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欢迎来到恩典时刻。
Welcome to the Grace Hour.
现在为您现场直播，来自马里兰州巴尔的摩的我们的演播室。
Coming to you live here from our studios in Baltimore, Maryland.
实际上，如果您看过我们上周的节目，就不会以为我们现在是从我的卧室演播室直播了。
Actually, not coming to you from the studios in my bedroom if you were here with our last week's edition.
你们当时看到了我们搭建的临时演播室。
We you saw the pop up studio that we had put together.
如果你没听懂这个笑话，请回听上周节目的前几分钟。
If you're if you're not getting the joke, tune in to last week's episode, first few minutes.
我相信你会喜欢的。
I think you'll appreciate it.
今天我们能和大家在一起，感到非常高兴。
We are happy to be here with you today.
今天我和贾斯汀·沙勒牧师、我自己，巴里·奎克，以及我们杰出的制作人塞巴斯蒂安·帕尔梅里在这里。
I'm here with pastor Justin Schaller, myself, Barry Quirk, and our incredible producer, mister Sebastian Palmieri.
今天我们要和大家讨论一个主题，本周我们将围绕‘属灵上得生命’展开。
And we're gonna talk to you today about a topic that this week we'll be speaking on about being spiritually alive.
今天我们要谈的是从死亡走向生命。
And today, we are talking about coming from death unto life.
这是一个信徒非常需要理解的重要主题。
And this is a great topic for believers to understand.
也许有些信徒会存在争议，认为我们并不都是坏的。
Maybe there could be some controversy in some believers' lives that they think that we're not all bad.
但我想，当我们深入探讨这个主题时，我们会看到，没有基督，我们在属灵上就如同尸体一般。
But I think that when we get into the topic here a little bit, we're going to see that without Christ, we are as corpses, spiritually speaking.
让我们先来读一下哥林多后书第9章第15节的经文。
And, let's start by reading this verse from second Corinthians chapter nine, verse 15.
感谢上帝，赐下这无法言喻的恩赐。
Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
这无法言喻的恩赐，就是生命的恩赐。
And that unspeakable gift is the gift of life.
我想首先说的是，这不仅仅是坏人变好，而是死人得生命。
And, one thing that I'd like to say right off the the top is that this is not just merely bad people being made good, but this is dead people being made alive.
以弗所书第二章说，没有基督，我们在罪恶和过犯中是死的。
So without Christ, we are dead in our sins and our trespasses, it says in Ephesians chapter two.
但在基督里，我们拥有这奇妙的生命。
But in Christ, we have this incredible life.
真是个绝佳的开场话题。
What a great place to start a show.
确实是。
It is.
灵里死亡。
Spiritually dead.
‘灵里死亡’这个说法，很多人并不理解。
That's a phrase that a lot of people don't understand, being spiritually dead.
听起来很极端，不是吗？
Seems extreme, doesn't it?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，当你考虑到这一点时，真正有趣的是，你很可能在拥有生命之前根本意识不到自己是死的。
I mean, it really does when you consider, the interesting thing is that you probably don't even realize you're dead until you have life.
对吧？
Right?
这就是人们所面临的困境：一位作家曾将其比喻为灵魂中一个没有空气的气球，它一直存在，但你真正感受到它的价值，是在它被生命的气息充满之后。
This is the dilemma that people face is that, one one writer, he speaks about it as a balloon inside the soul that's without any air that is there, but you really don't sense its its value until it's filled with the breath of life.
嗯
Mhmm.
而灵里死亡，我们可以追溯到伊甸园，对吧，从《创世记》开始。
And being spiritually dead, well, we could trace it back to the garden, right, from Genesis.
嗯
Mhmm.
在《创世记》中，这个话题你最近研究得很多，可能对此也有一些很好的见解。
And in Genesis, a topic which you've been studying a lot and and probably have some good things to say about on this as well.
你知道，亚当和夏娃在园子里。
You know, Adam and Eve are in the garden.
他们每天在下午凉爽的园中接受供养。
They're being fed daily in the cool of the garden in the afternoon.
他们与主相交，同时学习关于创造的知识。
They're having fellowship with the Lord, and they're they're just learning about creation.
你能想象比这更好的情景吗？
Could you imagine a better scenario than that?
嗯。
Mhmm.
当然，诱惑来了——园子里所有的果子都可以吃，唯独那一棵不行。
And, of course, the the the temptation happens, eat of any fruit of the tree, any any fruit of the garden except for that one.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你吃那棵树的果子的那一天，必定死亡。
And the day that you eat of that one, you shall surely die.
是的。
Mhmm.
我们知道，从那时起，罪便进入了世界。
And we know at that point, that sin enters into the world.
由于上帝的本性是圣洁、完美、无法与罪同在的，因此人与神之间产生了隔阂。
And because God is who He is, without sin, perfect, incapable of fellowshipping with sin, there's a separation between man and God.
有趣的是，当亚当和夏娃躲藏时，上帝为他们用动物皮毛做了衣服。
And it's interesting that when Adam goes to hide and Eve go to hide, that clothes are made for them out of animal skins.
对吧？
Right?
是主为他们提供了这些衣服。
The Lord provides those for them.
如果没有动物的死亡，就不会有动物皮毛。
You don't have animal skins unless you have some animal death.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这就是关于死亡如何必须发生，才能带来生命的开端故事。
So, the beginning of the story of how death would have to happen in order for life to come out of it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此，肉体上的死亡过程开始了，同时由于人的罪，与上帝的灵性分离也发生了，但这其中并非没有救赎的故事。
So physically, the process of dying begins, but also spiritually, the separation from God because of man's sin happens, but not without a story of redemption.
比如，你觉得经文说他们因为被逐出伊甸园而与上帝灵性分离，这到底意味着什么？
Like, what do you think it means when it says that they spiritually were separated from God because of they got kicked out of the garden.
那里是上帝同在的地方，而他们却被逐出了伊甸园。
That was where the presence of God was, and they got kicked out of the garden.
我们是不是就是从这里得到'灵性死亡'这个说法的？
Is that where we get this phrase being spiritually dead
这确实看起来像是这个说法的源头。
It's from it's certainly seems like that would be the origin.
你知道，伊甸园是罪通过一个人进入世界的起点，罪通过一个人进入世界，是的。
You know, the the Garden of Eden being the origin of when sin entered into the world by one man, sin enters into the world by one man Mhmm.
生命。
Life.
对吧？
Right?
所以，是的。
So yeah.
我的意思是，我不确定。
I mean, I don't know.
也许你对此有什么看法。
Maybe you have something to say about it.
看起来你似乎
Seems like you're
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我只是在思考。
I'm I'm just thinking.
但当我们想到上帝是完美的，并且自由地、每日地向人赐予自己，给人命令：可以吃树上的果子，但不要吃那一个。
But when we think about God being perfect and, you know, giving of himself to man freely, daily, giving man the command to follow, eat of the fruit of the trees, but don't eat of that one.
一旦发生这件事，死亡就会进入你里面。
And the moment that that happens, death will enter into you.
你知道吗？
You know?
但他们并没有立刻死去。
Well, they didn't they didn't die immediately.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然而，死亡的过程已经开始了
However, the process of death started
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我们理解肉体的死亡时。
As we understand physical death.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但还有几节经文。
But also, there are several verses.
你知道，保罗就在这里提到那无法言喻的恩赐。
You know, Paul Paul says right here that about the unspeakable gift.
还有以弗所书第二章，你们从前在过犯和罪恶中死去，曾随从今世的风俗，顺服空中掌权者的首领，就是现今在悖逆之子心中运行的灵。我们从前也都在他们中间，放纵肉体的私欲，随着肉体和心中所喜好的去行，本为可怒之子，和别人一样。
But also Ephesians chapter two, as you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以很明显，那罪恶和过犯的发生，开启了我们与上帝分离的过程。
So it certainly appears like, you know, the trespass and the sin that happened started the process of our separation from God.
我们要谈论的罪，是我们无法与上帝相交的不可妥协的事实。
Know, the sins that we're talking about, are it's it's a nonnegotiable that we cannot have fellowship with God.
所以，是的，我们与祂分离了。
So, yeah, we're separated.
我们没有能力与上帝思想相通。
We we don't have the ability to think with God.
属血气的人不能领会属神的事。
The natural man can't understand the things of God.
必须有赎罪发生，才能让我们得以亲近恩典的宝座。
There has to be an atonement that happens, in order to give us access to the throne of grace.
