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欢迎收看恩典时刻基督教节目，我们将学习关于信仰的实用内容，本周我们首先来谈谈门徒训练。
Welcome to the Grace Hour Christian show where we're gonna learn just practical things about our faith, and we're starting off the week this week just talking about discipleship.
我不确定这是否确切是标题——门徒训练，但指的是父亲、弟兄们，是的。
I don't know if that's the title necessarily, discipleship, but it's fathers, brothers Yeah.
以及在生活中拥有属灵同伴的重要性。
And just the importance of having spiritual people in our life.
从自然的角度来说，我们生命中都有作为榜样的父亲。
Naturally speaking, we have fathers in our life that are examples.
而在属灵层面上，在教会中，当我们行走于信仰之中、跟随基督时。
And then also, spiritually speaking in the church, when we walk in our faith and we're following Christ.
腓立比书第二章，保罗指出基督是我们所有人的榜样，祂是完美的。
Philippians chapter two, Paul lays out that Christ is the example for all of us, and he's perfect.
作为人类，我们并不完美。
And as human beings, we're not perfect.
因此，祂是我们的目标，也是我们的榜样。
So he is the goal, and he is the example.
但我们还需要像我们一样不完美的人，其他普通人。
But we also need people that are imperfect like ourselves, other human beings.
保罗在腓立比书第二章中提到，我们生命中不同的男性可以成为我们效仿的榜样。
And Paul lays out in Philippians chapter two to just talking about how we have different men in our lives that can be examples that we can aim for.
使徒保罗是个很好的榜样，他曾对哥林多人和腓立比人说：我希望你们的生活像我一样，言语像我一样，因为我跟随基督，我也希望你们跟随我。
And the apostle Paul is a great example because he said to the Corinthians and also to the Philippians that I want you guys to live your life doing what I do and speaking the way that I speak because I follow Christ, I want you to follow me.
所以我们今天要讨论这个话题。
So we're gonna be talking about today.
今天在演播室里，我们请到了科顿·赫布，我们将进行一场精彩的对话。
And in the studio today, we got Colton Herb, and we're gonna be having a great conversation.
我们今天的方式是通过一个基督教组织，帮助教会开展门徒训练，进入教会培训那些灵性成熟的男性，让他们成为教会中的榜样，为其他较年轻的男性或灵性正在成长的人提供指引，让他们在生活中有目标，帮助他们成长，这种品格和生命特质，我们称之为基督。
And the way we're gonna do this today Organization, Christian organization that helps churches with discipleship and going into churches and just training up men that are spiritually mature that are those examples in the church that can be examples for other younger men or just people that are, spiritually developing and just need someone in their life that can be a target and just help them along the way so that they can grow in that nature and character, which we call Christ.
谢谢你的到来。
So thanks for coming.
当然。
Absolutely.
谢谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
是的。
Yeah.
给我们简单介绍一下吧。
So give us a little run through.
我们上个周末过得很好。
We had a good weekend this past weekend.
你帮了我们一把。
You helped us out.
你将帮助我们在费希尔的教会开展事工，是的。
You're gonna be helping us out with our church down at Fethill Yeah.
主要是做门训，因为这是巨大的需求。
Just with discipleship because it's such a huge need.
在过去的几年里，有不少人来找我，说：嘿。
In the last couple of years, there's been a number of guys that have come to me and said, hey.
我只是需要一个导师。
I just need a mentor.
我只是需要生活中有一个人能让我对他负责，因为我们有很多年轻人，他们刚信主，正在寻找方向。
I just need someone in my life that I can be accountable to because we do have a lot of young men, and we have a lot of young men that are just starting off in their faith, and they're looking for direction.
他们从讲台上获得指引。
And they get direction from the pulpit.
他们通过圣经学习获得指引。
They get direction with Bible studies.
他们从牧养中获得指引，但他们渴望生活中有一些个人化的支持。
They get direction pastorally, but they want something personal in their life.
这正是你在做的事情。
So this is what you're doing.
上个周末你给我们做了培训，那真是个绝佳的时机。
And you gave us training this past weekend, which is a great time.
你觉得这个周末怎么样？
What do think about the weekend?
那真是太棒了。
It was it was great.
我真的很享受这次活动。
I really enjoyed it.
我觉得，每次能和一群男生在周末聚在一起，聊点真实的生活，总能让我充满能量。
I think something that always, like, fills my cup is getting getting on a weekend with a group of guys and just talk in real life.
我们都不完美，对吧？
Like, we all we're not perfect.
对。
Right?
所以就是远离日常，聊聊生活中真实的问题——我们哪里在挣扎，哪里做得还不错，然后一起制定一些实际行动步骤，来提升自己，让我们的信仰更坚定，不管是什么方面。
So it's just going going away, talking through what's real in life, where we're struggling, where we're doing okay, and then just kinda making action steps on how we work and get better, you know, get stronger in our faith, whatever it may be.
成为更好的丈夫，更好的父亲，我们每个人都有提升的空间。
Better husbands, right, better fathers, like we all have room to improve.
所以，坦诚地指出这些问题，互相帮助成长，彼此督促进步。
So just kinda calling those things out, being transparent, and then helping each other grow and holding each other accountable to it.
所以，是的，我特别喜欢这个周末。
So, yeah, I love this weekend.
很有趣，尤其是和我认识的人一起。
It was fun, especially with, like, people I knew.
有时候我会参加一些小组活动，但其实并不太认识那些人。
Sometimes I do it for groups and I don't really know the guys.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这个周末，我哥哥也来了。
But this weekend, like, my brother was there.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我是说，和一些我从小一起长大的兄弟们待在一起。
I mean, hanging out with some of the other guys that I've been around all my life.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以能和他们随便聊聊，花时间在一起，深入了解他们正在经历的困难，看看我如何能提供帮助，这真的太棒了。
So it's really cool to, like, just kinda chop it up and spend time with them and dive into things that they're struggling with and how I can help in any way.
这是一次我从未有过的体验。
It was a experience I've never had before.
首先，你给我们找了个超棒的地方。
First off, you got us a sick place.
我们当时在西马里兰。
We're out in it was Western Maryland.
不对。
No.
是宾夕法尼亚州南部。
Southern PA.
是的。
Yeah.
你还给我们安排了一栋不错的房子。
And you got us a nice house.
给我们提供了顶级的饮食。
Fed us top notch.
没错。
Right.
那简直太不可思议了。
That was unreal.
我们当时身处一个完全不同的环境中。
And we were just there in a completely different environment.
你们在做这种培训时的方式是，我们刚开始时，是的。
And the way that you guys do it when you do this training we're just starting off Yeah.
和你们一起工作。
Working with you guys.
你们的做法是让我们彻底换一个环境、一个地方、一种节奏。
And the way that you do it is that we go away completely different environment, different place, different pace.
对。
Yep.
我们只是在一个周六坐在客厅里。
And we just sat in a living room on a Saturday.
我们周五晚上到的。
We got there Friday night.
是的。
Yeah.
玩得很开心，然后我们就坐在客厅里。
Had a great time, and then we just sat in a living room.
幸运的是，你们家的客厅也很棒。
And thank God you got a nice living room too.
我的意思是，我们有那些舒适的懒人沙发，所有人围成一圈坐在一个美丽的地方，是的。
I mean, we had those nice lazy boys, and all of us were just sitting in a circle in a beautiful place Yeah.
在乡下。
Out in the country.
我们就聊了大约八个小时。
And we just chopped it up for eight hours or so.
那真是一件了不起的事。
And that was an amazing thing.
这个练习让我们稍微回顾了这些年来我们与基督同行的信仰历程。
That exercise tell a little bit about the exercise that we did just with our faith walk with Christ over the years.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，在第二节课中，我们会进行一个练习，就是把你的信仰历程从开始到现在画出来。
So, like, one of the exercises you do in, I think it's session two, we jump into, like, map your faith out, like, from the beginning to where you are now.
我特别喜欢这个练习，因为它真的让你有机会认真思考：上帝在我的生命中做了什么，才让我现在坐在这把懒人椅上，参加这次退修会。
And I love that exercise because you actually takes gives you a chance to actually critically think of like, what did God do in my life to get me to actually like sitting in this lazy boy at that retreat.
对吧？
Right?
甚至回顾我的人生，我会想：哦，这就是上帝显现的地方。
And even for my life, I look back and I'm like, oh, this is where God showed up.
这就是我做出错误决定的地方。
This is where I made a bad decision.
对吧？
Right?
当你梳理出来并回顾时，你会意识到，事情并没有我当初以为的那么顺利，也没我最终到达这个位置时看起来那么简单。
And as you map that out and you're looking at it, you're like, yeah, it wasn't as easy, you know, as I maybe thought it was or how I ended up at this spot.
但回望过去，能让你清晰地看到上帝带你走过的路。
But looking back gives you such great perspective of where God's brought you from.
因为有时候我觉得，我们很容易忽略这一点。
Because sometimes I think we lose focus of that.
我们太专注于当下或未来，却从不花点时间回头看看：上帝曾在这里显现。
We get so focused with like what's going on now or what the future is, but we never take a chance just to look back for a minute and be like, God showed up here.
祂在这里救赎了我。
He he redeemed me here.
