'm I'm seeing an industry that from the top down is suffering, which is...

而且这不只是一个行业的问题。

And it's not just an industry.

这是全球市场、全球经济的问题。

It's it's a global market, global economy.

再加上该死的战争，还有各地乱七八糟的议会，生活成本不断上涨，这边一堆破事，那边一堆烂事。

So and then add a fucking war on top of that and, you know, fucking parliaments all over the fucking place and cost of living going up and fucking wank over here and shit over here.

这确实是个问题，对吧？

I mean, a problem, isn't it?

但我们还是得坐在这里，继续撑下去。

And yet we all just have to sit here and get on with it.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以我觉得首先要说的是，我们是有选择的。

So I think that's the first thing I would say is that we have choice.

我们可以决定自己怎么表现，以及付出多少努力。

We get to decide how we show up and the effort we put in.

有些事情是我们能控制的，有些事情是我们控制不了的。

There are things that are in our control and there are things that are not in our control.

我非常相信要专注于自己能控制的事情，比如我的努力、我投入的程度、我尝试的多少。

And I I'm a big believer on focusing on the things I can control like my effort, how much I show up, how much I try.

目前这些方面都还运作得不错。

And those things are working okay at the moment.

所以……

So...

但谁知道明天会发生什么呢？

But who fucking knows what's gonna happen tomorrow?

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以我很高兴……

So I'll glad...

我希望我们在这个节目里可以说脏话，因为我已经说了不少了。

I hope we're allowed to swear on this because I've been swearing a lot already.

不过话说回来，

But anyway, so

说了很多了。

Do a lot.

好的。

Okay.

所以，AI会带来很多变化。

So AI, you know, it's gonna make it's gonna change a lot.

我觉得我们已经看到它的影响了。

Think I think it's already we're already seeing its impact.

现在来回答这个问题，我该不该费这个劲？

Now to answer the question should I bother?

比如，如果我是一个年轻的插画师，我该做这个还是该做那个？

Like if if I was a young illustrator like should I do this or should I do that?

我仍然相信，你还是得做你想做的事。

I still believe you still got to do what you want to do.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

所以你不能因为不喜欢就去做别的事情，因为那样你很快就会厌烦。

So like you can't just go and do something else if you don't enjoy it because you're just gonna be sick of it.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know I mean?

所以我宁愿在我热爱的事情上挣扎，也不愿在我讨厌的事情上做得还行。

So I'd prefer to often struggle at the thing I love to do rather than do okay at something I really fucking hate.

所以你看，技术在变化，它会带来颠覆，但我觉得我们现在正处在一个转折点，尘埃开始落定。

So look technology is changing, it's gonna disrupt but I think we are coming to a point right now where you know, we are starting to see the dust settle a little bit.

但我们不知道那会是什么样子。

Now we don't know what that looks like.

两年前，有个叫AI的新鲜玩意儿，每个人都争先恐后地扑上去，优化、乱塞东西、搞砸一切。

Two years ago there was this shiny new thing called AI and every man and his dog was like jumping on it and optimizing, chucking in everything, breaking everything.

现在他们开始稍微收手了，因为这东西并没有像承诺的那样以承诺的速度实现那些功能。

And now they're starting to pull back just a little bit because it's not doing the things that they promised at the speed that it promised it.

所以我觉得我们现在看到的情况，还没到最终定论的时候。

So I think what we're seeing right now and it's not like finished.

我觉得在未来……

I think over the...

另外，我又不是预言家，所以请把我说的这些话……

Also I'm not fucking Nostradamus, so please take what I'm saying.

就当参考吧。

We'll pitch the salt.

但我认为接下来一年里，它会慢慢稳定下来一些。

But, you know, I think over the next year we'll see it kind of settle down just a little bit.

现在我已经看到有客户来找我，说他们做很多品牌形象设计或者标志设计的工作。

Now I have already seen clients come to me with like, oh, I do a lot of like identity work or logo work.

我收到很多用ChatGPT做的情绪板之类的东西。

I'm getting a lot of chat GPT, like mood boards and like all of this stuff.

所以，是的，关于AI的事情，基本上就是它让...

So, yeah, I mean, there's there's the thing with AI is essentially it's made...

这里有很多我想聊的东西。

I mean, there's so many things I wanna talk about here.

所以让我先试着回答这个问题，然后再深入讨论。

So let me just try and answer the question first before we get into the thing.

比如，对于那些做插画的朋友，我的回答是，是的，请继续做下去，因为我坚信有价值的东西永远会有价值。

Like my answer to your friends who are illustrators, I would say yes, please do it because I do believe in things that are valuable will always be valuable.

而且我觉得总有一天，一切都会变得千篇一律，那时候人们会寻找新鲜的视角、新鲜的作品或新鲜的想法。

And I think there will be a point where everything starts to look the same, where people will be looking for fresh perspective or fresh work or fresh ideas.

而这些会变得更加珍贵，因为能做到的人会越来越少，因为会有很多人放弃。

And those will just become more valuable because there'll be less people who can do it because there would have been a lot of people who give up.

我最大的观点是，如果创意人士真的放弃了，那AI就赢了。

And my big thing is is like AI wins if creative people do give up.

所以，所有创意人士，请不要放弃，这就是我的建议。

So all creative people, please don't give up is what I would suggest.

现在我有个想法，我把它叫做“平庸的引力”。

Now I have this idea that I'm calling the kind of gravity of average.

我最近在写关于这个的内容，系统本身就有一种让人变得平庸的能力，不是故意的。

And I was writing about this recently and systems in general have this ability to make people average, not by like on purpose.

