劳里博士在《爱情真相》节目中探讨浪漫、父母与跟踪话题

这里是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

大家好，我是肯德拉·阿达奇，我的节目《懒人天才播客》帮助你在重要的事情上成为天才，在不重要的事情上偷懒，而由你决定什么才是重要的。我不是来告诉你该做什么，而是提供一种新的视角。《懒人天才播客》的每一集都充满了富有同情心的时间管理技巧和允许你做对你有意义的事情的许可单。

Hey there. I'm Kendra Adachi, and my show, the lazy genius podcast, helps you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't, and you get to decide what matters. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to give you a new way to see. Episodes of the lazy genius podcast are full of compassionate time management tips and permission slips to do what makes sense for you.

新集数每周一更新。请在免费的Odyssey应用或你获取播客的任何地方关注并收听《懒人天才播客》。

New episodes drop every Monday. Follow and listen to the lazy genius podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

普希金。情人节快乐。如我所承诺的，在这个最浪漫的日子里，我为你准备了一份可爱的小礼物。在《幸福实验室》的最后一集中，我与关系专家埃利·芬克尔和保罗·伊斯特威克聊了聊，探讨了浪漫喜剧在爱情方面哪些是对的，哪些是错的。但埃利和保罗有他们自己精彩的播客。

Pushkin. Happy Valentine's Day. As promised, I have a lovely little treat for you on this most romantic of days. In the last episode of The Happiness Lab, I chatted with relationship experts Eli Finkel and Paul Eastwick to explore what rom coms get right and wrong about romance. But Eli and Paul have their own fabulous podcast.

它叫做《爱情事实》，而恰好我最近作为嘉宾加入了他们。所以这里是我和埃利、保罗讨论我最喜欢的浪漫喜剧之一《情到深处》的科学。希望你们喜欢我们的对话。如果喜欢，请务必在你获取播客的地方查看《爱情事实》。

It's called Love Factually, and it just so happens that I recently joined them as a guest. So here's me and Eli and Paul talking about the science of one of my favorite ever rom coms, the movie say anything. I hope you enjoy our conversation. And if you do, be sure to check out love factually wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到《爱情事实》，这个播客利用亲密关系的科学分析浪漫喜剧和爱情电影。我们是你们的主持人，保罗·伊斯特威克和埃利·芬克尔，欢迎《幸福实验室播客》的客座主持人，洛里·桑托斯博士。感谢你今天加入我们。

Welcome to Love Factually, the podcast that analyzes rom coms and romantic films using the science of close relationships. We're your hosts, Paul Eastwick and Eli Finkel welcoming in guest hosts of the Happiness Lab Podcast, Doctor. Lori Santos. Thank you for joining us today.

非常感谢邀请我上节目。

Thank you so much for having me on show.

那么，劳里，告诉我们今天我们要讨论什么？

So, Laurie, tell us what are we talking about today?

今天我们要讨论的是《情到深处》，卡梅伦·克罗1989年执导的浪漫喜剧，主演是约翰·库萨克和艾欧恩·斯凯，抱歉。2002年，《娱乐周刊》将其评为过去25年排名第一的爱情电影。我们将探讨的主题包括依恋关系如何从父母转移到恋人、乐观主义的好处，以及什么行为才算跟踪。

So today, we're talking about Say Anything, Cameron Crowe's 1989 rom com starring, sorry, John Cusack and Ione Skye, which Entertainment Weekly ranked in 2002 as the number one romance movie of the past twenty five years. Yeah. Some of the themes we'll explore are how attachment bonds transfer from a parent to a romantic partner, the benefits of optimism, and what exactly counts as stalking.

提前声明，我们今天会剧透这部电影。所以如果你不知道一个女人能写多少首关于乔的歌，而且全是关于痛苦痛苦的歌，那就先去看电影再回来吧。好了，伊莱，告诉我们这部电影的主要角色和情侣有哪些？

And fair warning, we'll be spoiling this movie today. So if you don't know how many songs one woman can write about Joe and they're all about pain Pain. Then go ahead and watch this movie and come back. Okay. Eli, tell us who are the key characters and couples in this movie?

电影讲述了一个涉及黛安、她的父亲吉姆和她男友劳埃德的三角恋故事。故事发生在高中毕业后的夏天。黛安由艾欧恩·斯凯饰演，是一位低调的毕业生代表，夏天结束后将前往国外参加一项 prestigious 奖学金项目。同学们认为她漂亮善良，但她一直很忙，没人真正了解她。吉姆由约翰·穆拉尼饰演，是黛安的父亲。

The movie explores the love triangle involving Diane, her father Jim, and her boyfriend Lloyd. The story takes place during the summer after the young lovers graduate from high school. Diane played by Ione Skye is the unassuming valedictorian who will be leaving for a prestigious fellowship abroad at the end of the summer. Her peers view her as pretty and kind, but she's always been so busy that nobody really knows her. Jim played by John Mulaney is Diane's father.

他和黛安的母亲五年前离婚，之后黛安选择和他一起生活。他对女儿的爱是无尽的，但表达爱的方式有时值得商榷。劳埃德由约翰·库萨克饰演，是个有原则的懒散青年，也是个尽职的兄弟和舅舅。他最好的朋友是科里和DC，都是女孩。他最大的热情是跆拳道和黛安。所以保罗，这些就是棋盘上的棋子。

He and Diane's mother divorced five years earlier after which Diane chose to live with him. His devotion to his daughter is boundless, but the methods underlying that devotion are sometimes dubious. Lloyd played by Psy John Cusack is is a principled slacker and a devoted brother and uncle. His best friends are Corey and DC, both girls, And his primary passions are kickboxing and Diane. So Paul, those are the chess pieces.

准备好用一分钟告诉我们电影如何推动这些棋子了吗？

You ready to give us one minute on how the film moves them across the board?

准备好了。倒计时吧。我们开始。

Ready. Count me down. Here we go.

各就各位，预备，跑。

On your mark, get set and go.

超级优等生黛安·考特正在发表毕业演讲，而劳埃德·多布勒则盘算着如何正式约她出去。他邀请她参加毕业派对，并承诺会分享所有英语学习技巧，因为黛安秋季就要去英国留学，这成功打动了她。派对上，两人若即若离——黛安结识着高中时期从未深交的同学，劳埃德则扮演着派对钥匙管理员的角色。他们发展出充满可能性的友谊，计划在未来十六周尽可能多见面。劳埃德还熬过了在黛安家举行的家庭晚餐。

Super achiever Diane Court delivers a graduation speech as Lloyd Dobbler plots how to ask her out on a bonafide date. He wins her over by asking her to go with him to a graduation party and promising to give her all his English tips because she's moving to England in the fall for school. At the party, they orbit each other as Diane meets all the people she never got to know in high school while Lloyd acts as keymaster. They become friends with potential and plan to hang out as much as they can over the next sixteen weeks. Lloyd survives a family dinner at Diane's house.

他拜访了她父亲经营的养老院。他教她开手动挡汽车。他们在后座听着彼得·加布里埃尔的音乐发生了关系。黛安的父亲对这段恋情愈发反对，最终黛安妥协了。她与劳埃德分手，导致八通未接来电留言和一台在卧室窗外播放彼得·加布里埃尔情歌的音响。

He visits the retirement home run by her father. He teaches her how to drive stick. They have sex in the back seat listening to Peter Gabriel. Diane's father becomes more and more disapproving of her relationship with Lloyd, and Diane ultimately relents. She breaks it off with Lloyd leading to eight unreturned phone messages and a boombox Peter Gabriel serenade outside her bedroom window.

这段时间里，黛安的父亲一直在逃税问题上欺骗她，但国税局步步紧逼，她发现了父亲藏匿的大量现金。黛安与父亲当面对质，与劳埃德重归于好。父亲入狱后，黛安和劳埃德如约共赴英国——他向她保证，当禁烟标志叮咚响起时，一切都会好起来。

All this time, Diane's father has been lying to her about evading taxes, but the IRS closes in and she discovers her father's piles of cash. Diane confronts her father. She makes up with Lloyd. Her father goes to prison, and Diane and Lloyd fly to England together as he promised her that everything will be okay once the smoking sign goes ding.

你做到了。太棒了。

You did it. Amazing.

我绝对做不到的。我肯定会纠结这部电影的细枝末节。不过，干得漂亮，保罗。

I was never gonna pull that off. I was gonna get so stuck on minute details of this film. But, yes, amazing job, Paul.

这很有挑战性。好吧，劳里，不如由你开始，说说你和这部电影的渊源？

It's very challenging. Okay. Well, Laurie, why don't you kick it off by telling us what is your relationship to this movie?

我在八十年代还是个孩子时就看过这部电影。有趣的是，最近我和研究生时期的朋友以及他两个13岁的孩子一起重温了这部片子。重新观看的感觉很奇妙，因为如果电影是1988年左右上映的，我最初看的时候大概也是13岁，这就像一种奇怪的轮回。我既能在劳埃德身上找到共鸣——那种善良但懵懂、对未来迷茫的类型，也能在黛安身上看到自己——聪明但不属于漂亮那一挂。所以我有点像那种不太走运、不够酷但还算聪明的人。

So I saw this movie back in the nineteen eighties when I was a kid myself. And, interestingly, I just rewatched this movie with some a friend from grad school and his now two 13 year old kids. And it was fascinating to kinda rewatch the film because probably I probably watched it around the time I was 13 if it kinda came out around 1988, so it was, like, a very strange full circle. But I kind of both identified with Lloyd as being this sort of, like, kind but clueless, don't really know where you're going type person, and also Diane in the sense that she was, like, smart, not the pretty part. So I was kind of the, like, kind of unfortunate, not very cool, but also smart person.

所以我特别希望这对能成。和当年所有看过这部电影的女性一样，我完全爱上了劳埃德·多布勒。每个人都想要自己的劳埃德·多布勒。谁不想要那个——你知道的——彼得·盖布瑞尔的深情告白，整套浪漫操作。对我来说，提到八十年代那些至今仍能让我会心一笑、经得起时间考验的爱情喜剧，这部绝对是其中之一。

And so I, like, really wanted this couple to get together. And then I think, like, all women who watched this film back in the day, I just absolutely fell in love with Lloyd Dobbler. Everyone wants their own Lloyd Dobbler. Everyone wants the no, and this, you know, Peter Gabriel serenade, just the whole thing. So for me, when I think of, like, eighties rom coms that make me smile, and honestly, that still hold up today, this is really one of them.

这真的很棒。我觉得这部电影像是一种许可，允许男性展现敏感特质，同时还能因此获得欣赏。我也特别喜欢他喜欢黛安的多种原因中，包括她是个狠角色而且事业很成功。对吧？我是说，她非常聪明且成就斐然。

That's really cool. I do think that it felt like a permission structure to be a sensitive dude and that it but that you could also kinda be admired for it at the same time. And I also really liked too how he seems to really be taken with Diane for many different reasons, but also in part that she's like a badass and killing it out there. Right? I mean, she's, you know, very smart and successful.

而且很明显从一开始他就被震撼到了。

And it's very clear that from the beginning, he's like, wow.

是啊。劳埃德·多布勒简直就是支持女性事业的模范丈夫原型。对吧？在八十年代这还不常见。他愿意放弃自己稳定的跆拳道教职，陪她飞去英国。

Yeah. I mean, Lloyd Dobbler was like the OG, like, husband that's gonna support the woman's career. Right? Like, in the eighties when that wasn't so much of a thing. So I mean, he's gonna give up, you know, his permanent kickboxing kind of teaching ship to fly to England with her.

没错。为了

Right. To

协助她的学业。对吧？所以说，很理想化。

kinda help her out in her studies. Right? So, yeah, aspirational.

是啊，挺酷的。那么，伊莱，你呢？

Yeah. It's cool. Well, Eli, what about you?

我，你知道的，我在很多方面都与这个有联系。其中之一就是，我在这个播客里提过几次，我在高中时演过戏，埃文斯顿有个叫皮文（Piven，p i v e n）的剧场工作坊，就像杰瑞·皮文的父母，杰瑞米·皮文的父母创办的那样。我16岁时参加过，那是在1991年，你知道的，著名校友有约翰和琼·库萨克，哇，还有杰瑞米·皮文本人，一大堆这样的人。当时我参加的时候，是和马丁·斯科塞斯的女儿一起。

I, you know, I connected in a lot of different ways to this. One of them is is when I I've mentioned on this podcast a couple times that I I acted in high school and there's something in Evanston called the Piven, p I v e n, known like Jerry Piven's parent, Jeremy Piven's parents, theater workshop. So I took that when I was 16 and even then, so this was 1991 and you know, famous alumni John and Joan Cusack Wow. Jeremy Piven himself, like a whole bunch of stuff like that. And when I took it, I took it with you know, Martin Scorsese's daughter.