祂在那里赦免了我。
He forgave me there.
你知道，祂在这里拯救了我的婚姻。
You know, he's he saved my marriage here.
拯救了我的信仰之旅。
Saved my faith walk in general.
我觉得这对我来说非常重要，曾经有一段时间，我在大学期间离开了教会，那时我虽然仍然相信上帝，但并没有真正追求祂。
I think that's something huge for me, like taking there was a season when I kind of stepped away from church through college in those times, and I wasn't really I mean, I still believed in God, but it was it wasn't I wasn't after him.
对吧？
Right?
我并没有真正地追寻祂。
I wasn't really chasing him.
那时我的生活非常混乱。
And there was that season I could my life was wild.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就在那时，攻击临到了我。
And that's when I could the attacks were coming against me.
撒旦在攻击我。
Satan was on me.
那时候，我爸爸坐在我对面，跟我来了一次严肃的谈话。
And there was that, like, I have a hard stop where my dad, like, sat me down across the table.
他问我：‘你到底在干什么？’
He's like, what are you doing?
那种感觉就像审讯一样，只有一盏灯照着你。
Like, I'll never like, it was like that, like, interrogator, like, the one lights on.
那种严肃的对话，就是问我：‘你到底在干什么？’
Like, that hard conversation, like, what are you doing?
对。
Right.
那完全改变了我的想法，因为我的身份认同一直建立在游泳上。
And that was like a whole switch in my mind because my identity was in swimming.
我的身份是上大学，你知道的。
My identity was going to college, you know.
我的身份就是一名顶尖游泳运动员，但这一切都崩塌了。
That's what my identity was is I was this big time swimmer, and that all came to rubble.
但那其实很棒。
And it was great though.
那是个转折点，让我去仓库工作。
Got turning point, how to go work in a warehouse.
感觉我就像那个浪子，正在喂猪一样。
Like, felt like I was at, like, prodigal son a little bit, like feeding the pigs.
我在仓库里，汗如雨下，装运拖车。
Like, I'm in a warehouse, like, sweating like crazy, loading tractor trailers.
我以为自己是那种人，但后来发现，我根本不是，但上帝用那段经历塑造了我。
Like, I was I thought I was this, but then come to find out, I'm really not that, but God used that to grow me.
我从那段时光中学到了很多，这让我能够去跟那些正在挣扎的人交谈。
I've learned so much from that season, and that allows me to be able to speak to some of these guys that are struggling.
我知道那种感觉，我曾经也经历过。
Like, I know what like, I've been there.
我懂。
Like, I get it.
我知道你正在经历什么。
Like, I know what's you're going through.
所以，是的，做这个回顾练习、看看上帝在你生命中所成就的一切，总是很有意义的。
So, yeah, it's always fun to do that exercise to just to take a look back and see what God's done in your life.
你给了我们半小时。
You gave us a half hour.
你给了我们一张大纸和马克笔，让我们画一条时间线。
You gave us a big piece of paper, markers, and we had to just do a timeline.
我以前从没做过这个。
I've never done it before.
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，这对我帮助很大，因为我可以大致梳理出上帝在我不同人生阶段中的带领。
And to be honest, it was so helpful for me because I could kinda categorize what God has moved me through in the different stages.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我不确定我们有多少人。
And everyone I don't know how many guys we had.
十一个人？
11 guys?
是的。
Yeah.
是吗？
Was it?
没错。
Yep.
我想你可能给每个人分配了五分钟。
And I think you maybe allotted everybody five minutes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你可能会觉得，我们大概能花一个多小时。
So you would think like we could try to get it maybe a little bit over an hour.
然后两个小时后，我们还在继续。
And then two hours later, we're still going through it.
我觉得我是最后一个做的。
I think I was think I was the last one to do it.
这深深打动了我。
And it moved me so much.
从某种意义上说，我分享了一些可能从未对太多人说过的事情。
In one sense, I shared some things I probably haven't shared with too many people.
当大家谈论救赎、谈论信仰成长时，其中一个问题是影响他们的人，这让我印象深刻。
And the thing that stuck out to me when everyone was talking about salvation and then talking about, just growing in their faith, one of the questions was different influential people.
在11个人中，我想有九个人都说到了他们的父亲。
And I think out of the 11, I wanna say nine of them said their father.
他们说，父亲是他们属灵道路上最重要的人。
So they said that their father was the most important person in their spiritual walk.
是的。
Yeah.
哥林多前书第16章谈到了一个敬虔男人的样子。
And first Corinthians chapter 16 just talks about what a godly man is.
是的。
Yeah.
有一个敬虔的男人，还有另外两个男人，他们与父亲的关系略有不同。
And having a godly man there's two other guys, and their relationship with their father was a little bit different.
我们在教会中也会看到，有些人来自父母不信主的家庭，父亲或许也不是他们最好的榜样，但他们依然走过来了，并且与父亲修复了关系。
And we're gonna see that in the church as well that some people are coming from homes that their father wasn't a believer, their parents weren't believers for sure, or their father maybe wasn't the best role model or example for them, but they've made it through and they've made mends with their father.
但你觉得什么是敬虔的男人？为什么父亲在我们与主同行的属灵道路上如此重要？
But what do you think a godly man is, and why is a father so important for us in our spiritual walk with the Lord?
是的。
Yeah.
你一开始就提到了哥林多前书16章13到14节。
I mean, you mentioned it right out the gate with, you know, first Corinthians sixteen thirteen through 14.
要警醒，站稳在信仰中，要像男子汉一样。
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, and act like men.
要坚强。
Be strong.
我最喜欢第14节的部分。
My favorite part of this is at fourteen.
我们所做的一切都要凭着爱去做。
Let all that we do be done in love.
当我想到这节经文时，‘要像男子汉’是核心。
And when I think of that verse, like, you know, act like men's the hub.
这是中间的部分。
That's the middle part.
但要警醒。
But be watchful.
这对男人来说非常重要。
Like, that's huge as men.
因为撒旦正在盯着我们。
Like, we need to Satan's after us.
他一直在追着我们。
Like, he is after us.
我觉得我们有时觉得这没什么大不了的，但他就像一头狮子。
Like and I think we sometimes think it's not a big deal, but he's he's a lion.
有一次有人给我打了个比方。
Like, I there's a analogy given to me one time.
你见过狮子撕碎一具尸体吗？
Have you ever seen a lion, like, rip a carcass apart?
撒旦想对你做的事就是这样。
That's what Satan wants to do to you.
他想从精神上、身体上，以任何方式把你撕成碎片，把你从我们正在参加的这场赛跑中拖出去。
He wants to rip you limb from limb mentally, physically, any way he can and to take you out of this out of this race that we're in.
我认为作为男人，我们不仅要为自己的家人警醒，也要为整个教会警醒。
And I think as men, we need to be watchful, not only for our own families, but for us as a church.
我们需要保持警觉，清楚自己所追求的目标和即将面对的威胁，因为只有这样，我们才能知道敌人正在逼近。
Like, we need to have we need to be village village in what we're looking towards and what we see coming because that's the only way that we know that the enemy's coming.
我们难道就低着头，怎么才能知道呢？
Are we just with our heads down, how are gonna know?
你知道的。
You know?
所以保持警醒非常重要，也要在信仰中坚定不动摇。
So just being watchful is huge and staying firm in the faith.
我们到底扎根于什么？
Like, what are we rooted in?
这些年来，你被教导了些什么？
Like, what what have you been taught over the years?
我回想起自己的一生，即使在我那段有些放纵的时期，那些东西也一直支撑着我。
I think back over my life, even the season that was a little wild for me, like, those things kept me.
那些东西支撑着我。
Those things kept me.
是恩典，是我所学到的爱。
The grace, the love that I've learned about.
每次听到的时候，我都觉得太棒了。
And I just think every time you hear it, you say, wow.
有时候我总是特别喜欢这一部分。
Sometimes we always I always love this part.
我已经听过这个信息好几次了。
Like, I've already heard that message before.
对吧？
Right?
我们会把它放在这里。
We'll put it there.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
再听一遍这个信息，让你在那个领域扎根更深。
Hear that message again and get deeper roots in that area.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
有时候我们总是决定，我已经听过关于恩典的事了。
Sometimes we always decide, I've already heard about grace.
是的。
Mhmm.
不对。
No.
不对。
No.
不对。
No.
你在恩典中的根基有多深？
How deep are your roots in grace?
因为当风暴来临的时候，是根基在支撑着你。
Because when the storm comes in your life, the roots is what's holding you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
我们能察觉到风和其他那些东西，但根基究竟是什么样的呢？
Because we recognize the wind and all those things, but what's the roots look like?
我想我们该从这里开始，比如，你在这些方面有多深？
And I think that's where we'd start, like, what's your depth in all of these?
爱、恩典、怜悯、耶稣的宝血。
The love, the grace, the mercy, the blood of Jesus.
你知道吗？我们真的明白这些吗？
You know, do we know that?
我们自己真的明白这一点吗？
Do we know that for ourselves?
我最喜欢的一点就是：要刚强。
And the my favorite thing is, like, be strong.
有时候我们会想到那种真正的硬汉形象。
Sometimes we think of, like, real macho man.
但其实，我们所做的一切都是出于爱。
But, no, we're doing it all in love, though.