我觉得这就像是我们已经生活在其中的某种结果。

I just think it's like an outcome of something that we're kind of already living in.

所以当我想到教育的时候，你懂我的意思吗？

So when I think about education, do know what I mean?

就像教育系统要承担的任务真的非常艰巨。

Like the educational system has a really, really tough job to do.

它得教育成千上万的人。

It's got to educate millions of people.

所以他们唯一能做的就是制定标准化的课程、评分体系，还有各种所谓的“最佳实践”。

So the only way they could do that is create standardised curricular markings, grade schemes, you know, and all these kind of best practices.

但这样一来，每个上学的人都会被用同样的标准、同样的方式来评分和评判。

But what that does is it means that everybody who goes to school gets marked on the same things and in the same way and judged on the same thing.

所以我们学会了在系统内取胜。

So we learn to win within a system.

但问题是，这让很多人变得一模一样。

But the problem is it makes a lot of people exactly the same.

专业最佳实践也是如此，比如创意人员都用同样的流程，那自然看起来都一样。

And it's the same with like professional best practices, like creatives having all the same process, you're naturally gonna look the same.

算法。

Algorithms.

哦，看，这个被推荐了，现在它火了，然后每个人都在做同样的事，只是稍微有点不同。

Oh, look, this is recommended and now it's trending and now everybody's doing the same thing, just a slightly different version.

所以“平均引力”就是所有这些个体系统实际上把人往中间拉，而中间越来越大。

So what the gravity of averages is that all of these individual systems are actually sucking people towards the middle and the middle is getting bigger.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

问题是，当中间变大，平均值变大，竞争更激烈，预算被压缩，想要脱颖而出就更难了。

And the problem is when the middle gets bigger, average gets bigger, there's more competition, budgets get shrunk, and it's more difficult to stand out.

而且这来自两端。

And that comes from both ends.

所以底线在上升。

So the floor is rising.

所以那些，比如说，以前不太有能力、做不了事的人，现在也到了中间水平。

So people who, let's say, weren't as competent, weren't able to do stuff, they are now in the middle.

他们现在可以给电脑下指令，就能营造出自己很能干的样子。

They can now prompt ask a computer and they can build the perception of somebody who is competent.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

所以底层的人被拉到了中间。

So they the bottom is being risen into the middle.

但我也从另一端看到，我以前觉得特别出色、四五年前很突出的人，现在都跳上了这趟优化列车，想更快、更高效，结果也被拉回了中间。

But also what I'm seeing from the other side is that the people that I used to look at who were exceptional, who were like stand out like four or five years ago are now all jumping on this optimization train to try and be quicker, to try to be more speedy, And they're being sucked back into the middle.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

所以那些曾经很出色的人也被这股引力拉下来了，因为他们为了跟上节奏、追求速度，都让AI替他们写东西。

So the people that were once exceptional are also being dragged in by this gravity because through this need to keep up and be speedy, they're getting AI to write all their shit.

他们甚至不再在自己帖子下面评论了，也不再发表什么独特或个人的见解，因为都让电脑代劳了。

They're not even commenting on their comment on their posts anymore, they're not even like saying anything unique or individual because they're getting the computer to do it.

所以那些以原创性和个性著称的人也被卷进来了。

So the people that used to be known for their originality and their personality have also been sucked in.

所以不只是中间层的人留在原地。

So it's not only the middles just staying here.

这个群体越来越大，因为两边的人都被吸进来了。

It's getting bigger because from both sides, people have been sucked into this thing.

这有个概念叫霍特林定律。

So there's this thing called Hotelling's Law.

我就说我先走了。

I'm just saying I'm off.

我现在走了。

I'm off now.

我到处走走。

I'm going around

在房子里。

the house.

我很享受这个。

I'm enjoying that.

我在这儿。

I'm here.

你就是为了这个来的。

You're here for it.

那很好。

That's good.

所以倒杯茶，咱们准备开始吧。

So get a cup of tea because let's strap in.

我们要大干一场了。

We're going wild here.

有这么一个人，叫哈罗德·霍特林，他是个……

So there is this there's this chap called Harold Hotelling, and he was a...

他是个经济学家。

He was an economist.

他有个理论，说企业在相互竞争时，会自然而然地趋向于同质化，而不是差异化。

And he had this theory that businesses when they're in competition with each other naturally drift towards sameness rather than differentiation.

所以你看任何加油站，或者在美国的老高速公路上。

So if you go to any service station or you look at, you know, in America, the old, highways.

你看……

And you look at...

有很多照片可以看到，比如麦当劳、汉堡王。

There's, like, loads of pictures that you can see where you've got, like, McDonald's, Burger King.

所有快餐连锁店都挤在大概300米的范围之内。

All of the fast food chains are all within, like, 300 meters of each other.

所有加油站，七个不同品牌都聚在一起，因为大家都想开在别人旁边，本质上就是想抢别人的顾客。

All the petrol stations, seven different brands are all together because they all want to be in the same place as everybody else's because they want to try and nix some of the other people's customers, essentially.

所以哈罗德·霍特林提出了这个观点。

So Harold Hotelling, he suggested this.

想象一下，比如你……

Imagine like you...

他有一个特别妙的理论，是关于一条长长的海滩的。

He had this kind of a wonderful theory about a long beach.

想象一条长长的海滩，两端各有一个冰淇淋摊。

So imagine a long beach with two ice cream vendors on each end.

对吧？

Alright?

然后海滩上有很多想吃冰淇淋的人，但他们彼此之间的距离都一样。

And then on that beach, there are humans who want ice cream, but they're all equidistant.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以这个人在这头，那个人在那头。

So this person's this end, this person's this end.

