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欢迎收看恩典时刻节目，这是一个深入探讨我们日常挑战并帮助我们以实践方式学习信仰的基督教节目。
Welcome to the Grace Hour Show, Christian program that takes a dive into our daily challenges and helps us learn our faith in a practical way.
我是牧师保罗·安德拉诺尼斯，今天与牧师贾斯汀·沙勒一起在恩典时刻节目演播室。
I'm pastor Paul Andralonis joining pastor Justin Schaller here in the Grace Hour Show studio.
很高兴能来到这里，和大家进行本周的对话。
Excited to be here and have a conversation this week.
今天的对话围绕以C为中心的灵魂习惯培养展开。
The conversation is about developing habits of the soul centered around C.
S.
S.
刘易斯的著作。
Lewis's book.
今天我们将特别讨论顺服，但本周的主题围绕这句话展开：C。
And today we're going to talk about surrender specifically, but the theme of the week is centered around this quote from C.
S.
S.
刘易斯，出自《纯粹的基督教》一书。
Lewis, from the book Mere Christianity.
书中说：我们完全可以确信，完美的贞洁，就像完美的仁爱一样，绝不可能仅靠人类自身的力量实现。
And it says, We may indeed be sure that perfect chastity, like perfect charity will not be attained by any merely human efforts.
你必须祈求上帝的帮助。
You must ask for God's help.
即使你这样做了，很长一段时间内，你可能仍会觉得，给予你的帮助似乎微乎其微，甚至不如你所需。
Even when you have done so, it may seem to you for a long time that no help or less help than you need is being given.
别在意。
Never mind.
每次失败后，都要求赦免。
After each failure, ask forgiveness.
站起来，再试一次。
Pick yourself up and try again.
上帝首先帮助我们的，往往不是直接赋予美德本身，而是赋予我们不断重新尝试的力量。
Very often what God first helps us towards is not the virtue itself, but just this power of always trying again.
无论贞洁、勇气、诚实或其他任何美德多么重要，这一过程都在培养我们灵魂的习惯，而这些习惯更为重要。
For however important chastity or courage or truthfulness or any other virtue may be, this process trains us in habits of the soul, which are more important still.
它治愈了我们对自己的幻想，并教导我们依靠上帝。
It cures our illusions about ourselves and teaches us to depend on God.
我的意思是，这段话非常丰富，里面包含了很多内容，但你有什么看法呢？
And there's, I mean, that quote is so, so rich and there's so many things in there, but what do you have to say?
关于这个话题，以及关于培养灵魂习惯这一问题，你有什么想法？
What are you thinking about in relation to the topic and relation to this developing habits of the soul.
我想
I want
知道你的想法。
to know what you think.
我？
I think?
对，我想知道你的想法。
Yeah, I want to know what you think.
只是看着
Just looking at
那句话，
that quote,
我喜欢其中一点，就是我们期待上帝给予我们某些东西，但祂可能并不会给我们期待的那些东西。
I love that the part of, you know, we're expecting something out of God and maybe He doesn't give us the thing that we're expecting.
我们的反应并不是不再去找祂，而是继续努力，重新站起来，再次尝试，而不是那么专注于中间那个美德的部分。
And our response is not that we no longer go to Him any longer, but we kind of continue and try and get up and try again and not focusing so much on the virtue, that part that's in the middle there.
上帝最初帮助我们走向的，往往不是美德本身，而是这种不断重新尝试的力量。
Very often what God first helps us towards is not the virtue itself, but just to this power of always trying again.
我们不断尝试、失败，再尝试、再失败，却总被带回一个地方，在那里，上帝是我们目标和生命的真正源泉。
We are trying and failing, trying and failing, and we are always being brought back to this place where God is the source of our purpose, of our life, really.
耶稣就是那个参照点，是我们找到永恒生命、并在灵魂所需和渴望的各种美德中成长的地方。
Jesus being that reference point and being that place where we can find everlasting life and can grow in the different virtues and the different things that our souls need and desire.
是的。
Yeah.
真美。
Beautiful.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当我们说努力时，我们被击倒了，然后又站起来再次尝试。
So when we're saying trying, and we're getting knocked down, then we get back up and we try again.
这仅仅是因为上帝的力量赐予了我们这样做的能力。
That's only because the power of God has given us the ability to do it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们想明确一下，我们努力的目标是什么？
We want to define what are we trying towards?
也就是说，最终的目标是什么？
Like, what's the ultimate goal?
嗯。
Mhmm.
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
我认为人们在信仰、生活中，对自己抱有的期望，或他们所学到的、作为人类成长过程中所经历的一切，都有着不同的视角。
I think there's different perspectives that people can have in their faith, in their life, in what expectations they have of themselves or what they've learned or what's been part of their development as a human being.
在我们的信仰中，我们学到，得救不是靠行为。
In our faith, we learn that it's not of works.
我们的救恩不是靠行为，所以没有人可以自夸，而是因着恩典，通过信心。
Our salvation is not of works, thus anyone should boast, but it's by grace through faith.
所以，我不觉得，也许有人会想，我的努力就是今天要变得更好。
So I'm not like, maybe we could think, someone could think that my trying is I need to be better today.
我要好好服侍他人。
I need to serve people well.
我要做出正确的决定。
I need to make the right decisions.
我要战胜自己的罪。
I need to overcome my sin.
我需要把事情做得更好，不管怎样，都要攀登我为自己设定的任何阶梯或楼梯。
I need to do things better and whatever, climb whatever ladder or staircase that I have set before myself.
但我觉得努力的重点不在于我做了什么，而在于我的态度。
But I think the trying is not so much about what I am doing, but my attitude.
我努力让自己更像祂的形象，不是外在的形式，而是身份、我是谁，以及我如何看待自己。
I am trying to be more conformed to His image, not in form, but in identity and who I am and who I make, like who I recognize myself as.
我是神的孩子，我被爱着，我被关怀着。
I am a child of God, I am loved, I am cared for.
这就是我努力去做的，提醒自己，并时刻铭记在心，而不是以外在的行为或所做之事来衡量自己的样子。
And that's what I'm trying and reminding myself and keeping that in front of mind as opposed to what do I look like externally based on my actions or the things that I do.
是的。
Yeah.
真美。
Beautiful.
最终的目标是像基督一样。
The ultimate goal is to be like Christ.
嗯。
Yeah.
罗马书第八章说，神的计划是要我们效法基督的形象。
Romans eight, the plan of God is that we'd be conformed to the image of Christ.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们听过太多次了，以至于可能会渐渐失去焦点，忘了这才是终极目标。
We've heard that so many times, and we can start to lose focus that that's the ultimate goal.
所以，如果我活在世上，有很多事情要做。
So if I'm here in life, there's many things to do.
我会经历很多体验。
There's many experiences that I go through.
会有各种关系。
There's relationships.
这一切都是为了让我效法基督的形象。
They're all for the purposes for me to be conformed to the image of Christ.
当我们看到基督时，他是完美的人。
So when we see Christ, he's the perfect man.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他拥有完美的爱，完美的恩典。
He had perfect love, perfect grace.
他充满怜悯。
He had mercy.
他是一位伟大的导师，最出色的传道者。
He was a great he was the best teacher, the best preacher.
他拥有最大的谦卑。
He had the most humility.
基督所具备的这些所有特质，正是他希望我们成为的样子。
All those characteristics of who Christ is is who he wants us to become.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可以和人们交谈。
And you can talk to people.
这些年来，有几个人曾对我说过，耶稣爱我，就如我现在的样子。
A few people over the years have made comments to me in the sense that Jesus just loves me the way that I am.
是的。
Yeah.
但你必须明确这一点：如果耶稣只是接受你本来的样子，那他就不会来到世上，也不会死在十字架上。
And you have to define that in the sense that if Jesus is just okay with you being who you are, then he would have never came and he would have never died on the cross.
所以，耶稣并不是满足于我本性的状态。
So it isn't as though that Jesus is content with me as who I am in my natural state.
嗯。
Mhmm.
相反，他希望我能成熟、成长，成为另一个人。
But rather he wants me to be able to mature and to grow and to become a different person.
现在我们说，你在基督里的身份是完美的。
Now we say that your identity in Christ is perfect.
这是真的。
That is true.
但根据我的经验，我还没有完全跟上，是的。
But in my experience, I have not yet caught up Yeah.
达到他希望我成为的完整身份。
To the full identity of who he wants me to be.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们将要讨论灵魂的习惯。
So we're gonna be talking about the habits of the soul.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们也可以称之为属灵操练。
And we could say spiritual discipline.
我们也可以称之为信徒在主面前的个人生活。
We could say a believer's personal life before the Lord.
但我们这周想从这个角度来定义它：灵魂有着一些习惯。
But we want to define it this week in the sense that there are habits of the soul.
而习惯不仅仅是习惯本身。
And habits are not just the habit itself.