某种程度上，那是我第一次有了认真的女朋友关系，而且

And sort of had my first you know, serious girlfriend situation there and

等等，马丁·斯科塞斯的女儿？你可以说不。

just Martin Was Scorsese's daughter? You could say no.

哦不，不。

Oh no, no.

我可没约会过那个

I did not date That

那本来会是个很棒的故事。但事实并非如此，有趣的是，这证明了我从未长大，我现在就住在那个剧场工作坊所在的地方的隔壁街区。

would have been quite the story. It was not, but what's interesting is just proving that I never did grow up, I currently live one block from where that that theater workshop is held.

哦，不开玩笑。是的。那么，让我们转向讨论这部电影在亲密关系本质方面做对了什么，同时，你也知道，更广泛地说，关于幸福和乐观的本质。所以，劳里，你想为我们开个头吗？

Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Well, let's transition to talking about what this movie gets right about the nature of close relationships, but also, you know, about the nature of happiness and optimism more generally. So, Laurie, do you wanna kick it off for us?

是的。我喜欢这部电影的原因之一是，我认为它很好地展示了乐观的力量。对吧？

Yeah. So one of the reasons I love this film is I think it really does a nice job of showing the power of optimism. Right?

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

劳埃德是个，像是，表现不佳的人。戴安·考特根本不知道他是谁，但他告诉他的朋友们，比如他的两个女朋友，嘿。我打算，比如，约她出去。所以考特和DC的反应就是，不。你疯了吗？

Lloyd is this, like, underachiever. Like, Diane Court has no idea who he is, but he tells his friends, like, his two girlfriends, hey. I'm just gonna, like, ask her out. And so Court and DC are just like, no. Like, are you crazy?

美丽。这是什么？她她她是有着游戏节目主持人身材的聪明人

Beautiful. What is it? She she's she's the brain with the body of game show

主持人。嗯哼。

host. Uh-huh.

而她不知道这一点。对吧？所以他们觉得，劳埃德，她会毁了你的。别这么做。但劳埃德就是觉得，我要去试试。

And she doesn't know it. Right? And so they're like, she's just gonna destroy you, Lloyd. Like, don't do this. But Lloyd is just like, I'm gonna go for it.

我打算直接约她出去。正如我们在电影中看到的，最终这招奏效了。于是这就引出了一个有趣的问题：相信自己在看似极不可能的事情上能成功，对你有好处吗？比如，这是否会增加你成功的几率？事实证明，心理学对此有些有趣的发现。

I'm just gonna ask her out. And as we see in the film, ultimately, this works. And so this raises this interesting question about, like, is kind of believing you can succeed at something that seems incredibly unlikely good for you? Like, does it make it more likely that you're gonna succeed at the thing? It turns out that there's some interesting psychology on this.

心理学上有个著名效应叫罗杰·班尼斯特效应——跑步爱好者可能知道，罗杰·班尼斯特是英国著名田径运动员，历史上第一个在四分钟内跑完一英里的人。要知道四分钟一英里是什么概念...我连十到二十分钟跑完一英里都费劲。在班尼斯特之前没人能做到，但关键是从没人认为这是可能的，当时人们觉得这超越了人类极限对吧？

There's this famous effect in psychology called the Roger Bannister effect, which for you runners out there, you might know that Roger Bannister is a famous British runner who originally was the first guy to run the four minute mile back in the day. And the deal with the four minute mile I mean, I can't even barely run, like, a ten to twenty minute, like, twenty minute forty minute mile. Yeah. So so so, like, nobody had run the four minute mile before Roger Bannister, but importantly, no one thought anyone could. It was actually believed to be beyond Right?

所以当罗杰说'我要跑进四分钟'时，所有人都觉得他疯了。但在1954年那场著名比赛中，他做到了。紧接着神奇的事情发生了——人们突然意识到'原来人类可以做到'。仅仅一个多月后，就有人再次跑进了四分钟。

Human so Roger's like, I'm gonna run the four minute mile, and everyone's like, that seems crazy. But then at this one famous race in 1954, he ran it. But instantly, what happened after that is people said, oh, it is humanly possible. We can run it. And just over a month later, somebody else ran the four minute mile.

如今四分钟一英里对专业跑者来说甚至不值一提，因为太多人都能做到了。这说明什么？当所有人都认为不可能时，罗杰坚信四分钟一英里是可以实现的——这种心智模式让他更容易在生理上达成目标。这种信念促使他采取必要行动，比如坚持训练、突破极限等。相信自己能做到，实际上就更容易做到。

And now subsequently, a four minute mile is not even anything for somebody who's a real runner to super brag about because so many people have done this at this point. And so what does this mean? This means that Roger, believing that it was possible to run the four minute mile when everyone else thought it was impossible, the idea is that his mental model of this made it easier for him to actually physically achieve this. Like, it allowed him to engage in whatever behaviors he needed to do this, like, you know, practicing or sort of pushing himself or whatever. Believing he could do it meant it made it easier for him to do it.

我认为劳埃德也是如此。他必须相信自己能做到，才能鼓起勇气打电话，展现他那种与生俱来的幽默风趣和略带自嘲的特质。最终他放手一搏，果然成功了。

And I think this is true for Lloyd too. Right? To believe he had to do it, he had to call her up and, you know, just be his normal kind of jovial kind funny self, like little self effacing. But, like, he just went for it, and ultimately, it worked.

这太棒了。罗杰·班尼斯特效应与这部电影的共鸣在于，我们也看到了对他人的激励作用。嗯。比如派对上有个场景，劳埃德走向他的朋友迈克·卡梅隆交谈时，迈克说...

That's great. I mean, what I love about the Roger Bannister idea vis a vis this movie is that we also see the inspiration for other people. Mhmm. And so there's this point at the at the party where where Lloyd goes up to one of his friends, Mike Cameron, and and is talking to him. And Mike Cameron says

我想问你，你是怎么约到黛安·科特的

I wanted to ask you, how'd how'd you get Diane Court to go

你出去了吗？

out with you?

我给她打了电话。但怎么会成功呢？我是说，你到底是什么人？我是劳埃德·多布勒。这太棒了。

I called her up. But how come it worked? I mean, like, what are you? I'm Lloyd Dobbler. This is great.

这给了我希望。谢谢。好吧。

This gives me hope. Thanks. Alright.

所以，没错，就是那样。那句引述没错

So, yeah, that right. That quote right

那里是

there is how

这样运作的。

it works.

而迈克基本上就像五十年代末的其他跑步者一样，他们会想，哦，既然罗杰·班尼斯特能做到，那我们其他人也能做到。

And Mike is basically every other runner, like, the late nineteen fifties who were like, oh, well, if Roger Bannister can do it, you know, then the rest of us can do it too.

伊莱，你有什么发现？

Eli, what do you got?

天啊。劳瑞，你提到这部电影我太兴奋了。我都忘了里面有多少内容，从关系科学的角度看它真是发人深省。我先说一个电影里比较隐晦的点，这引出了我非常看重的一个理念。

Oh my god. Laurie, I'm so psyched you mentioned this movie. I had forgotten just how much is in here, and watching it from the perspective of relationship science was deeply enlightening. I'm gonna start by talking about something that's a little obscure in the movie. And it points to this idea that I put a lot of stock in.

某种意义上，社会现实就是现实。对吧？事物本质上存在于我们的社会共识中。戴安对她爸爸说的那句台词——'向你说真话总是感觉很好，因为如果无法与你分享，这件事就像没发生过一样'。

That in a sense social reality is reality. Right? That basically things exist within our social consensus. And and the line, Diane says this to her dad, she says, it always feels good to tell you the truth because if I can't share it with you, it's almost like it didn't happen. Yeah.

这句台词太棒了。回溯到六十年代，社会学家彼得·伯格和汉斯·弗里德·凯勒有篇论文讨论知识的微观社会学。他们真正想说的是：世界的现实是在与重要他人的对话中维系的。这里是父女对话，但最近玛雅·拉森贾克·马龙和托里·希金斯研究了这种'共享现实'，认为伴侣是共同理解世界的。

It's such a great line. And going back into the sixties, these sociologists, Peter Berger and Hans Fried Kellner had this paper where they talked about the micro sociology of knowledge. And really what they're talking about is this idea that the reality of the world is sustained in conversations with significant others. Now this is one with her dad. But more recently, Maya Rasenjak Malone and Tori Higgins have done research And on this shared reality they talked about partners as making sense of the world together.

他们论文里有句我超爱的话：'人类是真理制图师，寻找认知伙伴共同绘制现实边界'。这部电影虽然涉及很多，但我认为他们不太被注意的一点是：你可以拥有这些经历，但除非与人分享，否则它们就不算完全真实——这正是我爱这部电影的原因。

And they have this line in one of their papers that I love, which is that humans are truth cartographers searching for epistemic companions with whom to map out the bounds of reality. And the movie, again, it focuses on a lot of things, but I think one of the lesser noticed aspects of what they're doing is they're playing in this space that that yes, you can have these experiences, but until you've shared them with someone, they are not fully real, and I love that about this film.

好吧伊莱，这引出电影标题的有趣问题——'直言不讳'。我们该和他人分享所有现实吗？重看时有个场景：戴安告诉父亲她做爱了，因为车里那事后她回家晚了，她说'爸爸，我很难过不能和你分享，所以我要说出来'，然后直接说'我主动的'。

Okay, Eli, but that raises an interesting question that's shown in the title of the film, this idea of say anything. Yeah. Like, should we share all our realities with people? I have to say, again, rewatching this film with 13 year olds, the scene where Diane is telling her dad about having sex, because she's like she comes home late after the whole, like, sex in the car thing, and then she's like, okay, I just feel so sad I can't share this with you, so I'm just gonna go through it, dad. And she's just like, I attacked him.

太精彩了。'在马里布做了爱'。父亲的表情...连13岁孩子都看出严重越界了。比起戴安那代，这代孩子更倾向分享。科学对此有何说法？

It was so great. You know, had sex in Malibu. And the dad's face and even these 13 year olds were like, something major has been violated there. This is a is a new very much more sharing generation, I think, than, like, the generation, like, Diane came from. And so what does the science say there?

是这样吗？我们真的应该能够分享任何事情吗？诚实和关于每个真相的共同现实对关系来说重要吗？

Is that right? Should we really be able to share anything? Is honesty and shared reality about every truth important for relationships?

是的。我认为这个问题可以从两个角度来探讨，劳瑞。我很喜欢这个问题。第一个是关于共同现实的方面。确实，我认为她与劳埃德发生性关系这件事因为告诉了父亲而显得更加真实。

Yeah. I look, so I think there's two ways of engaging with that, Laurie. I love this question. The first one is about the shared reality aspect. And yes, I do think there's something realer about her having sex with Lloyd because she shared it with her dad.

从这个意义上说，我认为经典的共同现实理论是正确的。关于审慎的问题，是否存在某些情况下我们不应该与所有人分享一切，甚至是我们亲密的伴侣。我认为这个领域研究得还不够深入，但我相信确实存在某些类型的谨慎，某些事情可能最好不要在某些关系中分享。戴安和她父亲之间确实有着非常亲密特殊的关系，但一般来说，像性生活细节这类事情与父母分享可能平均来说有点可疑。这是我的猜测。

So in that sense, I think this classic shared reality literature is correct. This this question of discretion, are there circumstances under which we shouldn't be sharing everything with everybody, even our our close partners. I don't think the field has gotten into this enough, but I am persuaded that that there are certain sorts of discretion, certain sorts of things that that are probably best not shared in certain relationships. And it's true that that Diane and her dad had a very close and special bond, but in general, like details about one's sex life, sharing those with one's parents might be a little dubious on average. That would be my guess.

是的。我的意思是，即使在电影中也是这样。对吧？有那么一刻让人惊呼，天啊，她正在告诉父亲她刚发生了性关系。

Yeah. I mean, and even in the movie. Right? I mean, it there is this moment of, oh my gosh. She's telling her dad that she just had sex.