这一切都由此开始。
And this this is where it all starts.
是的。
Yeah.
他们在园中与基督、与上帝同在，这画面真有意思。
What an interesting picture that they're in the garden and they have that life with Christ, with God.
是的
Yep.
我认为这正是花园的全部意义所在。
I think that's the whole idea of the garden.
没错。
Yes.
他们在那里，有一种生命之源维持着他们永恒的生命。
That they're there and there's a life source that's keeping them alive for eternity.
是的。
Yeah.
这是永恒的。
It's eternal.
如果你与那个生命之源分离了。
And then if you're separated from that life source.
所以，死亡和分离是同义的。
So it's a synonymous death and separation.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
我知道有些人，比如在希伯来语中，‘死亡’和‘分离’这两个词并不是同一个意思。
I know that some people, like in the Hebrew, those two words aren't the same, death and separation.
但我确实认为在《创世记》第一章中，你看到上帝将生命与黑暗分开了。
But I do think in Genesis one, you see that God separated life from darkness.
他分开了海洋。
He separated the seas.
分离是他创造的一部分。
Separation was part of his creation.
当你读到《创世记》第三章时，上帝在凉爽的时辰中与他们同在。
And then when you get to Genesis chapter three, God is with them in the coolness of the day.
这个观念的核心是，他永远与他们同在。
And that whole idea is that he's eternally with them.
如果他们与这个生命之源分离，那么显然在灵性上，他们就与那维持他们永恒生命的事物断开了联系。
And if they're separated from that life source, then obviously spiritually they're disconnected from something that's going to keep them alive eternally.
所以，死亡和分离这个主题是非常明确的，是的。
So the idea of death and separation is a theme for sure Mhmm.
贯穿整本圣经。
Going through the scriptures.
当亚当和夏娃被赶出伊甸园时，他们显然没有立即肉体死亡，但我们说他们灵里已经死了。
So with Adam and Eve, when they were kicked out, they obviously physically didn't die, but then we say that they were spiritually dead.
那么，灵里死亡到底意味着什么？
Like, what does that mean to be spiritually dead?
如果你在地上看到一个肉体已死的人，你可以戳他、推他、对他大喊，但他都无法回应。
Well, if you had a physically dead person on the ground, you could poke them, prod them, yell at them, they're not able to respond.
看来保罗也延续了这个主题。
So it seems as though Paul picks up that theme.
在新约中，他们也提到灵里死亡就是你虽然可以戳一个死人，但他却无法回应。
And then in the New Testament, they pick up the theme of obviously being spiritually dead is that you can poke a dead man, but he can't respond.
因此，你失去了回应神的能力。
So you don't have the ability to be responsive to God.
所以你显然缺乏拥有某种永恒生命的能力。
So you're lacking the ability obviously to have some sort of eternal life.
你拥有生物性生命，但没有永恒的生命。
You have bios life, but you don't have eternal life.
因此，人们处于这种状态，就像你刚才说的，他们并不知道自己处于这种状态，这另一个有趣的地方在于，自然人并不知道自己是灵性上死亡的，也不知道自己有能力与神建立这种跨维度的关系。
So that's a state that people are, like you just said, they're unaware that they're in that state, which is another interesting thing that the natural man doesn't know that he's spiritually dead or that he has a capacity to be able to have this interdimensional relationship with God.
这种能力完全被排除在外，他们甚至不一定感到缺失，因为他们根本不知道这是自己的潜能。
That that is something that's completely off the table and they don't necessarily even miss it because they don't know that that is their capacity.
所以
So
那么，一个仅仅活在生物性生命中的人，如何才能意识到自己是灵性上死亡的呢？
how can that person who's just living a BIOS life become aware that they're spiritually dead?
这到底是如何发生的呢？
Like how does that actually happen?
这是一个奇迹，因为如果他们是灵性上死亡的，那就无法作出回应。
It's a miracle because if they're spiritually dead, then they can't respond.
那么，你如何让一个灵里死亡的人意识到自己是死的呢？
So then how do you make a spiritually dead person aware that they're dead?
这不可能。
That's impossible.
所以，上帝一定有一种方法，能让这个人意识到自己的状态。
So there must be some sort of method that God has to be able to make that person aware.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，显然，神的话带来光明。
I mean, obviously, the the word of God brings light.
对吧？
Right?
提摩太前书五章六节说，所谓‘死的’，实际上指的是那些与神的生命隔绝的人。
And, first Timothy five six says that the dead, really how it translates is are those that are alienated from the life of God.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为，说我们与上帝的生命隔绝了，这是一个很好的表达方式。
And that's, I think, a good way to put it that we have been alienated from the life of God.
我们已经被分离了。
We've been separated.
我们之间出现了一些障碍。
We've been, there's something that came between us.
对吧？
Right?
而消除这种隔绝的唯一方式，就是祂主动的死亡。
And the only way that that can be removed is by his initiation of death.
然后祂甘愿赐下通过祂的死亡而来的救恩。
And then that he would freely offer that salvation that comes through his death.
如果我们继续读以弗所书第二章的后半部分，就会看到：上帝因着祂极大的慈爱和对我们的爱，即使我们在过犯中死了，也使我们与基督一同活过来。
If we read the rest of that portion in in, Ephesians chapter two, says, God being rich in mercy because of the great love which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.
他使我们与基督一同活过来。
He made us alive with Christ.
有一种复活的生命。
There was a resurrection life.
对吧？
Right?
你们因恩典得救，他使我们与基督一同复活，并在基督耶稣里将我们印上印记，安置在天上的地方。
By grace, you have been saved and raised us up with him and sealed us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
所以，我想到了这个画面，你可以从中描绘出来。
So, and I think about this picture, you can kind of draw from it.
我想这是《雅各书》第一章第21节，那里说：‘要脱去一切的污秽和盈余的邪恶，存温柔的心领受那所栽种的道。’
I I think it's James chapter one and verse 21 where it says, lay apart all filthiness and superfluidity of naughtiness and receive with meekness
我喜欢这句话。
I love that phrase.
是的。
Yeah.
但那邪恶。
But The naughtiness.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我一直以来从这段经文想到的画面是，虽然我不记得是在哪里读到的，但有一位解经者说，多余的邪恶就像属灵的耳垢——神从未停止说话，但我却可以停止聆听祂。
You know, the picture that I always got out of this, and I I can't remember where it was that I I read about this, but, one commenter, commentator, he said that the superfluity of naughtiness is like spiritual earwax in the sense that God doesn't ever stop speaking, but I can stop hearing him.
而那些容易缠累我们的罪，会逐渐固化，阻碍我们听见神的声音。
And that the sins that so easily beset us, they start to compact our ability to hear from God.
对吧？
Right?
所以，我们有一种无法听见神声音的状况，正如经文后半部分所说，这道能救你们的灵魂。
So, you know, we have this inability to hear the voice of God, which, as we say in the second part of the verse, which is able to save your souls.
当我们活在罪中时，甚至无法听见那声音。
So we're not even capable of hearing that while we're living in that sin.
但没错，我们在罗马书第八章知道，属肉体的人不能，你知道，对神的事有敌意。
But, yeah, we know in Romans chapter eight, the carnal man cannot you know, there's there's enmity against the things of God.
对。
Right.
但他使我们，你知道的，使我们完全。
And yet he makes us, you know, he makes us whole.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他确实如此。
He does it.
这是上帝的作为。
And it's it's an act of God.
最终，我们被赋予了做出决定的能力。
Eventually, are given the ability to make a decision.
基督向我们显明。
Christ is shown to us.
我们可以说 yes 或 no。
And we are you say yay or nay.
对吧？
Right?
他是一位终极的绅士，因为他不会替我们做这个决定。
He's he's the ultimate gentleman in the sense that he doesn't make that decision for us.
但他以一种我们可以回应的方式呈现了真理。
But he presents the truth in a way that we can respond.
我知道我们之前稍微讨论过谁被吸引、谁回应，以及这一切是如何运作的。
And I know we had this conversation a little bit before about who is drawn and who responds and how does that all work.
这是一个更深层次的话题。
And that's a deeper subject.
只是一个谜。
Just a mystery.
是的，这是一个谜。
Yeah, it's a mystery.
但我们确实知道，导致我们与上帝分离的过犯、罪恶、惩罚或所有重担，都已经由上帝在十字架上处理了。
But we do know that the trespasses or the sin or the penalty or all the weight of that that that has caused us to be separated from God has been dealt with by God on the cross.
对吧？
Right?