比如，我祷告、读圣经或去教会，但这些习惯实际上是在引导我，它们是我达成基督希望我达到之境地的工具。
Like, I pray or read my Bible or I go to church, but rather the habits are leading me and they're tools for me to be able to get to where Christ wants me to get to.
嗯。
Mhmm.
保罗在腓立比书里说：我还没有得着，但我竭力追求，向着标竿直跑，就是基督的高召。
Paul says in the Philippians, I have not yet attained, but I press on towards the mark of the high calling Yeah.
那就是基督。
Which is Christ.
嗯。
And Yeah.
他以这种方式表达，就是基督，但其目的是要变得像基督。
He says it in that fashion, which is Christ, but it's to become like Christ.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我从圣经中看到基督时，我看到祂拥有完美的荣耀、完美的圣洁，是人类应有的百分之百的典范。
And when I see Christ in the scripture, I see him in perfect glory, perfect holiness, a 100% of what a human being should be.
而当我审视自己时，我们今天将稍微谈谈内省这个词，内省这个词虽然不一定常被直接使用，但在旧约和新约中却多次被提及，作为我们灵命成长中不可或缺的自我觉察的一部分。
And I look at myself, and we're gonna talk a little bit today about introspection, that word introspection, and how it's a good word because it's not necessarily that word used, but it's talked about quite a bit in the Old Testament and New Testament as part of our walk that we need to have some level of self awareness.
如果我完全没有自我觉察，那么我显然会有盲点，在天然状态下会存在弱点，并且会不自觉地受其支配。
If I have no self awareness, then obviously I have blind spots and I have weaknesses in my natural state and I can operate in those.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以我确实需要一定程度的内省，但同时也要保持恰当的平衡，因为如果内省失控，基督不再是目标，基督不再是中心，恩典不再被践行，就很容易偏离正轨。
So I do need a level of introspection, but at the same time, I need the proper balance of it because if it gets out of hand and Christ isn't the goal, Christ isn't the center, grace isn't being operated, it could be derailed very easily.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得就像习惯一样，如果你今天走进巴诺书店，看看那些自助类书籍，尤其是现在是新年，人们都在试图制定新年决心，希望今年比去年更好。
And I think that like habits, how many, if you walk into Barnes and Noble's today and you look for like the self help books or the ways, especially, it's the new year, people are trying to like whatever, have their new year's resolutions or be better this year than I was last year.
在某些情况下，更新或改变我的习惯，做出这些调整，甚至进行行为上的改变，以便成为更好的自己。
And in some cases updating my habits or changing my habits, having these adjustments, maybe behavior modifications in order to be a better version of myself.
我认为，正如你所说，自我反省——了解我是谁、我从哪里来、我要去向何方，是这一过程的一部分。
It's something that I think knowing, like you said, introspection, knowing who I am and knowing where I'm coming from and to know where I'm going is part of that process.
我认为，我们生活中那些被识别或未被识别的习惯，以及我们固有的倾向，对我们来说至关重要，我们需要识别它们，并在思考灵魂的不同层面——如心智、意志、情感、良知和意识时加以考虑，这些习惯如何影响或作用于我灵魂的各个部分。
And I think those habits that we recognize or don't recognize in our lives, those tendencies we have in our lives are important for us to identify and important for us to consider when we're thinking about these different aspects of our soul, our mind, will, emotions, conscience and consciousness, the parts of our soul and how the different habits that I have play or interact within those different aspects of my soul.
我的思维方式影响着我的决策方式，我感受到的情绪，我灵魂的各个部分彼此互动，而影响我灵魂的习惯也同样触及这些不同的层面。
The way that I think impacts the way that I decide things, the emotions that I feel, all these different parts of my soul interact with one another and the habits that influence my soul also touch all those different parts as well.
属灵的习惯与自然的习惯，我在生活中、成长环境中所形成的种种倾向和模式，都在我的灵魂中相互作用。
And spiritual versus spiritual habits and natural habits, the ways, the tendencies that I have in just my experience in the life that I've lived in, where I grew up, all those different dynamics all play off of one another in our soul.
我认为，理解我是谁、我的身份，很多时候我们试图摆脱自己的思维定式，但有时我们需要认清自己，理解这些概念，才能有所转变、调整，或确立一个参考点：主啊，我该如何帮助？
And I think, yeah, understanding who I am, my identity, you know, getting a lot of times we try to get out of our own heads in different aspects of our life, but sometimes we need to recognize who we are and get understand that concept or those ideas in order to be able to shift or adjust or have a reference point for, okay, God, how can I help?
你如何帮助我理解那些塑造我身份的种种因素？
How can you help me understand these different things that make me who I am?
我们在今天开始录音前曾提到过，箴言第24章。
One thing we were saying before we started recording today, we were saying Proverbs chapter 24.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在患难之日若胆怯，你的力量就微小。
If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is weak.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在患难之日若胆怯，你的力量就微小，这是一句很好的箴言，因为想想看，人生注定充满挣扎，我们需要运用所学的知识。
If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is weak, which is a great proverb because if you think about it, life is going to be one that we have struggles and we need to apply what we've learned.
但当我还是一个不成熟的信徒，甚至是成熟的信徒时，生活中也可能出现一些事情。
But when I'm a immature believer or even mature believer, there can be things that come into my life.
比如说，在我们教会里，我们在联邦山遇到一位女士。
Let's just say for instance, if someone in the church, for instance, in our church, we pass her down in Federal Hill.
如果有人来找我们，可能对我们有意见，而如果我是个敏感的人，我可能会立刻为自己辩护。
If people come to us and they maybe have a problem with us, it could be that if I'm a sensitive person, I can immediately defend myself.
嗯。
Yeah.
通过这种防御，我可能会伤害别人，因为他们不一定觉得我在倾听他们。
And through that defense, I can hurt other people because they don't necessarily feel as though that I'm listening to them.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我可能会在患难之日软弱。
I could faint in the day of adversity.
嗯。
Yeah.
因为主可能正在使用某个人来帮助我。
Because it could be that the Lord is using a person to help me.
主让这个人进入我的生活，是为了让我能够摆脱，或者意识到我确实有试图取悦他人或回避冲突的弱点。
The Lord is bringing that person into my life so that I can actually get out of or recognize maybe I do have a weakness of trying to please people or not necessarily having conflict.
也许我不喜欢冲突。
Maybe I don't like conflict.
我个人不喜欢冲突。
I personally don't like conflict.
我不太擅长这个。
I'm not so good at it.
但与此同时，我知道自己有这个弱点，需要被塑造，并拥有基督的心志。
But at the same time, I know that I have that weakness and I need to be developed and have the mind of Christ.
嗯。
Yeah.
因此，当遇到情况时，我不是为了逃避，而是为了帮助来找我的弟兄，并且我能看出这位弟兄其实是在帮助我。
So that if there is a situation that I can deal with it, not so that I get out of it, but rather that I can help that brother that's coming to me and that I can see that that brother is helping me.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以耶稣在路加福音17章说，要留意自己。
So Jesus says in Luke 17, he uses this phrase, pay attention to yourself.
所以在帮助弟兄之前，你必须先留意自己。
So you have to pay attention to yourself before you're gonna help a brother.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在登山宝训中，他说：在你去帮助弟兄、指出他眼中有小刺之前，先要观察自己眼中是否有大梁。
In the Sermon on the Mount, he says before you go to a brother and he has a little speck in his eye, first, observe that you have a large beam coming out of your eye.
没错。
Yep.
因此，我们在基督里的敬虔，部分在于让圣经来校准我们，使我们意识到自己确实有弱点。
So our devotion before Christ, part of it is being able to have the scripture calibrate ourselves so that we realize that we do have weaknesses.
而且
And
我不希望这些弱点伤害他人。
I don't want those weaknesses to hurt other people.
当一个人有弱点却 unaware 这是弱点时，这个弱点必然会影响到别人。
And whenever someone has a weakness and they're not aware that it's a weakness, that weakness is going to affect somebody else.
嗯。
Yeah.
他希望我们能像基督一样成熟。
And he wants us to be able to mature like Christ.
在逾越节的夜晚，基督与门徒同在，他们彼此争论，却没有人起身服侍对方，他本可以严厉责备他们。
If Christ is there on the Passover night and he's with his disciples and they're all arguing amongst themselves and no one's getting up and serving each other, he could have ripped into them.
是的。
Yeah.
如果他那样做，会扼杀他们接受和预备的能力，嗯。
And that would have shut down their capacity, excuse me, to be able to receive or be prepared Mhmm.
为第二天将要经历的事做准备。
For what they were gonna experience the next day.
是的。
Yeah.
但他没有那样做。
But rather he didn't do that.
他没有开口。
He didn't open up his mouth.
他没有责怪。
He did not blame.
他没有咒诅。
He did not curse.