但我认为这是在她说'看，我愿意与你分享一切，即使是困难的事情'的背景下发生的。我觉得这实际上传递了一个有趣的信息：如果我们不能与亲近的人分享困难的事情、有争议的事情或敏感的事情，那么我们还能与谁分享呢？所以

But I think it was in the context of her just saying, look, I'm willing to share everything with you, even the tough things. And I feel like that is actually an interesting message that, like, with if we can't share our tough things with close others or controversial things or, you know, sensitive things, like, who can we share them with? So

保罗，我稍后会把这个话题抛给你，因为我知道你一定也发现了无数细节。但是劳瑞，关于这个'畅所欲言，分享一切'的理念，我认为电影标题部分其实是在讲她父亲的谎言。我们还没怎么讨论这个，但他们关系的整个前提是'畅所欲言'，然而同时他却卷入了这起贪污欺诈。他的动机可能是好的，也许我们会谈到这点，但这让她深受震撼。

So Paul, I'm gonna throw it to you in a sec because I know you also must have identified a million things. But but Laurie, on this this idea of say anything and share everything, I think part of the the title of the movie is really about her dad's lie. We haven't talked too much about it, but the whole conceit of their relationship is say anything. But meanwhile, he's been involved in this embezzlement fraud. And you know, his motives are probably good, maybe we'll touch on that, But she's deeply shaken by it.

关于将社会关系伴侣视为真相测绘者的想法，我发现当她发现真相时的反应很有趣。她深受震撼，她当时对劳埃德说的话是：'我父亲有罪，他欺骗了我，欺骗了所有人，我刚离开家，我需要你。'我认为她真正需要的是她的现实感。她的现实感被动摇了，她希望从他那里找到某种关于世界的稳定感。

And and on this idea of of like social relationship partners as truth cartographers, I find it interesting what happens to her when he when she finds out. She's deeply shaken and and what she says, she goes to Lloyd at that point and she says, my father's guilty, he lied to me, he lied to everybody, I just left home, I need you. And I think really what she needs is her reality. Her sense of reality is kind of shaken. And she's looking to him to find some sort of stability about the world.

我认为她回到他身边的部分原因在于这种认知需求——世界变得难以理解，于是产生了'请帮帮我'的动机。

And I do think part of why she went back to him is this epistemic, the world isn't making sense, please help motivation.

这实际上引出了我认为本片另一个刻画准确的地方，即人们随着年龄增长发生的依恋转移。大多数青少年会告诉你，他们最强烈的依恋纽带是与父母建立的。这包括多种行为表现，比如你想和谁待在一起？我们称之为亲近寻求。对吧？

I think that actually leads into one of the other things that I think this movie gets pretty correct, and it is the attachment transfer that takes place as people age, as people grow up. Typically, for most adolescents, they will tell you that the people that they have the strongest attachment bonds with are their parents. And that includes various behaviors like, who do you wanna be around? We call it proximity seeking. Right?

但问题在于你想和谁相处？情绪低落时向谁寻求安慰？我们称之为安全港湾。还有向谁寻求建议或分享喜悦？这部分我们称为安全基地。

But it's like who do you wanna be around? Who do you go to for support when you're feeling down? We call that safe haven. And then who do you go to for advice or to celebrate? And that we call the secure base.

通常这种转移会按顺序进行：人们从以父母为最亲密知己，逐步转变为以恋人为最亲密知己。最初你可能想花大量时间陪伴恋人，但仍会向父母寻求建议或支持。接着支持功能发生转移，最后建议功能也转向恋人。我认为我们目睹了她经历这个过程。而艾莉你刚才描述的场景，正是她完成这种转移的最终时刻。

And usually the transfer kinda goes in that order as people move from having parents be their closest confidants to having romantic partners be their closest confidants. So first, you you wanna spend all this time with a romantic party, but you might still go to the parent for advice or for support. And then the support transfers, and finally, it's that advice component that moves over to the romantic partner. And I kinda see we think we witness her go through that process. And and, Eli, that scene you were just describing, I think is is the moment the final moment where she has the the transfer is complete.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不过就她而言，我担心的是...她虽然完成了这种转移，但实质上她高中时期唯一能交谈的人只有父亲。而现在看来她唯一交谈的对象变成了劳埃德——顺便说句题外话，劳埃德确实是个绝佳的倾诉对象，因为他善良体贴，堪称史上最佳伴侣，但...

Although in her case, I worry that, like, the she she kind of does that transfer, but it really is, like, the only person that she ever talked to because she got in to have friends in high school was the dad. And now it seems like the only person that she's talking to now is Lloyd, which, bracketed, might be a great person to talk to because Lloyd is kind and considerate and the best significant other out there ever, but it's

这依然存在风险。

It's still not risky.

情况仍然不太好。我认为连劳埃德·劳埃德也意识到了这一点。电影中有一个场景，他提出了这个问题。当她回到他身边时，他说，你是需要我，还是仅仅需要别人？对吧？

It's still not really good. And I think even Lloyd Lloyd recognizes this. At one point in the film, he asked this question. When she comes back to him, he says, do you need me or do you just need somebody else? Right?

我觉得他其实甚至没给她回答的机会。他就说，算了，我不在乎。然后就直接告诉她并吻了她。

And I think there's kind of a he he doesn't actually even let her answer. He's like, never mind. I don't care. And he just tells her and kisses her.

这真的很棒。

It's really good.

重逢是完美的。但我觉得这引发了一个问题：黛安这种转移依恋的行为是否健康？她似乎没有从生活中其他人那里寻求帮助、支持或安全港湾。

Reunion is perfect. But I think it raises this question of, like, is this healthy that Diane is kind of transferring this attachment, but maybe not seeking out kind of help, support, safe havens, all these other things from just, like, other humans in her life.

是的。一般来说，社交网络单薄而非丰富对人们并不利。你会希望你们的小二人世界能融入一群其他关心你们关系发展的人中。所以你看，两个人独自相处虽然很浪漫，但从长远来看有点冒险。

Yeah. I mean, generally speaking, having a thin rather than a more developed social network is not great for people. You wanna feel like your little dyad is embedded in a a set of other people who are all invested in helping your relationship to work. And so, you know, two people going off on their own, it's very romantic, but it's a it's a it's a little risky in the grand

大局来看确实如此。而且这与劳埃德·多布勒的做法形成有趣对比，对吧？他有科里和DJ这样的亲密女性朋友可以倾诉。

scheme of things. And it's an interesting contrast with, like, how Lloyd Dobbler does it. Right? He's got Corey and DJ. He's, like, close female friends to go to.

他和姐姐关系密切——现实中是他亲姐姐琼·库萨克，对吧？还有她的儿子。他甚至还有一群在Sip and Go酒吧可以聊天、获取恋爱建议的男性朋友。我认为某种程度上，劳埃德更健康正是因为他有这些其他支持系统。

He's got this close relationship with his sister, who's his actual sister in real life, Joan Cusack. Right? And her son. He just kinda, like, has this he even has this, like, bevy of dude friends at the sip and go that he goes to to talk to and get, like, relationship advice from. But I think there's there's a sense in which, like, Lloyd is healthier in part just because he has these other support systems to go to.

是啊，不错。那么，劳瑞，关于这部电影，除了这些它做得对的地方，你还有什么看法？

Yeah. Cool. Well, Laurie, what else do you have about this movie, other things this movie gets right?

所以，我认为这部电影另一个做对的地方，或者说我真心希望情感科学能证实的，是它探讨了‘你觉得谁有吸引力’这个问题，对吧？

So so another thing I think this movie gets right, or at least I really hope the relationship science bears out, and I hope it gets very great, is is this question of, like, who do you find attractive? Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。你看，劳埃德是那种，怎么说呢，平庸之辈。他就喜欢他的跆拳道，没什么特别之处。普通到当他第一次给黛安打电话时，她竟然翻出毕业纪念册，试图找到他的照片来看。

Mhmm. You know, Lloyd is this kind of, like, you know, underachiever. He just likes his kickboxing. He's kinda unremarkable. So unremarkable that when he first calls Diane, she actually pulls out her yearbook and starts flipping through to try to look at him and to, like, look at his photo.

她根本不认识他，明白吗？

She just he he's just not known to her. Right?

这真有意思。

That's really funny.

但他很善良。后来她看到了这份善良。就在那次简短的邀约电话里，他逗笑了她，而她喜欢这样。这引发了一个问题：我们选择伴侣是基于外表、成就标准、人生前景，比如能否获得大奖或是成为毕业生代表，还是仅仅基于他们带给我们的感受？

He's, but he's kind. She sees that kindness later. Even on that short phone call when he's asking her out, he kinda makes her laugh, and she's into that. Yeah. And it kinda raises this question, like, do we pick people based on, you know, just their looks, just their success criteria, what they're gonna achieve in life, whether they're gonna get some huge fellowship and be valedictorian, or do we pick people based just on how they make us feel?

嗯哼，对吧？他们很友善，能逗我们笑，让我们感到积极。所以我的感觉是，根据关系科学，这部电影胜出了，但你们两位才是专家。

Mhmm. Right? They're kind They to make us laugh. They make us feel positive. And so my sense is that this movie is winning out according to the relationship science, but you two are the experts.

科学依据是什么？

What is the science?

保罗，你对此可能有些见解。

Paul, you might have a thought or two on this one.

劳里，我很高兴你提到这点。事实上，你对吸引力运作方式的期待确实成立。这非常接近人们实际体验初始吸引力的方式，我认为这正是你描述的场景中发生的情况。埃莲·沃尔斯特（后改名为埃莲·哈特菲尔德）在1960年代进行了一项经典研究，被亲切地称为‘计算机舞会研究’。研究者召集了一批大学新生，安排他们配对，观察谁喜欢谁。

I'm glad you brought that up, Laurie. In fact, your your hopes for the way attraction works are are indeed true. That is very close to to how people actually experience initial attraction, which is what I think is happening in that scene that you're describing. So there's this classic study by Elaine Wallster, then Wallster, now Elaine Hatfield, conducted in the nineteen sixties, and it's affectionately called the computer dance study. And the idea was that these researchers, they brought a number of college freshmen together, set them up with each other, looked to see who like whom.

这个研究的传说版本是——只有外貌吸引力起作用，其他因素都不重要。但现实是他们并没有很好测量其他变量。

The lore of this study is that, ah, only attractiveness mattered. Nothing else really mattered. The reality is they didn't, like, have great measures of the other stuff.

就连他们实际测量的那些——

And even the measures they did

也勉强算有效。只是所有人都惊讶于外貌吸引力的强大效力。如果你看现代速配数据，外貌吸引力的确存在且影响巨大，但自信心同样如此——这也是个效应量极大的因素。

have, it, like, kinda worked. It just I think everybody was surprised that physical attractiveness was so potent. So when you look at contemporary speed dating datasets, yes, the appeal of attractiveness is very much present. It's very powerful, but so is confidence. That's also a huge effect size.

对吧？这就是劳埃德的本质。风趣幽默也是如此，友善且反应迅速也是如此。这些都是积极且有意义的预测因素。

Right? Then that's Lloyd in a nutshell. So is being funny. So is being nice and responsive. These are all positive meaningful predictors.

并非只有吸引力才重要。所有其他特质最终也同样重要。所以我认为你说得非常准确。

It is not the case that only attractiveness matters. All of those other features end up being important too. So I I think you're spot on there.

我特别喜欢电影如何逐步展现劳埃德的道德品质。你快速总结中提到的一点是我最喜欢的。保罗，我很惊讶你提到了这点。尤其精炼有效的概括是——黛安最早了解到劳埃德的一件事，至少在派对上，他是所谓的'钥匙总管'。为那些可能不记得八十年代派对的人解释一下，就是负责保管所有人车钥匙的人，以防他们酒后驾车。

And I love how the movie just develops Lloyd's moral character over time. One of my favorite you mentioned it in your quick summary. I was surprised it got in there, Paul. Especially effective short summary was one of the first things that Diane learns about Lloyd is at least at this party, he's the so called key master. For those of you who may not remember eighties parties, is the person that, gets to hold everybody's car keys and so that they don't necessarily drive home drunk.

所以劳埃德某种程度上是判断某人是否能安全驾车回家的评估者。电影中我们看到这在一个朋友冲他大吼时达到高潮，而劳埃德只是说：'你必须进监狱'。

So Lloyd is sort of the evaluator of whether or not somebody is ready to drive home. And we see in the movie that this comes to a head with one of the friends who comes up to him and is screaming at him, and Lloyd is just like, you must jail.

你必须

You must

进监狱。你

jail. You

必须进监狱。

must jail.

你知道吗，他并没有把钥匙给他。对吧？但我觉得那一刻让黛安意识到，哦，这个人很负责任。你可以在学术追求之外也很负责，但这个人还带着某种同情心和善良。她看到了他所有这些优点，不是在他们关系的背景下，而是普遍意义上的。

You know, he doesn't give him the keys. Right? But I think that's a moment for Diane to realize, like, oh, this person is responsible. You can be responsible outside of your academic pursuits, but this person is also kind of compassionate and kind. Like, she's seeing all these, like, great strengths that he has, not in the context of her relationship, but just kind of generally.

