如何从浪漫喜剧电影中学习

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

大家好，我是肯德拉·阿达奇。我的节目《懒人天才播客》会帮助你：在重要的事情上成为天才，在不重要的事情上保持懒散——而由你来决定什么才是重要的。我不是来告诉你该做什么，而是为你提供新的视角。节目里充满充满温情的时间管理技巧，以及允许你按照自己心意行事的建议。

Hey there. I'm Kendra Adachi, and my show, the lazy genius podcast, helps you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't, and you get to decide what matters. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to give you a new way to see. Episodes of the lazy genius podcast are full of compassionate time management tips and permission slips to do what makes sense for you.

新节目每周一更新。请在Odyssey免费应用或任何你获取播客的平台关注收听《懒人天才播客》。

New episodes drop every Monday. Follow and listen to the lazy genius podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

普希金。

Pushkin.

你从哪儿学到约会准则的？高中同学？兄姐？还是母亲？我们大多渴望美满的恋爱关系，却很少获得关于如何结识并绑定人生伴侣的可靠建议。生物课或许教过生理知识，但肯定没教过如何应对初次约会或化解重大婚姻矛盾。说实话，我们的恋爱指南多来自泰勒·斯威夫特的歌曲，以及本期专家嘉宾重点研究的素材——浪漫喜剧电影。

Where did you learn the do's and don'ts of dating? From your high school friends, an older sibling, your mom? Many of us long for a happy romantic relationship, but we don't always get reliable advice about how to meet and bond with a potential life partner. You might have learned about the birds and the bees in biology class, but I bet you didn't get much instruction about how to navigate a first date or diffuse your first big marital fight. If we're being honest, a lot of our relationship advice comes from Taylor Swift songs, and the research material my expert guest in this episode focus on a lot, rom com movies.

我们会探讨如何开启恋情，也会讨论如何维系感情。基本上涵盖整个情感光谱。

And we'll probably talk about, like, initiating relationships, but also maintaining them. We'll just, like, cover the whole gamut.

差不多吧。

Kinda. Yeah.

好的。好的。太棒了。没问题。

Okay. Okay. Great. Alright.

西北大学的伊莱·芬克尔和加州大学戴维斯分校的保罗·伊斯特威克都是世界知名的关系专家。他们最近推出了一档名为《爱情真相》的播客，探讨浪漫喜剧对人类真实寻爱过程的正确与误解。伊莱和保罗通过分析《独领风骚》《爱乐之城》和《当哈利遇到莎莉》等电影情节，将其与实际的爱情科学研究进行对比。他们的目标是区分事实与虚构。因此，为了庆祝情人节，我特意邀请伊莱和保罗参与本期节目，作为我们‘如何学习’系列——我们称之为‘如何从浪漫喜剧电影中学习’的一部分。

Eli Finkel of Northwestern University and Paul Eastwick from UC Davis are both world renowned relationship experts. They've recently launched a podcast called love factually, which explores what rom coms get right and wrong about how humans really find love. Eli and Paul turned to films like clueless, la la land, and when Harry met Sally to compare their plots to the actual scientific research on love. Their goal is to figure out the facts from the fiction. So in honor of Valentine's Day, I just had to include Eli and Paul in this episode in our how to season, which we are calling how to learn from a rom com movie.

虽然我知道伊莱和保罗的学术资历无可挑剔，但他们真的是浪漫喜剧电影的专家吗？只有一种方法能验证。

Now I know Eli and Paul's academic credentials are top notch, but are they really experts on rom com movies? There's only one way to find out.

所以发现

So having found out that

你们两位都对此感兴趣后，我的制作人决定临时搞个小测验，来个惊喜的浪漫喜剧问答。

you all were both into this stuff, my producer decided to make an impromptu quiz, surprise rom com quiz.

哦，不错。真不错。

Oh, nice. Nice.

最佳台词。最著名的台词。

Best quotes. Most famous quotes.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

我要给你读一段浪漫喜剧或浪漫戏剧的台词，看看你是否知道它出自哪部电影。

So I'm gonna read you a rom com or rom dram quote, and I would just wanna see if you know which movie it's from.

我们要抢答吗？比如，比比看谁先猜出来？

Should we buzz in? Like, should we compete to see who gets it first?

好啊，来看看。第一题，我只是一个站在

Yeah. Let's see. Okay. Number one, I'm just a girl standing

男孩面前的女孩。

in front of a boy.

《诺丁山》。非常感谢。

Nodding Hill. Thank you very much.

什么？抢答器不算数吗？那抢答器是干嘛用的？

What? And the buzzer doesn't even count? What about the buzzer?

哦，该死。

Oh, fuck.

我会继续玩剩下的部分

I am playing the rest

这场游戏我带着抗议玩下去。是的。好吧。我想我们为保罗赢了一局。

of this game under protest. Yes. Okay. Well, I think we got one for Paul.

那句话因为没说完，我完整引用一下。原话是：我只是一个站在男孩面前，请求他爱我的女孩。伊莱，你想解释下这句话的背景吗，毕竟你也——嗯。

That that quote in case because we didn't finish it, I'll give the whole quote. It was, I'm just a girl standing in front of a boy asking him to love her. Eli, do wanna give context for that quote since you also Yeah.

这是个动人的场景。我是说，《诺丁山》，对吧？很多人会记得。这是介于剧情片和浪漫喜剧之间的类型。

It's it's a lovely scene. I mean, not Notting Hill. Right? A lot of people will remember this. It's something between a drama and a com in the rom category.

算是浪漫喜剧吧。她是著名的美国女演员，爱上了一个普通的英国男人。剧情围绕她是否高攀了他展开。最后有个非常脆弱的坦白时刻，她重新出现在他家门口。这故事无关地位差距，而是展现她和我们一样脆弱，她爱着他，只是希望得到爱的回应。

It's a rom, rom, com, I guess. She's famous American actress, and, she's in love with some, like, everyday English guy. And there's, you know, some consternation about whether she's out of his league and so forth. And at the end, you get this really vulnerable open moment where she shows back up at his door, and, you know, it's not really a story about her being out of his league or what their status is in the broader world. It's she's a vulnerable person just like the rest of us, and she's in love with him and is just hopeful that that he returns the love.

当然很美，因为她是朱莉娅·罗伯茨，这本身就够棒的。

And it's beautiful, of course, because she's Julia Roberts, and that's kinda awesome.

好的，接下来是第二项。我想我们就采用保罗规则，知道答案的人尽快抢答。抗议。抗议。

Okay. Moving on to number two. And I guess we'll use Paul rules where you just jump in and say it if you know it as quickly as possible. Protest. Protest.

那些是

Those are

保罗规则，真有意思。

Paul rules. That's funny.

好的，第二项。第二项。你看我对鞋子有多挑剔，它们只穿在我脚上。

Okay. Number two. Number two. You see how picky I am about my shoes, and they only go on my feet.

哦，我们做过这个，保罗。这是《我恨你的十件事》里的，对吧？

Oh, we did this one, Paul. This is ten ten things I hate about you. Right?

不，不。这是《独领风骚》里的。

No. No. This is clueless.

叮。叮。叮。耶。是的。

Ding. Ding. Ding. Yay. Yes.

毫无头绪。好吧。

Clueless. Okay.

好的。继续。继续。继续。第三题。

Okay. Moving on. Moving on. Moving on. Number three.

