473. 前往基列之路：与德西蕾·伯奇和罗杰·格里芬教授谈法西斯主义——第二部分

欢迎回到《有罪的女权主义者》第二部分。

Welcome back to part two of The Guilty Feminist.

所以插上耳机，准备好享受乐趣吧。

So plug in and get ready for the fun.

你好，你好，你好，欢迎回来。

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back.

谢谢你们再次回来。

Thank you for coming back.

我总是觉得，如果你爱你的观众，就让他们走吧。

I always think if you love an audience, let them go.

如果他们回来了，

If they come back,

那他们就是你的了。

they're yours.

如果他们没回来，就把门锁上。

If they don't, lock the doors.

现在，我们的板子上还有更多问题，但我们想先听听你们的。

Now, we have got some more questions on our boards, but we thought we'd throw to you first.

谁想向罗杰提问？

Who would like to ask Roger a question?

我们这里有一位观众。

We've got somebody here.

我们能做些什么？

What can we do?

好的。

Okay.

非常好。

Very good.

太棒了。

Beautiful.

为了

To

帮忙。

help.

对不起。

Sorry.

嗯，

Well,

你的意思不是让事情变得更糟。

not you mean not to make things worse.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，我得说声对不起。

Well, I'm gonna give I'm sorry.

这个答案真的非常复杂。

This is such a sort of complicated answer.

我相信，任何感到有力量站出来反对去自由化势力、反对人文主义战争、反对人类战争及其所有细分领域——妇女、儿童、穷人以及所有类似群体的人。

I believe that anybody who feels empowered to stand up against the forces of deliberalization, the war against humanism, the war against humanity, with all its sub compartments, women and children and the poor and all that sort of stuff.

这取决于你人生和所处社会的阶段。

It depends where you are in life and in in society.

我的意思是，此刻我被称为公共知识分子。

I mean, I'm I'm at this moment, I'm being what's called a public intellectual.

我只是牛津布鲁克斯大学的一名普通学者，但我接受了这个角色，因为我热爱弥合学术、新闻、政治与所谓普通人之间巨大鸿沟的理念。

I mean, I'm just a blooming academic from from Oxford Brookes University, but I accepted this because I love the idea of bridging this massive gulf between academia, journalism, politics, and so called, sorry, ordinary people.

我的意思是，你们显然不是普通人，但此刻我们已经置身于那种环境之外。

I mean, you're not obviously not ordinary people, but in this moment, we're outside that sort of space.

现在，由于我的专业背景，我有机会来到这里，而在座的每个人，无论你们处于人生的哪个阶段，无论你们有工作还是没有，无论你们是否有孩子，只要你们有孩子，那都是一个极其重要的角色。

Now, if I I've got a potential because of my specialism to come here, and you all here, everybody here has got you're at some point in your life and your your your and and you've got a job or you haven't or whatever you got if you've got children, that's an incredible, incredibly important role.

如果你是某个有孩子的人的朋友，或者你是他们的照顾者，无论你是什么身份，如果你看到我们正在与这些力量抗争，这并不是一种整体性的法西斯主义。

And if you're a friend of somebody with children or or or your your carer or whatever you are, if you see we're engaged in a battle against these, this isn't fascism as a block thing.

我的意思是，当坦克开进来、人们穿着制服时，这很容易识别，但我们面对的是一些非常阴险的力量，它们正在瓦解人类这一整体概念，将其分裂为‘我们这种人’和‘他们那种人’。

I mean, it's easy when tanks roll in and people are in uniform, but we're up against very insidious forces, which are really they're taking the idea of humankind, and they're breaking it up into our kind and that kind.

这里有一个非常有趣的语言现象：当我们说‘我对你很友善’时，意思是‘我把你看作和我同类的人’，而‘不友善’则相反。

And there's very interesting verbal thing here that when we say I am kind to you, it means I am treating you as one of my kind and unkind.

现在，如果你想想法语中‘慷慨’这个词，它源自法语中的‘你们这一类’，gen。

Now if you think of the French of the word generous, it comes from the French of your kind, gen.

而人类将人性划分为‘我们’和‘他们’的能力，正是所谓激进右翼民粹主义的核心。

And it and the ability of human beings to divide humanity into our us and them is at the heart of what's called radical right wing populism.

这就是特朗普在技术层面上的定位，尽管‘老板’这个说法并不算一个严谨的术语。

That is what Trump is technically, apart from being a boss, which is not a very technical term.

而且，无论如何，这个词是对非婚生子女的侮辱。

And anyway, it's an insult for people born out of wedlock.

所以我认为，简短的回答是：无论你是什么人，无论你拥有怎样的天赋，无论你的家庭状况如何，你都可以有所作为。

So I think that there's a short answer is that whatever you are, whoever you are, whatever your gifts are, whatever your family situation is, etcetera, you can do.

为什么？

Why?

首先，认清这种威胁和力量。

A, recognize the threat, the force.

我的意思是，抱歉，这是一个很长的答案，但它很重要。

I mean, can I I'm sorry, it's a long answer, but it's an important answer?