他没有感到沮丧，而是按照天父希望他的方式引领他们。
He did not get frustrated, but rather he led the way his father wanted him to lead.
嗯。
Yeah.
他赐予了他们恩典。
And he gave them grace.
后来，他们悔改了，并不是因为他严厉责备他们，而是因为他什么也没说，只是用行动向他们展示
And later on, they turned, not because he laid into him with condemnation, but rather he dealt with it by not saying anything, but rather showing them
嗯。
Mhmm.
如何在神的国中服事。
How you should serve in the kingdom of God.
结果，后来他们才意识到，自己在逾越节那晚是多么愚蠢。
And as a result, later on, then they realized how big a knuckleheads they were on the Passover night.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以我们必须信靠，而不是想着去解决这个问题，或者去告诉那个人他们错了。
So we have to trust in the sense that I wanna fix this problem or I wanna go in and tell that person that they're wrong.
嗯。
Yeah.
我得说，等等看。
And I have to say, well, wait a second.
我的本能可能是对抗，或者我的本能可能是逃避。
That could be my natural inclination is to fight or my natural inclination is to run away.
嗯。
Yeah.
但我必须站住，来到主面前。
But rather I have to stand, go before the Lord.
嗯。
Yeah.
主啊，帮助我，求你帮助我。
Help help me, Lord.
如果我里面有任何软弱，请在那软弱中帮助我。
If I do have any weakness in me, help me in that weakness.
祂是完美的，因为正是在这里，你会帮助我解决这个问题。
And he goes perfect because this is where you're going to help me resolve an issue.
但更重要的是，你会在你的成熟中成长，使你在这种情况下更像基督。
But more importantly, you're going to develop in your maturity and become more like Christ in this situation.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，这种软弱，我们软弱的暴露是很难的。
And I think like that weakness, the exposure of our weaknesses is hard.
当然。
Of course.
没有人喜欢变得脆弱并暴露自己的弱点。
Nobody likes to be vulnerable and have your weaknesses exposed.
尤其是在我们所生活的这个世界，社交媒体和日常生活让我们通常只展示自己引以为傲的一面。
And especially in our world that we live in with social media and just our lives in general, we only display the things that we are proud of in most cases.
我的意思是，有些人在这方面可能更开放，但关于灵魂的成长，我想到了锻炼，比如举重之类的。
I mean, some people maybe are more open in regards to that, but that development of a soul, I'm thinking of like exercise, you know, just lifting weights or whatever.
如果我们有这些弱点，而我们所谈论的上帝的话语，就会暴露那些我们不擅长的事情。
If we have weaknesses and these things that we're talking about, the Word of God exposes those things that we are not good at.
我们不应该期待自己在从未做过的事情上就能表现得很好。
And we shouldn't expect to be good at things that we've never done before.
我认为，对我们来说，接受‘我并不擅长这件事’这个事实是很难的。
And I think that's a hard truth for us to come to grips with like, Oh, I am not good at this thing.
就像你所说的，在这种情况下，我有两个选择。
And like you said, there's two options for me in that situation.
我可以选择逃避，不去做，或者感到沮丧，然后站在原地，不断做这些事，却变得越来越弱。
I can either, you know, run away and not do it or get frustrated and, you know, stand and kind of work through it and just get weak, weaker and weaker doing those things.
因此，我认为我们有机会去发展自己的弱点，锻炼这些‘肌肉’，让它们变得熟练，能够被我们运用，从而荣耀上帝，而不是强迫自己去做那些我太弱而无法胜任的事，或因为羞于自己的弱点而逃避。
So I think we have this opportunity for developing our weakness, developing those weaknesses and exercising those muscles to have them be something that can be proficient, something that we can utilize, something that can bring glory to God, as opposed to, you know, trying to force things where I am too weak for them or run away from things because I'm ashamed of my weakness or whatever the case is.
所以我认为，这对我们信仰生活和个人生活来说都是真实的。
So I think that that's true for us in our lives of faith and our lives as individuals.
我们必须认识到这些方面，以便能够荣耀神，并被塑造成祂的形象，而不仅仅是只做我们擅长的事情。
And we have to recognize those things so that we can, you know, glorify God and be conformed into His image, not just only do the things that we're good at.
就像我所说的，失败很难受。
You know, it's hard to, like I said, fail.
我正在格雷特·格雷斯基督教学院担任初中男生篮球队的教练。
Like I'm coaching the basketball team and the middle school boys at Greater Grace Christian Academy.
我们有一些队员以前从未真正打过篮球。
And we have some guys that have never really played on a basketball team before.
所以本周早些时候，我们被对手打得很难看，一度落后了20分。
So we were getting beat pretty bad earlier this week, and one and a half time, we're down by 20 points.
我只是对他们说：伙计们，我知道这很难。
And I'm just like, guys, I know it's hard.
我们正在那里比赛。
We're playing there.
他们比你高。
Guys are taller than you.
他们比你壮。
They're bigger than you.
那我们该怎么办呢？
And like, what are we supposed to do?
我就说，我们只需要继续坚持我们学过的东西，不断进步。
And I was like, we're just supposed to keep doing what we've learned and develop.
好吧。
Okay.
我只是告诉他，去投篮吧。
And I was just telling, I just told him shoot the basketball.
你可能会投丢一些，但也会投进一些。
You're going to miss some of them, but you're going to make some of them.
所以结果不是抱着球不放。
So the result is not to hold the ball.
结果不是不打球，而是去实践你已经学会的东西。
The result is not to, you know, not play, but to go and do what you've learned how to do.
我们的信仰也是如此，你必须投篮才能命中。
And that's the same in our faith is like, okay, you got to shoot in order to make the shot.
你不能一味逃避，总会投丢一些，也会投进一些，但重要的是，我在进步、在成长，越来越接近我们所追求的目标。
Like you can't just run away and hide and you're going to miss some and you're going to make some, but like, okay, I'm progressing and growing and getting closer to we did.
我们最终输掉了比赛，但他们投进了几个球。
We ended up losing the game, but they made some shots.
他们享受了这段经历，得到了成长，现在迎来了下一场比赛。
They had enjoyed that experience and developed and okay, now there's the next game.
想想上一场比赛，我们大比分落后，但你们一直坚持打下去，最终有了一些突破。
It's like, okay, remember last game when we were losing really bad and you guys kept playing and then you succeeded a little bit.
这正是我对现阶段的想象。
That's like the picture I think of of our phase.
我不会选择逃避。
I'm not going to just run away.
我不会放弃。
I'm not going to quit.
我不会停止，不会停止成长。
I'm not going to stop, stop developing.
我会认清自己的能力，设定现实的期望，对自己和周围的人保持敏感，然后根据上帝的属性，恰当地操练和成长。
I'm going to recognize, get my capacity, have a realistic expectation, be sensitive to that for myself and for others around me, and then exercise and develop appropriately in the light of who God is.
我不可能完美。
I'm not going to be perfect.
没有人会完美。
Nobody's going to be perfect.
但我是否正在朝着祂目前呼召我去做的事上进步、成长和发育呢？
But am I progressing and developing and growing in what He's called me to do for right now?
因为没有人能在从未尝试、从未行动、从未经历某些事的情况下就成为专家。
Because nobody's an expert at the, you know, from without ever trying or ever doing or ever going through something necessarily.
所以，是的，我认为关于顺服的思考，就像我们之前讨论过的那样，就是认识到：我并不完美。
So yeah, I think maybe thinking about surrender specifically, that's kind of like we've talked about it already, like recognizing where, like I'm not perfect.
我意识到我在所有事情上都不是最擅长的。
I recognize that I'm not the best at everything that I do.
当我来到顺服的境地时，我是如何应对这一点的呢？我认为我们在基督身上可以看到这一点，祂是大有能力的。
And how do I handle that coming to a place of surrender is I think we see that in Christ where He was powerful.
祂本可以责备门徒。
He could have laid into the disciples.
祂本可以以某种方式运用祂的能力，但祂选择谦卑自己，成为仆人，顺服于祂所创造的受造物，这对我们的人生也是一个写照。
He could have like utilized His power in one sense, but he decided to be humble and be a servant and kind of surrender to the creatures that he made, and how that's a picture for us in our life too.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，当我们说‘顺服’这个词时，它到底意味着什么，又该如何实践呢？
Would say surrender is when we say the word surrender, what does that actually mean and how do you do it?
是的。
Yeah.
我会说，简单来说，这意味着神有祂的旨意，而我也有我的旨意。
I would say to simplify it, it would just mean that God has a will and I have a will.
嗯。
Mhmm.
神有祂做事的方式，而我有我自己的方式。
And I God has a way of doing things and I have a way of doing things.
嗯。
Yeah.
我需要将我凭己意行事的方式交出来。
And I need to surrender the way that I do things in my own will.
嗯。
Yeah.
