你有信任问题吗？

这里是iHeart播客。欢迎收听《解码女性健康》。我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究院女性健康与妇科主任。在本节目中，我将与顶尖研究人员和临床医生对话，解答你们迫切关注的问题，将关于女性健康及中年期的前沿资讯直接传递给你们。

This is an iHeart podcast. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

百分之百的女性都会经历。

A hundred percent of women you.

人们常提到的症状包括遗忘一切。我以前从不会忘事。她们一方面担心自己患了痴呆症，另一方面又在怀疑：我是否患有注意力缺陷多动症？

The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia, and the other one is do I have ADHD?

大麻素在改善睡眠、减轻疼痛方面展现出前所未有的潜力，

There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain,

还能提升情绪，让日常生活更加美好。

to have better mood, and also to have better day to day life.

请在任意播客平台收听伊丽莎白·波因特医生主持的《解码女性健康》。

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter wherever you get your podcasts.

普希金。

Pushkin.

欢迎来到我们关于2025年世界幸福报告的两部分系列节目的第二期。上一集中，我们讨论了共享餐食的减少。但在这一集中，我们将转向关注另一种下降趋势的章节。法国经济学家Jan Algin、Curran Blanc和Claudia Senek在其中研究了社会信任的变化，尤其是我们许多人在疫情后观察到的信任度下降。经济学家们发现全球社会信任度大幅降低，并指出这些信任变化不仅对我们的集体幸福感造成重大打击，还导致了他们所谓的反体制思维的增加，人们开始拒绝传统政党并转向民粹主义。

Welcome to the second of our two part series focused on the 2025 World Happiness Report. In the last episode, we talked about the decline of shared meals. But in this episode, we'll turn to a chapter that focuses on a different decline. In it, the French economist Jan Algin, Curran Blanc, and Claudia Senek look at the changes in social trust, particularly the decreases in trust that so many of us have observed post pandemic. The economists find that there's been a huge reduction in social trust globally, and they argue that these changes in trust have led not just to a big hit on our collective happiness, but also to increases in what they call antisystem thinking with people rejecting traditional political parties and turning to populism.

我想理解如何解读这些发现及其对全球福祉的影响。为此，我决定求助于我最信任的科学专家之一来帮助我。

I wanted to understand how to make sense of these findings and the implications they're having for well-being worldwide. So to help me out, I decided to turn to one of my favorite experts on the science of trust.

大家好，我是Rachel Wattsman。我研究信任问题已有超过十五年的时间，我的最新著作名为《如何信任与被信任》，这个双向标题是有意为之，因为信任就是这样运作的。我们信任他人，同时也希望他人信任我们。你可以在Audible、Spotify或Pushkin FM上找到这本书。

Hi, everyone. My name is Rachel Wattsman. I've been studying trust, oh, for over fifteen years now, and the latest book is called How to Trust and Be Trusted, intentionally a two way title because that's how trust works. We trust other people, and then we want others to trust us as well. And you can get it on Audible, Spotify, or Pushkin FM.

读者告诉我这本书真正改变了他们信任他人及被他人信任的方式，这正是我写这本书的初衷。

People tell me that it's really changed the way they trust others and others trust them, and that was the reason for making it.

作为信任问题专家，我很好奇你对世界幸福报告专门用一整章讨论信任有何反应。你觉得这是早该如此，还是出乎你的意料？

And so as a trust expert, I'm curious your reaction to the fact that there's an entire chapter of the World Happiness Report devoted to trust. I mean, is that something you think is long overdue? Is that something you were surprised by?

说实话，我很惊讶这个关联性现在才被正式提出。虽然我一直对'幸福'这个词有所保留，但满足感和快乐确实与社会信任紧密相关——不仅关乎我们生活中的人际关系，还包括我们对自己冒险探索新事物的信任度、在新关系中承担风险的意愿，以及对制度和社会的信心。所以这个强相关性并不意外，意外的是它花了这么久才被重视。

I'm surprised it's taken so long to make that connection, if I'm honest, because I mean, I've always struggled with the word happiness, but satisfaction and joy is very much tied to social trust. So not just the people we have in our lives, but how much we can trust ourselves to take risks and explore new things, how much we can take risks in new relationships, how much confidence we can place in systems and society. So yeah, there's a very strong correlation there. So it's it's not a surprise, but a surprise it took so long.

你在阅读报告时，有没有发现什么特别引人注目的内容？

I mean, when you read the report, was there anything particular that you found especially striking?

我发现最令人不安的是，人际信任度甚至不是下降，而是断崖式暴跌。这包括对家人、朋友、同事等亲近之人的信任。2020年是转折点，你会觉得这是疫情所致，但信任度却未能恢复。如果是社会信任（比如对陌生人的信任）下降我还能理解，但亲密圈子的信任也无法修复才真正可怕。

I found it very alarming looking at the it's not even a decline. It, like, falls off the cliff in interpersonal trust. So that's the trust in families, friends, coworkers, people close to us. The marker is 2020, so you think, that's the pandemic, but there's no recovery from it. I could understand if it was social trust, like trust in strangers and other people, but the fact that there's no repair in that close circle.

对我而言，这反映了一个未被充分重视的重大社会问题。不仅是孤独感——人们独处和在家的时间比历史上任何时候都多。虽然我担忧孤独流行病，但更让我警惕的是报告中揭示的'反社交社会'的兴起：我们与亲近之人相处、主动建立社交联结的能力正在退化。

And for me, this ties into what I think is a huge societal problem that's not getting enough attention. And it's not just loneliness. It's that people are spending more time alone and at home than ever before. Yes. I worry about loneliness as an epidemic, but I feel the rise of the antisocial society, our ability to be with other people, even people close to us and want to go out and connect with people, that was what I found the most alarming in the report.

我们先定义下信任。你提出了个有趣的定义——'与未知事物的自信关系'，这个视角很独特。能具体解释吗？

Let's just start by defining trust. You've had a kind of curious definition of it, one that I I I haven't seen, this idea of this confident relationship with the unknown. What do you mean there?

没错。'与未知事物的自信关系'揭示了信任存在的本质。当结果可预测或风险极低时，你并不需要太多信任。真正需要高度信任的，恰恰是充满不确定性和未知变量的情境。这就是为什么信任与不确定性存在强关联——这与大多数人对信任的认知恰恰相反。

Yeah. It's, so a confident relationship with the unknown describes the need or the existence for trust. So if you know the outcome of something or if you know how something's gonna turn out or there's very little risk in a situation, you don't actually need a lot of trust. It's in those situations where there is a really high unknown or there is a lot of uncertainty where you need the most trust. And that's why there's such a strong tie between trust and uncertainty, which is the flip of how many people think about trust.

我常请人们定义信任，得到的答案通常围绕稳定性与可预期性，比如可靠性。有趣的是我们本能地将信任锚定在这种'确定性光谱'上，而实际上信任最该出现在未知情境中。

So I ask many people to define trust, and the answers you get back are typically around stability and expectations, things like reliability, which I find really interesting that we're so wired on that sort of solid side of the spectrum, and that's what we attach trust to versus trust is needed in those unknown situations.

信任在不同语境下的作用也值得探讨，这正是你研究中的精彩之处。能否举例说明信任发挥作用的不同领域？

It's also needed across all kinds of different contexts, and I think this is something you've so nicely pointed out in your work. Give me an example of the different domains in which we see trust and where trust seems to matter.

最让我沮丧的是媒体那些笼统论调——'信任全面崩塌'之类的标题。这种表述不仅无助于我们理解现状，对改善信任危机也毫无帮助。

One of the things that really frustrates me is when you hear these very generalized ways of talking about trust. Oh, trust is in a state of total decline. Right? That's the media headline, and it's really not helpful. It's not helpful for our own states.

这对社会或任何体系都无益，因为我认为信任存在于不同的圈层。我将列举几种类型，它们或许能引起共鸣。首先是偏学术化的概念——制度信任，即人们对机构产生的信任。

It's not helpful for society or any system because I think of trust in different circles. So I'll give you a couple because they might ring true. The first is sort of more academic. You can think of institutional trust. So that's trust you place in institutions.

无论是司法体系、医疗系统、教育机构还是政府部门，这类对实体的信赖都属于制度信任范畴。另一种我们称之为人际信任，这才是日复一日真正影响我们的信任关系。

The legal system, health care, education, government, whatever it might be. That's trust in institutions. That's trust in an entity. Then you have what we call interpersonal trust. This is the trust that really impacts us day in, day out.

