446. 与苏西·米勒谈及其他

但他表示，因为我们没有被告知要确认并确保获得同意，所以我们只是默认了同意。

But he said, because we weren't told check-in and make sure there's consent that we just assumed consent.

他说，我不是说过去从来没有过没有 consent 的情况，但我确实没有对此足够谨慎。

And he said, I'm not saying there was a time that I don't think there was, but I certainly wasn't careful about it.

我只是假设，只要她们在场且没有推开我，那就是双方都同意了。

I just assumed if they're there and they're not pushing me away that we're on.

这一直让我印象深刻，因为它让我意识到这种男性叙事是什么——那就是，你害怕有来自你过去的人说：‘你还记得那次吗？’，而你心里想：‘天啊，我那时喝得烂醉。’

And it really stayed with me because it made me realize what that male narrative is, is that there's a bit of a fear of maybe someone coming from your past saying, You know that time, and you're thinking, Oh God, was so drunk.

我不太记得具体发生了什么。

I don't remember exactly what happened.

在当今这个时代，这可能显得有点奇怪或带有强迫性，但当时我们所有人都在这么做。

In this day and age, it might be a bit strange or coercive, but at the time it was what we were all doing.

我觉得现在，你真的很难对你的孩子说出这种话。

And I feel like there's a fear now of actually saying that to your kids.

我那个年代，我不知道。

In my day, I don't know.

有些时候我会回想起那些时刻，希望自己当时能再多确认一下。

There were times that I would look back on and think, I would wish that I would have checked a bit more on that occasion.

所以我现在并不觉得这件事让我不安。

So I didn't feel uneasy about this now.

我想这确实是我真正的动力，因为我想到，天啊，女性们竭尽全力确保自己的儿子不会成为强奸犯。

And I guess that was real motivation for me because I thought, God, women do everything they can do to make sure their boys don't become rapists.

她们竭尽全力确保自己的女儿不会被强奸。

They do everything they can do to make sure their daughters don't get raped.

父亲们也竭尽全力确保自己的女儿不会被强奸。

And their fathers do everything they can do to make sure their daughters don't get raped.

但父亲们却不知道该如何跟儿子们谈论尊重女性、倾听她们，以及真正地与他们讨论同意的问题。

But the fathers don't know how to talk to their boys about what it is to respect women and hear them and to actually talk about consent with them.

他们希望学校在做这件事，或者妈妈在做，或者认为孩子总能自己搞明白。

And I think they hope that school's doing it or that mom's doing it or that somehow they're just going to figure it out.

把这么重要的事完全留给男孩们在自己的小圈子里自己摸索，实在太过重大。

And it's a big thing to leave just to figure out like in their own little circles of boys.

男孩们对网上看到的关于女孩可以随意挑选、而我们却要排队等候这类现象感到非常愤怒，这是一种强烈的反弹情绪。

And there's a lot of anger with boys in terms of what they see online about girls can pick and choose and we have to wait in line and all of this kind of like backlash.

所以我只是想问，所有这些男性榜样都在做什么？

So I just think what are all those male role models doing?

他们需要挺身而出。

They need to step up.

现在正是他们应该坦诚地说：我对这个话题也有点脆弱，因为我并不确定自己过去总是做对了。

This is the time where they even have to say, I'm a bit vulnerable about this conversation because I'm not sure I was always spot on with it.

我觉得这对父亲和儿子来说，很可能是一次非常艰难的对话。

And I think that's probably a really hard conversation for a dad and a son to have.

儿子会以不同的眼光看待他吗？

Will son look at him differently?

是的，哪怕只是说：我知道这很难，我知道你有时会感到被拒绝，但在一个以关系为基础的社会里，被拒绝是其中的一部分，你不可能因为自己想要，就一定能得到对方的认可。

Yeah, well even just to say, I know it's hard to know, and I know sometimes you feel rejected, but being rejected is part of being in a relationship based society, but you don't always have someone accept that you're the right person for them just because you want it to be or whatever.

所以有很多事情，我的意思是，我没法告诉你具体该谈什么。

So there's a lot, mean, I can't tell you what the conversation is.

我没有答案。

I do not have the answers.

我的意思是，人们总以为你写了一部剧就意味着你有答案，但我觉得我只开启了这场对话的开端。

I mean, everyone always thinks when you write a play that you have the answers, but I just have the beginning of the conversation, I think.

我认为，作为文化的一种产物，我们所能提供的就是指出：这是一场我们都应该参与的对话。

And I think that's all that we can offer as a cultural kind of artifact is to say, this is a conversation we could all be having.

这不仅可能改变我们女儿的命运，也可能改变我们儿子的命运。

And that might change things not just for our daughters, but also for our sons.

也可能改变下一代的命运。

And also for the next generation.

我认为，在剧的结尾，观众会留下一个画面：在这一特定阶段之后，我们究竟在哪里出了错，以至于我们不再与孩子沟通，甚至不知道如何就一些对他们健康成长至关重要的事情展开对话？

And I think at the very end of the play, there's an image that the audience are left with, which says, where do we go wrong after this particular period that we actually stop communicating with our children to the point where we don't really know how to have conversations about certain things that are fundamental to their healthy growth?

是的。

Yes.

这一点确实非常明显。

That really comes through.

目前，全球各地的生殖权利正受到攻击。

At the moment, reproductive rights are under attack all over the world.

法律正在被撤销，诊所被迫关闭，选择权正被当作可有可无的东西。

Laws are being rolled back, clinics are being forced to close, and the right to choose is being treated like it's optional.

这就是为什么我想向你们介绍一下MSI生殖选择组织。

That's why I want to tell you about MSI Reproductive Choices.

MSI是一家全球领先的生殖健康慈善机构，在36个国家开展工作，提供并倡导避孕和堕胎服务，更重要的是，尽可能维持这些服务的开放。

MSI is a world leading reproductive health care charity working across 36 countries to provide and advocate for contraception and abortion, and crucially, to keep services open wherever they can.

面对对生殖权利的攻击，MSI坚守阵地。

In the face of attacks on reproductive rights, MSI is holding the line.

他们为那些本会被剥夺护理、选择权和对自己未来掌控权的女性和女孩提供支持。

They're there for women and girls who would otherwise be denied care, choice and control over their own futures.

这并不是抽象的概念。

This isn't abstract.

当获取途径受到限制时，人们会被逼入危险的境地，后果是毁灭性的。

When access is restricted, people are pushed into dangerous situations, and the consequences are devastating.

MSI呼吁全世界选择选择权，而你可以成为这一行动的一部分。

MSI is calling on the world to choose choice, and you can be part of that.

如果你有能力，请向MSI生殖健康组织捐赠，支持生殖自由。

If you're able to, please support Reproductive Freedom with a donation to MSI Reproductive Choices.