爱意味着永远不必说抱歉。

Love means never having to say you're sorry.

我怎么就想不起来这句话最初出自哪里？

How am I not remembering what this is from originally?

老实说，我好像从没看过这部作品。

I have to be honest. I don't think I've ever seen this.

这是老派经典啊。

This is old school.

对。这是《爱情故事》里的台词，对吧？

Yeah. This is love story. Right?

没错。叮。叮。叮。非常棒。

Yeah. Ding. Ding. Ding. Very good.

干得好，保罗。是的。

Nice job, Paul. Yeah.

但我其实...其实我从未看过。我...我...我在此承认这一点。

But I I've actually I've actually never seen it. I'm I'm I'm here I am admitting this.

好的。那将成为新的一集内容。好的。第四条，没人能把宝贝放在角落。

Okay. That'll be a new episode. Okay. Number number four, nobody puts baby in a corner.

行吧。我选这个。《辣身舞》。很棒的选择。这是一部非常可爱的电影。

Alright. I'll take it. This is dirty dancing. It's a great one. It's a and a totally adorable movie.

我抱着西瓜。那部电影里有各种精彩瞬间。

I carried the watermelon. All sorts of great moments in that one.

是的。好吧。我们正在讨论浪漫喜剧，看起来可能有点傻。但你们在这个新播客中确实提出了我们可以从浪漫喜剧中学到一些非常重要的东西。伊莱，解释一下为什么这么说。

Yeah. Okay. So we're we're talking about rom coms, and it seems kinda silly. But but you all in this new podcast have really argued that we can learn something really important from rom coms. Eli, explain why that is.

我们发现浪漫喜剧很有趣，它们属于娱乐范畴，剧情片也是。对吧？它们都是娱乐产品。但事实上，这些电影都承载着某些信息。

Well, what we realized is that rom coms are fun. They're entertainment, and and the dramas too. Right? They're entertainment. And the fact is that these movies contain messages.

这些电影或隐或显地传递着关于人际关系运作的信息。由于电影的影响力巨大，我们可以将其视为注入集体心理的文化讯息。其中有些信息是准确的——当我们审视时会思考：这是真实的吗？这确实反映了现实人际关系的运作方式吗？

They contain implicitly or explicitly messages about how relationships work. And due to the fact that films are so influential, we can think of them as as messages that are injected into the cultural psyche. And some of these messages are accurate. That is some of these messages, when we consider them, we say, like, is that true? Is that an accurate way of thinking about how relationships actually work?

世界上大多数人并不知道存在'关系科学'这个研究领域，学者们会收集相关证据。所以我们觉得对好莱坞作品进行事实核查会很有趣，看看这些

Most people in the world don't realize there's a field called relationship science where people collect evidence on these things. So we thought it would be fun to fact check Hollywood and to say these are

电影传递的信息究竟在多大程度上与实证证据相符。而且我认为，当电影出现错误时反而特别有意思。因为很多时候，这能形成强烈对比——银幕上那些看似非常直觉化的情节（往往是我们见过无数次的套路），但我们可以指出：研究表明实际情况并非如此。

the message that the movies are are sending and to what degree do these messages actually align with the evidence. And I think too that sometimes it's really exciting when the movies are getting it wrong. Yeah. Because many times, that's a great way to set up a contrast between something that feels very intuitive when you see it on screen. Often, it's these tropes that we've seen many, many times, but it's kinda handy to be able to say, you know, we know from these kinds of studies that it doesn't actually work this way or it doesn't usually work this way.

最令人兴奋的是，我们既能肯定电影做得好的部分，也能指出它们的谬误，这种双重可能性很有价值。

And there was something about the realization that we could do both, point out what they're doing well, but also point out what they're getting wrong that seemed pretty exciting.

我知道有些电视节目，比如历史上的《幸存者》，会聘请心理学顾问。还有像《头脑特工队》这样的电影系列，肯定聘请过许多著名心理学家担任顾问。

So I know there's some kinds of TV shows, like, historically, shows like survivor have had these, like, psychology consultants that come in. You know? And even some movies like Inside Out, that franchise definitely has lots of famous psychologists that consult.

没错。

Yeah.

你知道浪漫喜剧和浪漫剧情片会这样做吗？

Do you know if, like, rom coms and rom drams do this?

我不清楚。保罗，我记得有一集我们开玩笑说，好像他们片场有个超棒的顾问，然后我俩都嫉妒那个假想的工作。

I'm not aware of it. Paul, I think there was one episode where we joked that, like, it almost seemed like they had a great adviser on set, and then both of us were jealous of that hypothetical job.

对。我记得是在《她》那集里。编剧兼导演斯派克·琼斯对人们如何建立亲密关系有深刻见解。如果让那个人没有实体呢？难道不能同样自然流畅地展现吗？

Yeah. I mean, it was I think it was with the her episode. Spike Jones, the writer director, really had these sharp insights about how people build intimacy. And, well, what if you just made that person not have a body? Couldn't you do it just as well and just as seamlessly?

但我不认为他们非得咨询科学家。很多时候这些见解是他们自己产生的。

But I I don't think anybody is necessarily going to scientists for this. I think a lot of times they're generating these insights on their own.

那谈谈我们对爱情和浪漫的认知吧。如果要你估计，我们的判断有多少是准确的，多少是不准确的，研究结果会显示什么？

And talk to me about what we know about our own insights when it comes to love and romance. You know, if you had to guess kinda how much we're accurate versus how much we're inaccurate, you know, what would the findings show?

这是个五五开的问题。有时候人们在关系方面确实有很好的洞察力和直觉。总的来说，多数人明白关系需要一定程度的脆弱性、自我表露和相互妥协。这是建立关系的基础，也是维持长期亲密的关键。我们在电影里也常看到这点。

You know, it's a fifty fifty proposition. I think there are some times when people have really good insights and instincts when it comes to relationships. I think generally speaking, most people recognize that relationships require a certain amount of vulnerability and a certain amount of self disclosure and give and take. And that's gonna be required to build a relationship in the first place, and it's gonna be required to sustain closeness over time. So this is one area, and we see this in the films too.

电影把这方面表现得很好。无论是开始新关系还是维持现有关系，这个主题都传达得相当到位。

They do a pretty good job of making this clear. Right? Whether you're talking about people initiating relationships with each other or you're talking about people maintaining a relationship, that is a message that comes through fairly well.

是的。我是说，有很多电影在这方面做得非常出色。第一季中我们讨论过的《爱在黎明破晓前》就是其中之一，这部电影讲述的是——可能观众们已经熟悉这个故事——两个人在欧洲的欧铁通票列车上相遇，临时决定下车，在维也纳共度一晚。基本上，整部电影就是他们在城市中漫步交谈。影片精彩捕捉的，正是人们彼此倾诉私密信息的过程。

Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of movies that do this really effectively. And and one of the movies that we had in season one is before sunrise, which is basically a movie that's about again, your audience may be familiar with this, but two people meet on a train on a Ural Pass basically in in Europe and spontaneously get off the train and then spend the evening together in Vienna. And, basically, it's a film about them walking around the city and talking to each other. And what the film captures beautifully, among other things, is this process through which people confide intimate information with each other.