它存在于家人、挚友、亲密圈子以及同事之间。这些纽带至关重要，也正是我最担忧的部分。

It's our family. It's our friends. It's our close circle, our coworkers. And those bonds are really, really important. They're the ones I'm actually most worried about.

更广义的层面还存在社会信任，即我们对陌生人、未知群体的信任，以及对正直、道德良善等理念的信念。以上是学术视角下信任的三种框架。另一种理解方式是将信任分为：自信、信人、以及他人对你的信任，这更像是同心圆模型。信任危机可能出现在任一圆环中。

And then more broadly, we have social trust, and that is the trust that we can place in strangers, the people we don't know, our belief in things like integrity and moral good. So they're the sort of three academic ways of framing trust. Another way of framing trust is to think of trust in yourself, trust in others, and then the trust they placed in you. So that's more of like a concentric circle approach. And trust issues can arise in any three of those circles.

有些人难以相信自己却轻易信任他人，也有人莫名总被他人信赖却不愿信任别人。这些信任圈层的动态关系非常值得玩味。

So some people find it very difficult to trust themselves but can trust others easily. Others find that people naturally trust them for some reason, but they don't necessarily trust other people. So I find those circles really interesting to think about.

这些因素对幸福感至关重要，却又充满变数。不是吗？如果连自己都不信任，又怎能期待他人对你的看法？要厘清这些复杂关系想必相当困难。

They seem to be so important for happiness, but also really dynamic. Right? You know, if you don't trust yourself, then what's that gonna lead other people to think of you and things like that? I mean, it must be really complicated to kind of get at some of these dynamics.

而且信任始终在演变。它绝非固定资产，我不喜欢人们用'信任储蓄'这样的比喻——仿佛是个蓄水池。信任会随年龄增长而变化，随阅历积累而改变。

And constantly evolving. So trust is not like this fixed asset. I don't like it when people talk about banking trust, you know, like it's a reservoir. They change with age. They change with experience.

它们随环境而变。最重要的是，它们随情境而变。信任是如此依赖情境，而这正是我们常常忽视的部分。

They change with environment. And most importantly, they change with context. Trust is so so contextual, and this is the part that we often miss.

看来在这些不同维度上的信任对我们的幸福至关重要。但信任似乎也存在两个问题。对吧？一是过于信任他人，结果可能会被周围的人甚至自己辜负。对吗？

So it seems like trust in all these different dimensions is super important for our happiness. But it seems like there's also two problems that we could have with trust. Right? One is the idea of being too trusting, and then, you know, you kind of get let down by the people around you, maybe even by yourself. Right?

第二则是信任不足的问题。对吧？就是没有意识到他人其实支持你，不确定性也没想象中可怕。所以我想逐一探讨，或许先从过度信任开始。部分原因是据我理解，这正是你最初对信任产生兴趣的原因之一。

The second is this idea of being not trusting enough. Right? Kind of not realizing that other people actually have your back and the uncertainty is not as scary as you think. And so I wanted to go through each of these in turn, maybe starting with this idea of being too trusting. In part because my understanding is that this is one of the reasons you got interested in trust in the first place.

和我分享一下你童年时周围人可能过于信任的故事吧。

Share with me the story of of what happened in your childhood where folks in your world were maybe too trusting.

是的。人们通常不认为这是个问题，但它确实是。有趣的是，高度信任者与自认为情感敏锐、直觉强的人存在高度相关性。原因在于你被告知很会识人，能捕捉信号。所以如果你自称对人的直觉很强——

Yeah. I don't think people often think of it as a problem, but it is. And the interesting thing there is actually a high correlation between people who are very trusting and that consider themselves emotionally intelligent and intuitive. And the reason why is you are told that you are very good at reading people, that you can pick up on signals. So if you're someone that says, oh, I have very strong intuition about people.

这种感觉我从小就有。书里写的那个故事，我想每个人都有起源故事，而我的故事是关于一个保姆，后来发现她是毒贩，还开着我们家那辆沃尔沃当了抢劫案的逃逸车。

And that's something I felt from a really young age. And the story I tell in the book, I guess everyone has an origin story, and mine is around a nanny that turned out to be a drug dealer that used our family's car, our Volvo, nonetheless, as a getaway car and an armed robbery.

天啊。这简直是个真实犯罪版的信任起源故事呢。真实犯罪。

Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like a very, like, true crime trust origin story there. True crime.

这个故事最疯狂的地方在于，她和我们一起生活了一年。她不是刚搬进来就在八周内做出这些事的。而且她曾是个非常棒的保姆。我对她的记忆是她会陪我们玩耍，非常细心周到。

The thing that's crazy about the story is that she lived with us for a year. It wasn't like she moved in and she did this in in eight weeks. And she was this incredible nanny. Like, my memories of her were that she played with us. She was very attentive.

她厨艺精湛，性格平和，但我的父母逐渐发现她过着完全不同的另一种生活。

She was a really good cook. She was very peaceful, but she had a complete other life that my parents discovered over time.

所以我相信回顾过去，这个保姆肯定有些危险信号，可能会让你质疑对她的信任程度。当你回想时，这个情境中有哪些警示信号，可以推广到其他让我们怀疑是否过度信任他人的情况？

So I'm sure that looking back, there must have been some red flags about this nanny that you maybe would have questioned the extent to which you would have trusted her. As you look back, what are some red flags in this situation that you've kind of generalized to other situations in which we might wonder whether we're trusting somebody too much?

我认为作为孩子能察觉到危险信号，但后来我父母讲述这个故事时才明白。他们意识到雇佣她时，两人都是创业者，正处于创业和频繁出差的高压阶段。在压力下做信任决策——比如决定把孩子托付给谁——这种高风险决策往往会导致错误判断，因为你愿意相信那个人。这是第一个教训。

I think there's the red flags as a child, but now my parents have told the story. They realized that when they hired her, they're both entrepreneurs and they were in a very intense time of building their companies and traveling a lot. So making trust decisions when you're under pressure is high stakes trust decisions like who to leave your children with often leads to bad decision making because you want to believe that person. So that's the first lesson.

这个教训我必须说极其重要。对吧？我觉得在很多情况下，仅仅因为信任某人很方便，你就会想'我现在甚至没法质疑这个，因为必须让事情运转下去'，于是假设一切都会顺利。这完全能解释为何类似情况会在众多领域发生。

And that one I have to say is, like, so important. Right? I feel like there's so many situations in which just, like, the convenience of being able to trust somebody just like you're like, I I can't even question this right now because I just, like, have to make this work. So I'm just gonna assume everything's gonna be fine. You could totally see how that plays out in so many different domains.

职场中这种情况最常见。对吧？就像总拖到最后一刻。而且'便利性'——无意双关——常常胜过信任考量。我们往往会因便利而轻易交出信任。

Most high is at work. Right? Like, it's just left too late. And convenience, no pun intended, often trumps trust. So we'll often give our trust away if it is convenient.

这是个真实的人生教训。第二点是，当我问父母时——因为当时没有电子邮件、视频通话或社交网络——我说'你们为什么相信这个人？'

That is a real life lesson. The second thing is, I think, the way when I asked them, like because there was no email. There was no video calling. There was no social networks at the time. You know, why did you believe this person?

他们说这是因为她带着苏格兰口音。她还说她甚至穿着救世军制服来上班，因为她真的很喜欢帮助别人，而且她会弹钢琴和手鼓。这些都是关于谁值得信赖的刻板印象。口音在这方面影响很大。所以这成了我人生的一课——当我遇到某人时，我在关注哪些信号？

And they said it was things like she had a Scottish accent. And she said that she even came to work wearing a a Salvation Army uniform because she said she really liked helping people and that she played the piano and the tambourine. So it's all these stereotypes of of who is trustworthy. Accents are a really big influence on that. So that's been a life lesson in when I'm meeting someone, what signals am I tuning into?

许多信号实际上迎合了我们的偏见。我们会寻找熟悉或符合那种刻板印象的人。这是第二点。第三点是倾听你的孩子，因为我知道他们在被欺骗。我注意到家里有东西不见了。

And so many signals really play to our biases. So we will look for people that are familiar or fit that kind of stereotype. So that's number two. Number three is listen to your children because I knew they were being lied to. And I noticed things going missing around the house.