因为这并不是我的人生。
Because this isn't my life.
我可以这么说。
I could say that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但当他把我置于一个极其不舒服的境地时。
But when he puts me in a situation that's extremely uncomfortable.
嗯。
Yeah.
那么在那一刻，我就必须做出一个决定。
Then I have to make a decision even in that moment.
这将是他的旨意，还是我的旨意？
Is it going to be his will or is it going to be my will?
如果我能从一个宏观的、三万英尺的视角来看待我生命的本质，就能重新调整自己，明白确实他把我放在了这个看似烈火熔炉般的处境中，我感到非常不适，要么我想放弃，要么我想凭自己的力量抗争。
And if I have a good scope, 30,000 foot view of what my life really is, and I can be recalibrated to the fact that, yes, he has me in this position that seems as though that it's a fiery furnace and I am very uncomfortable, and I either wanna quit or I wanna fight in my own strength.
嗯。
Yeah.
我需要学习在这种情况下，他告诉我应该做什么，嗯。
I need to learn what does he say I should be doing in this situation Mhmm.
并且要凭信心和信任，按他的旨意行事，相信他必成就他所要的结果。
And just operate in his will by faith and trust that he is going to have the outcome that he wants.
这不是我希望的结果。
It's not the outcome that I want.
嗯。
Yeah.
我真正应该寻求的是他的结果。
It's his outcome that I should be really looking for.
嗯。
Yeah.
但内省中有一件重要的事，《提摩太前书》4章16节说：你要谨慎自己和自己的教训。
But one important thing with introspection, first Timothy four sixteen says, keep a close watch on yourselves and your teaching.
要坚持不懈，因为这样做，你既能救自己，也能救听你的人。
Persist in this for by doing so, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
所以要时刻警醒自己。
So keep a close watch on yourself.
你所想的，是否与神的话语一致，你的思想和生活是否与你的教导相符，你如何教导会众。
What you're thinking is your thinking and your life aligned with the word of God and your teaching, how you're teaching your congregation.
如果你这样做，你就会救自己，也会救你的听众。
And if you do that, you're gonna save yourself and your hearers.
顺服吧，让我们快速回到内省的部分。
Surrender and let's go back just real quick to the introspection part.
我们需要内省，有位作者说，我前几天刚读到，你需要睁着两只眼睛去做这件事，而不是只睁一只眼。
We need to be introspective with one author says, I just read it the other day that you need to go into that with both eyes open, not just one eye open.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他意思是，当我们说内省或省察自己时，就像保罗说的，要省察自己，看看你们是否在信仰中。
And what he meant by that is that when we say introspection or examine yourself, like Paul says, examine yourself to see if you're in the faith.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他想表达的是，你需要看到自己的软弱，但另一只眼睛也要睁开，看见你在基督里的身份。
What he's saying is that you need to see your weakness, but then your other eye is open to actually see who you are in Christ.
所以这不是只看到负面，因为我们知道，如果陷入那种状态，我们只会出来时感到疲惫、被定罪，充满这一切负面情绪。
So it's not something where I just see the negative because we know if we go down that hole, we're just going to come out, we're going to feel beat up, we're going to feel condemned, we're going to feel all of that.
这不是上帝希望我们所在的状态。
And that's not where God wants us to be.
相反，他希望我们睁开另一只眼睛，明白他创造我们原本的样子。
But rather he wants our other eye open so that we understand who he's created us to be.
我开车来这里的时候，我妻子正在读一本关于在基督里身份的书。
And my wife, when I was driving down here, she has been reading a book just on identity in Christ.
她说的话太惊人了，她在路上告诉我：很多基督徒只是听，拥有知识，但知识终究会变得陈旧。
And it's amazing what she's saying because she said to me on the way down, she goes, a lot of Christians just listen and they have knowledge, but knowledge is just going to be something that gets old.
它只会变成一些词语。
It just becomes words.
就像保罗说的，像鸣响的锣一样。
It's like clanging symbol, like Paul says.
是的。
Yeah.
但她说道，你只需要应用你所听到的，并凭信心相信它。
But she said, you just need to apply what you hear and believe it by faith.
嗯。
Yeah.
当这种情况发生时，耶稣突然开始教导你你在身份上的真实模样。
When that happens, all of a sudden, Jesus starts teaching you who you are in your identity.
她对我说的，我觉得特别棒，就是世界对你身份的所有说法，都完全相反于你真实身份的现实。
And what she said to me, which I thought was so great is that everything that the world has been saying about who you are is the complete opposite of the reality of actually who you are.
这意味着，当你在成长过程中接受训练，与各种人互动时，你的身份可能是在这个世界中形成的。
Meaning that it could be that when you're getting raised up and you're being trained as a young person and you have all of these interactions with people, your identity can be formed in the world.
她所读的那本书的作者说，世界对你的评价，常常与你真正真实的自我完全相反。
And the author of the books that she's reading says that a lot of times what the world says about you is the complete opposite of the reality of who you actually truly are.
当你意识到基督所说的与你自己的经历、自己的天然思维以及人们的天然思维相悖时，Mhmm。
And when you realize that Christ says this, it's contrary to your own experience, your own natural thinking, and the natural thinking of people Mhmm.
那么你就能从一种安全感出发，因为你意识到，甚至不是我在告诉自己我是谁。
Then you can operate from a place of security because you realize that it's not even me telling myself who I am.
我必须真正允许他来告诉我。
I have really have to allow him to tell me.
所以，如果信徒的生命中出现了软弱，这实际上是一件好事。
So if that does happen in a believer's life and weakness does come out, that's actually a good thing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为你并没有把自己的身份认同于软弱。
Because you're not identifying yourself with your weakness.
你只是说，这是一种我有的行为，但我希望从中走出来。
You just say it's a behavior that I have, but I want to move on from that.
如果我真的能摆脱它，我会变得更好，因为我将活出我真正的身份。
And if I do move on from that, I'm gonna be so much better off because I'm gonna be working in my true identity.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那些拥有平安、安全感和权柄的人，都是那些清楚自己真实身份并对此有坚定信念的人。
And people that have peace and security and authority are people that know what their identity actually is, and they have conviction about it.
这正是我们生活中所需要的。
And that's really what we need to have in our life.
但如果生活一帆风顺，
But if life was just smooth sailing
嗯。
Yep.
如果你从未遇到过任何反对，从未接受过任何批评，从未面对过任何让你挣扎的艰难信息，嗯。
And you never had anyone come against you, you never had any kind of critique, you didn't have any message that came to you that was hard and you had to wrestle with it Mhmm.
天哪。
Oh, man.
那一切都会很棒。
Things would be great.
我会过着舒适的生活。
I would just be living a comfortable life.
但你知道吗？
But guess what?
我就不会在真正是谁的认同中成长。
I wouldn't be growing in the identity of who I actually am.
所以神永远不会让我们安于现状。
So God's never gonna let us settle for less.
他总是希望我们拥有更多。
He always wants us to have more.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但要达到那个境界，需要很多向自己和自己的意志死去，凭信心接受他的旨意。
But to get to that place is going to take a lot of dying to myself and my own will and taking up his will by faith.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我最终会过得更好，因为保罗对提摩太说，如果你省察自己、与神一致并活出这一切，你将过上好得多的生活。
But I'm gonna be much better off because Paul says to Timothy, you are going to be doing and living a much better life if you examine yourself, agree with God, and walk in it.
是的。
Yeah.
这太好了。
That's so good.
是的。
Yeah.
我的身份不是由世界定义的，而是由上帝所说的定义的。
My identity is not defined by what the world, but by what God says.
我们清楚地看到，在我们所处的文化和世界中，身份对人们来说是如此重要，人们需要为自己寻找或定义身份。
And I am, and we see that so clearly in our culture, in the world that we live in, where identity is such a, you know, an important thing for people to find for themselves or define for themselves.
而这种身份甚至在一个人自己的内省思想和脑海中都不一致，比如：‘我不再觉得自己知道我是谁了。’
And having it be something that is not consistent, even within some person's own introspective thoughts and mind as like, Oh, I don't feel like I know who I am anymore.
对吧？
Right?
让我试着弄清楚。
Let me try and figure it out.
这就是我们当今世界所处的境况。
And that's where we are in our world.
有很多方式，如果
A lot of ways If
如果基督不是中心，那就是徒劳的。
Christ isn't at the center, it's a futile practice.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我们已经走到这一步了，我正试图改变那些对我身份至关重要或根本性的方面。
And I think we already, all the way to the point where like, I am trying to change things about me that are pivotal or fundamental to who I am.