我们是否也是这样带领的呢？
Like, do we do we lead that way?
正如你刚才提到的，关于我们父亲，那是一种象征，或者我可以说，是我们对基督最初的认识原型。
And you as you said there, like, with our fathers, like, that's a representation or probably, I would say, is our first representation of what Christ is to us.
是的。
Mhmm.
从小成长的过程中就是这样。
As got as kids growing up.
我觉得那就是我的榜样，或者说我的人生楷模。
Like, that's what I think or that's my role model in a way.
我小时候，我爸就是我的榜样，直到我后来知道了蝙蝠侠、超人还有那些其他英雄。
Like, when I grew up, like, my dad was my role model until I learned about maybe Batman and Superman and all all those other guys.
对吧？
Right?
但他真的是我的榜样。
But, like, he was my role model.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我观察他是怎么行动的。
I watched how he moved.
我观察他是怎么与人相处的。
I watched how he interacted.
他曾经有一段时间是我们青年小组的领袖。
Like, he was our youth he was our youth leader for a while.
我观察他是如何做牧养工作的，你知道的。
Watched how he did that, you know, pastoring.
就像，你是孩子们的榜样，人们都在看着你。
Like, I'm your your children and people are watching you.
他们都在留意，不管你是否意识到。
And they're taking note whether you whether you believe it or not.
即使你没有担任那些职位，也总有男人在观察其他男人的一言一行。
And even just men in even if you're not in one of those positions, there's men that are watching other men and how they move.
这可能是好的，也可能是坏的。
And it could be good or bad.
我认为我们一定要格外留意自己的言行举止。
I think that's why we have to be so watchful in how we interact.
我们是以爱来引领吗？
Do we lead with love?
我觉得这至关重要。
Like, I think it's super crucial.
所以，是的，这就是我对它的看法。
So, yeah, that's what I say about it.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，抱歉。
I mean Sorry.
这是你能拥有的最重要的关系之一。
It's one of the most important relationships that you can have.
而且，显然，它并不总是完美的。
And, obviously, it's not always gonna be perfect Yeah.
对很多人来说都是如此。
With a lot of people.
但我觉得，上周末和那些小伙子们在一起，了解他们的一些父亲，我们常常会认为门徒训练就是有人坐下来教你圣经，这确实没错。
But I think with the guys this past weekend and knowing some of their fathers, a lot of times we can think of discipleship as being someone's gonna sit us down and then teach us the word, which that is true.
但你可能拥有教义、教条或教导，而更好的方式是亲眼看到这些教导在你的生活中实际运作。
But you can have the precepts or you can have the doctrine or the teaching, but then it's better to be able to actually see the teaching in work in your life.
这需要被示范或体现出来。
It needs to be exemplified or embodied.
你有恩典的信息，但当你身边有一个人，你们彼此生活在对方的世界里，他们不仅用圣经教导你，还通过自己的品格展现出来，这胜过千言万语。
So you have the message of grace, but then when you have someone who's living in your life or you're living in their world and then they're exemplifying the things that they're teaching you from scripture, but then they're showing it in their character, that speaks volumes.
很多时候，我们认为门徒训练就是我会坐下来告诉你所有你需要知道的事，这没错，我们也确实需要被教导这些原则。
So a lot of times we can think discipleship is I'm gonna sit you down and tell you everything that you need to know, which is that, and it it can be that we need to be taught those precepts.
但亲眼看到一个人原谅你，这很重要。
But being able to see someone forgive you.
我记得小时候跟父亲闹矛盾，做了不该做的事，然后他把我叫到一边，狠狠地训了我一顿。
I remember with my father getting in trouble and, you know, doing something I shouldn't do and then him sitting me down and him laying into me.
他只是问：‘你这是在干什么？’
It just in the sense of what are you doing?
到最后，他却原谅了我。
And then getting to the end of it and being forgiven.
我记得有一次，他说：‘好了。'
And then I remember him saying one time, he says, okay.
我们再也不会谈论这件事了。
We're never gonna talk about this again.
结束了。
It's over.
猜怎么着？
And guess what?
从此再也没人提起过。
Never was brought up again.
这件事被完全遗忘了。
It was completely forgotten.
它被抛在脑后，我的身份并不建立在我刚刚做过的事上。
It was out of sight, out of mind, and my identity wasn't rooted in what I just did.
这太棒了。
That was great.
因此，我从他这样对待我的方式中理解了恩典。
So I understood grace from that example of him dealing with me that way.
这就是门徒训练。
And that is discipleship.
他是这样训练我的。
He discipled me that way.
然后我看到了他生活中一些我渴望的东西。
And then I saw something in his life that I wanted.
是的。
Yeah.
我看到了他拥有的某种愿景，我意识到人年纪大一点后就会明白，如果生活中没有愿景，我会四处漂泊。
I saw some vision that he had and I realized you get a little bit older and you realize in life, if I don't have a vision, I'm going to be floating all over the place.
那是一种完全不安全的状态。
And that is a completely insecure place to be.
我不想过那样的生活。
And I don't want to be there.
我想成为一个有明确方向的人。
I want to be like a guy who's moving a certain direction.
我希望在我的生活中、婚姻里、家庭中拥有权威。
I want to have authority in my life, in my marriage, in my family.
我希望成为一个说话有分量的人。
I want to be a person who has authority in their life when they talk.
他们说的不只是话语，而是真理，因为这些话基于他们如何生活。
They don't just talk words, but rather they're talking truth because it's based upon how they're living their life.
所以我想要这样的生活。
So I want that.
所以，有这样一个人或一位父亲，即使在我迷失时、不知道自己是谁的时候，也能对我说话。
So having that person or that father to be able to say, even when I'm screwed up, I don't know who I am.
我不明白自己为什么做这些事，但那个人看起来很坚定、稳定，而且有方向。
I don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing, but that guy seems like he's secure, he's stable, and he's going somewhere.
我非常感恩，我的生命中能有这样一个人。
And I'm just so thankful that I have someone like that in my life.
所以当我们谈论教会中的门徒训练时，这对男性来说有多重要？
So when we're talking about discipleship in the church, how important is it for men?
那么，那些男人是谁呢？
And who who are the men?
是只有牧师在进行门徒训练吗？那么教会里应该承担这项工作的男人是谁呢？
Is it just pastors that are doing the discipling, but who are the men men in the church that should be doing this work?
我认为我们始终需要强调的是，作为牧师、领袖和男人，我们正在培养下一代。
I think something that we always have to highlight is as pastors, as leaders, as men, we are training the next generation.
你必须承担起这个责任。
You gotta own that.
对吧？
Right?
我总是想到我自己，我儿子现在一岁半了。
I always think of my to myself, my son is a year and a half now.
我希望当我的孩子长大时，教会依然存在，而这份责任落在我肩上。
Like, I want the church to still be around when he's around, and it is on my shoulders.
对吧？
Right?
承担起延续信仰的责任。
Take ownership of it, of continuing the faith.
作为男性，我们需要在这一领域挺身而出。
And as men, we need to step up in that area.
我认为有时我们试图保持被动。
I think sometimes we try to be passive.
我们几周前刚办完那场男性会议，赞恩谈到了这一点，说被动是男性最大的杀手之一，嗯。
We just had that men's conference couple weekends ago and Zane talked about that, how passivity is one of the biggest killers Mhmm.
对男性而言。
For men.
我坚信这一点。
I believe it.
我坚信这一点。
I believe it.
因为我们总是坐着不动，我爸爸总说，瘫在沙发上吃奇巧饼干。
Because as we sit back and we just my dad always says, sit on the couch and eat Twinkies.
这可以成为我们的心态。
Like, that can be our mindset.
对吧？
Right?
我周日去一趟，就算完成任务了。
Well, I go on Sunday that checks the box.
那我们如何培育下一代呢？
Now, how are we growing the next generation?
当我们回顾那些信仰的故事时，正如你所说，上帝带你经历这一切都有祂的用意。
God's as we look back at those faith stories like you were saying, God's brought you through all those things for a reason.
我可以用自己的见证去帮助别人。
I can use my testimony to help someone else out.
弟兄们，当我们环顾房间、分享这些故事时，很多故事都很相似。
Guys, as we went around the room and we were talking through those stories, a lot of the stories were similar.
是的。
Mhmm.
是的，我的意思是，它们有点偏差，可能地点不同，但确实是这样。
Very I mean, they were a little off, maybe different location, but Mhmm.
整个过程中，每个故事都有一种普遍的主题，就像浪子回头一样。
There was a general theme of, like, prodigal son the whole way through every story
是的。
Mhmm.
在某种程度上是这样。
To a certain extent.
我就在其中。
Like, I was in there.
我曾经离开过。
I was out.
我曾经挣扎过。
I was struggling.
但我觉得，作为男人，我们必须在这一领域挺身而出，让信仰得以延续并门徒训练。
But I think, like, as men, we have to step up in the area so the faith continues and disciple.
每个男人，甚至女人，都需要。
Every every man needs to even women.
我觉得有时候我们总认为，男人只需要怎样，女人也应该参与门训。
Like, I think sometimes we always think, like, men just need to, like, women should be disciplining as well.
我觉得她们在这方面做得非常好。
I think they do very well at that.