我注意到每周三我们会去一个奇怪的公寓，那里有个陌生男人。有些事情就是不对劲。我会告诉妈妈，这些人来说些奇怪的事，然后我会被责备不要编故事。所以要信任孩子，因为他们观察力很强，而且通常不像成年人那样有目的性。我会更重视他们的反馈。

I noticed on Wednesdays, we'd go to this strange flat, and there was a strange man. And there was something that just didn't add up. And I would say to mom, these people come around and they talk about strange things, and I would get told off not to make things up. So trust children because they are really observant, and they often don't have an agenda in the same way that adults do. So I'd listen to that feedback more.

看起来你也需要稍微换个角度思考，比如获得一个真正的外部视角，保持一定距离的视角。有时候这个视角可以来自你的孩子，但我打赌有时候也可以是另一个不在你这种紧张处境中的人，可能没注意到你觉得这个人很酷的那些细节，比如他们穿的救世军制服等等。似乎当我们相信直觉而不听取外部意见时，往往就会在信任问题上陷入麻烦。研究支持这一点吗？

It also seems like you just need to perspective take a little bit, like, get a really outside perspective, a bit of a distance perspective. Sometimes you can be that can be your child, but I bet sometimes that can just be, like, another person who might not be in the tight situation you are, might not have noticed, like, the same things that you're noticing about how cool this person is and this Salvation Army, you know, you know, uniform they're wearing and so on. It seems like we often get into trouble when we trust our gut and don't take outside input when it comes to trust. Is that is does the research bear that out?

完全支持。他们说信任有两个敌人：不良品格和不足的信息。当我们要么没有放慢速度获取足够信息，要么如你所说劳里，没有获得不同视角时就会出问题。我敢肯定如果妈妈的朋友听说她在公园树下发现这么多钱——就像传说中的摇钱树——肯定会有人说这根本不可能存在。

Totally. I mean, they say trust has two enemies, bad character and poor information. And it's when we either don't slow down to get enough information, or as you say, Laurie, we don't get a different perspective. And I'm sure one of mom's friends, when she said that she just found all this money under a tree in a park, like the money tree that someone would have said, nothing knows exist.

听起来很可疑。

That sounds sketchy.

确实有点可疑。是的。

It sounds a little sketchy. Yeah.

好的。那么我们来梳理一下那些真正可能成为信任良好指标的事物，就像你所说的这些所谓的可信赖特质。你能为我们详细解析一下吗？

Yeah. So let's walk through the things that really maybe are good indicators of trust, like these sort of so called traits of trustworthiness as you talk about them. Can you break these down for us?

可以。不过我要说明，我认为其中有些特质需要更新。这是基于已追踪这些特质四十年的社会科学研究，而这些特质正在变化，我觉得这非常有趣。能力方面，你可以想象成两部分：能力，这关乎你做什么；然后是品格，这关乎你为何做这些事，但更重要的是你如何行事。

Yes. So and I'm gonna say I think some of them need updating. So this is based on social science that now has been tracking traits for forty years, and these traits are changing, which I think is really interesting. The capability side, so you have imagined two parts. You have capability, which is really about what you do, and then you have character, which is why you do things, but really importantly, how you do things.

那么劳里，你会如何描述你所做的事情？

So how would you describe, Laurie, what you do?

我会说我是一名播客主播，也是一名教师。你知道，我努力真正为学生付出，试图以非常专业的方式运用证据。我有很多让我显得有能力的东西，但或许我也是个温暖的人。

I would say that I'm a podcaster. I'm a teacher. You know, I try to be really there for my students. I try to use evidence in a really capable way. Like, I have lots of things that make me capable, but also maybe I'm like a warm person.

对吧？我想照顾好我的学生，帮助我的听众等等。

Right? I wanna take care of my students and help my listeners and so on.

这里你谈到了能力和品格。能力，你可以理解为你的胜任力——你拥有技能、专业知识和经验。

So there you're talking about capability and character. So the capability, if you imagine, is your competence. So you have the skills. You have the expertise. You have the knowledge.

你拥有资源，有耶鲁这样的机构支持，所有这些让你能兑现承诺。所以你在这些方面确实可信。但可能还有其他因素。

You have the resources. You have Yale as an institution. You have all these things that allow you to do what you say you're gonna do. So you're really credible on those things. But maybe there's some other things.

我不知道。有什么事情是你完全做不来的，比如你特别不擅长的？

I don't know. What's something you completely can't do, like you're terrible at?

天啊，太多了。开车——我也不会开车。骑自行车。

Oh my god. So many things. Driving. I can't drive either. Biking.

骑自行车——我真的很差劲，我根本不会骑。大多数体力活动我都很笨拙，经常摔倒。滑雪也不行。是的。

Biking. I'm really bad, but I I don't know how to bike. Most physical things, I'm very clumsy, fall a lot. Skiing, not great. Yeah.

这反而让你更值得信赖，因为你能诚实地面对自己的不足，并且能坦然地说‘千万别坐我开的车’或‘别跟我一起骑车’。这就是你的自信。你谈到想始终如一地支持学生，我想你是那种希望他们知道可以依赖你的人。这就是可靠性特质，在建立信任时至关重要。你知道有些人反复无常，时而热情高涨出现，时而又完全消失。

That actually makes you more trustworthy because you can be honest about things that you do, and then you're really comfortable saying, don't ever get in a car with me or don't ride with me. So that's your confidence. What you're talking about with your with your students, wanting to be there for them consistently, I'd imagine that you're this person that likes them to know that they can depend on you. That's the reliability trait, and that is really, really important when it comes to trust. So you know those, like, really inconsistent people that are high energy and they show up sometimes and then they completely disappear.

他们缺乏持续性。这属于能力层面的问题。而在品格层面，还有你提到的同理心。我更喜欢用‘同情心’这个词，因为同理心并未涵盖行动层面的持续跟进。

There's no follow through. So that sits on the capability side. And then on the character side, we have empathy, which you spoke about. I prefer the word compassion. You know, empathy doesn't really talk about the action side, the follow through.

最后也是最重要的特质是正直。这意味着你的利益与他人的最佳利益保持一致。作为教授，你的利益与学生一致；作为主持人，观众能感受到这不是自私的行为，而是你慷慨关怀他们及其学习的体现。这就是我们谈论可信度时的核心。

And then the last trait, which I think is the most important trait, is integrity. And that's all about your interests being aligned with the best interests of other people. So you, the professor, your interests are aligned with the interests of the students. You, the host, the audience feels that this isn't self serving, that you are there to be generous and to care about them and their learning. So that's what we talk about when we talk about trustworthiness.

我猜想在这些不同的信任维度中，能力（即专业性与可靠性的结合）与品格（即同情心与正直的结合）的重要性会因需求而变化对吧？比如对外科医生，我可能不需要他多有品格，只希望他非常专业能干；但对挚友，我不在乎她工作表现，却希望她在帮我解决问题时极具同理心。

And I imagine that in these different domains of trust, the importance of, say, a capability, this kind of combination of competence and reliability versus character, this combination of compassion and integrity, that might go up and down depending on what you need. Right? Like, I might not need a a surgeon filled with a lot of character. I just really want him to be very competent and capable. But a best friend, I re might really you know, I don't necessarily care that my best friend does her job, but I really want her to be really empathic when it comes to, you know, helping me with my problems and so on.

这确实非常重要，归根结底在于情境。这个观点尤为关键，因为不知你是否听说——我父亲前几天就提到，他正在接受髋部治疗，却感觉那位外科医生根本不在乎。我说：但他技术很棒对吧？能治好髋关节就行。我认为在这个情感主导的社会里，人们有时会过度强调同情心和共情能力，反而可能忽略专业能力——一个人可以表现得无比友善却缺乏真才实学。

It's a really important it comes back to context, and it's such an important point because I don't know if you've heard actually, my dad said it the other day. He's he's having something done to his hip, and he's, I really don't feel like the surgeon cares. I was like, Yeah, but he's a great surgeon, right? Like, he's gonna fix the hip. And I think that has become an expectation on sort of a feeling led society is that sometimes we can place too much emphasis on compassion and empathy, and that person can seem incredibly kind but not capable.