普里莫·莱维。

Primo Levi.

普里莫·莱维是一位出色的化学系学生，他在参与抵抗纳粹法西斯的地下活动时于瓦尔道奥斯塔被捕。

Primo Levi was a a brilliant chemistry student picked up in Waldau Ostab when he was working for the resistance against then what's called Nazi fascism.

他被送到了奥斯维辛，后来幸存下来，因为在一次点名时，纳粹需要一名工业化学家，当时大家在冰天雪地中站立着被清点人数。

Sent to ended up in Auschwitz, survived Auschwitz because at a certain point when they were doing the appell, where you stood in the freezing cold and were counted, we need, anybody here an industrial chemist.

是的？

Yeah?

他之所以幸存，是因为他是一名工业化学家，整个冬天都在实验室里工作。

He survived because he was an industrial chemist, and he spent that winter in a laboratory.

他的所有朋友都死了，等等等等。

All his friends died, etcetera, etcetera.

后来他因为生病而躲过了死亡行军，俄罗斯军队在医院里找到了他，所以他没有死。

And he then survived because he got ill just before the death march, and the Russians found him in the hospital, and he didn't die.

失去了所有朋友，诸如此类。

Lost all his friends, blah blah blah.

于是他写了这本书《如果这是一个人》，讲述在奥斯维辛的生存经历，以及纳粹如何摧毁人性——在摧毁人们的肉体之前，他们先摧毁了他们的灵魂与人性。

And so he wrote this book, If This Is a Man, about survival in Auschwitz and the death of humanity and the attempt to destroy humanity by the Nazis because before they destroyed their bodies, they destroyed their souls and their humanity.

但确实有人对此进行了抵抗。

But there were people who resisted that.

在《这是一个人》的学校版中，他写了一篇后记，我认为这极其重要。

And in a school edition of This Is A Man, he wrote an afterword where I think this is really important.

在世界的每一个角落，只要你开始否认人类的基本自由和平等，你就踏上了通往集中营体系的道路，这是一条难以停下的路，一条通往基列之路。

In every part of the world, wherever you begin by denying the fundamental liberties of of mankind, of humankind, and equality among people, all people, you move towards the concentration camp system, and it is a road on which it is difficult to halt, Road to Gilead.

一种新的法西斯主义，带着其不容异己、压迫与奴役的轨迹，可能从国外悄然潜入，伪装成其他名称；也可能从内部以暴力爆发，摧毁一切防御。

A new fascism, with its trail of intolerance, of abuse, and of servitude, can be born outside the country and be imported into it, walking on tiptoe and calling itself by other names, or it can loose itself from within with such violence that it routes all defenses.

到了那时，明智的劝告已无济于事，人们必须找到抵抗的力量。

At that point, wise counsel no longer serves, and one must find the strength to resist.

现在，我认为特朗普及其同伙所发生的情况，并非法西斯主义悄然潜入，而是我们自由民主制度的去自由化、去人性化正在悄然渗透，并通过法拉奇这样的人，甚至通过左翼人士谈论‘在自己的国家成为陌生人’这一说法，持续渗透进我们的社会。

Now, I would say what's happened with Trump and company is that it's not fascism that's tiptoed in, but the deliberalization, the dehumanization of our liberal democracies has tiptoed and it's continuing to tiptoe into our countries through people like Farage, but also through the even the left talking about being a stranger in your own country.

这种去人性化的力量正在悄然潜入，你将在不同的方式、不同的偏见和不同的时刻中遭遇它。

This force of dehumanization is tiptoeing in and we you will encounter it in different ways, in different prejudices, in different moments.

在这一点上，你必须表明立场。

And in that point, you have to take a stand.

这并不意味着炸毁事物或武力对抗，而是意味着当你在个人生活中目睹欺凌或去人性化行为时，要进行某些对抗；也包括你选择从事的工作，以及你如何改变工作场所的文化，如何在街头关注他人并产生影响。

And that does not mean blowing things up or fighting, but it means certain confrontations when you witness bullying or or or dehumanization in your own private life, but also the type of jobs you take and that and the way you can change the ethos in the place of work and the way you can actually notice people in the streets and make differences.

我们的力量是惊人的。

Our power is fantastic.

通过众多杰出人士的努力，民主已经得到了自由化。

Democracy, through the work of so many amazing people, has been liberalized.

我们正目睹一种像糖浆、像淤泥般蔓延的现象。

We are witnessing the like a treacle, like a sludge spreading.

而我们实际上可以将它推回去。

And we can actually push it back.

美国正在出现一种反弹。

There's a pushback in America.

我衷心希望英国也能出现这种反弹。

I hope to God there's a pushback in Britain.

我的意思是，我们对这种混乱到底要走向何方？

I mean, where the hell are we going with this sort of mess?

所以这就是我的简短回答。

So that's my short answer.

这是一个学术性的简短回答。

Takes it's an academic short answer.

要审视你个人的处境，意识到你正在成长。

It's take stock of your individual situation, realize you're growing.

我78岁了，你年轻得多。

I'm 78, you're much younger.

