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普希金。
Pushkin.
让我们坦诚地说一会儿。
Let's be real for a second.
现在这个世界感觉相当令人难以承受。
The world feels pretty overwhelming right now.
我们很多人都感到精疲力尽和沮丧。
Lots of us are feeling exhausted and despondent.
我们白天埋头苦干，下班后只想放空自己，这常常意味着无休止地刷手机来放松。
We spend our days grinding at work and then trying to zone out when we get out of work, which often means scrolling endlessly just to unwind.
如果这听起来很熟悉，你或许会暗自思忖：难道生活就只是这样吗？
And if that sounds familiar, you might be wondering quietly to yourself, is this all there is?
当世界显得如此乏味时，我该如何让自己感觉好一些？
How do I feel better when the world feels so bleh?
如果有一种方法能重置你对生活的体验，像孩童时期那样用新鲜的眼光看世界，那时万物都充满生机、可能性和些许魔力，会怎样呢？
What if there was a way to hit the reset button on how you experience life, To see the world with fresh eyes like you did as a child, when everything felt alive, full of possibility, and somehow a little magical.
任何事物存在这一事实本身就令人惊叹。
The mere fact that anything exists at all is astonishing.
所以，只要对几乎任何事物进行更长久、更深入的观察，你或许就能发现一些奇妙之处。
So just take a longer, deeper look into almost anything, and some wondrousness might be available to you.
那么，在今天的节目中，也就是我们'如何在2026年摆脱困境'系列的最后一部分，我们将了解到这种心态是可以实现的。
Well, in today's episode, the last one in our series on how to get unstuck in 2026, we'll learn that this mindset can be within reach.
事实上，今天的两位嘉宾将分享他们如何设计这种心态的技巧。
In fact, today's two guests will share their tips for how to design it.
大家好。
Greetings.
我是戴夫·埃文斯，斯坦福大学生命设计实验室的联合创始人。
This is Dave Evans, the cofounder of the Stanford Life Design Lab.
今天非常高兴能与洛里·桑托斯博士以及我亲爱的搭档比尔·伯内特一同在这里。
So glad to be here today with doctor Lori Santos and my dear partner, Bill Burnett.
我们教授生命设计课程至今已有二十多年了。
We've been teaching life design for twenty odd years now.
你好。
Hi.
我是比尔·伯内特。
I'm Bill Burnett.
我是斯坦福大学的兼职教授，教授‘设计你的人生’系列课程，同时也是新书《如何运用设计思维解锁目标、喜悦与心流，过上有意义的生活》的合著者，这本书是我与好友戴夫共同创作的。
I'm a adjunct professor at Stanford University teaching the designing your life series of classes and now the, coauthor with my good friend Dave of a new book called how to live a meaningful life using design thinking to unlock purpose, joy, and flow every day.
每次在播客里念这么长的副标题，你肯定会念到厌烦的。
You're gonna live to hate that long a subtitle every time you have to say it on a podcast.
我了解到戴夫和比尔的工作，是因为我们的职业经历出奇地相似。
I learned about Dave and Bill's work because our professional stories are surprisingly similar.
和我一样，他们开设了一门旨在提升大学生幸福感的课程，这门课程最终走红网络。
Like me, they created a class aimed at improving college students' well-being, one that ended up going viral.
也和我一样，他们决定将课程中的见解广泛分享给大学校园之外各个年龄段的人们。
And like me, they've decided to share the insights from their class widely with people of all ages far beyond the university setting.
我们教你即兴发挥的技巧，让你更充实地生活。
We teach you the improv skills to live life more fully.
生活即兴剧。
Life is an improv.
它确实是一件你边走边编造的事情，但你可以做得比边走边编好得多。
It really is this thing you make up as you go along, which you can get a lot better at than making up as you go along.
所以我们开设了一门课，一开始就是破除一系列功能失调的信念，那些人们常常信以为真并以此指导生活，但实际上既无益处甚至完全不真实的绝妙想法，这样的信念有很多。
So we teach a class that starts out with debunking a bunch of dysfunctional beliefs, really wonderful things that people often think are true and guide their lives but happen not to be either helpful or even true at all, of which there are many.
一旦我们清除了这些功能失调的信念，我们就会开始教他们工具和技巧，帮助他们弄清楚自己想要什么，如何结识能激发他们内在热情的人，以及如何真正走出去与世界互动并行动起来。
Once we get through the dysfunctional beliefs, we start giving them tools and techniques for how to figure out what they want, how to meet people who can animate that thing in them, how to actually go and engage with the world and get going.
所以这门课的一个核心理念就是设计思维，我觉得很多人其实并不真正了解它的含义。
And so a core idea of this class is this idea of design thinking, which I think a lot of folks don't really know what that means.
比尔，什么是设计思维？
Bill, what's design thinking?
以人为本的设计，现在我们称之为设计思维。
Human centered design, now we call it design thinking.
这是一种解决问题的方式，它深深植根于人性，并致力于解决人类所面临的问题。
It's a way of solving problems that's deeply human and engaged with the problems humans have.
所以，当我们开始思考学生如何构建有意义的人生时，我立刻意识到这是一个设计问题，因为设计师总是在创造世界上前所未有的新事物。
And so it was obvious to me when we started thinking about how our students might approach building a meaningful life that it was a design problem because designers make things new to the world all the time.
在去斯坦福之前，我在苹果公司工作了七年，参与了最早一批笔记本电脑的研发。
I was at Apple for seven years before Stanford, and I worked on the very first laptops.
当你构建一个前所未有的事物时，你不能仅仅依靠工程思维，因为你没有任何关于这个新事物的数据——就像你的未来一样。
And when you're building something that's never existed before, you can't just engineer it because you don't have any data about the thing that's never existed like your future.
因此，我们需要运用以人为本的设计思维，来探索下一个更出色的自己会是什么样子。
And so it's using human centered design to figure out what's the next cool version of you.
我非常喜欢‘下一个更酷的你’这个想法，因为通常当我们思考设计时，我们考虑的是设计某个东西，重点在那个‘物’上。
I love this idea of the next cool version of you because often when we think about designing, we think about designing something, like emphasis on the thing.
但你确实主张，我们可以用有趣的方式来设计自己和自己的生活。
But you've really argued that we can design ourselves and our own lives in interesting ways.
当我们思考设计自己的生活时，应该引入设计思维的哪些特点呢？
What are some of the features of design thinking we should bring in when we're thinking about designing our own lives?
嗯，它始于，你知道的，再次强调以用户为中心或以人为中心。
Well, it starts with, you know, again, user centered or human centered.
所以，这首先意味着什么才是一个人？
So it starts with, like, what does it mean to be a person?
嗯，我们最简短的定义是：人类是一个不断成长的过程，一个永无止境的故事。
Well, you know, our shortest definition is a human person is a becoming, a never ending story.
因此，你正在成长为更充分展现的自己。
And so what you're growing into is the further revealed version of yourself.
我们每个人体内都蕴含着比一生所能展现的更多生命力，我。
All of us contain more aliveness than when lifetime permits us to live out, I.
E。
E.
你体内不止一个你。
There's more than one of you in there.
所以不存在所谓‘做对’，因为当你的一生来衡量时，你远比它宏大。
So there is no getting it right because you are way bigger than it when it is your lifetime.
因此，我们每个人都只能表达出人性完整性的很小一部分。
So all of us are only gonna express a small portion of the fullness of our humanity.
我们在面前有多种选择，要决定在人生下一季的舞台上，让哪一个‘我’登场。
We have multiple choices in front of us both between which of me do I want to give a chance to get out on the stage in the next season of my life.
顺便说一句，世界认为我可能适合和他人合作的有趣事情是什么？
And by the way, what does the world think might be an interesting thing for me to be collaborating with other people on?
所以我正在寻找这两者的交汇点，而这个交汇点一直在演变。
So I'm looking for the nexus of those things, which is evolving all the time.
现在，好吧，让我们提出一些想法，开始原型设计，探索那个未来自我的模样。
And now, oh, let's go have some ideas and get started, start prototyping what the future of that person might be.
所以，这真的始于最初那个不健康的信念：我必须找到我的热情、使命或终极答案。
So it really does begin with the very first dysfunctional belief is I have to find my passion, purpose, answer thing.
不。
No.
我必须找到下一个足够有趣、值得去活出的版本，以及它之后将演变成的样子。
I have to find the next one that will be interesting enough to live into the what will become after that.
所以，如果你感觉有点偏离轨道，别走开，因为比尔和戴夫会给你一些绝佳的建议，帮助你成为更投入、更有生命力的自己。
So if you're feeling a little off track, stick around because Bill and Dave have some excellent advice on becoming a version of yourself that feels more engaged and more alive.
我们将在一些简短的广告后学习他们的所有建议。
We'll learn all their tips after some quick ads.
这里是iHeart播客《保证人类》。
This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
你是否曾希望，对于人生中最难的问题，能获得一个清晰、有科学依据的答案？
Ever wish you could get one clear science backed answer to life's hardest questions?
比如，如何停止拖延、如何在成年后结交朋友，或者如何找到你的人生目标？
Like, how do you stop procrastinating, make friends as an adult, or figure out your purpose?
这正是畅销书作家马克·曼森在《Solved》节目中带给你的内容。
That's exactly what you get on solved with best selling author Mark Manson.
如果你喜欢探究我们为何会这样思考、感受和行为的科学原理，你应该去听一听。
If you enjoy understanding the science behind why we think, feel, and behave the way we do, you should give it a listen.
每一集都探讨一个我们都为之困扰的重大问题——幸福、拖延、攀比、韧性，并审视研究实际指出的解决方法。
Each episode explores one big question we all struggle with, happiness, procrastination, comparison, resilience, and looks at what the research actually says can help.
它发人深省、基于证据、充满实用见解，并且出人意料地有趣。
It's thoughtful, evidence based, full of practical insights, and surprisingly entertaining.
只需在你获取播客的地方搜索‘与马克·曼森一起解决’，或访问 solvedpodcast.com。
Just search for solved with Mark Manson wherever you get your podcasts or visit solvedpodcast.com.
戴夫·埃文斯和比尔·伯内特最出名的是他们广受欢迎的斯坦福课程‘设计你的人生’，以及从这门课程衍生出的畅销书。
Dave Evans and Bill Burnett are best known for their popular Stanford course, designing your life, and the bestselling book that grew out of that class.
但他们最近推出了一本新书，名为《如何过上有意义的生活》。
But they've recently put out a new book called how to live a meaningful life.
他们最重要的见解之一就是所谓的‘设计师之道’，这是一种有意设计你想要的生活的思维方式。
One of their biggest insights is what's known as the designer's way, a mindset for intentionally engineering the life you want.
设计本身是无价值倾向的，只不过我们总是试图让下一个设计变得更好。
Design is inherently value free except we always try to make the next design better.
对吧？
Right?
我们认为自己可以让世界变得更好。
We think we can improve the world.
所以我们从好奇开始。
So we start with wonder.
我天生就很好奇。
I'm naturally curious.
如果我是个设计师，我会对这个世界以及如何让事物变得更好感到好奇。
If I'm a designer, I'm curious about the world and how to make things better.