所以现在不再是罪的问题，而是关系的问题。
So no longer is it that sin issue, but now it's a relationship issue.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你愿意与我的儿子建立关系吗？他已经提供了答案。
Will you enter into a relationship with my son who has already provided the answer Mhmm.
面对让你与神的事物隔绝的困境。
For the dilemma that's made you an alien from the things of God.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那些接受基督、与基督一同经历祂的死和埋葬的人，就能体验到基督里生命。
Those that receive Christ and have that the impact of that death and and the burial of our sins with Christ get to experience the life that's also in Christ.
你知道吗？我们与祂一同被钉十字架，这太不可思议了。
You know, we are crucified together with him, which is incredible.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道，在歌罗西书一章十三节中提到，我们被迁移到了他爱子的国里。
You know, we are translated in Colossians one thirteen, translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son.
嗯。
Mhmm.
被迁移。
Translated.
我总是想到那些机器，就是那种爪子，你去抓毛绒玩具的那种。
I always think about the those machines, the claws that have the you you go after, like, the teddy bear.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
然后它被举了起来。
And it's lifted up
那个爪子从来不会抓起毛绒玩具。
The cause never pick up the teddy bear.
我跟你说，几个月前我带孩子们去 arcade，花了差不多30美元，我女儿一直坚信她能赢。
Let me tell you, I spent like $30 at the arcade like a couple of months ago when I brought my kids and my daughter was convinced.
有趣的是，我当时站在机器后面。
And the funny thing is, I was at the back of the machine.
这话题跑得太远了，抱歉。
This is so off topic, but I'm sorry.
人们已经从我们这里开始理解这一点。
People have come to appreciate that from us.
想想吧，贾斯汀牧师。
Think, Pastor Justin.
没关系。
It's fine.
她
She's
爸爸，我觉得我能赢到。
like, dad, I think I could get it.
我觉得我能赢。
I think I could get it.
所以我站在机器后面，透过玻璃看着她，告诉她该把硬币投到哪里，可她却说：爸爸，我能自己来吗？
So I'm at the back of the machine, like looking through the glass, looking at her through the glass, telling her where to put the And she just goes, dad, can I just do it myself?
我跟你说，我们大概试了很多次。
And I'm telling you, we probably tried.
到这个时候，我可能已经往这台机器里投了20美元了。
I probably pumped $20 into this machine already by this point.
爸爸，你就让我自己来吧。
Dad, can you just let me do it on my do it.
我向神起誓，我真的走到 arcade 的另一头，然后就听到一声尖叫。
Honest to God, before the Lord, I walked out into the other part of the arcade and I just hear a scream.
我走回去，她第一次就成功了。
I walked back in the first try.
她自己做到了。
She did it by herself.
她拿起了一只巨大的泰迪熊。
She picked up this huge teddy bear.
给你。
There you go.
我当时就想，这真是过度养育的一个绝佳例子。
And I'm like, that that is a great example of over parenting
在外面。
out there.
是的。
Yeah.
抱歉。
Sorry.
所以，从王国翻译过来
So translated from the kingdom
黑暗的王国进入光明的王国，对不起，塞巴斯蒂安。
of darkness into the kingdom of I'm sorry, Sebastian.
不。
No.
但那不是很有道理吗？
But doesn't that it it makes sense.
这就像是你根本无法从黑暗的国度进入你儿子的国度。
It's kind of like you you're incapable of getting from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of your son.
必须有什么东西能将我们转化。
There has to be something that translates us.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那就是上帝的工作。
And that's the work of God.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
我们的部分是什么？
What's our part?
去接受它。
To receive it.
是的。
Mhmm.
去相信它。
To believe it.
去相信它。
To believe it.
去体验上帝赐予我们的恩典。
To experience the gift that God has for us.
而这份难以言喻的恩典，并不是他说：‘你基本上很好，但你有些缺点。’
And that that inexplicable gift is not him saying, well, you're you're mostly good, but you got some bad parts.
是的。
Mhmm.
就像，不是这样的。
It's like, no.
在基督之外，你知道，罗马书3章10节，罗马书3章23节，罗马书之路，你知道，我们当中没有一个义人。
Outside of Christ, you know, Romans three ten, Romans three twenty three, the Romans road, you know, we are there is none righteous.
不是。
No.
一个都没有。
Not one.
因为世人都犯了罪，亏缺了神的荣耀。
Like, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
罪的工价乃是死，但神的恩赐乃是永生。
The wages of our sin is death, but the gift of God the gift of God is eternal life.
所以我们显然明白，这恩典是真实的，我们已被从黑暗的权势中迁入他爱子的国里。
So we obviously understand that there's a gift and that we have been taken from a kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son.
现在有些人会说，那是否意味着你再也不会经历罪了？
Now some people would say, well, does that mean that you don't experience sin anymore?
不。
No.
我们会。
We do.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么雅各书一章二十一节如此重要，因为我们若活在属肉体的状态中，或接受那些对神的国无益的事物，就可能中断我们与神的关系，使我们的耳朵被堵住，无法听见神的声音。
And that's why that verse in James one twenty one is important because we can we can have our relationship with God interrupted by living in carnality or living in, you know, receiving things that aren't advantageous to the kingdom of God and having it literally gum up your ears, your ability to hear from God.
对吧？
Right?
属灵的耳垢是个令人反感的话题，但我认为这是一个很好的比喻。
And spiritual earwax is a disgusting topic, but I think it's a good picture.
这是
It's
一个很好的比喻。
a great picture.
因为这已经不再是罪的问题。
Because it's no longer a sin issue.
这是一个关系的问题。
It's a relationship issue.
当然。
Sure.
一旦我们成为信徒。
Once we are believers.
对吧？
Right?
我们知道，一旦成为信徒，就像灯泡拧进了灯座，但并没有完全拧紧。
We know that the moment we become believers that, you know, there's a light bulb that's screwed into the socket, but it's not all the way screwed in.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它就在那里，等待着某些事情发生。
It's there waiting for something to happen.
但如果没有圣灵，就没有光照。
But without the Holy Spirit, there's no illumination.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我们接受基督并被圣灵印记的那一刻，灯泡就拧紧了，灯就亮了。
The moment we receive Christ and are sealed with the spirit, that light bulb goes in, the light goes on.
现在我们能够明白神的事了。
Now we can understand the things of God.
我们知道，我们并不是全知的，因为我们不是神。
You know, we're not all knowing because we're not God.
但在我们信主之前，我们根本没有能力领受神的事。
But we before we had zero capacity to receive the things of God.
而现在，我们开始能够领受神的事，并在恩典和对祂的认识上成长。
And now we can start to receive the things of God and grow in grace and knowledge of who he is.
我的意思是，如果这是真的，而它确实是真的，我们相信它是真的，因为它改变了我们的生命。
I mean, if that's true, which it is true, we believe it to be true because it's changed our lives.
所以你们有主观的例子，有些人做出了这个决定后，就开始从上头领受，开始领受来自上头的智慧。
So you have a subjective example of people that have made that decision, and then they start receiving something from above, they start receiving wisdom from above.
因此，他们的生命成为了一个见证，证明他们领受了来自这个物质世界之外、或超越自然思维、超越雅各所说的属地智慧的东西。
And as a result of it, their life is a testament to them receiving something outside of this physical world or just natural thinking or wisdom from below, as James puts it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们把死亡定义为与神的生命分离。
So we define we define death as being separation from the life of God.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果你回想起伊甸园的景象，你可能会听腻了我谈论伊甸园，但如果你想想那个画面，神被安置在园子的中心，祂放置了生命树和分别善恶的树。
If you think going back to that picture of the Garden of Eden, you're gonna be tired of me talking about the Garden of Eden in the book But of if you think about that picture, you have God put at the center of the garden, you have Him put the tree of life and then the knowledge of good and evil.
我们不禁要问，为什么要把这两棵树放在中心、放在核心位置？
And we think why are you putting those two trees at the center, at the epicenter?
我不确定以前有没有说过这句话，但我肯定在别处说过。
I don't know if I've said this before, I've definitely said it somewhere.
但如果你看看伊甸园的整个画面，人们以为花园就是伊甸园。
But if you look at the Garden Of Eden, that whole picture, people think that the garden was Eden.
不，花园是在伊甸园里。
No, the garden was in Eden.
所以伊甸是一种状态，而花园则是一座城。
So Eden was a state and then the garden was a city.