对吧？我认为这肯定是个重要原因，是为什么八十年代看这部电影的每个少女都爱上了劳埃德·多布勒的巨大因素。

Right? And I think that that must be a huge mean, it's a huge factor in why every teenage girl who watched this movie in the eighties fell in love with Lloyd Dobbler.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。所以这对黛安来说肯定也是好事。

Right. So it must be good for Diane too.

是的。那么关于这一点，电影是否正确地描绘了吸引力？它通过多种方式做到了。同时也玩弄了一些错误的迷思，比如她可能配不上他。她是那个既有头脑又有身材的，你刚说什么来着？

Yeah. So on this, like, does the movie get the attraction right? It does so many different ways. So it it also plays with some false myths that, you know, she might be out of his league. She's the brains with the body of what did you say?

游戏节目女主持的身材。

The body of the game show hostess.

游戏节目女主持的身材。

The body of the game show hostess.

是的。所以她不在考虑范围内。而且物以类聚。一方面是这种'高攀不起'的观念，另一方面则是'不，同类相吸'，比如她怎么会看上你这样一个筋疲力尽的跆拳道手。而这部电影基本上驳斥了所有这些观点。

Yeah. So she's out of it. Also brains stay with brains. So one is this idea of out of your league, the other is like no, like likes attract like, like what would she want with you, you sort of burn out kickboxer. And the movie basically puts the lie to all those sorts of things.

当然，他们很般配因为他有其他优点，他们彼此关注，他能逗她笑。但有趣的是，我们在这个节目中经常讨论吸引力，尤其是关于相似性。对吧？普遍观点认为我们会被与自己相似的人吸引。但研究表明，我们其实是被那些我们认为与自己相似的人吸引。

Of course, they're compatible because he's got these other qualities and they're attentive to each other and he makes her laugh. But one of the things that's interesting is is we talk a lot about attraction on this show, especially with regard to similarity. Right? So there's this conventional view widespread that we're attracted to people who are similar to us. Turns out if you study that, we are attracted to people whom we think are similar to us.

这里你可以看到一点端倪，或者说这种现象产生的原因——有个场景她在养老院工作（不确定当时怎么称呼），她对劳埃德说'你要不要过来？'，然后她说'你好像对老人有意见'。他回答'其实没有，但确实有点，因为我曾在自助餐厅工作，老人们总蜂拥而至，他们张着嘴大快朵颐的样子...' 而她指出'这是年龄歧视，是对老年人的偏见'。

And you see this here a little bit because Or you see one of the reasons why this might emerge because there's this this scene where she works at an old person's home, a retirement home, I'm I'm not sure what they call it at that time. And she says to Lloyd, do you wanna come by? And he's like, and she says like, you seem to have something against old people. And then he sort of says, well, no, I don't, but I kind of do because you know, I used to work at a smorgasbord and the old people would flock there and they loved to eat and they just jam their mouths, you know, they ate with their mouths open. And she says, I think that's ageism and that's that's being prejudiced against people because they're old.

也许他们的口腔机能不如你灵活。他恍然大悟：'真的吗？你彻底改变了我的看法，原来是我视角有问题。' 关于这种亲密关系中的态度校准现象确有研究佐证。

Maybe their mouths don't work as well as yours. And he says, really? I Well, you're really turning me around here. I was looking at it the wrong way I think. And there is research on this concept called attitude alignment in close relationships.

然后这个

And this

研究是我导师Carol Rusbolt与九十年代末我在读研时的同学Jody Davis合作的成果。他们发现，当议题对另一方越重要时（显然劳埃德乐意承认黛安更在意这点），态度校准就越明显；关系越重要，校准程度越深。表面看他们似乎志趣相投——都关爱老人，实则这是他逐渐向她靠拢的结果，这种共同点是随时间培养出来的。

is work that my advisor Carol Rusbolt was doing in collaboration with a student who was there with me named Jody Davis when I was in graduate school in the late nineties. But what they find in that space is that alignment is stronger to the extent that the issue is central to the other person, and clearly Lloyd's happy to recognize that that Diane cares more about this than he does, And it's stronger to the degree that the relationship is important. And so what we see here is this will masquerade as look how much they have in common, they both love old people. But only because he basically tuned to her over time, and so it feels like they have these things in common, but in reality, they develop them together over time.

没错。这个观点很棒，也呼应了本片让我欣赏的另一点——它堪称'好男人行动指南'。我认为影片突出了异性恋男性拥有女性柏拉图式朋友的重要性，相关研究文献中也随处可见这种观点。

Yeah. I love that idea. It's also connected to one of the things that I really appreciated about this movie, which, again, sort of this nice guy manifesto idea for for for how it can work. And I think it highlights the importance of having female platonic friends if you are a heterosexual man. And this is everywhere in the literature.

举个例子，如果你观察敌意性别歧视与男性拥有女性朋友之间的相关性，会发现显著的负相关关系。你拥有的女性朋友越多，就越不可能支持敌意性别歧视。这类观念认为女性意图操控男性、占男性便宜，明白吗？

So if you look, for example, at correlations between, like, hostile sexism and if you're a man having female friends, that's a meaningful negative correlation there. The more female friends you have, the less likely you are to endorse hostile sexism. These ideas are like, oh, women are out to get men. Women are out to take advantage of men. Right?

类似这样的观点。这其实是个简单的群体间接触理论：我们花更多时间了解他人作为独立个体的特质，那些极其有害的偏见就会减少。此外，拥有更庞大的异性社交网络——这对男女都适用，异性恋男女皆然——他们在几年内建立恋爱关系的可能性更高。这项研究也针对高中生群体进行过验证。

Things like this. And it's a simple intergroup contact story. We spend more time with people just getting to know them as people and we have less of those really pernicious beliefs. Furthermore, having a bigger other gender network, and this is true for both men and women, heterosexual men and women, they're more likely to form relationships over a few year period. This is also done on high school students.

因此我认为我们在此真正看到的是，这些行为模式对异性恋男性而言是处世良方。如果你对女性感兴趣，想要真正了解女性并最终与自己真心喜欢的人约会，这部电影指出的正是最有效的方式之一。

So I think we're really seeing that here that these are good ways to be in the world if you are a heterosexual man. You so you're interested in women and you want to actually get to know women and ultimately date somebody that you're really into, this movie is is pointing out the one of the more effective ways to do that.

何况女性朋友中有时还藏着惊艳的歌者。没错，这点我们稍后也会谈到。

Plus the female friends are sometimes incredible songstresses. That's right. We'll get to that later on as well.

那些旋律在我脑海里萦绕了一整天。

Those songs were stuck in my head all day.

乔的谎言。乔在说谎。真的。

The Joe Joe lies. Joe lies. Really.

这些歌太洗脑了。为什么？完全搞不懂。

They're so catchy. Why? No idea.

是啊。她本该去写商业广告歌的。希望她确实这么做了，人生过得不错。当你理解这个定义时，听起来有点像劳埃德被黛安甩后结交的那些男性朋友对女性的某些观点。

Yeah. She should've went on to write commercial jingles. I hope that's She did. Did well in life. When you get that definition, it kinda sounds a little bit like the kinds of things that Lloyd's kind of male friends who he seeks out right after Diane breaks up with him, some of the views they express about women.

我觉得最精辟的是Sip and Grow小队里最年轻的那个成员，就是那个小孩说的，

I think the most succinct one was the the youngest member of the Sip and Grow crew, which is just this little kid who's like,

女人啊老天。天哪。天哪。但我超爱那个场景还有个原因，因为它彻底揭露了那个谎言对吧。关于是的。

bitches man. Oh my god. Oh my god. But another reason that I totally I love that scene because, again, it's all bearing down on exposing the lie Right. Of the Yes.

关于保持性别隔离的谎言。就在劳埃德问他们

Of keeping the genders separate. And it's when Lloyd asked them

我有个问题。你们这么懂女人，怎么周六晚上会独自在加油站便利店喝啤酒？周围一个女人都没有。

I got a question. You guys know so much about women. How come you're here, like, a gas and sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers? No women anywhere.

而他们真的

And they really

没得选。是自愿的。

have By no choice. By choice.

对。嗯哼。嗯哼。总之，好了好了

Right. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So anyway, there there

你看。它指出来了。我是说，我真希望劳埃德·多布勒能，比如说，到处走走，比如，去每个SellReddit的帖子里，就像，走进去问同样的劳埃德·多布勒式问题来打破这种局面。

you go. It points out. I mean, I I wish Lloyd Dobbler could, like, walk around and, like, go to every in SellReddit, like, thread and just walk in and ask the same Lloyd Dobbler question to kind of break this up.

说真的。好吧。那么告诉我们一些这部电影对亲密关系本质理解错误的地方。你们俩，有什么看法？

Seriously. Alright. So tell us about some things that this movie gets wrong about the nature of close relationships. Either of you, what do you what do you have?

我刚想到一个电影普遍搞错的地方，那就是踢拳似乎并不是那种文化运动

I just had something that the movie gets wrong generally, which is that kickboxing does not seem to be the sport

的代表。

of culture.

看，尽管如此。它看起来接近了，但还有点勉强。那真的不是关系层面的问题。那真的不是关系层面的问题。我想探讨的一个问题是关于跟踪行为的。

See, notwithstanding. It just seems it was close, but a little bit of okay. That's not really relationship size. That's not really relationship size. One of the things I wanted to look at was this question of stalking.

是的。因为我觉得这部电影描绘了一种有点奇怪的跟踪版本。这绝对是一个，你知道的，基于现在仍然存在的所有梗的版本，比如三十年后还流行的举着音响的场景——我查过了那确实是一台夏普GF-7600音响，老派的那种。

Yeah. Because I think this movie portrays a kinda strange version of it. It was definitely a version that, you know, I think based on all the memes that still exist now, like like thirty years later, like the holding up the boombox, which I was able to look up and is in fact a sharp g f 76,000 boombox. Just like old school.

纯粹浪漫的

Just the romantic

手提音响。就是那种纯粹浪漫的手提音响。我觉得你会喜欢，现在真的很难找到了。部分原因是因为现在已经不是八十年代了，但我觉得人们买它们就是为了模仿劳埃德·达布勒那种行为。那个动作太经典了。

boombox. Is the purely romantic boombox. I think you like, it's really hard to find them now. I mean, in part because it's like not the eighties anymore, but I think people have bought them for the specific act of sort of copying Lloyd Dabler. That's a move that iconic.

它出现在T恤和表情包里，但也近乎跟踪狂行为。所以，保罗，是的。这部电影对跟踪狂想表达什么？嗯。

It's on t shirts and memes, but it's also borderline stalkery. And so, Paul Yeah. What is the movie kind of saying about stalkers? And yeah.

我觉得这部电影某种程度上为某些跟踪行为开脱了。

So I felt that the movie kinda gives a pass to certain stalking behaviors.

它

It

用一种浪漫的方式处理，我不想说像操作手册，但有几个问题。首先，虽然这看起来无害，就是那八条电话留言。对吧？八条留言。有研究调查不同形式的跟踪行为，留下信息或打骚扰电话是最常见的几种。

treats it kind of romantically, kind of I don't wanna say a how to manual, but there's there's there's a couple things happening. One, and and I'll start with this, even though this really seems benign, are the eight phone messages. Right? Eight left messages. So there are studies that look at different forms of stalking, and leaving messages or unwanted phone calls are some of the most common ones.

嗯。这些行为最能体现跟踪者和被跟踪者感受的差异。是的。被跟踪的人讨厌电话留言，他们真的很想让这些停下来，而留下电话留言的人却觉得无所谓。

Mhmm. Those show the biggest discrepancy between what the person who is being left feels is likely to to be unpleasant and what the person who is being stalked feels. Yeah. People who are being stalked hate the phone messages. They they really want them to stop, and the people leaving the phone messages are like, oh, whatever.

我确信这并没有真正困扰他们。他们真的、真的令人不快。不请自来地出现在别人家也是如此。而且，大多数人如果已经和某人分手，也不会对这种行为持赞同态度。我觉得整个梗、整个概念在重看时让我意识到，哦，这和我的记忆不符。

I'm sure it didn't really bother them. They're really, really unpleasant. And so is showing up at somebody's house uninvited. Also, not the kind of thing that most people look upon very favorably if they've broken up with somebody. I think that I think that whole meme, the whole idea like, rewatching it, I was like, oh, this is not what I remembered.

我记得的是某种鼓舞人心的东西，不是胜利的感觉，而是那种‘我们上吧’的冲动，比如违抗你的父亲。但那场景根本不是那样的。

I remembered something inspiring, not like triumphant, but like like, let's go. Like, let's defy your father. That is not what that scene is at all.