但关键是，伙计们，你们得行动起来。
Like but it's the guys you gotta, like, come on.
你认为为什么会这样？
Why do you think that is?
我觉得他们很容易建立联系。
I think they connect very easily.
是的。
Mhmm.
他们能够建立联系并进行这些对话。
They can connect and have those conversations.
这是很自然的事情。
That's a natural thing.
他们可以敞开心扉，展现脆弱。
They can open up, be vulnerable.
让一个男人敞开心扉，是的。
Pulling that out of a guy Mhmm.
非常困难。
Is very tough.
是的。
Mhmm.
来吧，我们聊点真实的。
To, like, let's talk real stuff.
甚至加入一些情感在里面。
Like, let's talk even some emotion in there.
你最近经历些什么？
Like, what are you going through?
来，跟我讲点真心话。
Like, be real with me.
而且要理解，那背后的根本原因到底是什么？
And understanding, like, what's, like, what's the root to that?
我们经常看到的一件事就是，男人在生活的某个方面挣扎。
Like, one of the things, like, we I see all the time is guys struggling with an area in their life.
为什么会这样？
And it's like, why?
那根源在哪里？
What's the root of that?
这到底是从哪儿来的？
Where does that actually come from?
你实际上看到的只是个表象。
Like, you're actually looking at a side effect.
对吧？
Right?
我总是告诉男生们，你正在做的某件事，或者某种行为，其实是更深层问题的外在表现。
I always tell guys that you're doing something or that's a side effect of something that's deeper.
缺乏感，我的身份认同。
Insufficiency, my identity.
那里一定有更深层的原因。
Like, there's something deeper there.
让我们深入探讨一下。
Let's get to it.
这正是在工作中去审视这些问题时所要做的。
And that's at work working through looking at those.
你为什么要做这件事？
Why are you doing that?
你是不是在某些方面感到自己不够好？
You feel insufficient in some way?
你是不是觉得，自己不是妻子所需要的那样的男人？
You don't feel like you're the man your wife didn't need?
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就是，不管是什么。
Like, whatever it is.
然后，深入挖掘这一点。
And, like, diving deep into that.
所以当我们讨论门徒训练时，就像你所说的，每个男人都需要去门训别人。
So as we talk through discipleship and like you were saying, like, every man needs to be discipling somebody.
我真心相信这一点。
I truly believe that.
是的。
Mhmm.
我需要把我从神那里领受的传递出去。
I need to be pouring what God's given me.
我在讲台上领受的，要传递给其他人。
What I'm receiving from the pulpit, I'm pouring into somebody else.
是的。
Mhmm.
我可以帮助他们成长。
I can build them up.
我可以适时地给予他们需要的那句话吗？
I can I can maybe give that word in season that they need?
我们永远不知道什么时候需要一句适时的话。
Like, we never know when a word in season is needed.
最近我特别留意到，如果有人突然出现在我脑海里，我就给他们发消息。
That's something that I've been very cognizant of recently is looking like if someone pops in my mind, I'm texting them.
这对我来说就是一件无所谓的事。
That's just something I've been like, I don't care.
不一定非得发一条长消息。
It doesn't have to be a message.
不需要什么特别的，就是简单的说一句：我现在正为你祷告。
Doesn't have to be anything wild, but hey, praying for you right now.
你永远不知道那条消息什么时候会起作用，我们之前聊过那些信息，有时候一想到就决定要给那个人发消息。
And you never know when that text I mean, we were talking through some of those, like, those messages come through and it's just like, alright, I need to text that guy.
是的
Mhmm.
我得发这条消息。
I need to send that message.
门徒训练非常重要。
So discipleship is huge.
这也是我们建立强大教会的方式。
That's how we can make a strong church as well.
并不是一切都落在牧师身上。
It's not as it always fall on the pastor.
我经常听到这种说法。
Like, I hear that all the time.
我没法门训每一个人。
Like, I can't disciple everybody.
对吧？
Right?
我得讲道啊。
Like, I gotta preach.
我在做这件事。
I'm doing this.
我在做那件事。
I'm doing that.
你已经分身乏术了。
Like, you're already pulled a thousand different directions.
所以，教会里有人主动站出来帮助门训，这太棒了。
So to have men in in the church that are stepping up to the plate to help disciple is amazing.
然后你看到教会成长，看到影响的涟漪效应。
Then you watch that church grow, and then you get to see the ripple effect.
是的。
Mhmm.
你看，教会强大了，整个社区都会开始改变。
Like, church you get a strong church, watch the community start to change.
这正是我们Men of Iron的核心宗旨。
That's what we're all about at Men of Iron.
就像是一次改变一个人，从而改变整个文化。
Like, changing a culture one man at a time.
只要有一个男人做出这个决定，就会产生连锁反应。
Like, it takes out one guy to make that decision and the ripple effect that happens.
这太棒了。
It's amazing.
你认为是什么让男性们难以真正参与进来？
What do you think holds holds guys back from actually engaging with that?
因为我记得史蒂文牧师说过，我那时候可能还是个青少年。
Because I remember pastor Steven said, I was probably a teenager when he said it.
他这么说的时候，我肯定还是个青少年。
Definitely was probably a teenager when he said it.
但他说，教会里最无聊的人，就是那些只来接收的人。
But he said the person that's the most bored in church is a person that just comes and receives Mhmm.
然后就什么都不做。
And then does nothing with it.
就像你之前说的，可能会想，哦，这个道理我听过很多次了，但你需要再听一次，让这些道理的根基扎得更深。
And like you said earlier, it could be, oh, I've heard that message before, but you need to hear that message again just so those roots can go deeper.
只有当你真正实践所学的内容时，这些根基才会变得更深。
And the roots only go deeper when you actually apply what you're being taught.
那么，你认为是什么阻碍了男性真正参与门训其他男性呢？
So what do you think holds guys back from actually engaging with discipling other men?
他们不知道该怎么做。
They don't know how to do it.
我认为，如果你连这个问题都会问，那我们第一次聚在一起时就已经这样做了。
I think if you even ask yourself that question, I think we did the first time we got together.
比如，该怎么做呢？
Like, how do you do it?
嗯。
Mhmm.
那它的核心是什么？
Like, what's the bones to it?
它的框架是什么？
What's the framework?
说到底，如果你真想简化它，其实就是进行一次对话。
Like and at the end of the day, if you really wanna boil it down, it's having just a conversation.
对吧？
Right?
让我们彼此坦诚相待。
Let's just get real with each other.
我们去喝杯咖啡吧。
Let's grab a coffee.
就随便聊上一个小时。
Let's just talk for an hour.
你生活中现在发生什么事了？
What's going on in your life?
你的信仰怎么样？
What's your faith like?
你做了什么来促进它成长？
What are you doing to help grow it?
对吧？
Right?
因为人生中只有你一个人在前进，只有两种方向可走。
Because there's only you only move there's two ways to move.
要么向前，要么向后。
It's either forwards or backwards.
没有中间地带。
It's that there's no in between.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这就是我们之前说的被动性。
That's that passivity we were talking about.
所以用这种方式来看你的生活，抱歉，也用这种方式来看我们的生活，想想看，好吧。
So looking at your life that way, excuse me, and looking at our life that way and thinking, okay.
如果我想在门徒训练、在这样的交谈中向前迈进，我就需要进行这样的对话来实现它。
If I'm trying to move forward in that discipleship, in that talking, like, I need to have that conversation to make that happen.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这就是让很多男性止步不前的原因，他们根本不知道该如何去做。
And I think that's what holds guys back so they just don't know how to do it.
说实话，其实也没那么复杂。
And to be truthful, there's not much to it.
首先，就是要保持开放和可接触。
It's just being available, number one.
我觉得很多男性都会说，我太忙了。
I think a lot of guys, I'm too busy.
我们昨晚在电话里还聊过这个。
We were talking about this last night on the phone.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
天哪。
Oh, man.
我太忙了。
I'm so busy.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
你现在有孩子吗？
Now do you have kids?
你有工作吗？
You got a job?
你有这么多事吗？
You got all this?
没有。
No.
你没那么忙。
You're not that busy.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
你在牧养教会吗？
Are you pastoring a church?
你看，你做了这么多事情，但其实你根本没那么忙。
Like, all these different like, you put all these things together, like, you're really not that busy.
你每个月抽一两个小时，见个朋友一两次，是完全可以的。
You can make time for an hour to meet with a guy maybe once or twice a month Mhmm.
就聊聊真实的生活。
And just talk real life.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得有时候男性会以为自己必须什么都懂。
And I think sometimes guys think they have to know it all.
我不是要你什么都知道。
I'm not asking you to know it all.
我是要你分享自己的见证，去帮助其他男性。
I'm asking you to take what your testimony is and help another guy out.
或者你从讲台上听到的内容，也许他听到这个信息的方式和你不一样。
Or what you've heard from the pulpit, and maybe that's maybe he didn't hear that message the same way you heard it.
你在这一方面有更深的根基。
You have deeper roots in that area.
所以你会想，好吧。
So you're like, okay.
我觉得这实际上对你来说更有意义。
I that's actually gonna this makes more sense for you.
所以，只是关注这一点，并对男性保持开放和可接触，我认为这就是门徒训练的起点。
So just looking at that and just being available to guys, I think is where discipleship starts.