请直接访问 m s I choices dot org。

Just go to m s I choices dot org.

网址是 msichoices.org，感谢你帮助坚守这条底线。

That's msichoices.org, and thank you for helping hold a line.

像我一样，前往 msichoices.org 加入他们的社会影响力行动。

Join their movement for social impact like I have at msichoices.org.

过去，创伤同样真实，因为那是70年代、80年代或90年代。

In the past, the trauma is as real just cause it was the 70s or the 80s or the 90s.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

这种创伤同样真实，甚至更严重，因为当时根本没有人承认它的存在。

The trauma is just as real if not more so because there was no acknowledgement of it.

很多创伤源于缺乏一个可信的见证者。

And a lot of trauma is lack of a credible witness.

所以至少现在会有一些人愿意承认，即使你无法在法庭上获得正义，或者你根本不敢去报警，因为你担心这会毁掉你的生活，而对方也不会受到惩罚。

And so at least now there will be some people who will acknowledge, even if you don't get justice in court, there will be, or you don't even dare go to court because you're thinking it's just gonna ruin my life and he won't go down for it.

过去的创伤甚至更严重，因为没人会说‘你只是不该去参加派对’。

The trauma is if anything worse in the past, because no one would say that just say, well, you shouldn't have, why were you at the party?

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

你为什么穿那么短的裙子？

Why were you wearing a short skirt?

我经常对人们说，当一个人第一次向他们信任的人倾诉——无论是母亲、姐妹还是朋友——我们每个人作为女性，迟早都会向认识的人透露一些经历，而你给出的回应，将深刻影响这个人如何处理这段经历。

And one of the things that I often say to people is the first disclosure somebody makes to someone that they trust, whether it's their mother or their sister or their friend, and all of us will have some disclosure at some stage as women from someone that we know, the response you give really dictates how that person processes.

如果你说：‘你为什么又回到他家？’

And if you say, Why did you go back to his house?

或者：‘天啊，你喝了多少酒？’

Or, Oh God, how many drinks did you have?

你实际上在不知不觉中，本能地试图将这种事归类为不太可能发生的事情，这反而严重削弱了当事人的经历，而不是承认我们每个人都有可能遇到这种情况。

You're actually without realizing it, your instinctive response to try and categorize that as something that wouldn't happen easily, basically diminishes that person's experience profoundly rather than acknowledging that we're all out there.

虽然我不再出去约会了，但我们都还在约会，年轻人现在用应用程序，老年人也一样。

Well, I'm not out there dating anymore, but we're all out there dating and young people are on apps now as are older people.

要与他人建立联系，你就得承担风险。

And in order to be involved with other people, you take risks.

你去和某人喝咖啡或喝一杯。

You go and have coffee or a drink with someone.

所以，避免信任错人的唯一方法就是根本不信任任何人。

So the only way to avoid trusting the wrong person is to just not trust anyone.

但这种做法也完全不可行，尤其是当人们希望与他人建立关系和联系时。

And that's also just untenable in terms of if people want relationships and connections with other human beings.

因此，任何一个人，如果信任并喜欢某人，决定在喝完酒、聊完天后和对方一起去散步，这并不是什么激进的行为。

So anyone that takes the risk of someone that they trusted and liked and decides to go for a walk with them after a drink and a conversation, that's not a big radical act.

这只不过表明：我是一个渴望人际关系的成年人。

That's something that says, I'm an adult person that wants relationships.

因此，将这种绝对创伤性和暴力的结果归咎于某人，是与我们积极融入社会、本身并未做错任何事的事实相矛盾的。

And so to put it back on someone that resulted in something absolutely traumatic and violent is not consistent with the way that we they haven't done anything wrong by actively engaging in our community.

当然。

Of course.

而杰西卡，作为法官，这当然就是她的行事风格。

And Jessica, the judge, that is of course her as a judge and a woman, that is her MO.

在她的法庭上，她不会允许人们说：‘但你当时穿了什么？’

She won't have in her courtroom people saying, oh, but surely you What were you wearing?

我们当时穿了什么？

What were we wearing?

这种事现在仍然在发生。

And that kind of thing that does still go on.

她不会允许这种事，但我觉得自己特别像哈姆雷特。

She won't have that, but then she, I feel very much like Hamlet.

我喜欢这部剧的原因是，它不仅仅是一部关于女性身份或母性的剧，更是一部探讨深刻人性问题的作品，我认为这正是任何伟大戏剧的核心。

Like what I love about the play is that it's not just a play about womanhood or motherhood or any of those things, but it's also a play about that deep human question, which I think is at the heart of any great play.

当然，每一部莎士比亚悲剧都向作为人类的你提出一个道德困境。

Every Shakespearean tragedy of course, is as a human being, here is your moral dilemma.

你是一个人，这里有你的原则。

You're a person, here's your principles.

但当事情变得个人化时，你会牺牲这些原则吗？

But when something becomes personal, do you sacrifice those principles?

你会怎么做？

What do you do?

我认为我们都理解这种困境。

I think we all understand that dilemma.

我的意思是，我们所有人，即使只是在小范围内，都明白这种两难：你原本发誓在这种情况发生时一定要这么做，但这次牵涉到的是你的孩子。

I mean, all of us, even if it's in a small way, understands the dilemma of making a decision that you think, well, God, I want to do this because this is what I always said I would do in this scenario, but it's my kid.

所以，我的意思是，每个人大概都能体会到这种感受——也许不是每个人，但任何有过小孩的人都可能经历过孩子被排斥或被欺凌的时刻。

So like, I mean, everyone knows the feel, I don't know, maybe not everyone, but anyone who's had small children has probably had a moment where their child has been left out or bullied.

你为孩子所感到的愤怒，本质上就是母性或父性的体现。

The fury that you have on behalf of that child is so innately like motherhood or fatherhood.

但即便你最大的快乐是冲出去斥责那个欺负你孩子的孩子，你也知道在社区里你并不会真的这么做。

And yet, like even if your greatest joy is to go out and yell at the child that was mean to your kid, you know that you don't really do that in a community.

但你抵制这种做法的原因是，你心里明白：不，这并不是正确的做法，尽管这正是我内心想做的。

But the resistance of doing that is you going, no, that's not the right way to actually even though that's what I wanna do.

对杰西卡而言，情况同样如此，但她的处境更为严峻；她的整个行事准则就是成为一名女权主义者、一名法官，相信法律体系能够从内部改变，认识到年轻女性作为性侵受害者所面对的不平等环境，并试图在法庭上注入一些同理心。

So it's the same, but for Jessica, the stakes are really high and her whole kind of modus operandi is to be a feminist and to be a judge and to believe that the legal system can change from within and to recognize that it's an uneven playing field for young women who are victims of sexual assault and also to try and bring some compassion into a court arena.