正因如此，我认为这种特质融合与情境考量就像指南针，能帮助我们做出更精准的人际判断。

So this is why I think this alchemy of traits and thinking about the particular situation is it's almost like a compass for making really good decisions about people.

那么当人们初次接触新外科医生、新商业伙伴或新约会对象时，若想确保自己的信任投放得当，你会建议采用哪些具体策略？

And so if you're a person who's maybe meeting a new surgeon for the first time or a new business partner or a new love interest and you really wanna kinda make sure you're trusting appropriately, what are some strategies you'd use to do that?

商业场景可能是最简单的，却也最容易出错——因为多数人首先关注专业能力。想想大多数求职面试或晋升考核：『说说你的经历』『介绍你的成就』，这些简历或背调就能获取的信息。但有多少面试会深入探究『动机』和『方法论』呢？

Well, I think the business situation is probably the easiest, and it's also where most people go wrong because most people start with the competence piece. If you think about most job interviews or promotional interviews, like, so tell me what you've done. Tell me about your experience. Like, they are the easiest things to get from a resume or a reference check. And the number of interviews that don't get to the why and the how.

方法论特别有意思——人们如何拆解问题？如何处理艰难对话？我会围绕这些设计问题。其次要真正理解对方的利益点、意图和动机，不是泛泛问『为什么应聘』，而是深挖真实诉求。同时不断自问：这些特质与岗位匹配吗？

The how is really interesting, like how people approach things, how they break down problems, how they are in difficult conversations. So I would like focus questions around that. The second thing that I would do is really try to understand someone's interests, intentions, and motives. Not like why do you want the job, but where are they really coming from? And again, asking yourself this question of does that align with the role?

与组织价值观契合吗？因为职业或情感关系中的信任危机，往往源于这种根本性错位。虽然这么说可能不太恰当——就像约会时，若一方坚决不要孩子而另一方渴望育儿，或有人抗拒同居，这种底层诉求的不匹配才是问题根源。

Does that align with the organization? Because it's when you have that misalignment in a professional or a personal context that trust issues can arise. So you can even think of a bit uncomfortable saying this, but like in dating situations, like if someone really doesn't want children and the other person wants children, right? There's a misalignment there. If someone doesn't want a long term relationship, someone doesn't want to live with you.

初次见面当然不适合深挖这些，会吓跑对方。但若长期感到信任危机，往往意味着双方都在回避核心矛盾——『我想要这个，你却想要那个』，谁都不敢挑明。

It's that misalignment that really is the problem. Now, you're not going to get there on the first date. It'll probably scare someone away. But over time, if you feel like there's trust issues emerging, there's probably some unsaid conversation around, I want this one thing and you want this other thing, and we're both too scared to say it.

那么我们该如何克服之前讨论的那些偏见呢？有没有什么方法能让我们获得那种视角，也许能避免陷入熟悉感或其他我们提到的偏见中？

And then how do we overcome the kind of biases that we talked about earlier? Is there anything we can do to kind of get that perspective, maybe not fall for familiarity in some of the other biases we talked about?

这太难了。如果有人能想出解决办法，请告诉我。但我觉得答案其实很明显——就是意识到这些偏见的存在。对你而言，熟悉感的表现形式是什么？

It's so hard. I mean, if someone can come up with a solution around that, then tell me. But I think it I mean, it's really obvious advice. It's it's becoming aware of what those biases are. For you, what does familiarity look like?

有哪些信号？这对不同人来说是不同的。有些人非常受外表和形象影响，有些人则深受文化背景和口音影响，还有些人特别看重教育背景。

What are the signals? And that's different for different people. So some people are very influenced by looks and appearance. Other people are really influenced by cultural background and accents. Other people are really influenced by education.

一个调整的方法是：初次见面时你会关注什么？会注意对方的穿着吗？会留意他们说话的内容吗？对话的导向又是怎样的？

A way of sort of tuning into this is when you meet people for the first time. Where do you sort of focus? Do you notice what someone's wearing? Do you notice what they're saying? Where does the conversation orientate itself as well?

这些都是强有力的信号，能揭示对你重要的东西——可能正是你偏见的根源所在。

Like, these are really powerful signals as to what is important to you that may be where your biases are rooted.

你还建议做一件事——我们在幸福实验室经常讨论的——就是暂停一下，深呼吸。你所说的'信任暂停'在这里能起到什么作用呢？

You've also suggested doing something that we talk about a lot on the happiness lab, which is, like, take a pause, take a breath. How can taking what you've called a trust pause be helpful here?

所谓信任暂停，是我为自己发明的方法。

So a trust pause, it's something I invented for myself.

所有研究都是研究。对吧？

All research is research. Right?

我习惯快速行动、快速做事、快速思考、快速说话。后来我意识到在某些情况下，放慢脚步，真正问问自己：这个人、这条信息、这个情境、这段合作关系，是否真的值得我信任？这其实是在珍视你拥有的信任——你有给予信任的权利，但不必对每个人都给予。我发现这非常 empowering（赋能），因为在某些情况下你会想：知道吗？我要稍微保留一点。这不是防御机制。

I tend to move quickly, do things quickly, think quickly, speak quickly. And I just realized there were certain situations where slowing down and really asking myself, you know, was this person, this piece of information, this situation, this partnership, did they actually deserve my trust? And it's really placing value on your trust that you have trust to give, and you don't have to give it to everyone. I found that to be quite empowering because in certain situations you go, you know what? I'm gonna just hold back a little bit, or it's not like protection mechanism.

只是表明：我认为此刻还不想给予你我的信任。你可以把这个概念放到网络信息场景里想想——比如当你没读完就转发某条内容时，就需要一个‘信任暂停’。

It's just saying, I don't think I wanna give you my trust at this particular moment. And you can think about that even in the context of, like, online information. Right? Like, when you just share something without reading it, that would benefit from a trust pause.

目前我们讨论了过度信任或过早信任的情况。但稍后回来时，我们将探讨信任与幸福关系的另一个问题：信任不足。《幸福实验室》稍后继续。什么是美好生活？是幸福、目标、爱情、健康还是财富？

So far, we've talked about cases where we trust a little bit too much or a little bit too early. But when we get back from the break, we're going to discuss the other problem when it comes to trust and happiness, trusting too little. The Happiness Lab will be right back. What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth?

在追求完满人生的过程中，什么才是真正重要的？这是获奖作家、创始人和访谈人乔纳森·菲尔德在其顶级播客《美好生活计划》中向嘉宾提出的问题。每周，乔纳森都会与知名思想家和实践者对话，如亚当·格兰特、格雷琴·鲁宾、安吉拉·达克沃斯等数百位人物。立即收听，在您喜爱的播客平台搜索《美好生活计划》。

What really matters in the pursuit of a well lived life? These are the questions award winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the top ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with renowned thinkers and doers, people like Adam Grant, Gretchen Rubin, Angela Duckworth, and hundreds more. Start listening now. Look for Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app.

《如何信任与被信任》作者雷切尔·波茨曼是信任科学专家。但我好奇她对反面的看法——什么是不信任？

Rachel Botsman, author of How to Trust and Be Trusted, is an expert on the science of trust. But I was curious how she thinks about the opposite. What is distrust?

首先我要说，低信任与不信任存在区别，这很关键。低信任可能只是信息不足，比如你刚接触某个情境或关系，这不一定是坏事。这也是我讨厌许多问卷调查的原因——如果你试图永远保持高信任状态，会非常疲惫，对吧？

Oh, so the first thing I'd say is there's a difference between low trust and distrust, and that's really important to understand. So low trust can just be you don't have enough information, like you're new to situation or a relationship. It's not necessarily a bad thing. And also, this is why I hate a lot of polls and surveys. If you try to live your whole life in a high trust state, it'll be pretty exhausting, right?

比如，有些事情确实不需要高度的信任。这是我首先要说的。不信任很难定义，我至今还没找到或看到一个让我满意的定义。但我认为不信任更多是通过行为表现的视角来理解的。

Like, there's some things that just don't require a high degree of trust. So that's the first thing that I would say. Distrust, it's very difficult to define. I have not yet come up or seen a definition that I really like. But the way I think of distrust is more through the lens of behaviors.