我不想对此变得多愁善感，但我的意思是，无论你拥有什么，或缺少什么，你都有能力采取行动。

And I don't want to get sentimental about it, but I mean, whatever you've got or whatever you haven't got, you are in a position to act.

当然，如果你是政治家或喜剧演员，看看这两类人正在做什么。

And of course, if you are a politician or if you're a comedian, look what these two are doing.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

我的意思是，能抓住某样东西真是太棒了。

I mean, it's just wonderful to take something.

顺便说一下，我曾去过一场由亚历克西斯·塞利参加的原始喜剧杯比赛。

Incidentally, I went to one of the original Comedy Cups with Alexis Seyli.

亚历克西斯·塞利，是的。

Alexis Seyli, yeah.

他当时的政治讽刺非常出色。

And he was fantastically political.

我的意思是，有一段时间，他甚至化身成了贝托尔特·布莱希特，还有类似的各种东西。

I mean, he at one point, he became Bertolt Brecht and all this sort stuff.

我的意思是，一开始它是激进的。

I mean, it started off radical.

而资本主义社会所做的——我不是马克思主义者，但有时候他们确实说得对——就是把它商业化。

And of what capitalist society does, and I'm not a Marxist, but sometimes they're bloody right, is it commercializes.

它变得平淡无奇。

It anodynes.

它让所有原本具有解放意义的事物，突然间有人看到了其中的市场价值，于是这些东西就变了，喜剧也就变成了纯粹的商业产物。

It makes everything everything that is a liberating thing, suddenly somebody sees a market value in it, and it goes, and then comedy just becomes a commercial thing.

这两个人回归了英国另类喜剧的原始精神。

These two are back to the original spirit of British alternative comedy.

我非常喜欢，能在那里真是太荣幸了。

I loved it, and it was so it's such a privilege to be there.

我还要说一下，我们和《通往基列之路》一起举办了一场大型开放空间日，大家提出了许多草根创意。

Can I just say as well that we did a big Open Space Day with Road to Gilead with people coming up with grassroots ideas?

我们还打算发起一个叫‘3.5%俱乐部’的活动。

And we also want to start something called the three point five percent Club.

哈佛有一位政治学家叫埃里卡·陈诺思，他们通过研究发现，如果人口中有3.5%的人持续抗议，政府就很难撑得住。

There's a political scientist at Harvard called Erica Chenoweth, and they have, through study, discovered that if 3.5% of the population consistently protest, it's very difficult for an administration to hold out.

这是完全可以实现的。

And that's doable.

在这个国家，这仅仅相当于两千五百万人。

That's only two and a half million people in this country.

所以我们想启动这个项目，因为现在我注意到人们在说：我们该做什么？

So we want to start that because what I notice now is people are saying, what are we

我们该怎么做？

going to do?

我们如何才能推动改变？

How are we going to move the needle?

这并不是去和那些已经彻底倒向极右的人争论。

And and it is not arguing with people who are already lost to the far right.

而是要彻底激活那些政治冷漠的中间群体。

It is it is absolutely activating the apolitical middle.

这个国家有一半的人不投票，因为他们觉得民主对他们来说毫无意义。

Half the people of this country do not vote because they think there is nothing in democracy for them.

他们感到被剥夺了权利，从未参与过政治，或者曾经参与过但最终放弃了。

They are disenfranchised, they've never engaged, or they did engage, and they gave up.

这些人中有很多善良的人，他们每天只是接送孩子、努力负担杂货开销，回到家后却只能看那些叛徒的表演。

Those are the people, there are a lot of good people who are just doing the school run, trying to afford the groceries, and getting home and watching the traitors.

这些人是可以被政治动员的，他们能够明白生活可以变得更好。

And those people can be politicised and they can understand that life can be better.

我们需要触达这些人，必须有真正合适的项目和 outreach 来接触他们。

And those are the people we need to reach and we need absolute proper projects and outreach to reach them.

这些项目必须具有吸引力、有趣、幽默，充满磁性。

And they need to be attractive, fun, funny, just magnetic.

不能只是对人大喊大叫，因为尽管我们很想通过喊叫让人顺从，但这是行不通的。

Can't just be shouting at people Because as much as we would like to shout people into a place of compliance, we can't.

那到底是什么？

Because what is that?

对人大喊大叫迫使他们顺从，这算什么？

What's shouting people into a place of compliance?

这正是我们所反对的一切——专制。

Everything we stand against, it's autocracy.

这简直是法西斯主义。

It's bloody fascist.

没错。

Exactly.

还有其他问题吗？

Any other questions?

我能不能说，你此刻实际上是一个社群的源泉，但你的社群并非由穿着制服或寻求雇佣来定义？

I can I just say that you, actually, in this moment, are a source of community, but your community defined not by wearing uniforms nor going seek hire?

你是由你自己定义的。

You're you're defined by by by You

还没看到终点呢。

haven't seen the end of

这场演出。

the show.

但你

But you

我们把它变成了一段音乐剧。

We've turned it into a musical number.

这会很棒。

It's gonna be great.