这不仅仅是‘这个是怎么运作的？’
It's not just, oh, how's that work?
而是，哇哦。
But, oh, wow.
那有多棒啊？
How amazing is that?
我很好奇它是怎么运作的。
I wonder how that works.
对吧？
Right?
当我们说‘保持开放’，指的是对世界的各种体验保持开放，有趣的事情就发生在这些地方。
When we say availability, be available to the experiences of the world, that's where the interesting stuff happens.
彻底接纳，就像可用性加上接纳，正如我们常说的，设计始于现实。
Radical acceptance, like availability plus acceptance is like we always say design starts in reality.
你必须从你当前所在的地方开始，而不是因为你在社交媒体上看到什么，就觉得自己应该去某个地方。
You gotta start right here where you are, not in some place where you think you should be because you saw it on social media or something else.
对吧？
Right?
然后全情投入，却对结果保持冷静超然，因为我们对决策科学有很多了解。
And then being fully engaged but calmly detached from the outcomes because we know a lot about decision science.
你可以做出一个正确的决定，但这并不意味着你一定能得到想要的结果。
You can make a good decision, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna get the outcome you want.
所以，请全情投入你的生活。
So be fully engaged in your life.
要有意识地行动，但对结果宽容一些，然后走进世界，讲述你的故事或创造你的世界。
Be intentional, but give yourself some grace about the outcomes, and then go out in the world and tell your story or create your world.
把这些心态结合起来，我们称之为设计师的方式，但当你将它们整合在一起时，就是以一种惊奇的态度面对世界，对正在发生的事情保持开放，扎根于现实，然后走出去，把这些故事讲给别人听。
So those mindsets put together, we call it the designer's way, but when you put it together, it's like approach the world with a sense of wonder, be available to the things that are happening, Root yourself in the reality of the world, and then go out and tell that story to people.
因为当你讲述这个故事时，你正在创造你想要拥有的世界体验。
Because when you tell the story, you're creating the experience of the world that you wanna have.
我喜欢‘设计师的方式’这个理念，部分原因是它不仅对以用户为中心的设计，甚至对设计自己的人生都非常有用。
I love this idea of the designer's way in part because it's not just great for human centered design or even designing your life.
我认为它对于应对人生中可能出现的各种状况都非常有帮助。
I think it's so useful for navigating all the stuff that can come up in a life.
它与我们在节目中讨论的许多幸福研究证据相契合。
It fits with a lot of the happiness evidence we talk about on the show.
是的。
Yeah.
戴夫，特别是关于激进接纳这个理念，我知道你曾谈到如何用它来应对自己生命中一段极其痛苦的哀伤时期。
Dave, in particular, I know with this idea of radical acceptance, you've talked about how you use that to navigate a really painful time of grief in your own life.
是的。
Yeah.
你大概是在说我的爱妻克劳迪娅的离世。
You're probably referring to the death of my beloved wife, Claudia.
所以在2020年3月8日，她被诊断为晚期绝症。
So on 03/08/2020, she got a terminal diagnosis.
她二十年前曾战胜过乳腺癌，这次决定再搏一次，却选了一种更凶险的癌症，确诊当天就已经四处转移、宣告晚期。
She beat breast cancer once before twenty years prior, decided to give it a second try, picked a much nastier cancer, and she was four ways metastasized and terminal on day one.
她原本以为自己只是得了支气管炎。
She thought she had bronchitis.
她回家时带回来的是一纸死亡判决。
She came home with a death sentence.
医生说她最多只能活六个月到二十四个月。
She had six to twenty four months to live.
但我们拥有了九年。
We got nine.
她去世时是70岁。
And she died at 70.
当时她69岁。
She was 69 at the time.
所以她提前十五年就离开了合同约定的时间。
So she died fifteen years ahead of the contract.
我们有个约定，但她毁约了。
We had a deal, and she broke the deal.
你知道的？
You know?
我当时挺生气的。
I was pretty pissed.
但第一件事是弄清楚，这到底意味着什么？
But the first thing was to frame, what is this?
我们说，好吧。
We said, okay.
好吧，我要死了。
Well, I'm gonna die.
我本来就要死了。
I was gonna die before.
她说，现在我知道什么时候了。
She says, now I know when.
所以这很悲伤，但并非悲剧，因为在70岁时，我基本上已经完成了所有需要做的事。
And so it's sad, not tragic, because at 70, I've kinda done everything I need to do.
没有什么真正缺失的。
There's nothing really missing.
她说，但在离开之前，我还想再享受几样东西。
She goes, but I'd love second helpings of a couple of things before I go.
所以接下来一年的口号是‘再来一份’，但我们并没有得到太多这样的机会，因为疫情、火灾以及其他各种事情交织在一起，情况相当艰难。
So the mantra for the next year was second helpings, which we didn't get that many of because between COVID and fires and everything else, was pretty tough.
但尽管如此，整个想法是要决定如何看待这件事。
But nonetheless, the whole idea was to decide how to think about it.
心态决定一切。
Mindset was everything.
于是我开始采访一些寡妇，那些我认为在丧偶后生活得不错的人。
So I started interviewing widows, people who I thought had widowed well.
所以我要借用别人的智慧。
So I'm gonna borrow other people's wisdom.
我得到的最好的建议之一，来自一个妻子经历了九年濒死过程的男人。
One of the best pieces of wisdom I got was from a guy whose wife went through a nine year death process.
他对我说：听着，戴夫。
He said, look, Dave.
别浪费一秒钟去想她走后你该怎么应对。
Don't waste one second thinking about how are you gonna handle this after she's gone.
因为不管你怎么做，既然你们有过亲密的婚姻，这都会让你痛不欲生。
Because no matter what you do, since you had an intimate marriage, it's gonna rip your legs off.
这会彻底摧毁你的精神。
It's gonna blow your brains up.
你根本不可能做好准备，所以别浪费时间试图准备了。
There's not a chance in hell you're gonna be prepared for this, so don't waste time trying to prepare.
你每用一分精力去思考未来，就是在偷走当下的时光。
And every bit of energy you take away thinking about that future, you're stealing from the present.
所以，专注于什么也不做，尽情享受你们共度的时光。
So lean into doing nothing but enjoy the heck out of the time you guys have.
等她走了之后，你再考虑那些事情也不迟。
And as soon as she's gone, you can figure that out then.
事实正是如此。
That's exactly what it did.
这确实是正确的做法。
It was exactly the right thing to do.
所以我学到了很多关于悲伤的知识，但这一切都基于一个框架：它就是会非常痛苦。
So I learned a ton about grief, but it was all in that framework of it just happens to be really painful.
我不禁想知道，这其中可能有哪些教训。
I wonder what the lessons might be.
还有，不要逃避现实。
And also just not going away from reality.
你之前提到过这个观点：如果你不正视现实，不管它有多糟糕、多可怕，你就无法很好地设计事物。
You mentioned this idea before that you can't design things well if you're not taking into account the reality of the situation as crappy and as terrible as it might be.
嗯，你知道，设计是一个实证过程。
Well, you know, design is an empirical process.
既然是实证的，就必须在名为现实的这个地方行得通。
So if it's empirical, it has to work in this place called a reality.
这是设计唯一能发挥作用的地方。
It's the only place design works.
我们无法在‘应该’的国度里与你共事。
We can't work with you in the land of should.
我们只做真实的事情。
We only do real stuff.
而在现实中，你可以让它变得更好。
And in reality, you can make it better.
我也要提一下，克劳迪娅是一位非凡的女性，她能够接受，你知道，彻底的接受本身并不关乎幸福。
Let me just also mention Claudia was an exceptional woman, and her ability to accept you know, radical acceptance isn't about happiness per se.
它关乎的是'不'。
It's about No.
不。
No.
现实，意味着彻底接纳悲伤。
Reality, which means radically accepting grief.
但克劳迪娅在这方面非常出色。
But Claudia was brilliant at this.
你可以想象另一种情况，有人紧抓着虚假的希望或其他东西。
You could imagine a different situation with someone clinging to false hope or something else.
但是，看着戴夫经历这一切，既无比悲怆，又以一种他们共同达成的接纳方式，显得异常美丽。
But, having watched Dave do this, it was both incredibly tragic and incredibly beautiful in a way that they together managed this acceptance.
这是一个他们两人都不想要的局面。
A situation that neither one of them neither one of them wanted.
所以这无疑是对我们心态的一次实战考验。
So that was battle testing, one of our mindsets for sure.
而眼下的情况是，我们正与几位年长的朋友一同经历类似的事，那位男士正在奋力抗争。
And this situation right now, we're walking through this with a couple of our significantly older friends where the guy is going down swinging.
我的意思是，他绝不会默默接受这个结局。
I mean, he's he's not going quietly into this night.
他现在拒绝一切正确的事情，正在毁掉自己的生活以及周围所有人的生活，而这是一种选择。
He is rejecting everything right and he's ruining his life and the life of everybody around him, and it's a choice.
所以，在接纳这件事上做出明智选择，会带来惊人的好处。
So choosing well on this acceptance thing has an amazing upside.
这确实是有史以来最重要的心态之一。
It really is one of the biggest mindsets of all time.
所以你们每天都在生活中践行这一点，教导学生，并赋予他们这些绝佳的工具，以美好的方式设计自己的人生。
So you all are living it in your daily life teaching students, and you give them these incredible tools for designing their lives in wonderful ways.
但你们，像我一样，有时会遇到一个有趣的情况：有学生稍晚一点回来找你，比如在他们二十多岁后期，他们常常会像我的耶鲁学生有时感到的那样，就是感觉有点迷茫。
But you, like me, sometimes have the interesting moment of a student who comes back a little bit later on, you know, maybe later in their twenties, and they often feel like my Yale students sometimes feel, which is that, like, they're kinda feeling a little lost.
就好像，他们感觉试图遵循了你们的指导，但生活并没有按照他们预想的那样发展。
Like, they're kinda feeling like they tried to follow what you were telling them, but life isn't turning out the way they thought.
比尔，跟我聊聊你和你学生的一些这类对话吧。
Bill, tell me about some of these conversations you had with your students.
我喜欢与学生见面。
I love meeting students.
毕业两年、五年、七年之后。
Two years out, five years out, seven years out.
我刚和一位毕业十五年的学生聊过，他走过来对我说：‘哦，伯内特教授。’
I just talked to somebody who was, like, fifteen years out and came up and said, oh, professor Burnett.
我都没见到你了。
I haven't seen you.
所以他们回来时，我通常会得到两种反应。
So they come back and often you know I get two reactions.
一种是：‘我记得这门课，它至今仍然很有帮助。’
One is, hey, I remember the class and it's still very helpful.
事实上，连我的朋友有时也会问我，我就告诉他们去读这本书之类的。
And in fact even my friends ask me sometimes and I tell them read the book or whatever.
但有时候他们会说：‘我用了所有这些工具，但我的生活依然没有达到我想要的意义、目标或影响力，尤其是影响力，因为Z世代都渴望拥有巨大的影响力。’
And then sometimes they say, you know, I I used all these tools, but I'm still my life still doesn't have the meaning or the purpose or the impact that I wanted to have, particularly impact because the Gen Zs all wanna have a lot of impact.
