"You really don't have to go to art school!" An interview with Carly Kuhn

只卖印刷品。

Only sell prints.

不要给印刷品编号。

Don't number your prints.

要给印刷品编号。

Do number your prints.

装裱起来卖。

Sell it framed.

不要装裱起来卖。

Don't sell it framed.

宠物肖像画很糟糕。

Pet portraits are terrible.

永远不要提供这种服务。

Never offer them.

它们很尴尬。

They're embarrassing.

宠物肖像画其实很赚钱。

Pet portraits are very profitable.

对，我记得也是这么回事。

Yeah, I remember the same thing.

我觉得吧，

I think like

总的来说，好像没人真正知道什么对这个行业才是对的。

an overall takeaway is like, no one really knows what the right thing is for the industry.

它一直在变。

It's always changing.

没有唯一的标准。

There's not one way.

你当时是不是一直同时有份兼职？

Did you did you always have a part time job at the same time?

还是说，你辞掉电视台的工作时，心里想的是，这下该专心画画了？

Or when you quit the TV job, you're like, this is illustration time.

对。

Yes.

我当时就只做插画。

I was just doing the illustration.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

所以确实就是接了很多零散的活儿，这里一点那里一点。

And so it was just definitely a lot of, like, random jobs and things here and there.

然后一直在想……

And trying to think...

再说，我觉得我并不是一直在试图重新发现自己或者改变方向，但我觉得我……

Again, I I feel like I was just constantly not trying to rediscover myself or change what I was doing, but I feel like I've...

我总是在琢磨下一步该做什么，试着加一些新东西，尝试不同的事情。

I was always trying to figure out what was next and try adding things and doing different things.

当我上线网站的时候，我觉得还得同时做一个访谈系列，那真的太多了。

And when I launched the website, I thought I had to also have an interview series, which was just way too much.

然后到了2020年，疫情爆发的时候，我开始画这些肖像，就是那种开车经过时画的肖像。

And then in 2020, when COVID happened, I started doing these portraits, like these drive by portraits.

我把这个消息发布出去了。

I put it out there.

就说，如果有人想要，比如在洛杉矶地区，我就会开车过去，然后待在车里。

Was like, if anyone wants in like the Los Angeles area, I went and I would drive and stay in the car.

我丈夫开车，我拍照，然后画他们，再把数字版发给他们，特别酷。

My husband would drive and I'd take a photo and then draw them and then send them the digital so cool.

那时候特别受欢迎。

Was very popular then.

对，确实，那真是一段疯狂的时光。

Yeah, it was really, it's like such a crazy time.

我开始在Instagram上做“和Carly一起画画”的活动。

I started doing draw with carly on Instagram.

后来我还和Skillshare合作，在疫情期间开了一门课，因为大家都待在家里，所以那也算是那个特殊时期的一部分。

I ended up doing a Skillshare class like with Skillshare that happened during COVID because everyone was home and so that was part of that was one moment in time.

然后我……

And I...

当我……

When I...

所以那时候已经到了2020年，我住在洛杉矶，但我和我丈夫在疫情期间订婚、结婚，然后怀上了第一个孩子，我们决定搬到离家人更近的地方。

So that was now we're, like, up to, like, twenty twenty, and I was living in Los Angeles, but my husband and I got engaged, married during COVID, and then got got pregnant with our first kid, we decided to move closer to family.

我们搬到了迈阿密，那时候发生了很多变化，住在一个新城市，还怀着孕，我觉得自己又在经历一次身份认同的困惑，比如我到底想做什么？

And we moved to Miami when there's all sorts of changes happening, living in a new city, pregnant, and I think I was going through another identity, like what do I wanna be doing?

当时我重新推出了那个壁纸项目，因为之前做过，但是……

And I launched at the time the wallpaper because I had previously done it, But...

我甚至试过用另一个名字来运营，叫The Cartelier，这也是我现在Substack的名字。

And I even tried to, like, have it under a different name, which is The Cartelier, which is now my substack name.

但又一次，你二十多岁的时候，现在到了三十多岁，要当妈妈了，你会想，我想让别人怎么看我？

But, again, it was just you're in your twenties, and you're now you're in your thirties, and you're becoming a mom, and you're like, how do I wanna perceived?

你正在经历所有这些变化。

And you're going through all these changes.

然后我开始尝试做壁纸，但这也是一个完全不同的领域和世界。

And I started experimenting with the wallpaper, but that's also like a whole other beast and a whole other world.

我觉得这一切都像一团模糊，尤其是如果你有……

And I feel like it's all such a blur, especially if you have...

我有了我的第一个儿子。

I had my first son.

然后在某个时候，我开始……

And then at a certain point, I started to...

我得到了更多……

I was getting more...

一些更传统的工作，比如插画、编辑，或者和餐厅、品牌合作，一些小项目。

Some different work that was a little bit more traditional, like illustration, editorial, like working with restaurants or brands, little things.

所以我觉得那时候我需要一个经纪人。

And so I felt like I needed an agent at that point.

因为我觉得像是Soho House联系过我。

Because I think like Soho House had reached out to me.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

这个……

This...

我觉得我……

I feel like I'm...

我需要找个人。

I need to find someone.

然后我就联系了一个经纪人，她其实只是打算帮我处理一下手头的事情，因为我自己也不太确定。

And so I was connected with an agent, and it was more just like she was gonna help me for a little bit, like, incoming stuff because I wasn't really sure.

但那是个很大的……

But that was like a big...

有两件事对我来说是转折点，一个是找了经纪人，另一个就是iPad的出现。

There were two things that became like game changers for me, like, part, getting an agent and also the introduction of the iPad.

有意思。

Interesting.

我再说一次，我不是专业训练的插画师，所以我一直……

I, again, wasn't a trained illustrator, so I've...

我都是手绘的。

I do everything by hand.

所以我觉得这也是为什么我没有真正去探索传统的插画师领域，因为我觉得自己做不到，因为我都是手绘的，不知道怎么去编辑修改。

So I think that's also why I didn't really explore the traditional illustrator world because I didn't, like, feel like I could do it because I do everything by hand, and I wouldn't know how to, like, edit something.