因此，我觉得用这三个'D'来思考很有帮助。当一个人不信任时，你会看到这种防御性逐渐显现。这种防御性是因为你让自己变得脆弱，或者暴露了某些有价值的东西，某种程度上觉得被利用或未被妥善对待，所以第一反应就是对此非常防备。

So I find it helpful to think of these three Ds. So when someone is distrusting, you tend to see this spectrum play out where you see a defensiveness set in. And that defensiveness is because you have made yourself vulnerable or you've played something of value. And in some ways, feel that's being exploited or it's not being taken care of. And so the first instinct is to be quite defensive about that.

在不信任的这个阶段，你仍然可以修复局面，因为对方还在乎。第二阶段是疏离。疏离是你开始抽身的阶段。你可能在工作中经历过这种情况，比如你不确定是否信任某个人、某种情况或某个上司，所以你选择后退。

Now, the thing about that stage of distrust is you can still fix the situation because the person cares. The second phase is disengagement. Disengagement is when you start to pull back. So you might have experienced this at work where you're like, I'm not really sure I trust this person or this situation or this boss. So I'm just going to pull back.

我不确定自己是否真的会投入或在意。最后一个阶段极其危险，我认为这也是我们今天在社会中讨论不信任的方式，那就是幻灭。幻灭意味着你开始反对那个人、那个组织或那个系统，陷入恶性循环，因为你唯一的动机就是摧毁它。你变得对立，开始对抗。

I'm not sure I'm going to really show up or really care. And then the last phase, which is incredibly dangerous, and I think it's how we talk about distrust in society today, is disenchantment. And disenchantment means you have turned against that person, that organization, that system, and you're in a downward spiral because your only motive is to bring that thing down. You've become anti. You are pushing against.

这种情况之所以危险，是因为它可能吞噬你自己和他人，变得非常有害。你可以在运动队中看到这种情况，当有人反对教练时；在工作场所中，当有人希望所有人都离开时；在社会更广泛的层面，当人们想要反对某个政党时。这就是我理解的不信任经历的三个阶段。

And the reason why this is so dangerous is because it can become all consuming for yourself, for others, and very, very toxic. So you see this in sports teams when someone turns against the coach. You'd see it in workplaces where they want everyone to leave. We see it wider in society where you wanna turn against a party. That's how I tend to think of distrust is is moving through these three phases.

你提到了社会，尤其是政治。似乎这种幻灭的想法正在蔓延，至少我们从新闻中经常听到这样的说法。但我知道你对这种观点有些保留，认为信任的这种自由落体式下降可能没有我们想象的那么严重。请解释一下为什么是这样。

And you mentioned sort of society, especially politics. It seems like this idea of disenchantment is running rampant. At least that's what we hear a lot from the news. But I know this is an idea that you've pushed back against a little bit that, like, the this kind of the freefall of trust might not be as bad as we think. Explain why that's the case.

是的。我觉得听新闻很困难，原因有很多，但往往是因为所有事情都被描述为在自由落体，包括信任。你会看到那些图表，显示一条直线下降的线，大约从2020年开始，就像悬崖式下跌。实际上，这涵盖了制度信任、社会信任和人际信任的各个方面。

Yeah. I mean, I find it really difficult to listen to news for so many reasons, but it's often because everything is described in freefall, including trust. So you'll see these graphs where it's just like this downward line. And from about 2020, it's like falling off a cliff. That's across the spectrum, actually, the institutional, the social and the interpersonal trust.

对我来说，这存在问题，因为我认为信任更像能量，它不会被摧毁，而是改变形态。所以在你看来可能是低信任或不信任的表现，实际上只是他人以不同方式在信任。一旦明白这点，许多现象就能解释，也能减少许多主观评判。这种情形不仅存在于政党之间，代际间也是如此——人们常说Z世代或α世代‘不再信任任何事物’了。

To me, that is problematic because the way I think of trust is more like energy, that it's not getting destroyed, it's changing form. And so what might look like low trust or distrust to you is just someone trusting differently. And once you see this, it explains so many things and it stops so much judgment. So it doesn't even have to be between political parties. You see it within generations where people will say, well, that Gen Z or Gen Alpha, they just don't trust anymore.

事实并非如此。他们的信任发生了横向转移：他们信任同龄人、朋友和网络红人，因为这些才是他们的信息来源。他们不再向上信任。因此，理解信任的流向而非总量，对把握人际关系动态乃至更大的范式转变至关重要。

That is not true. Their trust is sideways. Like, they trust their peers and friends and influencers because that's where they get their information. They don't trust upwards. So thinking of flows of trust versus amounts of trust can be really helpful in understanding dynamics and relationships and then bigger paradigm shifts happening.

这种更大的范式转变似乎体现在信任的‘分布式’特征上（请原谅这个不够准确的表述）。你提到的Z世代和α世代信任网红、社交媒体内容的现象，在您的信任研究中是否也构成了文化层面的转变？

It seems like one of those bigger paradigm shifts is kind of the trust that we have that, some sense, for lack of better words, kind of distributed. Right? You mentioned kind of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, like, you know, trusting influencers, trusting what they read on social media. Is that a cultural shift that you're seeing in this trust research too?

是的，影响极其深远。如果我们把信任的演变可视化，最初是制度性信任——完全自上而下的等级制、中心化体系，由固定边界定义。就像我们过去读报纸、

Yes. It's it's huge. So what we see is like, if you imagine like an evolution of trust, we had institutional trust. So everything was very top down and hierarchical and centralized and defined by fixed boundaries. So we used to get a newspaper.

看电视的时代，那就是制度性信任。而技术本质上打破了这种模式，通过网络、市场、平台乃至现在的人工智能实现了信任的分布式传播。最直观的理解方式是：持续数十年的向上信任流，如今已转为横向分布。这对各个领域产生深远影响——我们认定谁可信赖，谁左右我们的观点信念，在健康、政治、教育、人生决策、养生等方面采取何种行动，

We'd turn on the TV. That's institutional trust. And technology inherently blew that up and distributed it through networks and marketplaces and platforms and now through artificial intelligence. So the easiest way to understand this is imagine a trust that for decades flowed upwards and now is distributed sideways. And this has so much influence over so many things because who we believe is trustworthy, who influences our opinions and beliefs, what we decide to act on in the context of health, politics, education, life decisions, wellness.

所有这些都在横向流动。有时传播这些信息的人本身并不可靠。其实在幸福学领域就能观察到这种现象——那些网红博主通常呈现独处状态：独自醒来、冥想、喝咖啡、拉伸、跑步...你明白我的意思吗？

This is all moving sideways. And sometimes the people sharing that information are not the most trustworthy. I mean, just if actually you see this in a happiness space that, you know, it really bothers me. Like, when I see influencers online, they're usually alone. Like, do you know what I mean?

他们展现的生活场景始终是孤身一人。

Like, they wake up alone, They meditate. They have their coffee. They stretch. They run alone. Right?

你知道，他们独自工作。只是那种幸福形象真的让我很困扰。

You know, they work alone. Just really bothers me that that's the image of happiness.

我认为我们正陷入你之前谈到的许多偏见中，关于过度信任的问题。对吧？比如，许多这些影响者拥有他们进入的漂亮房子，而且他们往往非常美丽。对吧？我们正陷入这些熟悉感的套路中，也许还有我们喜欢的一些事物和光环效应，这种效应让我们喜欢那些其他方面也顺遂的人。

And I think we're falling prey to a lot of the biases that you talked about earlier about trusting too much. Right? Like, many of these influencers have, you know, this beautiful home that they go into, and they tend to be really beautiful. Right? Like, we're falling for these tropes of, like, familiarity and maybe that some of the things we like and a halo effect, this effect where we kind of like people who have other good things happening to them.

确实，我们正在将信任分散，最终可能陷入与你之前在人际信任领域中提到的同样多的偏见。

Like, it is true that, like, we're putting putting our trust this distributed trust winds up maybe falling prey to as many of those same biases as you just talked about in the interpersonal trust domain earlier.

是的。而且这些都是片段和碎片，经过精心策划的形象。我了解这些，去年我开始跑步，结果深陷其中。然后我意识到，没有人跑步时看起来像那样。跑10英里时没人看起来像那样。

Yeah. And it's in sound bites and fragments and very carefully curated images. And I know this stuff and I started running last year and I fell down this rabbit hole so hard. And then I realized no one looks like that when they run. No one looks like that at 10 miles.