因此，这也是我们撰写这本新书《如何过上有意义的生活》的原因之一。即便设计出了相当不错的生活或职业，他们仍在追问：等等，回报在哪里？
And so that was one of the reasons we wrote this last book, how to live a meaningful life, is that even after designing a pretty good life or career, they're still looking for, well, wait a minute.
回报在哪里？
Where's the payoff?
影响力在哪里？
Where's the impact?
意义又在哪里？
Where's the meaning?
因此我们想回过头来审视这一点，某种程度上从人生设计理念中退一步，真正更多地关注意义与目标，因为我们的结论是他们找错了方向。
And we wanted to go back and look at that, kind of step back from the life design idea, really look at more at meaning and purpose because our conclusion was they were looking in the wrong place.
我们想在这个问题上为他们提供更好的指引，我想是这样。
And we wanted to give them better navigation, I guess, in that question.
而且我认为学生们有时会误解，尤其是当他们处于那种感觉不对劲的状态时。当我与我那些处于这种状态的学生交谈时，我常常感觉到他们认为解决问题需要做的，就像是彻底颠覆自己的生活。
And I think students sometimes get it wrong, especially when they're in that position of feeling like something's When I talk to my own students who are in this position, I often get the sense that they think what they need to do to fix things is to, like, detonate their life.
比如，我要买辆房车，然后搬到全国各地去，或者我要搬到农场去。
Like, I'm gonna buy a van, and I'm gonna move across country, or I'm gonna move to a farm.
但是，戴夫，你们俩都曾论证过，有其他方式可以绕过这个问题，而不需要彻底颠覆你的生活。
But, Dave, you both have argued that there are other ways around this that doesn't involve detonating your life.
为什么这条路径是通往意义的错误选择呢？
Why is it the wrong path to meaning?
嗯，这也不是绝对不行。
Well, it's not never.
我的意思是，偶尔我会说，是的。
There I mean, every now and then, I'll say, yeah.
我认为你可能真的应该辞职，赶紧离开那份糟糕的、充满毒性的工作，远离那个贪婪的老板，但这种情况非常罕见。
I think you probably should quit and get the heck out of that horrible toxic job working for that voracious boss, but that's pretty rare.
归根结底，我有时会谈到从大学到毕业后的人生转变。
What it boils down to is, you know, I'll sometimes talk about the college to post college shifts.
我的意思是，在大学期间，一切确实都是围绕你自己的。
I mean, while you're in college, you know, it is about you.
一切都只关乎你自己。
It's all about you.
美好的一天是你听到了以前从未听过的东西。
And a good day is when you heard something you never heard before.
你看到了以前从未见过的东西。
You saw something you never saw before.
你做了一些事情。
You did something.
所以当我处于一个陡峭的学习曲线时，生活就很有意思。
So life is cool when I'm on a really steep learning curve.
如果你身处外界，无论你从事医学、市场还是军事，不管你在做什么，这个世界都关乎精通。
Well, if you're out in the world, whether you're in medicine, the marketplace, or military, whatever you're doing, that world is about mastery.
这并不是每天花六个小时做第一次的事情。
And it's not about doing something for the first time six hours a day.
那叫无能。
That's called incompetency.
我们不会允许你对病人、客户或投资者这样做。
We don't let you do that to patients or customers or investors.
他们实际上想要的是那些知道自己在做什么的人。
They actually want people who know what they're doing.
所以我从一切追求新奇，转向了一切追求精通。
So I go from this thing where it's all about novelty to all about mastery.
这是一个巨大的转变，而这条道路更长、更需要耐心。
It's a huge shift, and that's a longer, more patient pathway.
所以有时人们在寻找那种每天都有惊人新意的东西，但事实并非如此。
So sometimes people are looking for the but it's not amazingly new every single day.
我是不是选错了地方？
I must be in the wrong place.
不是的。
No.
你只是对生活的模式理解错了。
You're just thinking about the paradigm of life wrong.
我们一直在谈论如何让生活更有收获，而不是往生活里塞进更多东西。
We keep talking about getting more out of life, not cram more into it.
哦，我需要再找一个爱好。
Oh, I need another hobby.
我需要一个更大的目标。
I need a bigger thing.
我需要更多。
I need more.
不。
No.
你不需要更多。
You don't need more.
你需要从已经拥有的东西中发掘出更多。
You need to get more out of what's already there.
因此，我们开始教导人们如何更好地融入这种生活，从中获得更充实的活力。
And so we start teaching people more how to live into that life to get more full aliveness from it.
这就是真正为意义而设计、为正确的意义而设计的理念，这意味着我们必须坦诚面对我们能够设计出什么样的意义，以及哪些意义是无法真正设计出来的。
And this is the idea of really designing for meaning and designing for the right kind of meaning, which means we need to be honest about the kind of meaning that we can design for and the kinds of meaning that we can't really design for.
那么谈谈人们通常想要获得的那种宏大意义，以及它为什么与你在书中所谈论的设计意义不同。
So talk about the kind of meaning that people usually wanna get, the very big meaning, and why that's different from the meaning that you're talking about designing in your book.
这是一本设计书，不是哲学书。
It's a design book, not a philosophy book.
所以我们并不试图回答生命的意义。
So we don't try to answer the meaning of life.
那个宏大的问题，你知道的，生命的意义是什么？
The big question, you know, what's the meaning of life?
有上帝吗？
Is there a god?
诸如此类的问题。
Blah blah blah.
那不是一个可设计的问题。
That's not a designable question.
但从生活中获得更多意义，是一个可设计的问题。
But getting more meaning out of life is a designable question.
这个想法是关于获取更多，而非塞入更多。
And this idea of getting more out of, not packing more into.
首先，我会改变世界吗？
First of all, am I gonna change the world?
很可能不会。
Probably not.
而这正是值得追求的好事。
And that's a good thing to aspire to.
但如果那是你意义篮子里唯一的鸡蛋，天哪，你可就危险了。
But if that's the only egg in your meaning basket, boy, are you at risk.
所以首先，你必须超越影响力。
And so first thing, you gotta get beyond impact.
而成为完整的人意味着我不仅仅是在产生影响，而且是在更充分地生活。
And then becoming fully human means I'm not just making a difference, but I'm also living more fully.
所以我们做的关键事情是尝试给人们，你知道，更多的食物类别，不仅仅是影响力的肉类，还有好奇的蔬菜，以及心流的饮料。
And so the key thing we do is we try to give people, you know, more food groups, not just the meat of impact, but the vegetables of wonder and the beverages of, you know, flow.
所以我们试图给人们提供更多颜色的彩笔，以便更好地运用这个隐喻。
And so we try to give people a couple more crayons in the box to mix the metaphor.
所以听起来，我们并不是在追寻生命的意义。
So it sounds like we're not going after the meaning of life.
而是在追寻生活中的意义。
We're going after meaning in life.
而要实现这一点，我们需要彻底接受一个事实：生活中意义的容器有时是多么微小。
And a thing that we need to radically accept to do that is that we need to understand how tiny sometimes the meaning in life buckets are.
我认为这让我们触及到了‘特殊性之丑闻’这个概念。
And I think this gets us to this idea of the scandal of particularity.
戴夫，你愿意解释一下这是什么意思吗？
Dave, do wanna explain what this is?
是的。
Yes.
特殊性之丑闻是一个哲学概念。
A scandal particularity is a philosophical idea.
这个想法实际上最初是由沃尔特·布鲁格曼提出的一个神学概念。
It actually started as a theological idea by Walter Brueggemann.
但其核心要义在于，最终极的事物只能通过具体细节来触及。
But what it really boils down to is it turns out the ultimate is only accessible in the particular.
换句话说，崇高实际上存在于荒谬之中。
To put it differently, the sublime is actually found in the ridiculous.
美、真理、爱、交融、统一，这些我们所有人都向往的美好事物。
Beauty, truth, love, communion, unity, these lovely things we all aspire to.
当我们深刻体验它们时，我们大概会感叹，哦，那才是真正重要的。
And when we experience them deeply, we're kinda go, oh, that's really it.
你知道，当你看到那壮丽的日落，大家都会感叹，哦，我想要更多这样的时刻。
You know, you see that amazing sunset, and everybody kinda goes, oh, I want more of that.
那就是我存在的意义。
That's what I was made for.
所以那种终极意义一直在召唤我们所有人，但事实证明，它只以微小的片段形式到来。
And so that ultimate is beckoning to all of us all the time, but it turns out it only arrives in small partial chunks.
这些本质上都是那种圆满的反映。
They're all essentially reflections of that fullness.
但它们并不是它的完整体现。
They're not full embodiments of it.
每一次经历那些美好的事物，老实说，都会让你渴望更多。
Every one of those experiences of something wonderful, frankly, leaves you wanting more.
比如，你知道，那是一个非常棒的吻，但它结束得太早了。
Like, you know, that was a really great kiss, but it stopped too soon.
你知道吧？
You know?
你永远无法拥有全部。
You can never have all of it.
因此，特殊性的悖论在于，这些美好的事物竟然只以如此微小的、像纸杯蛋糕一样的片段出现，这简直令人震惊。
So the scandal of particularity is it's kind of scandalous that these wonderful things only come in these little cupcake sized bits.
你知道吧？
You know?
就是好市多给的那种小份试吃品。
That little tasting thing they give you at Costco.
你懂吧？
You know?
就像，剩下的披萨去哪儿了？
Like, where's the rest of the pizza?
不对。
No.
那一口真是美味。
That was a really good bite.
而我渴望更多，这预示着生活将继续充满趣味。
And the fact that I long for more is the promise that life will continue to be interesting.
所以，在特殊性的悖论中，巨大的转变在于：从‘这仍然不是我真正想要的’转变为‘那很美好，而且还有更多即将到来’。
So the huge shift is, in the scandal particularity, you go from it's still not what I really want to, that was lovely and more is to come.
这是你与有限性关系的彻底转变。
It's a complete transformation of your relationship with finitude.
我们人类不喜欢有限性。
We humans don't like finitude.
当某件事感觉良好时，我们总想要更多。
When something feels good, we want more.
更多的成就、更多的成功、更多的亲吻、更多的玉米片。
More accomplishment, more success, more kisses, more nachos.
但追逐更多并非我们获得大写‘意义’的途径。
But chasing more isn't how we get to capital m meaning.
要做到这一点，我们必须拥抱那些有限的片段，无论这感觉起来多么令人不安。
To do that, we have to embrace the finite bits, however scandalous that might feel.
但关键问题是，我们该如何做到这一点？
But the big question is, how do we do that?
我们该如何留意并充分利用这些微小而美好的时刻？
How do we notice and make the most of these tiny, beautiful moments?
休息之后，当《幸福实验室》节目回归时，我们将揭晓答案。
We'll find out when the happiness lab returns after the break.
你是否曾希望，能对人生最棘手的问题，得到一个清晰、有科学依据的答案？
Ever wish you could get one clear science backed answer to life's hardest questions?