所以当我拿到iPad，开始学习的时候，我发现，哦，我可以手绘，扫描进去，然后在iPad上编辑。

So when I got the iPad and I started, like, learning, it's, oh, I can hand draw things, scan it in, and then edit on the iPad.

感觉……

And it feels...

就是……

It's...

对我来说，它们是相通的。

For me, they're interchangeable.

不是完全一样，但就是，用笔在纸上画和用Apple Pencil在iPad上画，感觉非常相似，都是你的手在引导线条。

Not interchangeable, but there's, like, the pen to paper versus, like, a Apple Pen on the iPad have such a similar, like it's still your hand guiding the line.

现在真的很神奇，因为我记得早期你还在用iPad，但现在说实话有时候很难分辨出来。

It's amazing now because I remember that like early days you were like, iPad, but now it's honestly hard to tell sometimes.

我觉得如果你多练习，而且我在上面花的时间越多，感觉就越流畅。

And I think if you again practice with it and the more time I've had on it, the better that it feels very seamless.

所以我觉得这就像适应成为妈妈的过程，又一次经历身份的新浪潮，然后意识到我作为插画师的世界比广义艺术家的概念更让我有共鸣。

So I think it was like settling into like becoming a mom and again, having this like a new wave of like identity and realizing that the world of being an illustrator, I connected much more to than maybe this idea of a broad artist.

但我……

But I...

我也可以在这里停一下，因为……

And I can pause here too because

我觉得我……

I feel like I'm...

这里面有太多东西了，因为，你知道，这……

There's so much because it's, you know It's

太迷人了。

fascinating.

我特别想听听经纪人是怎么改变局面的，因为在Good Ship里我们听到过很多不同的故事。

I'm super excited to hear about how the agent was a game changer because we see so many different, we hear so many different stories inside Good Ship.

所以有时候人们会有这样的想法：我只需要找个经纪人。

So sometimes people will, they have this idea like, I just need to get an agent.

那是我和梦想之间唯一的障碍，就是经纪人。

That's the one thing between me and my dreams as an agent.

有时候我会说，我不知道，别太勉强，因为你可能会遇到一个糟糕的经纪人。

And sometimes I'll be like, I don't know, don't try too hard because you might have a shit agent.

然后我觉得你可能是我听过的第一个说这是改变游戏规则的人。

And then I think maybe you're one of the first people actually that I've heard to say that was a game changer.

所以我想知道，是因为价格方面的帮助，还是别的什么？

So I wanna know, is it because of the pricing help or yeah.

我让你来说。

Is I'll let you.

我觉得……

I think...

你知道我要说什么吗？

You know what I will say?

因为我觉得，这些年听了很多东西，我听到那些话的时候，心里就想，唉。

Because I I feel like over the years listening to things, and I would hear that, and I'm like, ugh.

我没有经纪人，所以我完蛋了，大概这种感觉。

I don't have an agent, so I'm screwed kinda thing.

但某种程度上，我也有过……

But in a way, I had...

确实有其他人帮我，但他们不一定是最合适的。

I did have other people helping me, but they weren't necessarily the right fit.

所以我经历了这个过程。

So I went through this.

我最后找到的那个经纪人，其实是我的第三个经纪人，可以这么说。

The agent that I got was my third agent, if you will.

但前两个，都是有人说，哦，我可以帮你。

But the first two were someone was like, oh, I can help you out.

然后第二个人可能是在不同的领域工作，所以其实不太……

And then a second person maybe worked in more of a different field, so it wasn't really...

而且因为我Instagram上的内容，我收到了很多主动找上门的工作，但他们不一定能帮我争取到工作，也不太了解这个行业。

And it was I got a lot of incoming work because of my Instagram, and they weren't necessarily procuring work and also didn't really know the world.

但我想说的是，我觉得直到我开始和她合作，我才真正准备好迎接一个经纪人。

But what I'll say is that I don't think I was ready for the agent until I started working with her.

而且我们一开始并不是正式的合作关系。

And we didn't even work in an official capacity at first.

她说她非常乐意帮我处理那些主动找上门的事情，但我觉得我当时其实不太清楚自己想要什么。

She was like, I'm totally happy to help you with the stuff that's incoming, but I don't think I really knew what I wanted.

所以我觉得很重要的一点是，说想要一个经纪人来开启你的职业生涯，或者那会改变一切，这种想法……

So I think it's important to say like, saying you want an agent to kick off your career or that's gonna change everything.

我觉得你其实不需要已经很有名。

I think it's like you have to not be established.

我觉得你得知道自己想要什么，因为经纪人不能替你解决这个问题。

I think it's like you have to know what you want because the agent can't, like, solve it for you.

有一段时间，我也是这么想的。

I think for a while, I felt the exact way.

我就想，要是能有个经纪人，他们就能帮我搞定一切。

I'm like, if I just get an agent, they can just do it for me.

但我觉得我需要这些年去尝试、去摸索，搞清楚自己到底想要什么，这样当经纪人和你合作的时候，你才知道自己要什么，什么会答应，什么不会答应。

But I think I needed all those years to test things out and figure it out and have a clear sense so that when the agent and you are working together, you know what you want, like what you will say yes to, what you won't say yes to.

所以斯蒂芬妮就是我的经纪人。

So Stephanie is my agent.

我记得我们正式合作之前，大概一年前就聊过一次。

And I think we had a conversation like a year before we ever worked together.

我记得我跟她说，对，我不太做那种传统的插画。

And I remember saying to her like, yeah, I don't really do illustration like traditional.

而且说实话，我当时也不太清楚自己能做什么，但我觉得那是我自己的不安全感在作祟。

And again, I didn't really know the capacity, but I think it was like my own insecurity.

我不知道我

Don't know what I

如果你这样看你的作品，Carly，这就是插画。

was If you're looking at your work like this, Carly, this is illustration.