我们如何从陌生人开始，然后我逐渐了解你的一些事，你也逐渐了解我的一些事。这部电影尤其美妙之处在于，它将整个关系建立的过程——这种相互了解的过程，包括分享非常私密的信息——置于一个加速器中。我认为人们对此确实有不错的直觉，而电影通常能准确呈现亲密关系在现实中发展的过程。

How we start as strangers, and then I get to know a little bit about you. You get to know a little bit about me. And the beautiful thing about that movie in particular is that it puts that whole relationship initiation process, this process of getting to know each other, including really intimate information in a turbocharger. And, again, that's something that I think people do have decent instincts about this, and and the films generally get right, the process through which intimacy generally develops in relationships.

那么让我们深入探讨这个系列，因为如果要选出几部真正把握了关系科学的浪漫喜剧或浪漫剧情片，《爱在黎明破晓前》《爱在日落黄昏时》系列绝对是其中之一。艾利，你...

And so let's dive into that franchise because this actually is one of the kinda if you had to pick a few tips that you've learned from rom coms and rom drams that really get relationship science right, It seems like the before sunrise, before sunset franchise is one of those. Eli, do you

要不要简单概括下《爱在日落黄昏时》的剧情？

wanna do a quick plot summary on before sunset?

我超爱这部电影。第一季我们只讨论了《黎明破晓前》，但为录制本期节目我重温了整个三部曲。简而言之，第一部中他们相识共度一夜，约定再次相见，电影在此结束。

I love this movie. It's not something that we did in season one. We just did before sunrise in season one, but I did watch all three in advance of our episode. And in brief, in the first movie, they get to know each other, and they spend the night together, and then they make this plan to meet up again. And that's basically where the first movie ends.

第二部中，由伊桑·霍克饰演的杰西正在巴黎进行新书巡演。当他在书店活动时，赛琳突然出现。我们得知他当年迟到了六个月赴约，而她因祖母去世未能前往。于是他将这段经历写成书，此刻正在巡回宣传。

Second movie, and he, Jesse, played by Ethan Hawke, is on a book tour. And he's on a book tour in Paris. And then while he's doing an event at a bookstore, Celine walks in. And what we discover is he had arrived six months later when he was supposed to, and she couldn't because her grandmother had passed away. And so he had written a book about their experience, and now he's on this tour.

接下来的剧情里，他们漫步在另一座欧洲城市。我不想剧透结局，但电影的张力在于他当晚必须赶回美国的航班——第二部片名《日落黄昏时》即暗示这点。她不断提醒'你要错过航班了'，而他们却在绝佳的环境中展开着精彩对话。

And then the rest of that movie, now they're walking around a different European city. And, you know, I don't wanna ruin the end, but the the tension in the movie is that he has a flight back to The States that leaves that evening, right, before sunset is the second movie. And she keeps saying, you're about to miss your plane. You're about to miss your plane, and they're having these amazing conversations in these amazing settings.

在这个过程中，他们重新审视和反思了许多重大的人生决定，并目睹这一过程——当人们要彻底改变生活时，通常需要花费数月时间。但现在我们将看到这一切在极短的时间内发生。是的，从很多方面看这是同样的构想，但此刻我们正见证着全然不同的关系进程以极快的速度展开。

And reconsidering and revisiting many of their major life decisions in the process and to watch, again, a process that when people are gonna upend their lives, they usually take, I don't know, a few months to do it. But now we're gonna see that whole thing happen in a very compressed period of time. Yeah. So it's in many ways the same conceit, but now we're seeing this whole different relationship process happening very, very fast.

好吧。所以我试着猜测，我应该从中领悟到什么关于感情关系的重要启示。对吧？

Okay. So I'm trying to guess what the major correct relationship insight I'm supposed to take from this. Right?

你知道的，比如和伊桑·霍克一起游览欧洲城市。在二十四小时内彻底颠覆你的生活。

You know, visit European cities with Ethan Hawke. Like, upend your life in twenty four hours.

就是这样。

That's it.

我是说，那会是个不错的选择。如果...如果这个机会对你开放的话，我会推荐它，或者朱莉·德尔佩也很棒。这部电影很微妙，这是该系列的第二部《日落之前》。它的微妙之处在于存在一个有趣的道德困境——此时男主角已经结婚并有了儿子。

I mean, that would be a good one. Like, if if if, you know, it is an opportunity that's available to you, I'd recommend it, or or Julie Delpy would be great too. I mean, that movie is tricky. This is, again, the second movie in the in the series, the before sunset film. And the reason why it's tricky is it has this really interesting moral complication is that he, by this point, has gotten married and has a son.

所以当保罗提到这些重大人生决定如何迅速发生时，杰西并未料到赛琳会出现在他的读书会上。他以为她永远消失了，于是建立了另一种生活。而在巴黎街头漫步的几个小时里，他基本上颠覆了这一切。这次与第一部电影截然不同，而第三部电影又探讨了新的主题——当他们四十多岁并共同组建家庭时的故事。这三部电影都涉及这类人生抉择。

And so when Paul talks about how these major life decisions are happening quickly, Jesse didn't realize that Celine was gonna show up at this reading. He thought she was gone forever, and he built this alternative life. And then over a course of a few hours of walking around Paris has basically uprooted all of it. Now for a second time in a really different sort of way to from the first movie, and the third movie engages with something different when they're now in their forties and have a family together. And and all three of the films deal with those sorts of things.

好吧。那么这里关于感情关系的启示到底是什么呢？

Okay. So what's what's the relationship insight here, though?

是的。所以我认为如果要从这些电影中吸取教训，那就是任何程度的深度自我表露，只要与他人进行，都能建立深厚的亲密感，并有可能促成紧密联系。不过再次强调，若你想维持现有关系，就要谨慎选择倾诉对象，因为表面上可能只是无害地相互了解，漫步在这座美丽的欧洲城市里。但不知不觉间，你可能会开始深刻质疑自己的人生选择。上世纪九十年代阿特·亚伦做过一项著名研究，常被称为'36个问题实验'。

Yeah. So I think if if one is gonna take a lesson from these movies, it's that any amount of intense self disclosure that you're gonna get into with somebody is going to build a lot of intimacy and has the potential to build a connection. Although, again, if you're in a relationship that you'd like to keep, then be careful who you're doing that with because it might seem like, oh, we're just, like, harmlessly getting to know each other, strolling around this gorgeous European city. And before you know it, you are now really questioning some of your life choices. There is a really famous study by Art Aaron back in the nineties, often called the 36 question study.

他的方法是让陌生两人配对，依次回答这些逐步加深的问题——问题强度递增，越来越能引发亲密感与脆弱性。研究以显著效果表明：经过60-90分钟这个过程，能让两个人真正喜欢上彼此。这当然很棒，如果你想建立新关系，这些都是好建议。但如果你不想发展新关系，就务必谨慎使用这种方法。

But what he does is he takes unacquainted pairs, gives them these questions which escalate in intensity, escalate in the degree to which they elicit intimacy and vulnerability. And what he shows with enormous effect sizes is you can get two people to really like each other if they go through this sixty to ninety minute process. So, again, that's great. If you're looking to build a relationship, those are good tips. You know, you're not looking to build a new relationship, be really careful with how you do that.

亚伦研究让我特别欣赏的一点是，它提醒我们：与长期伴侣同样可以持续建立这种深度联结。

So one of the things I love about the Aaron study is that you forget that you can continue building that relationship with a long term partner.