然而，当她身处另一种情境时，她意识到所有那些关于强奸的迷思和根深蒂固的观念，实际上都是人们用来解释自己无辜的借口——当他们被指控时。

And yet when she's in a different situation, she realizes that all of those rape myths and all of those entrenched ideas actually of what people lean into to explain their innocence in a scenario where they're accused of something.

因此，她被重重困境牢牢困住。

And so she's absolutely trapped in so many different paradigms.

我不知道，也许人们得去看这部剧，才能知道她最终会做出什么决定。

And I don't know, I mean, I guess people have to see the play to see what she decides to do.

但毫无疑问，你在人性层面上与她站在一起，理解她自己制造的困境——她的道德观与母性之间的冲突，而她如何应对，正是这部剧核心的人性命题。

But certainly you're with her in that humanity and in that trap of her own making her own, the trap of her own morality clashing with her motherhood and how she proceeds is of course the big human question at the center of that.

我采访了大约十位来自不同法院的女法官，每人访谈时长高达两小时。

And I interviewed like 10 women judges from all different courts for like, got up to two hours each.

在我听完了她们的生活经历、在法庭上让她们感到不公的事情，以及她们认为司法系统对女性不公平的地方之后。

And after I'd heard all about their life and the things that upset them in court and where they found it was uneven for women in the judicial system.

有没有一些有趣或奇怪的小例子？比如那些巨大的假发戴起来是什么感觉？

And what are some of the little examples that were funny or weird, or what was wig hair like with one of those massive wigs on?

因为你一出场，头发看起来完全不一样，而且之后也不能出去喝酒，因为头发都压扁了。

Because you come out and your hair looks completely different and you can't go out for a drink after because you've got flat hair.

大多数男性都是秃头，所以这种情况对他们影响不大。

Most of the men are bald, so it doesn't seem to apply as much.

即使抛开男性特权不谈。

Even aside All male privilege.

是的，这些假发本来就是为那些不必担心这种事的人设计的。

Yeah, well, they're designed for people that don't have to worry about something like that.

整个系统是以一种不同的方式构建的，她们必须去适应、尝试协商，让系统变得更加公正。

And how the whole system is designed in a different way that they have to sort of figure out and try and negotiate and make it more kind of even handed.

话虽如此，我随后把杰西卡的困境提给了每一位法官。

Having said that, every one of them, I then put Jessica's dilemma to them.

让我惊讶的是，他们完全没有做到这一点。

And what was astounding to me was the way they absolutely hadn't.

有些人曾想过这种可能性，但在访谈中面对这个问题时，他们的反应令人惊叹。

Some of them had thought of the possibility, but the grappling with it in the interview was just extraordinary.

他们得出了不同的结果。

And they came out with different results.

并不是每个人都说：我肯定这么做。

Not everyone said, I definitely do this.

他们说的是：我希望自己会这么做，但我想我可能会那样做。

It was like, I'd like to think I did this, but I think I'd do that.

或者：不，不管是不是我的孩子，我都会全力以赴。

Or no, I don't care if it's my kid, I'm just going all out.

我不在乎是否不公平。

I don't care if it's unfair.

这让我觉得非常有趣，因为它让我思考我会怎么做。

It was really interesting to me because it made me think about what would I do.

我认为另一点是，性侵和强奸案件极少被判定有罪。

I think the other thing is that sexual assault and rape cases are so profoundly and so rarely are they found to be, I guess, is a guilty verdict found.

因此，没有人愿意认罪，因为即使认罪能获得较轻的刑罚，你反而更有可能脱罪。

That it's never ever in anyone's interest to plead guilty because even though it gives you a lesser sentence, you're much more likely to get off.

所以，即使你真的做了，又为什么要认罪呢？

So why would you even if you did it?

因此，这部剧也深入探讨了法庭，以及我们允许人们在明知自己有罪的情况下，仍坚持去法庭抗辩——因为只要你觉得自己胜算更大，就值得去试一试，毕竟天平总是倾向于某种特定的叙事。

And so it also, the play really looks at the court and how much we allow people to Even when someone has actually knows that they've done something, it's always worth testing it in court if you think you've got a much better chance because the playing field always does tend towards favoring a certain narrative.

我想这部剧在结尾做了一些不同的处理。

And I guess the play does something different at the end.

我不想透露具体是什么，但它确实呈现了这种情境下另一种可能的结果，以及当一个人犯下极其严重的错误时，责任的承担或许会带来截然不同的结局——虽然依然糟糕，但或许更好。

And I don't want to tell you what it does, but it actually shows a different outcome for that kind of scenario and whether as a consequence, even when you've made a terrible, terrible mistake, how maybe accountability is something that has a different outcome for you ultimately, terrible but maybe better.

这种想法完全超出了性侵案件的司法经验，甚至也超出了整个刑事司法体系的常规认知。

Mean, just the idea of that is so outside the judicial experience of sexual assault and even the criminal justice system's experience.

但我想，它只是在提出一种可能性。

But just, I guess it's just raising a possibility.

我认为人们看完这部剧后，有些人坚决认为，无论结局如何，自己绝不会那样做。

And I think people walk out of the play and some of them are adamant that whatever happened at the ending, they would never do.

而另一些人则完全持相反的坚定观点。

And other people are adamant in the opposite way completely.

还有一些人感到非常难过，因为他们意识到，结局并没有带来巨大的胜利。

And some of them just feel really sad because they realise what, that there wasn't a big win.

无论后果如何，很多人都承受着极大的痛苦。

Whatever the consequences are, a lot of people are suffering really badly.

这正是我希望人们去讨论的对话。

And that to me is exactly the conversation I want people to have.

我想参与其中。

Want to be part of it.

我希望在每一场晚餐后，都能听到这样的讨论。

I want to have an ear at every dinner table afterwards.

奇怪的是，我收到了很多私信，人们主动联系我，说：‘这正是我们之后讨论的话题。’

And strangely, I've got loads of DMs of people actually contacting me and saying, Oh, this is the conversation we had afterwards.

就在昨晚，我去看了一场演出，我的一位朋友已经是第二次看了。

And if I just last night I was at the play and a friend of mine had seen it for the second time.

她说，她丈夫第一次和她一起看的时候，回家后对孩子们说：你们是不是觉得我是家里最受重视的那个人，因为我是爸爸，又是医生？

And she said her husband who'd seen it with her the first time went home to his children and said, Do you see me as the one that everyone takes more seriously in the family because I'm the dad and I'm the doctor?

他的女儿回答：是的，完全没错。

And his daughter goes, Yeah, absolutely.

他说：我根本没想到我家会是这样。

He said, I just didn't think that was happening in my family.

我只是觉得，就连他都需要想上一会儿，这说明他在家里确实有一种他本人并未察觉的分量。

I just thought even the fact that he had to think about that for a minute, he does carry a gravitas in the family that he's not even aware of.