是的。
Yes.
你可以更深入地去处理不同的事情。
You can get down deeper and working through different things.
但就最基本而言，就是愿意与一个男人一对一地见面，并向他的生命中倾注影响。
But I think for the bare bones of it, it's just being available to meet with a guy one on one and pouring pouring into his life.
有趣的是，我经常看到的是，导师实际上得到的建立和鼓励，甚至比前来与他见面的那个人还要多。
And the funny thing is is what I see all the time is the mentor actually gets built up and encouraged more than even the guy that's coming to meet with him.
当然。
For sure.
确实会发生。
It happens.
是的。
Yeah.
日复一日。
Day in and day out.
当然了。
For sure.
是的。
Yeah.
如果不去做，只是坐在一旁旁观，那就假设你在教会里，但并没有真正与他人互动，因为你并不觉得这是你的责任，比如说。
And if not, if you're just sitting on the sidelines, then it seems as though that let's just say you're in a church and you're not necessarily really engaged in other people because you don't feel as though that that's your job, let's just say.
但耶稣在马太福音第28章给了我们命令：如果你要做我的门徒。
But Jesus gives us the command in Matthew chapter 28, if you're gonna be my disciple.
门徒和基督徒之间没有任何区别。
And there's no difference between a disciple and a Christian.
这是同一个词。
It's the same word.
我们就说它们是同义词吧。
Let's just say they're synonymous.
所以，如果你是基督徒，你就应该成为使人作门徒的人。
So if you're a Christian, you should be a disciple maker.
但如果你不这么做，就会积累大量未释放的能量。
But if you're not doing it, then you're gonna have a lot of unspent energy.
而这种未释放的能量可能会让你对教会产生负面情绪，而不是想着我可以参与其中，推动教会成长或让教会更健康。
And that unspent energy can go towards being negative towards the church rather than saying that I could be a part of actually growing this church or making this church healthier.
如果我不参与其中，就会坐在 sidelines，只做一个批评者。
If I don't engage with it, I'm gonna sit on the sidelines and I can just be a critic.
当批评者很容易。
And it's easy to be a critic.
百分之百。
100%.
这绝对是世界上最容易做的事。
It's the easiest thing in the world to do.
我的意思是，我们生活在一个每个人对每件事都爱批评的世界里。
I mean, we just live in a world that everybody's a critic about everything.
每个人似乎都觉得，自己比那些真正参与其中的人更懂行。
Everyone seems as though that they know better than the people that are actually engaged in what's going on.
如果是NFL、体育或政治的话。
If it be the NFL, sports, politics.
你只是坐在场边，评论并表达你的观点。
You just sit on the sidelines and you just critique and give your opinion.
但如果你真正参与进去，那就是进入他人的生活，我认为这也会让人望而却步，因为我自己生活中也有问题，我需要有人来帮我解决我的问题。
But if you get into the battle, which is you're getting into somebody else's life, and I think that could be a deterrent for people as well is that I have my own problems in my own life, and I need someone to come and help me with my problems.
这确实是真实的，人们都需要帮助。
And that's real, and people need help.
但与此同时，如果我能介入他人的困扰，这表面上看似乎并不是我愿意去做的事。
But at the same time, if I can enter into somebody else's issues, which doesn't on the surface seem as though that that's something that I would wanna do.
这看起来并不吸引人。
It doesn't seem so attractive.
但当你真的去做了，你会发现圣灵会充满你，并赐给你智慧。
But when you do do it, you find that the Holy Spirit can fill you and it can give you wisdom.
然后你就能传递智慧。
And then you can give wisdom.
他会供应你所需的一切，让你能够帮助你对面的那个人。
He's gonna supply everything that you need to be able to help that other individual across from you.
当这种情况发生时，你会意识到，如果你没有参与其中，你就不会得到这些收获。
And when that happens, you realize you're receiving something that you wouldn't receive if you weren't engaged in it.
是的。
Yep.
于是，你的信心开始对你来说变得更加真实。
So then your faith starts to become more real to you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就像你所说的，导师或门训者在对话结束后离开时，也会感到自己得到了建造，觉得‘我正需要这个’。
Like you said, the mentor, the discipler leaves that conversation at that time, and he feels built up like I needed that.
对。
Yeah.
我认识一个家伙。
I have one guy.
这个周末我和你提起过他。
I told you about him this weekend.
他在信仰上还比较年轻，但正以一种美好的方式成长和进步。
He's younger in his faith, and he's moving along and progressing in a beautiful way.
但我们每周日早上见面，每周六也见面一小时，过去五周我们一直在学习《箴言》第三章。
But we meet on Sunday mornings, we meet on Saturdays for an hour, we've been going through Proverbs three for the last five weeks.
他已经背下了半章经文。
He's memorized half the chapter.
每次离开后，我都会对自己说，我也告诉他们：我需要这样的时刻。
And when I leave that, I'm thinking to myself, and I tell them, I say, I needed that.
我们刚刚度过了如此美好的团契时光。
That was such great fellowship that we just had.
我们打开《箴言》第三章，但对我而言，我不知道接下来会走向哪里。
We open up Proverbs three, and for me, I don't know where we're gonna go.
是的。
Yeah.
但半小时内，我们就进入了新约。
But within a half hour, we're in the New Testament.
我们把箴言第三章的内容与其他经文进行对比。
We're comparing things from Proverbs three to different places in scripture.
然后我会离开，如果是周日上午，我就去讲台讲道。
And then I leave and I'll go into the pulpit if it's a Sunday morning that we're doing it.
我脑海中充满了我们刚才的对话，充实极了。
And I'm so filled up in my mind with the conversation that we just had.
他得到了造就。
He's edified.
我也得到了造就。
I'm edified.
我只是觉得，我生命中需要更多这样的时刻。
And I'm just like, I want more of this in my life.
是的。
Yeah.
我们该如何鼓励男性真正参与进来，亲身体验我们所谈论的内容呢？
And how do we encourage guys so that they can actually engage with it and taste that what we're talking about?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这才是最关键的部分。
I think that is like the biggest piece.
我一直在反复思考这个问题。
I I think through that all the time, really.
如果整个教会都这么做会怎样？
Like, what if the whole church was doing that?
比如，
Like,
这就是我们想要的，费德。
think That's what we want, Fed
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
这就是我们需要你帮助的原因。
That's that's why we need your help.
这就是你培训我们的原因，因为我想看到的是
That's why you're training us because that's what I wanna see in the
教会。
church.
想象一下，我甚至在周末之后还一直这么想。
Like, imagine that as I I I thought that even after the weekend.
我甚至还提到过这一点。
I even said a little bit about that.
想象一下，如果水手工会、费德山教会的所有男性都在做这件事。
Imagine if Sailor's Union, Fed Hill Church is like, all the men are doing this.
那样会造就一个怎样的教会呢？
What kind of church does that create?
对吧？
Right?
这会造就一个门徒制造的教会。
That creates a disciple making church.
对吧？
Right?
我们正在改变教会内部的文化，然后走出去到社区做同样的事。
That we're changing a culture with inside that church, and then we're going out to the community and doing the same thing.
这就是我们想要的。
Like, that's what we want.
这是上帝吩咐我们要做的。
That's what God has asked us to do.
但要给它搭起骨架，对吧？建立相应的结构，让弟兄们不会感到奇怪或不自在。
But putting bones to it, right, getting that structure to it so guys don't feel weird or uncomfortable.
他们知道自己的方向，明白模式或自己的日程安排。
They they know where they're going or what the pattern or what the schedule is for them.
给它搭起骨架。
Put bones to it.
让自己保持开放，看神如何工作。
Make yourself available and watch God work.
所以我经常告诉 guys，要看神如何工作。
That's why I tell guys all the time, watch God work.
这跟你无关。
It's not about you.
我实话跟你说。
I'm gonna be honest.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而且我甚至说得更直接一点。
Like and it's not even I'll even cut it real even closer.
这甚至跟铁人无关。
It's not even about men of iron.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
关键是看着上帝做工。
It's about watching God do the work.
你坐在桌子对面，心里想着：上帝正在改变他的生命。
And you sit across the table and being like, God's changing his life.
上帝正在这个领域中做工。
God's working in this area.
嘿，我也提供了一段经文，这是我多年来从贾斯汀牧师讲道中学习到的。
Hey, I provided a scripture too that I've learned over the years from something pastor Justin said in a message.
我只是在合适的时机说了这句话，它就深深触动了他，他的生命正在被改变。
I just said that in season and it just hit him and his life's being changed.
如果你仔细想想，你几乎会为此热泪盈眶。
And it's just a like, you almost get teared up about it if you think about it.
看着一个又一个男人的生命发生转变。
Like watching guys' lives just change time and time again.
这就是我们看到所有开展‘铁人男子’事工的教会所见证的。
That's what we see throughout all the different churches that do men of iron.
就是看着生命持续地改变。
It's just like watching lives change consistently.
你就会想，好吧。
You're just like, okay.
是的。
Yes.
这个课程很棒。
It's cool curriculum.
但亲眼看到他们因神的作为而生命改变，真是太奇妙了。
But to actually watch their lives change through what God's doing is amazing.
太棒了。
So great.