比如，如何停止拖延，如何在成年后结交朋友，或者如何找到自己的人生目标？
Like, how do you stop procrastinating, make friends as an adult, or figure out your purpose?
这正是畅销书作家马克·曼森在《Solved》节目中为你提供的。
That's exactly what you get on solved with best selling author Mark Manson.
如果你喜欢了解我们为何会如此思考、感受和行为的科学原理，你应该去听一听。
If you enjoy understanding the science behind why we think, feel, and behave the way we do, you should give it a listen.
每一集都探讨一个我们共同挣扎的重大问题——幸福、拖延、攀比、韧性，并审视研究真正指出哪些方法能提供帮助。
Each episode explores one big question we all struggle with, happiness, procrastination, comparison, resilience, and looks at what the research actually says can help.
它富有思想性，以证据为基础，充满实用的见解，并且出人意料地有趣。
It's thoughtful, evidence based, full of practical insights, and surprisingly entertaining.
只需在您获取播客的任何地方搜索'solved with Mark Manson'，或访问solvedpodcast.com。
Just search for solved with Mark Manson wherever you get your podcasts or visit solvedpodcast.com.
斯坦福大学的设计师戴夫·埃文斯和比尔·博内特认为，与其试图寻找生活中那个难以捉摸的宏大意义，我们更应该关注那些微小的东西，那些美丽与惊叹的微小瞬间。
Stanford designers Dave Evans and Bill Burnett argue that instead of trying to find the big elusive meaning in life, we should instead focus on the little stuff, tiny moments of beauty and wonder.
事实上，他们认为我们都应该把精力投入到创造这类时刻中。
In fact, they think we should all be putting our efforts into creating these kinds of moments.
你可以设计时刻。
Well, you can design moments.
对吧？
Right?
你可以设计任何体验。
You can design any experience.
而你所追求的是将这一时刻与超越自我的事物联系起来。
And what you're looking for is to connect that moment to something bigger than yourself.
对吧？
Right?
所以是超越。
So transcendence.
那个时刻可以是，我总是做我祖母的紫甘蓝。
That moment can be, I always make my grandmother's purple cabbage.
这是一个食谱，你知道的，来自三十年代的德国。
It's a recipe, you know, from Germany from the thirties.
就是紫甘蓝加一些醋和糖，但它是个特别的东西。
It's just purple cabbage with some vinegar and sugar, but it's a thing.
当紫甘蓝端上桌时，那个瞬间就是每个人都想起了奶奶。
And when the purple cabbage comes out, the moment is everybody remembers grandma.
所以，正是在这些特定的时刻，我们可以发现与生命终极意义的连接，我想，是爱、社区，以及对我们生命中重要人物的回忆。
So it's these particular moments where we can discover a connection to the ultimate meaning of life, I guess, love, community, a memory of an important person in our lives.
你身边处处都有创造这些时刻的机会。
You have opportunities all around you to create these moments.
我只是，你知道，我住在城市的一个工业区，当时正步行去火车站。
I just, you know, I live in an industrial neighborhood in the city, and I'm walking to the train.
我注意到有一丛灌木，上面开满了紫色的花朵。
I'm noticing there's this bush that's got a bunch of purple flowers on it.
我不知道为什么它在十二月开花，但这丛灌木就在那里自顾自地绽放着。
I don't know why it's blooming in December, but there's this bush doing its thing.
我站在那里片刻，看着大约二十个人从我身边走过，却没有人停下脚步拍几张照片，去感受一下自然之美。创造这种时刻的一部分，就是改变你所关注的事物。
I stood there for a moment, and I watched probably 20 other people just walk right by But to stop and take some pictures, just to have a moment to savor the beauty of nature, part of this moment making thing is change what you're looking for.
多加留意。
Pay attention.
对眼前的事物保持开放的心态。
Be available to what's right in front of you.
这丛开满紫色花朵的灌木，还有那位友善的咖啡师，你知道的，他帮我热了松饼。
This bush with purple flowers, the friendly barista who, you know, heated up my muffin.
所有这些微小的事物其实都蕴含着深刻的意义，你可以主动设计这些时刻。
All the little things actually are packed with meaning, and you can design those moments.
你也可以识别并珍惜这些时刻。
And you can also recognize and savor those moments.
无论哪种情况，你都在改变大脑的连接方式。
And in either case, you're changing the way your brain is wired.
对吧？
Right?
你开始寻找那些充满独特性魅力的事物，即生活中的意义，而不是生命的意义。
You're starting to look for things that are imbued with the scandal of particularity, the meaning in life, not the meaning of life.
实际上，在座的各位都是设计师，你们知道的。
What's really going on in you know, we're design guys.
我们会给你们提供一些工具，帮助你们去设计和创造一些东西。
We're gonna give you tools to design something, to make something.
我们到底在创造什么？
What are we making?
如果我直接谈创造意义，十次里有九次，我们交谈的对象——从20岁到90岁——都会遇到同样的问题。
So if I go right to making meaning, nine times out of 10, the people we talk with, from 20 to 90, they're all having the same problem.
他们都会遇到这种‘影响力’的困境。
They go up to this impact thing.
所以，如果我想获得其他形式的意义，就需要用一种不同的方式来看待世界。
So if I want these other forms of meaning, they're found in a different way of seeing the world.
要真正理解‘时刻创造’这个概念，我们需要区分两种不同的世界。
To really get into this idea of moment making, we need to make a distinction between two different kinds of worlds.
首先，是我们常常身处其中的那个世界，那个充满结果、工具价值、资本主义等等的世界，也就是你所说的交易型世界。
First, the world that we often find ourselves in, the world of outcomes and instrumental value and capitalism and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, what you call the transactional world.
那么，戴夫，什么是交易型世界呢？
So, Dave, what's the transactional world?
我们提出了‘两个世界的故事’这个概念。
We posit this idea of the tale of two worlds.
一个是交易型世界，我在那里去完成各种事务；另一个是流动世界，那是宇宙的丰盈，它正发生在此刻、眼前、脚下，时刻环绕着我。
There's the transactional world where I go and get stuff done, and there's the flow world, which is the fullness of the cosmos that's happening in this very moment right in front of me right under my feet, right around me all the time.
我们正在探讨你通过引导注意力参与的是哪一个世界。
We're playing with which world you're participating in in terms of directing your attention.
交易世界，你知道的，就是清单的世界。
Transactional world, you know, it's the world of lists.
坦白说，那是一个你几乎完全活在过去或未来的世界。
Frankly, it's a world where you're living almost entirely in the past or the future.
我是在批评我上次所做的事情。
I am criticizing what I did last time.
我正在从中学习，以便下次能做得更好。
I'm learning from it so I can do it better.
而且我在想，你知道，我还是个便利贴爱好者。
And I'm thinking about you know, I'm I'm still a Post it note guy.
我现在正看着我的桌子，上面有一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八，我试着展示一下，便利贴清单上有18件事，旁边还画了圆圈。
I am literally looking at my desk, and I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, I'm trying to show got 18 things on a Post it list, and I have circles next to them.
如果圆圈里打了个叉，就表示完成了。
And if the circle has an x in it, it's done.
所以现在，我有18件事中的12件打了叉，还有6件画了圈。
So right now, I have 12 out of 18 things with x's and six things with circles.
你知道真正美好的一天是什么样的吗？
And you know what a really good day is?
真正美好的一天就是所有事项都打上叉的时候。
A really good day is when there's all x's.
我迫不及待地希望那种日子快点结束。
What I can't wait is for that to be over.
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整个交易世界只想完成并成功地完成。
All the transaction world wants to be is done and successful, successfully done.
而反馈就是金钱、赞誉和社交媒体上的点赞，你会收到大量的反馈。
And the feedback is money and accolade and social media likes that you get tons of feedback.
所以这是一个很容易完全陷进去的世界。
So it's an easy world to be completely stuck in.
有些人告诉你，这才是唯一真实的世界，这有点令人心碎。
And some people tell you it's the only real world, and that's that's kind of heartbreaking.
因此，你区分了这种交易世界和你称之为‘心流世界’的另一种世界。
And so you make a distinction between this transactional world and a different world that you call the flow world.
那么，比尔，什么是心流世界？
So, Bill, what's the flow world?
它和戴夫刚才说的那些有什么根本不同？
How is it very different from the thing that Dave was just talking about?
嗯，就戴夫刚才说的而言，交易是回头看自己完成了什么，然后向前看接下来要做什么。
Well, in terms of what Dave just said, transactions, it's looking backwards see what I got done and looking forward to see what's next.
我从不在此时此刻，活在当下。
And I'm never right here in the moment, in the present moment.
而流动世界更关乎当下。
And the flow world is more about the present moment.
而且，它随时都可获得。
Again, it's available all the time.
交易世界本身并没有什么错。
There's nothing inherently wrong with the transactional world.
但当你把本应属于流动的事物。
But it's when you make intrinsically flow things.
比如说，我有正念练习，或者有瑜伽练习，这些本应只是关于此时此刻的体验，进入一种流动状态。
Let's say I have a mindfulness practice or I have a yoga practice, which should just be about being in the moment in that place where you're in a sort of a flow state.
却可能把它变成一种交易。
Can turn that into transaction.
嘿。
Hey.
这周我去了五次瑜伽。
I went to yoga five times this week.
打卡。
Check.
但这些做法完全不符合流动世界的真实运作方式。
And none of those things are the way the flow world actually works.
你其实可以同时存在于这两个世界中。
You can be in both worlds at the same time, by way.
我可以在全神贯注地欣赏紫色花朵的同时，依然准时赶到地铁站。
I can be in a total flow state looking at the purple flowers and still get to the train on time.
对吧？
Right?
这里并没有矛盾。
There's no contradiction here.
这是哥伦比亚大学的丽莎·米勒博士的研究成果。
It was the work of, you know, doctor Lisa Miller at Columbia.
我们在讨论觉醒的大脑和追求成就的大脑。
We're talking about the awakened brain and the achieving brain.
如果你愿意用这个模型，那就是左脑和右脑。
There are the left brain and the right brain if you wanna use that model.
不管怎么说，它们一直都在运作。
Whatever it is, they're both on all the time.
只是你没有注意到而已。
It's just you're not paying any attention.
你知道，左脑是负责说话的那部分。
You know, the left brain is the one that talks.
如果你像我和戴夫一样，我脑子里总有人在说话。
And if you're like me and Dave, there's somebody talking in my head all the time.
它占据了所有空间，让你无法接触自己的创造力和直觉。
And it's taken up all the space, the ability to access your creative self, your intuitive self.
它们都在那里。
It's all there.
这在我们的社会中只是发展不足。
It's just underdeveloped in our society.
正如戴夫提到的，人们信任交易型大脑，也就是会说话的那部分大脑。
And as Dave mentioned, people trust the transactional brain, the brain that talks.
他们认为这才是真正的，而认为另一部分只是……嗯，还不错，但不算真正的。
They think it's the real one, and they think this other one is sort of you know, it's a it's okay, but it's not quote real.
有点可爱。
Kind of cute.
它同样真实。
It's just as real.
事实上，甚至更真实。
In fact, even more real.