这里和那里的人数是一样的。

You got an equidistant amount of people here and here.

这个家伙……

What this guy...

比如说，蓝色和红色的那两个。

Well, let's say the blue one and the red one.

蓝色那个会想，如果我稍微往中间挪一点，说不定就能抢走红色那边几个顾客。

What the blue guy goes and does is goes like, well, if I move slightly closer, I'm actually gonna maybe start to nick a few of the red guy's customers.

红色那个看到了，就会想，等等。

And then the the red guy sees that, and he goes, wait a minute.

你要是往前挪，我也得往前挪。

If you're moving forward, I'm gonna move forward.

结果就是他们俩都往中间靠，直到再也挪不动了，因为再挪就担心顾客被抢走。

And what happens is they gravitate towards the middle until they can't move away from each other anymore because then they're worried about losing customers.

这基本上就是霍特林定律。

And that's essentially Hotelling's Law.

我觉得我们现在正大规模地看到这种现象，尤其是像有多少……

And I think we are seeing that on a mass scale right now, especially with like how many...

我不想叫它们“跟风广告”，因为它们不是跟风广告。

I mean, I don't wanna call them knob ads because they're not knob ads.

它们只是在做显而易见、可预测且合乎逻辑的事情，那就是模仿别人都在做的事。

They're just doing the obvious predictable logical thing, which is copy what everybody else is doing.

所以你会看到所有大公司都在往AI上砸大钱。

So you see all these big companies lumping mass money into AI.

你会看到每个LinkedIn上的教练、网红都在搞AI聊天机器人、AI工具、AI这个那个的。

You can see every LinkedIn coach fucking influencer building an AI chatbot, AI tool, AI this.

所以这甚至都不……

So it doesn't even...

这甚至都不是必需的。

It's not even needed.

他们根本没从中赚到钱。

They're not making any money out of it.

他们这么做只是因为觉得能省时间。

They're just doing it because they think they can save time.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

但问题是现在他们都长得一样。

But the problem is now they all look the same.

现在他们听起来也都一样。

Now they all sound the same.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do you know what I mean?

他们没什么独特之处。

There's nothing unique about them.

比如，每天都有新的AI玩意儿出来。

Like, every single day, there's this new AI thing.

但我真正感兴趣的东西，恰恰跟这个完全相反。

But the thing I'm attracted to is like totally the opposite of that.

所以我的理论是，我提到霍特林法则，是因为我个人认为，机会不成比例地流向那些有明显差异的人。

So my theory, the reason I mentioned Hotelling's Law is because I personally believe that opportunity disproportionately flows towards recognizable difference.

我的意思是，也许霍特林先生想告诉我们的是，机会其实在边缘地带。

So what I mean by that is that maybe what mister Hotelling was telling us was that the opportunity for people is actually on the outside.

如果所有人都被吸引到中间，那机会可能就在这边。

If everybody's being sucked in towards this, maybe the opportunity is over here.

我觉得这正是有创造力的人的优势所在，他们有技能、有头脑、有专业知识、有创造力、有不可预测性，能够把边界再往外推一点，因为那些涌向中间的人显然没有这些。

And I think this is where creative people have the skills, the brains, the know how, the creativity, the unpredictability to push the edges a little bit more because all these people who are gravitating towards the middle clearly don't.

所以这就是我想说的。

So this is what I'm saying.

想想看……

Think in...

我觉得如果我们能坚持一下，我想说，那些为了追求速度、随大流、听网上那些所谓的“巴里”的话而涌向中间的人，有80%到90%其实根本不认识那个巴里。

I think if we can just hold on, I think I would say 80 to 90% of those people who have been sucked into the middle for the sake speed, following the crowd, doing what Barry on the Internet says that they should do even though they don't even know Barry.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

我向所有的Barry们道歉。

I apologize to all Barrys out there.

可怜的Barry。

Poor Barry.

然后我会坐在那里后悔，心想，靠。

You know, then I'll sit there and regret it and go, fuck.

就像，我建立的名声，我建立的社区，已经……

Like, the reputation I've built, the community I've built is...

已经被我的懒惰侵蚀掉了。

Has been eroded away by my laziness.

因为我觉得这就是……

Because I think that's the...

我觉得……

I think that...

而且我不觉得……

And I don't think...

我觉得什么……

I think what...

就像我说的，关于新鲜感，我会带来……

Like I said, like, about novelty, I'll bring...

回到新鲜感这个话题，因为新鲜……

Come back to novelty because novel...

新鲜感真正有趣的地方在于，当它消退之后，剩下的只有你是否真的在乎。

The really interesting thing about novelty is that when it wears off, the only thing that's left is whether you give a shit.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

所以一旦AI的新鲜感消退，一旦自己创作插画的新鲜感够了，一旦自己做logo的新鲜感够了，一旦开发第七十五个没人想要的破应用的新鲜感够了，人们就会继续去做正事了。

So once the novelty of AI wears off, once the novelty of creating your own illustrations is enough, once the doing your own logo is enough, once the building your seventy fifth app that nobody fucking wants is enough, People are just gonna get on with shit.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

因为，对。

Because Yeah.

比如，他们可能是……

Like, they might be...

他们现在做是因为新鲜，不是因为真的想做。

They're doing it now because it's novel, not because they want to.

但等到他们为了营销、为了工作、为了赚钱不得不做的时候，他们就不会做了。

But when they have to do it for their marketing or for their work or to make their money, they're not gonna do it.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

因为他们搞不定。

Because they're not gonna be able to get it right.

他们没法让AI做出他们想要的东西。

They're not gonna be able to do the thing they want it to do.