是啊。和我一起看这部电影的所有成年人都记得那个手提音响的场景是以黛安冲出来结束的，然后他们才相遇，好像那样就奏效了。我当时就想，等等，当然没成功。

Yeah. All the adults that I watched this film with remember the the boombox scene as ending with Diane kind of rushing out, and that's when they meet up. And, like, it kinda worked. I was like, wait a minute. Of course, it didn't work.

他只是像个 creep 一样在半夜出现在勺子盒前。对，就是

He's just, like, creepily showing up at the spoonbox in the middle Yeah. Of the

如果电影里有他回到车里开车回家的场景会更好。但那个场景根本没出现在电影里。对吧。所以

It would've been it would've been better if they'd had the scene where he, like, got back into his car and drove home. That that scene never made it into the movie. Right. So

当他认真思考后觉得，也许那样有点过分了。是啊，我该尊重黛丝的界限。对。

When he thought really carefully and was like, maybe that was a little too much. Yeah. Like, I should really respect Dice's boundaries. Yeah.

没错。所以我其实想表扬这部电影，因为它没有展示那种做法会成功。对吧？而且在她改变主意之前，还需要发生许多其他事情。所以更多是我在批评电影在我们集体记忆中的烙印方式。

Yeah. And so I I wanna actually wanna give the movie credit for that that it actually didn't show that working. Right? And that it and that it it a number of other things have to transpire before she changes her mind. So it's more I think that I'm critiquing the way the movie lodged itself in our collective memories.

电影里包含了一些我认为并非本意、但确实不太妥当的内容。

It contains some things that I think the movie didn't intend, but but aren't a very good idea.

劳里，你会后悔选择参加我们节目的。不过我有个问题想问：在排除这类行为的前提下，诱惑某人究竟意味着什么？所谓诱惑的本质是什么？

Laurie, you're gonna regret that you ever, you know, chose to be on our show. But I have a question for you about this. So, what does it mean to seduce someone? Like, what does seduction mean if we stipulate that it isn't stuff like this? Right?

如果不是那种'她不确定，所以我就更殷勤些，搞点创新举动，留个搞笑语音或请吃饭'的行为——我也认同我们确实不该提倡这些。这部电影能过关，就像许多老片子一样，是因为她实际上愿意。关键是他当时无从知晓这点。

If it isn't stuff like, well, she wasn't sure, so I like tried to be more charming, I did something innovative, I left a funny phone message or ate. And I agree that like, I don't think we really want these behaviors. Again, the movie gets away with it in a way a lot of these old movies get away with it because she actually did want it. Right? That's the thing that he can't know.

当然他也没有理由相信她是自愿的，但事实如此。所以从观众视角看还算说得过去。劳里，你认为呢？当对某人感兴趣却不确定对方心意时，该如何说服对方'给我个机会，会很有趣的'？如果不像劳埃德·多布勒在电影里那样，那该是什么样子？

And certainly that he's not she's not giving him reason to believe that she really wants it, but she did. And so it's sort of okay from our perspective, from the viewer's perspective. But Lori, do you have an opinion? Like what would it what would it mean to be interested in somebody, be unsure whether that person is interested in you, and to try to persuade them that, know, give me a try, like it'll be fun. And is it if it isn't this, if it isn't what Lloyd Dobbler did in this movie, like what does it look like?

我认为本质上就是劳埃德的做法——不是举着音响那部分，而是其他方面。关键在于站在对方立场思考如何帮助她们、满足需求。

Yeah. Well, I think it is kind of what Lloyd Dobbler does, not with the boombox part, but with the other parts. Right? It's really thinking from the other person's perspective about how to help them and what they need. Right?

电影开头有个场景，黛安·考特后来对她父亲说'这就是我爱上劳埃德的原因'：当时他们在派对后散步，博伊德注意到地上有碎玻璃。虽然她光着脚继续走，他却坚持'不，让我帮你清理'——这就是换位思考。

One of the scenes in the beginning that that Diane Court actually comments on to her dad later when she's like, well, here's why I fell in love with Lloyd was they're just kind of walking around, and Boyd notices some broken glass on the And, you know, it's post party, so she's kinda walking around, bear with me. He's like, no. No. Let me just move that out of the way for you. Like, he's thinking about it from her perspective.

他在那个场景里准确揣摩了她的真实需求。我认为这才是最高明的诱惑方式：当我们真正为对方着想时，同时留意同意的信号。对吧？

He's kind of perspective taking, in that case, hopefully accurately, about what she really needs. And I think that's the spot where a kind of seduction works best. Like, when we're kind of perspective taking about what would help another person, but then looking for signs of consent. Yeah. Right?

是啊。我觉得那个地方，你知道，音响设备有点处于边界线上。但即便是劳埃德，我又在某种程度上为他辩护，因为他是劳埃德，那个疯疯癫癫的劳埃德小孩。而且，你知道，我怎么能后悔在八十年代看过的所有那些东西呢？但即便如此，他有个场景是人们试图说服他再多给她打几次电话。

Yeah. And that's the spot where I think, you know, boombox is kinda on the borderline. But even Lloyd, again, I'm kinda defending him because he's because there's Lloyd. Loony Lloyd toddler, and, you know, how how can I, like, you know, regret all the things I watched in the eighties and all these things? But even then, he has this sign where people are trying to convince him to call her some more.

我想那是他的女朋友们

I think it was his girlfriends

谁

who

试图说服他再多打几次电话。而他说：“我最多只留八条留言。”公平地说（括号补充），也许在八十年代多打几次是可以的，因为有时候人们正跑去接电话，你不确定电话何时转入留言，他们其实不想和你说话。但答录机时代，电话线可能扯得老远，他们又没手机。

were trying to convince him to call her some more. And he says, I draw the line at eight answering And to be fair, bracketed, I do that maybe it was okay to do a little more in the eighties, just because sometimes the people are running for the phone, like you didn't Right. Know When the phone goes to the message, they don't wanna talk to you. But the answering machine, sometimes it's like the cord's really far away. They don't have any the pocket.

懂吗？但劳埃德说的是：“我在设定界限。我给她机会，但最多只打八次。”对。

You know? So but but but Lloyd is saying, I'm setting a boundary. Right? I'm giving her a chance, but I'm drawing the line at eight home. Yeah.

他被说服最后再打一次。然后我们看到，她差点就接了。所以从我们的视角看，他得到了解脱——因为我们稍微知道幕后发生了什么。

He's persuaded to do that one last one. And then we see, right, that she almost picks it up. So he gets an out from our perspective because we know what's going on a little bit behind the scenes.

希望你们喜欢我在新播客《爱情真相》中的亮相。现在短暂休息一下，但保罗、伊莱和我很快会回来继续解析《说做就做》在恋爱科学上的其他误区。究竟什么才是美好生活？是关乎幸福、目标、爱情、健康还是财富？

I hope you're enjoying my appearance on the new podcast, Love Factually. It's time for a quick break. But Paul, Eli, and I will be back soon to explain what other things say anything gets wrong about relationship science. What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth?

在追求美好生活的过程中，什么才是真正重要的？这是获奖作家、创始人和访谈者乔纳森·菲尔兹在其顶级播客《美好生活计划》中向嘉宾们提出的问题。每周，乔纳森都会与知名思想家和实践者如亚当·格兰特、格雷琴·鲁宾、安吉拉·达克沃斯等数百人深入对话。立即开始收听，在您喜爱的播客应用中搜索《美好生活计划》。

What really matters in the pursuit of a well lived life? These are the questions award winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the top ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with renowned thinkers and doers, people like Adam Grant, Gretchen Rubin, Angela Duckworth, and hundreds more. Start listening now. Look for Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app.

那么，关于这部电影对亲密关系的误解，还有什么其他问题吗？伊莱，你有什么看法？

So, anything else about what this movie gets wrong about close relationships? Eli, what do you have?

听着，它大部分内容是正确的，但你知道，就像每部电影一样，它也存在一些错误。其中一个是，嗯，一个可以原谅的错误。但一般来说，在新关系刚开始的几周或几个月里做出永恒的承诺是有风险的。所以他写给她的那封信——劳埃德在与黛安发生关系后非常投入时写的那封信。

Look. It mostly gets stuff right, but the you know, it makes some errors like every movie. And and one of them is, you know, a a very forgivable error. But generally, it's risky to make forever promises in the first weeks and months of a new relationship. And so the letter that he writes to her, right, Lloyd writes this letter to Diane after they have sex and he's really into her.

整封信的内容是：亲爱的黛安，我会永远在你身边。我心中所有的爱，劳埃德。我对‘亲爱的黛安’、‘我心中所有的爱’或‘劳埃德’这部分没有意见，但他说‘我会永远在你身边’这部分。

The the letter in its entirety is, dear Diane, I'll always be there for you. All the love in my heart, Lloyd. Now, don't have a problem with dear Diane or all the love in my heart or Lloyd, but I think the part when he says, I'll always be there for you.

问题出在‘永远’这个词上。

It's the always.

确实是‘永远’的问题。是的。这可能是一个他实际上无法兑现的鲁莽承诺。他...他是在许下一个他可能根本没有能力履行的誓言。嗯。而我们经常这样做。

It's really the always. Yeah. Probably a bold commitment that he's actually He's he's he's making a vow that he really is probably not in a position to make. Mhmm. And we do this.

我们经常这样做。这很诱人，我们喜欢这样，也渴望这种感觉。我们在婚礼誓言中站起来说‘我会永远爱你’。对于那些认真对待誓言定义的人来说，这些似乎是高风险的选择。但我觉得在这个案例中，我...我有点不好意思建议说，真正浪漫的做法是告诉别人一些你实际上可能无法长期兑现的承诺。

We do this a lot. And it's desirable and we like it and we wanna feel this way. We stand up at our wedding vows and say I will love you forever. These seem like high risk choices for somebody who takes seriously what the definition of a vow is. But I do think this is one of the cases where I I just felt a little sheepish about suggesting that the really romantic thing to do is to tell somebody something that you really cannot you probably cannot promise you're gonna be able to deliver over time.

是啊。看电影时你会忘记，因为故事仿佛是在这整整两小时里构建的。有点像罗密欧与朱丽叶，对吧？实际上他们真正相处的时间只有几天而已。

Yeah. You forget when you see the movie because it seems like it's built over this whole, you know, two hour period. It's a little Romeo and Juliet. Right? You know, they've only really kinda hung out with each other for, like, a couple days, really.

你懂吧？

You know?

但没错。要知道这跨越了十六周，现在他们甚至要一起去异国生活了。

But Right. And you and even you know, it's over sixteen weeks, and now they are going to a foreign country together to presumably to live together.

是啊。

Yeah.

这么快就做出如此重大的承诺确实仓促。而电影显然想让我们觉得这是个成功故事——比如那个结局我很喜欢，与《毕业生》的对比也很妙，对吧？

And that is pretty fast to jump into that level of commitment. And the movie clearly wants us to feel that that we are witnessing a success story. I mean, you know, the the ending, I love it. And I love the contrast with the graduate. Right?

这两个人即将开始冒险，观众理应为她们加油并相信她们能行。但现实是十六周就认定她们已解决所有问题，这未免太过轻信。

That it's you know, here are these two people embarking on this adventure, and this one, we're supposed to be rooting for them and feeling like they've got it. But the reality is sixteen weeks, that is quite a leap of faith to think that that they've got it figured out at this point.

保罗，有意思的是，我认为这恰恰是电影可能没处理好的另一点——当然这取决于解读方式——比如机场那声叮响的寓意？作为全片最后镜头，显然具有重要象征意义。

You know, Paul, it's interesting because I actually think this is the other thing that maybe the movie doesn't get right. And and it this this depends on interpretation, but like, what is the point of the ding on the airport? Like, this is literally the last thing that happens in the entire movie. It's obvious that this is supposed to be really significant.

不过这真的很好。

It's so good though.

这太

It's so

好了。不过这真的很好。

good. It's so good though.

但我听说继续吧。继续吧。但有一种解读是，是的。

But I hear Go ahead. Go ahead. But there is a reading where Yeah.

你基本上就像是恋爱初期总是充满波折。所以再次提醒没看过电影的人，这段早期情节。黛安害怕飞行，而劳埃德陪她搭乘这班飞机。电影最后一幕，他们正前往英国参加她的奖学金项目。他说，如果有什么问题，肯定会在最初五分钟内发生。

You're basically like the early parts of a relationship are turbulent. So again, just a reminder for people who haven't seen the movie this this early. Diane is scared of flying and Lloyd is with her on this flight. Literally the last scene of the movie, they're going to England for this fellowship that she has. And and he says, like, if anything goes wrong, it's gonna be within the first five minutes.