我是说，我觉得其中

I mean, I think one of

一个原因是关系常陷入乏味，正是因为我们不再展现脆弱性，那些袒露心事的时刻随着时间

the reasons relationships kind of often fall into kind of boringness is that we're not doing that vulnerability, that sort of moments of disclosure they kind of fall by the

逐渐消失——当你与某人相处五年、十年、二十年之后。你觉得

wayside when you've been with somebody five years, ten years, twenty years. Do you think

我们能用类似技巧来经营现有关系吗，伊莱？

we can use that same kind of technique, Eli, for kind of building current relationships?

简短的回答是我认为是这样，但完整的答案是我们并不确定。因为问题在于人们为何逐渐减少这种行为？我认同你的前提——人们后期确实不再如此频繁。一种可能是如你所言，他们分心了或不再给予同等优先级的重视。

The brief answer is I think so, but the full answer is I don't think we know. Because the question is why do people stop doing this as much? I assure your premise. People don't do this as much later on. One possibility is what you're suggesting that, you know, they they get distracted or they just don't prioritize it to the same degree.

另一种可能是经过二十年相处，我们已相当了解彼此。因此那种存在待探索的未知深潭的想法变得难以实现。但即便如此，总有更多可了解之处。事物总有新视角，比如观看发人深省的电影后展开讨论。这些可能性始终向我们敞开。

Another possibility is we know quite a bit about each other after twenty years. And so this idea that there's some, like, big well of discovery to start exploring makes it tricky. But nonetheless, there's always more to know. There's always more sort of new perspectives on things or, going, for example, to a thought provoking film and discussing it. These options are always, always, always available to us.

所以我认为某种程度上，在真正了解彼此之前更容易有重大发现；同时我们也会陷入窠臼，养成惰性习惯，不再费心重燃那些高强度、高情感浓度的体验。

So I think it's a little bit in the column of it's easier to have big discovery before you really know each other, and also we get into ruts and sort of lazy habits and don't bother to try to rekindle some of these high intensity, high emotion sorts of experiences.

我认为这项研究另一个重要启示在于，那种

I think another great thing that we learned from this study is the fact that that kind

自我表露实际上具有积极意义。我们许多人误以为暴露自己的混乱面可能令人不适，但显然

of self disclosure is actually positive. I think so many of us have the misconception that, like, kind of sharing our messiness might be yucky, but, of course,

社会学家早已提出过'美丽混乱效应'。对吧？保罗，这个效应是什么？它在此情境如何体现？

social scientists have talked about this beautiful mess effect. Right? Paul, what's that effect, and kinda how does it play out here?

确实。人们初次建立印象时，总希望展现完美形象，倾向于自我推销。但这些本能往往严重失策。

Yeah. So people often when they're trying to make an initial impression on somebody, they want that impression to be good. They want to come across perfectly. They want to self promote. And often those instincts are really misguided.

正如你所说，人们真正在最初时刻被吸引的，是那种小小的凌乱感，一点点脆弱感，你知道，就像那个经典研究所示。对吧？那个有点笨手笨脚的人最终比那个完美无缺的人更讨人喜欢。这些都是我们如何让自己显得开放、易于接近的例子，同时也让我们变得有趣。

What people really find appealing in those early moments is, like you put it, a little bit of messiness, a little bit of vulnerability, you know, old classic study. Right? The person who's kind of a klutz ends up being more appealing than the person who's fully put together. And these are examples of how we can make ourselves open and seem approachable to another person. And it also makes us interesting.

我是说，一个完美无缺的人其实并没有太多有趣之处。你懂吗？不清楚他们为什么会对我们感兴趣，因为他们已经完美无缺了。所以，展现一点脆弱感反而为更深层次的连接创造了机会，就像电影里经常表现的那样。而有时我们在约会中陷入简历交换模式时，往往会忽略这一点。

I mean, there actually isn't a lot that's very interesting about somebody who's fully put together. You know? It's it's not clear why they would be interested in us because they're fully put together. So having a little bit of vulnerability opens up an opportunity for more connection in a way that the movies often get right. And sometimes we kind of miss when we get into resume exchange mode on dates.

我必须尽可能表现得好，因为我知道外面有那么多竞争者，我必须成为最优秀的那个。

I gotta come off as good as I can because I know there are all these other competitors out there, and and I gotta be the best.

现在是短暂休息时间，但保罗、伊莱和我很快会回来。过上好生活究竟意味着什么？是关于幸福、目标、爱情、健康还是财富？在追求美好生活的过程中，什么才是真正重要的？这些都是获奖作家、创始人和采访者乔纳森·菲尔兹在他的顶级播客《美好生活项目》中向嘉宾提出的问题。

It's time for a quick break, but Paul, Eli, and I will be back soon. What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a well lived life? These are the questions award winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the top ranked Good Life Project podcast.

每周，乔纳森都会与知名思想家和实践者坐下来交谈，比如亚当·格兰特、格雷琴·鲁宾、安吉拉·达克沃斯等数百位人士。现在就开始收听吧，在你最喜欢的播客应用上搜索《美好生活项目》。

Every week, Jonathan sits down with renowned thinkers and doers, people like Adam Grant, Gretchen Rubin, Angela Duckworth, and hundreds more. Start listening now. Look for Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app.

好的。这就是我们从浪漫喜剧中得到的第一个启示，积极的启示是自我披露通常是件好事。试着多做一些。现在我们要讲到第二个重要建议，它来自一部经典浪漫喜剧，虽然是很久很久以前看的，《当哈利遇到莎莉》。嗯。

Okay. So that was first insight that we get from rom coms, positive insight that self disclosure, often a good thing. Try to promote more of it. Now we're gonna get to big tip number two, which comes from a classic rom com, one that I've seen, although very, very long time ago, When Harry Met Sally. Mhmm.

想要来个《当哈利遇到莎莉》式的两秒钟剧情转折。保罗？

And wants to do the When Harry Met Sally two second plot twist. Paul?

《当哈利遇到莎莉》的故事脉络是这样的：他们初次相遇，彼此并不太喜欢对方。五年后，他们再次相逢。

Here's the arc of When Harry Met Sally. They first meet. They don't like each other very much. Five years pass. They meet again.

他们依然不太合拍。又过了五年，这次他们开始擦出火花。随后几年里，他们建立起真挚的友谊，成为彼此倾诉心事的知己，还尝试为对方介绍自己的朋友约会，但效果都不太理想。

They don't like each other very much. Five years pass again, and now they kinda hit it off. They form this genuine friendship that goes on for a few years, and they go to each other as confidants. They try to set each other up on dates with some of their friends. It doesn't really work out.

但这部电影大部分时间展现的正是这种纯粹的友谊。当然，你知道最终他们会以浪漫方式走到一起——这是浪漫喜剧的套路。但这部电影真正精彩之处在于完美呈现了'从朋友到恋人'的经典模式，即人们通常在建立恋爱关系前已是好友。

But it's a genuine friendship that we see for the majority of that movie. And, of course, you know, there is the rom com trouble if they do get together at the end in a romantic way. Okay. But what this movie nails is what's often called the friends to lovers pathway. The idea that people are commonly good friends before they form a relationship with each other.