我忘了马船精英的台词了，但事情就是这样。

I I've forgotten the words of the horse vessel elite, but there we are.

但你可以从这样的情境中汲取能量，将其注入那些孤独的时刻或与人的随意相遇中，不是通过说教，而是通过引导对话。

But you take an energy from a situation like that, and you inject it into those moments of of loneliness or just casual encounters with people, and not by lecturing and lecturing, but just by steering conversations.

我人生中最大的遗憾之一，就是花了这么多年，作为一个愚蠢的年轻男性，与有毒的男性气质同流合污。

One of the greatest regrets of my life, I spent so many years as an idiot young male colluding with toxic masculinity.

那时候这个词还不存在。

The term didn't exist.

我当时到处散发着毒性。

I was walking around toxic.

我根本不知道自己有毒。

I didn't know I was toxic.

这就像是有体臭却自己不知道一样，你知道的。

It was like having BO and not knowing, you know.

我有毒。

I'm toxic.

小心点，你知道的。

Beware, you know.

但我确实有。

But I do.

我当时缺少一些概念。

I would, I, there missing concepts.

那时候没有这样的人，老实说，也没有女性。

There weren't people, there weren't women honestly.

天啊，如果几年前遇到你们俩，我不知道我会做出什么来。

God, I don't know what I'd done if I'd met you two, well, those years ago.

我们肯定会把你撕碎，罗杰·格里芬。

We would've eaten you alive, Roger Griffin.

我们是

We are And

你会感谢我们的。

you would've thanked us.

你会喜欢的。

You would've loved it.

但你现在身处更糟糕的境地，你知道吗？我小时候根本不知道气候变化，也不了解那些正在发生的可怕事情，比如我的国家在澳大利亚进行的核试验，因为原住民根本不存在，诸如此类的废话。

But you are in the most much worse, well you know now, I grew up not knowing about climate change and all sorts of terrible things that I didn't know were going on, and all the atom tests my country was doing in Australia, because the Aborigines didn't exist, blah blah blah blah blah.

我们现在知道了。

We know now.

我们不能让这些知识让我们感到无能为力或被剥夺了力量。

We mustn't let it make us feel impotent and disempowered.

我们必须利用像这样的时刻所获得的认知——这或许也正是你在这里的原因。

We must use that knowledge from moments like this, which is probably why you're here anyway.

这真的是重生。

This is really palingenesis.

这是你更好自我的重生，你可以带着它走出去，并确信自己确实拥有一个角色。

This is rebirth of your better self, which you can take out there and and know that you really do have a role.

因为我们虽然搞砸了，但确实正在摧毁生物圈。

Because though we've fucked the sorry, we've really we've done the we're in the process of destroying the biosphere.

全球右翼民粹主义最糟糕的一点在于。

We're in the one of the worst things about the right wing populist right all over the world.

有一种极其扭曲的心态，否认气候变化的存在。

There's this absolute perverse mentality that denies climate change.

人类作为一个物种，该如何对这样一个事实做出集体性的共同回应——我们不仅在摧毁自己的栖息地，还在摧毁所有生命的栖息地？

How is humanity gonna get a collective communal response as a species to the fact that we're not just destroying our own habitat, but the habitat for all life?

我的意思是，我们其实正参与一场我不久前甚至都不知道存在的斗争。

I mean, so so we are really engaged in a battle I didn't even know existed some time ago.

而真正威胁我们的并不是法西斯主义，这反而给了我们力量，因为我们生活在一个民主社会中。

And the fact that it's not the fascism that's a threat empowers us because we are living in a democracy.

法西斯主义在某个地方存在着。

Fascism is out there somewhere.

法拉奇就在这里，你知道的。

Farage is here, you know.

所以我认为，我们必须这么做，虽然这非常不英国，但你得开始与人交流、与人对话，而不仅仅是聊该死的天气。

And so I think that we we have to that's very un British is, but you have to start engaging with people and talking to people, not just talking about the bloody weather.

或者，如果你确实要聊天气，就把话题和气候变化联系起来。

Or if you do talk about the weather, link it to climate change.

其他问题吗？

Other questions?

还有人有问题吗？

Anyone else got a question?

我知道你没时间整晚陪我们，但能不能简单说说，为什么反自由化和去人性化现在如此流行？

I know you haven't got all night, but can you say just a bit about why illiberalization and dehumanization has become so popular just at the moment?

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

嗯，我想说的是，现在就是这样了。

Well, I'd like to this is it now.

我不是，也许我算是对法西斯主义有点了解。

I'm not I may be a sort of expert on fascism.

这完全是即兴发挥。

This is really off the cuff.

我的意思是，我并不是这方面的专家，但我想要提出一个与1930年代发生的事情的关联。

I mean, I'm not an expert on this, but I would like to suggest a link to what happened in the 1930s.

为什么法西斯主义会在1930年代兴起？

Why did fascism emerge in 1930s?

因为发生了一场可怕的第一次世界大战，数百万人死亡，社会试图通过纪念碑等方式哀悼，但这一切都显得空洞无比。

Because there'd been a terrible first world war, millions dead, society tried to grieve with monuments and everything, but it was all very hollow.