你们是怎么培训这些人的？
How do you train guys?
我们现在在费德山正在进行这个课程。
So we're going through it in Fed Hill.
我们度过了一个周末。
We had our weekend.
但如果一个家伙说，嘿，我也想要这样的生活，那会是什么样子呢？
But what does it look like if a guy says, hey, I want that in my life?
我需要有人能一对一地引导我，同时我也希望有机会服事教会，并找到别人。
I need someone who's discipling me maybe one on one, but also I want to be able to be available to serve the church and find somebody else.
从实际操作的角度来看，这个人如何接受培训，以便他能进入门徒训练的关系中，成为导师和门徒？
How does it work just in a practical way for that individual to get trained up so that he goes into that discipleship with a mentee, mentor, mentee?
他如何接受培训，才能感到自己有能力胜任这件事？
How does he get trained up so that he feels equipped to be able to do it?
这是个很好的问题。
That's a great question.
所以我们安排了一个小型的周末活动，就像我们和你们一起做的那样，帮助大家理解门徒训练的框架和核心五项。
So we do a small like, we'll do a weekend like we did with you guys, kinda understand the framework of what is discipleship, what's core five.
我们相信门诺维尔的理念，即信仰、家庭、朋友、健康和财务。
Like, we we believe in MennoVire in that faith, family, friends, fitness, and finances.
如果认真对待这五个方面，你的人生就会变得更加平衡，而这是我们所有人都需要的。
Like those five areas, if you actually take those areas seriously, you're gonna create some balance in your life, which we all need.
比如，当你思考自己作为父亲的角色时，信仰是第一位的，其他事情都围绕它展开。
Like if you even think about being a father, faith's number one when those things fall underneath.
但我们已经为他们建立了这样的框架。
But we kinda get that framework set up for them.
这个周末活动让那些对此感兴趣、正在考虑的人能够亲身体验一下。
The weekend allows guys that are thinking about it, kinda interested in it, to kinda taste it.
我在对这些家伙保持问责。
Like, I'm holding these guys accountable.
我会把组里的那些人推荐给他们，还会给他们发短信。
I'm sending them those guys from the group, I'm sending them text messages.
嘿，你之前跟我说过你要做这件事。
Like, hey, you told me you're gonna do this.
你跟我说过你要每天早上读圣经。
You told me you're gonna read your bible in the morning.
你在做吗？
Are you doing it?
对吧？
Right?
你周一晚上会花时间陪妻子吗？
Are you you're gonna spend time with your wife on Monday nights.
那就是你的家庭约会夜。
That's your date night at home.
你在做吗？
Are you doing it?
对吧？
Right?
我知道你其中一个计划是，得为你和妻子安排一次旅行，对吧？
I know one of yours is like, I need to plan a trip, right, for you and your wife.
你在做吗？
Are you doing it?
对吧？
Right?
而且要让每个人对这个标准负责。
And just holding guys accountable to that measure.
guys 其实很喜欢这样。
Guys actually like it.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这真是奇怪的地方。
That's the crazy thing.
你可能会想，嗯，这会让我们感到困扰。
You may think, well, that's that's gonna bother us.
比如问责。
Like accountability.
百分之百。
A 100%.
是的。
Mhmm.
让你体验一下这种问责制，而不是死死盯着你。
And getting a taste of what that accountability I'm not down your throat.
你已经长大了。
You're grown.
对吧？
Right?
但只要我能发条消息，或者持续给你鼓励，那就是最重要的。
But if I can just send that text or just keep that encouragement coming towards your way, that's number one.
所以你要让他们亲身体验一下那种周末的氛围。
So you get them to taste that weekend of that experience.
然后就是吸引那些对此感兴趣的人。
And then it's getting guys that are interested in it.
对吧？
Right?
谁想要这样的生活？
Who wants that in their life?
并且讲清楚整个情况。
And explaining the full picture.
嘿。
Hey.
我们每个月要和这位导师见面两次。
We're gonna meet twice a month with this mentor.
你永远不会毕业。
You never you never graduate.
你永远不会到达终点。
You never arrive.
根本不存在所谓的到达终点。
There's no such thing as arrival.
你需要一直有一个导师。
Like, you need a mentor consistently.
而且，这可能是你生命中不同的阶段，或许是一位不同的导师。
And it may be a different season, maybe a different mentor in your life.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我的导师是肯尼·施茨曼，他是我的导师。
Like, my mentor raised three Kenny Stutzman is my mentor.
他在我们的教会。
He's at our church.
他是我们的长老之一。
He's one of our elders.
他指导我，其中一个我选择他的原因是他养育了三个孩子。
And he mentors me because one of the reason I chose him to mentor me, he raised three kids.
他是个了不起的丈夫。
He's an amazing husband.
我希望我的生活中也能拥有类似的东西。
And I'm like, I want some form of that in my life.
对吧？
Right?
那我现在该怎么教孩子呢？
Like, how do I raise kids right now?
我儿子一岁半，他特别喜欢酸奶。
My son's a year and a half, and he loves yogurt.
就是，现在他就只喜欢这个。
Like, that's that's the only thing.
这就是他现在的样子。
Like, that's that's him right now.
那在教养他的过程中，下一步该怎么做呢？
And, like, learning how to raise him, like, what's the next step?
我该怎么确保一直引导我的儿子认识基督呢？
Like, how do I make sure my keep pointing my son to Christ?
因为就像我们一开始说的，我现在就是他眼中的那个榜样。
Like, because it's not I'm that like we said at the beginning of the when we started, like, I'm that representation for him right now.
我怎么行动、怎么说话，所有这些，他都在看着我。
How I'm moving, how I'm talking, all those things, he's looking at me.
因此，在建立这种导师关系并回答这个问题时，我们只是让男性们理解它的重要性。
So as we're creating that mentorship and get to that question is, we just get guys understanding what is the importance of it.
这贯穿整本圣经。
It's throughout the Bible.
上帝呼召我们去做这件事，赋予它力量，并帮助男性们以这种方式成长。
God has called us to do it, giving bones to it, and helping guys grow that way.
然后开始配对。
And then to start making the pairings.
我们把男性们两两配对。
We pair guys up.
是的。
Yes.
我想在某些方面建立一些共同点。
I wanna have some commonality on some.
我们都喜欢足球。
We both like football.
我超爱烤肉。
I love making barbecue.
我们确实希望在这方面有些共同点。
Like, we want some commonality there for sure.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但谁又能推动我达到下一个层次呢？
But also, who's gonna push me to that next level?
这就是我们如何配对，让这些关系持续一年的原因。
And that's how we make those pairings to last for a year.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
当你在教会里开始看到这种效果时，你已经和许多不同的教会合作过了。
And then when you start to see it in the church, and you've been working with a bunch of different churches.
是的
Yeah.
你一直在各地走访，帮助这些教会的牧师和领袖，为会众提供那种属灵的激励。
You've been going around and you help some of these pastors and leadership in these churches to be able to give that motivation, that spiritual motivation to the rest of the congregation.
所以一些男性会挺身而出，说：我生活中也需要这样的支持。
So some of these men are gonna step up and say, hey, I need that in my life.
对
Yeah.
关于问责制，我们上周末刚讨论过。
And accountability, we talked about it this past weekend.
问责制在男性生活中非常重要。
Accountability is such a big thing in men's lives.
当你成长时，在父母家中有问责制，在学校里也有问责制。
And you have accountability when you're growing up and you're in your parents' home and you have accountability when you're in school.
但当你独立成家后，你必须在某种程度上成为自己的问责者，而这可能会有点危险。
But then when you're off and you have your own family, you have to, in one sense, be your own accountability, which can kind of be dangerous.
嗯嗯
Mhmm.
如果你有一个好妻子，她会督促你保持自律。
If you have a wife, you have a good wife, she's gonna keep you accountable.
但我们需要生活中有其他男性来监督我们。
But we need other men in our life that are gonna hold us accountable.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是事实。
It's just the truth.
表面上看，我认为男性并不想要这种监督。
And on the surface, I think men don't want that.
我们是独立的男子汉。
We're our own men.
我们自己做决定，但当你经历了一些生活后，你会意识到：天啊，如果只有我自己做决定，我肯定会把一切搞砸。
We make our own decisions, but then you live life a little bit and you realize, man, if it's just me making decisions, I'm going screw this whole thing up.
我的意思是，我很容易就能毁掉自己的婚姻、家庭和人际关系。
I mean, it's very easy for me to be able to destroy my marriage, destroy my family, destroy relationships.
所以我需要生活中有人能约束我。
So I need someone in my life that's going to hold me accountable.
这是一件非常健康的事。
It's such a healthy thing.
是的。
Yeah.
以弗所书第五章提到，关于被圣灵充满时，说要顺服。
It says in Ephesians chapter five, when it's talking about being filled with the spirit, it says to submit.
因此，顺服在基督徒的生活中是非常重要的。
So submission is a huge thing in the Christian walk.
我们需要向其他男性顺服。
We need to be submitted to other men.
如果你去教会，会遇到一些被动的男性，他们只是因为妻子想去、孩子想去主日学才勉强出现。
If you go into a church and you have some of those guys that are maybe just passive, they're just there because their wife wants to be there, the kids wanna go to Sunday school, they show up.