这种模式的实际普遍性常被低估。丹·乌斯汀森及其同事的研究表明，约70%的恋爱关系是通过这种途径形成的。电影对此的刻画可谓入木三分。

And it's often underappreciated just how common that pathway is. Some research by Dan Ustinson and colleagues suggest that it's something on the order of 70% of relationships formed through that root. So that's reflected in the movie really well.

很高兴你解释了剧情，因为我一直在想：这和那场高潮戏有关吗？那是我对这部电影唯一的记忆了。

I'm glad you explained what it was about because I was like, does it have to do with the orgasm scene? That's all I remember from the movie.

这部电影还有其他值得记住的场景吗？

Is there any other scene in that movie?

我们该假装高潮吗？还是不该假装？所以我认为关系发展脉络的重要性确实关键。想想我们得到的建议——显然，这种从朋友发展为伴侣的模式是非常理想的一种。

We're supposed to fake our orgasms? Are we supposed to not fake our orgasms? So I think this idea that the arc of the relationship matters is really important. You know, what kind of advice do we get? Are there kind of obviously, this sort of friends to partners arc is a pretty good one.

还有其他值得我们考虑的优秀故事线吗，Eli？

Are there other good arcs that we should think about, Eli?

有时当我们单身并寻找伴侣时，可能会感到困惑——我们该如何

Sometimes when we're single and looking, it can feel like how are

结识新的人呢？

we gonna meet new people?

你知道，我们该去哪里尝试认识新朋友？幸运的是，现在我们只需左右滑动屏幕。当然，这种便利既是幸运也是不幸。我认为我们低估了一点：至少在历史上，直到最近，人际关系并非如此建立。很大程度上，它们仍源于我们现有的社交网络，来自我们已经认识的人。

You know, where are we gonna go to try to meet new people? And luckily, now we can just swipe left and right. And I well, luckily and unluckily, you can do all that stuff. And one of the things that we, I think, underutilized is that that's not the way, at least historically, at least until very recently, that relationships have really begun. And to a significant degree, they still emerge from our existing social networks, from people that we already know.

而且，Paul，你研究过这个，有种观点认为要么是一夜情，要么是我们初次相遇就发展成恋爱关系。这极大简化了关系建立的实际过程，对吧？

And and, Paul, you've studied this a bit, but there's this, like, view that there's the one night stand or that we met and we'd never met before and we started a relationship. And that is just a vast oversimplification of how relationship initiation works. Right?

是的。人们常以为开始一段关系需要准备好精妙的搭讪台词，知道该接近谁，然后三十分钟内就能完成——瞧，我成功建立了关系。

Yeah. I think people often think that the way you start a relationship is you, like, arm yourself with some really good pickup lines, and you know who to approach. And, you know, thirty minutes, start to finish. I did it. I started a relationship.

但事实上，这种能在几分钟甚至几小时内接近某人并唤起对方对你渴望的能力，是罕见且历史上看并不必要的技能。多数人并非如此行事。你需要了解他人，有些人会逐渐吸引你，有些人则不会。

And it's just those skills, the ability to approach somebody and make them experience desire for you in minutes or even hours is a rare and rather unnecessary skill, historically speaking. That wasn't how most people did it. You get to know people. Some people grow on you. Some people don't.

但你身处这些不断变化、扩展的人际网络中，大多数关系正是由此产生。在现代网络交友时代，人们很容易忽视这一点。我认为网络交友让我们误以为需要掌握某些历史上大多数人并不真正需要的技巧。

But you you're within these networks that shift and grow and change, and that's where most relationships come from. It's very easy to lose sight of that in the modern world of online dating. And I think online dating pushes us to think we need these skills that most of us historically have not really needed.

所以对于那些刚开始恋爱关系或处于约会阶段的人来说，这种关系发展轨迹很重要。实际情况与我们想象的并不相同。

So that's for people who are kind of starting out relationships and just sort of dating, this sort of arc kind of matters. It doesn't work the way we think.

长期处于恋爱关系中的人能从这部电影中获得什么启示？

What can people who've been in relationships for a long time take from the movie?

我认为在许多长期关系中，人们会形成关于'我们作为伴侣是谁'、'我们如何成为现在这样'的叙事。这些叙事非常重要——一个连贯积极的叙事确实能预测关系满意度、关系稳定性等指标。同时要记住，关系往往会随着人生阶段而变化，比如有人换了新工作。

I think in a lot of ongoing relationships, people develop these narratives about who we are as a couple, how we came to be this way. And these narratives are really important. I mean, having a coherent and positive narrative definitely predicts things like relationship satisfaction, right, how stable people's relationships are. And it's also important to keep in mind that relationships often change with the seasons too. Somebody takes a new job.

对吧？或许还会有孩子加入这段关系。

Right? Maybe there are kids that come into the relationship.

有人就这样出现，又失去他们。我也不知道是怎么回事。

Somebody just comes by and, lose them. I don't know how that happens.

突然出现。然后又消失。

Show up. Yeah. Drop off.

是的，给你。我为你带来了这个孩子。但关系也会经历这些戏剧性的变化，我认为人们很容易记住并固守早期的叙事模式，关于我们是谁。对吧？

Yeah. Here you go. I got this kid for you. But but relationships go through these dramatic changes too, And I think it's very easy for people to remember and stay locked into their early narratives and patterns about who we are. Right?

我们是那对有趣的夫妇。我们是那对熬夜到很晚的夫妇。现在我们有了一个两岁的孩子。这会让你感觉正在失去自我吗？你正在失去作为夫妇的身份认同，还是可以尝试重新定义你们作为夫妇的身份以适应新的现实？

We are the fun couple. We are the couple that stays out late. And now we have a two year old. And does that make it feel like you're losing yourself? You're losing your identity for who you are as a couple, or can you try to reinvent who you are as a couple to fit the new reality?

这些也是人们面临挑战的地方，他们如何适应这些情况可能非常重要。

These are also places where people have challenges, and and how they adapt to those circumstances can be really important.

你知道，我们在《爱乐之城》中看到了这一点。对吧？这是我认为在《爱乐之城》中不太明显但很有趣的一个方面，塞巴斯蒂安由永远迷人的瑞恩·高斯林饰演。他是一个非常、非常传统的爵士乐爱好者。他正在进行一场拯救传统爵士乐的圣战。

You know, we we saw that in in La La Land. Right? This is this is one of the things that that I think was not obvious in La La Land but was an interesting aspect, which is so Sebastian played by the ever gorgeous Ryan Gosling. He is a very, very traditional jazz enthusiast. He's on this crusade to save traditional jazz.

他最终加入了一个爵士融合乐队，而且相当受欢迎。但由于他一直如此关心传统爵士乐，他的女友米娅，由奥斯卡奖得主艾玛·斯通饰演，无法真正理解他在做什么。所以尽管他现在在这个其他乐队中并有点享受，她却觉得这不是他，她不明白。因此，对电影中发生的事情的一种解读是他改变了，他的目标以她没有真正追踪的方式改变了。因此，她支持的一个目标已经不再是他当前的目标，他们关于彼此是谁的叙事不再适合他们现在改变后的版本。

He then ends up in, like, a jazz fusion band, and it's pretty popular. But because of how much he's always cared about traditional jazz, his girlfriend Mia, played by the Oscar winning Emma Stone, can't really understand what he's doing. So even though now he's in this other band and he's kind of enjoying it, she's like, this isn't you, and I don't get it. And so, you know, one of the interpretations of what happens in that film is that he changed, that his goals changed in ways that she didn't really track. And, therefore, she's supporting one of his goals that's no longer what his current goal is, and their narrative about who each other is is no longer fitting the changed version of who they are now.