所以你看。

So look.

这个话题我能聊上几天。

I mean, I could go on for days about this.

所以长话短说，坚持住，因为情况会变好的。

So long story short, hold on because it's gonna get better.

坚持住。

Hold on.

就像你之前说的，我觉得这比一半的战斗还重要，长期坚持才是关键。

And it's like you said earlier, I think like it's more than half the battle, the long game.

如果你能坚持下去，时间就像成功中最神奇的因素之一，对吧？

Like, if you if you can carry on, time is like one of the most magical ingredients in success, isn't it?

只要…

Just be...

一直在那里，一直做下去，对。

Still being there and still doing it Yeah.

多年。

Years

我觉得这是…

I think it's...

时间的问题在于它是有限的。

The problem with time is it's finite.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

它是个永无止境的东西。

It's a never ending thing.

我觉得那可能是……

And I think that's probably the...

也许是对那些重度投入AI的人最大的卖点之一。

Maybe one of the biggest selling points for the people who are diving heavy into AI.

听着，我不是反对AI。

Look, I'm not anti AI.

我只是非常支持人类。

I'm just very pro human.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

我在某些方面会用它……

I use it in ways...

我的意思是，对我来说它很好用，你懂我的意思吗？

Mean, it's great for me, do you know what I mean?

某种程度上是的，因为当我散步的时候，我可以跟它说话，它会帮我存下所有东西，我就能围绕我的想法和思路进行对话。

To some degree because when I'm on a walk, I can talk to it and it stores all my shit and I can just have a conversation around my ideas and my thoughts.

而且如果我有……

And if I've got...

如果我……

If I...

大家都知道，我有点上瘾。

I'm a bit of an addict, as we all know.

所以如果我找到一个线索，我现在能很快地跟下去。

So if I find a thread, I can follow it really quickly now.

我其实……

I'm actually...

对于整天基本上一个人坐在办公室的人来说，有个对象可以交流想法是很好的。

For somebody who sits in their office all day pretty much by himself, you know, it's great to have somebody or something to bounce their ideas off.

但我会在觉得有用的时候才用它，没用的时候就不用。

But I've I bring it in when I think it's useful and not when it's not.

而且我越玩越发现，它并没有帮我成为我真正想成为的那个人。

And the more and more I play with it, the more and more I realize it's it's not helping me become the person I necessarily want to become.

你知道，它确实能帮我处理一些特定的任务。

Know, it helps me do with some certain tasks.

如果我在跟客户通话，我会用我的AI录音工具，直接拿到转录文本，而不是自己做笔记，因为做笔记的时候我会分心，忘记对方在说什么。

If I'm on a client call, I'll get my little AI recording thing will be in there and I'll be able to just get the transcript out of it rather than having to make notes because when I make notes, I get distracted and forget what the person's talking to me about.

所以像这样的小事对我来说真的很有帮助。

So little things like that have been great for me.

但我觉得，当我们谈到要在这个行业里待得够久，还有时间的问题时，问题是很多人现在都在过度优化。

But, you know, I think, yeah, when we sort talk about staying in the game long enough and and the time thing, the problem is I think what a lot of people are doing is they're they're over optimizing now.

他们试图优化一切。

So they're trying to optimize everything.

前几天我看到一个特别搞笑的事情，是关于史蒂文·巴特利特和《CEO的日记》的，他讲到他早上必须给他的狗做冷水浴，就为了让自己完全优化好，去应对所有要做的事情。

I saw this hilarious thing the other day about Steven Bartlett and the diary of a CEO, and he was talking about how he must come cold plunge his dog in the morning just to be fully optimized for all the stuff he has to do.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do you what I mean?

但是，你可以花太多时间在优化上，结果你根本没在真正做那件该死的事情。

But, like, you can spend so much time optimizing that you're never actually doing the fucking thing.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

这也是另一面，对吧？

That's the other side too, isn't it?

就像，是的，有些事情是……

It's like, yeah, there are certain things that are...

我有个小说法，我一直在琢磨，就是“自动化那些可预测的，人性化那些有意义的”。

I've got this kind of little saying that I've been playing with which is like automate the predictable, humanize the meaningful.

比如像接待客户、发合同、给客户发提醒、开发票之类的，这些都可以用AI帮我自动化。

So anything like onboarding clients, sending out contracts, reminders for my clients, invoices or whatever it is, that's all stuff that AI could help me automate.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do know I mean?

因为那是可以预测的。

Because it's predictable.

有固定的时间和日期，还有一套流程。

Has a time and it has a date and there's a process.

搞定，完事。

Bing bang bosh.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do know what I mean?

但任何有意义的事情，我还是会亲自来做。

But anything that is meaningful, I still humanize.

所以工作、创意、想法，这些都还是来自我自己，因为那也是我最享受的部分。

So the work, the creativity, the ideas, they all still come from me and because that's also where I have the most fun.

但就像我说的，我觉得我们看到的问题是过度优化这些东西。

But like I said, I think the problem we're seeing is the over optimization of stuff.

所以，如果我把所有事情都自动化、都优化了，那我就会剩下很多时间。

So well, if I automate everything and I optimize everything, I'm gonna have all this time left.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

因为大家都知道时间是有限的，而且，谁不想多陪陪自己的狗、孩子、老婆、老公、伴侣或者别的什么呢？

Because they know the time is finite and hey, don't we all want more time with our dog, our kids, our wives, our husbands, our partners or whatever it is?

当然想了。

Of course we do.

但我觉得让我担心的是那种过度优化。

But I think the worry is for me is the the over optimization.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do know what I mean?