你在说什么呢？

Like what are you talking about?

现在我觉得我的经纪人和经纪公司已经扩展了他们的服务范围，因为插画师和艺术家做的事情远不止传统插画。

Think now my agent and the agency has expanded to what they help you with because illustrators and artists do so many different things beyond just traditional illustration.

所以他们能帮我处理一些事情，比如他们帮我处理了Paperless Post。

So they can help me with something like they helped me with the paperless post.

我做了……

I did...

我和Paperless Post有一个婚礼系列。

I have a collection with paperless post or weddings.

婚礼是个大项目。

Weddings was a big thing.

所以现在，说到它如何帮助的部分。

And so now, like, to the part where it says, like, how does it help?

我觉得尤其是当时我的人生阶段，而且，我，我有孩子，很忙，但我也完全不清楚插画师应该怎么定价。

I think especially where I was in my life, and, like, I I have kids and I'm busy, but I also did not understand the full scope of what pricing should be for an illustrator.

这其实有两方面。

There's kind of two sides to it.

一方面是实际创作作品，另一方面是使用权。

There's the actual creation of the work, and then there's usage.

而使用权才是赚钱的大头。

And usage is where a lot of the money is.

所以这些年我确实被坑过，因为以前我自己接活的时候，我就想，哦，我就是给你菜单或者帖子画几幅插画而已。

So I definitely got screwed over the years because when I was just doing it for myself, I'm like, oh, I'm just drawing a couple of illustrations for your menu or for this post.

但如果他们用一周、一个月、三个月、一年，或者永久使用，那价格差别可大了。

But if they're using it for a week versus a month versus three months versus a year versus forever or whatever, that's a very different price.

这些我都是跟经纪人合作之后才知道的。

And that's something I didn't know until I started working with my agent.

那是一个……

And that was a...

那差别真的非常大。

Was definitely a, you know, a huge difference.

而且我觉得，我是家里的老二，又是个敏感的艺术家，还特别想讨好别人。

And I think just I'm a middle child, a sensitive artist, I'm a people pleaser.

当你为自己谈判的时候，这……

And when you're negotiating for yourself, it...

不是每个人都跟我性格一样，但我就是……

Not everyone has the the same personality as me, but I'm...

直接说“不行”对我来说很难。

It's not good to be like, no.

我需要更多钱。

I need more money.

我就会说“对不起”。

I'm like, sorry.

你们是个很棒的品牌。

You're a great brand.

我需要它。

I need it.

而且我觉得很长一段时间，我都在想，我需要这个。

I think there was also for a long time, I was thinking, I need this.

这就像是他们在帮我一个忙，算是曝光机会，我觉得这在刚开始的时候确实很重要。

This is like, they're doing this as a favor for me, the kind of exposure part of it, which I think is definitely important in the beginning.

哦，确实是这样，对吧？

Oh, it's just isn't it?

而且，我知道我的职业生涯阶段可能和某些听众不一样，但我确实认为有偿工作……

And this is, again, I know I'm at a different point in my career than maybe some people that are listening, but I do think paid work is...

你应该为报酬而工作，而为自己谈判这件事确实很难。

You should be working for pay, and that's a hard thing to just negotiate for yourself.

但这些年我确实做到了，而且我可能没有通过经纪人拿到的那么多，再说，他们……

But I did over the years, and I probably didn't get as much as I would have if working for an agent, which, again, it's...

他们懂得更多，而且他们也很专业。

They know more, but also they're skilled.

当品牌方跟一个已经做了很久的代理公司合作时，代理公司跟他们解释为什么某个东西要花那么多钱，他们更容易接受。

And when someone in a brand's dealing with an agency that's been around for a while and they explain to them why something costs what it does, they're more receptive to that.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

这对我来说是个很大的领悟。

That was a big one for me.

我意识到，与其我去求他们给我工作，不如明白他们其实非常需要插画带来的技能，然后我就想，其实我手里是有筹码的。

Think that realization that rather than me begging them to give me work, realizing that they were actually crying out for the skills that illustration brings to the table and then being like, actually, I've got some leverage here.

我不需要只是说，太感谢了。

I don't have to just be like, thank you so much.

然后去讨好他们，我其实可以说，对，这个价格就是这样。

And then kissing their I'm actually like, yes, it'll cost this.

然后他们就会说，好吧。

And they're like, okay.

但关于授权和使用范围的问题，Tania 特别在意。

But the licensing, the usage thing, that's something Tania is really hot on.

然后插画商业俱乐部就深入探讨了这个问题。

And then the Illustration Business Club goes into it.

这是我确实需要更多了解的事情，因为说实话，这些年来我一直有点懒。

It's something that I really need to look into more because I've been like admittedly lazy about it over the years.

因为这就是……

Because this is what...

我觉得在性格上我们也有点相似。

I think similar personality wise as well.

我有点觉得，这听起来好复杂。

A bit of me is just like, that sounds complicated.

干脆就……

Let's just...

定个价，然后完事。

This is the price and then we're done.

但我真的很想有一天能多读点这方面的内容。

But I would love to actually read more about it one day.

不是。

No.

这确实很有意思。

I mean, it is fascinating.

而且我们一开始聊到的，或者我忘了是不是在录音之前聊的，就是插画行业的定价真的很随意。

And what we were talking about in the beginning, or I forget if this was before we sort of record, but just how pricing also for illustration is so random.

有时候你会觉得那些特别高端的时尚品牌肯定有钱。

And sometimes you think the really fancy fashion brands are gonna have the money.

但通常他们反而没有。

Usually they don't.

反而是那些更……

It's the more

而且我觉得，在我做品牌活动的时候，往往是那些更大的客户最抠门，最会说，哦，其实这就是费用。

And I also think like when I was doing brand activation stuff, it tended to be the bigger clients that would be the most stingy and the most, oh, actually, this is the fee.

然后你就会想，这比我收的还少。

And you'll be like, that's less than I charge.

所以我们得想办法解决这个问题。

So we're gonna have to figure something out here.