我认为，任何艺术作品能让人思考自己在家庭中、在更广阔世界中的角色，以及这如何影响他们养育或照顾的人，都是极好的成果。

I just think that's a great outcome for any piece of art to make people think about who they are in their family, in their greater world, how that affects the people they're raising or being

与。

with.

你的作品确实产生了巨大的影响。

Your work does have a huge impact.

我知道在《初步举证》中，它确实改变了

I know in prima facie, it has literally changed the way that the

这个国家乃至其他国家的法律运作方式。

law operates in this country and possibly other countries.

你能解释一下发生了什么吗？

Can you just explain what happened?

是的，这让我感到震惊。多年前我在澳大利亚的一个暗室里写《初步举证》时，我想，哦，我不知道，我该怎么推销这部剧呢？

Yeah, mean, it's astonishing to me when I wrote Prima facie in a dark room in Australia many years ago, I thought, Oh, I don't know, maybe how am I ever gonna pitch this play?

这是一部关于某人被强奸的戏剧，但有点搞笑。

It's a play about someone who gets raped, but it's a bit funny.

我当时想，我也不知道。

I thought, I don't know.

我无法想象有人会排演那部剧。

I can't imagine anyone ever putting that play on.

然后我想，哦，好吧，我真的很想写它。

And I thought, Oh, well, really wanna write it.

所以我以一种狂热的状态写完了它，想着我总可以和一位刚从戏剧学院毕业的朋友的女儿，在马路对面的小剧场里把它演出来。

So I wrote it in a kind of frenzy and thought, I could always put it on the tiny theater up the road with a friend of mine's daughter who's just left acting school.

然后我试着把它推介给一位女性艺术总监，这很有趣，因为在澳大利亚女性艺术总监非常少。

And then I sort of did pitch it to a female artistic director, which is interesting because there's very few of those in Australia.

她立刻就把它搬上了舞台，而且大受欢迎。

And she put it on straight away and it was such a hit.

它恰好击中了时代的脉搏。

And it just sort of hit the zeitgeist.

但在它来到这里之前，它已经在澳大利亚产生了深远的影响。

But it also had a profound effect in Australia before it even came here.

但当时演出的场地较小，它开始在全国巡演，而与此同时，它也来到了这里。

But it was a smaller venue and it started to tour the country, but it came here in the meantime.

我认为，看到它所引发的一切最精彩的地方在于，意识到真正推动变革的并不是你自己。

And I think what was glorious about seeing what happened with it was just thinking it's not yourself that affects the change.

你只是为某件事点亮了一束光，就像点燃了一团火，然后希望观看它的人能在自己的世界里拥有改变世界的力量。

You just put a torch on something, like you light something up and you hope that those who come to see it have the power within their world to change the world.

但也许这种影响仅限于他们回家后，开始以不同的视角看待自己家庭中的问题，或者下次再读到性侵新闻时，能想起剧中提到的那些强奸迷思。

But maybe that's only to the extent that they go home and they actually see things differently in their own family or that next time they read about sexual assault, they remember some of the rape myths that the play talked about.

但在这个案例中，这里的司法系统和法律界完全接受了这部剧，大批人前来观看。

But in this case, the judiciary here and the legal profession here absolutely embraced this play and came out in droves.

但在第三天，我接到了一位伦敦顶级法官的电话。

But on day three, I had a phone call from one of the judges who is like one of the big judges in London.

那是演出后的第三天。

And it was day three after the play.

我讲过这个故事好几次了，如果之前有人听过，我先道歉。

I've told this story a few times, so I apologize if other people have heard it before.

但发生的是，第三天，评论出来了。

But what happened was day three, the reviews were out.

我们当时情绪高涨。

We were like on a high.

终于可以放松了，我正想多睡一会儿，但早上九点电话响了。

Finally, we could relax and I was trying to have a sleep in, but I picked up the phone, it was 9AM.

一位非常高贵的法官告诉我，她整晚都没睡，因为她前一天晚上看了我的剧。

And a very, very posh judge told me that she'd been up all night because she'd seen my play the night before.

从那以后，她一直在思考这部剧。

And she'd been thinking about it ever since.

我当时想，天哪，她是要起诉我吗？

I thought, Oh my God, she's gonna sue me.

接着我又想，糟了，他们会不会要求我们撤下这部剧，因为某种程度上它冒犯了法律界。

And then I thought, Oh no, they're gonna demand that we take it off or something because it's sort of insulting to the legal profession on some level.

于是我屏住呼吸，想着：这部剧刚取得这么好的成绩，我该怎么告诉制作人，它突然就要结束了？

And so I was just like holding my breath thinking, how am I gonna tell the producer after it's done so well that suddenly it's all gonna die?

然后她说：我是那个撰写陪审团指引的法官，每位法官在每起案件后都必须向陪审团宣读这些指引，告诉他们必须考虑什么、不能考虑什么、必须忽略什么。

And then she said, I'm the judge that writes the directions to the jury, which is something that every judge must read out after every crime to the jury to let them know what they must consider and what they can't consider, what they must disregard.

她说：我回去重新审视了关于性侵和强奸案件的陪审团指引。

And she said, I went back and looked at the direction to the jury for sexual assault and rape.

我看了这部剧后，意识到我需要修改它。

And I thought about the play and I realized I needed to change it.

她说，我连夜重写了它，但我是用了这部剧的剧本。

And she said, And I've redrafted it overnight, but I've used She had the script of the play.

她说，我用了剧本里的几句话，就是结尾那段独白里的内容。

And she said, And I've used lines from the script, from that sort of monologue at the end.

我只是想征得许可来使用它们。

And I just wanted to ask permission to use them.

这在剧作家的生涯中并不常见，但当时真的让我感到震撼和兴奋。

Mean, it's not something that happens in a playwright's life very often, but it was just overwhelming and exciting.

你意识到，当你把这样一个小小的作品放出去，它就像池塘里的一颗石子，激起的涟漪决定谁能恰好被触及，以及是否能足够打动他们，让他们愿意运用自己的权力，真正推动现实世界的改变。

And you realize you put this little thing out in the world and really it just either it's a stone in a pond where the ripples go determine who actually happens to catch it and whether it catches them enough and grabs their attention enough that they want to exercise the power that they have to actually affect real change in the real world.

现在，这已经传遍了全国。

And that's now all over the country.

而且国家剧院现场版也被用于司法培训。

And also the NT live version is used in judicial education.

因此，法官在审理强奸案件之前，必须观看《 prima facie》的 filmed 版本。

So judges must see the version of Prima facie, the filmed version of the play before they can sit on rape cases.

所以他们能理解其中的细微差别以及对这一制度的一些批评。

So they understand the nuance and some of the critiques of the system.