你在与其他教会合作时，有没有见过这样的例子：一个原本只是边缘化、不太参与的人，后来参与了门训，被门训后生命发生了改变？
Are there any examples that you've seen just working with other churches of a testimony of a guy who's maybe just on the fringe and not really so engaged that does get engaged with discipleship and he's discipled and his life has changed.
你有类似的例子吗？
Do you have an example of that?
哪个？
Which one?
没有。
No.
我的意思是，我们每天都看到这样的事。
I I mean, we see it day in and day out.
比如，我们的YouTube频道里满是这样的故事。
Like, our YouTube channel's packed full of stories like that.
其中一个让我感触很深的例子是，我们当时在唐恩都乐店做圣经学习，有个家伙来了。
One of the ones that hits home for me, I had a guy right at we're meeting at a Dunkin' Donuts doing this bible study.
这个家伙来的时候说：‘我都不知道我为什么在这儿。’
This guy was showing up and he was like, I don't even know why I'm here.
我不知道我什么时候来。
I don't know when I'm coming.
好吧。
Alright.
嗯，这没关系。
Like, that's okay.
但说实话，我也不知道你为什么来。
I don't know why you're here either, to be honest.
但他来了，嘴里还滔滔不绝。
But hey, comes in, big lipper in his mouth.
我们上周末刚聊过这个家伙。
We talked about this guy the other over the weekend.
他甚至都不知道他为什么在这儿。
Doesn't even know why he's there.
我觉得这样挺好。
I'm like, that's fine.
他一直来，一直出现。
Keeps coming, keeps showing up.
到最后，他说：嘿。
By the end of it, he said, hey.
我仍然不知道我为什么在这儿，但这确实改变了我的生活。
I still don't know why I'm here, but it's it's actually changed my life.
他谈到我的信仰时说，我跟教会之间出了问题。
He said, talking about my faith, he said, I had a problem with my church.
我不再去教堂了。
I stopped going.
我说，我得在生活里放下恩怨。
I said, had to bury the hatchet in my life.
我为这件事放下了仇恨，现在又重新回到教堂，这对我生活产生了巨大影响。
I buried the hatchet for that situation, and I've been going back to church, and it's making a huge impact on my life.
他说，我快要结婚了。
He said, I'm about to be getting married.
他说，这帮助我重新调整了与妻子、未婚妻一起规划生活的方式。
He said, this has helped me correct my course with planning things out with my wife, my fiancee.
关于我们如何经营家庭、如何搬迁、如何运作。
How we're gonna lead our household, how we're gonna move, how we're gonna operate.
他谈到朋友时说，我生活中需要一些其他男性朋友。
He was talking about friends, like he's like, I need some other guys in my life.
我一直独自做这件事太久了。
Like, I've been doing this thing solo for so long.
我真的需要一些其他男性朋友。
Like, I need some other guys.
所以，看着他每个月都和我聚在一起，见证他生活中的变化，真是太棒了。
So it was so cool to watch month after month getting together with him and watching that the change happen in his life.
我现在会说，他是我在这个地区最常联系的伙伴之一。
And I would say he's like one of my, like, go to guys in the area now.
我只是在见证他生活中的成长。
I'm just watching that growth happen in his life.
我的意思是，有个来自佛罗里达的故事，就是一个绝佳的例子。
I mean, there's guys that there's a story that comes out of Florida, just that prime example.
他的妻子正准备把离婚协议书递给他。
His wife was about to hand him divorce papers.
但他报名参加了‘Strong27’的导师计划。
And he's like, he signed up for doing strong twenty seven in a mentorship.
后来她告诉他，本来打算给你这些文件的，但看到你成长，看到你成为上帝呼召你成为的那个人，我觉得我们没必要这么做。
And she told him the story on the backside like, hey, was gonna give you these papers, but watching you grow and watch you become the man that God's called you to be, I don't we don't need to do that.
他们希望继续成长，婚姻也日益美满，真是个了不起的故事。
Like, I wanna continue to grow and their marriage is blossoming and it's an amazing story.
这个故事在我们的YouTube频道上。
It's on our YouTube channel.
但这就是我们所从事的事业——见证上帝改变人生。
But, like, that's what that's what we're in the business for, of watching God's change life.
一次又一次地见证祂改变人们的生命。
Like, watching him change lives over and over again.
这可能是一件小事。
And it could be something small.
我觉得有时候男性总认为生活中必须要有某种巨大的改变。
I think that sometimes guy guys always think it has to be some massive thing in our lives.
在上帝把那些大事赐给你之前，先认真对待这些小事。
Like, take the little things serious first before God's gonna give you some of this big stuff.
你每天有读经吗？
Like, are you in the word daily?
男性们不妨照照镜子，稍微留意一下。
And guys look in the mirror, maybe a little bit.
对吧？
Right?
但我们要从小事做起。
But let's start small.
我们要设定小目标，即使没完全达成，影响也不会太大。
Let's aim, you know, aim small, miss small.
这是我最喜欢的句子之一。
That's one of my favorite lines.
如果你的目标非常精确，比如设定一个目标：我每天早上都要读圣经。
If you're aiming at something that's really precise, making that goal, I'm gonna read my bible every morning.
我每天要读一节经文。
I'm gonna read a verse.
完美。
Perfect.
我们就从这里开始吧。
Let's start there.
我开车上班时会听贾斯汀牧师的讲道。
I'm gonna listen to pastor Justin's message as I'm driving to work.
完美。
Perfect.
就这么做。
Do that.
我们就从这里开始。
Let's start there.
因为上帝会看着。
Because God is gonna watch.
这个周末，那些人心里会有所触动。
It's gonna churn something in them from the guys this weekend.
他们会觉得，是的，我生活中需要这个。
They're like, yeah, I need this in my life.
这时，成长就开始了。
That's when the growth starts to happen.
你有没有看到一些人对此持怀疑态度，或者感到被束缚？
Do you see guys that are maybe a little suspicious about it or feeling held back?
在男人的生活中，有哪些东西可能阻碍了他们？
What could be some things in men's lives that are holding them back?
他们可能会有怀疑，觉得这只是给那些其他人准备的。
They can be suspicious in the sense, ah, this is just something for these other guys.
这不适合我。
This isn't for me.
在内心深处，我认为所有男人都知道他们会有不安全感，会有恐惧，但他们也明白，生活远不止他们目前所经历的那些。
Deep down, I think all men know they can have insecurity, they can have fear, but they do know that there's more to life than maybe what they're living with at the moment.
他们只是在自动驾驶模式下努力生存，但内心可能正在枯竭。
And they're just on cruise control and they're trying to survive, but they're maybe internally dying.
他们内心极度渴望改变。
They're desperate internally.
但可能有什么东西在束缚着我，我在自己的生活中也感受到，有什么东西在阻碍我，而我知道我想要更多。
But there could be something, and I felt it in my own life that there's something that's holding me back, that I do know that I want more.
但舒适是其中一种因素，舒适意味着可预测。
But comfort is one of those things that comfort is something where it's predictable.
我知道自己不会受到挑战，也不会失败。
It's something that I know that I am not going to be challenged and I'm not going to fail.
我的意思是，失败可能是其中一个重要因素——如果我投身于一件我陌生的事情，也许我会觉得自己不够格。
I mean, it could failure could be a big part of it, that if I engage with something that is unknown to me, maybe I'm not gonna be enough.
但你有没有注意到，有些什么因素让男性无法真正投入到上帝为他们生命所计划的事情中呢？
But are there a few things that you see in men that hold them back from actually engaging with what God wants for them in their life?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为最主要的是，他们觉得自己在经历的事情是独一无二的。
I think the biggest thing is they think they're alone in what they're doing.
没有人会经历我正在经历的这些。
No one else is going through what I'm going through.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得只有我在这个方面挣扎，或者我的生活中发生过这样的事，别人都无法理解。
I'm the only one that's struggling in this area or had this happen in my life and no one else understands.
我觉得我们总是回到那个周末的话题。
I think we go back to just the we keep going back to the weekend.
但那个周末，我们走遍了那个房间。
But that weekend, we went around that room.
我们很多人都经历过类似的事情。
A lot of us went through the same stuff pretty easily.
是的。
Mhmm.
严重程度不同，你知道的，也就是程度不一样。
Different severity levels, different, you know, I mean, different degrees of it.
但我们所有人都经历过同样的事情。
But we all went through the same stuff.
我认为有些男性抱着一种想法，觉得只有自己才遇到这种事。
And I think some guys, we live this mentality that got it's only happening to me.
说白了，有点受害者心态。
A little bit of a victim mentality, truthfully.
是的。
Mhmm.
事实并非如此。
Not the case.
很多男性都在经历各种问题。
A lot of guys are going through stuff.
只是你听不到罢了。
You just don't hear about it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为他们把情绪憋在心里。
Because they hold it in.
他们把事情藏在自己心里。
They keep it to themselves.
这才是真正摧毁他们的原因，说实话。
And that's what's really destroying them, truthfully.
他们一直把那些情绪压抑下去。
They keep they keep pushing that stuff down.
他们一直压抑着，我觉得我应该怎样怎样，你知道的，我在这个方面很挣扎，但我能跟谁说呢？
They keep holding back on, I feel like I deserve I don't know, you know, I'm struggling in this area, but who am I gonna tell?