而你

And you

必须决定什么对你来说值得。

have to decide what's worth it for you.

比如说，如果像古驰这样的品牌想找你合作，但费用不如你给老海军做项目高。

If like a Gucci or something wanted you to do something with them and the fee wasn't as high if you were to do something with Old Navy, let's say.

但你也许愿意……

But you're maybe willing...

这其实都是时间和经验的问题，慢慢摸索出你想要什么。

And and this is all, like, time and learning and figuring out, like, what you want.

我觉得很重要的一点是，要明确你愿意在哪些项目上降低收费，因为你觉得这对你的职业发展有帮助，而不是单纯为了钱就答应，就是那种情况。

I think that's really important too to say what you're willing to say less of a fee on because you do think it will help your career versus just saying yes to something for money, like that kind of whole thing.

你觉得有没有一部分是你后来才慢慢搞清楚的……

Do you think there is a part that you get to figure out once...

如果是你自己做决定，对吧？

If it's on your own, your decision, right?

比如你会觉得，这真烦人。

Like, you're like, this is annoying.

这可不是我通常拿到的报酬。

This is not what I'm usually getting paid.

但如果这真的能帮你增加曝光度，当人们跟我说，哦，这会发给我们几十万订阅者，或者有不同类型的工作。

But if it is going to actually help exposure, When people would say to me like, oh, this will be going out to our hundreds of thousands of subscribers or there are different types of jobs.

然后我心想，好吧，这种工作我以后还想继续接吗？

And I thought to myself, okay, is this a type of job I'm gonna wanna continue to keep getting?

因为如果不是的话，那就应该以钱为主。

Because if not, then it should be about money.

这是为了帮助我的事业，这样我就能接那些更偏向独立电影、能拿奥斯卡那种品牌的工作，那些更符合你风格的工作。

This is to help my career so that I can take on the ones that are maybe more of the indie film that wins the Oscar kind of brand, the ones that feel more aligned with your style.

我觉得，你得确保自己清楚到底想要什么，这样才能决定要不要少接一些工作。

I think, like, you you wanna make sure you know exactly what you want so then you can make the decision to take on a job less.

而且一定要跟他们说清楚这一点。

And make sure to tell them that too.

就说，通常我的收费会高一些，但也许我们可以在营销方面商量一下，或者在这方面想点有创意的办法。

Be like, usually my fee is higher, but maybe we can work something out on the marketing end or try to get creative in that way.

还有一点也值得考虑，如果一个工作没成，那就有时间做自己的事情了，你

There's always the thought as well, like if a job doesn't go through, that opens up time to do your own thing and you

可以去做自己真正感兴趣的事，而不是去帮别人实现他们的梦想，他们自己很兴奋，却不愿意给你合理的报酬。

can work on something you're really excited about versus powering somebody else's dream that they're really excited about, but won't pay you the right amount for.

我觉得这真是……

Think it's such a...

虽然有点老生常谈，但确实像那句话说的，一扇门关了，另一扇门就开了。

It's another like cliche or whatever to say like when one door closes another open or whatever that phrase is.

但我也觉得，有时候我没得到某个机会。

But I think it's also, there were times that I didn't get something.

回头想想，我会觉得，谢天谢地，可能我当时还没准备好，或者不太合适。

And I look back, I'm like, thank God, a, I maybe wasn't ready, wasn't the right fit.

可能占用了时间，然后别的事情就来了。

It maybe ate up time and then something else came along.

我不是说那个，那个，那个……

And I'm not like who who who

或者什么的。

or whatever.

想不起来那个词了。

Can't think of the word.

谁会呢？

Who will?

不过也可能是“呼”这样的。

It could be hoo hoo as well, though.

我们可以把它带回来用。

We can bring that into circulation.

呼。

Hoo hoo.

不是那种“呼”啦。

It's not hoo hoo.

我也不一定就是那种“呼”的人。

I'm not necessarily that hoo hoo.

但我觉得工作上的事，该成就会成。

But I feel like with work stuff, like, does pan out how it's supposed to.

你得相信。

You have to trust.

比如你可能会想，哦，我真的很想要那份工作，但我真的觉得那不是命中注定的。

Like, you might be like, oh, I really wanted that job, but I really do feel like it it wasn't meant to be.

就像你说的那个经纪人的事，你得先经历很多试错，搞清楚各种事情，找到自己的声音，然后才准备好有经纪人。

Like Even what you're saying about the agent, like, weren't ready for an agent until you'd gone and done lots of trial and error and figuring out different things and finding your voice.

就像，它……

Like, it's...

它有自己的节奏，对吧？

It's got its own thing going on, hasn't it?

生活就是这样。

The world life.

没错。

Exactly.

所有事情都是这样。

With kind of everything.

让我看看我的笔记。

Let me let me peek at my notes.

所以我想这是关于壁纸的事情。

So guess it's wallpaper thing.

还有，我喜欢你提到的这一点……

And also, what I love about this is that you're mentioning...

我不知道

I don't

这是不是故意的，但你有很多收入来源。

know if this is on purpose, but you've got lots of income streams.

我就觉得，哦，太好了。

And I'm like, oh, yes.

真不错。

So good.

因为我觉得作为创意工作者，拥有多个收入来源真的很重要。

Because I think as creatives, it's so important to have more than one, basically.

对。

Yes.

因为……

Because of...

会有很多起起落落。

There's so many dips and troughs.

都是低谷。

They're both troughs.

高峰和低谷。

Peaks and troughs.

在低谷期或者忙碌的时候，如果你手头不止一件事，就能让过山车平稳一些。

In in in come times or busyness times, if you've got more than one thing happening, you can smooth out the roller coaster.

这是有意为之，还是自然发展成这样的？

Was that intentional, or has it just evolved organically?

不是有意的。

It was not intentional.

我觉得就是……

I think it's just...

我相信很多听众也是这样，当你是个有创造力的人，肯定不是只想做一件事。

I'm sure a lot of people that listen are like this, that when you're creative, there's definitely not like one thing you want to be doing.