嗯，他们现在可有得忙了，因为他们可能还得去和阿里亚谈谈。

Well, they're gonna be busy now because they're also probably gonna have to talk to Alia.

他们会说：天啊，我现在拥有一整套苏西·米勒的作品了。

They're gonna be like my God, I've got a whole collection of Suzie Miller works.

他们现在都成了我的朋友。

They're all friends of mine now.

他们都成了好朋友，这些了不起的女性法官，还有其他法官们。

They've all become buddies, all these fabulous women judges and also just judges generally.

我得说，英国的法官们——无论男女——都令人惊叹。

I have to say the judges in The UK have been astonishing, male and female.

我想有人跟我说过：哦，他们喜欢任何关于他们自己的东西。

I guess someone said to me, Oh, they love anything that's about them.

我不觉得是这样。

I don't think it's that.

我认为这并不总是令人欣慰的，但我认为他们看到了这些问题，而曾经当过律师的人就知道，这并非易事。

I think it's not always flattering either, but I think that they see the issues and someone that used to be a lawyer so that it's not an easy one.

这些问题都很棘手。

They're hard issues.

是的，但每个人都有点主角光环，法官当然也不例外。

Yeah, but everyone's got a bit of main character energy about them and judges certainly will.

你娶了一位法官，

You're married to a judge,

是吧？

aren't you?

对，我忘了，没错，我确实娶了。

Yeah, forgot, yeah, I am.

但正如我经常对他说的，当他穿着短裤懒洋洋地瘫着时，我会说：要是你所监管的那些人现在看到你这样，

But of course, as I always say to him when he's lounging around in his boxer shorts that I go, if the people that you sort of oversee could see you now.

你根本一点都不吓人。

Like you're not intimidating at all.

我特别喜欢的一点是，我觉得在戏剧里从未见过这种设定，它贯穿全剧。

One thing I absolutely loved was, and that I think I've never seen in a play before was the, and it's just woven through.

这是一种轻描淡写的处理，但杰西卡被任命为法官，这是一项巨大的荣誉。

It's like a light touch, but Jessica having been made a judge, which is a huge honor.

而她的丈夫却没有被提名为候选人。

And her husband has not been put forward for this.

他是王室大律师，是资深大律师，却未被考虑过这个职位。

And he's Kings Council, he's a silk, but he has not been considered for this.

而她必须如何应对他的自尊心。

And how she then has to manage his ego.

请谈谈这一点。

Please talk about that.

这对我来说特别有趣，因为我有很多非常成功的女性朋友。

Well, was really interesting to me because I have a lot of women that are my close friends that are so successful at what they do.

她们并不总是嫁给同样成功的人，但当伴侣是男性时，他们总觉得自己得当个贤内助，来平衡自己作为家庭主要经济支柱的身份。

And they're not always married to a partner who is as successful, but when their partner's a man, they're always like a little bit, I've got to be a bit of the domestic goddess to make up for the fact that I'm also someone that is the breadwinner.

他们对男性的自尊非常小心。

And they're just careful about the male ego.

我想这是因为作为一个社会，我们对那些不如妻子成功的男性要求很苛刻。

And I guess it's because as a community, we're hard on men that aren't as successful as their wives.

因此，他们对自己在外界可能不被视为与伴侣平等这件事，有着自己的困扰。

And so they have their own kind of issues with the fact that they're not, they might not be seen as equal to their partner in the world.

但话说回来，我与那十位女性法官交谈时，发现她们都是各自领域的顶尖人物。

But having said that, what was interesting with those 10 female judges that I spoke to, absolutely top of their field.

而且并非她们所有人都有同样成就的丈夫。

And not all of them had husbands who were in the same level.

她们很坦率地谈论到，你在家必须更加注意对方的自尊，同时还要确保其他事情都处理妥当，让家庭运转顺畅，以免出问题。

And they talked about it quite freely and openly about, you realize at home that you've got to be a bit more careful about their ego and you've gotta also be able to sort of make sure other things are done and make sure the house is running smoothly so that it's not.

这真是种很有趣的现象，她们愿意如此慷慨地与我分享她们的私人生活，这些内容，我想，确实是真实的。

And it was just an interesting sort of, it was so generous of them to give me some of their private life and some of that, I mean, it was just, I guess it's real.

这是真实的。

It is real.

我们从不谈论这个。

We don't talk about that.

我们从不谈论这一点，而且这不仅仅是你丈夫的问题。

We don't talk about how, and it's not even just your husband.

我知道，曾经有几次我和一位资历较浅的男律师一起工作，你会总是确保他们不觉得自己低人一等；但另一方面，我也经历过一些资历更深的男律师，他们因为我是女性，就理所当然地认为我迟早会怀孕。

I know that there were times that I would be working with a more junior lawyer and you'd sort of a male lawyer and you'd always make sure that they felt that they weren't less than or, but I don't feel like, and I also had the experience of having much more senior male lawyers treat you as a female, as someone that was obviously gonna go and get pregnant.

所以他们根本不会在你身上投资。

So they weren't going to invest in you.

其实还不止这样，我曾在一家银行或投资银行做过一场活动，因为我有时会在企业里做演讲，尤其是关于性别平等的话题。

It is not even, I did an event at a bank or an investment bank because sometimes I do speaking in corporates, especially about gender equality.

有人问：你们中有多少人目前或过去五年内是家里的主要经济支柱？

And the question was asked how many of you are currently or have been in the last five years the main breadwinner?

然后让大家站起来，结果现场大约75%的人都站了起来。

And it was just stand up if and it was like 75% of the room.

我们就在讨论：为什么我们从不谈论这个问题？

And we were talking about like, why don't we talk about this?

女性们开始发言，说：如果我丈夫拿到了大笔奖金，我们会庆祝。

And the women started speaking and they said, because if my husband gets a big bonus, we celebrate.

如果我拿到大笔奖金，我从不提起。

If I get a big bonus, I don't talk about it.

他也不提，我会藏起来。

He doesn't talk about it, I hide it.

我根本不会大张旗鼓地宣扬。

I just make no big deal.

没错。

Exactly.

但如果是他，我们就出去吃饭，大肆夸他有多棒。

But if it's him, we go out for dinner we go on about how great he is.

我还想提一下那本书，《有罪的女权主义者》，书在后面。

And I talk about some of book, The Guilty Feminist available up at the back.

那是一本很棒的书，我读过，非常精彩。

Which is a great book I've read and it's wonderful.

社交媒体上经常流传一些说法，比如如果女性收入比男性高，她就会失去性吸引力。

There's often things that go around on social media that say, if a woman earns more than a man, she's less sexually attractive.

如果女性比男性更幽默，男性就不会觉得有吸引力。

If a woman's funnier than a man, men don't find that attractive.

我们根本不在乎。

We give a fuck.

这反映了女性在这一问题上的巨大不安全感。

That's to the insecurity of women on such a huge level.