对吧？因为我会想，为什么我这么痛苦、汗流浃背、狼狈不堪？而他们都头发飘逸什么的。你会想，因为他们靠我赚钱，你知道吗？你刚刚让我想到了一些我之前没想到的事情。

Right? Like, because I'd be like, why am I in so much pain and sweaty and disgusting? And they're all like, you know, hair swaying and stuff. You're like, because they're making money off me, you know? And you've just made me think of something that I hadn't thought of.

但如果你想想你对影响者的信任，就像滚动浏览的行为，这是一种单向的事情，对吧？它不会回流给你。而健康的信任很大程度上是互惠的。所以我为你做某事，然后为你创造空间为我做某事。这些循环才是形成信任的东西。

But if you think about the trust you place in influencers, like just a scrolling behavior, it's a one way thing, right? It doesn't flow back to you. And so much of healthy trust is reciprocation. So I do something for you, which then creates a space for you to do something for me. And those loops are what form trust.

这些单向的信任形式，我们不要称之为浅薄的信任，这些单向的信任形式，它们打破了那些循环，那些互惠的可能性，这正在破坏社会粘合剂，我想这正在影响我们的幸福感和满足感。如果有研究与此相关，我会很感兴趣。

These one way forms of trust, let's not call them shallow trust, these one way forms of trust, they're breaking those loops, those possibilities for reciprocation, and that's damaging the social glue, which I'd imagine is impacting our happiness and satisfaction. I'd be interested if the research correlates to that.

这就是我们对这些分布式网络——比如那些影响者之类——所抱有的过度信任。正如你提到的，与此同时，人们对机构的信任确实在下降，无论是政府还是像我所在的学术机构等等。《世界幸福报告》正是研究了这类现象。报告中关于信任的章节试图解开这个谜团：为什么会出现这么多反体制的投票行为，比如支持那些想要缩小政府规模或废除政府的候选人，这些候选人代表的正是反建制的观点。

So that's kind of the overtrust we put in these distributed networks, you know, to these influencers and things like that. And and that's, as you mentioned, happening alongside a real kind of emergence of distrust for institutions, whether that's, you know, governments or academic institutions like the one I'm at and so on. And this was the kind of thing that the World Happiness Report was really looking at. Right? The chapter of the World Happiness Report that's on trust is trying to look at this puzzle about why there have been so many, kind of voting behaviors that have shifted kind of more anti institutional, right, for candidates that maybe want smaller government or kinda wanna do away with government, you know, kind of candidates that really represent these sort of views that are kinda anti establishment.

请详细说说这一章节的发现，以及信任如何在这些投票行为的转变中起到关键作用。

Walk me through some of the things that this chapter found and and how trust was really important for some of these changes in voting behavior.

这份报告非常有趣，但我并不完全认同其框架。从最高层面看，它基本上是说极左翼有高信任度和更高的生活满意度，而极右翼则是低信任度和更低的生活满意度。这种顶层框架对我来说是有问题的，原因之一是他们声称当处于低信任状态时，人们往往会持反对立场。

The report is really interesting. I don't agree with all of the framing. Sort of at the highest level, it's basically saying the far left have high trust and higher life satisfaction, and the far right have low trust and lower life satisfaction. That's like top level, which is a problematic framing for me. And one of the reasons why is they're saying that when you're in a low trust state, you tend to be anti.

你会把精力投入到反对现状、打破体系上。而高信任状态下，你会更倾向于进步。报告真正有趣的地方在于深入挖掘后——我发现如果坚持这种极左与极右的二分法，极右翼对陌生人信任度更低，但对私人圈子的信任度却高得多。

You invest your energy in pushing it against things, the status quo. You wanna break down the system. And when you are high trust, you are four, so you're more progressive. Where the report gets really interesting is when you dig further down. So what I found interesting is that if you stick with this far left and this far right dichotomy, the far right had higher distrust in strangers, but much higher trust in their private circles.

紧密的家庭、朋友、同事关系，社会信任纽带非常牢固。而在左翼这边，实际上显示出更低的人际信任度，更高的孤独感和疏离迹象。我认为这非常有意思。本质上，报告说的是社会结构在双方都受到了损害。

Close knit family, friends, work colleagues, really high bonds of social trust. And then on the left hand side, there are actually signs of lower interpersonal trust, higher signs of loneliness and disengagement. And that, I think, is really interesting. Essentially, what the report is saying is that the social fabric is damaged for both sides.

是的，双方都受损了，而且是以不同的方式受损，这可能导致人们很难看到对方的立场。因为政治光谱不同侧的人对信任的理解不同，这或许就是导致人们长期对政府职能期望出现脱节的原因。

Yeah. And damaged sides. And damaged in different ways that might lead to the fact that it's very hard to see across the aisle. Right? Because people are thinking about trust in different ways across different sides of the political spectrum, which is maybe what's leading to a disconnect in what people want governments to be doing over time.

正是如此。所以高信任与低信任的概念本身就是问题——因为双方都有高信任，只是对象不同。并非缺乏信任，而是信任方式不同。我们看到的是，当生活中某个领域的信任被抽离时，就会形成真空。

Exactly. And so this idea of high trust and low trust, that's the problem because both sides have high trust but in different things. It's not that they lack trust. They just trust differently. And this is what we see is that when you take trust away from one area of our lives, it creates a vacuum.

而这个真空必须被某种东西填补。可能是不同的信仰，也可能是阴谋论，但你必须填补这个空白。但我认为坚持这样一种观点：社会结构已经受损，导致信任问题和幸福问题的根源在于双方的不安全感和孤独感。正是这两者的结合，正在引发一场信任重构。

And that vacuum has to be filled with something. And that could be different beliefs. It could be conspiracy theories, but you have to fill that void. But I think holding on to this idea that the social fabric is damaged and that the root causes of that that are driving trust issues and problems of happiness are insecurity and loneliness on both sides. It's those two things that are merging together to really cause a sort of reconfiguration of trust.

那么，我们千疮百孔的社会结构还有修复的希望吗？如果有，我们该如何创造一个彼此信任、信任制度的未来？稍后幸福实验室回归时我们将探讨这个问题。良好的沟通在生活和职场中都至关重要。我的朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《快速思考，聪明说话》能帮助你提升这项技能。

So is there any hope that our tattered social fabric can be repaired? And if so, how can we go about creating a future where we trust each other and our institutions? We'll look at that when the happiness lab returns in a moment. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that.

每周马特都会与包括我在内的专家对谈，分享基于研究的实用技巧，比如如何深入对话、成为更好的倾听者，以及如何在冲突中清晰表达。本月播客推出了与科技工具创作者的迷你系列，教你用他们的工具提升职业沟通与生活质量。若你准备升级沟通能力，每周二可在任意播客平台收听，更多提升内容请访问fastersmarter.io。瑞秋·波茨曼在她的有声书《如何信任与被信任》中提出了许多增进信任的建议，其中一个有趣的概念叫'信任飞跃'。

Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a miniseries with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io. In her audiobook, how to trust and be trusted, Rachel Botsman has lots of great suggestions for increasing trust in our lives. One interesting concept is what she calls a trust leap.

所谓信任飞跃，就是当你冒险尝试新事物或改变行事方式时。人们谈到信任飞跃常想到大事——乘坐自动驾驶汽车或购买比特币这类涉及新技术的行为。这确实是信任飞跃，是我们改变行为的方式。但信任飞跃在生活中也可以相对微小。

So a trust leap is whenever you take a risk to do something new or to do something differently. Now when you talk about trust leads, people often think about big things, getting in a self driving car or buying Bitcoin that involves, like, a new technology. And that is a trust leap. That is how we change behavior. But trust leaps can also be relatively small in our lives.

比如主动举手承担全新工作方式，或在会议中大胆发言。我发现关于信任飞跃的一个问题是：人们首先关注结果，盯着飞跃的终点，想象着宏大的跨越，而非通过持续微小的新尝试来探索可能性。这就是信任飞跃的核心概念。

So it can be choosing to put your hand up at work to do something completely differently. It can be choosing to speak up in a meeting. And one of the problems I've actually seen around trust leaps is that, first of all, people focus on the outcome. So they focus on where they want the leap to go, and they imagine these leaps being really, really big versus small, consistent ways of doing something new or doing something differently and seeing where that takes us. So that is the concept of trust leaps.