那么，有没有什么建议可以更新这些叙事并更好地理解？

And so any advice for how to kind of update those narratives and kind of understand?

一个好的关系治疗师，对吧，一个好的夫妻治疗师会介入，试图让人们解开所有关于为什么我们这样做、为什么我们这样互动最好、为什么我们追求这些目标最好的未说出口的假设。所以解开这一切，把它们摆在桌面上，然后识别，看。这些东西似乎与新现实冲突。我们可以放弃什么？我们可以改变什么？

A good relationships therapist, right, a good couples therapist will come in and will try to get people to unpack all of the unspoken assumptions that people have about why we're doing this thing and why it works best that we interact like this and why it's best that we're pursuing these goals. So to unpack it all, put it on the table, and then identify, look. These things seem to be conflicting with the new reality. What can we take away? What can we change?

我们需要调整什么才能让这些碎片重新契合？这正是婚姻咨询师最擅长的领域。不过，即便没有咨询师协助，你们也可以尝试重新拼凑这些碎片。但这并不容易，因为我们常常会为自己行为或目标的合理性辩护，或是揪住对方多年前说过的话不放。明白吗？所以需要保持一定程度的谦逊、灵活性，以及这种元认知能力——我们到底在为什么而争吵？

What can we alter in order to make these pieces fit again? So this is what couples therapists are really good at. But you don't have to have a couples therapist in order to be able to do some of that rearranging of the pieces, But it's not easy because we're often very defensive about, you know, why we behave this way or why we have this goal or, you know, but you had said this, and we we hold people to things that they said years earlier. You know? And so having some amount of humility and flexibility and the ability to reflect in this meta way about what exactly are we fighting about?

争吵的核心真的是'你晚归而我希望你早点回家'这种具体事件，还是那些与我们现状脱节的宏大目标？有没有什么可以调整的部分能让关系运转得更好？

Is it really about, you know, you stayed out late, but I was expecting you to come home, or is it about these broader goals that we once had that kinda don't fit our current reality? And is there anything here that we can change to make this work better?

现在我们来谈谈爱情喜剧把握准确的第三个诀窍，这个例子来自一部有点另类的电影——《美丽心灵的永恒阳光》。多年前看的片子，现在基本只记得他们好像躺在...

Now we get to tip number three that rom coms get right, and this one is from a kind of oddball movie, I think, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, which I saw many, many years ago, but totally don't remember except they're, like, lying

蒙托克之类的某个海滩上。就是...

on some beach in Montauk or something. That's,

对。

like Yeah.

这就是我对这部电影的全部记忆了。谁愿意用三十秒介绍一下剧情？

The the whole memory I have of this film. Who wants to do the the thirty seconds on it?

说来有趣，你对这部电影的主要体验恰恰是'遗忘'，因为这正是影片的主题。克莱门汀和乔尔这对恋人选择抹除关于彼此的记忆——他们确实这么做了。

Well, I'm delighted that that the main experience you have of this movie is failing to remember it because that is, of course, what the movie is. Right? They they erase their memories of each other. This is Clementine and Joel. They release their they erase their memories of each other.

这部电影传达的其中一个信息与我们刚才讨论的内容相关，即关系是绑定于特定个体的。这不仅仅是说，如果你找到一个在某些维度上与我契合的人，我们就能相处融洽。不，关键在于随着时间的推移对关系的雕琢与构建。这就是当我们谈论关系如同微文化时所指的含义。

And one of the messages that this movie gets to is related to what we were talking about a little bit ago, which is that relationships are tied to a specific person. That that is it's not just that, you know, if you find somebody who matches me on certain dimensions, we're gonna get along. No. It's the sculpting and the building of relationships over time. That's what we mean when we talk about relationships as microcultures.

《美丽心灵的永恒阳光》之所以能精准把握这一点，是因为其中一个角色获取了他人关系中极为私密的细节信息并试图复制，结果却失败了。具体来说，他们正在抹除乔尔·巴瑞什（由金·凯瑞突破性饰演）的记忆，他想忘记与克莱门汀（凯特·温丝莱特饰）的回忆。

And the reason why eternal sunshine of the spotless mind gets this so right is that one of the characters has access to, like, weirdly intimate information about something that happened in somebody else's relationship and then tries to do the same thing and fails. So let me be specific about this. They're erasing Joel Barrish's memory. He's the one played against type by Jim Carrey. He's trying to forget his memories of Clementine who's played by Kate Winslet.

但在记忆删除公司Lacuna Inc.为他清除记忆的过程中，有个令人毛骨悚然的员工（伊利亚·伍德饰）知晓了乔尔所有让克莱门汀倾心的举动——包括昵称、特定时机的礼物等极其有效的细节，且知道她的记忆也被清除了。于是他试图用完全相同的方式追求克莱门汀，却遭遇了彻底的失败。

But in this process of having his memories erased by the company named Lacuna Inc. Who does the memory erasure, one of the really creepy guys who works there now knows everything Joel did with Clementine to get him to like her so much. The things that he did that were just incredibly effective, including nicknames and including which gifts he gave her and when, and he knows that her memory has been erased too. That is this creeper played by Elijah Wood knows that that both of them have had their memories erased. So he tries to go and basically get Clementine doing the things that he knows full well she really dug when Joel did it, and they are colossal fails.

是的。这部电影完美诠释的关键启示在于：关系的成功无法通过复制粘贴实现。你不能说‘我对爱丽丝做的每件事都有效，所以对胡安妮塔也照搬就行’。我们必须根据这段特定关系的真实发展来调整和定制相处方式。

Yeah. And the lesson here, which I think is really crucial and illustrated perfectly in this movie, is that it's not a copy paste way to relationship success. It's not like you can say everything that I did with Alice was effective, and therefore, I'm gonna do the exact same things with, you know, Juanita, and that'll be effective. No. We have to track and tailor what it is we're doing to the, like, authentic growth of this particular relationship.

这不是关于寻找普遍意义上符合我们喜好的人，而是找到那些能与我们共同适应、构建独特有效微文化而非毒性关系的人。人们常将‘策略’一词用于关系的各个阶段——无论是建立还是维系，比如‘要找到让自己有吸引力、让伴侣开心的策略’。虽然我不完全否定这个概念，但它确实具有误导性。

It's not a story about finding people who do the things we like in general. It's finding people who adapt with us in ways that make our own little unique microculture effective rather than, like, venomous. Sometimes people use the term strategic or strategy when it comes to all aspects of relationships, whether it's initiating, whether it's maintaining relationships. Like, oh, you've gotta find the right strategies to make yourself appealing, to make partners happy, etcetera. And I don't wanna throw out that concept entirely, but I do think it is misleading for exactly this reason.

因为对多数人而言，‘策略’意味着学会某种技巧后就能处处适用。但《美丽心灵的永恒阳光》和科学研究的启示告诉我们：吸引每个人的原因各不相同，关系的满足感来自双方共同建构的独特互动。若将旧关系的模式生搬硬套到新关系上，注定行不通。

Because a strategy for most people implies, I'm gonna learn how to do this skill, and then wherever I take this skill, it's gonna be effective. And the lesson we get from eternal sunshine and the lesson that we get from the science too is that that's not really how it works. That what makes one person appeal to us is gonna be totally different from the reasons that somebody else appeals to us. What's gonna make this relationship satisfying and fulfilling, the things we're gonna do to make that happen are jointly co constructed. And if I try to take those ideas and copy paste them onto the next relationship, it's not really gonna work.