接着经济崩溃，士兵们复员返乡。

Then economies collapsed, there were demobilized soldiers.

第一次世界大战彻底摧毁了人类属于进步文明的整个神话。

The whole myth of belonging to a progressive civilization was wiped out by the First World War.

在那种彻底悲观的氛围中，你看到斯潘格勒写下了《西方的没落》，文明的太阳正在落下。

You get Spangler writing The Decline of the The sun of civilization is setting in that mood of total pessimism.

如果你的基因符合要求，你就要么成为共产主义者，试图彻底铲除作为人民敌人的资本主义，要么被民族复兴、民族再生的理念所吸引。

You either became, if you were if your DNA was right, you became a communist and tried to actually get rid of capitalism as the enemy of the people, or you were seduced by ideas of national renewal, national regeneration.

莫斯利试图创建一个新政党，但没成功，于是他转向了法西斯主义。

Mosley tried to create a new party, didn't work, so he went fascist.

法西斯主义吸引了那些无法承受——正如T.S.艾略特所说，人类无法承受太多现实的人。

Fascism appealed to people who could not I mean, TS Eliot says human beings cannot bear too much reality.

数百万人对这个世界有多糟糕、有多混乱，容忍度是有限的。

Millions of people have a a limited tolerance of just how awful the world is and how chaotic the world is.

于是，这时候法国人所说的‘伟大的简化者’就出现了。

And then that's when what what the French call the great simplifiers come in with us.

一切问题都被归咎于犹太人。

Everything is down to the Jews.

你所说的一切都是犹太人的，连黑人音乐也是犹太人的，犹太音乐也是黑人的。

Everything you say is Jewish, and even Negro music is Jewish, and Jewish music is Negro.

他们谈论着沥青文化，沥青文化。

And they talked about the asphalt culture, the asphalt culture.

一切都被沥青覆盖了，而我们需要回归过去。

Everything's being macadamized over, and what we need is to go back.

因此才有了关于德国的云、德国的土壤、德国人回归自然之类的种种说法。

That's hence all the stuff about German clouds and German soil and German everybody sort of back to nature and all that.

于是这突然成了一种解决方案。

So this suddenly was like a solution.

希特勒告诉人们问题出在哪里。

Hitler told people what was wrong now.

现在发生了什么？

What's happening now?

但这与两次世界大战之间的时期不同。

Well, it's not like the interwar period.

这是文明最奇怪的崩溃。

It's the most weird collapse of civilization.

因为如果你觉得现在的经济问题已经很糟糕了，那回头看看1929年的德国，那简直是难以置信的惨烈。

Because if you think the economic problems are bad now if you go back to Germany in 1929, I mean, was just unbelievably horrific.

我的意思是，现在对数百万人来说很糟糕，但还没达到同样的程度。

I mean, it's terrible now for millions of people, but not at the same level.

而且现在有社交媒体，人们都有手机，诸如此类的东西。

And there is, you know, social media and people have phones and all that sort of stuff.

但尽管如此，社会正经历一场巨大的存在危机，这既是精神和心理上的，也是非常具体的。

So but nevertheless, there's a massive existential crisis going on in society, which is both spiritual and psychological, but it's also highly concrete.

我们正在谈论战争。

We've got we've got talk of war.

欧洲正在发生战争。

We've got we've got a war in Europe.

加沙地区也在发生战争。

We've got Gaza going on.

苏丹也在发生战争。

We've got Sudan going on.

人们感到无能为力。

People feel helpless.

人们感到被这些问题淹没。

People feel drowned in all these issues.

然后有人跳出来说，这一切都是因为布鲁塞尔夺走了我们的主权。

And then we've got somebody coming along saying, we it's all because Brussels has taken our sovereignty.

你得相当……才会这么想

Now you have to be pretty to think that

罗杰，不会。

Roger, no.

你能为播客重新表述一下吗？

Can you rephrase that for the podcast?

因为这个我没法播出。

Because I cannot air that.

得是

Have to be

哦，不，这种说法带有歧视性。

Oh, no, that is ableist.

是的。

Yes.

抱歉。

Sorry.

不，不，不。

No, no, no.

剪掉这段。

Cut that.

我知道你属于不同的一代，但你

I know you're different generation, but You

必须是一个极其肤浅的思考者，才会把英国的衰落归咎于布鲁塞尔或大规模移民，尤其是如果 anyone 曾经亲身接触过，你几乎遇不到一个真正的英国本土人正在和你打交道。

have to be an unsophisticated thinker to attribute the collapse of Britain to to Brussels or mass migration, especially if anybody's been ill, how you hardly meet an ethnic British person actually dealing with you.

我的意思是，我非常感激自己不再生活在1948年我出生时的那个世界。

I mean, I'm so grateful to the fact I no longer live in the type of world I was born into in 1948.