不管是身份认同的问题，还是纯粹的创作冲动，脑子里有太多东西，就想把它们表达出来。

And whether it's an identity thing or just creative, like you have so much going on in your brain, you want to get it out.

但我觉得，可能有一部分是有意的，比如我想做一些不一定那么赚钱的事情。

But I think that what's like, partly, like maybe part of it was intentional to be like, I want to be able to do certain things that don't necessarily pay as well.

所以我想有其他领域来支撑。

So I want to have other areas.

我觉得我喜欢插画的原因，也是我意识到我热爱自己做的事情的原因，就是因为它可以应用到很多不同的领域。

I think what I love with the kind of illustration and why I've realized I love just what it is that I do is because it can lend itself to so many different areas.

而且我觉得这不是把自己分散得太开，也不是分心。

And I think it's not spreading yourself too thin or not being distracted.

对我来说，它们其实是互相启发的，因为我脑子里有太多想法，有太多东西想创作。

I think it's for me, they all inform the other because there's so much going on in my brain, and there's so many things that I wanna create.

如果我在创作一个……

And if I'm creating an...

比如一个角色，或者画一朵花，不管是什么，它可能只是Instagram上的一张帖子，或者是一张邀请函。

Like, a character or I'm drawing a flower, whatever, and it may live as a post on Instagram or in, like, an invitation.

也许我不想让它只服务于那一个用途，但我……

Maybe it's, like, not wanting it to just be for that one thing, but I...

它也是一种媒介。

It's also one medium.

你在屏幕上看到的东西，和用在婚礼邀请函上的东西，是不一样的。

You're seeing something on a screen versus if it's for a wedding, it's on an invitation.

我觉得特别酷的是，我在做现场插画的时候遇到那些室内设计师，他们第一个说，哦，咱们做墙纸吧。

Like, I thought what was really cool, and I think I mentioned it when I was doing the live illustrations and I met those interior designers, and they were the first to be like, oh, let's do wallpaper.

其实我还有一个跟Soho House的合作，虽然最后没成，但我确实做了他们想要的那种定制墙纸设计。

And I actually think I had another job with Soho House, which didn't end up panning out, but I did the work where they wanted me to design, like, a custom wallpaper.

所以我觉得这两件事让我开始……

So I think those two things I started...

那也是……

That's also...

现在我在回想，你刚才问，这是不是有意的？

Now I'm realizing, like, kind of backtracking, and you said, was this intentional?

我觉得几乎是保持开放的态度，每次……

I think it was almost being open every...

我会收到各种各样的请求。

I would get requests for so many different things.

很多时候，我心里想，我不知道自己在做什么，但我会试着搞清楚。

And a lot of the times, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna try to figure it out.

然后我意识到，我的插画风格其实不太注重色彩，更多的是纸上水墨。

And I realized, like, my style of illustration is not so much color, and it was a lot of ink on paper.

我最近越来越喜欢用色彩了。

I've been doing more and more color lately.

但我记得设计壁纸的时候，我就觉得，哇，这完全是另一种感觉了。

But I remember when I was designing for wallpaper, I'm like, oh, this is taking on a whole different life.

而且挺酷的。

And it's cool.

比如，我可以用不同的方式添加色彩。

Like, I can add color in different ways.

在创意上，它只是……

And creatively, it just...

我真的很喜欢，而且画起来也完全是另一种体验，比如画一只小象，但那只小象原本只是发在Instagram上的。

I really enjoyed it and also just took on a different life drawing, like, one little elephant, but then that was just for Instagram, let's say.

结果突然之间，我就在创作一个图案，整个马戏团主题，最后还出现在了我儿子的婴儿房里。

Now all of a sudden, I'm, like, creating a pattern, and it's a whole circus theme, and it ended up being in my son's nursery.

而且它……

And it's...

然后突然间，你就在设计壁纸了，比如，我想怎么摆放这件家具。

Then all of a sudden, you're designing wallpaper with, like, how I wanna put this piece of furniture.

我觉得这里面有好几层原因。

And I think it's a couple of things.

从创作角度来说，这是我喜欢的。

It's like creatively, it's something that I like doing.

它能让你……

It allows you to...

我觉得这也让我作为艺术家成长了，尝试了新东西。

I think like having that also allowed me to grow as an artist and just try new things.

但反过来，我可能在设计壁纸时喜欢上某个元素，然后把它用到别的地方。

But then the reverse is I could be designing a wallpaper and then love something from that and use it in another capacity.

所以它们其实是互相启发的，而且我觉得只要不觉得被完全占据，有多条收入来源是好事。

So they're all, I think, informing the other, and I do think it's good to have different revenue streams as long as it doesn't feel like it's completely taking away.

壁纸这块还在摸索中。

The wallpaper is still...

经过反复试验，现在我终于在密歇根找到了一个合作伙伴，他会帮我处理商业方面的事情，让这个业务真正发展起来。

Has been a trial and error, and now I finally found a partner here in Michigan who's gonna help with the business side to really let it grow.

比如婚礼和一些品牌合作，确实在经济上帮助很大，过去几年我做了很多这类工作，有经纪人的帮助也确实很有用。

Like, weddings and certain brand stuff was definitely, like, financially, and a lot of that stuff that I was doing more of over the past couple years and having the help of the agent was definitely helpful.

所以，是的，这回答了你的问题吗？

So yeah, does that answer the question?

是的，完全回答了。

Yes, absolutely.

我觉得这个回答对其他有创意头脑的人来说很让人安心。

I think answers it reassuringly for fellow creative brains.

是的，这很有策略性，但你其实并没有刻意去增加收入来源。

Yes, it's strategic, but you weren't really time to implement some more income streams.

你只是跟着自己的兴趣和乐趣走。

You were just following on what was fun and interesting.

我知道你有两个小男孩，我想知道这对你的插画事业有什么影响？

I know you have two little boys and I wonder how has that impacted your illustration career?