我从未见过任何一篇文章说，如果男性收入比女性高，天哪，女孩们就不会喜欢你了，别太幽默。

I've never seen one single article saying if a man earns more than a woman, oh dear, no girls Oh, will fancy you better not to be too funny.

别太聪明。

You better not be too clever.

别拿博士学位。

You better not have a PhD.

总是这样反过来的。

It's always this way around.

对我来说，看着她操持晚宴，确保盘子都洗了。

To me like watching her do the dinner party, make sure the dishes are washed.

我喜欢那个时刻，他说：别担心盘子，我早上再洗。

I love that moment where he says, don't worry about the dishes, I'll do them in the morning.

她只是看着观众，观众都笑了。

And she just looks at the audience and the audience just laughs.

而她继续做自己的事。

And she gets on with it.

爱意却说：不，

The love goes, no,

他根本不会这么做。

he's not gonna do that at all.

而且我认为，除了当一个超级女性，你还得让他觉得：不，不，不，你很棒。

And I think that then also on top of being that superwoman, you've also got to make him feel like, no, no, no, you're You're great.

你和我一样好，甚至比我更好。

You're as good as I am, or you're better than me.

那

And what

一大堆

a load

可能是这样。

that can be.

我的意思是，你丈夫现在一定为你感到骄傲，你简直太棒了。

I mean, your husband must be so proud of you now, you're like a- Better be.

这场对话。

This conversation.

我打算要

I'm gonna be

我也要玩这个。

playing this one too.

《Show, Primer Face》赢得了托尼奖，这太了不起了。

Show, Primer Face has won a Tony, which is so huge.

嗯，不是剧获托尼奖，是乔迪获了托尼奖。

Well, not the play, Jody won the Tony

那是剧获得了托尼奖。

to That is the play winning a Tony.

这部剧赢得了奥利弗奖，她也赢得了奥利弗奖。

The play won the Olivier and she also won the Olivier.

这是一部

It's a

获托尼奖的剧。

Tony winning play.

别以为

Don't think

他们在美国是这么说的，对吧？

They talk in America, isn't it?

这是获托尼奖的。

It's Tony winning.

这是一部获得托尼奖的剧作。

It's a Tony winning play.

你可以因最佳服装设计获奖，但这部剧依然是托尼奖获奖剧作。

You can win for best costume and you're still a Tony winning play.

你和乔迪·科默之间的合作真是太棒了，这部剧因为她以非凡的方式赋予了生命。

That was such an amazing collaboration between you and Jodi Comer that play because she brought it to life in a magnificent way.

但当然，她所赋予生命的还是剧本本身。

But of course it's the text she's bringing to life.

我确信，如果她在这里，她会说，她……

I'm sure she would say if she were here, was She's

她对剧本非常谦逊，她知道在她之前已经有人演绎过，比如澳大利亚的谢里丹·哈布里奇。而且我必须说，现在已经有太多版本了，因为这部剧已在42个国家上演，仅在德国就有大约20个版本。

very generous about the text and she knows that someone did it before her Sheridan Harbridge in Australia So, as and I have to say now there's been so many tests because it's in 42 countries, but there were like 20 alone in Germany.

尽管德国只是这42个国家中的一个，却有20个制作版本。

Even though Germany is one country of those 42, they had 20 productions.

所以世界各地有这么多版本，它们之间似乎会通过Instagram互相联系。

So there's all these testers all over the world that kind of, I don't know, they liaise with each other on Instagram.

他们都获奖了，因为他们的表演都达到了巅峰状态。

They all win awards because they're all at their absolute peak.

他们演出这部剧是因为它很难演。

And they do this show because it's a hard show.

他们的才华得到了认可。

And they're recognized for their talent.

对我来说，这又是另一件美妙的事。

And that to me is another wonderful.

我希望《Inter Alia》能为不同年龄段的女演员提供一些有深度、有张力的角色，让她们充分展现自己的演技和才华，因为男性总是有哈姆雷特、李尔王以及中间所有的经典角色。

And I hopefully Inter Alia will do that with a different age level of actresses is give them something meaty and juicy that they can absolutely show their range and talent because men always have Hamlet and Lear and all the ones in between.

但除了麦克白夫人之外，女性在舞台上能展现自己非凡魅力的角色真的不多。

But I mean, than Lady Macbeth, women don't have a whole lot of roles that they can just show the world how magnificent they are on stage.

实际上，我现在正在澳大利亚写一部作品，剧中正好有十位女性角色，讲述的是澳大利亚一个女子足球联赛的故事，当时她们想成立女子联赛，却根本无法实现。

And actually at the moment, I'm writing something in Australia that's like literally 10 women on stage that's about this football league in Australia where they wanted a women's league and it just couldn't be done.

当时完全没有任何话语权。

There was absolutely no leverage whatsoever.

然后，这群杰出的女性齐心协力，一点一点地推动，最终迅速行动起来，创建了这个令人惊叹的女子足球联赛，如今已经十年了，规模庞大得惊人。

And then this group of astonishing women across the board came together and slowly chipped away at it and then basically sprung into action and created this amazing women's football league that's now, it's now ten years and it's like absolutely huge.

当然，过去总是对女性参与这项运动持负面态度并加以嘲笑的足球联赛——澳式足球，在全球范围内属于小众领域，但却是一个绝佳的案例研究。

Of course the football league that was always so negative and laughed about women playing this particular football, is Australian rules football, a very niche area for the world, but a wonderful case study.

现在他们意识到，通过周边商品和门票销售，女子足球带来了巨额收入，人人都想观看比赛。

Now they realize they've made so much money out of women's football with merchandise and ticketing and that everyone wanted to see it.

而我采访的这些现役年轻女球员都说：‘我们不记得什么时候没有女子足球了。’

And all these young women now that I'm interviewing for that play say, we don't remember when there wasn't women's football.

我觉得这有多棒啊？

And I think how great is that?

她们甚至不记得女孩们在学校里没有足球可踢的时代。

They don't even remember a time where football for girls wasn't at school.

我不知道，我只是觉得这些成就值得被庆祝，我们需要继续推动，并展示这一切是如何实现的。

And I don't know, I just think these things need to be celebrated and we need to push forward with it and show how that comes about.

我们需要像你这样的剧作家，将这些故事搬上舞台，为女性创作这些重要的角色。

And we need playwrights like you bringing those stories to life and writing these Breviro parts for women.

罗莎琳·派克正在做着非凡的工作。

Rosamyn Pike is doing an extraordinary job.

太棒了。

Amazing.

真的，真的

Really, really

她确实如此。

she is.

她将这一切生动呈现出来，让我无比震撼。

I'm blown away by her bringing it to life.

我还想问你一件事，因为我现在手都激动得发抖了。

And there's just one more thing I wanted to ask you because I'm getting the winded up hands.