因为我觉得我们不应该像——我觉得人类不应该变成品牌。

Because I don't think we're supposed to be just like I don't think humans are supposed to be brands.

我觉得我们不应该把一天中的每一刻都优化掉。

I don't think we're supposed to optimize every part of our day.

我就是觉得那样对我来说太不人性了。

I just don't think that is not not human for me.

我又不是机器人。

I'm not a robot.

我说，还是得把闲逛找回来。

Bring back dilly dallying, I say.

闲逛？

Dilly?

太对了。

Fucking right.

闲逛。

Dilly.

我得把这个记下来。

I'm gonna write that down.

我好久没听到这个词了。

I haven't heard that for a while.

磨磨蹭蹭。

Dilly dally.

前几天我说了句“tickety boo”，结果有人问我：“这他妈是什么意思？”

I said tickety I said tickety boo the other day, and somebody was like, what the fuck does tickety boo mean?

这跟磨磨蹭蹭是一个级别的。

It's right up there with dillydallying.

绝对是。

Definitely.

是吧？

Isn't it?

太喜欢了。

Love that.

我也喜欢你讲的关于“做个怪人”的力量。

I mean, I love you talk about the power of being weird as well.

我觉得这也是我们“好船”里会聊到的话题。

And then I think that's something that in a good ship, we talk about that as well.

就是拥抱你的古怪之处。

Like embrace your weirdness.

这是你的……

It's your...

这是……

It's...

我不想说这是超能力，但这就是让你与众不同的东西。

I don't wanna say a superpower, but it's it's the thing that differentiates you.

而且这很容易做到，因为这就是你自己。

And it's just so easy to do because it is you.

这不像穿别人的小一号的毛衣，因为如果你只是做自己，拥抱自己的古怪，你基本上不会出什么大错。

It's not like trying on somebody else's too small jumper because if you're just yourself and you're just, you embrace your own weirdness, you can't really go far wrong, think.

而这是人工智能还没有……

And that's something that AI has not...

我觉得它做不到，因为它只是把所有东西都同质化了。

I don't think it can do it because it's just like homogenizing all the other things.

是的。

It's yeah.

这本质上就是规模的汇聚，对吧？

It's this convergence of scale, isn't it essentially?

而且我觉得……

And I think the...

再说，当我们谈到，好吧，我们是想帮助创意人才被选中，为自己创造更多机会，这确实是我们想多聊的。

I mean, again, like when we talk about, okay, so we're trying to help think just thinking about how we help creative people get chosen and build more opportunity for themselves, which is definitely something we wanna talk more about.

但当我们谈到这种独特之处时，你懂我的意思吗？

But when we talk about the weirdness, do do know what I mean?

对我来说，这种独特之处来自几个方面。

Like the weirdness for me comes from a few things.

它来自你的个人品味和你喜欢的东西，你明白吗？

It comes from your personal taste and the things you're into, do you know what I mean?

这些可能都是你独有的，还有你拥有的东西。

Which are probably yours and the things that you own.

但你的独特之处可能也来自你花时间相处的人、你吸收的东西、你经历过或者喜欢经常去体验的事情，比如你感兴趣的那些东西。

But they're also your weirdness probably comes from the people you spend your time with, the things you absorb, the experiences you've either gone through or enjoy going through regularly, like the things that you're into.

我觉得这些，因为我总是从品牌或者声誉建设的角度去想，你的经历、你的故事、你经历过的事情、你看世界的方式、你的观点、你稍微不同的视角，这些都是非常强大的东西。

I think those, when I because I obviously always think about it from like a brand perspective or a reputational building perspective, like your experiences and your story and the things that you've gone through, the way you look at the world, your point of view, the way you see things slightly differently, they're incredibly powerful things.

问题是我们总是被告知我们错了，我们做得不对。

The problem is we're continuously told that we're wrong and we're not doing it the right way.

所以我们试图隐藏其中一些东西，只做和谈论那些我们知道可能会被大众接受的事情。

So we try to hide some of those things and only do and talk about the things that we know you know might get us accepted by the crowd.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

因为那是另一种人性，比如归属感。

Because that's another human thing like belonging.

这也是几千年前的事情，如果我们太突出，可能会被赶出部落，然后被恐龙吃掉。

That's something that again thousands of years ago if we stood out too much we'd probably be kicked out of the tribe and get eaten by a dinosaur.

约翰又把恐龙带回来了。

John, I mean, bringing back dinosaurs.

但你明白我的意思吧？

But you know what I mean?

所以融入群体就是生存之道。

Like so fitting in was survival.

约翰，再看看现在的社交媒体，所有这些融入的应用，你得这样做才酷，你的朋友都在做，所以你也应该做，社交媒体，还有TikTok之类的。

John, I mean, and again, like now we look at the social media, the application of all of this fitting in, you've got to do this to be cool, this is what all your friends are doing, so you should do it, social media, all this stuff, TikTok and all the rest of it.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do know what I mean?

如果你不这么做，你就是异类。

If you're not doing it, you're an outlier.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do know what I mean?

或者如果你太古怪，就不会被接受，这个世界非常两极分化。

Or if you're too weird, you're not gonna be accepted and the world is very polarizing.

所以不幸的是，大多数人隐藏的那些东西，首先，如果你一直做自己，它们会让你非常快乐，不是吗？

And so the things unfortunately that most people are hiding are the things, you know, firstly, they'll make you really happy if you're yourself all the time, won't they?

但其次，这些也是让你的工作变得非常有趣的东西。

But secondly, they're the things that make your work very interesting.

它们让你变得非常有趣。

They make you very interesting.