在城市的中心，有一棵生命树和一棵分别善恶的树。
And then at the center of the city, there was this tree of life and then the knowledge of good and evil.
现在，'善恶'这个词是旧约中一个极其重要的主题，善是'tov'，恶是'ra'。
Now that word good and evil is a huge, huge theme through the Old Testament knowledge of good, which is tov and then evil, which is Ra.
所以是'tov'和'ra'。
So tov and Ra.
因此，我们可以把这棵树看作某种东西——为什么上帝要把这棵树放在那里？
So we can look at that tree as being something that why did God put that tree there?
如果上帝创造了它，它就不可能是邪恶的。
If God created it, it can't be evil.
对吧？
Right?
但这是对善恶的认知。
But it's the knowledge of good and evil.
所以我们有时会认为那果实是禁果，但如果上帝创造了它，邪恶就不可能来自上帝。
So sometimes we can think that that fruit was a forbidden fruit, but if God created it, no evil can come from God.
所以如果他创造了它，那它就不可能是邪恶的。
So if he created it, therefore it can't be evil.
他只是明确地告诉他们不要去吃那果实。
It's just that he gave them obviously that declaration that you shouldn't go and eat of the fruit.
夏娃说不能碰它。
Eve said he can't touch it.
上帝从未说过不能碰，只是说不能吃那树上的果子。
God never said that, but you can't eat of that tree.
但请想想那棵树。
But just think of the tree.
这是‘Tov’，意思是好，而‘Ra’则是恶。
It's Tov, which is good, and then Ra, which is evil.
现在，如果你查看希伯来文中的‘Tov’和‘Ra’这两个词，并在旧约的不同经文中观察，你会发现所罗门曾求智慧。
Now, if you look at that word Tov and Ra, and you look at it in different passages in the Old Testament, you see that Solomon asked for wisdom.
他求智慧是为了什么？
And what did he ask for wisdom for?
我必须统治这些人，我需要明白‘Tov’——也就是善，和‘Ra’——也就是恶之间的区别。
Well, I have to rule these people and I need to know the difference between this tov, which is good and Ra, which is evil.
因此，他向神祈求获得分辨善恶的智慧。
So he asked God for the ability to have wisdom to be able to discern between good and evil.
神因他如此祈求而非常喜悦，说：‘我会赐给你智慧，使你能分辨这些。’
And God was so delighted that he asked that and said, I'll give you the wisdom so that you're able to discern that.
然而，伊甸园中有趣的是，亚当和夏娃一开头就从神那里得到了智慧：有一棵树可以吃，有一棵树不可以吃。
Now, the interesting thing in the garden is that Adam and Eve, they're given right off the bat wisdom from God, which is there's the tree that you can eat from, and there's the tree that you can't eat from.
所以，智慧从一开始就是来自神的。
So right off the bat, wisdom came from God.
他教导他们，那棵树不能吃，但这棵树可以吃。
He taught them that you can't eat from that, but you can eat from that.
所以这一点就在这里。
So that is right there.
他们已经具备某种程度的智慧，能够分辨什么是好的，什么是对他们当下不利的。
They already have some level of wisdom to know between good and what is not good for them at the moment.
但随后魔鬼来了，并伪装自己。
But then the devil comes in and he disguises himself.
然后他说：‘上帝说了’，于是他们就吃了那棵树上的果子。
And then he says, as God said, and so then they, you know, take from that tree.
但有趣的是，她摘了树上的果子并吃了下去。
But the interesting thing is she takes from the tree and she eats of it.
突然间，她确实知道了善与恶的区别，但这是通过她自己的智慧和自己的选择获得的。
And then all of a sudden she does know the difference between good and evil, but it's from the lens of her own wisdom and her own taking.
如果他们没有摘那棵树上的果子，他们就会在自己的经历中明白什么是善，什么是恶。
Now, if they didn't pick from the tree, then they would have known in their experience what is good and what is evil.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
是的。
Yeah.
所以上帝给了他们一个机会，让他们根据自己所拥有的做出选择。
So God gives them the opportunity with what he gave them to make a decision.
令人惊讶的是，我昨天才意识到，如果他们没有摘取那棵树上的果子，他们也会通过实践获得对善恶的认识。
And the amazing thing, I mean, this struck me yesterday is that if they didn't take from the tree, they would have received knowledge of good and evil because they're acting it out.
因此，画面显示他们选择了上帝通过智慧告诫他们不要取用的东西。
So the picture is that they take something that God tells them through his wisdom not to take.
结果，他们显然堕落了，并且被隔绝了。
And as a result of it, obviously, they fall and they're separated.
所以他们被驱逐到外面。
So they're ostracized outside.
这实际上是最严重的社会孤立。
It's actually the worst type of social isolation.
社交孤立是人所面临的最糟糕的死亡形式，尤其是在情感或心理层面。
Social isolation is the worst type of death a person, like, in a emotional or or, in a mental state.
社交孤立真的是最糟糕的。
Like, social isolation is like the worst.
因此，他们被隔绝于上帝的生命之外。
So they're isolated from the life of God.
再给我两分钟，让我解释一下这个。
Now just give me two more minutes just to explain this.
不。
No.
这样很好。
It's good.
因为如果你觉得下一个问题是这个的话。
Because if if you think this is the next question.
好的。
Okay.
因此，是那条蛇导致了亚当和夏娃属灵上的死亡或属灵上的分离。
So you have the serpent that caused spiritual death or spiritual separation for Adam and Eve.
问题是，魔鬼为什么想要让亚当和夏娃陷入这种孤立状态？
The question is why did the devil want to cause that isolation with Adam and Eve?
显然，我们可以用这样的说法来解释：他憎恨上帝，想要毁灭上帝的创造。
Obviously, it's like we can use the term or we can use the explanation that he hates God and wants to destroy his creation.
我相信这是真的。
I I believe that to be true.
这一点毫无疑问。
There's no question about it.
但如果你仔细阅读《创世记》，就会发现另一个主题：那就是年长的和年幼的。
But if you look through the book of Genesis, you see another theme, which is you have an older and then you have a younger.
你有一个年长的兄弟，然后有一个年幼的兄弟。
You have an older sibling and then you have a younger sibling.
所以你有以实玛利，然后有以撒。
So you have Ishmael and then you have Isaac.
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你有以扫，也有雅各。
You have Esau and you have Jacob.
你有兄弟们，然后有约瑟。
You have the brothers and then you have Joseph.
在所有这些例子中，神选择了谁？
And in all of those examples, who does God choose?
你有该隐，他是长子，然后有亚伯。
You have Cain, who's the older, and then you have Abel.
那么，谁得到了继承权和神的恩宠？
So who's the one that gets the inheritance and gets the favor from God?
但得着的是幼子。
But the younger does.
后被创造的那一个得到了神的恩宠。
The one who was created later gets the favor from God.
所以，如果你看那条蛇，再看亚当和夏娃，谁先出现，谁后出现？
So if you look at the serpent and then you look at Adam and Eve, who came first and then who came later?
蛇先出现，然后亚当和夏娃才被创造。
Well, the serpent came first and then Adam and Eve came later.
天使被创造了。
The angels were created.
是第四天吗？
Was it day four?
他们被创造，然后亚当和夏娃在第六天被创造。
They were created and then Adam and Eve were created on day six.
所以你看到这样一个主题：年长者渴望并有权继承，但年幼者却蒙神赐予更高的地位和提升。
So you have that theme of the older wanting and having the right to be able to take the inheritance, but then the younger being given some sort of higher elevation and promotion from God.
在所有这些故事中，年长者和年幼者之间都存在着嫉妒和敌意。
And then there's in all those stories, there's jealousy and there's animosity between the older and the younger.
所以在伊甸园的故事里，有蛇，也有人类，但人类却被赋予了对蛇的权柄。
So in that story of the Garden of Eden, you have a serpent and then you have man, but man is given authority over the serpent.
但人类被蛇欺骗了，或者说，被年长者欺骗了。
But man is deceived by the serpent, or we can say the older one.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，他被赶了出去。
And then because of it, he is caused to be kicked out.
随之而来的是一种分离。
And then there's that separation that comes from it.
所以问题是，除了创世记中所有故事都涉及嫉妒和 envy 之外，为什么年长者要欺骗年轻者呢？
So the question is, why does the older one want to deceive the younger one other than all the stories through the book of Genesis is jealousy and envy.