不是我。

Not from me.

《Primafacy》是一部独白剧，当有其他角色出现时，女演员必须扮演他们。

Primafacy is a monologue and where there are other characters the actress has to inhabit them.

这真的很有趣，因为她在家里的人是由演员扮演的，但在工作中，她仅通过身体的姿态和表现来扮演所有其他角色。

This was really interesting because her family at home are played by actors, but at work she plays everybody else just by the embodiment and the position of her body.

我不知道自己是否有足够的勇气去做这样的事。

I don't know that I would have been brave enough to do that.

我可以想象自己表演独白，也可以想象演那十个踢足球的女性角色——那就请十个演员吧。

I can imagine doing the monologue and I can imagine doing the 10 women playing football, let's hire 10 actors.

但这种中间状态很特别：家是真实的，而工作则是一种截然不同的生活。

But this in between place where home is real, but work is this sort of other life.

这还让我想谈谈，我很喜欢戏剧的形式能够体现或成为其内容本身。

What It's made you wanna do also about, I love when the form of a play represents the content or becomes the content.

比如我们之前讨论过的布景，但我设计时会考虑谁是自带的角色，谁是主角真正演绎出来、从而能掌控的角色。

Like we talked about the set for example, but the way that I designed who would have a built in character and who would actually be something that the main protagonist actually acts out and therefore has control over.

我只是想表明，在她工作时的叙事中，她始终掌握着主动权。

I just wanted to show that the narrative where she's in the workplace, she's very much in control of.

她对发生的事情做出回应，从心理层面来说，她实际上是个提线木偶师。

And she responds to what happens and she's actually in a mental way is actually the puppeteer.

但在家里，她所居住的那两个男人却能以无数种方式让她陷入困境。

But at home, these two men that she lives with can actually trip her up in so many different ways.

因此，这恰恰表明，女性最脆弱的地方往往是在家中。

So in a way it just shows that the vulnerable place for women is so often at home.

在职场中，我们知道所有的规则和界限，我们就在这些框架内行动；当然，也会有低谷、攻击和各种各样的事情发生。

In the workplace, we know what all the parameters are and we act within it and sure there's some real lows and there's some attacks and there's all sorts of things that can happen.

但在职场中，我们掌握着主动权；而在家中，我们却完全受制于我们所爱的人——他们的生活如何影响我们，往往带来深远的冲击。

But we are in our power in the workplace and at home, we're really at the mercy of the people that we love in terms of what happens in their life and how that affects us so profoundly.

因此，我也想探讨这一点。

And so I just wanted to play with that as well.

但我一直很喜欢设计这样的角色，作为一位女性主义者和实验性的女性主义作家，我觉得女性的脑海中常常同时存在着多条思绪。

But I also always love to have a part, and this is me as a feminist and experimenting as a feminist writer that some, I feel like women have so many different tracks in their mind at once.

即使她们正在与某人交谈，内心却仍在评论这场对话，或者心想：他提到平权行动，是因为他想让我知道，我之所以能得到这份工作，可能是因为我是女性，而不是因为我最优秀。

That even while they're having a conversation with someone that in their head, they're commenting to themselves about that conversation Or they're thinking, Oh, he's talking about affirmative action because he wants me to know that I would, I probably got it because I'm a woman, not because I was the best person.

因此，我们不仅听到她的外在对话，也听到她的内心独白。

So we hear her in a monologue as well as her outer conversation.

对我来说，这就是女性生活的现实：她们对正在交谈的内容，实际上有着多种不同的内心反应。

And to me that is the reality for how women live their life, that they actually have so many different responses to what the conversation they're having is.

她们在心里默默微笑，或在内心翻白眼，想着：‘天啊，他们又要说一遍了。’

That they're in the back of their mind or they're actually smiling to themselves about something or they're rolling their eyes inward thinking, Oh wow, they're going to say that again.

或者不管是什么情况。

Or whatever it is.

我认为这就是人们在剧中找到幽默的原因，因为他们意识到自己也常常这样。

And I think that that's why people find the humor in the play because they recognize that they do that themselves.

而且，我想到了金吉·罗杰斯的故事，她和弗雷德·阿斯泰尔一样出色，只是她穿着高跟鞋倒着跳。

And also it's just, I guess that idea of Ginger Rogers was as good as Fred Astaire, she just did it backwards in high heels.

她在跳的时候，很可能心里想着：‘你意识到我正穿着高跟鞋倒着跳吗？’

And she probably said to herself as she was doing it, do you realize I'm doing this backward and in high heels?

而你心里会想：‘我才是主角。’

And you're like going, I am the star.

所以，某种程度上，那种在我们倒着穿高跟鞋跳舞、努力向前时内心的独白，正是我想通过在剧本中直接加入这些内心对话来呈现的。

So I guess in a way that with commentary that we have of our life while we're all dancing backwards in high heels trying to sort of get ahead is something I wanted to be actually activated in the play by actually putting the dialogue in the script.

所以这也是其中一部分。

So that's part of it.

苏西·米勒又一次做到了。

Well, Suzie Miller, have done it again.

这真是一段令人惊叹的表演，我笑过，也被深深吸引。

It's a really breathtaking piece I of laughed, I was gripped.

结尾时我哭了，那天是媒体场演出，我的睫毛都粘在一起了。

And at the end I cried and I was here on press night and my eyelashes were stuck on.

那真是个危险的情况。

And that was a it was a dangerous situation.

我当时想，天哪，我得赶紧调整一下，不然晚上的派对上我会有一根睫毛挂着。

I was like, oh my God, I've got to pull myself because otherwise I'll be at the party afterwards with like one eyelash hanging off.

我得让自己冷静下来。

I've got to pull myself together.

但我真的觉得，这绝对是《Prima Facie》最非凡的、相辅相成的作品。

But I really, really think this is the most extraordinary kind of yes and companion piece to Prima facie.

这是一部扩展的作品，一个扩展的宇宙，一个扩展的世界，因为你已经用《初审》证明了自己，现在你获得了更大的预算、更大的平台和更大的舞台，而你没有浪费这个机会。

It is an extended work, an extended universe, an extended world because you proved yourself with Prima facie and now you're being given this bigger budget and bigger platform, bigger stage and you have not wasted it.

你给我们留下了希望。

You leave us with hope.

太好了。

Oh good.

你给我们留下了希望。

You leave us with hope.

我认为，没有多少剧作家有勇气这样做。

And listen, not many playwrights I think are brave enough to do that.

我认为你正在以一种独特的方式使用这个平台——这不是一场说教，不是告诉你该想什么，而是一个两难困境，但你似乎在鼓励观众重新思考什么是可能的。

And I think you're using the platform in a way that this is not a lecture, this is not telling you what to think, it's a dilemma, but it feels like you're encouraging your audience to rethink what might be possible.