我大概能猜到答案——是什么阻碍人们进行这些信任飞跃？部分原因是否源于人们倾向于假设飞跃会以某种形式失败？

So I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but what are some of the things that prevent people from making these trust leaps? It seems like part of it maybe is a a bias to assume the trust leap is gonna go badly in some form.

你说'失败'很有意思，因为我们往往连评估风险都做不到。想象信任飞跃需要离开安全熟悉的舒适区——如你所知劳瑞，这是我们本能向往的状态——迈向未知才能发现新事物。但对大多数人来说，离开安全区实在太难，以至于从未真正迈出第一步。我们甚至没到评估风险的阶段。

It's interesting you say badly because we often don't even get that far. Because if you imagine a trust leap involves going from the known and the safe and the familiar, and that's, as you know, Laurie, where we all love to be, like, what we're wired to be. And it involves, like, going to the unknown because that's when we discover new things. Most of us, it's so hard to move from that place that is safe and familiar that we never even really take the first leap. So it's not that we are assessing risk.

我们并非在担忧可能会发生的坏事。问题往往在于如何迈出第一步并分解这个跨越的过程。

We're not thinking about, oh, these bad things could happen. It's often just the getting started and breaking the leap down that is the problem.

我特别喜欢这个观点，因为它本质上是在认识到——走出舒适区对我们许多人来说都是一种信任的跨越。对吧？就像拥抱未知，并相信自己无论如何结果都会好，即便事情没有完全按计划发展。

I love this idea because it's really about, like, recognizing that getting out of your comfort zone, which we so many of us struggle with is in some ways a trust leap. Right? It's like embracing the unknown and kind of trusting yourself that it's gonna be fine no matter how it turns out even if it doesn't go perfectly as planned.

没错。而且我觉得，你说不喜欢骑自行车，我也特别讨厌骑车，那会让我充满恐惧。我不喜欢在边缘滑雪，因为我害怕悬崖。

Yeah. And I think, you know, you said you don't like being on a bike. I hate being on a bike. It fills me with dread. I don't like skiing on the edges of things because I don't like ledges.

对吧？我们常常发现难以进行信任跨越的地方往往与风险相关。有些风险，比如身体风险，对我来说真的很难克服。就像我在海里游泳时——我丈夫是澳大利亚人，我们去澳洲时——我特别怕鲨鱼，但三厘米深的水里怎么可能有鲨鱼呢？

Right? So often where we find it hard to take trust leaps is associated with risks. So there are some risks, like physical risks, that are really hard for me to take. Like when I swim in the ocean, my husband's Australian, and we go to Australia, I'm so afraid of the sharks, but no sharks gonna come in three centimeters of water. Right?

但那些信任跨越确实非常非常困难，而创造性的信任跨越对我来说却很容易。这是完全不同的风险类型。理解这一点很重要，我在书里也讨论过，因为我相信它能帮你认清自己卡在哪里、哪些方面让你安于舒适区、哪些领域让你难以突破——这通常与不同类型的风险有关：财务风险、情感风险、身体风险、创意风险。它们在我们生活中构成截然不同的挑战。

But those trust leaps are really, really hard, but creative trust leaps are really easy for me to take. It's a very different type of risk. And so understanding that again can be And it's something I talk about in the book because I really believe it can help you understand where you're stuck and where you like things to be comfortable and where you really find it hard to stretch yourself is usually to do with different types of risk, financial risk, emotional risk, physical risk, creative risk. They all have a very different makeup in our lives.

你还提出，通过梳理信任障碍能帮助我们建立更多信任。什么是信任障碍？我们该如何更好地理解它们？

You've also argued that we'd be helped in terms of finding more trust by trying to sort out our trust barriers. What do you mean by trust barriers, and what are some ways that we can understand them better?

信任障碍就像——你们能看出来我喜欢用比喻——它是挡在路上的东西。就像很多人说'无法改变'：从没在异国生活过、不能换工作、或是无法结束一段关系、不能培养新爱好。他们描述的本质上是陷入停滞，某种意义上的瘫痪状态。

So the trust barrier is as you can tell, I like my metaphors, but it is the thing that gets in the way. You know, like the number of people who say, can't move. Like, they've never lived in a different country or they can't move jobs or in some ways, they can't get off a relationship. They can't take up a new hobby. They are describing, well, being stuck, that they are in some way paralyzed.

这是因为前进路上存在某种障碍。这种信任障碍可能是非常实际的东西，比如金钱、财务安全，但也可能是陪伴之类的需求。独自面对确实令人恐惧。不是要老生常谈跑步的事，但如果没有找到朋友，我是不可能去跑步的——我不敢在天黑后独自绕公园跑步，害怕迷路后会发生什么。这就是一种信任障碍。

And that is because there is some kind of barrier in the way. Now that trust barrier, it might be a very practical thing like money, financial security, but it can also be things like companionship. It's just really frightening to do it alone. Not to go on about running, but I wouldn't be able to run if I didn't find a friend cause I wouldn't run around the parks in the dark, and I'd be really scared of what was gonna happen if I got lost. That's a trust barrier.

在企业中，这些障碍会变得更大。如果你正在推出新产品或服务，这实际上是个非常有用的分析框架，因为你认为的信任障碍与客户感知的往往大相径庭。因此理解这种风险认知——无论真实存在还是主观感受——对新产品服务的发布也大有裨益。

And in companies, these barriers get bigger. It's actually a really useful framework if you're launching a new product or service because often what you think is the trust barrier is very different from what the customer thinks is the trust barrier. So understanding what that perception is around risk, whether it's real or perceived, can be really helpful for launching a new product or service as well.

我猜想政治领域会出现很多信任障碍，这正是《世界幸福报告》关注的范畴。在该领域有哪些典型的信任障碍案例？

And I imagine there are lots of trust barriers that come up in the domain of politics, which is what the World Happiness Report is about. What are some examples of trust barriers that come up in that domain?

我不知从何说起，但信任障碍——说来有趣——可能表现为'一切都不会改变'的认知。这会导致冷漠态度，比如'我就是不去投票，我要弃权'。本质是认为现有方向或体制绝无可能改变。

I don't really sure where to begin, but a trust barrier, actually, it's a funny thing, but it can be like nothing's gonna change. So it can result in apathy. Like, I'm just not gonna vote. I'm gonna abstain. So believing that there is no way things direction or systems are going to change.

财务无保障是巨大的信任障碍，不相信会有任何财富再分配，不相信生活会改善。有些障碍更贴近日常生活。你们研究中可能看到，越来越多人——这确实令人忧心——认为自己永远买不起房、永远无法退休。这种认知甚至会让人连第一步都不敢迈出，尽管那个生活阶段可能还在四五十年之后。

Financial insecurity, that is a massive trust barrier, not believing there's going to be any kind of redistribution of wealth or that my life is going to get better. Trust barriers can be much closer to home. You're probably seeing in the research the number of people, and it's a real worry that they're never going to own a home. They're never going to be able to retire. And so it can actually paralyze people from even getting started, even though that life stage might be forty, fifty years away.

这些真实的信任障碍正在影响人们的幸福感和当下决策。

So these are real trust barriers that are impacting people's happiness and immediate decisions.

那么我们可以通过哪些自省问题来克服这些信任障碍？你提到的某些障碍是结构性的对吧？比如'我没有足够钱买房'这类问题可能更难解决。

And so what are some questions we can ask ourselves to overcome these trust barriers? I mean, some of the ones you're talking about are structural. Right? I don't have enough money for a home. These things might be harder.

但有些信任障碍，比如‘我无法独自完成’，如果我们稍加审视自己的恐惧，可能会更容易克服。那么，有哪些问题我们可以自问来跨越这些信任障碍呢？

But some of the trust barriers, like, I can't do it by myself. They might be easier to overcome if we consult our fears a bit. So what are some questions we can ask ourselves to overcome these trust barriers?

这是个好问题。它从何而来？是我自己形成的，还是童年时被告知的？这非常重要。如果你成长在一个总是告诫‘小心点，别走太远’或‘从那儿下来’的家庭，很多观念确实从很小就开始形成，劳里，这并不奇怪，因为我们与风险和信任的关系大约在四岁时就确立了。

It's a good question. Where did it come from? Was it something I developed or was it something that I was told as a child? It's a really big one. So if you grew up in a family that always like, be careful, don't go that far or get down from there, a lot of it starts really young, Laurie, and that's not surprising because our relationship to risk and trust is really formed around the age of four.