但事实上，对于数百万人来说，我敢说，在每一个民主国家中，大约三分之一的人口，而在每一个自由民主国家中，这个比例甚至达到三分之一到一半，都被一个不属于既有政党体系、却提供看似能纠正世界问题的绝佳主张的政党或运动所吸引。

But the fact is that for millions of people, I'd say probably about a third of the population in every single democracy, between a third and a half in every single liberal democracy in the world, are attracted by a party or movement which is not part of the established party system and is offering what seems to be like really good ideas to put the world right.

他们并不邪恶，不是法西斯，也不是疯子或心理变态。

They're not nasty, they're not fascists, they're not psychos, they're not psychopaths.

有些领袖确实是。

Some of the leaders are.

但确实如此。

But the Yeah.

所以我认为，如果你想彻底终结一场酒吧里的对话，有一个词叫‘失范’。

And so I think it's down to it's there's a word, if you want to really destroy a pub conversation, it's called anomie.

法国社会学家埃米尔·涂尔干试图弄清楚，十九世纪末社会出了什么问题，当时人们整天谈论堕落，那甚至是在第一次世界大战之前。

A French Emile Durkheim, French sociologist, tried to work out what was going wrong with late nineteenth century society when people were going on about decadence, decadence, was even before the First World War.

他创造了这个词。

And he created this word.

Nomos 指的是世界中的法律、准则或秩序。

Nomos is the idea of a law or principle or order in the world.

意思是缺乏这种秩序。

Means being without that.

他写了一本关于自杀的书，将抑郁、精神疾病和绝望联系起来，这些现象在十九世纪末的城市化社会中日益普遍，当时是1890年代后期，是的，他把这一切归因于失范——人们不再有宗教信仰，不再有信念，不再有目标，也无法理解自己在这个世界上的意义。

He he wrote a book on suicide linking depression, mental mental illness, and despair, which was becoming rife in urbanized societies in the late nineteenth century, long ago, late 1890s, yeah, to anomie, the fact that people no longer had a religion, they no longer had faith, they no longer had a purpose, they couldn't understand what they were doing in the world.

因此，我相信自由主义的去自由化社会，我们必须找一个更好的词来形容它，因为这些人并不是法西斯。

So I believe that liberal deliberalization society, what what is technically we must get a better word for it because they're not fascist.

激进的右翼民粹主义者在全球各地的自由民主国家中正变得越来越主流，这是因为世界现状本身，不是每个人都能容忍对现状的无知，以及无法直面我们所处的可怕境地。

Radical right wing populists are are becoming more and more established all over the world in liberal democracies because of the sheer state of the world and that not everybody has the same tolerance of not knowing what's going on and and and not facing the the horrible situation we're in.

这就是右翼民粹主义与气候否认之间的联系。

And that's the link between right wing populism and climate denial.

这太可怕了，你只能选择把它抛在脑后。

It's so terrifying, you just put it away.

这就像是把地球当成安德鲁王子一样回避问题，你知道吗？

It's like be it's like being Prince Andrew about the planet, you know?

这是否也因为亿万富翁们不断攫取财富，而普通人却越来越穷，而这些同样的亿万富翁还拥有报纸，声称这是有色人种的问题。

Is it also just because billionaires are well, haunting and haunting and haunting and regular people have less and less and less, and then those same billionaires own a newspaper which goes, I think it's the brown people's problem.

我不

And I don't

我认为，这些严酷的经济条件是由几个彻头彻尾的窃贼制造出来的，他们正在肆意掠夺。

think That's the thing of like these harsh economic conditions are being created by a couple of absolute thieves who are just lursing.

移民抢走了我们所有的工作和房子。

Migrants taking all our jobs and houses.

他们把矛头对准了移民。

They're pointing at migrants.

他们把矛头对准移民，但实际上却在不断剥削我们，剥削我们，再剥削我们。

They're pointing at migrants, but they are in fact fleecing us and fleecing us and fleecing us.

过去，当我搬到卡姆登时，那些商店、酒吧和餐馆大多由当地人拥有。

And it used to be, you know, when I moved to Camden, most of those shops and bars and restaurants were owned by local people.

他们做着自己的生意，足以支付房贷并照顾孩子。

And they did the thing and that that was enough for them to pay their mortgage and look after their kids.

现在，这些店铺全都被亿万富翁收购了。

Now they're all owned by billionaires.

他们用一些该死的大型企业取代了我们大街上的一切。

They have replaced everything on our high street by some fucking conglomerate.

所有这些钱都往上去了。

All that money goes up.

所以现在，人们不再觉得，只要我再努力一点，就能多得到一点。

And so now instead of people going, if I work a bit harder, I can have a bit more.

现在你即使努力工作，做副业，甚至做第二个副业，还是买不起房子。

Now you can work hard, you can have a side hustle, can have a second side hustle, and you still can't get a mortgage.

在

In

我晚年时，对自由民主与资本主义的兼容性变得非常怀疑。

my late old age, I've become very skeptical about the compatibility between liberal democracy and capitalism.

但对我来说，解决方案并不是成为共产主义者，部分是因为现实情况。

But the solution for me is not to be a communist partly because of the actual reality.

这在共产主义社会里被称为实际存在的社会主义。

It's called actually existing socialism in communist societies.