所以你只需要坚持到叮声，机场的起飞后解安全带提示音。我记得是晚上的禁烟提示音。

So you just have to make it to the ding, the airport the the take off your seat belt ding. I think it was the no smoking ding in the evening.

是禁烟提示音。

It was the no smoking ding.

那是禁烟提示音。但因为飞机上的其他人都在攥着香烟盒发抖，试图熬到能点烟的时刻。

It was the no smoking ding. But because everybody else on the plane is like holding their pack of cigarettes shaking to try to wait till they can light one up.

我觉得没错。提示音就是可以点烟了，基本上就是可以点烟了。

I think the right. The ding is light up. It is basically light up.

是的。但不管怎样，也可能是安全带提示音。所以一种解读是，他们已度过动荡时期，我们听到的提示音就像是...现在开始风平浪静了。如果这是卡梅伦·克劳的本意，我觉得他犯了那种'从此他们幸福地生活在一起'的老套毛病。

Yes. But but either way, could have been the seat belt ding. And and so one reading is that now they're through the turbulent time and we're witnessing like the ding is like and now it's smooth sailing. And Yeah. If that is what Cameron Crowe intended, I think he's really guilty of the and they all lived happily ever after sort of thing.

所以我对这部电影的另一层担忧是，如果他在结尾场景暗示这类意思，那在我看来对这段关系未来六十年可能的发展轨迹简直错得离谱。

So I I think that is my other concern about the movie is that if he was implying something like that in the closing scene, that strikes me as wildly incorrect about what the next sixty years of that relationship might look like.

或者接下来的，比如说你

Or the next, like, you

知道的，四个月，六十年后

know, four months, sixty years to

到了英国，她开始学习。整个伦敦都找不到泰拳馆之类的，诸如此类。

England, and she starts studying. There's no kickboxing in all of London and etcetera, etcetera.

没错。那么他究竟打算如何自处呢？我认为这是对的。比起那些结局时角色团聚却未展现他们如何应对挑战的电影，我觉得那些版本更逊色，因为在这里我们确实看到了他们克服了一些困难。虽然我非常喜欢整个结局的处理方式，但我理解你的意思。

Right. And and what exactly is he gonna do with himself? I think that's right. I think compared to some movies where they get together at the end and then we don't see anything about them encountering challenges, I I think those versions are worse because we do see them overcoming some stuff here. But I I hear you as much as I love the way that whole ending is done.

我明白，你知道，未来还会有考验。

I get it that with you know, that there are trials to come.

我能试试一个更符合实际的说法吗？好的。如果整个飞机航程中遇到异常剧烈的颠簸——在安全带指示灯熄灭前就出现不寻常的颠簸——这会不会像是一种隐喻？意味着我们将共同经历这段旅程，漫长的人生旅途会充满波折。但只要我们紧握彼此的手，就能渡过难关，一起等待那一天的到来。

Can I just can I just, like can I try out a, like, a a more empirically sane version? Yes. Yes. What if that whole plane flight, where there's a lot of turbulence, like an unusual amount of turbulence for a plane taking off before the seatbelt thing goes off, what if that is kind of a metaphor for like, we're gonna go on this trip together, the long version of our life together is gonna have a lot of turbulence. But by holding each other's hand, we'll get through it and, you know, we'll kinda wait for the day.

知道吗？这让我想起你之前关于《社交网络》的观点。他有两位非常亲密的女性朋友，猜是女友吧？她们还为这次航班准备了东西对吧？我想她们知道她害怕飞行，而这是他们作为情侣的第一次共同冒险。

You know what's I don't know. That's funny about that, Laurie, is that that that reminds me of the point you made earlier about the social network because his friends he's got these two really close women friends, girl friends, guess. And they have also packed some stuff for this flight for them. Right? They've packed some things to make sure like, I think they know that she's nervous about flying and they're having this adventure together as a couple for the first time.

所以这些真心祝福他们恋情的朋友们，为旅程准备了贴心的物品。我认为这预示着，哇，他们似乎已经为未来可能面临的许多挑战打下了良好基础。

And so those friends who are really invested in the relationship have packed for them some nice things for the trip. And that that is I think harkens back to, wow, they seem to have a pretty good foundation for a lot of what they might be going through next.

这很酷。就像婚礼习俗对吧？就像大家聚在一起给你们送上祝福那样。

That's cool. That's like a that's like a a wedding thing. Right? It's like, you know, you get everybody together to sort of give you, you know, well wishes on your way.

我反对。

I object.

那么我们对这个没问题吧？这部电影里有什么引发道德困境或其他顾虑的地方吗？有没有哪些内容随着时代显得不合时宜？大家都有什么看法？

So are we okay with this? Anything in this movie raise moral quandaries or, other, concerns? Other things age badly? What what does everybody have here?

嗯，我觉得有趣的是——就像我提到的，我是和两个2024年出生的13岁孩子一起看的。他们真心很喜欢这部电影，但有两处让他们觉得有点好笑。可能因为他们年纪还小。

Well, I could say what was interesting is that I I as I mentioned, I watched it with two twenty twenty four 13 year olds. Yeah. And they genuinely really liked the film. They had two things that were kinda funny. Maybe this is that they were a little young.

首先是...我们当时和他们爸爸一起看，所以他们特别不喜欢那个性爱场景。反应就像是'天啊他们在接吻，为什么不盖毯子？他为什么在发抖？'

One was that well, first of all, we were watching with their their dad, and so they really didn't like the sex scene. They were just like, oh god. They're kissing. Why aren't they under the blanket? Why is he shaking?

他们完全接受不了这个。第二点是当黛安和劳埃德分手时，他们特别困惑，一直在说'但她不是这么想的啊，她为什么要这么说？她根本不是这么想的'

Like, they just literally couldn't handle that. But the second thing was that they were really confused when Diane broke up with Lloyd. Where where they're like, but she doesn't think that. Why is she saying that? She doesn't think that.

他们就是...理解不了。他们无法处理她因为父亲疏远而产生的混乱情绪，反复说'但她不是这么想的对吧？他们肯定会和好的对吧？'

And and they kind of just, like, couldn't get it. Like, they kind of couldn't handle her kind of confusion based on what was going on with her dad of sort of stepping away. And they're like, but she doesn't think that. Right? They're gonna get back together.

对吧？他们似乎...所以这可能反映了当代年轻人对电影中复杂情感和冲突的理解困难，他们当时确实很难接受。

Right? Like, they kind of were seeing And so so maybe this is the current generation having a hard time with, like, you know, tough emotions or complicated conflict in the film, but they had a really tough time.

这真的很有意思。

That's really interesting.

你知道吗，重新观看这部电影时最让我大开眼界的一点——劳瑞，再次感谢你推荐这部片子，它真是令人愉悦——在于它不仅仅是一部儿童电影。正如你刚才描述的，13岁的孩子们可能没看懂，但作为一个父亲，尤其是一个有青春期女儿的父亲，我对片中父女关系的刻画有了更深的思考。

You you know, one of the things that was really eye opening about watching it again, and here, Laurie, thank you again for recommending this one. It was just a delight. Is it's not just a movie for kids. That was that was something that I think you're describing here, the 13 year olds didn't get it, but also as somebody who is now a dad. I'm actually a dad of a teen girl, and I just thought a whole lot more about the dad daughter dynamic.

事实上，主持人称这为'三角恋'。虽然这不是大众对这部电影的常规解读，但我认为剧情核心确实是两个男人深爱着女主角——当然她父亲的爱绝非性意味——她将成为他们生活的重心。而她正试图平衡这种关系，与劳埃德相处的时光让她感到不安，因为即将离家的她觉得或许应该多陪伴父亲。这种青少年恋情中罕见的复杂性与成人感，正是13岁观众难以理解的原因：她在对父亲的强烈责任感与不知如何安置劳埃德的矛盾中，最终做出了与感情相悖的分手决定——从她承受的多重情感压力来看，这个选择其实合乎情理。

And the truth is, at the top called this like a love triangle. I don't think that's the standard way people think about this movie, but I do think that's what's happening, is that these are two men who are deeply in love with, obviously there's nothing sexual with her dad, of course, but deeply in love with her, that she is gonna be somewhat or to a significant degree the center of their lives. And she's trying to balance that and she feels awkward about this time that she's spending with Lloyd, given that she's going away and she feels like maybe she should be with her dad. And so I think there is like a sophistication, an adultness of this teen romance that you almost never get in a teen romance. And I think that's why, part of the reason why I think the 13 year olds didn't get it is she feels this strong sense of obligation to her dad and doesn't know how to fit Lloyd into that schema, and therefore ends up playing around for a while with breaking up with him in a way that doesn't make sense for her feelings for Lloyd, but isn't crazy from the perspective of the various emotional forces that are buffeting her.

我注意到这部电影有个略显过时的设定，可以归结为同一个问题：是否有些X世代观众误将此片当作育儿指南？认为教育就该极致鞭策孩子，在高中阶段切断他们的社交？虽然这更像是对当代X世代家长的刻板印象而非现实。

One of the things that I flagged as being a little bit that sort of age badly or age strangely about this movie is in the same category. And I'll pose this in the form of a question. Did did some Gen Xers think this was a parenting manual? And that that that that the way to parent is to really push your kid as much as possible, cut them off from socialization when they are when they are in high school. Again, I think this is sometimes a stereotype of gen x contemporary parenting rather than the reality.

但不可否认，如今高中生面临的成就压力确实远超从前，像黛安·考特这样的学生早已不是个案。我在想，当年有多少人看完电影后真的打算这样教育女儿？

But I do think there is much more pressure today to achieve achieve achieve for people in high school that people like Diane Court are very common these days. Right? You know? She was the one person in her high school, and now, like, this is a thing. And and so I wonder how many people saw this movie and thought, like, that's how I'm gonna treat my daughter

1101，对吧。还有税务欺诈。不过除了税务欺诈那部分...

one one zero one. Right. And tax fraud too. No. But I mean, apart apart for the tax fraud, no.

保罗，我觉得你切中要害了。看看现在这代青少年，和我们一起观影的13岁孩子们——他们堪称史上最孤独的一代。

I I mean, Paul, I think you're really onto something. Right? Like, we look at the current generation of teenagers, right, the 13 year olds that we're watching this with, this is the loneliest generation

确实。

Yeah.

自我们开始测量青少年的孤独感以来，他们也是学业最繁忙、学业压力最大的一代。单看作业量的激增，这些情况自电影拍摄以来就在持续上升。除此之外，我们看到类似黛安那样逐渐远离传统约会关系的趋势正在萌芽，对吧？

In history since we've been measuring loneliness in teenagers. They're also the most academically busy, like, most academically strifey. We just, like, look at just sheer amounts of homework, those things have gone up since the making of this film. And beyond that, we see, like, the seeds of the fact that they're kinda like Diane, like, shifting away from these sort of dating relationships. Right?

比如现代青少年的性行为比过去任何时代的同龄人都要少。所以你提到的这种黛安·考特式育儿理念可能确实预示了某种社会变化。是的，开始显现了。孩子们还注意到一个细节：劳埃德作为钥匙管理员收走了所有人的车钥匙，但工作结束后他却说'给我递瓶啤酒'。

Like, the fact that, like, modern teenagers are having less sex than teenagers have ever had back in the day. And so you might be kinda onto something where this sort of Diane Court School of child rearing was, like, kinda coming Yeah. Up a little Yeah. Another thing that the kiddos picked up on is that, you know, Lloyd does this lovely thing where he's the key master and he's taken everyone's keys. But then when his job is over, he's like, hand me a beer.

然后他居然拿着啤酒开车回家。连13岁的孩子都立刻反应过来：等等，不是说不能酒驾吗？这个观察确实一针见血。

And he then go proceeds to drive home with a beer. And even the 13 year olds were like, wait a minute. Like, I thought we weren't drinking and driving. You know? Was like, good good point.

是啊。

Yeah.

太精彩了。关于感情关系的台词，我们已经讨论了几处经典片段，你们还有其他值得剪辑分析的台词吗？

That's great. Relationship quotes. We've hit a few good ones already, but do either of you have any other quotes, that we should clip in here and talk about?

我想到个有趣的例子，这又回到那个本质问题——虽然电影里是青少年在表演让我们产生共鸣，但剧本终究是成年人写的。有几处场景能明显听出成年人的口吻。比如劳埃德与黛安发生关系后，他见到朋友时被追问'你们上床了吗？看他的表情就知道了'这段台词。

So mine is kind of a funny one, and it gets back to this idea that, like, these are teenagers who are acting in the film that we're trying to identify with, but the film is actually written by adults. And a few and a few points, I think you hear the adult voice kick in. And so this was a quote that happened, just after Lloyd has sex with, Diane, and he's meeting up with his friends, and they're trying to suss out, oh, did you have sex? Or did you have sex? Look at his face.