或许你可以以此为起点进行调整以适应新伴侣，但妄想开发一套对所有关系都有效的万能策略——《美丽心灵的永恒阳光》显然深知这种思维的谬误。

You know, maybe you can sort of start with that and then alter it and try to make it work with this new person. But the idea that you can develop a set of strategies that's gonna be universally effective across partners, this is this is not a good way to think about it, and Eternal Sunshine seems to know this.

我喜欢这个建议，因为如果你曾有过某种策略或关系中的小文化让你产生共鸣，而前任伴侣对此不感兴趣，这并不意味着它永远不会再奏效。你可能会遇到另一个真正理解你的人，无论是你的幽默感、傻气还是其他特质。所以耐心等待，你的凯特·温斯莱特可能正在某处等着你。

I like this advice because it also seems like if you had some strategy that you kinda liked or maybe part of a relationship microculture that really resonated with you and maybe a former partner wasn't that into it, it it doesn't mean it's never gonna work again. You might find somebody else who kinda really gets that either your humor or your goofiness or whatever it needs to be. So hang tight. Your Kate Winslet might be out there waiting for you. Yeah.

完全正确。人们通常有一些核心需求，希望围绕这些建立关系。我认为这是一种有用的思考方式，比如什么是你的底线，或者这段关系是否适合你，你真正希望与对方在x y z方面产生共鸣。如果难以实现，可能意味着你与这个人无法跨越这个障碍。但我的建议通常是，不要带着强烈预设进入关系，认为对方必须如何做，要相信过程中会有共同构建的部分。

That's exactly right. And people often have core things that they want a relationship to be built around. And I do think that's a useful way of thinking about, like, what your deal breakers might be or whether this relationship doesn't work for you, that you really want to be able to connect with this person over x y z. And if you're having trouble making that happen, that could be something that you can't get past with this particular person. But my advice is often try not to go into it with very strong assumptions about what you need that person to do and assume that there's gonna be some joint construction that's gonna happen along the way.

好的，以上就是我们从浪漫喜剧中得到的积极建议。休息过后，我们将探讨浪漫喜剧中哪些地方是错误的。《幸福实验室》，稍后回来。

Alright. So those were our positive tips from rom coms. So when we get back from the break, we're gonna turn to what rom coms get wrong. Happiness Lab. We'll be right back.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

什么是美好生活？是关于幸福、目标、爱情、健康还是财富？在追求充实人生的过程中，什么才是真正重要的？这些是获奖作家、创始人和访谈者乔纳森·菲尔德在其顶级播客《美好生活计划》中向嘉宾提出的问题。每周，乔纳森都会与知名思想家和实践者对话，如亚当·格兰特、格雷琴·鲁宾、安吉拉·达克沃斯等数百位人士。

What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a well lived life? These are the questions award winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the top ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with renowned thinkers and doers, people like Adam Grant, Gretchen Rubin, Angela Duckworth, and hundreds more.

现在就开始收听吧，在你喜欢的播客应用中搜索《美好生活计划》。

Start listening now. Look for Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app.

我很好奇，当我们开始这部分时，凭借你的关系科学背景，你是否曾在看某部新浪漫喜剧时，看到角色做出某些行为，从科学角度让你忍不住摇头说“不”？你们俩都在点头呢。

So I'm curious as we start this section. With your relationship science background, are you ever, like, you know, in the middle of some new rom com and watching it and then just the the characters do something. And just from a scientific perspective, you're just like, no. Like, no. You're both nodding.

从大家的点头反应来看，这个问题似乎经常被提及。埃利？

It seems like this comes up a lot from the nods I'm seeing. Eli?

是的。我就是这样。我有点

Yes. I do this. I kind

希望自己没有这样。对吧？

of wish I didn't. Right?

比如，有时候我想以评论家的身份观看作品，有时候又只想沉浸其中享受乐趣。但确实，一旦我们了解了哪些手法有效、哪些无效，就很难再以纯粹的心态去观看银幕上的内容，至少对我来说是这样。

Like, I there's sometimes that I want to watch something in the role of critic, and sometimes I just wanna, like, bask in the the enjoyment of it. But, yeah, it it's hard to unknow the things that we know about what's effective and what's ineffective in general as, at least for me, as I watch something on the screen.

那么让我们来探讨一些浪漫喜剧传递的误导性信息，先从让我心碎的一条开始——它出自我为数不多最爱的浪漫喜剧《独领风骚》。没错，我...我其实从一开始就不相信这个设定。我不认为雪儿·霍洛维茨会做错任何事，但也许问题出在

And so let's get into some of the kind of misleading messages that we get from rom coms, starting with one that breaks my heart because it's one of my only favorite rom coms out there, Clueless. Yeah. I I I, like, already, like, don't believe this premise. I don't think Cher Horowitz can do anything wrong, but but maybe it was

电影本身。不是

the movie. It wasn't

不是雪儿本人的问题。所以不，你说得对。

it wasn't Cher herself. So No. You're right.

我打赌。是的。

I bet. Yeah.

对于那些不知道《独领风骚》的观众们，真遗憾，现在就去看看吧。谁想来个三十秒的《独领风骚》简介？也许我来吧。我来介绍。

For all the folks out there that don't know Clueless, sad folks who are, go see it right now. Who wants to do the thirty thirty second on Clueless? Maybe I'll do it. I'll do it.

来。快讲。对。

It. Do it. Yeah.

问题。好吧。《独领风骚》讲的是雪儿·霍洛维茨（艾丽西亚·西尔维斯通饰），一个高中里的风云女孩，决定用她的能力帮大家配对。我记得她先是从老师开始，但后来她帮自己有点土气的朋友（年轻的布兰妮·墨菲饰）牵线搭桥。

Are. Problem. Okay. Clueless is Cher Horowitz, Alicia Silverstone, very popular girl in high school, decides she's gonna use her powers to, like, match everybody up together. I think she starts with a teacher, but then she takes her kind of slightly dumpy friend, kind of teen Britney Murphy, and hooks her up with somebody.

但这个叫泰的土气朋友后来变得更受欢迎。她这才意识到，天啊，我一直用错了自己的能力。这个顿悟来自她继兄（帅到惊人的保罗·路德饰）。然后她发现，天啊，我爱上保罗·路德了。

But then the dumpy friend, Ty, I think, becomes even more popular. And she realizes, oh my gosh. I've been using my powers poorly and realizes that the this was an insight that she's heard from her stepbrother, amazingly cute looking Paul Rudd. And she figures out, oh my gosh. I'm in love with Paul Rudd.

最后浪漫喜剧的魔力让一切圆满。

And then magic of romcom makes everything work out.

我记得有句台词说她爱得神魂颠倒。

I think the phrase is she's butt crazy in love.

疯狂陷入爱河。对。没错。是的。那么，当涉及到恋爱科学时，这部电影是如何误导我们的呢？

Butt crazy in love. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So so how how is this misleading us when it comes to the science of relationships?