但我花了不少时间在斯堪的纳维亚。

But I've spent quite a bit of time in Scandinavia.

在那里，人们对财富和权力的分配以及长远思考有着广泛的共识。

And there, there's a massive public consensus for distribution of wealth and power and long term thinking.

他们并不用自由民主的框架来思考这个问题。

And they don't think of it in terms of liberal democracy.

他们称之为社会民主。

They call it social democracy.

可惜我们曾经有一个自由民主党，而在英国，我们有这么多不同的术语。

And it's so sad that we had a Liberal Democratic Party, and we've got all these various terms in England.

但我认为，唯一的解决方案不是共产主义的极权主义绿色社会，但也绝不是极右翼的路线，而是将重心从强调权利的自由民主，转向社会民主——在那里，我们积极重新分配财富与权力，并致力于拯救地球。

But I think that the only solution is not a communist totalitarian green society, but certainly nothing to do with the far right, but it is to move the dial or move the spectrum away from liberal democracy, which is all about rights, towards social democracy, where you have proactive redistribution of wealth and power and a commitment to the salvation of the planet.

但你是在运用自由。

But you using using freedom.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

你觉得这种时刻可能出现在纳粹德国或法西斯社会中吗？

Do you think this moment could exist in the Third Reich or in the fascist society?

即使在现在的美国，也有这样的时刻。

Even in America now, there are moments like this.

有着最惊人的文学作品。

There's the most amazing literature.

有很棒的歌曲和一切。

There's fantastic songs and everything.

所以我们

So we

现在还有时间采取行动，趁它还没变得如此专制且令人接受。

have the time to act now before it becomes so authoritarian and palatable,

我不这么认为。

I don't Yeah.

我们能看到火车正沿着轨道驶来，你知道吗？

We see the train coming down the tracks, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

有一列慢车正在驶来。

There's a slow train coming.

你有问题吗？

Did you have a question?

我们现在必须尝试了。

We're gonna have to try now.

我们必须赶紧离开，所以需要更快地回答这些问题。

We gotta get out, so we need to answer these questions more quickly.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

不，这不是你的错。

No, it's not your fault.

我也会这样。

I do it too.

我也会这样。

I do it too.

我在进行男性主导的说教。

I'm mansplaining.

不，你不是在男性主导的说教，你只是在解释。

No, you're not mansplaining, you're explaining.

男性主导的说教是指，你站在公交站谈论法西斯主义，一个对此一无所知的男人凑过来问：‘你什么意思？’

Mansplaining is when you're standing at a bus stop talking about fascism, and a man who doesn't know anything about it leans in and goes, what misunderstood.

我们邀请一位专家来，他从牛津坐火车过来，这才是解释。

We invite an expert to come in and he takes the train from Oxford, that's explaining.

好吧，我不会得到

Well, I won't get

回来的路上。

it on the way back.

目前，全球各地的生殖权利正受到攻击。

At the moment, reproductive rights are under attack all over the world.

法律正在被撤销，诊所被迫关闭，选择的权利正被当作可有可无的东西。

Laws are being rolled back, clinics are being forced to close, and the right to choose is being treated like it's optional.

这就是我想向你们介绍MSI生殖选择组织的原因。

That's why I want to tell you about MSI Reproductive Choices.

MSI是一家全球领先的生殖健康慈善组织，在36个国家开展工作，提供并倡导避孕和堕胎服务，更重要的是，尽可能维持这些服务的运转。

MSI is a world leading reproductive health care charity working across 36 countries to provide and advocate for contraception and abortion, and crucially, to keep services open wherever they can.

面对对生殖权利的攻击，MSI坚守阵地。

In the face of attacks on reproductive rights, MSI is holding the line.

他们为那些 otherwise 被剥夺了护理、选择权和掌控自己未来权利的女性和女孩提供支持。

They're there for women and girls who would otherwise be denied care, choice and control over their own futures.

这并不是抽象的概念。

This isn't abstract.

当获取途径受到限制时，人们会被迫陷入危险境地，后果是毁灭性的。

When access is restricted, people are pushed into dangerous situations, and the consequences are devastating.

MSI呼吁全世界选择选择权，而你可以成为这一行动的一部分。

MSI is calling on the world to choose choice, and you can be part of that.

如果你有能力，请通过向MSI生殖选择组织捐款来支持生殖自由。

If you're able to, please support Reproductive Freedom with a donation to MSI Reproductive Choices.

直接访问 m s I choices dot org。

Just go to m s I choices dot org.

那就是 msichoices.org，感谢您帮助坚守这一底线。

That's msichoices.org, and thank you for helping hold the line.

像我一样，通过访问 msichoices.org 加入他们的社会影响力行动。

Join their movement for social impact like I have at msichoices.org.

我觉得你已经回答了我大部分问题，但再进一步谈谈欧洲的情况。

I I think you already answered majority of my question, but, just more, focus on Europe.

比如，欧洲是否正面临法西斯主义的复兴？

Like, is is is Europe facing a revival of fascism?