因为你之前提到过，你在迈阿密的时候感觉身份发生了转变，现在你又搬回了密歇根。

Because I know you talked about you felt like an identity shift you were in Miami and now you've moved back to Michigan.

那你在时间安排和各方面，有没有找到合适的方式？

So have you found it, like in terms of time and things?

感觉怎么样？

Like how has that been?

我觉得当我第一次……

Think that when I first...

当我有……

When I had...

当我第一次当妈妈的时候，我从洛杉矶搬到了迈阿密。

When I became a mom for the first time, I moved from Los Angeles to Miami.

那时候正好是疫情期间。

It was COVID.

我谁都不认识。

I had no friends.

那段时间确实特别难熬。

It was definitely a really hard time.

但那时候我还是挺享受一些奢侈的。

But I was still like the luxuries.

我还能……

I was able...

你可以在任何地方画画，比如他们睡觉的时候，抓住那些零碎的时间。

You can draw from anywhere and little moments when they're sleeping.

但我觉得很多人都会说，当了妈妈之后当然会有身份认同的危机。

But I think a lot of people talk about, of course, like identity crisis when you become a mom.

当然，还有像找时间啊……

And, of course, there's stuff like finding time and...

给自己留点时间，然后慢慢摸索这些。

For yourself and figuring that out.

但我觉得在很多方面，当你为自己工作、自己开辟道路，而且没有固定结构的时候，那些年我并没有迷失。

But I think in a lot of ways, when you're working for yourself and you're creating your own path, like, and not having structure, I was not lost for all those years.

但当你……

But when you...

当我成为妈妈的时候，就像……

When I became a mom, it's like this...

你的时间变得如此宝贵，所以你不得不真正专注于，我想怎么花我的时间？

Your time becomes so much more precious, so you have to really focus, like, how do I wanna spend my time?

所以这反而让我一切都变得清晰了。

So it in a way crystallized everything for me.

更像是，我到底想要什么样的生活？

And it was more like, what do I want out of life?

我该怎么把我正在做的事情融入其中？

And how do I fit what I'm doing into that?

而我，当然，我……

And I, like, of course, like, I'm...

我有幸有人帮忙，有育儿支持，有家人，有支持，我知道不是每个人都有这样的条件。

You have the luxury of people helping me, and I have childcare, and I have family, and I have support, and I'm aware not everyone can have that.

但如果你有这样的能力，我觉得我知道自己想要什么。

But if you have that ability, I think knew what I wanted.

我想做一个亲力亲为的妈妈。

I wanna be a hands on mom.

我也想工作，而且这确实可以做到……

I wanna also work, and it's do...

我意识到那种宏大艺术家的想法，画画、做大事。

I realized the idea of this grand artist and painting and doing these huge things.

比如，人们会融入这些，但我知道我真正喜欢我做的事情，喜欢称自己为插画师的原因是，我可以在任何地方工作，这很重要，而且能够有孩子并平衡工作。

Like, people work that in, but I know that what I really liked about what I did and really like claiming being an illustrator is like I can really do it from anywhere, and that was important, and to be able to have kids and balance the work.

而且我觉得，我喜欢这件事也有帮助。

And I think it helps that I enjoy it.

我确实……

I've definitely...

我记得去年或者两年前，大概是12月12号，我的经纪人接到了一个知名品牌的请求，他们想让我画一些节日贺卡。什么？

I remember last year or two years ago, like, December 12, my agent got a request from, like, a big brand that they wanted me to do some, like, holiday card What?

在……

In...

周末。

The weekend.

我画得很快，这简直有点离谱。

And I work pretty quick, and it's, like, ridiculous.

但那个品牌我真的很喜欢，我就跟我丈夫说，你觉得……

But it was a brand I really liked, and I was like to my husband, what do you...

我觉得我必须答应。

Like, I I feel like I have to say yes.

他说，我们会想办法的。

He's like, we'll figure it out.

这甚至是在我们……

This was before we even...

在密歇根。

In Michigan.

他带着孩子们，我整个周末都在赶这个工作。

He took the kids, and I was, like, working throughout the weekend to do this.

这很疯狂，但你就是得想办法搞定，或者……

It's crazy, and you make it work or you...

我也不知道。

I don't know.

我……

I I...

但我觉得，再说一次，当了妈妈之后，当他们开始上学的时候，我内心有一部分……

But I think, again, like, becoming a mom, there was a part of me also when they started school.

我喜欢这种规律。

I like the structure.

作为一个没有规律的人，我喜欢，好吧。

As someone who doesn't have structure, I like, okay.

我送完孩子，然后回来，然后我有这么多小时，然后又得去接孩子。

I have drop off, and then I come back, and then I have this many hours, and then I have to do pickup again.

然后我回来，有人帮忙，这挺好的。

And then I come back, and I have help, which is good.

但，怎么说呢，那种感觉也挺……

But, like, in a weird way, that also...

我喜欢那样。

I liked that.

我喜欢现在有了规律的生活。

I liked having now structure.

而且我……

And I...

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得我就是爱当妈妈，我真的很享受这个过程。

I feel like it's just I love being a mom, and I, like, enjoy it so much.

所以我一直在琢磨，这些事到底要怎么安排，时间该花在哪里。

And so I'm just constantly figuring out a way of where is this all gonna fit in and where do I wanna be putting my time.

而且，我知道我已经做了十多年了，所以可能稍微有点余裕，能自己决定一些事情。

And again, I know I've been doing this for ten plus years, so I have maybe a little bit more of a luxury of getting to decide certain things.

然后我觉得，有了孩子之后，就像进入了一个全新的世界。

And then I think also just having kids, like, you're in a whole new world.

我觉得孩子的……

I think children's...

我刚第一次帮别人画完一本儿童书的插图，我觉得这可能就是我最初找到你们的原因之一，因为我从来没画过儿童书。

I just finished illustrating a children's book for someone else for the first time, which I think I was saying to you may have been one of how I found you guys initially because I've never illustrated a children's book.