因为是上帝抬举了软弱者或年轻者，而不是按照自然智慧本应被提升、拥有权威的年长者。
Because God is the one who exalts the weaker or the younger over the one who from natural wisdom should be the one who's promoted to be have authority over.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
我知道这可能有点跑题，但只是想说，为什么灵性的死亡进入了世界？
I know this is maybe a little off the topic, but it's just saying like, why did spiritual death come in to the world?
似乎创世记中的主题是，年长者因嫉妒那拥有管辖权的年轻者而如此行事。
And it seems as though that the theme through Genesis, it's because the older is jealous of the one who has the authority over them, which is the younger.
是的。
Yeah.
其中美妙的部分在于，上帝展示了祂赐予生命的能力，尽管嫉妒所带来的对生命的反对依然存在。
And the beautiful part in that is that God demonstrates His ability to give life, even though the opposition to that life, which comes through jealousy, is there.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你仔细想想，嫉妒是如何摧毁一段关系，并使人与生命之源分离的呢？
If you just think about that, like how could jealousy destroy a relationship and separate someone from a life source?
正是因为嫉妒和 envy，才使人与灵性生命真正所需的生命之源断开连接。
All because of jealousy and envy, it can disconnect someone from the life source of what their spiritual life actually really needs.
这是骄傲。
It's pride.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
It is.
是的。
Yeah.
骄傲，这是终极的罪，史蒂文斯牧师称之为‘怪物罪’。
Pride, the ultimate, you know, pastor Stevens called the monster sin.
对吧？
Right?
因为它有能力将我们与真理隔绝。
Because it just has the ability to separate us from truth.
这很有趣。
And it's interesting.
我其实正在查看希腊语中‘罪’这个词‘hermatia’的定义，它暗示着内在的败坏。
I was actually looking at this definition for for sin, hermatia, in the Greek, and it implies, innate corruption.
对吧？
Right?
与上帝的疏离。
Alienation from God.
听听这个，心灵偏离了真理的准则。
And listen to this, erring from the erring of the mind from the rule of truth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
心灵偏离了真理的准则。
Erring of the mind from the rule of truth.
有趣的是，蛇问：‘上帝真的说过吗？’
And interesting that the serpent says, didn't God say?
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他只说了半句真话。
But he only told a half truth.
对吧？
Right?
他让他们的思想偏离了真正的真理
And he caused them to error in their mind from the real truth
嗯。
Mhmm.
就是不要吃那棵树上的果子。
Which was don't eat of that tree.
你一吃那棵树上的果子，死亡的过程就会进入你的身体和灵魂。
The moment you eat of that tree, this process of death is gonna enter into your your body and your soul.
但他们只听到了关于……你知道的，还有明显的嫉妒动机。
But they they heard the part about, you know, and then obviously the jealousy motivation.
魔鬼欺骗亚当和夏娃，除了能增加自己的追随者，建立他的王国之外，还能有什么好处呢？
What advantage would would the devil have of deceiving Adam and Eve other than taking more toll with him, In the sense he's building his, kingdom.
但有时候
But sometimes
我的意思是，如果你仔细想想，很多心怀嫉妒的人，嫉妒其实是害怕失去你已经拥有的东西，怕别人把它夺走。
I mean, if you think about it though, a lot of times people that are envious, like jealousy is fear of losing something that you already attained and someone's going to take away from you.
而羡慕则是害怕你得不到别人拥有的东西。
Envy is fear that you're not going to get what somebody else has.
我的意思是，这完全说得通。
I mean, that makes total sense.
我们把这种情感投射到一个灵体上，那个天使、那个恶魔、那个魔鬼、撒旦，然后我们就问：他为什么要这么做？
Like we put it on a spiritual creature, this angel, this demon, this devil, Satan, And we just say, why would he want to do that?
那就看看你自己的内心吧。
Well, just look at your own heart.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他给你带来的那种骄傲，其实每个人生活中都会体现出来。
I mean, the thing that he's inflicted you with, which is pride, can be played out in everybody's life.
为什么人们会和别人产生矛盾？
Like why do people have problems with other people?
因为要么他们害怕别人会夺走本属于他们的东西，要么他们觉得那个人不配拥有他们没有的东西，而他们又想要。
It's because one, they're afraid that someone's going to take something that belongs to them or two, they don't think that that person deserves something that they don't have and they want it.
对。
Yeah.
同样的事情正在人类身上上演。
So that same thing is being played out in humanity.
这就是几个世纪以来文明的历史：流血事件的发生，正是因为这两个因素——有人拥有你想要的东西，而你认为他们不配拥有，于是你想把它夺走。
And that's just a story of civilization through the centuries that bloodshed occurs because of those two factors that someone has something that you want, and you don't think that they should have it and you want to take it from them.
这就是伊甸园和蛇的故事。
That is the story of the garden and the serpent.
然后，蛇的毒液被注入人类体内，人类便开始重复这一模式。
And then that's the story of the serpent's venom being inflicted into human beings and then them playing it out.
直到今天，无论是在友谊中、家庭中，还是在岳母、父亲、父母、母亲、父亲，或任何你身边的人之间，都是如此。
And even to this day, it doesn't matter if it's a friendship or it's a family or your mother-in-law, your father, your parents, your mom, your dad, your whoever it is, your best friend.
这就是人类历史的故事。
That's the story of human history.
是的。
Yeah.
魔鬼本质上是在说：我不会让他们统治我。
Is that the devil is basically saying, I'm not gonna have them rule over me.
我想要他们拥有的东西。
I want what they have.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我要剥夺他们的自主权和身份。
So I'm going to strip them of their agency and their identity.
令人惊叹的是，他通过诡计欺骗了他们，这也是《创世记》中的另一个主题。
And the amazing thing is, is that he deceives them through trickery, which is another theme in the book of Genesis.
你可以想想《创世记》中某个人伪装自己来操纵他人以获取某些东西的例子，比如他玛。
And you can think of maybe sometime that you've seen in the book of Genesis of someone disguising themselves to manipulate somebody so that they can get something like Tamar.
对。
Yep.
约瑟夫呢？
How about Joseph?
他伪装自己来欺骗兄弟们呢？
How about he disguises himself to his brothers?
但约瑟的故事令人惊叹的是，魔鬼这么做是为了邪恶，而约瑟却用同样的方式行善——他伪装自己来欺骗兄弟，目的是把他们引向美好的结局，而魔鬼的做法恰恰相反。
And then but the amazing thing with Joseph is that the devil did it for evil, but Joseph is going to do it for good that he disguises himself to deceive his brothers to bring them into something that is good, where the devil did it the opposite way.
毛茸茸的手臂。
The hairy arms.
毛茸茸的是雅各和以扫。
The hairy are Jacob and Esau.
这是一种伪装以欺骗的手段。
Like that's a disguise to deceive.
因此，蛇对亚当和夏娃也用了这一招，欺骗了他们。
And so the serpent did that with Adam and Eve and he deceived them.
我认为整个画面——我的意思是，其中内容很多，但生命树与善恶知识的整个图景表明：你将成为你所侍奉的对象。
And I think the whole picture, I mean, there's a lot in there, but the whole picture of the tree of life and then the knowledge of good and evil is that you become what you serve.
他们原本的身份是侍奉神，但他却在他们的身份上欺骗了他们。
So instead of serving God, that was their identity, but he deceived them in their identity.
他说，他们早已拥有他所承诺的一切。
He says they already had everything that he was offering them.
是的。
Yeah.
他说：‘你们将如神一样。’
He said, will be like a God.
猜猜怎么样？
Well, guess what?
他们已经按神的形象造了。
They're already in the image of God.
你们将知道善恶。
You will know good from evil.
猜猜怎么样？
Well, guess what?
他早已告诉他们善恶的初步知识，之后还要教导他们更多。
He already told them the first steps of good and evil, and then he was going to teach them even more.
是的。
Yeah.
但魔鬼诱惑他们，使他们认为自己的身份并非上帝所宣告的那样，并且他们必须出去获取上帝禁止他们取用的东西。
But the devil tempted them that their identity wasn't what God told them it was, and that they had to go out and take something that God told them not to take.
其结果是，正如《诗篇》一百一十五篇所说，敬拜偶像的人会变得像偶像一样。
And the result of it is that, like it says in Psalm one fifteen, the people that worship idols will become like the idols.
他们将善恶知识树置于上帝之上。
They put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil above God.
因此，这成为了他们的终极神明，他们也变得像那棵树一样，这正是他们赤身裸体时发生的事。
Therefore, that became their ultimate God and they became like that tree, which is what happens as soon as they're naked.