或者从你的角度看，你认为这更像是一种由不安全感驱动的民主转型？

Or from your perspective, do you think is more like, are we witnessing a trans a democratic transformation driven by insecurity?

这对女性和少数群体意味着什么？

And what does this mean for women and minorities?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我无法回答所有这些问题，因为那太长了。

Well, I can't answer all that because that's far too long.

但我想说的是，因为我已经用完了在氧气中的所有时间。

But what I would say because I've used all the time in oxygen.

但我想说的是，我所知道的每个国家，我妻子是意大利人，我经常去那里等等，都存在着自由民主派与非自由民主派之间的较量。

But the but but what I would say is that every country I know, my wife's Italian, spend a lot of time there, etcetera, there's a there's a battlefront between liberal democrats and illiberal democrats.

斯洛伐克正处于边缘。

Slovakia's on the edge.

匈牙利下次可能就会彻底摆脱他们。

Hungary might they might get rid of all of them next time.

波兰非常有趣。

Poland is fascinating.

它在不同立场之间摇摆，简直不可思议。

It moves between I mean, almost it's extraordinary.

我的意思是，就连荷兰，所有你原本以为稳定的国家，其实都不是。

I mean, even Holland, there's every country, all these countries that you assume are, they're all no.

他们都有自己的版本来解释这里正在发生的事。

They've all got this their version of what's going on here.

我不认为存在危险的法西斯主义，但我确实在等待一次真正的强烈反弹。

I don't think there's dangerous fascism, but I do think I'm waiting for a real serious pushback.

我的意思是，如果欧洲所有人都能意识到，这就是我们的法西斯主义。

I think if I mean, if only everybody in Europe could see that this is this is our fascism.

我的意思是，20年代和30年代的反法西斯主义者们都能看清正在发生的事。

I mean, the anti fascists in the 20s and 30s could see what was happening.

我的意思是，在希特勒上台之前，就已经有大量极具远见的著作在探讨法西斯主义的威胁。

I mean, there's most incredibly visionary books being written about the threat of fascism before Hitler and came along.

但我们没有察觉到，因为这实际上有点像某种DNA。

But we're not picking up because it's actually it's a bit like one of these sort of DNA.

我们几乎已经把民主融入了自身的DNA之中。

We almost it's in democracy is so much in our DNA.

所以我们无法把它识别为一种威胁。

We don't recognize it as a threat.

这就像精神病连环杀手和普通掠夺者之间的区别。

It's like the difference between a psychopathic serial killer and an average predatory bloke.

那个掠夺者看起来不像会毁掉你的生活，但他确实会。

The predatory bloke doesn't look like he's going to ruin your life because he's like a He will.

每次都是。

Every time.

他他妈的

He bloody

会的。

will.

每次，每次。

Every time, time.

所以别再担心法西斯主义了。

So let's stop being worried about fascism.

我的意思是，这确实很可怕，但它是边缘性的。

I mean, it's a horrible thing, but it's very peripheral.

但我们应该认真关注自由民主与反自由、明确反民主力量之间的较量。

But let's be seriously worried about the battlefront between liberal democracy and anti liberal, and it's actively anti.

看看特朗普对图书馆、大学、言论自由以及LGBTQ+群体做了什么。

Look what Trump is doing to libraries, to to universities, to freedom of speech, to LGBTQ plus people.

LGBTQ，我的意思是，这是一场战争。

LGBTQ I mean, fighting a war.

而自由民主的制度——法院、法律的最高层级——都知道自己该占据什么位置。

And with the institutions of liberal democracy, the law courts, the highest points of the law, they know the positions to occupy.

请忘掉时尚吧，但一定要关注民主的质量。

Please forget fashion, but do focus on the quality of democracy.

我能问你个问题吗？因为我们得结束了。

Can I ask you very quickly because we've got to finish?

你说过你想谈谈戴立克。

You said you wanted to talk about Daleks.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我想给你一个

I I wanted to give you a

一个关于为什么法西斯主义者如此厌女的隐喻，这源于我早期看《神秘博士》和戴立克的经历。

metaphor about why fascists are so misogynist, and this comes down to my early experience of Doctor Who and Daleks.

戴立克就像一个带著阳具式发射器的垃圾桶，但里面只是一个 blob，一个模糊、可怕的黏糊糊的东西，必须依赖垃圾桶才能移动。

The Dalek is a dustbin with a phallic projectile, but inside it's just a blob, an amorphous, horrible blobby thing, which needs a dustbin to move around.

对我来说，这正是极端男性沙文主义的隐喻。

Now that for me is a metaphor for totally extreme male chauvinist.

为什么？

Why?

因为这一点在一本名为《男性幻想》的精彩著作中得到了阐明，这本书根本不是关于性别的。

Because and this is illuminated by a wonderful book called Male Fantasies, which is not not about sex at all.

它基于扎实的实证研究，探讨的是纳粹高层的思维方式。

It's about the mentality of not of the Nazi high ups based on great empirical research.

他通过实证表明，这些人只有穿上制服时，才在某种意义上变得‘像人’。

What he shows is that these people, he shows it empirically, only became, a sort of way, human when they were in a uniform.