而且我觉得在一个越来越缺乏人情味的世界里，做真实的自己是一种非常非常强大的能力，如果你能做到的话，而你是可以做到的。

And I think in a world that's becoming less human, I think being your own human is a very, very powerful ability if you can do it, which you can.

你只需要

You just have to

去做。

do it.

就是

Which

听起来，你会对那些可能感到……的人说什么？

sounds What like would you say to people who are maybe feeling...

比如如果有人因为害怕被拒绝，或者甚至只是感觉被拒绝，而不敢做自己，因为你非常开放，愿意分享你的故事和一切。

Like if somebody's feeling a bit scared to be themself because they're scared of that rejection or even perceived rejection, because you are so open and talk about your story and everything.

我敢肯定你，而且你自己也说过，你一直把那些早期的虐待之类的事情藏在心里，整个青少年时期都是这样。

Like I'm sure you, and you even said that you kept it to yourself, like the early abuse and things, you kept it to yourself through your teenage years.

是什么改变了你，让你愿意公开分享呢？

What changed to make you share openly?

我很好奇。

I wonder.

我不知道答案。

I don't know the answer to that.

说实话，我真的不知道。

If I'm totally honest.

我想我开始和别人分享的原因，可能是因为我对自己做了很多功课。

I think maybe the reason I started to share with others was because I did a lot of work on myself.

我觉得我到了一个足够舒服的阶段，明白那不是我的错，尤其是创伤那部分，我一直觉得我有点绕来绕去。

And I think I got to a point where I was comfortable enough that I understood it wasn't my fault, especially the trauma side of it, that I thought I've always believed like I'm kind of going around the houses here a little bit.

但首先，我相信我开始分享是因为我对自己足够接纳，才愿意去分享。

But firstly, I believe I started sharing was because I was comfortable with myself enough to share.

但我是通过大量的心理咨询、大量的努力、大量的阅读，以及试图理解我的大脑是如何运作的，才做到这一点的。

But I did that through a lot of counseling and a lot of work and reading a lot and trying to understand how my brain ticks and all the rest of it.

所以这是其中一方面。

So that was one thing.

但还有另一方面，就是整个社群的那一面。我认为，因为我无意中建立起来的那个“巨兽”——这完全是偶然的，从来都不是有意的。

But there's the other side of there's the other side of the community of everything which is I believe because of the beast I've built purely by accident it was never intentional.

我觉得我其实有点——我在找什么词来着？

I think I actually think I have a bit of what's the word I'm looking for.

不是义务。

It's not obligation.

这个词完全不对。

That's totally the wrong word.

但我觉得我有一种责任，而且我有能力去影响别人。

But I think I have a responsibility to and I have the ability to reach people.

而且对我来说，一直以来都非常重要的是，要用正确的方式去影响别人。

And I think it's always been for me very, very important to reach people about the right things.

很明显，尤其是在社交媒体上，总是“我我我我我”，总是“赢赢赢赢赢，成功成功成功成功”，但我一直努力保持真实，所以我谈过我和妻子在试管婴儿上的挣扎，谈过成瘾问题，也谈过，你知道的，性虐待。我做这些不是为了博取同情，而是为了帮助那些和我有同样挣扎的人。因为如果我能勇敢地把这些公之于众，面对那么多人，我希望他们也能去跟他们的妈妈、爸爸、咨询师或朋友聊聊他们可能经历过的事情，因为我知道这对我来说有多大的力量。

It's very clear that on social media especially it's always quite me me me me me and it's always win win win win success success success success but I've always tried to tried to be quite real with everything so I've talked about ivs struggles with my wife, I've talked about addiction, I've talked about you know obviously that the sexual abuse that I don't do that for sympathy I do that for trying to help somebody else struggle with what I struggle with because if I can be brave enough to put it out into the world to that many people I hope that they can then go and speak to their mom or their dad or their counselor or their friend about maybe something they had been through because I know how powerful that was for me.

所以，说实话，我尽量用自己的声音，这样别人也能稍微发出他们的声音。

So I try to use my voice so others can use theirs a little bit if I'm totally honest.

所以，是的，我觉得这……

So yeah I think it's...

我觉得你得对自己感到自在。

I think you've got to be comfortable with yourself.

但再说一次，我们谈过要设计自己的路，成功是你自己的路径。

But again, we talked about design your own way, success is your your path.

这不是能急于求成的事情。

That's not something that you could rush.

我不能就说“勇敢点，去做吧，别抱怨了”，这是网上有些人会说的，但那没有帮助。

I can't just go just be brave, go fucking do it, stop being stop being a whinge bag, Which is what part of the internet would do because it's not helpful.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know I mean?

每个人的起点都不一样，那些喜欢发表意见的人，他们也是从自己十年前、二十年前、三十年前的样子走过来的，那时候对他们来说可能更难。

Everybody's starting from a slightly different place and all of these people who tend to offer a lot of opinions, they are doing it from a very different version of themselves than what they were ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty years ago, where it was probably a lot more difficult for them.

所以，我一直坚信要了解自己是怎么运作的，然后继续往前走。

So, yeah, I think I've just been always a big believer in just understanding how I work and moving forward.

我们都有点不完美，对吧？

I mean, we're all a little bit broken, aren't we?

我们每个人心里都藏着一些别人不知道的事。

We've all got some sort of something going on that people don't know about.

我觉得越多的人愿意坦诚面对这些，这个世界就会越好。

And I think the more people that are honest about that, I think the better the world would be.

但是，嘿，这样可不利于塑造好的品牌形象，也不会增加我的粉丝、影响力和互动量。

But hey, it doesn't build good brand perception and it doesn't build me audience or my reach or my engagement.