他们摘下无花果树的叶子，披在身上，于是就变成了善恶知识树。
They take the fig leaves from the tree and they put it on them and they become the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
这是一种扭曲，他们本应与耶和华建立关系，却转而取代了这种关系。
So it's a it's a perversion of replacing what they should be having a relationship with, which is Yahweh.
现在，他们突然与善恶知识建立了关系，而这仅仅意味着他们想要像神一样。
And now all of a sudden they're having a relationship with the knowledge of good and evil, which is just that they want to be like gods.
是的。
Yeah.
我们看到这个主题一再出现。
We see this theme repeated.
你看到魔鬼在欺骗。
You see the devil deceiving.
我们被一些接近真理但并非真理的事物所欺骗。
We are deceived by something that is close to the truth, but is not the truth.
而这一切源于骄傲与傲慢，最终目标是与上帝的事物分离。
And it is pride and arrogance, and the ultimate goal is separation from the things of God.
恩典是天使无法唱出的歌。
Grace is a song that the angels cannot sing.
对吧？
Right?
我们得到了这份恩典，可以重新站起来。
We have this grace that's been given to us that we can rebound.
那些被创造得完美的天使却没有这样的机会。
The angels who were created in perfection don't get that opportunity.
那些堕落的天使，三分之一跟随路西法堕落的天使。
The ones that fell, a third of the angels that fell with Lucifer.
对。
Right.
他们得不到这个机会。
They don't get that.
所以那里存在着嫉妒。
So there's jealousy there.
在列王纪上第18章，当以色列人被咬时，他们被吩咐要仰望铜蛇。
In first Kings 18, when the Israelites are bitten, what are they told to do but to look unto the brazen altar the brazen serpent.
是的。
Yeah.
这样他们就能从上头得生命。
So that they would receive life from above.
所以我认为，我们在这里讨论的这个画面包含两个部分：这一切背后的动机是什么？
So I think, like, the picture that we're talking about here has two parts, like what was the motivation behind it all?
但作为生活在2026年的人类，我们可能在灵里迟钝、听不见、看不见，与上帝隔绝，却仍有生命进入我们，处理这一切，这究竟意味着什么？
But then also, as human beings living in the year 2026, what does it mean that we could be spiritually dumb, deaf, blind, alienated from God, and yet have life enter into us that deals with all of that?
那么，你会对今天看着自己的生活、说‘我根本不明白为什么上帝会在意’的人说什么呢？
So what what would you say to a person today who's looking at their life and saying, don't even understand how why does God even care?
那目的又是什么？
And what's the purpose?
我为什么还要，你知道的，为什么要面对这些事？
And why am I even, you know, why am I even dealing with this stuff?
我根本无法了解上帝的任何事。
I can't know anything about God.
但《传道书》里说，人人都在渴求永生。
Well, think because it says in the book of Ecclesiastes that everyone is crying out for eternal life.
在人心深处，有一个空洞在呼喊：我不愿死去。
So in the heart of man is this hole that is crying out that I don't want to die.
是的。
Yes.
我敢肯定每个人都经历过这种感受，尤其是当你有了孩子之后，你会意识到，年轻时比如二十多岁，你觉得自己不怕死。
I'm sure everybody's had those experiences, especially I think when you have kids, that the fear of death, like when you're in your twenties, you're like, I'm not afraid of death.
害怕得要命。
Terrified.
是的，你觉得自己刀枪不入。
Yeah, you're indestructible.
你对死亡有一种自大而轻率的态度，但当你开始有了孩子，你就会意识到，死亡其实就在身边。
You have this kind of chauvinistic cavalier attitude attitude towards death, but then you start to have kids and you realize, wow, death is like something that's just right around the corner.
我就站在悬崖边上。
I'm on the precipice of it.
这种感受存在于每一个人身上。
So that's something that's in every single human being.
不管别人怎么说，他们都不怕死。
It doesn't matter what people say, I'm not afraid about death.
你其实害怕死亡。
You are afraid of death.
是的。
Yeah.
毫无疑问
There's no question about
这一点。
it.
对。
Yes.
但每个人内心都有一种对永生的渴望。
But there is something in everybody that is crying out for eternal life.
所以即使你说，我不怕死，因为死后什么都没有。
So even if you say, I'm not afraid of death because there's just nothing after this.
那只是一场漫长的睡眠。
It's just a long sleep.
但那个人内心深处知道，他们并非只为活着然后死去而被创造，而是被造来活着，然后永远活着。
There's something in that person that knows they're not created just to live and then die, but rather they're made to live and then live forever.
所以，这是一种每个人内心都有的召唤或渴望。
So that is something that is a calling or a longing that is in everybody.
就像C.
Like C.
S.
S.
刘易斯说过，我想是在他写的《荣耀的重量》这本书里。
Lewis puts it, I think it's in the Weight of Glory, that book that he wrote.
他描述了一个令人惊叹的场景，他说人们曾经拥有的美好时光，比如，当你还是个孩子的时候去看棒球赛。
He talks this amazing scene, and he said that the good times that people have had, like, let's just say for instance, you go to the ballgame when you're a little kid.
你去观看棒球赛，还记得小时候走进体育场时的情景，那真是神奇无比。
And you go to the ballgame and you remember going into the stadium when you're a little kid and you go into the ballpark and it's just magical.
是的。
Yeah.
人们，你还记得当时沿着走廊往下看吗？
People do you remember looking down the corridor?
作为成年人，你仍然能感受到那种氛围，但效果已经不一样了。
You still kinda get it as an adult, but it doesn't have the same effect.
但我记得自己走进球场时，手里拿着我的小手套。
But I remember walking into the ballpark, I got my little glove.
我当时十岁。
I'm 10 years old.
我沿着小走廊走向我们的座位。
I walked down the little corridor to get to our seats.
我们家很穷，所以坐在最高的看台，也就是‘鼻出血区’。
We were poor, so we're up in the nosebleeds.
当你走出来时，看到那片绿油油的草地、内野和球员们。
And you walk out and you see the green grass and you see the diamond and you see the players.
那种感觉，小时候真的非常神奇。
Well, there's something in that that was magical as a little kid.
当你回去试图重温那种体验，再走过那条走廊，看到那片绿草时，它依然存在，但比小时候淡薄多了。
That when you go back and try to relive that experience and you walk down the corridor and you see the green grass, it still has it, but it's much more faint than when you were younger.
所以你意识到，真正重要的不是事物本身，而是它在个体心中唤起的对更深层事物的渴望。
So you realize that it's not the thing itself, but it's the thing that produced the longing in the individual for something that is more.
这其中有一种渴望。
There's a longing to it.
这几乎像是音乐或歌曲本身带有某种东西。
It's almost as though that the music or the song has something.
并不是歌曲本身，而是它在个体心中激起的渴望。
It's not the song itself, but it's the longing that's produced in the individual.
刘易斯说，这种渴望是永恒在向人内心发声，人内心确实有这种渴望，这是一件美好的事。
And Lewis says that that is eternity speaking to the individual that's in them, that they have this longing, which is a beautiful thing.
如果你没有渴望，那你就是死的。
If you don't have longing, you're just dead.
但作为个体，我们都有这种渴望，觉得一定还有更多东西。
But as individuals, we have this longing that there must be something more.
但圣经说，属血气的人并不会真正去回应这种渴望，也不会认为它真的重要。
But the Bible says that the natural man doesn't really engage with that, doesn't really think as though that it's important.
是的
Yeah.
但当他们面临死亡的边缘并问出这个问题时：人生的意义到底是什么？
But when they come to the precipice of death and they ask the question, what is life all about?
我为什么在这里？
Why am I here?
这些问题都是源自内心的渴望，表明一定还有更多，正如《传道书》所说，这是刻在人心中的永恒。
Those questions are longing coming from the person saying there must be something more, which the book of Ecclesiastes says eternity that's in the heart of the individual.
因此，2026年最好的起点是研读圣经，考察宇宙的起源、创造的秩序，以及创造中发生了什么，使我们陷入这种无法被今生任何事物满足的深层渴望，而唯有通过这本书才能得到解答，是的。
So the best place to start in 2026 is to look at the Bible and to look at the origins of the cosmology, the order of creation, and then what happened in creation to put us in a place that we have these deep longings that can't be satisfied by anything in this life that can only be answered through a book Yeah.