我没受过这方面的训练，所以我就尽量多吸收，多了解那个领域。

I am not trained in this, so I was just, like, trying to consume as much as possible to, like, learn about that world.

但是，是的，我觉得有两个小男孩，两个孩子，在儿童插画的世界里，为孩子们创作东西，真的很有趣。

But, yeah, like, I I feel like having two little boys, two kids, like, in terms of, like, the children's illustration world and, like, creating stuff for kids, that's really fun.

我经常把他们说的好笑的话记下来。

I'm constantly writing down funny things that they say.

是的。

Yes.

而且你……

And you're...

我有很多儿童书。

I have so many children's books.

我现在也成了 vintage 儿童书的大收藏家，那完全是另一个领域。

I also have now become a huge collector of, like, vintage children's books, and that's a whole other good

那边有很多好东西。

stuff out there.

现在连卡通片都很好。

Even, like, cartoons now are good.

比如 Bluey 那些。

Like, blue y stuff.

我超迷的。

I'm obsessed.

我超喜欢这个。

I love it.

所以，嗯，我也不知道这算不算回答了你的问题，不过——

So, yeah, I don't know if that kind of answered that, but

算的。

it does.

而且我很喜欢这种颠覆性的说法，因为很多人一提到生孩子就说，我的事业完了，我的身份没了。

And I love that it flips on its head because a lot of people, they talk about having children and then they're like, my career is over and my identity is gone.

而你描述的正好相反。

And you're describing the opposite.

就像它让你更清晰了。

Like it crystallized.

他们真的特别会分清主次。

They're really good prioritizes.

对。

Yes.

你实际上想做什么？

What do you actually wanna do?

你有六个小时的时间，直到我回来。

You've got six hours till I'm back.

是的。

Yes.

随你便。

Do with it what you will.

然后你会说，哦，好吧。

And you're like, oh, okay.

哇。

Wow.

做什么

What do

我想做什么？

I wanna do?

没错。

Exactly.

而且我觉得，当你……

And I think also when you...

某种程度上，当你知道自己有很多时间时，你可能不会马上着手做某件事。

In a way, when you know you have a lot of time, you maybe don't get to something right away.

就像，在生孩子之前，时间多了反而是一把双刃剑。

Like, it's like a kind of double edged sword before having kids and having a lot more time.

但有了孩子之后，时间就被安排得更有条理了。

But it just structures.

这种结构能帮你更专注，当然，我知道我们的职业和那些传统职业很不一样。

It puts in that structure and helps you to focus a lot more, which again, I know it's like our career is very different than if someone is something more traditional.

如果是传统职业，可能会因为更难而面临身份危机。

They may have an identity crisis because it is a lot harder.

但如果你是在我们这个圈子里，我就不确定了。

But if you are in our world, I don't know.

我不想让大家害怕当妈妈，怕完全失去自我。

I don't want people to be scared of becoming a mom and completely losing her identity.

当然，这种情况可能会发生，但我认为有办法让它变得更好，我觉得对我来说就是这样。

And again, it might happen, but I think that there's a way it can make it even better, which I feel like it did for me.

对，确实。

Yeah, definitely.

我记得在我生活中就是这样，几乎可以说，如果我需要出差工作，那就是找育儿帮助和依靠家人的合理理由。

And I remember this is just like in my life, but it was almost like if I needed to go away for work, that is acceptable reason to find childcare and lean on family for help.

但如果我想出去纯粹为了放松，那就说不过去了。

Whereas if I want to go away for like just doing nothing, that's not acceptable.

有时候出差工作反而很放松、很有趣，我很享受我的工作。

It's almost like sometimes going away for work is very relaxing and fun and I enjoy my job.

然后我过一天回来，就会说，谢谢你，我的孩子。

And then I can come back a day later and be like, thank you my child now.

是的，很好。

Yes, good.

但话说回来，对于不喜欢自己工作的上班族来说，情况就完全不同了。

But again, think it's totally different for corporate people that don't like their jobs.

作为插画师，我们有幸能享受自己的工作。

As illustrators, we have the luxury of hopefully enjoying what we do.

是的，能享受自己的工作真好。

Yes, is nice that get to enjoy what we do.

对。

Yes.

但你有个特别令人兴奋的事。

But you have a very exciting thing.

你的书是已经出版了，还是很快就要出了？

Is your book out already or is it coming out very soon?

还有两周就出了，9月8号。

It's coming out in two weeks, September 8.

哦，那太让人期待了。

Oh, that's exciting.

这本书叫什么名字？

What's it called?

《角色观察：一位充满好奇心的艺术家的笔记》，这和我们刚才聊的观察主题很契合。

The Character Study Observations from a Very Curious Artist, fits beautifully into what we were talking about, the observations.

对。

Yes.

喜剧观察，绘画观察。

The comedy observations, drawing observations.

所以这个过程，我觉得大概花了两年半的时间，工作量很大。

So it's been, I think it was like a two and a half year process and a lot of work.

而且每一章都像是一个不同的地方。

And it's like each chapter is like a different place.

这就是我的观察世界。

It's my world of observation.

比如博物馆、公园、餐厅，还有时尚派对、农贸市场、海滩这些。

So it's like museums, parks, restaurants, like a fashion party, farmer's market, beach.

而且有点像……

And it's like some...

里面有很多是以前的作品，但也有很多新作品，就是配上我的一些小文字和观察。

It's a lot of archival work, but then a lot of new work of just, you know, with my little writings in and observations.

而且很难描述，它有点像那种咖啡桌书和礼品书的混合体。

And it's, like, hard to always describe it's like this hybrid coffee table giftable book.

它比较小，但有192页。

It's smaller, but it's a 192 pages.

而且它……

And it's...

它是红色的，所以很有

It's red, so it's very

节日的感觉。

like holiday feel.

他们有没有……

Do they...

那这就是目标吗？

Is that the goal then?

是不是像节日那种……

Is it like a holiday...

比如圣诞节的时候？

Like Christmas time?

不是。

No.