所以我得一直假装一切都很顺利，因为如果我在网上表现得太真实，会让我看起来不好。

So I've got to pretend that everything's going right all the time because it's gonna make me look bad if I pretend I'm real online.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

其实恰恰相反。

It's the opposite really.

因为听到真实的故事，看到一个人完整的样子，真的特别鼓舞人心。你会觉得，哇，这太励志了。

Because it's so inspiring to hear a real story and like see somebody as a whole human, a human human is like, oh, that's inspiring.

这个人经历过生活的种种，现在成功了，还定义了自己心中的成功，并且愿意分享出来。

This person has gone through life stuff and is successful and defining their own version of success and talking about it.

他们不需要那种包装得光鲜亮丽、假模假式的东西。

They don't have to be this polished slick bullshit thing.

对，完全同意。

Yeah, exactly.

但话说回来，凡事都得有个平衡，对吧？

But I mean, but again, there has to be a balance doesn't there?

因为，你知道，我确实……

Because, know, I do...

我相信每件事都有它合适的时机和场合。

I believe there's a time and a place for everything.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

我确实这么认为，因为作为企业家、商人和普通人，我尽量把这两方面都控制在一定程度内。

I do believe that, you know, because I again, as the entrepreneur businessman and as the human, I try and keep them both under control to some degree.

但举个例子，我在网上看到很多设计师吐槽他们的客户，以此来和其他设计师建立联系。

But like for an example, you know, I see a lot of designers online, you know, talking about how much they hate their clients to connect with their fellow designers.

我就觉得，你真是个白痴，兄弟。

And I'm like, you're a fucking idiot, mate.

你的客户现在都在看着你，心想，是啊。

Like all your clients are now looking you and say, yeah.

你觉得他们看不到吗？

I mean, what do you think they're not watching?

另外还有另一方面，这也是很现实的问题，比如倦怠、压力和焦虑。

And then there's also the other side, which is, you know, which is a very real thing, like burnout and stress worry.

我觉得这些确实是很重要的话题，但不应该占据你所有的社交媒体和你的整个叙事，因为再说一次，如果你一直告诉那些可能向你购买服务的人你总是倦怠、压力大、没法工作，那你就接不到活儿了。

And I think these are really important things to talk about, but they shouldn't be things that take up your entire feed and your entire narrative because again, like there's you're not getting work because you're telling the people who might buy off you that you're burnt out all the time and you're stressed and you can't do any work.

所以如果我是客户，看到这些，我会想，你知道吗？

So if I'm a client and I'm looking at that, I'm going, do you know what?

我会去找别人。

I'm gonna go with somebody else.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know I mean?

所以我觉得时机上得有个平衡。

So I think there has to be a balance at the timing.

我觉得说话得有个理由。

I think there has to be a reason to talk about stuff.

再说，我也不想告诉别人该怎么做。

And again, don't wanna tell people what to do.

我总会很小心自己说什么、在哪里说，因为我觉得做什么都得有目的。

I would always be very wary of what you are saying and where, because I think there has to always be intention.

我觉得展示自己总是好的。

I think it's always good to show yourself.

但我觉得这又是社交媒体个人品牌的一个陷阱，很多人都有点掉进去了，就是觉得得边做边分享，把自己的故事讲出来。

But I think this again, this is probably the social media personal brand trap that people have fallen into a little bit that they've got to share, you know, build as they go, share their story.

但我觉得这实际上在某种程度上害的人比帮的人还多。

But I think that's actually harming more people than it is helping to some degree.

所以，就是这样吧。

So yeah, that's that.

说得太好了。

It's brilliant.

就像分享，是不是从伤疤而不是从伤口上分享？

I mean, like sharing from, was it the person you share from the scar and not the open wound?

我觉得当你经历了一些事情，处理好了，想明白了之后。

I think after you've gone through something and you've processed it and figured out what you like.

从那个角度去分享总是更容易的。

That's always an easier place to share from.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

我觉得这也是一个很好的看待方式。

I think that's a that's a lovely way to look at it it as well.

这是一个很好的看待方式。

It's a lovely way to look at it.

但确实，我觉得重要的是要记住，如果你想建立业务，建立客户群，就要

But yeah, I think it's just important to remember that if trying to build a business, you're trying to build a client base, just

非常

be

有意识、有目的地去做你正在做的事情，因为那基本上会有所帮助。

very intentional and deliberate about the things that you're doing because that will help essentially.

是的，太棒了。

Yes, genius.

对，你想做什么？

Yeah, what are you trying to do?

那就去做吧。

Do that.

对，对，我们打算分享

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do, we're gonna share

把工作做完，我们现在就想做这个。

the work Scrap out right we wanna now.

而且这变得难多了，因为大家都在说每小时发二十条短视频，你懂我的意思吧？

And like, it's made a lot more difficult because people talk about posting 20 reels an hour, do you know what I mean?

加里·维前几天说，你每周得发五百条内容。

Gary V said the other day, you've gotta be posting 500 pieces of content a week.

我当时就想，去你的吧，加里，你有七十五人的团队帮你做内容。

And I'm like fuck you Gary You've got a team of 75 people creating your content.

这种说法

Like the narrative

就是，我想说他简直有个全职的电视台。

is I was gonna say he's got like a full time mega TV.

是啊，我知道。

Yeah, know.

再说，我也不认识Gary V。

And again, I don't know Gary V.

他可能是个好人。

He's probably a nice guy.

但这种不断强调表现的说法，

But like this constant narrative of like performance.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

我觉得它带来的问题比解决的问题还多。

It's it's causing more problems than it's fixing, I would suggest.