我不想告诉我的牧师，因为他会对我有某种看法。
Like, I don't wanna tell my pastor because he's gonna think a certain way towards me.
是的。
Mhmm.
我不太愿意和教会里的男性交谈，因为我不知道他们会怎么看待我。
I don't I'm not comfortable talking with the men in my church because I don't know how, know, what they're gonna think about me.
是的。
Mhmm.
这就是我喜欢在教会里为男性营造一种开放、坦诚氛围的原因。
That's what I love about, like, creating an environment, a vulnerability inside the church with men.
我不是在说要变得软弱。
I'm not talking about being soft.
是的。
Mhmm.
这实际上是一种力量。
Like, it's it's it's actually a strength.
因此，当我们创造这样的环境时，你们的弟兄们会更自由地彼此交流，帮助对方走出困境。
So as we create that, it's that an environment, your guys are more free to talk to one another to help them out and pull them out of that mire.
我经常想到这一点。
Like, I think of that all the time.
一旦教会营造出这样的环境，我知道作为一个男人，我可以去那个教会，分享我正在经历的事情。
Like, once that church creates that environment, and I know as a man, I can go to that church and I can share what's I'm going through.
我知道我不会因为自己的遭遇而被评判、被拉到外面殴打或用石头砸。
And I know I'm not gonna get judged or taken out back and beat or stoned because of what I'm going through.
是的。
Mhmm.
但这是一个可以坦诚相待的地方。
But it's an open place that can be vulnerable.
想象一下，从中能产生怎样的成长。
Imagine the growth that can happen out of that.
是的。
Mhmm.
男生们可以进来，敞开怀抱，说：我真的很糟糕。
Guys can come in and be like, arms open, like, I'm I'm down bad.
是的。
Mhmm.
我状态很差，需要有人带我回到耶稣身边。
I'm down and having guys that are gonna take me, like, bring me back to Jesus.
这正是我生活中所需要的。
Like, I need it in my life.
所以我觉得这才是最重要的事。
So I think that's like the biggest thing.
男生们以为自己是孤单的。
Guys think that they're alone.
他们觉得自己是唯一承受这种痛苦的人。
They're the only ones suffering in this capacity.
其实很多男生都在经历这些。
A lot of guys are going through it.
我参与Men of Iron这个项目已经两年了，可以说，有很多男性其实正在经历类似的问题。
I've been in I've been doing this for two years with Men of Iron, and I can say there's a lot more guys you think going through stuff.
他们可能只是不愿意承认，或者不认为自己真的在经历，但他们确实在承受。
They just maybe don't wanna agree with it, or don't think that it is, but yet they're going through it.
拥有一个我可以敞开心扉的环境，这一切都变得完全不同。
And having that environment that I can be open with, it makes all the difference.
在参与事工、长期与男性建立关系的过程中，我发现他们最终会向你倾诉。
It was interesting too, in just being in the ministry and having relationships with guys over a period of time, they're gonna confide in you.
我们听到了一些男性在挣扎于色情内容的问题。
And we heard from a few of the guys just struggling with pornography.
在当今这个时代，色情内容如此普遍，正是因为获取它太过容易。
And pornography is so prevalent in the day and age that we're living in just because of the easy access to it.
我们教会中一位领袖曾向我们分享了他的见证，讲述他在大学时如何深受色情内容困扰。
And one of the guys who is a leader in our church gave us a testimony about when he was in college and he was struggling with pornography.
有一次，他的教练在某个周六召集了一次会议，说：‘伙计们，’
And his coach called for a meeting on one Saturday and said, hey, guys.
听好了。
Listen.
我想跟你们分享一下我的见证，关于我生活中曾陷入性罪恶，它如何摧毁了我，而我又多么孤独地承受着。
I wanna just give you my testimony about how I had sexual sin in my life and how it was destroying me and how I was alone in it.
我知道你们中有些人可能也在经历同样的挣扎。
And I know you guys could be struggling with the same thing.
那是一群男人。
And it was a group of guys.
我不确定具体有多少人，大概是八个或十个男人。
I don't know how many, eight guys or 10 guys.
他说：听好了。
And he said, listen.
我希望你们每个人周六早上都来，我会帮你们度过这个难关。
I just want you guys to show up on Saturday morning, and I'm just gonna help you guys through this.
这个年轻人上个周末跟我们分享了他的见证，他说这彻底改变了他，因为他当时正深陷这个困境，而将它带到光中，与同样挣扎的弟兄们分享。
And this young man on this past weekend was telling us the testimony, and he said that changed him completely because he was struggling in that area and just bringing it to the light with other guys who are struggling with the same thing.
但有一位领袖愿意坦诚地说：嘿。
But having one leader that was vulnerable enough to say, hey.
我过去也曾为此挣扎。
I've struggled with this in the past.
我现在已经不再了。
I no longer do.
我在这件事上得胜了。
I have victory in it.
我也希望你们能拥有同样的得胜，让你们在结婚时不会带着这种罪、这种隐藏的罪进入婚姻。
And I want that same victory for you guys so that you guys can be prepared when you get married that you're not going into the marriage with this sin, this hidden sin.
这并不是说我们围坐在一起，只谈论自己生命中最深最黑暗的罪，或我可能有的某个问题。
And it's not as though that we're sitting around and we're just talking about the deepest, darkest sins that we have in our life or one issue that maybe I have.
完全不是这样，但与此同时，我们能在弟兄之间营造一种这样的环境。
It's it's not that at all, but it's at the same time being able to have an environment with brothers.
是的。
Yep.
那些与你并肩同行的人，他们可能不在你前面，也不是你的下属。
Guys that are alongside of you that maybe aren't in front of you or they're not under you.
你并没有在带领他们，但你们是朋友，是弟兄。
You're not discipling them, but your acquaintances with them or brothers with them.
你能对他们坦诚开放，说：我正在为此挣扎。
And you're being able to be honest and open with them in the sense of I'm struggling with this.
当你听到另一位弟兄也说‘我也有同样的挣扎’时，突然间，你就把这个问题带到了光中，共同承认这件事正在毁灭我们，而我们并不想这样，我们该如何摆脱它，并让基督成为中心，从而在前行的过程中获得医治与健康。
And if you hear another brother say I'm struggling with it as well, then all of a sudden, you're bringing that thing to the light and both acknowledging that this thing is destroying us and we don't want it to, how do we get through it and bringing Christ into the center of it so that you can have healing and health as you move forward.
在教会中拥有这样的环境，真是太棒了。
That's a incredible thing to have in a church.
看到彼此的问责是通往健康的关键，我们无法独自完成这一切。
And to see that accountability to each other is the way to health, that we can't do this thing on our own.
我认为，对于男性来说，我们不愿意展现这种软弱，因为我们想显得坚强。
And I think with men, we don't want to show that because we want to be strong.
我们希望在教会的男性群体中保持自己的声誉，但这种想法反而会阻碍我们真正对自身生命和其他弟兄的生命产生影响和成长。
We want to have our reputation with with other men in the church, but that can hold us back from being able to actually have an impact and growth in our own life and other men's lives as well.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得拥有其他弟兄真的非常关键。
I think that's so crucial to have, like, other guys.
我们之前提到过一点，马克，我有没有那些会带我靠近耶稣的弟兄？
We talked about a little bit, Mark, Like, do I got guys that are gonna take me to Jesus?
就像我们在周二的《铁汉》播客中谈到的那样。
Like, that are gonna we talked about the actually, on Tuesday on our podcast with Men of Iron.
我说的是那些愿意为我拆掉屋顶的弟兄。
And, like, I'm talking guys that are gonna cut roofs open for me.
他们会推开别人，把我直接降到耶稣面前，因为我知道那里才有医治。
Like, knock people out of the way, lower me down into in into Jesus' area so I know what that's where the healing is.
我有这样的人吗？
Do I have them?
我不认为所有弟兄都有这样的伙伴。
And I don't think all guys do.
说实话，我知道我没有。
Truthfully, I know I don't.
我知道我不是拥有所有这样的人。
I know I don't have them all.
我虽然在为铁汉工作，但还不够完美，还没有拥有所有这样的人。
I'm not perfect at I work for out of iron, but I don't have them all yet.
对吧？
Right?
但找到那些我能坦诚相待、会推动我的人。
But finding guys I can be open and honest with that are gonna push me.
对吧？
Right?
塞萨尔·弗洛雷斯就是我这样的朋友。
Cesar Flores is that guy for me.
他是我最信赖、最常找的人。
Like, he is my go to go to guy.
他激励着我。
He pushes me.
他给我发送那些经文，适时地给予指引，并让我保持自律。
He sends me those verses, that word in season, keeps me accountable.
这就是你生活中所需要的。
Like, that's what you need in your life.
他正推动我更进一步。
He's pushing me closer.
这让我成为一个更好的丈夫、更好的父亲、更好的领导者。
It makes me a better husband, better father, better leader.
这就是我所需要的。
Like, that's what I need.
当我们有可以一起走过人生旅程的弟兄时，就是这样的时刻。
And, like, that's when we have brothers that we can do life together with.
真正的影响力就发生在这样的地方。
That's where the impact really happens.
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