它解释了你为何破碎，那空洞是什么，那召唤是什么，以及答案是谁——那就是基督。当你得着基督时，你会意识到，在他里面，即使你无法明确说出，这几乎就像谁说过的话？
That is explaining why you're broken and then what that hole is, what that calling is, and then who the answer is, which is Christ, that when you get Christ, you realize that in him, even if you can't identify, almost it's like who did who said it?
是不是切斯特顿说过，每个站在妓女门前的男人，其实都在寻找永恒的生命与爱？
Was it Chesterton that said that every man that every man that is at the precipice of a prostitute's door is looking for eternal life and love.
我想是切斯特顿说的。
I think it was Chesterton.
我可能在这方面是错的。
I could be wrong on that.
这 definitely 是我表达这个意思的方式。
And that's definitely my own version of how to say it.
但对更多事物的渴望，正是对战胜死亡的渴望。
But that longing for something more is that longing to overcome death.
这正是经文所要表达的基本含义。
That's what the scripture is basically saying.
人们不会这样表述，甚至可能根本不会有这种感受。
People aren't gonna word it like that, or they're not even gonna feel that.
但当你阅读经文时，经文却反过来映照出你内心真正的恐惧。
But when you read the scripture and then the scripture mirrors back to you, that is actually what I'm afraid of.
这实际上正是我所寻找的。
That is actually what I'm looking for.
而这一切只能在被称为基督的那位身上找到，祂就是永恒的生命，我能重新得回伊甸园。
And it can only be found in this person called Christ who is eternal life and I can regain the Garden of Eden Yeah.
通过基督。
Through Christ.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是答案。
That is the answer.
这就是我们在谈论的内容。
This is what we're we're talking.
但大多数人只是掩盖它，生活在某种麻木状态中——‘麻木’这个词用得对吗？
But most people just cover that up and are malaise had lived in some sort of, like, malaise in their is that even a word?
麻木？
Malaise?
他们生活在一种麻木中，像雾一样，一种不愿深入探究那种真正召唤或疑问的阴郁感——这一切究竟是为什么？
Like, they live in a malaise, like a fog, dreariness of not wanting to poke down to that actual calling or question of why, what is this all about?
为什么我内心感觉如此死亡，与外界除了这个正在消逝的物质世界之外毫无联系？
And why do I feel inside actually dead and not connected to anything outside of just the physical world, which is passing away?
这很悲剧，因为人们一直在追求幸福。
And it's tragic because people are in the pursuit of happiness.
对吧？
Right?
他们一直在追求，正如你所说，那个去妓女门口的人，他寻找的是一种如此短暂的满足或成就感。
They're in the pursuit constantly, as you said, the man at the door of the prostitutes, he's looking for some kind of satisfaction or fulfillment that is so temporary.
对吧？
Right?
这其中根本没有真正的满足。
It's like there's no real satisfaction in it.
他找到了上帝，意识到自己一直缺乏的，是心中那片永恒的空缺，那颗被设计成上帝形状的心，他却试图用所有能想象到的东西去填补。
He finds God and he sees that the thing that he was lacking, the eternity that was created in his heart, that was heart shaped or God shaped that he's trying to fill with every imaginable thing.
那为什么毒品如此普遍？
And this is, why are drugs so prevalent?
为什么酒精如此普遍？
Why is alcohol so prevalent?
为什么对成功的渴望如此普遍？
Why is the lust for success so prevalent?
所有这些事情。
All these things.
你赢得世界杯冠军，举起奖杯时，并不会说：‘我这一生都满足了。’
You win a World Cup championship and you hold that trophy up, you don't go, Oh, I'm satisfied for life.
那些人迫不及待地想要开始下一场比赛。
Those guys can't wait to start for the next one.
他们问汤姆·布雷迪：你最喜欢哪一次冠军？
They asked Tom Brady, what was your favorite championship?
他说：下一次。
And he said, The next one.
所以我想提出这一点。
So I'd throw that out there.
那里有点爱国者队的影子。
It's a little Patriot stock in there.
我们这周有休息周，所以还不需要做任何预测。
We have the off week this week, so we don't need to give any predictions yet.
是的，超级碗快到了。
Yes, Super Bowl is coming up.
每个人，诚实地讲，每个人都应该收听我们的预测，不是我的，是你们的。
Everybody, honestly, everybody should be tuning in to listen to what our predictions are, not mine, yours.
实际上，因为你这个赛季表现太出色了。
Actually because you've on fire this season.
实际上，我们在那之前不会再有另一期节目了。
Actually, we are not gonna have another show before the
哦，不做了？
Oh, we're not?
好吧。
Okay.
今天是星期一。
Well, this is Monday.
对吧？
Right?
星期一，然后下一次是超级碗后的那个星期一。
Monday and then the next one is the following Monday of the Super Bowl.
所以我想，是的，这是真的。
So I guess, yeah, that's true.
所以我们之前说过，上周那场比赛太棒了。
So we did say, we commented on how awesome that game was last week.
我的意思是，那简直太精彩了。
I mean, it was incredible.
那简直难以置信。
It was unbelievable.
是的，确实如此。
Yeah, it really was.
那简直难以置信。
It was unbelievable.
只是后来下的雪。
Just the snow that came in.
如果你看看上半场和下半场的照片，我从未见过这样的情况。
If you look at the picture of the first half versus the second half, I've never seen anything like it.
我觉得。
I think.
这正是我刚才说的。
That's what I was talking about.
这正是你刚才说的。
That's what you were talking about.
好的。
Okay.
让我们为这里的观众揭开帷幕吧，上周的节目是在周五预先录制的，如果你到现在还没发现的话。
So let's peel back the curtain for the folks here that last week's show was prerecorded on Friday, in case you didn't figure that out by now.
所以你基本上是在说你有预知未来的能力。
So you're basically saying that you have the ability to prophesy.
嗯，周五讲的。
Well, spoke on Friday.
我们说那场比赛不可思议，就好像我们是在周一做的一样。
We said that game was unbelievable as if we were doing it on Monday.
你还说我在你的T恤里穿越了苔原。
You also said I drove through the tundra in your t shirt.
我滑了雪。
I skied.
我滑了雪。
I skied.
你穿过苔原滑了雪。
You skied through
穿着你的T恤穿越苔原。
tundra in your t shirt.
是的。
Mhmm.
但事实上，当意识到这是一场前所未见的比赛时，这个节目变得精彩多了。
But it made actually, the show was so much better realizing that it was a game like nobody had ever seen.
天气从能见度极佳突然变成了刺眼的暴风雪。
It went from perfect visibility to, like, a blinding snowstorm.
它
It
太疯狂了。
was insane.
那是一场10比7的比赛，这
It was a 10 to seven game, which is
我的意思是，这进攻简直了。
I mean, talk about offense.
我的意思是，这比赛无聊到极点。
I mean, it was just unbelievably boring.
我的意思是，根本没什么动静。
I mean, there was nothing going on.
他们连球都移动不了。
They couldn't even move the ball.
但让我惊讶的是，那些防守球队在雪地中滑倒，却没让对方完成一次长传进攻，他们连传球都超不过10码。
But the thing that I was amazed by was the defenses that didn't give up a big play, slipping in the snow, but they couldn't throw it more than 10 yards.
是的。
So Yeah.
所以大家都一直在说西雅图、西雅图，因为他们一直表现得如此强势。
So everybody's been saying, you know, Seattle, Seattle, Seattle because they've been so dominant.
等等。
Oh, wait.
在你家。
In your house.
在我家。
In my house.
维罗妮卡来自华盛顿。
Veronica's from Washington.
她是海鹰队的球迷吗？
She's a is she a Seahawks fan?
她会告诉你的。
She will tell you.
我不会替她说话，但我还是要说。
I won't put words in her mouth, but I'm gonna anyways.
她会告诉你，她一直关注比赛，因为和我结婚三十三年来，我们几乎只聊这个。
She will tell you that she follows the paths because thirty three years of being married to me, that's really all we've talked about.
眨眼。
Wink.
眨眼。
Wink.
是的。
Yeah.
但她是不会输的。
Mean But she can't lose.
坐下。
Down.
我觉得她是海鹰队的粉丝。
I think she's a Seahawks fan.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我告诉她，不要因为我而成为爱国者队的粉丝。
I I told her don't become a Pats fan just because of me.
你得找到属于自己的与上帝同行的方式。
You gotta find your own walk with God.
她也会找到属于自己的电视来看比赛。
And she's gonna to find her own TV to watch it on too.
这基本上就是你说的有趣之处。
That's basically what you say is interesting
对你来说，奥克曼。
to you, Oxman.