他确实得手了。'劳埃德，你是我们的楷模，该去七百俱乐部节目分享经验'这样的调侃就很典型。

He did the deed. You're an inspiration, Lloyd. You should go on the seven hundred Club something.

好了，好了，好了。冷静点。好了。

Alright. Alright. Alright. Calm down. Alright.

冷静下来。没什么不一样的。

Calm down. Nothing's different.

劳埃德，听我说。一切都变了。你们发生了关系。无论你怎么想，你们之间的关系永远都不会和以前一样了。你可能60岁了。

Lloyd, listen to me. Everything has changed. You've had sex. No matter what you might think, nothing will ever be the same between you two. You might be 60.

你可能走在街上，和她随便聊些什么。但你真正在想的是，我们上过床了。

You might be walking down the street, and you'll talk to her about something whatever. But what you'll really be thinking is, we had sex.

这让我觉得，嗯，挺有意思的，就像，我觉得这是一种你不可能知道的情况。除非你，嗯，你知道，已经四五十岁了。就像，我只是觉得没有19岁的人会那样回想当时的事。

And that struck me as, like, interestingly, like, it struck me as the kind of case that you couldn't know that Yeah. Unless you were, like, you know, in your forties or fifties. Like like, I just didn't think any 19 year old would be thinking back that that's then.

是啊。有时候，尤其是科里，她的智慧超出了她的年龄。

Yeah. Sometimes sometimes Cory, in particular, has a wisdom beyond her years.

超出了她的年龄。

Beyond her years.

我想，大概是在她为乔写的第五十三和第五十四首歌之间的某个时刻，她突然领悟了人生的智慧。

It was somewhere between the fifty third and the fifty fourth song she wrote for Joe that she just developed life's wisdom, I think. I

我在想那盘磁带会不会被传到网上了。要是能买到就好了——如果有人把那些片段拼凑起来做成合集的话。

I wonder if that tape is, like, on the Internet somewhere. That'd be awesome. If we can buy like, if somebody has, like, cobbled together all of those clips and somehow created something.

那样我们最终就能用那台蓝色夏普GF760播放器放来听了。

And then we can ultimately play it on a sharp g f seven six zero blue box.

太棒了。好吧，还有其他金句吗？

I love it. Alright. Any other any other quotes?

有。还有件事让我印象深刻：他留了七条语音留言后，在第八条也是最后一条里说——

Yeah. There's one other thing I love. He left those seven voicemails, and then on the eighth and final voicemail, he says

别接电话。你知道这样最好。我一直在想，或许我从未真正了解你。或许你只是幻影。或许这个世界不过是食物、性与狂欢的模糊幻象，而所有人都在奔向死寂之城。

Don't pick it up. You know it's best. I've been thinking maybe I didn't know you. Maybe you're a mirage. Maybe the world is a blur of food and sex and spectacle, and everyone was just hurtling towards Necropolis.

如果是这样，那也不是你的错，明白吗？或许这一切也有好的一面。我不知道。我一直在思考这些问题。

In which case, it's not your fault, know? Maybe it's a good side to all this. I don't know. I've been thinking about these things.

我之所以喜欢这一点，是因为它与这些真相测绘者有些关联。他仿佛被这段关系的瓦解彻底击垮，无法真正理解发生了什么。也许你只是个幻影，一切都显得混乱不堪——这种反应在分手后相当常见，我们会暂时失去秩序感、结构感，甚至自我认知。我认为这段引文，他留给她的第八通也是最后一通语音留言，完美捕捉了这种困惑的本质：结束一段重要关系可能令人迷茫，而他正竭力想要理清头绪。

The reason I love that is because it ties back a little bit to this like truth cartographers. He's like really thrown at the dissolution of the relationship and he doesn't really make, he's not really able to make sense of things. Maybe you were just a mirage, it's all sort of confusing and this is a pretty common reaction in the wake of a breakup is we lose a little bit of our sense of order, our sense of structure, our sense of who we are. And I think this this quote, this last eighth and final voicemail he leaves for her, I think really captures the essence of this idea that it can be bewildering. It can be confusing to end a meaningful relationship, and he's just struggling to make sense of it.

是的。人们走出分手阴影最困难的事情之一，就是理解它并构建叙事。那么关于亲密关系或其他心理现象，我们希望能了解哪些尚未有答案的问题？这部电影提出了哪些我们目前还无法很好解答的疑问？

Yeah. That is one of the hardest things that people have to do to get over a breakup is to make sense of it and develop that narrative. So what do we wish we knew about close relationships or any other psychological phenomenon, you know, questions that this movie poses that we don't have great answers to yet?

当我们怀疑所爱之人时该如何行动？起初黛安娜坚信父亲绝对清白，她跑到国税局说：快停下，你们抓错人了。对方却表示：不，我们没抓错，他罪证确凿。随后给出的理由让她开始动摇：糟糕，他可能真做了这事。

How should we act when we are suspicious of a loved one? So at first, Diana's convinced that there's She no way her father did anything goes to the IRS and says, stop it, you've got the wrong guy. And he's like, no, we don't. He's guilty as sin. And then gives her enough reason to believe like, uh-oh, maybe he did this.

于是她做了什么？她开始窥探。翻查他的抽屉，最终解锁了某个私密物品，继而发现：不妙，这里有一堆不该出现的百元大钞。但我并不清楚人们产生怀疑时通常会有怎样的行为模式。

So what does she do? She snoops. She looks through his drawers. She eventually unlocks something private and then eventually discovers, uh-oh, there's a bunch of like $100 bills here that shouldn't be here. And I just don't have a sense of how people generally behave when they become a little suspicious.

我不知道。他是在接收那个女孩的短信吗？我有点怀疑。这能成为借口吗？人们会因此认为'好吧，我要黑进他的邮箱或短信查个究竟'吗？

I don't know. Is he getting text messages from that girl? I sort of think maybe. Is that an excuse? Is that something that people use to say, okay, well, I'm gonna break into his email or his texts and try to find out what's going on.

人们何时会这么做？何时开始扮演私家侦探的角色？在什么情况下这种行为是合乎道德的？我认为我们对这些问题的认知还非常有限。

When do people do that? When do they start acting like private detectives? Under what circumstances is it ethical to do those things? I just don't think we know that much about that.

说到这个，至少在2024年，我觉得很多人会采取众包策略。不知道你们是否关注Reddit上那个'我反应过度了吗'的板块。

Well, is a spot where I, at least in 2024, I feel like people crowdsource this a lot. I'm not sure if you all are fans of am I overreacting on Reddit.

这真是好东西。

That's good stuff.

但我觉得这就像Reddit上经典的'我是不是反应过度了'帖子——比如'我爸爸，你知道的，国税局正在调查他养老院税务欺诈的问题，然后我在他的私人房间里看到一些钱。我是不是反应过度了？'不过我认为这是我们可以采取的做法。对吧？我是说，不一定要在Reddit上，但我们可以向亲近的人提问，比如'能给我些建议吗？'

But I think that this would be like a classic am I overreacting on Reddit where it's like, my dad you know, the IRS is investigating my dad for, you know, nursing home tax fraud, and, you know, I saw some money, like, in his private chamber. Like, am I overreacting? But I think that is something we can do. Right? I mean, I think not necessarily on Reddit, but we can go to our close others and ask the question, like, can you give me some advice here?

比如'这合理吗？'这又回到了你之前提到的观点，Eli，就是关于我们寻求真相的过程。对吧？我们试图弄清楚——如果你只是私下持有这种认知，很难判断，但通过收集他人的意见，我们突然就能明白：是我太偏执了，还是这确实是个需要更详细关注的真实情况？

Like, does this make sense? And again, this gets back to the kind of thing you were talking about earlier, Eli, right, where we're looking for truth seeking. Right? We're trying to figure out is my, like if you have that reality just privately, it's hard to kinda know, but we're getting some other folks' opinions on things. All of a sudden, we can know, am I just being paranoid, or is this kind of a real situation that we need to pay attention to in more detail?

我觉得我们在节目里经常讨论的一个话题是亲密关系中的动机性推理。我们对亲近的人存在各种认知偏差，只想相信自己愿意相信的事。但同样重要的是意识到，有时这些信念在现实面前无法成立。现实始终存在，你终究需要面对它。

I I feel like one thing we talk about a lot on this show is the, like, motivated reasoning and close relationships. We have all these biases about our close others. We just wanna believe what we wanna believe. And it is also important to realize that sometimes those beliefs cannot be sustained in light of reality. Reality is still a thing, and at some point, you have to confront that.

所以寻求其他关系中的社会验证是个好方法。这部电影让我既喜爱又感慨的是——真希望我们能更多这样研究吸引力——就是他们初次约会的本质。不是说商场里那段，那个不算数。

And so going to other relationships, I mean, that kind of social proof is is a good way to do that. For me, the thing that this movie pointed out that I loved but also thought, like, oh, I wish we studied attraction like this more. And it is the nature of their first date. Date, right, that they go to this I'm not talking about the whatever the thing was at the mall. That doesn't count.

对，那个不算。当他们去派对时，他们一边互动，一边观察对方与他人的互动方式。

Right. That doesn't count. When when they go to the party and they're, like, kind of interacting, but they're also watching each other interact with other people.

对吧？

Right?

这在很多方面类似于过去的约会方式。它关乎社交网络。你们在相互了解的同时，其他人也在对话中进进出出。我们就是这样判断是否与他人有共鸣的。我不禁思考，当我们转向那种简历式的约会——面对面坐着，轮流发言，交换统计数据，期待某种化学反应时，我们是否真的失去了某些东西。

That this is in many ways what dating kinda used to be. It was about social networks. You're getting to know each other, but other people are floating in and out of the conversations at the same time. And this is how we see if there's a connection with somebody else. And I wonder if we've really lost something as we transition to the resume version of dating where you sit down across from somebody and I talk and you talk and I talk and you talk and we exchange statistics and we hope that something clicks.

我认为缺少这类约会确实让我们错失了一些东西。他们处于约会状态却只有部分时间互动的设定，有种特别的魅力。这想法多酷啊。说真的，我多希望这不仅仅是个逝去的时代。完全同意。

And I think we really miss something by not having these kinds of dates. There was something really special about this idea that they are on a date, and they're only interacting for a fraction of the time. Like, what a cool idea this is. And, you know, I I wish this wasn't so much a bygone era. Totally.

好吧。有个让我感兴趣的点，不过可能只是劳埃德·多布勒的感情状态与我当前感情生活的映射关系。

Okay. Here's one that I got interested in, but it might just be, how the Lloyd Dobbler relationship situation maps on to my own love life right now.

不，这很好。

No. It's good.

所以这里存在一个开放性问题：劳埃德和黛安是否在正确的时间相遇。嗯哼，对吧？显然他们一起上了三年高中。是的。

And so there's this open question about whether or not Lloyd and Diane got together at the right time. Mhmm. Right? Clearly, they went to high school for three years together. Yeah.

他们经历了奇怪的高中三年——哦，

They had this weird three year high Oh,

那段他们共同度过的...对，没错。

school where they had yeah. Yeah.

是啊，那件事也挺离谱的。他们的老师反应是：什么？他们只上了三年学？哦，对。

Yeah. So freak that was another thing. Their teacher was like, what? They only went to school for three years? Oh, yeah.

这对他们来说很震撼。但显然，黛安和劳埃德整整重叠了三年。明明有那么多派对他本可以邀请她参加的。毕业后她才剩下几周时间就要去英国做研究员了。

It's a big mind blowing for them. But but, clearly, Diane and Lloyd overlapped for three whole years. Clearly, there was lots of parties he could have invited her to. It's after graduation. She's only got, like, a couple weeks left before she skedaddles off to The UK for her fellowship.

那是开始恋爱的合适时机吗？他是不是该早点行动？在时间所剩无几时开始的感情是否特别？我喜欢这个问题是因为，我和丈夫在一起时刚得知自己获得了耶鲁的工作，几周后就要搬过去。

Was that the right time to kinda get together? You know, should he have done it sooner? Is there something special about a relationship that begins when it doesn't have much time? And the reason I like this question is that my husband and I got together right after I found out that I was getting a job at Yale. And I was about to move there in a couple weeks' time.

我们和黛安与劳埃德一样正好有十六周时间

We had almost exactly the sixteen weeks that Dyed and Lloyd had

当时我们还想着，我一直很想去纽黑文生活

with And we thought, I've always wanted to be in New Haven.