我喜欢你的使命，为全世界提供免费的设计教育。

I mean, I love your your mission, free design education for the world.

所以我不知道你是否想在结束前稍微聊聊这个，因为我觉得那会是一个很好的激励。

So I don't know if you wanna maybe just talk a little bit about that before we wrap up because I think that would be a nice inspiring.

我觉得我们可能得再录一期这样的对话，我才能真正试着去帮助培养人才。

I feel like we're probably gonna have to do another one of these talks where I actually try and help create people.

但这更像是一回事。

But this is more of a thing.

这个话题有点绕远了。

This kind of got around the houses a little bit.

不过对我来说，为所有人提供免费的设计教育一直是我努力的方向，尤其是过去五六年。

But yeah, I mean, for me, you know, big free design education for the lot is something I've always tried to lean into, especially over the last kind of, let's say five or six years.

但在过去十八个月左右，我稍微调整了这个使命，因为创造力比设计更广泛。

But I've somewhat refined that mission a little bit over the last eighteen months or so because creativity is bigger than design.

所以我试着，我本质上是个创意人，我和很多人一起跨多个创意领域工作。

So I'm trying to kind of like I'm a creative person through and through and I work a lot with people through multiple creative disciplines.

显然，我有设计师的头脑，但我也经营创意企业。

Obviously, I have a designer's brain, but I do run creative businesses.

所以我把这个使命转向了帮助人类创造力塑造世界。

So I've kind of moved that mission towards essentially helping human creativity shape the world.

这就是我现在在做的，就像我们聊过的，帮助人们设计自己的道路，找到自己的成功版本，我通过很多方式来实现这一点。

That's kind of the mission I'm on now and helping like we've talked about helping people design their own way and helping people find out their version of success and I do that through many means.

但也不仅仅是教育，我也帮助我的客户，帮助我的合作伙伴，同时也通过这些帮助我自己。

But also like it's not just education, I also help my clients, I also help the people I partner with, I also help myself through all of these things as well.

我总是试图利用人类的创造力，这里“人类”这个词很重要，因为我觉得我们作为创意人确实有能力主宰世界。

Like always trying to use human creativity, human being a very important world there because I think we do have the power to rule the world as creatives.

所以这很重要。

So that's important.

为此我有一个三步计划，第一步就是，如果我能做到这三件事，我的使命就能实现。

But I've got a three step plan with that and step one is like I can make the mission happen if I do these three things.

第一，在创意行业赢得最受信赖的声誉之一。

So number one is earn one of the most trusted reputations in the creative industry.

第二，为他人创造非凡的机会。然后第三，创造现实世界的影响力。

Number two is build extraordinary opportunity for others And then number three is create real world impact.

我想这些会按某种顺序依次实现。

And those will happen in some sort of sequential order I would imagine.

但正如我所说，我所做的一切，无论是为了工作室里共事的人，还是我辅导的人，或者我为读者写书、写邮件、写博客、做课程，都是为了帮助他们为自己创造非凡的机会。

But everything I am doing, like I said, whether it's for people I work with in the studio or the people I coach or the people I write books for or emails for or blogs for or courses for whatever it is, it's to try and help them build extraordinary opportunity for themselves.

我教的永远都是我自己做过、现在正在做的事情，而不是可能十五年前有效、但当时世界完全不同的那些东西。

I'm always only ever teaching from stuff that I've done and I'm doing today rather than potentially what worked fifteen years ago when the world was very, very different.

所以我非常相信要亲力亲为，这其实很简单。

So I'm a big believer in eating my own dog food which is basically just dumb.

如果我告诉别人去做某件事，我自己也必须做到，而不是光说不练。

If I'm telling other people to do it, I have to do it myself rather than like just tell people to do stuff and not do it myself.

这有点像——

That's kind of

有诚信是好事。

Integrity is good.

我想从这个世界得到更多。

I want more out of the world.

对，我觉得这是建立声誉的一部分。

Yeah, think, I mean, it's a part of reputation building.

我觉得我们得再来一轮，因为我还有很多不同的话题可以聊，我真心相信这些能帮助创意人士建立声誉，成为客户更放心的商业选择，为自己创造更多机会。

I think we are gonna have to have another round two of this because I've got all of these different things that we can chat about which I truly believe will help creative people build their reputations and become a safer commercial choice for their clients and build more opportunity for themselves.

那我们不如来个连续两期。

So maybe we do back to backs.

也许这可以作为这期节目的开场。

Maybe this could be like the intro to the twat.

然后下周我们可以做第二期，真正聊点有用的东西。

And then maybe like next week we can do round two and we'll actually dive into something helpful.

你觉得怎么样？

Should we do that?

我完全没问题。

I'm up for that

如果你也愿意的话。

if you're up for that.

那就这么定了。

Let's do it.

就这么办。

Let's do it.

因为我觉得

Because I think

那就这么定了。

Let's do it.

好的。

Okay.

我……

I've...

我现在有太多想寻求帮助的事情，但我知道我们没有时间一一处理。

There's too much that I want help with right now that I know we don't have time for.

所以这几乎可以算是一道开胃小菜。

So this can almost be the amuse bouche.

那是法语。

That was French.

吊吊胃口。

Quiet the appetite.

法语说得真烂。

Bad French.

所以，是的，我们再来一轮，然后我们可以连续发布它们。

So, yeah, let's let's do a round two and then we can just release them back to back.

但下一轮我们可以确保它非常明确，这就是你应该做的。

But the next one we can make sure that it's very like, this is what you should do.

对。

Yes.

这些行动

The actions

因为这就是我正在做的

because this is what this is what I am doing

我喜欢这个。

I love it.