如果你想成为一个完整的人，就必须接受你的创造力、直觉和觉醒大脑的现实。
If you want to be a whole human being, you have to accept the reality of your creativity, your intuition, your awakened brain.
所有这些在神经学上都是真实的。
All these things are neurologically true.
只是我们生活在一个不重视它们的社会里。
It's just we live in a society that doesn't value them.
你知道，我们一直在谈论重构。
You know, talk about reframes all the time.
重构的意义在于以不同的方式看待事物，改变你的观点，我们试图让人们解放出来，让他们接触到他们正在错失的一系列东西。
The point of a reframe is to look at something differently, change your point of view, and we're trying to free people up to get them access to a bunch of stuff that they're missing.
劳拉，你也在做这项工作。
Now, Laura, you're doing this work too.
那么让我把箭头调转一下方向。
So let me turn the arrow around.
你与你的学生们之间存在着这种挣扎。
You've got this struggle with your students.
你发现哪些方面有帮助，第一，说服他们这是可用的、合法的，并且实际上值得投入一些时间和精力。
What are you finding helpful in, number one, convincing them that this is available and legitimate and actually spending some time and energy on it.
嗯，我想这正是我如此兴奋能与您交谈，并对这个交易性世界的概念感到如此兴奋的原因之一，因为我认为，尤其是我那些A型人格的耶鲁本科生，他们在这个交易性世界里花费了大量时间。
Well, I think this is one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you and so excited about this concept of the transactional world because I think, especially my type a Yale undergraduates, spend a lot of time in this transactional world.
你曾说过交易世界非常具有帝国主义色彩，我当时就想：没错。
You had this quip that the transactional world is very imperialistic, which I was like, yes.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
因为我觉得它会把你吸进去。
Because I think it sucks you in.
你知道吗，比尔，你提到过冥想这个想法，理论上这应该是完全沉浸的流动状态。
You know, Bill, you mentioned this idea of you're doing your meditation, which in theory should be like full on flow world.
你只是活在当下，别无他想。
You're just being present and nothing else.
但我正把它从我的清单上划掉。
But I'm taking it off my list.
我也把冥想写在便利贴上，试图通过它来提升我在投资银行工作的效率之类。
I also have my meditation on a Post it note, and I'm trying to do it so that I work better in my, you know, investment banking job or something like that.
所以我很好奇你们大家是怎么想的，比如，如何对抗这种帝国主义。
So I'm curious what you all think of, like, how to fight the imperialism.
这个交易性世界太容易把人吸进去了，尤其是，我认为，如果你曾在这个交易性世界中取得成功并获益，就像我们许多常春藤盟校的学生那样。
This transactional world is so prone to suck you in, especially, I think, if you've been successful and benefited from the transactional world in the way that a lot of our Ivy League students have done.
嗯，我们的工具之一是品味，我知道你也是品味的爱好者。
Well, one of our tools is savoring, and I know you're a savoring fan as well.
你正坐在红灯前，你最喜欢的歌响起了，然后你可能会想，哦，这太棒了。
You're sitting at a red light and your favorite song comes on, and you kinda go, oh, that's great.
比如，不是的。
Like, no.
不对。
No.
不是。
No.
真的非常喜欢它。
Really love it.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我太爱那首迪伦的歌了。
I love that Dylan song.
就这样完全沉浸其中十七秒，然后继续前行。
It is so drop all the way into it for seventeen seconds, and then off you go.
如果你开始学习这样做，你就开始学习如何进行瞬间品味。
And if you start learning how to do that, you start learning how to do sudden savoring.
就像，这是一杯好咖啡。
Like, it's a good cup of coffee.
等一下。
Wait.
让它在舌尖多停留三秒钟。
Hold that one on your tongue for three seconds longer.
三秒钟。
Three seconds.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我真的能尝出来，因为我只喝半因咖啡。
I can actually taste because I make half caf.
我用深烘无咖啡因豆和中度研磨的有咖啡因豆。
I use dark decaf and medium grind caf.
我能尝出两种豆子吗？
Can I taste both beans?
天哪。
Oh god.
我能。
I can.
这真的有影响。
That moves the needle.
我喜欢这个建议的一个原因是，它提醒我们可以在两者之间来回切换。
One of the reasons I love this suggestion is that it's just a reminder that we can switch back and forth.
你书里提到的一个建议是，直接对自己说：好吧。
One of the suggestions you give in the book is to literally tell yourself, okay.
切换。
Switch.
我在读完这本书后，甚至发现自己也在用这个方法，比如，当我准备做播客时，会完全陷入一种紧张、紧迫的心态。
And this was something I found myself even using right after reading the book is, you know, I'll be prepping for a podcast and, you know, kind of in full transaction, urgent mind head.
然后我突然想起来：哦，等等。
And then I just remember, like, oh, wait.
切换。
Switch.
啊，我会去留意世界中的光线，或者身下的座椅，又或者有人从旁边走过。
Ah, I'm paying attention to the light in the world or, like, the seat under me or, you know, someone's walking by.
让我对他们微笑。
Let me smile at them.
这几乎像是你给自己布置了一个任务：去留意流动世界中你能注意到的一切，这招挺管用的。
It's almost like you give yourself the task of noticing what you can notice in the flow world, and that works pretty well.
是的
Yeah.
确实如此。
It really it really does.
切换思维的想法。
The idea of flipping the switch.
比如，我和戴夫在为这个播客做准备时，看着我们的笔记，等等。
Like, Dave and I were prepping for this, you know, the podcast, and we're looking at our notes and da da da.
那都是事务性的。
That was all transactional.
就在我们上线前，我突然切换了思维，心想：哇。
And then just before we came on, it was the moment when I flipped the switch to, like, oh, wow.
我有机会和这么有趣的人——劳里·桑托斯——交谈。
I get to talk to this really interesting person, Laurie Santos.
她的研究成果太出色了。
This is an amazing body of work.
这会很有趣的。
This is gonna be fun.
有一些方法可以让你摆脱困境，而且相当简单。
There's ways you can get unstuck that are really quite simple.
我认为你不必花十年时间培养冥想习惯。
I don't think you have to spend ten years developing a meditation practice.
请继续。
Go ahead.
这或许是一件好事。
That's probably a good thing.
但即便是禅宗僧侣也会说，顿悟是瞬间发生的。
But even the Zen monks would say that enlightenment is instantaneous.
我最喜欢的一句话是：如果你在当下无法找到觉悟，那你指望在哪里找到它呢？
And one of my favorite quotes is if you can't find enlightenment right where you are, where do you expect to find it?
难道是在别处吗？
Is it over there?
是在那边吗？
Is it over there?
不是。
No.
就在这里。
It's right here.
而且就在那些小小的瞬间里。
And it's in just little moments.
所以这比你想象的要容易。
So it's easier than you think.
你不需要花很多时间。
You don't have to spend a lot of time.
品味是一种方式。
Savoring is one thing.
就是练习接纳的理念。
The idea of just practicing acceptance.
嘿。
Hey.
今天我只想试着活在现实世界里，看看会发生什么。
I'm just gonna try to be in the real world today and see what happens.
还有Availability。
And availability.
我能改变我所寻找的东西吗？
Can I change what I'm looking for?
这一切都关乎连接。
It's all about connection.
这一切都关乎爱、他人和超越自我的事物。
It's all about love and people and things beyond yourself.
那么，有没有那么一刻，你能拥有更多社群感？
So is there a moment where you can have a little more community?
你能跟火车上那个人聊一聊吗？
Can you talk to that person on the train?
你能和咖啡店里的某个人聊聊天吗？
Can you chat with someone at the coffee shop?
找到一种连接的方式。
Find a way to connect.
你知道吗，这些微小的设计时刻能帮你摆脱困境，让你意识到，也许你当下所过的生活本身就蕴含着意义，你不必去别处寻找。
You know, these little tiny design moments that help you get unstuck and figure out that, you know, maybe there is some meaning in the life you're already living, and you don't have to go find it somewhere else.
我特别喜欢你的书，其中一个原因是你告诉我们一些很好的技巧，帮助我们转向流动的世界。
One of the reasons I love your book so much is that you tell us some really good techniques for making that switch for kind of switching to the flow world.
你提到的一个重要方法就是‘惊奇’这个概念。
And one of the big ones you talk about is this idea of wonder.
戴夫，你提到你给学生们的座右铭是追求潜在的奇妙。
Dave, you mentioned that you give your students the mantra of pursuing latent wonderfulness.
你这么说是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
嗯，心态很重要。
Well, for you know, mindset matters.
如果你走进一个房间或任何一种体验，它很可能很无聊。
And if you walk into a room or you walk into any experience, it's probably gonna be boring.
我觉得我根本不认识这些人。
I don't think I even know these people.
你实现这种预期的可能性极高。
Your chances of fulfilling that expectation are extremely high.
如果你一边走一边想，哇，这肯定会很棒。
If you're walking kinda going, man, bet this is gonna be great.
我真期待见到这些有趣的人。
I can't wait to meet these interesting people.
现在你可能会失望。
Now you may be disappointed.
他们可能全都是一些平庸之辈，哦，哦，就这样吧。
They may be all absolute dulps like, oh oh, well.
但当你主动去寻找时，你发现它们的机会就会大大增加。
But when you round up, your chance of finding it goes way up.
把确认偏误当作朋友。
Use confirmation bias as a friend.
你知道的。
You know?
给自己一个机会。
Give yourself a chance.
你知道的。
You know?
我们正在学习如何玩这场游戏并赢得胜利。
We're learning how to play the game to win here.
因此，追求潜在的美妙之处意味着，美好的事情一直在发生。
So the pursuit of latent wonderfulness is there's something wonderful going on all the time.
关于潜在的美妙之处，这也是对我们学生的回应，你知道，他们对每件事的要求都极高。
On the latent wonderfulness, this this is also in response to our students, you know, have a very high bar for everything.
就像，我不会去大公司面试，因为大公司都很差。
It's like, I'm not gonna go interview at a big company because big companies are bad.
那么，你怎么知道呢？
Well, how do you know that?
嗯，我所有的朋友都这么告诉我。
Well, it's all all my friends tell me.
好吧。
Alright.
这是你的任务。
Here's your assignment.
你知道的，你会去苹果和谷歌这样的公司面试，然后回来。
You know, you're gonna go interview at, you know, Apple and Google and come back.
现在有个学生说，我永远不会去中央情报局面试。
And now one student said, I will never interview at the CIA.
好吧。
Say, okay.
去中央情报局面试吧。
Go interview at the CIA.
那里有20%的可能性存在一些有趣的东西。
There's a 20% chance that there's something in there that's interesting.
去把它找出来。
Go find it.
试试看。
Give it a shot.
去把它找出来。
Go find it.
结果他们 inevitably 回来后说：你知道吗？CIA在人工智能领域已经领先了整整十年？
And inevitably, come back and they go, do you know that the CIA is working, like, ten years ahead in the AI thing?
他们谈论的是硅谷里没人讨论的内容。
They talked about stuff nobody's talking about in the valley.
我真想在那里工作。
I totally wanna work there.