我想问的第二点是：这其中有多少是真实的，又有多少是感知？即有多少是基于事实和数据，多少源于我自身的恐惧？这是第二点。第三点不是要消除障碍，而是降低跨越的难度。比如，我很幸运能在牛津教书，但有朋友说希望他们的孩子也能去。

The second thing I would ask is, again, how much of this is real and how much of this is perception? So how much of this is rooted in facts and data versus my own fears? That would be the second. And then the third is not necessarily getting rid of the barrier, but lowering the leap. You know, I feel so lucky to teach at Oxford, but then I have friends who are like, I'd love my child to go there.

你会觉得，对许多孩子来说这个目标太高了。为何不稍微降低标准呢？如果最终能达到当然很好。这不是否定抱负或追求成就，而是生活中太多压力源于我们把目标定得过高。

And you're like, that is a very ambitious leap for many children. Like, why don't we just lower that leap a little bit? And if it ends up like that, great. It's not about not being ambitious and wanting achievement. I just think so much pressure comes in life because we make these leaps way too high.

我认为政治领域也是如此。对吧？部分因为你提到的错误信息——我的信息准确吗？

And I think that that happens in politics too. Right? I think both because of the misinformation you talked about. Right? You know, my information accurate?

我掌握的是正确事实吗？但同时也因为我们设置了过高的准入门槛。当我们设想与对立阵营的人对话时，脑海中浮现的总是最极端的形象，对吧？

Have I gotten the right facts? But also because we make the barriers to entry so high. Right? I think when we envision maybe talking to somebody from across the aisle, we picture a really extreme or is it on the other side of the aisle. Right?

明白吗？因为这就是我们在分布式信任网络中看到的——意见领袖向我们灌输的内容。在这些领域，我们是否也能找到克服信任障碍的方法？

You know? Because that's, you know, what we see in our distributed trust networks. That's what the influencers are talking us about. Are there ways that we can maybe overcome these trust barriers in those domains too?

我认为这是一个非常重要的观点，因为通常描绘的方式是与体制或对立面对抗。而我会从让你感到不适的对话开始。适应困难处境带来的不适感才是起点。我有很多朋友对加沙战争持有截然不同的观点。在我孩子的学校，他们被禁止讨论战争或政治，用校方的话说，这会引发强烈情绪。

I think it's a it's a really important point because the way it's sort of pictured it often is taking on the system or taking on the other side. And I would start by just having a conversation that makes you uncomfortable. Being comfortable with the discomfort of a difficult situation is the starting place. So I have a lot of friends that have very difficult and different views on the war in Gaza. And, you know, at my children's school, they're banned from talking about wars or politics because, I quote, it brings up big feelings.

我对此强烈反对——我们在教孩子什么？教他们无法应对不适感？不能进行艰难对话？无法与持不同信念的人共处？你可以先从亲友开始，毕竟这些人最后总会拥抱你说依然爱你。明白这段关系不会改变，我们就能从这种不适与激烈中学到：一切都会好起来。

And I have a real objection to that because what are we teaching our children that they can't deal with that discomfort, that they can't have a difficult conversation, that they can't hold that space with another human being that maybe has a different belief or viewpoint from them. So, you know, you can start with your own friends and your family and people that you know at the end are just they're gonna hug and tell you that they still love you. Right? And knowing that nothing changes in that relationship, There's so much we can learn just from being with that discomfort and that heat and learning that everything is okay.

而当你突破这种不适感，另一端可能就是你将无比珍视的信任关系，它会让你更加幸福。

And then on the other side of that discomfort, if you push through it, might be a trusting relationship that you're gonna value tremendously and it's gonna make you much happier.

是的。还是以我孩子为例，他们学校确实发生过关于大屠杀的激烈讨论——有些八九岁的孩子现在不相信大屠杀存在。这种观念显然来自外界。

Yeah. Or, like not to go to my children, but like this did happen in their school where they had quite a difficult conversation around the Holocaust, where some children, you know, now don't believe the Holocaust has happened. Now they're nine and 10. That's not coming from them. That's come from somewhere.

当历史老师用事实支撑观点并举办专题讲座时，孩子们会觉得'有人在认真对待这件事'。老师说明了信息来源。无论立场如何，这场讲座同时影响了持怀疑态度的孩子和认为历史必须被铭记的孩子。这种时刻会让孩子建立'我可以信任这个人'的认知。

And the fact that the history teacher then backed them up and gave this very factual assembly, they were like, well, there's someone who cares, right? And there's information that we can trust. And he explained where he got this information from. Now, regardless of what your side you're on, that assembly would have impacted both sets of children, nonbelievers and the children that this was really important that this chapter in history was remembered. So I feel like those moments, particularly with children, it's really like, I can trust this person.

我可以信任这个情境。这是非常重要的教育。

I can trust this situation. It's it's really important to teach.

当我们回顾《世界幸福报告》强调的信任价值，以及制度性信任度下降如何深刻影响政治时，对于如何让对立双方建立更多信任，你还有什么建议？

So as we think back to the World Happiness Report and the importance it's placed on trust and how trust might be going down institutionally, how lack of trust is kind of affecting our politics in so much, Any last advice for how people on both sides can become a little bit more trusting?

我认为过多讨论集中在制度信任上。这些是99%的人无法改变的系统，它们太庞大、太遥不可及了，对吧？

I think too much of the conversation is around institutional trust. These are systems that 99% of us cannot fix. They are too big. They're too far out of reach. Right?

所以我会建议聚焦于本地信任——甚至不必局限于亲友。关注你社区、邻里、街道正在发生的事。真正参与这类事务能极大增强你的社会纽带，强化凝聚力，让你重获某种掌控感，因为你能影响周围的人。

So I would say focus on local trust. Doesn't even have to be your family and friends. Focus on things going on in your community, in your neighborhood, in your street. And really getting involved in something like that, it can do so much for your social ties. It can do so much for the glue and make you feel in some way back in control because you can impact the people around you.

这就是我的建议：少把目光投向那些遥不可及的大问题，别让它们消耗过多精力。这不是说要退缩，我并非主张闭门独处——我们不需要更多孤独。

So that would be my advice, is just stop looking outward and upward so much at these big problems and letting them consume so much energy. And it's not about withdrawal. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying like be at home more alone. We don't need more of that.

关键在于那些明天就能付诸实践的本地纽带、社区关系和人际连接。

It's about local ties and community ties and connections that you could, in some way, put into action tomorrow.

希望你喜欢我与瑞秋的对话，并学到如何更有效地信任与被信任。若想了解更多，请务必收听瑞秋精彩的有声新书《如何信任与被信任》，各大有声书平台均有售。本期《世界幸福报告》特别系列就此收官，但别担心，《幸福实验室》下周将回归——我将与幸福专家好友格雷琴·鲁宾探讨她的成年生活秘诀。

I hope you've enjoyed my conversation with Rachel and that you've learned a bit more about what you can do to trust and be trusted more effectively. If you wanna hear more, be sure to check out Rachel's fabulous new audiobook, how to trust and be trusted, available everywhere you get your audiobooks. That's a wrap on our special series on the world happiness report. But not to worry because the happiness lab will be back next week. I'll be chatting with my friend, the happiness expert, Gretchen Rubin, about her secrets to adulthood.

期待你继续收听由我——劳里·桑托斯博士主持的《幸福实验室》。

So I hope you'll return soon for the happiness lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

欢迎收听《解码女性健康》，我是纽约市阿德里亚健康研究院女性健康与妇科主任伊丽莎白·波因特医生。本节目中，我将对话顶尖研究者与临床医师，解答你们迫切的问题，将女性健康与中年期的关键信息直接传递给你。

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

百分之百的女性都会经历更年期。这对我们的生活质量可能是一场严峻考验。但即便这是自然现象，我们为何要默默忍受？

A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life. But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?

人们常讨论的症状包括遗忘一切。我以前从不会忘事。她们既担心自己患上了痴呆症，又怀疑是否患有注意力缺陷多动障碍。

The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia, and the other one is do I have ADHD?

大麻和大麻素在改善睡眠方面展现出前所未有的潜力，

There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better,

减轻疼痛、提升情绪，还能让日常生活更加美好。

to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day to day life.

欢迎在任意播客平台收听《解码女性健康》节目，由伊丽莎白·波因特医生主讲。本节目由iHeart出品。

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.