一抹红色一直是我的风格。

A pop of red is always just my my style.

只是碰巧感觉非常契合。

It just happens to feel like very aligns very well.

但我觉得他们……

But I think they...

确实感觉会是个不错的小礼物。

It definitely feels like it will be like a nice little gift.

而且就是……

And it's just...

太不可思议了，因为你刚出了书。

It's wild because you just had your book.

所以我就想，之前有那么多准备工作，还有那么多预订单，你得处理各种事情，然后……

So I'm like, there's so much work ahead of time, and there's all this preorders, and you gotta do all this stuff, and it's...

我……

I'm...

我差点忘了，现在它就要面世了，我特别期待……

I, like, forget that now it's just gonna live in the world, and I'm so excited just for...

看到人们拿着它，把它放在书桌上、咖啡桌上，甚至卫生间里。

To see people, like, hold it and have it on their desks and coffee tables and bathrooms.

我也不知道，随便什么地方。

I don't know, wherever.

就是那种……

Like it's such a

看到出版流程是怎么运作的，真的很神奇。

It's amazing to see how the publishing process works as well.

就像你提到的，时间线很长。

Like you've mentioned the long timelines.

想象一下，在2020年跟别人说你要写一本书，然后你说，是的，那时候你就知道要花六年时间。

Imagine saying to somebody in 2020, trying to do a book and you say, yeah, you'd known at that point, it would take six years.

你会觉得……

You'd be like

我不知道。

I don't know.

是不是很疯狂？

Isn't that wild?

这真是……

It's a

有点太长了，确实。

bit too long actually.

等到《咸狗和伙伴们》出版的时候，我其实都已经忘了那些故事讲的是什么了。

Let's say by the time Salty Dog and Pals came out, I'd actually forgotten what the stories were.

后来我再翻看的时候，才发现，哦，这些写得还挺好的。

Like, when I did relook at them, oh, yeah, these are good.

这是谁写的？

Who wrote these?

哦，是我和海伦写的。

Oh, it was me and Helen.

对，就是这样。

Just Yeah.

因为时间真的太长了。

Because it is so long.

海伦刚画完第二本书的插图。

And Helen's just finished the second drawings, the drawings of the second book.

我觉得他们打算明年出版，但那已经算是赶工，算是很快推出了。

And I think they're aiming to come out next year, but that's like rushing it and getting it quickly out.

所以就是年复一年，真是疯了。

So like just years and years, it's mad.

我想第一本书大概也是这样，你要么就是特别多……

I imagine like a first book probably too, and you're either so much...

就是说，因为不是这本书花了六年。

I mean, it's like, because it wasn't like the book took six years.

而是整个过程花了这么久。

It's like the the process of it all.

但挺疯狂的，因为我就想，好吧，我还想再写一本。

But it's crazy because I'm like, Okay, I want to do another one.

我正想说，你还想再写一本吗，如果……

You know, I was going say, do you want to do another one if

你享受这个过程的话？

you enjoyed it?

我享受。

I do.

我可能想接下来写一本儿童书。

I like I might want to do a children's book next.

我有个想法。

I have the idea.

而且你在课程里，所以你可以，你知道的。

And you're in the course so you can, you know.

对，我已经把故事写出来了。

Yeah, I have the stories out.

我只是……

I just...

有……

There's...

我……

I...

就是……

It's just...

我很喜欢那种，比如……

I love the idea of, like, the...

每个人都能拥有的东西。

Something that everyone can have.

就是……

It's...

我相信你也有同感，尤其是现场插画，就像我这些年做的那种。

As I'm sure you feel, especially live illustration, like, the stuff that I've done over the years.

很难……

It's hard to...

不是每个人都能得到壁纸、印刷品，或者亲临现场看插画。

Not everyone can get the wallpaper or the print or be it in a live illustration.

所以，能有一个每个人都能拥有、价格实惠、不那么珍贵、实实在在的东西，真的很棒。

So to have something that everyone can have that's affordable and it's not so precious and it's just like a tangible thing is really cool.

而且它也很持久，不是吗？

It's quite permanent as well, isn't it?

一本书。

A book.

哦，是真的。

Oh, it's real.

我不知道。

I don't know.

它是永久的。

It's permanent.

我就像，天哪，希望它像……

I'm like, Oh my God, hope it's like,

它不珍贵。

It's not precious.

就像，天哪。

It's like, Oh my God.

我希望每个人都喜欢它。

I hope everyone loves it.

我会把所有的链接和资料都放在节目说明里。

I'll put all the links and things in the show notes.

大家可以在那里找到你的书、你的壁纸、你的网站和你的Instagram。

People can find your book and your wallpaper and your website and your Instagram.

不过，能听到你的经历，以及你是如何在没有正规教育的情况下走上插画这条路，并成为一名全职插画师的，真的非常棒。

But it's been so good to hear about your journey and how you've come to illustration, a full time illustration career without a formal education.

因为我觉得很多听众听了都会觉得，哦，太好了。

Because I think so many listeners will be like, oh, good.

这让人很安心，原来不一定要去上艺术学校。

It's reassuring that you don't have to go to art school.

对，没错。

Oh yeah.

而且特别是像你们提供的这些资源，就像我说的，从我十年前刚开始做这行到现在，现在能用来自学的东西太多了。就算我已经做了十年，在童书这个领域，我还是会花很多时间看各种在线课程。所以我觉得你们分享这些真的非常好，而且现在能拥有这么多资源，可以自己教自己，每天学一点，做一点，这真的是一种奢侈。

And especially like with what you guys offer, like I was saying that when I started like ten years ago to now, what's available to just be able to educate yourself, even doing this for ten years, like in this area of like children's book and that world, like I just spend hours watching different like online courses, and so I think it's like really great that you guys share that, and I think that's a luxury that's available now today that there's so many resources that you can teach and just do it, do a little bit every day.

很高兴能邀请到你，Carly。

So good to have you, Carly.

很高兴

It was

和你聊天。

so great talking to you.