你吸引了一群来到国家剧院的观众，其中许多人很有影响力，他们是能够在自己的家庭和社会中有影响力的角色、能够改变现状的人。

And you've got an audience of people coming to The National who often many of them are influential and they are people who could change things, in their own homes and in their influential roles in society.

所以我认为你正在做一件非常了不起的事。

So I think you are doing something really magnificent.

我也很荣幸认识你，黛布。

I'm very proud to know you too, Deb.

作为澳大利亚人，我感到骄傲，就像我们的朋友凯西·莱克称我们为‘袋鼠帮’，在伦敦无处不在。

Proud to be a fellow Australian as our friend Kathy Leck calls us the Gumley for mafia here, pervading London.

她负责管理，对吧？

She runs it, doesn't she?

但她是我

But She's what I

我只是想问你，有没有什么你本来想说但还没来得及说的内容？

just wanted to ask you, is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say?

我觉得，这部剧能售罄真是太棒了，而且在开演前就已经卖光了，这其实带来了很大的压力。

Well, I think, I mean, which is wonderful for the show is that it's sold out and it was sold out before we opened, which was a lot of pressure actually.

但话说回来，既然已经开演并且反响不错，我只是想让大家知道，NT Live即将播出，9月4日将在英国各地的电影院进行现场直播。

But having said that, now that it's open and it's been received well, I just want people to know that NT Live is coming out and they're doing a live broadcast on the September 4 at cinemas all around The UK.

我想大概有600个影厅左右吧。

I think like 600 screens or something.

然后它基本上传遍了全球。

And then it goes out to the globe basically all around the world.

所以我特别喜欢NT通过NT Live实现的这种民主化方式。

So I feel like I love the democratization of the way that the NT does that with the NT live.

事实上，这意味着即使你无法亲临剧院，或者因为剧院票价明显高于电影院而负担不起，你依然能接触到那些你听说过的、渴望观看的演出。

Actually, it means that even if you can't see the theatre or you can't afford the tickets because obviously theatre is more expensive than the cinema that you can have access to something that you've heard about that you wish you could see.

他们的拍摄质量非常出色，真的非常值得一看。

And they do such a magnificent job of the filming that it's really worth.

你会感觉自己仿佛身临其境，真的就像坐在剧院里一样。

You feel like you're in the you actually feel like you're in the theater.

拍摄得实在太美了。

They're shot so beautifully.

真遗憾我们这一代之前没能拥有这样的方式，因为

It's such a shame we haven't had this for generations because

我们可以

we can

回去看看这些经典剧目。

go back and see these classic productions.

看到它拍得如此精美，让我感到难过。

It makes me sad when I see how beautifully it's done.

但每个人都应该去观看。

But everyone should go and see that.

日期是什么时候？

What's the date?

它将在英国于9月4日上映，之后在全球其他地区陆续上映，我想大约从9月20日开始。

Well it opens in The UK on the September 4 and then later on around the globe, I think around the twentieth of REPRESENTATIVE:] September onward.

这部剧作会在英国巡演吗？

And will this production tour around The UK?

UNIDENTIFIED 哦，我目前还不能谈论这个，希望可以吧。

UNIDENTIFIED Oh, I'm not allowed to talk about that yet, hopefully.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

保留这个。

Keep that.

和往常一样，她总是以某种悬念收尾。

As always, she likes to end with some kind of cliffhanger.

敬请期待。

Very much watch this space.

现在在后面，你可以购买剧本，我已经买了，你们绝对必须买。

Now up the back, you can buy the text, I have and which you absolutely must buy.

还有表面证据相关的资料。

There's also prima facie stuff.

有周边商品，有‘粉碎父权’的周边，还有我的书《有罪的女权主义者》和我的新书《六场我们害怕的对话》，后者深入探讨了男性空间等话题。

There's merch, there's fuck the patriarchy merch, all Also sorts going my book, The Guilty Feminist and my book, six, my new book, Six Conversations We're Scared to Have, which does go into the manosphere in some of these places.

所以苏西作为一位真正的姐妹，她说：‘我希望这部剧能在国家剧院上演’，因为它在某种程度上是这部剧的配套作品——至少它让这场对话开始了吗？

So Suzie being a genuine sister was like, I want that in the National Theatre because it is a companion piece in as much as it's, sort Has panicking the conversation started?

这场关于女性主义和男性空间以及其他许多话题的对话是互动性的。

It's interactive with this conversation around feminism and the manosphere as well as many other things.

我只能感谢你写出了这本书，也感谢你在周日下午抽出时间，为我们带来这场精彩的对话。

I can only say thank you for writing it and then thank you for coming out on a Sunday afternoon and treating us to this brilliant conversation.

大家好，苏西·米勒。

Suzie Miller, everybody.

谢谢大家。

Thank everybody

也谢谢你们，黛布和国家剧院。

and thank you, Deb and the NT.

你们

You

表现得简直太棒了。

have been absolutely wonderful.

我是黛博拉·弗朗西斯-怀特。

I've been Deborah Frances-White.

我们一直与苏西·米勒进行对话。

We have been in conversation with Suzie Miller.

非常感谢国家剧院以及在座的各位

Thank you so much to the National Theatre and to all of you

感谢书屋组织了这场活动。

for the coming bookshop organized it.

如果你想与任何人分享，可以在《有罪的女权主义者》播客中收听到这次对话。

And you'll be able to hear a podcast of it if you want to share it with anyone on The Guilty Feminist.

你们一直是极其出色的观众。

You've been an absolutely wonderful audience.

非常感谢你们。

Thank you so much.

下午好。

Good afternoon.

罗莎蒙德。

Rosamund.

罗莎蒙德的名字是什么？

What's Rosamond's name?

你是说罗莎蒙德·派克吧？

You mean Rosamond Pike

或者杰西卡，杰西卡，谢谢，抱歉。

or Jessica Jessica, Jessica, thank you, sorry.

我对名字总是记不住。

I've got a real block with names.

不过为了播客，我们再重来一遍吧，因为我不希望任何人——我的意思是，你们知道我忘了，但对外面的人而言，我必须显得很专业。

Let's take that again though for the podcast because I don't want anyone, I mean, you can know that I forgot that, but it's important that everyone outside of this room thinks I'm great.

你们花钱买了票，还在这么热的天里赶来，我真的很抱歉，但这意味着你们能享受到的内容会少一些。

You've paid and you've slept here on a hot day, and I'm so sorry, but that means you get less.

而且确实是这样。

And it's yeah.

我最喜欢的是，你不仅仅是给我们展示了。

What I loved about it is you didn't just show us.

《有罪的女权主义者》由Acast独家提供。

The Guilty Feminist is provided exclusively from Acast.

在您收听播客的任何平台都可以找到它。

Find it wherever you get your podcasts.