所以我们的学生为自己的经历设定了极高的标准。
So our students set a ridiculously high bar for their experiences.
如果它们不够出色，他们就不想做。
And if they're not gonna be amazing, they don't want to do it.
因此，他们把自己排除在许多可以尝试的事情之外，因为他们对潜在美好事物的标准是：如果不是100%，我就不做。
And so they shut themselves out of so many things they could try because their bar for latent wonderfulness is if it's not a 100%, I'm not going to do it.
当你真正深入思考如何知道它不会很酷时，他们其实并不知道。
And then when you actually get down to how do you know it's not going to be cool, they don't know.
他们只是听朋友说过，或者更可能的是，他们只是害怕去尝试。
They just heard it from a friend or more likely, they're just afraid to try it.
所以这是一种帮助他们摆脱困境的方法。
And so this is a way of getting them unstuck.
因此，这就是去寻找这些奇妙的时刻，甚至是微小的奇妙时刻，而不是去寻找那种大写的‘奇妙’。
And so that's seeking out these moments of wonder, maybe even these tiny moments of wonder, not putting wonder, like, you know, capital w wonder out there to look for.
你经常提到的第二个策略是关注连贯性。
A second strategy you've talked about a lot is to attend to coherence.
戴夫，什么是连贯性？为什么它如此重要？
Dave, what's coherence, and why is it so important?
好的。
Okay.
我们把连贯性定义为你自身的本质、你的信念与你所做之事三者的交集与一致。
So we define coherence as the intersection and the alignment of who you are, what you believe, and what you're doing.
关于意义的研究表明，如果你能将这三个点——我是谁、我相信什么、我正在做什么——联系起来，那么你的生活就是连贯的。
The research on meaning will say that if you can interconnect those three dots, who am I, what do I believe, and what am I doing, then my life is coherent.
我在世界上找到了意义。
I am making sense in the world.
我的行为完全像真实的自己。
I'm acting just like myself.
如果这三个点没有连接起来，创造意义的可能性就会大大降低。
And if I don't have those dots connected, the chance of meaning making goes way down.
当然，连接这三个点的前提是先找到它们。
Now, of course, the prerequisite to connecting those dots is locating them.
因此，我们设计了一个名为‘指南针练习’的活动，包含三个部分：我的当前故事、我的工作观和我的人生观。
So we have an exercise called the compass exercise, which has three components, my current story, my work view, and my life view.
所以，你需要写三篇短文，帮助你梳理出描述你是谁的叙事。
So three little essays you write that will help you figure out the narrative that describes kind of who you are.
但这就能完全代表你是谁了吗？
Now is that the totality of who you are?
不能。
No.
但它确实是个很好的开始。
But it's a real good start.
我们已经做过几十万次了，所以基本掌握要领了。
We've been doing this a couple 100,000 times now, so we kinda got the hang up.
而且对很多人来说效果不错。
And it seems to be working well for people.
当我在生活中真正活出真实的自己，包括那些不得不做出的妥协时，这就是一致性。
So coherency is when I'm actually living out who I really am in the world, including the compromises that I have to make.
而一致性反思——一种意义建构工具——就是捕捉自己：今天我在什么时候感到一致？
And a coherency citing, which is a meaning making tool, is catching yourself in the act of when was I coherent today.
举个例子，对我来说，一个非常美好的一致性时刻，却很容易被忽略。
So example, a really lovely coherency signing for me, which is so easy to miss.
你知道，斯坦福大学生活设计的一个新兴方向，不是增加越来越多的课程，而是为不同群体开设专属课程。
You know, one of the growing edges of life design at Stanford is not more and more classes, but classes to different affinity groups.
因此，现在有一个关于设计你的穆斯林生活的试点项目。
So there's a pilot on designing your Muslim life.
那些信仰伊斯兰教的学生感到非常孤立，他们希望与有相似理念的人一起参与这种生活对话。
So the kids who adhere to Islam feel pretty isolated, and they would like to be in this life conversation with people of a similar mindset.
于是比尔把他们召集到一个房间里。
So Bill gets them in a room.
穆斯林牧师比尔、存在主义无神论者，还有我这个拥有神学院学位的人，一起开设了‘设计你的穆斯林人生’这门课。
The Muslim chaplain, Bill, the existential atheist, are a class in designing your Muslim mind, and I'm the guy with a seminary degree.
我坐在教室后面，看着我的无神论搭档在讲授一门灵性课程，我心里想：这太棒了。
I'm sitting in the back of the room watching my atheist partner teach a spirituality class, and I'm thinking, this is so cool.
我参与打造了一个地方，让人们能够超越个人意识形态，整合自己的灵性。
I helped build a place where people are integrating their spirituality even beyond their personal ideology.
这对我来说是一个非常连贯的时刻。
That is such a coherent moment for me.
这就是最好的状态了。
This is as good as it gets.
所以关键在于，当你真正奏效时，要捕捉到自己正在这样做。
And so it's about catching yourself in the act when it's actually working.
你猜怎么着？
And guess what?
它比你想象的要更常奏效。
It's working more often than you think.
该休息一下了。
It's time for a quick break.
但当我们回来时，我们会探讨一些我最喜欢的进入心流状态的技巧，还会听到比尔如何几乎一直保持在心流状态中的惊人方式。
But when we return, we'll explore some of my favorite tips for stepping into the flow world, and we'll hear the surprising way that Bill is able to stay in the flow world almost all the time.
《幸福实验室》马上回来。
The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.
你有没有想过，能否得到一个清晰、有科学依据的答案来解答人生中最棘手的问题？
Ever wish you could get one clear science backed answer to life's hardest questions?
比如，如何戒掉拖延、作为成年人交朋友，或者找到自己的人生目标？
Like, how do you stop procrastinating, make friends as an adult, or figure out your purpose?
在《Solved》节目中，由畅销书作者马克·曼森为你提供这样的答案。
That's exactly what you get on solved with best selling author Mark Manson.
如果你喜欢了解我们为何如此思考、感受和行为背后的科学原理，那你一定该听听这个节目。
If you enjoy understanding the science behind why we think, feel, and behave the way we do, you should give it a listen.
每一集都深入探讨一个我们所有人都在挣扎的大问题——幸福、拖延、比较、韧性，并揭示研究真正指出的解决方法。
Each episode explores one big question we all struggle with, happiness, procrastination, comparison, resilience, and looks at what the research actually says can help.
这个节目思想深刻、基于证据、充满实用洞见，而且出人意料地有趣。
It's thoughtful, evidence based, full of practical insights, and surprisingly entertaining.
只需在你收听播客的平台搜索‘Solved with Mark Manson’，或访问 solvedpodcast.com 即可收听。
Just search for solved with Mark Manson wherever you get your podcasts or visit solvedpodcast.com.
我们一直在与设计师戴夫·伊万斯和比尔·伯内特交谈，探讨如何摆脱永不停歇的‘做做做’的功利世界，从而找到进入心流世界的方法。
We've been chatting with designers Dave Evans and Bill Burnett and exploring how to get out of the transactional world of do do do all the time so that we can find ways into the flow world.
现在，心流这个概念我们在《幸福实验室》节目中经常讨论，但比尔和戴夫对这个概念发展出了他们自己独特的见解。
Now flow is an idea that we talk about a lot on the happiness lab, but Bill and Dave have developed their own unique take on the concept.
根据米哈里·契克森米哈赖——这个概念的开创者，一位杰出的研究者——对心流的原始定义。
The original definition of flow, according to Mihay Csikszentmihayi, the founder of this concept and a wonderful researcher.
而且，你知道的，那本权威著作《心流：最优体验心理学》在多年前出版，它将心流通道定义为一个区域，在那里你当前所从事任务的挑战性与你的技能水平近乎匹配，这意味着你不会因为技能不足而感到焦虑，担心自己会失败。
And, you know, the definitive workflow, the psychology of optimal experience comes out some time ago and defines the flow channel as being a zone where the challenge of the task in which you are currently engaged and your skill level are close to matched, meaning you're not under skilled and now you're anxious because you're gonna fail.
你也不会因为技能过剩而感到无聊，觉得闭着眼睛都能完成，而是处于一种真正投入的状态。
You're not over skilled and you're bored because you could do this in your sleep, but you're kinda really on it.
所以结果是，这项任务对你的要求足够高，让你能够完全投入其中。
And so what happens is the task demands enough of you that you could be fully engaged.
而那个区域，就是你可能会进入心流状态的地方。
And that zone is a place where you might drop into flow.
就像，你知道的，巅峰状态，或者当你真正进入状态时，比如那支击败俄罗斯队的美国冰球队。
There's like, you know, Apex or when it's when you're really in the zone, that amazing US hockey team that beat the Russians.
你明白吗？
You know?
你完全进入了心流状态。
You're totally in flow.
这太棒了。
That's great.
但大多数人认为这就是心流。
And most people think that's what flow is.
但这里有个问题。
But here's the problem.
这种巅峰体验让心流变得太难实现了。
It's this Apex experience, which makes it way too hard.
尤其是在我可能技能过剩的简单任务中，我们重新定义了所谓的简单心流。
Particularly in the simple task where I might be overskilled, we redefined what we call simple flow.
你不必让无聊偷走你的注意力。
You don't have to let boredom steal your brain.
我的意思是，昨晚凌晨一点，暖气突然启动了。
I mean, last night, the heater went on at one in the morning.
我当时就想，这是什么情况？
I go, what the heck?
我上楼一看，恒温器好像炸了。
I went upstairs, and the thermostat had kind of exploded.
于是我彻底掉进了那个老式恒温器的坑里，那东西根本不好用。
So I went all the way down the nerd rabbit hole of an old school thermostat that didn't work very well.
结果我才花了四十五分钟就修好了。
And it only took me forty five minutes, and I fixed it.
我玩得特别开心，因为我完全沉浸进去了，没觉得这事儿真他妈烦人。
And I had the best time because I went all the way into not this is such a pain in the ass.
你知道吧？
You know?
但我想，那个19年前的工程师设计这个界面时，到底在想什么？这简直是史上最差的用户界面之一。
But it's kinda like, gee, I wonder what that 19 engineer was thinking when he designed one of the worst UIs of all time.
这事儿居然这么有意思。
How interesting this could be.
所以我选择全身心投入，享受解决恒温器问题、为太平洋燃气与电力公司节省一点燃气的乐趣。
And so I just chose to go all the way in and enjoy the heck out of solving my thermostat problem and saving a little gas for Pacific Gas and Electric.
你明白吗？
You know?
所以，就顺其自然吧。
So just go with it.
这是一种选择性的心流状态，即全身心投入你正在做的事情，这让你能在那个特定活动中，通过你独特的自我，在当下这个独特的时刻，尽可能多地体验生命的活力，这可能就是一种心流模式。
That's a choice flow, full engagement in what you're doing, which allows you to experience as much of your aliveness as that particular activity will permit to be expressed in your scandalously particular self, and this scandalously particular moment could be a flow mode.
我特别喜欢心流这个概念，它正好契合了'具体性的魅力'这个观点，因为我们只能在当下时刻体验到它。
I love that flow really plays on this idea of the scandal of the particular because we can only ever get it in the present moment.