有时候，无论我看什么运动，最近一次是波士顿棕熊队。
That there are times when whatever sport I'm watching, the other most recently, it was the Boston Bruins.
他们以4比0领先。
They were up four zero.
她走过来跟我说：哦，棕熊队在比赛。
She And came and said, oh, the Bruins are on.
他走过来坐在我旁边，比分变成了4比1。
He came and sat next to me and it became 41.
然后变成了4比2。
Then it became 42.
我对维罗妮卡说：我爱你。
And I said, Veronica, I love you.
回你刚才待的地方去吧。
Go back to wherever you were.
所以我们之间有默契。
So we just have an understanding.
当比赛变得紧张时，她就会走开
When the games get tense, she goes
我觉得这将会是一场
I think it's gonna be a
精彩的比赛。
great game.
确实是。
It is.
但别小看了宠物队。
But don't count out the Pets.
我就说这么多。
That's all I'm gonna say.
不。
No.
当然。
For sure.
我的意思是，我不知道为什么。
I mean, I don't know why.
我的意思是，西雅图的防守看起来不错。
I mean, Seattle's defense looks good.
但确实如此。
But Yeah.
唐纳德，我的意思是，尽管大家都对他百般挑剔，但他最近几场比赛表现得相当出色。
Donald, I mean, he's been looking pretty good the last couple games even though everyone's given him a hard time.
他根本没有能力赢得超级碗或者打进超级碗。
Like, he doesn't have the ability to win the Super Bowl or get to the Super Bowl.
嗯，他
Well, he
你的防守，西雅图的防守确实看起来相当强悍。
does Your defense Seattle's defense does look pretty gnarly.
当他还在喷气机队时，他曾打过一场对阵爱国者队的著名比赛，嗯。
He does have a famous game with the the Patriots when he was a Jet Mhmm.
他当时说他看到幽灵了，因为他在防守端被四面八方猛攻。
Where his comment was, I'm seeing ghosts out there because he was just getting hammered from every side on defense.
所以我觉得这有点是喷气机队的问题。
So I think that's a little was on the Jets.
我的意思是，我觉得每个四分卫在喷气机队都会有这种经历。
I mean, I think that's every quarterback's experience, like, being on the Jets.
我的意思是，连亚伦·罗杰斯也只撑了两回合。
I mean, even Aaron Rodgers only last two plays.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yep.
我们谈的是喷气机队。
We did the Jets.
掉球了。
The fumble.
的的
The the
嗯，马克·桑切斯，
Well, Mark Sanchez,
这确实是的。
which is Yeah.
这
The
掉球。
fumble.
我们就叫它掉球吧。
We'll just call it the fumble.
好的。
Okay.
这是一个儿童防护程序，所以我们不能说‘屁股掉球’。
This a this is a childproof program, so we can't say the derriere fumble.
对。
Right.
好吧，各位，我觉得我们差不多已经搞定了，对吧？
Well, folks, I think we pretty much have a Are we?
抱歉。
Sorry.
刚才有点乱七八糟的。
That was all over the place.
不。
No.
这是有录音的。
This is recorded.
所以我的意思是，如果你想要重新开始，那我们就重来，不过我是在开玩笑。
So I mean, if you want to just start it over again, we get no, I'm just joking.
抱歉，我们只是在玩闹。
Sorry, we're just having fun.
我们是的。
We are.
我的意思是，做这个节目的乐趣之一，就是我们怀有的巨大希望。
I mean, the great hope that part of the fun of doing the show is
那。
that
我们拥有快乐。
we have joy.
我们确实有。
We do.
我们拥有生命，并为此感到高兴。
We have life and we're happy about that.
我们可以谈论深刻的话题，但同时我们也能欢笑，因为我们对基督的保障是永恒的。
And we can talk about deep things, but at the same time, we can laugh because our security in Christ is eternal.
尽管魔鬼希望我们相信，我们会失去这种保障，或者失去我们的快乐，但事实是，我们可以每天来到神面前。
And as much as the devil would like us to believe that we can lose that security or that we can lose our, you know, our joy, The truth of the matter is that we can come to God on a daily basis.
我们早上醒来时，并不是在说：我必须重新开始，为我的罪献上新的祭物。
We wake up in the morning and we're not saying I have to start fresh and create a new sacrifice for my sins.
我们可以对神说：我献上赞美的祭，感谢你已经处理了这个问题。
We can say to God, I offer up the sacrifice of my praise and thank you that you've dealt with that issue.
我可以与你保持清新的关系，与你建立亲密的连接。
I can be fresh with you and I can have relationship with you.
然后我们活出这美好的生命。
And then we have this awesome life that we walk in.
是的。
Yeah.
这太棒了。
It's so great.
我的意思是，另一件值得思考的事，我知道我们快结束了，但关于灵里得活这个概念。
I mean, the the other thing to think about, I know we're closing, but this whole idea of being spiritually alive.
哥林多前书第二章真是个绝佳的经文。
First Corinthians two is just a great place.
我的意思是，这一章我常常对自己说，如果这是真实的——而它确实是——那这简直是最大的秘密。
I mean, that's a chapter that I say to myself, if this is real, which it is, this is the most unbelievable secret.
这是最不可思议的现实：人们活在世上，自己灵里是活的，却和那些灵里死亡的人同行。
This is the most unbelievable reality that people can walk around life and they have they're spiritually alive and they're walking around with people that are spiritually dead.
是的。
Yes.
这到底意味着什么？
What does that actually mean?
对。
Yeah.
如果一个人是死的，而另一个是活的，活的人能感受、看见、听见、经历、品尝那些东西
If if if it's like a dead person and it'll it's like the person who's alive feels things, sees things, hears things, experiences things, tastes things
是的。
Yeah.
这些都是属血气的人无法看见的。
That are invisible to the natural man.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
当然。
Absolutely.
这是真的。
It is true.
当然。
Absolutely.
这能解释为什么有些人朝这个方向走，而其他人看着他们，却问：为什么他们走那个方向？
Does that explain maybe why some people are walking this direction and other people are looking at them and saying, why are they walking that direction?
看起来，那些灵性敏锐且灵性活着的人是少数，而灵性死亡的人是多数。
It does seem as though the the people that are spiritually attuned and spiritually alive are the minority and the spirit people that are spiritually dead are the majority.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，少数人正在行走并看见一些自然人看不见的东西。
So the minority is walking and seeing just something that no the natural man doesn't see.
好消息是，这周还有四场节目，他们会讨论
And the good news is there's four more shows this week where they are going to
他们最好清理一下我们
They better clean up what we
刚才这四十五分钟里所讲的内容。
just did in that forty five minutes.
他们将谈论如何属灵地活着。
They are gonna talk about being spiritually alive.
那么，我们到底在说什么？回顾、回顾和总结一下，嗯。
So what are we what are we saying recouping recouping and and recapping Mhmm.
我们曾经在罪中死去。
That we were dead in our sins.
对吧？
Right?
我们曾与上帝隔绝。
We were alienated from God.
我们不是那些需要一点激励的好人。
We weren't good people that needed a little boost.
我们曾死在罪恶中。
We were dead in our sins.
若不流血，我们就不可能恢复与上帝的相交关系。
That there was no possibility that we could be restored to the place of fellowship with God without the shedding of blood.
对吧？
Right?
没有血的浇洒，就没有罪的赦免。
Without the shedding of the blood, there is no remission of sins.
我们知道，若非上帝恩典地赐予我们永生，我们就不可能与祂建立关系。
We knew that without God's gift of eternal life being given to us graciously that we would not have the opportunity to have relationship with Him.
正因为如此，我们才拥有这生命，这生命是奇妙的，我们拥有上帝作为我们属灵儿女所赐予我们的一切产业。
And because of that, we do have this life and that life is an amazing life where we have all of the things that God has given to us as part of our inheritance in Him as adult children.
谢谢你，耶稣。
So thank you, Jesus.
谢谢你，耶稣。
Thank you, Jesus.
太棒了。
That was fantastic.
加油，爱国者队。
Go, Pats.
还有对维罗妮卡，加油，海鹰队。
And for Veronica, go Seahawks.
是的。
Yeah.
你们所有人
All of you guys
都不会
are not
这么说的。
gonna say that.
在外面。
Out there.
我正在祈祷，
I'm praying that
你能享受这场比赛。
you enjoy the game.
塞巴斯蒂安，谢谢你恩典与怜悯。
Sebastian, just thank you for your grace and mercy.
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