我试图调整那些本应恒常不变的特质，来试图弄清楚我是谁，而不是在基督的光中接纳那些使我成为我的特质，看到祂为我成就的恩典、祂为我提供的供应，以及我在祂里面可以成为怎样的人，而不是先去修复这个问题，然后再试着修复其他一切。
I'm trying to adjust the things that are unchanging about me in order to try to figure out who I am, as opposed to embracing some of these things that make me who I am in the light of who Christ is and seeing the blessings of what He's done for me, the provision that He's made for me and who I can be in the light of who He is, as opposed to, let me fix this and then, you know, try to fix any, fix things anyways.
我曾在一些圣经学院的课程中谈到过这些，试图厘清这些不同的观念。
And I've talked about that in some Bible college classes, just trying to navigate those different things.
你可以改变很多关于自己的东西，试图弄清楚你是谁，或者你可以选择顺服——说到顺服，这个词通常可能带有负面的含义。
You can change a lot of things about yourself and try to figure out who you are, or you can surrender, which thinking about surrender, there's maybe a negative connotation to that in general.
这可能是文化的影响，或者只是让人联想到‘放弃’的意思。
And maybe that's a cultural thing, or maybe it's just, it has the idea of like giving up.
我认为作为人类，我们很难放弃某些东西，因为我们感到软弱。
And I think it's hard for us to give up things as human beings, because we feel weak.
这又回到了我们之前谈论的软弱问题。
It goes back to that weakness that we were talking about before.
我们觉得自己不够格。
We feel like we're inadequate.
我们觉得自己没有完成应尽的职责，或者不确定这究竟意味着什么。
We feel like we weren't, didn't fulfill what we were supposed to fulfill, or we are unsure of what it means.
如果我在屈服之前先放弃，别人会怎么看待我？
If I give up, before I give in on something, then what's the perception going to be?
如果我放弃这件事或向那件事妥协，我该如何认识自己？
Or how am I going to figure out who I am if I give up this or give in to that thing?
但在马太福音16章，当我思考这个话题时，想到了这节经文。
But in Matthew 16, this was the verse that came to mind when thinking about this topic.
耶稣在第24节说：‘若有人要跟从我，就当舍己，背起他的十字架来跟从我。'
Jesus, starting at verse 24, If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
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因为凡想要救自己生命的，必丧掉生命；但为我牺牲生命的，必得着生命。
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
人若赚得全世界，却赔上自己的灵魂，有什么益处呢？
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?
人还能拿什么换自己的灵魂呢？
Or what will a man give in exchange for a soul?
因为人子要在他父的荣耀里，同着众天使降临，那时他要照各人的行为报应各人。
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works.
我实在告诉你们，站在这里的有些人，必在未尝死味之前，看见人子降临在他的国里。
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in the kingdom.
但那些关于救自己生命、丧失自己生命的经文，以及关于顺服的观念，让我思考：我如何能救自己的生命？
But those verses about saving my life and losing my life and that idea when it comes to surrender, it's like, how can I save my life?
我如何能通过丧失生命来获得生命？
How can I gain my life by losing it?
耶稣的服事、耶稣的榜样、耶稣的生命，就是谦卑自己，放下神性，降临人间，生活、死亡、舍弃，好让我们得胜。
And that's, I mean, Jesus's ministry, Jesus's example, Jesus's life is that humbling himself, setting aside his deity and coming, living and dying and losing so that we may win.
我们觉得不应该输。
And we can't, we don't feel like we should lose.
我们应该能够顺服、软弱或退让。
We should, we are able to surrender or be weak or give in.
但耶稣给我们树立的榜样就是：为了让我们得胜，祂必须先失败。
But that's what the example that Jesus has given to us is that in order for us to win, He had to lose.
当然，祂在第三天复活了，得胜了，并将永远统治掌权。
And obviously He rose again on the third day and is victorious and will rule and reign forever and ever.
但有时我们会忘记这一点。
But sometimes we forget about that.
我认为在我们实际的生活中，我们会想：即使我输了，我仍然有可能赢。
I think in our own practical lives, we're like, Oh, it's possible for me to win even if I lose.
就像用孩子作为例子一样。
Like the using the kid, the example for the kids.
好吧，我们输掉了比赛。
Okay, we lost the game.
但球队中的所有球员都赢了，因为他们坚持、追求、努力并继续向前推进我们在这场比赛中所做的一切。
But all of those players on the team won because they continued and pursued and tried and moved forward in what God, what we were doing with the game.
我们的信仰也是如此。
So in the same way with our faith.
也许我在这一点上输了，但也许上帝已经为我预备了未来或以我目前无法看见或想象的方式赢得胜利。
Okay, maybe I've lost in this sense, but maybe God has given me opportunity to win down the road or in my life in a different way that I can't see or imagine right now.
让我想起了我的大学室友。
Reminds me of my college roommate
嗯。
Mhmm.
他在北卡罗来纳州打高尔夫球。
Playing golf down in North Carolina.
他刚上大一时并没有天赋。
And he when he came in freshman year, he didn't have talent.
他也不够健壮。
He wasn't athletic.
是的。
Yeah.
我们直截了当地说吧。
Let's just say it right off the bat.
他可能没在听，但他确实没什么运动天赋。
He's probably not listening, but he wasn't athletic.
那个孩子非常努力。
And that kid tried so hard.
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，我所有的朋友、其他高尔夫球手总是取笑他，因为他太热爱这项运动，也如此努力。
And the funny thing was that all my buddies, the other golfers would always make fun of him because he loved it so much and he tried so hard.
他们甚至真的试图阻止他，因为那孩子总是在练习。
And they would honestly try to deter him because the kid was out practicing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这个
The
孩子到处旅行，向众多顶尖教练学习。
kid was traveling all over the place, getting instruction from all these top instructors.
嗯。
Yeah.
但他并没有明显进步。
But he wasn't necessarily getting much better.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在他自己心里，他对自己水平的判断与现实并不相符。
In his mind, he had an idea of how good he was, but it wasn't really matching up with reality.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
但这个孩子，别人说什么都不在乎。
But the kid, it didn't matter what people said to him.
他心里就这么想的。
He just had it in his mind.
他很固执。
He was stubborn.
嗯。
Yeah.
不管这些人说什么都没用。
That it doesn't matter what these people are saying.
我就要努力超越所有人。
I'm just gonna try to outwork everybody.
然后有一天，他真的开始变得相当不错了。
And then it got to a point he started actually getting pretty good.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后人们真的开始不高兴了。
And then people really got upset.
然后他开始打败别人了。
And then he started beating beating people.
好吧。
Okay.
但他有那种心态：我知道自己在身体条件上不如别人，但我能重新站起来。
But he had that mentality that, okay, I know that I'm physically not as good as everybody else, but I can get back up.
我可以再试一次。
I can do it again.
实际上，生活中的一切都是不断犯错，然后在朝着目标前进的过程中做出细微的调整。
And really with anything in life, it's all error and then little minor corrections as you get to the goal of where you're trying to go.
嗯。
Yeah.
在我们的基督徒生活中，有一个控告者，这个控告者总是攻击我们的身份。
In our Christian walk, we have an accuser and the accuser is always going to be going against our identity.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们有经验支持他所说的话。
And we have experience that agrees with what he's saying.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们生活中还有其他人也认同他所说的话。
We have other people in life that are agreeing with what he's saying.
是的。
Yeah.
我们的任务是在风暴中保持坚定。
Our job is to be able to be in a situation where we're in the storm.
是的。
Yeah.
我们要么想要抗争，要么想要逃跑，回到加利利，像彼得和门徒们在基督被钉十字架后那样去打鱼。
And we wanna either fight or we wanna run away and go back to Galilee and start fishing like Peter and the boys after Christ was crucified.
是的。
Yeah.
就说，我要辞职了。
And just say, I'm gonna quit.
我要在加利利的海边舒适地生活，吃些美味的鱼，
And I'm going to just live my life comfortably on the seashore of Galilee, eat some good fish,
继续说
go on
偶尔去耶路撒冷度个假，一年去几次，我就心满意足了。
a little vacation, head to Jerusalem a couple times a year, and I'll be happy.
是啊。
Yeah.
但问题是，这并不是你被呼召去做的。
The problem with that is, is that that's not what you're called to.
你被呼召要在风暴中的某个时刻挺身而出。
You're called to be at a certain time in a storm.
而在那场风暴中，你会感到非常不安。
And in that storm, you're going to feel very insecure.
作为男人，我们不喜欢这样。
And as men, we don't like that.
我们会感到软弱，不知道上下左右。
And we're gonna feel weak and we're not gonna know what's up or down.
是的。
Yeah.
但圣经中有应许告诉我们，当耶稣在旷野时，他并没有用自己的观点对抗魔鬼。
But we have promises in the scripture that teach us when Jesus was in the wilderness, he did not try to go against the devil with his own opinion
是的。
Yeah.
也没有凭自己的情感，而是用神的话。
Or his own emotion, but he used the word of God.
现在，每位听众，你们可能已经听过上千遍了。
Now, everyone listening, you've probably heard that a thousand times.
是的。
Yeah.