它不是我们能为未来设计的，也不是能在过去思考的。
It's not something we can design for the future or think about in the past.
比尔，你也曾谈到过，进入心流的这些时刻确实需要我们更加'具身化'一点。
Bill, you've also talked about how these moments of being in flow really require being a little bit more embodied.
为什么具身化如此重要呢？
Why is embodiment so important?
哦，你知道的，这具身体不仅仅是带我去开会的工具。
Oh, you know, this thing, this body isn't just the thing that takes my brain to meetings.
我的意思是，我们都知道肠道、迷走神经以及其他系统中存在着大量的神经活动。
I mean, we know that there's a lot of neurology going on in the gut, in in the vagal nerves, and all the other systems.
因此，我们是具身的生物，通过在世界上行动和工作来学习。
So we are embodied creatures, and we learn by moving and working in the world.
有我们的智力，也就是所谓的IQ，是我们大脑中负责言语的部分。
There's our intelligence, our IQ, I guess, you could say, the talking part of our brain.
有我们的情商，也就是大脑的情感部分。
There's our EQ, our emotional part of our brain.
还有我们对世界的动觉理解。
There's our kinesthetic understanding of the world.
我们如何在世界上行动？
How do we move in the world?
我们身体中的本体感觉。
The proprioception in our body.
现在有很多关于身体如何在世界上理解自己的新观点。
There's a whole bunch of stuff coming up now around how the body actually understands itself in the world.
所以，别跟我谈人工智能和脱离身体的电脑。
And so, you know, don't talk to me about artificial intelligence and disembodied computers.
你必须置身于这种具身智能之中，因为直觉、好奇心，以及许多心流触发因素，都与释放多巴胺回路或激活某种神经回路有关，这些回路会让身体的其他部分参与到这种体验中，这就是为什么运动员常常谈到‘进入状态’之类的感觉。
You you have to be inside this embodied intelligence because it's also where where we feel our intuition, our curiosity, and many of the triggers for flow have to do with, you know, either releasing a dopamine circuit or releasing some kind of a a neural circuit that engages the rest of the body in that experience, which is why athletes often talk about, you know, being in the zone or things.
这是一种身体上的动觉性心流。
It's a physical kinesthetic flow.
这些全都是我们在时间和空间中对自我的具身体现，它们都是触发我们所说的简单心流或随时可得的心流状态的因素。
So these are all embodiments of ourselves in a time and space in the world that are all triggers to the what we're calling simple flow or the flow state that's available all the time.
我们打个比方，这就像地表下流淌着一个含水层。
One of our analogies, it's like an aquifer running right under the surface.
你只需要打个洞，就会有充足的水。
All you got to do is drill a hole, and there's plenty of water.
你只需要深入挖掘你脚下正存在的东西。
You just just got to dig into that thing that's right beneath you.
比尔，我称他为心流大师。
Bill, I call the flow master.
比尔长期以来一直热爱心流状态。
Bill has loved flow for a long time.
他就像是心流队长。
He's like captain flow.
比尔，你知道，不止一次，你会跟我说些类似'天哪'这样的话。
Bill, you know, more than a few times, you'll tell me something like, oh god.
你知道，这真的非常棒。
You know, it's really been great.
我已经连续四天处于心流状态了。
I've been in flow for four days now.
我的意思是，你声称达到了这种持续的心流状态。
I mean, you claim to attain this persistent flow state.
你能给听众们一些建议吗？到底怎样才能做到这一点？
Can you give the listeners any tips on how the heck do you pull that off?
这既是我努力尝试去做的事，从根本上说也是一个谜。
It's both something I tried to do and it's a mystery fundamentally.
但我真的认为，这取决于你在寻找什么。
But I really get back to it depends on what you're looking for.
所以当我开始一天的生活时——我已经这样做了很多很多很多年——我会以一句肯定语开始新的一天，我说：'活在所有可能世界中最好的那个世界里。'
And so when I start my day, I've been for a long many, many, many years now, I start the day with an affirmation where I say, live in the best of all possible worlds.
因为正如戴夫提到的，我是一个存在主义无神论者，所以真正彻底地接受'这就是全部'。
Because as Dave mentioned, I'm an existential atheist, so truly the radical acceptance that this is it.
不妨做到最好。
Might as well be the best.
我今天做的每件事，都是我自己选择去做的。
And everything I do today, I choose to do.
我认为，选择投入我的体验，是我找到心流的第一要诀。
Choosing into my experience, I think, is the is the number one way in which I find flow.
这就是随时待命的声音，兄弟。
That's the voice of availability, brother.
这就是所谓‘可及性’听起来的样子。
That's what availability sounds like.
我相当擅长同时处理多项事务并完成工作。
I'm pretty good at being simultaneously I get stuff done.
我的意思是，有些人可能觉得我心不在焉，但那只是因为我的心思在别的事情上，而不是他们交易世界里的优先事项上。
I mean, you know, some people might I'm absent minded, but it's just because my mind is on something else, not on whatever their priority is in the transaction world.
但你也知道，这也是我练习创造力的结果。
But it's also you know, I've practiced creativity.
我是一名画家，也是一位艺术家。
I'm a painter, and I'm an artist.
我花了很多时间沉浸在那美妙的状态中，你知道的，罗伯特·亨利有句名言。
I spend a lot of time in that wonderful you know, there's a quote from Robert Henry.
目标不是去创作艺术。
The goal isn't to make art.
而是要进入那种让艺术创作变得不可避免的美妙心境。
It's to be in that wonderful state of mind that makes art inevitable.
所以我努力花很多时间处于那种让心流自然发生的心态中。
So I try to spend a lot of time in the state of mind that makes flow inevitable.
你似乎还花了很多时间在你给每个人的最后一个建议上，那就是你们俩都非常重视社群。
Another thing you seem to both spend a lot of time in is the last suggestion that you have for everyone for how to get into the flow world more, which is that you both spend a lot of time in community.
为什么社群对设计思维整体来说如此重要？
Why is community so important for design thinking generally?
嗯，社群方面，就设计而言，设计总是团队合作的结果。
Well, community I mean, in terms of design, design is always done on teams.
它总是与人一起完成的。
It's always done with people.
你希望与拥有不同观点的人进行深度协作。
You wanna radically collaborate with people who have different points of view.
但新书中关于社群的部分，其实源于戴夫在斯坦福大学教授‘杰出职业生涯计划’的经验。
But the community part in the new book really comes from Dave's experience teaching a program at Stanford called the Distinguished Career Institute.
这是给成年人的间隔年。
It's a gap year for grown ups.
人们在取得卓越成就后，会来到斯坦福大学待上一年，试图找到人生下一步的转折点。
People come to Stanford for a year after a distinguished career, and they spend time trying to figure out the pivot, the thing they're gonna do next in their lives.
这些人都非常聪明且成功。
These are pretty smart, successful people.
戴夫，这种社区模式在他们身上是如何运作的？
Dave, how does this community thing work with them?
这确实很有趣。
Well, it's been interesting.
首先，我们在所有课程中都开展社区活动，我们经常说，一个人几乎不可能真正听清自己的声音。
First of all and we do community work at all our classes, and we we often say it's almost impossible to hear yourself by yourself.
丹·西格尔，你可能知道，他以前在加州大学洛杉矶分校，心智研究所，总会提醒我们，所谓的独立自我其实是一个极具破坏性的客户。
Dan Siegel, you know, formerly out of UCLA, the MindSide Institute, will remind us all that, in fact, the autonomous self is a profoundly toxic client.
我们现在从科学上知道，意识是延伸的。
We now know scientifically the consciousness extends.
这就是人类意识的本质。
This is the nature of human consciousness.
我们彼此深度相连。
We are deeply involved with each other.
所以如果你开始理解这一点，你就会真正想要利用共同体的意义，因为你的完整自我只有在我们之中才能实现。
So if you start understanding that, then you really wanna leverage what it means to be in community because the the fullness of you is really only available as part of us.
因此，我们在这一群杰出职业人士中发现，我们开始将人们组成设计团队，不是为了设计他们项目结束后的未来生活，而是为了在当下充分受益。
And so what we found at this distinguished careers group is that we started putting people into design teams, not to design the life after their program, but to get the most from it in the present moment.
这些人的特点是，他们年龄在35到45岁之间，或者45到90岁之间，大多是55到75岁，正在思考：我接下来该做什么？
And the nice thing about these these folks, these 35 to 45 people, 45 to 90 years old, mostly 55 to 75, thinking about what do I do next?
他们来这里是为了成为更完整的自己，并花一些时间去探索。
And they're here to become their fuller selves, and they spend some time just exploring.
那么，如果我们所有人都在成长，你能否更有意识地成长？
So if this idea of we're all becoming, can you become more intentionally?
于是，这些学员彼此对视，轻轻说一声：嗨。
And so the fellows look at each other and kinda go, well, hi.
你是谁？
Who are you?
你知道吗，我叫戴夫。
You know, I'm Dave.
我是劳里·桑托斯。
I'm Laurie Santos.
那你对什么感兴趣？
Well, what are you into?
是的。
Yeah.
我对幸福这个话题很感兴趣。
I'm into the happiness thing.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
太棒了。
That's so cool.
他们彼此坦诚相待，唯一想为对方做的就是帮助彼此成为更真实的自己。
And they take each other at face value, and the only thing they wanna do for each other is help one another become their more authentic selves.
有趣的是，几周后，他们都会说，这是我交过的最好的朋友。
And what's funny is that a couple of weeks into the program, they will all say, these are the best friends I've ever made.
我的回应是：我不信。
And my line is I'm not buying it.
你们创造了企业文化。
You created corporate cultures.
你们中的绝大多数都有庞大的家庭。
You almost all of them have big families.
我说，你们大多数人不是都和几百个人说过‘你在哪’吗？
I said, aren't most of you offending off hundreds of people saying, where are you?
我想你们了。
I miss you.
你已经离开很久了。
You've been gone for you.
你居然告诉我，这35个你从未见过、被斯坦福招生官随便扔进一个房间的人，六周内就成了你这辈子最好的朋友？
And you're telling me these 35 yahoos that some admission officer at Stanford threw you into a room with you've never met before, in six weeks, become the best friend you ever had.
真的吗？
Really?
他们就会说，是的。
And they go, yeah.
原因是他们身处一种社区中，在这里我们互动的初衷不仅仅是消遣。
And the reason is because they're in this kind of community where the intention of our interaction is not just having a good time.
那只是社交聚会。
That's a social gathering.
不是为了完成某件事。
It's not getting something done.
那是协作型聚会。
That's a collaborative gathering.
我的观点是，人们在交易型世界中所做的99%的事情都是社交或协作性质的，这些都很美好，但还有一种形成型的社群，那就是我们为何聚在一起？
And my argument is 99% of what people do in the transactional world is social or collaborative, wonderful things, but then there's a formative community, which is why are we together?
我们聚在一起是为了成为更好的自己，并更充分地体验当下正在尝试的自我。
We're together to become our better selves and to enjoy more fully the self we're presently trying on.