没错。但我认为他完全没这么想过。

Yeah. And I think he super didn't think that.

也许他有小窍门。他有些建议可以

Maybe he had tips. He had tips for

纽黑文。不。是的。不。他，他没想到会这样。

New Haven. No. Yeah. No. He he didn't think that.

他没想到会这样。但你知道，我认为在某些方面，当时在某种程度上感觉像是，哦，这没什么压力。我们可以慢慢了解彼此，享受这个过程，因为如果认为这段关系的结局必须是他跳上飞机去纽黑文，直到你知道，颠簸导致叮的一声，或者我猜是汽车版本的类似情况，那就太傻了。我一直在想，有没有关于这方面的数据？那是一件好事吗？

He didn't think that. But, you know, I think that in in some ways, it was in some ways at the time, it felt like, oh, there's no pressure to this. We we can just kinda get to know each other and enjoy it because it would be silly to think that the end of this has to result in, you know, him hopping on a plane to New Haven till, you know, the turbulence caused the ding or I guess a car version of that or whatever. And I've wondered, like, is there data on that? Was that a good thing?

对我来说是件好事。对劳埃德和黛安来说似乎也是件好事，尽管正如我们讨论过的，我们不知道之后发生了什么。时间的珍贵性以及我们无法将其视为长期关系的事实，因为有其他限制，这对事情有帮助还是有损害？

It was a good thing for me. It seems like it was a good thing for Lloyd and Diane, although as we've talked about, we don't know what happened afterwards. Is the preciousness of the little time and the fact that we can't think of this as a long term thing because there's some other constraint, Does that help things or hurt things?

这很有趣。你知道，我们对这方面的研究并不深入。你说得对。有一种现象叫做分分合合的关系。一般来说，某些关系比其他关系有更多的波动和变动，它们通常还有一些其他不太理想的特征。

It's fascinating. You know, we don't study this all that well. You're right. There's this phenomenon of on again, off again relationships. And the general idea is that some relationships have more of this turbulence, this turnover than other relationships do, and they generally tend to have a number of other features that are less than optimal.

但我不认为有很好的研究探讨情境力量如何在一段关系开始时为人们创造有利或不利的条件。除了一些社交网络方面的研究，这方面的资料真的不多。但研究一些简单的问题会非常有趣，比如我们会在同一个地方待多久，以及这会产生什么样的影响。

But I don't think there's good work looking at the situational forces that might set people up well when they start a relationship or set people up poorly. Other than some of the social network stuff, there really isn't that much out there. But it would be really interesting to look at something as simple as how much time will we be in the same place and to see what kind of effect that has.

是的。你知道，关于为你创造有利条件的情境研究并不多。但我想到了另一种思考这个问题的方式，即是否存在一些情况，无论长期未来如何，都能加速浪漫关系的发展？保罗，你和我有时会谈到Art Aaron的快速朋友程序。

Yeah. You know, there's not much in in terms of the situations that set you up well. But it occurs to me there's another way of thinking about this question, which is, are there circumstances that will supercharge the pace of a romantic connection regardless of the the long term future? And and Paul, you and I talk sometimes about Art Aaron's fast Friends procedure. Yeah.

问一些疯狂而亲密的问题，或者你们连续三分钟对视，有这些程序。劳里，我猜，我认为像夏令营恋情这样的事情，知道有一个结束日期，在某种程度上是一种去抑制因素。我希望这个领域有更多的了解。我猜可能有一类去抑制因素，让我们愿意快速变得脆弱和亲密。所以是的，我猜知道我们只有X周或X个月的时间会起到这种作用。

Asking crazy and intimate questions, or you look into each other's eyes for three consecutive minutes, There's these procedures. My guess, Laurie, is that what I think of as like the summer camp romance thing, this idea that there's an end date, My guess is that that is in some ways a disinhibitor. And I wish the field knew more. My guess is that there is probably like a or a category of disinhibitors, things that make us willing to get vulnerable and intimate quickly. And so yes, my guess is that is that knowing that we've only got x number of weeks or x numbers of of months will do that.

然后有趣的问题是，好吧，如果你已经加速了亲密关系的发展，那么在什么情况下这种亲密关系能持续很长时间，甚至可能永远持续下去？这一点我相当确定我们一无所知。

And then the interesting question is, okay, well if you have supercharged the intimacy, under what circumstances does that intimacy last for a long time, possibly even forever? And that is something that I'm I'm pretty sure we know nothing about.

这真的很酷。就像是，这段关系有一定的亲密潜力。如果你给我们，比如说四天时间，我们就能迅速达到那种状态。是的，我们会很快到达那里。

That's really cool. So it's like, well, this relationship has a certain amount of intimacy potential. And if you give us, you know, four days, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna get it off. Yeah. We're gonna get there fast.

完全没有问题。是的，这真的很酷。

At all. Yeah. That's really cool.

你们都讨论过类似的情况，比如《爱在黎明破晓前》和《爱在日落黄昏时》这些电影，其中描述了这种短期内加速发展的关系。我想知道这些因素是否也在起作用。

And you all have talked about cases like this, like Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, these other movies where you have these kind of short periods of supercharging relationships. I wonder if these factors play out.

没错。倒计时实际上可能是一种催化剂。

Right. That the ticking clock could in fact be an accelerant

是的。

Yes.

在某些情况下是这样。我认为我们在那些电影中看到了这一点。而且，是的，你说得对。我认为在这里，我们也以更现实的方式看到了类似的情况。十六周会比那些在几小时内发生的电影情节更常见于超速发展的浪漫关系中。

In some cases. And I I think we see it in those movies. And and, yeah, you're right. I think we see it here too in in some ways in a more realistic way. Sixteen weeks would be a more common hypercharged romance than than those movies where it's happening in matter of hours.

是的。

Yeah.

在本播客中，我们采用一星到五星的标准为电影评分。现在让我们依次谈谈各自给这部电影打多少分。劳瑞，我首先请你发言。你给《情到深处》打几星？

So we rate movies on this podcast from one to five stars. So let's all go through and talk about how many stars we give this movie. Laurie, I will throw it to you first. How many stars do you give Say Anything?

一亿颗星！开玩笑的。听着，我选这部电影是因为它是我的挚爱。劳埃德·多布勒让我神魂颠倒。

100,000,000 stuff. No. Look. I I chose this one because it's a favorite. Lloyd Dobbler Swoon Swoon.

等等，我的最高评分是多少来着？四星。

Wait. What's my top stars? Four.

五星。满分五星。

Five. Five.

你可以

You can

最高打五星。

go as high as five stars.

是的。抱歉。对。对。所以我超爱这部电影。

Yes. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So I love this movie.

劳埃德·多布勒让我心动。对我来说必须是五星好评。

Lloyd Dobbler Swoon. It's gotta be five stars for me.

好的。伊莱，你给桑迪·格林打几星？

Okay. And Eli, how many stars for Sandy Green?

五星。只是因为不能打五亿颗星之类的。我本来就知道喜欢这部电影，但真不记得它有这么棒。

Five. Only because I can't take all the 500,000,000 or whatever it was. I I knew that I liked this movie. I didn't really remember just how great it was.

我们要来个帽子戏法了——我也给五星。约翰·库萨克这样的男人简直是楷模。

We're gonna make this a hat trick. Five stars from me as well. What a man to have as a role model, John Cusack.

天，傻透了。

Boy, dumbass.

谢谢。对吧？我们总说八十年代电影传递的不良信息，而这部电影就是解药。1989年它横空出世，一扫阴霾。我们也在Rustbolts上给电影评分。

Thank you. Right? I mean, we talk about the bad messages from eighties movies, and this was the antidote. It came along in 1989 and cleaned the slate. We also rate movies on Rustbolts.

如今‘锈螺栓’奖项是以伊莱的导师——已故的伟大卡罗尔·锈螺栓命名的，她是亲密关系研究的先驱，五颗星代表对亲密关系本质近乎完美的刻画。这次我先来评分，我给这部电影四颗锈螺栓。我认为它正确呈现了许多我们今天讨论的内容，但让我无法给出满分五颗锈螺栓的原因，正是其中那些跟踪纠缠的情节。

Now the Rustbolt is named after Eli's adviser, the late great Carol Rustbolt, pioneer of close relationships research with five stars indicating a near perfect depiction of the nature of close relationships. I'll go first on this one. This movie gets four rust bolts from me. I think it got a lot of things right, a lot of the things that we covered here today. A few things that I thought were a the the reason it doesn't go all the way to five rust bolts for me is really just that stalking component.

不知为何，这些情节在我们的记忆中被默许甚至美化了，按今天的标准完全可以称之为跟踪骚扰。但总体而言，我仍给出四颗锈螺栓。伊莱，你怎么看？

I think it somehow lodged in our memories as as endorsing or maybe excusing some some things that we'd call stalking today. But overall, four rustbolts for me. Eli, what about you?

我要给五颗锈螺栓。我列了大约11个电影刻画精准的细节，虽然我们只讨论了其中几个重点，但卡梅伦·克罗编剧时的洞察力令我震撼，演员们的演绎也堪称完美。这部电影精准展现了亲密关系的运作机制。

I have this at five rustbolts too. I have I mean, I I had a list of, I think, 11 different things that I thought the movie got right. We talked about some of the bigger ones, but I was floored by the level of insight that Cameron Crowe had when writing this, and and also by the delivery from these particular actors. I thought it was just great and illustrated exactly, I think, a lot of how relationships work.

是啊。萝莉，你的看法呢？

Yeah. And Lori, what about you? What do you think?

我倾向于四颗半锈螺栓。保罗，我完全理解你说的——重看时那些跟踪情节让我毛骨悚然。可能因为和我一起观看的13岁男孩马克斯...电影结尾时他居然用手机外放彼得·盖布瑞尔的《In Your Eyes》，像个情圣似的站在那里。

Yeah. I gotta go with like four and a half rustfuls. Like, Paul, I share your I share your intuition that the stalking stuff just had me a little bit more skeeved at when I rewatched it. That was probably because one of the 13 year olds I watched with, a boy named Max Yeah. Just at the end of the film took his iPhone on speakerphone and played Peter Gabriel's in your eyes, like standing there looking for a lord.

我当时就想：不，不该学这个

And I was like, no, that wasn't the one

你领悟错了重点。那分明是个绝望的瞬间啊。

message you took. No. It was it was a desperate desperate moment.

所以我要给它扣掉0.5分。不过，我确实也认同艾利的直觉，这部电影充斥着许多八十年代风格的设定。

So I'm gonna knock it down point five. But, yeah, I mean, I I share Eli's intuition too that, like, this movie felt a lot of stuff ready for the eighties.

确实如此。好了，今天的时间就到这里。这里是《爱的事实》播客，我们非常荣幸邀请到特别嘉宾洛里·桑托斯博士。

It really did. Well, this is all the time we have for today. This has been the Love Factually Podcast, and we have been delighted to have as our special guest, Doctor. Lori Santos.

洛里·桑托斯。

Lori Santos.

《幸福实验室》播客的主持人。洛里，非常感谢你今天参与我们的节目。

Host of this Happiness Lab Podcast. So Lori, thank you so much for joining us today.

随时欢迎。只要你们需要，我随时准备再来做客

Anytime. I'm I'm ready to come back whenever you need

我们很可能会再次邀请

We are likely to take

你。当你们需要八十年代烂片专家时，我

you off. Whenever you need an expert on bad eighties movies, I

我在这里。

am here.

我们开始吧。开始吧。或者为此准备些好点子也行。好了。那么，今天就到这里了，期待未来有机会与你们二位再次合作。

Let's do it. Let's do it. Or good ones for that matter. Alright. Well, that is all we have for you today, and I look forward to doing this with both of you at some time in the future.

《爱情真相》播客由保罗·伊斯特威克和伊莱·芬克尔制作并剪辑，配乐来自安德鲁·弗雷克及其儿子们。

The Love Factually podcast is produced and edited by Paul Eastwick and Eli Finkel, featuring music from Andrew Fraker and Sons.

在他的播客《追逐生命》中

On his podcast, Chasing Life

我是桑杰·古普塔医生。

I'm doctor Sanjay Gupta.

CNN首席医疗记者为您揭秘地球上最幸福、最健康人群的秘诀，助您活出精彩人生。

CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life.

有些人天生就比别人更快乐吗？他们可能在做哪些我们其他人没做的事？

Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't?

在Apple、Spotify、iHeart播客、Amazon Music或任何您获取播客的平台，跟随Sanjay Gupta医生一起追逐生活。

Follow chasing life with doctor Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, iHeart podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.