我也听过一千遍了。
I've heard a thousand times too.
但当你真正将它应用到生活中，你会意识到：哇，我没事。
But when you actually apply it in your life and you realize, wow, I'm okay.
我有稳定性。
I have stability.
我不知道我未来会怎样。
I don't know what the future holds in my life.
我不知道我的未来究竟会如何，但我确信上帝会离弃我。
I don't, I don't know necessarily in my life what the future holds, but I know that God is going to leave me.
他会对我信实。
He's going to be faithful to me.
他希望我在当下舍弃自己，舍弃我的意志、我的对抗或逃避反应。
And he wants me in this moment to lose myself, my will, my responses of fighting or running away.
他希望我站立得住，并拥有他的心意。
He wants me to stand and he wants me to have his mind.
如果我这样做，一切都会好起来的。
And if I do that, everything's going to be okay.
也许情况并不会按照我的意愿发展，但情况一定会按照他的旨意成就。
Maybe the situation doesn't necessarily turn out the way that my will would have it, but the situation is going to turn out according to what his will is.
我会对此感到非常满足，他会保守我、扶持我，使我成为一个健康的人，在灵性上不断成熟，并且帮助周围的人，因为人们不需要我的意见或我的意愿。
And I'll be very content with it, and he'll keep me and he'll sustain me and I'll be a healthy person, spiritually maturing, and then also helping people around me because people don't need my opinion or my will.
他们需要的是基督和他的旨意，需要我们与他们同行，帮助他们。
They need Christ and his will and for us to come alongside them and to help them.
是的。
Yeah.
这样他们就能像我们在费德山三周前谈论的那样，成为腓立比书第四章所描述的人。
So that they can become like we've been talking in Fed Hill three weeks, Philippians chapter four.
大家都说：‘你什么时候才能讲完腓立比书第四章啊？’
Everyone's like, are when you going to get out of Philippians four?
属灵的稳定才是关键。
Spiritual stability is the key.
我们需要以基督的心思为稳定。
We need to be stable with the mind of Christ.
其中一部分是看到自己的软弱。
And part of it is seeing my own weakness.
说：主啊，求你帮助我的软弱。
Saying, Lord, help me in my weakness.
我并不想别的，只求在这种情况中荣耀你。
I don't, I want to just glorify you in the situation.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得想到这一点，就是我的意志和向基督的顺服，可能有一个实际的问题可以讨论：好吧，我已经向基督和祂的旨意顺服了。
I think thinking of that, like my will and surrendering to Christ and this thing, want like a practical maybe question you can talk about is like, okay, I'm surrendered to Christ and His will in my life.
但还有其他人，在出现的情况中，我受到他人意志的影响，他们为我或为某种情况做了决定。
But then there are other people that maybe in situations that arise where I am, I'm impacted by other people's will and what they decide for me or for a situation or for whatever is going on.
我向基督顺服，但似乎这个人并没有向基督顺服。
And I'm surrendered to Christ And I don't it doesn't seem like this other person is surrendered to Christ.
那我该如何应对呢？
And how do I navigate that?
主啊，我关心这件事。
Like, okay, Lord, I care about this.
我关心这个人。
I care about this person.
我关心正在发生的事。
I care about what's going on.
我关心你。
I care about you.
我希望向你降服。
And I want to be surrendered to you.
但我很难向这个人或正在发生的事降服。
But I have a hard time surrendering to this person or this thing that's going on.
那我该怎么办呢？
And like, okay, what should I do?
我该怎么做呢？
How do I do that?
我不知道。
And I don't know.
可能没有一个具体的答案。
There's probably not a specific answer.
但在我回应或自我反思时，就像《诗篇》139篇说的：主啊，你晓得我坐下、起来，晓得我从远处明白我的意念；求你鉴察我，知道我的心。
But in my response or in my own consideration, introspection is like Psalm 139, Lord, you know my rising up, sitting down, you know my thoughts far off, you know, search my heart.
好吧。
Okay.
在我的心里，是否有任何邪恶的道路？求你引导我走永生的道路，明白祂的旨意，面对所有其他正在发生的事情，以及我灵魂中所有这些部分——当我感受到我不喜欢的情绪，或产生某些想法，或做出决定时，我生命中这些方方面面都必须向基督降服，在我自己的生活中向祂降服，在与他人的互动中也如此，而不被结果如何所过度牵绊。
And in my heart, is there any wicked way in me and lead me in the way of everlasting and understanding His will in relationship to all the other things that are going on, all those parts of my soul where I am exercising things like I feel emotions that I don't like, or I'm thinking thoughts, I'm making decisions, all these different areas of my life that are part of my soul, like those all have to be surrendered to Christ and surrender to Him in my own personal life and in my interactions with other people and not getting too consumed with whatever the outcome will be necessarily.
但正如你所说，要站立得住，明白我在基督里的身份，也要让我的意志顺服祂的旨意，在风暴中、风暴前、风暴后，都信靠祂为我预备的一切。
But like you said, standing and understanding who I am in Christ and also letting His will, like my will be conformed to His will and trusting Him in whatever it is He has for me in the midst of the storm, before the storm, as you know, on the other side of the storm.
因为我觉得这可能也很困难。
Because I think that can be difficult too.
我心想：好吧，我已经经历了这场风暴，现在我不再需要顺服了。
Where I'm like, okay, I've gone through this storm and now I'm ready to not surrender anymore.
我不再软弱了。
I'm no longer weak.
我变得坚强了。
I am strong.
而我们可能会忘记正是那种软弱帮助我们度过了那场风暴。
And you know, we can forget about that weakness that got us through that storm also.
是的。
Yeah.
约翰福音21章。
John 21.
是的。
Yeah.
彼得，那个门徒怎么样？
Peter, what about that disciple?
嗯。
Yeah.
耶稣说了什么？
What did Jesus say?
别担心这个。
Don't worry about it.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
你
You
什么都做不了。
can't do anything.
嗯。
Yeah.
别人的意志。
With other people's will.
你无法进入别人的内心去控制他们。
You can't get in people's mind and control them.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，作为人类，当我们对别人感到沮丧时，原因是我们无法控制局面，也无法控制别人的思绪。
I think as humans, when we are frustrated with people, the reason why we get frustrated with them is because we can't control the situation and we can't control people's thoughts.
是的。
Yeah.
猜猜怎么着？
Guess what?
这真是一个伟大的灵性顿悟。
That's a great spiritual epiphany.
我无法控制任何人。
I can't control anybody.
我无法控制别人的思绪。
I can't control people's thoughts.
我无法控制和说服别人，但我深知有一位比我更关心他们的人。
I can't control and persuade people, but I know the one who cares a lot more about them than I do.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那就是他。
And that's him.
所以他可能会问我：你为什么如此在意别人怎么想、怎么说或想做什么？
So he could say to me, why is it that you are so concerned about how someone else thinks or speaks or wants to do?
这跟你有什么关系？
What is that to you?
嗯。
Mhmm.
你为什么不顺从我的旨意，让我成为神呢？
How about you just submit to my will and make me God?
这样一来，你就能影响那个人了。
And as a result of that, you'll be a person that could now affect that other person.
嗯。
Yeah.
因为我不是来试图说服任何人，我只是想引导他们走向他。
Because I'm not going into this trying to convince anybody, but rather I just want to lead them to him.
嗯。
Yeah.
让他们与他一同思考。
And have them think with Him.
因为最终我要站在主面前。
Because ultimately I am going to stand before the Lord.
他们也要站在主面前，我们每个人都将独自面对。
They're going to stand before the Lord and we're all going to be by ourselves.
一切都基于我对你们生命的旨意。
And it's all based upon what was my will for your life.
而且
And
在生活中，我们可能会遇到一些看似不愉快的情况，但我认为这一切都是上帝所命定的。
in life, we can have situations that seem unpleasant, but I think it's all ordained by God.
这一切都是上帝所命定的，都是罗马书第八章所说的，都是为了我们的益处。
All of these things were ordained by God and they're all Romans eight, they're all for our good.
罗马书第八章讲的是什么？
And what is Romans eight talking about?
它讲的是要被模成祂的形象。
It's talking about being conformed to His image.
所以，如果是弟兄，他就会被模成基督的形象。
So if it's a brother, he's going to be conformed to Christ's image.
我也会被模成基督的形象，感谢主，我们甚至能有这样的讨论，因为这样的事正在我们的生命中发生。
Me, I'm going be conformed to Christ's image and praise the Lord that we're even having that discussion that that's even going on in our lives.
这是一件了不起的事。
That is an amazing thing.
确实是。
It is.
是的。
Yeah.
我一直在想这个问题，你知道的，关于顺服和我们正在讨论的这些事。
I was thinking about this, you know, surrender and the things we're talking about.
我突然有个想法，就像我刚写下来的：紧握和放手。
I just had the thought, like I just wrote down on here, holding on and letting go.