所以，这是一种不同的对话，涉及不同的问题，结果证明我不必参与同一件事。
So that is a different conversation with different questions, and it turns out I don't have to be in the same thing.
因此，气候变化狂热者和想成为优秀艺术家的人，他们可以在同一个小组里，因为他们并非在合作各自生活的具体内容。
So the climate change fanatic and the person who wants to become a fine artist, they can be in the same group because they're not collaborating on the content of their lives.
他们是在合作生活的意图，也就是关于'成为'。
They're collaborating on the intent of their lives, which is becoming.
所以，当我们让人们建立允许'成为'发生的关系时——你只需要做一个有思想、有自我意识的人——事情就会发生。
So when we set people in relationships that allow becoming to occur, which all you need to be as a thoughtful, self aware person, stuff happens.
那么对于那些可能无法加入这个斯坦福小组，但又非常想建立一个类似的塑造性社群并专注于自我成长的人，有什么建议吗？
And so for folks that maybe can't join this Stanford group but really wanna form a similar formative community and focus on becoming, any tips?
简单的答案是，坦率地说，提出一些能引发思考的问题。
The simple answer is, frankly, come up with some generative questions.
我在感恩节就这么做了。
I did this at Thanksgiving.
实际上我过了三个感恩节。
I actually had three Thanksgivings.
在所有的晚餐中，我都带了三个问题。
And in all the dinners, I brought three questions.
这些问题具有启发性，而不是功利性或娱乐性的。
And those questions were formative, not transactional or entertainment.
一个是：天啊，这个世界最近充满了太多丑陋的东西。
One was, boy, the world's kinda full of a lot of ugly things these days.
你最近有没有因为看到某人做了一件好事而感到惊讶，从而重新燃起了你对人性的信心？
When were you recently surprised by someone doing something good that restored your faith in humanity?
猜猜怎么样？
And guess what?
每个人都给出了答案。
Everybody had an answer.
我甚至直接问：今年你成为了怎样的人？或者明年你希望成为怎样的人？
I even asked directly, what have you become this year, or what are you hoping to become next year?
你知道吗，大概十个人里有两个人会说：哇哦。
And, you know, maybe two out of 10 people were like, woah.
这有点太过了。
That's a little much.
你知道吗？
You know?
但十个人里有八个会说，哦，好吧，你知道，我正在成为的是。
But eight out of 10 went, oh, well, you know, what I'm becoming is.
另一个问题是，你心里是否有一封需要寄出的信？
And the other is, is there a letter in you that needs to get out?
如果是这样，那是什么，又是写给谁的？
And if so, what is it, and who's it to?
这些都是关于成长的问题，而人们出乎意料地愿意回答。
And those are all becoming kinds of questions, and people are surprisingly available.
所以，如果你想建立一个更具塑造性的社群，关键在于提出更好的问题。
So the key thing, if you wanna start forming a more formative community, is have better question.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一直以来我们常常搞错的事情。
This is something that I think we get wrong all the time.
像尼克·伊普利这样的人所做的研究显示，我们常常在聚餐时，比如感恩节或节日聚餐时，提出一些肤浅的问题。
There's such a lovely work by folks like Nick Epley that find that we often go for shallow questions, especially for at a dinner party, something like Thanksgiving or a holiday meal or something.
但真正能引起人们共鸣的回答，往往是这些所谓的深层问题——那些涉及脆弱性的问题，我认为它们具备很多‘转变型问题’的特征。
But really what people resonate with answering are these so called deep questions, questions that are vulnerable, which I think have a a lot of features of these becoming questions.
对吧？
Right?
你想要分享的是哪些情绪？
What are these emotions that you wanna share?
我们怎样才能以不同的方式聚焦问题？
How can we focus things in a different way?
你怎样才能换一个角度思考？
How can you take a different perspective?
你怎样才能重新定义，以借鉴设计师的思维方式？
How can you reframe to steal the designer's thinking?
似乎我们在社会科学中早就知道这一点，但我们可以真正将其应用于融入流动状态，并找到这些意义建构的时刻。
Seems like we've known this in social science for a while, but we can really apply it to becoming more in the flow world and finding these moments of meaning making.
人们渴望以有意义的方式彼此互动。
People wanna have the experience of interacting with each other in meaningful ways.
所以想想一种温和地表达的方式。
So think of think of a way to say something kindly.
准备好你自己的故事。
Have your own story ready to go.
不要让话题只围绕你自己。
Don't make it be about you.
但如果你想深入交流，先跳进泳池里。
But if you wanna get in the deep water, jump in the pool first.
我相信你会感到惊讶。
And I think you'll be surprised.
如果你给他们机会，人们彼此之间其实都很友善。
People are pretty good to each other if you give them a chance.
他们迫切需要这样的对话和这类社群，对吧？孤独症流行问题就是如此。
And they're desperate for these conversations and these kinds of communities, right, the loneliness epidemic.
他们不会在社交媒体上找到这些。
They're not gonna find it on social media.
他们也不会在其他地方找到，你知道的，那些人们一直在思考如何改善生活的地方。
They're not gonna find it in these other places, you know, where people are trying to think about how can I improve my life?
我能做些什么来让它变得更好？
What can I do to make it better?
摆脱这些功能失调的信念，拥抱这些意义构建的时刻，建立社群，而不是陷入回音室、争论和所有其他正在发生的事情。
Getting rid of these dysfunctional beliefs, leaning into these meaning making moments, and creating communities instead of echo chambers and arguing and all this other stuff that's going on.
你知道，戴夫是个虔诚的耶稣信徒，而我也是个虔诚的耶稣信徒。
You know, Dave is a big Jesus guy, and I'm a big, you know, Jesus guy.
我们在这项工作上已经合作了二十多年，这是我经历过的最好的合作。
We've been collaborating for twenty some years on this work, and it's the best collaboration I've ever had.
所以，你不必在所有事情上都达成一致才能进行合作，尤其是当合作的目标是成为最好的自己时。
So you don't have to agree on things in order to be in a collaboration, particularly if the collaboration is about how to become the best version of yourself.
怀着这样的意图，去做任何事情。
And with that intention, do anything.
创办一个读书俱乐部。
Start a book club.
开办一个沙龙，让人们聚在一起，每个人都可以提出一个问题，但问题不能涉及交易领域。
Start a salon where people get together and everybody gets to ask one question, but the questions can't be in the transaction world.
这是唯一的规则。
That's the only rule.
非常感谢你找到了方法，让我们能发现更多这样的意义时刻，并且以一种我认为能真正引起所有感到困顿的人共鸣的方式来实现——不是通过塞进更多东西，而是从我们已经拥有的时刻中汲取更多。
So thank you so much for figuring out ways that we can find a few more of these moments of meaning and for doing it in a way that I think really resonates with everybody that's feeling stuck right now, which is not by cramming more in, but getting more out of the moments that we already have.
嗯，谢谢。
Well, thanks.
顺便提一下，这里有个小小的补充说明。
And here's a little PS, by the way.
在我们回避'你生命的意义是什么'这个问题时。
While we duck the question, what is the meaning of your life?
让我们在途中更富有意义地生活。
And let's just live more meaningfully along the way.
让我们在通往未来任何发现的路上，更富有目标地生活。
Let's live more purposefully on the way to whatever we're gonna find later.
事实证明，如果你擅长这件事，生命的意义会更快、更清晰地浮现出来。
It turns out if you get good at this stuff, that meaning of life thing is gonna come into view a lot more soon and a lot more clearly.
弄清楚生命的意义很难，但我希望这一集能让你相信，即使在感觉不到的时候，生活中依然有无数种方式可以找到意义。
Figuring out the meaning of life is hard, but I hope that this episode has convinced you that there's plenty of ways to find meaning in life even when it doesn't feel like it.
如果你感到停滞不前，为什么不试着这周主动去拥抱一些新的有意义的时刻呢？
If you're feeling stuck, why not commit to turning towards some new moments of meaning this week?
如果你想获得更多关于如何做到这一点的建议，可以看看比尔和戴夫的新书《如何过上有意义的生活》，这本书本周刚刚上市。
And if you want even more advice about how to do that, check out Bill and Dave's new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life, which is out this week.
关于2026年如何摆脱困境的系列节目到这里就结束了。
That's a wrap on our series about getting unstuck in 2026.
你觉得怎么样？
What'd you think?
为什么不告诉我们呢？
Why not let us know?
你可以发送邮件至 happinesslab@pushkin.fm，或者留下评论告诉我们你喜欢什么。
You can email us at happinesslab@pushkin.fm, or leave us a review to tell us what you liked.
你还可以在我们的网站 doctorlauriesantos.com 上订阅我的免费通讯，了解更多关于幸福科学的内容。
You can also sign up to learn more about the science of happiness with my free newsletter on my website, doctorlauriesantos.com.
网址是 drlauriesantos.com。
That's drlauriesantos.com.
我们下周一将回归，恰逢情人节，推出全新的关于爱的科学系列。
We'll be back next week just in time for Valentine's Day with a new series on the science of love.
在第一集中，我们将探讨我们对爱的误解。
In our first episode, we'll explore what we get wrong about love.
我们将了解为什么他人给予的爱有时并未在情感上被我们感知，以及我们该如何打开心扉去接纳它。
We'll learn why the love we get from others doesn't always register emotionally and what we can do to open ourselves up to it.
我们值得被爱。
We can be loved.
你知道吗，我们生活中可能有这么多人客观上爱着我们，但我们却并没有真正感受到他们的爱，或者没有感受到我们所期望的那种爱
You know, we can have all these people in our lives that kind of objectively love us, but we don't actually feel loved by them or maybe not feel loved by them as much as we want
去被爱。
to be.
下周在《幸福实验室》，由劳里·桑托斯博士为您带来下一期内容。
That's next week on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.
你有没有想过，能否得到一个清晰、有科学依据的答案来解答人生中最棘手的问题？
Ever wish you could get one clear science backed answer to life's hardest questions?
比如，如何停止拖延、作为成年人交朋友，或者找到自己的人生目标？
Like how do you stop procrastinating, make friends as an adult, or figure out your purpose?
在《已解决》这档节目中，畅销书作者马克·曼森正是为你提供这样的答案。
That's exactly what you get on Solved with best selling author Mark Manson.
如果你喜欢了解我们为何如此思考、感受和行为背后的科学原理，那你一定应该听听这档节目。
If you enjoy understanding the science behind why we think, feel, and behave the way we do, you should give it a listen.
每一集都会探讨一个我们所有人都在挣扎的大问题——幸福、拖延、比较、韧性，并深入研究研究究竟揭示了哪些切实有效的解决方法。
Each episode explores one big question we all struggle with, happiness, procrastination, comparison, resilience, and looks at what the research actually says can help.
它深思熟虑、基于证据，充满实用的见解，而且出人意料地有趣。
It's thoughtful, evidence based, full of practical insights, and surprisingly entertaining.
只需在您收听播客的任何平台搜索“Solved with Mark Manson”，或访问 solvedpodcast.com。
Just search for solved with Mark Manson wherever you get your podcasts or visit solvedpodcast.com.
这是 iHeart 播客，百分百真人制作。
This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human.
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