你知道，我们紧握的东西和放下的东西各不相同，有些我们本该紧握却放下了，有些我们本该放下却紧握着。
You know, there's different things that we hold on to and different things that we let go of, or things that we should hold on to that we let go of and things that we should let go of that we hold on to.
我认为，这在我们每个人的顺服、在我们的操练中，培养灵魂中的这些习惯，就像拥有分辨力或一个参照点。
And I think this is like for each of us in our surrender, in our disciplines, developing these habits in our soul is like having a discernment or having a reference point.
我们刚才谈到的站立，我们在基督面前或站稳或跌倒，但在生活的某些方面，我们紧握着一些本不该紧握的东西，比如我们的观点或想法。
What we've been talking about standing, we stand or fall before Christ, but there are aspects of our life where we are holding onto things that maybe are things that we shouldn't be holding onto, you know, our opinions or ideas.
我想起我经常在谈论照顾孩子时用到这个例子。
Think of, I use it a lot when I'm talking about like caring for my kids.
我儿子现在16岁了。
Like my son is 16 now.
所以当孩子成长时，你作为父母，会一直关心着他们。
So there's, as they're growing up, as your kids are growing up, have, you know, you're caring
照顾他们。
for them.
当你看起来像26岁的时候，他是怎么说的？
How does he say when you look like you're 26?
我知道，你知道的。
I know, you know?
好吧。
All right.
我们稍后再谈这个。
We'll get into that later.
这是个好问题。
It's a good question.
可口可乐，他现在16岁了，作为父母，在他们生命的头一年，你只是在确保他们活着。
Coca Cola, So he's 16 and like, as you're parenting, the first year of their life, you're keeping them alive.
第二阶段，当他们还是幼儿和更小的时候，你得防止他们伤害自己。
The second, as they're toddlers and younger, it's like you're keeping them from killing themselves.
然后现在到了这个阶段，你试图帮助他们做出正确的决定，从十岁左右到十五岁甚至更年长，从某种意义上说，你不再是唯一的决策者，他们开始为自己做决定。
And then like now you're in this place where you're trying to help them make the right decisions, trying to help from 10 to whatever, 15 or whatever the case is, you're no longer the sole decision maker in one sense, they are making decisions for themselves.
我学会了，我可以紧紧抓住我的孩子，让他们在我身边。
And I've learned like I can hold on tightly to my kids and have them.
我在乎，因为我关心他们。
And I care about because I care about them.
这就是我如此紧紧抓住他们的原因。
That's why I hold on to them so tight.
但为了让他们锻炼那些可能还很薄弱的决策能力，我必须允许他们做决定，允许他们去做一些事情——当然，在合理的范围内，我不会让他们做会伤害自己或他人的事，但我会允许他们去经历一些挣扎，以便我能帮助他们从挣扎中学习。
But in order for them to decide and exercise those muscles that are maybe weak is to allow them to make decisions, allow them to do things that maybe obviously within reason, I'm not allowing to like do things that are going to harm them or harm somebody else necessarily, but allowing them to go and struggle in some cases in order that I can help them learn through the struggle.
作为父亲，这很难，你不想说：‘好吧，我知道这会搞砸。’
Hard as that is as a father, you don't want to be like, okay, I know this is going to go bad.
你明明知道他们不会喜欢这样。
Like you're gonna not like this.
仍然想
Still want
每天把我的孩子裹在泡泡膜里。
to wrap my kids in bubble wrap every day.
没错。
Exactly.
就像那个足球电影里的人，叫什么来着？
It's like the guy from the football, what is it?
《小巨人》里那个穿着泡泡膜出场的孩子。
Little Giants, the kid that comes out with a bubble wrap.
他胳膊都动不了。
He's can't move his arms.
他
He's
出来踢足球。
coming out to play football.
你知道
You know
他妈妈是谁。
who his mom is.
没错。
Exactly.
那种情况并不真实。
Like that is not the reality.
但事实上，如果我紧紧抓住不放，可能会失去和我儿子的关系；而如果我能稍微放松一点，情况就会不同。
But like, I can hold on tight and lose my relationship with my son if I hold on tight as opposed to loosening my grip a little bit.
而且说实话，上帝在掌权。
And honestly, God is in control.
我是否在实际生活中，比如对我儿子以及其他方面，真的相信这一点？我能表现得好像我不在乎这件事，假装不在意，然后放手不管。
Do I believe that in a practical way with my son and in other areas of my life too, where I can act like I don't care about this thing and pretend like I don't care about it and just let it go.
但我实际上真的很在乎。
But I actually do care about it.
所以我会思考这种紧握与放手，用它来比喻我们生活中其他方面的事情，比如：我从事这份职业已经很久了，我紧紧抓住它不放。
So I think about that holding on and letting go in this, using that as a picture of other things in our life where, okay, I've been doing this career for a long time, and I'm holding on to it so tight.
我会想：等等，也许上帝为我预备了更好的，我需要放手。
I'm like, Oh, wait, what but maybe God, you have something better for me, and I need to let go of it.
上帝在掌权吗？
And is God in control?
上帝是至高的吗？
Is God sovereign?
祂坐在宝座上吗？
Is He on the throne?
这些问题反映了我的决定是否真正相信这些事。
Those are the questions that my decisions reflect whether or not I really truly believe those things.
在某些情况下，我并不相信，我需要与主进行一次艰难的对话，或与自己进行深刻的反省：哦，你知道吗，上帝，你坐在宝座上，你拯救了我，你爱我。
And in some cases I don't, and I need to have that hard conversation with the Lord or that introspective dialogue with myself like, Oh, you know what, God, you have, you are on the throne, you save me, you love me.
我信靠你。
And I trust you.
我确实信靠你。
I do trust you.
我要通过我生活中的行动来体现这一点。
And I'm going to show that in what I'm doing in my life.
这并不容易，但这是马特成长的一部分，他现在16岁了。
And it's not easy, but it is part of that development of Matt, how old He's did I 16.
他16岁。
He's 16.
你还记得以前吗？我不确定现在还有没有，但你还记得那种给孩子用的小牵绳吗？
Do you remember back in the day, I don't even know if they do this anymore, but do you remember the little leash that you would have with the kids?
就像一种安全背带。
It's like a harness.
就像一种安全背带，你可能会想爬像酋长岩那样的地方。
It's like a harness, you're like gonna climb like El Capitan.
它能承受高达2000磅的压力。
It could like deal with like 2,000 pounds of pressure.
妈妈会把它系好，末端挂着一个十七磅重的婴儿。
And the mom would have it strapped up and there would be like a seventeen pound baby on the end of it.
想象一下，如果你和以赛亚现在还在用这个东西。
Imagine if you and Isaiah still had that going right now.
天哪。
Oh my God.
我觉得
I think
他可能会对你有意见。
he would have a problem with you.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Definitely.
他会拖着我到处走。
He'd be dragging me around.
但那是一张很棒的照片。
But that's a great picture.
谢谢你这么说。
Thank you for saying that.
因为我认为，作为人类，我们不喜欢变化。
Because I think as humans, we don't like change.
我们喜欢可预测性。
We like predictability.
我们热爱常规。
We love routine.
我不愿承认，但我确实喜欢常规，因为它非常可预测。
I hate to admit it, but I actually like routine because it's very predictable.
当事情可预测时，我就不用在生活上投入太多精力。
And when things are predictable, I don't have to put a ton of effort into life.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为我知道结果会是什么。
Because I know what the outcome is gonna be.
嗯。
Yeah.
但与此同时，如果我没有任何改变，那我就会和二十年前的自己一模一样。
But at the same time, if I don't have any change, then I'm gonna be the same person I was twenty years ago.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以，如果我跟随基督，他说他会改变我，我们会说：太棒了。
So if I follow Christ and he says, I'm gonna change you, we go, yeah, that's amazing.
但当他开始对我说话时，我意识到自己是个罪人，软弱且赤露敞开。
But then when he starts speaking to me, and I realize I'm a sinner and I'm weak and I'm exposed.
嗯。
Yeah.
于是我明白了他为何而来。
And I realize why he came.
他来不是因为我是个了不起的人。
He didn't come here because I was a great person.
他来是因为我是个叛逆者，有自己的意志。
He came here because I was a rebel and I had my own will.
没错。
Yep.
但我相信他会带来改变。
But then I trust him for the change that's going to occur.
当改变真正发生时，那是多么奇妙的事。
When the change does happen, what an amazing thing.
没错。
Yeah.
我知道对一些人来说，他们可以一遍又一遍地过着重复的生活。
I know that for some people, they can just live the same repetitive life over and over again.
我不是在说普通的日常。
I'm not just saying routine.
例行公事很好。
Routine's great.
我根本不是这个意思。
I'm not saying that at all.
但上帝会让他们陷入只有两三个选择的境地。
But that God is going to put them in situations where they only have one or two decisions.
他们可以选择拒绝、逃离，继续留在原地，而上帝完全理解并接受
They got the decision to say no and run away and stay where they're at, and God is totally fine with
这一点。
that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
以赛亚，即使你18岁时被绑在父亲身边，你也会变得苦涩和愤世嫉俗，和父亲的关系也不会好。
Alright, Isaiah, you can be strapped to your dad when you're 18 years old, but you're gonna grow bitter and cynical, and you're not gonna have a good relationship with your dad.
或者你可以跟随我，但走出去会让人害怕。
Or you can follow me, and it's gonna be scary to venture out.
但当你行走在水面上时，你会经历更多的冒险。
But when you walk on the water, you're gonna have much more of an adventure.
当你走完水面上的路，你会成为一个更成熟的人。
And when you're done walking on the water, you're gonna be much more of a man.
在那种情况下，你会更像基督。
You're going to be more like Christ in that situation.
你会因此变得更加幸福。
You're to be much happier through it.
但即使在我们基督徒生命的各个阶段，我们也会变得安于现状，认为自己已经很好了。
But it could be even in our stages of our Christian walk, we get very content and we say we're good.
我们已经足够成熟了。
We've matured enough.
我累了。
I'm tired.
我不需要再成长了。
I don't need to mature anymore.
基督说：不。
And Christ says, no.
只要我让你在这段成圣的时期内留在世上，你就必从荣耀走向更大的荣耀，越来越像基督。
As long as I have you here on the earth during this period of sanctification, you're gonna be being transformed from one glory to the next and becoming more like Christ.
没错。
Yep.
每次我必须像你说的那样，放下手中的一切，即使那是一件好事。
And each time I have to, like you said, put down whatever I have in my hand, even if it's a good thing.
是的。
Yes.
我必须放下它，然后他会为我预备别的，或者我会学到关于他本质的另一个方面，嗯。
I have to put it down, and then he's going to prepare something else for me, or I'm going to learn a different aspect of who he is Mhmm.
在这样的信心行动中。
In that action of faith.
这正是我们直到回家与主同在之前，所被呼召去做的。
That is really what we're called to be doing until we go home to be with the Lord.
嗯。
Yeah.
我觉得罗马书第八章，罗马书8:28里说的‘万有都互相效力，叫爱神的人得益处’，这个‘益处’是祂的益处，不是我们的。
I think that Romans eight, that Romans eight twenty eight, like the good that all things work together for is his good, not ours.
有时候，我们对什么是好的看法，显然和祂的看法不同，因为祂是创造天地、超越时间与空间的神，所以我会想：‘我实在看不出这怎么可能是好的。’
And sometimes like we don't our perspective of what is good is obviously his perspective is different than ours being the God, the creator of the heavens and the earth outside of time and space and all those things like, okay, I can't see how this is going to be good.
所以我选择紧紧抓住。
So I'm going to hold on.
我不知道这最终会怎样发展。
I don't know how this is going to work out.
所以我只是紧紧抓住，让一切保持原状，比如，你知道的，事情保持不变，或者我试图维持现状，比如让我的儿子一直停留在幼儿阶段。
So I'll just hold on tight to keep it where it's at as, you know, things, things stay the same, or I try to keep things the same or try to, you know, my relationship, keep my son as a toddler.
哦，他不再是幼儿了。
Oh, he's no longer a toddler.
天啊，他开始顶嘴了。
Oh my gosh, he's talking back to me.
我该怎么处理呢？他长大了，我也在成长，我们的关系也在成长，我们在基督里的关系也是如此。
How am I going to, you know, and it causes, he's growing and I'm growing and our relationship is growing and that's the same with us in Christ.
就像祂在我们里面，我们对祂的理解也在加深，对祂的整体认识也在提升。
Like he is, we are understanding more of Him in ourselves and just in understanding Him in general.
这实际上对我们有益，而不是一遍又一遍地重复同样的事情。
And that's actually beneficial for us as opposed to continuing on doing the same things over and over again.
有一本书叫《原子习惯》。
There's a book called Atomic Habits.
这本书像是《纽约时报》畅销书之类的，人人都在读。
It's like a, everybody, it's like New York Times bestseller, whatever.
书中提到的一点是，重要的不是你做了什么，而是你对自己的身份认同。
And one of the things that's talked about in that is, it's not so much about the things that you do, but like the identity that you have.
比如，不要说‘我跑去跑步’，而要说‘我是一个跑步者’。
You know, like instead of saying I run, like I go for runs, you say, I'm a runner.
你的行为反映了你如何看待自己。
So like your your actions are a reflection of who you perceive yourself to be.
你会去做
You're gonna do
取决于你如何看待自己。
going do with how you see yourself.
没错。
Exactly.
我不会说‘我跑步’，或者你随便举个例子，我不会那样说。
I'm not going to say I run or I'm not going to say, whatever example you want to use.
你不会说‘我画画’，你会说‘我是个艺术家’，然后去做那些事。
You don't say I draw, you say I'm an artist and I do those things.
所以我认为，同样地，在我们理解如何培养习惯，或培养我们在基督里所需的灵性习惯时，我是谁？
So I think in the same way, like in our understanding of developing these habits or developing the soul habits that we need in Christ, like, who am I?
我的习惯会反映我如何看待自己。
And my habits will reflect who I perceive myself to be.
如果基督是这种身份的源头，正如我们之前所讨论的，那么我的习惯就会反映出来：如果我把自己看作罪人，我的习惯就会反映这一点。
And if Christ is the source of that identity, as we've been talking about, then my habits will reflect If those I see myself as a sinner, then my habits will reflect that.
如果我把自己看作是一个被恩典拯救的罪人，并与上帝的儿子有关系，那么我的习惯就会随之体现出来。
If I see myself as a sinner saved by grace and in relationship with Son of God, then my habits will result or will reflect that.
那些不符合的习惯，你知道，最终会自然消失。
And those habits that do not will, you know, fall away.
显然，我们在这些事情上并不完美，但我的参照点是：我是上帝的孩子，我顺服于这个身份，因为基督为我献上了自己。
Obviously, we're not perfect in all those things, but my reference point being, I am a child of God and I am surrendered to that identity because Christ has surrendered himself in sacrifice for me.
这太美了。
It's beautiful.
嗯。
Yeah.
这真是个很好的观点。
That's a really good one.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
谢谢你的分享。
Thanks for that.
当然。
Of course.
我想我们时间到了。
I think we're out of time.
是的。
Yeah.
你还有什么想说的吗？
So you have anything to say?
嗯。
Yeah.
别，别。
Don't, don't.
我认为，我们的身份是我们灵魂形成这些习惯的根源。
I think that was the, you know, our identity being the source of our, of how we develop these habits for our soul.
我觉得是这样，我的意思是，我们从那里开始，也在那里取得了成功。
I think that's, I mean, we started there and we won there.
今晚我要想着你和以赛亚去睡觉。
I'm to go to bed tonight thinking about you and Isaiah.
带着这个装备。
Strapped up with that.
不过这是一张很棒的照片。
That's a great picture though.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢这个。
Love that.
我认为我们的天父也是这样对待我们的。
And I think that's how our heavenly father deals with us as well.
他并不害怕我们进入世界去犯错、跌倒，因为他已经完成了所有的工作。
He's not afraid for us to go out into the world and screw up and make mistakes because he's already finished the work.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他只是希望我们认识到，当我们陷入罪中、软弱或跌倒时，只要重新站起来就行。
He just wants us to recognize when we are walking in sin or we're weak or we fall, just get back up.
嗯。
Yeah.
重新站起来。
Get back up.
让我告诉你，告诉你你真正的身份。
Just let me speak to you, tell you who you really are.
通过这一点，你会获得力量，你会好起来的。
And through that, you're gonna have strength and you're gonna be fine.
嗯。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这就是浪子回头的故事。
I mean, that's the story of the prodigal son.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
他让他走，然后又在那里迎接他。
He lets him go and then he's there to welcome him.
这就像我儿子的情况的一部分。
And that's like part of it with my son.
我希望他遇到麻烦时能来找我。
Like, I want him to come and come to me when he's in trouble.
如果我抓得太紧，他就不愿意了，他会觉得我不为他着想，他遇到麻烦时就会去别处，而不是回来找我。
If I hold on too tight, then he's not going to want to, he's going to think that I don't want the best for him and he will go somewhere else when he's in trouble as opposed to coming back to me.
阿门。
Amen.
嗯。
Yeah.
谢谢您今天参加《恩典时刻》节目。
Well, thanks for joining us today on the Grace Hour Show.
请点赞、订阅，并在各个平台查看本周《塑造灵魂的习惯》的其他集数。
Be sure to like, subscribe, all the different places and check out the rest of the episodes this week on Developing habits of the soul.
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