恋爱关系？这部电影在哪些方面搞错了？

Relationships? What is this movie getting wrong?

保罗，我很高兴由你来回答，但我们能不能先承认我们才是坏人，这部电影其实没有任何问题，所有喜欢它的人都是百分之百正确的？

Paul, I'm happy for you to do it, but can we just acknowledge that we're just bad people and that really this movie has done nothing wrong and that everybody who loves this movie is a 100% correct?

我完全赞同这个说法，谢丽尔·霍维茨是我个人的英雄。话虽如此，雪儿阐述了一个重要假设：世界上存在受欢迎的人和不受欢迎的人，她的目标是把泰改造成所谓的“受欢迎女孩”，这样她就能和雪儿眼中为数不多合格的男生约会。为了实现这个魔法般的转变，她必须做几件会误导我们的事情。其一，她把吸引力当作一个项目来经营，认为需要通过各种方式提升自身特质才能吸引他人。对吧？

I completely endorse that statement, and Cheryl Horwitz is my personal hero. That being said, there is an important assumption that Cher articulates, which is that there are popular people and the unpopular people, and her goal is to turn Ty into one of the, quote, unquote, popular girls so she can date one of the very few acceptable boys at this high school in Cher's eyes. And in order for her to do her magical work, she has to do a couple of things related to messages that lead us astray. One is that she plays the game of desirability as a project, so you need to boost your attributes in various ways in order to make yourself appealing to other people. Right?

所以当泰出场时，我们被告知她缺乏吸引力，必须经过改造才能变得迷人且被接纳。实际上电影知道这很荒谬——因为她注定要和滑板少年特拉维斯在一起，这个结局本可以在第二分钟就发生，但我们不得不等到第八十八分钟。这很好，非常棒。所以电影清楚这是个误导性的观念。但第二点，也是真正关联到科学复杂性的部分，在于关于谁有吸引力、谁没有的共识。因为这部电影默认存在一个明确的吸引力等级：受欢迎的人、一般受欢迎的人和不受欢迎的人，人们必须在自己所属的圈层里约会。

So when Ty comes in, we are to understand that she is not desirable, and she must have things done to her to make her appealing and acceptable. Now the movie actually knows that this is silly because the reality is that she was always meant to be with skater boy Travis, and that could have happened in minute two of the movie, but we have to wait for minute eighty eight, and that's fine, and and that's great. So the movie knows that that this is an idea that leads us astray. But the second thing, and this is the one that is really tied to some of the complexities in the science, has to do with agreement about who is desirable and who is not. Because this movie is playing with ideas that I think take for granted that there is a clear hierarchy of desirability with popular people and middlingly popular people and unpopular people, and people must date within their sphere.

现实情况是，多数时候约会并非如此运作，尤其是在人们随时间逐渐了解彼此的环境中。

The reality is that much of the time, dating doesn't actually work this way, especially in environments where people are getting to know each other over time.

我想强调这点。首先我要问保罗，你刚才是不是用了“提升特质”这个说法？是的。我用了。似乎有些微妙含义...但劳瑞，如果你允许的话，我想强烈地阐明这个观点。

I'd love to reinforce this. I mean, first, I just wanna ask Paul, did you use the phrase boost your attributes? Yes. I did. Seems like there was some subtle meaning there that but but I I would love, Laurie, if you'll indulge me, to drive this home forcefully.

保罗的观点是，我们几乎所有人都普遍接受的这种看法——有些人十分完美，有些人三分平庸——从根本上说是错误的。他在很大程度上基于证据得出这个结论。他并非否认个体在传统审美上的差异，也不是说我们在初次见面时无法达成共识。这些确实存在。但就谁能成为好的伴侣而言，几乎完全取决于谁与我们独特契合。

What Paul is saying is that this widespread view that pretty much all of us seem to adopt that, you know, some people are tens and some people are threes, he's basically saying that's false. And to a significant degree, he's predicating that conclusion in the evidence. He's not saying that there's no individual differences at who's conventionally attractive or that we wouldn't agree on that in first meeting. That's for sure true. But in terms of who's going to be a good relationship partner, almost all of that is driven by who is uniquely compatible with us.

关键在于我们与谁建立了有效的关系。这几乎不涉及先给自己打七分，再确保不和低于七分的人约会。这种观念之所以危害巨大，是因为它在更广泛的思想市场中成为一种腐蚀性叙事——你可能会认定自己只有三分。想象一下，怀着'我只是个三分，根本不值得约会'的念头生活，将是多么灾难性的体验。

That is with whom have we built an effective relationship. And almost none of that is figuring out that you're a seven and then making sure you don't date anybody who's, like, lower than a seven. And the reason why this is such a big deal is that it ends up being such a corrosive story in the broader marketplace of ideas that you might conclude that you're a three. And, like, what a catastrophe that would be to walk through the world being like, I'm a three. I'm just not very dateable.

人们不会喜欢我的。更真实的现实是：对某人而言你至少是八分的存在。走出去尝试与不同的人建立关系，这完全是你力所能及的。《独领风骚》《我恨你的十件事》这些电影传递的错误信息在于，它们强化了'存在客观的约会价值等级制度'的观念。虽然包含些许真实成分，但更大的真相在于：建立契合的关系，彼此成为对方的十分伴侣。

People aren't gonna like me. There's a truer version of reality that you're at least an eight for someone and, you know, going out there and trying to make it work with various people that is totally available to you. And that is what I think is the messages that Clueless, 10 things I hate about you. They're sending this message that there really is a hierarchy and who's objectively awesome to date. And there's a little bit of truth in that, but there's much more truth to the idea of building something compatible and being tens for each other.

我认为这至关重要，因为当'你只有三分价值'这种观念在九十年代文化中盛行时，情况还相对简单。就像那时候你得...

Think this is so important because it's one thing when this kind of idea of, like, you're a three and that's it kind of plays out in sort of nineties culture. Like, you know, you you gotta go out to

去商场买新款滑板裤之类的。

the mall and get the new skater pants or something.

没错。

Yeah.

但我觉得现在...

But I think there's a

如今它以某种更为隐蔽的版本存在

much more insidious version of it that exists now in sort

在细胞培养和网络世界里，人们确实持有这些分类观念，这正助长着一些极其恶劣的行为。保罗，你频频点头。这是否正是你

of in cell culture and online where people really have these categories, and it's really fueling some incredibly nasty behavior. Paul, you're nodding a lot. Is this the kind

所目睹的那种现象？

of thing that you've sort of seen?

是的。不。我也为此深感忧虑。说实话，过去十年间我一直在思考这个问题，因为'十分制'和'三分制'这类观念在网络空间已滑向相当阴暗的境地。看看'红药丸'意识形态，或者更糟的'黑药丸'意识形态就知道了。

Yeah. No. And I I worry about this too. I mean, honestly, this has been a journey for me over the last ten years because the idea that there are tens and there are threes goes to some pretty grim places online. If you look at things like the red pill ideologies or even worse, black pill ideologies.

我清楚地注意到，鼓吹这些意识形态的人常常援引科学的其他领域。他们通常并非指向关系科学，而是着眼于某些经典的、有时受进化论启发的关于吸引力标准的研究。过去十年间，这些理论已走向令人沮丧的极端。此刻我特别想大声疾呼：你们误解了科学本质。

And it is not lost on me that the people who are talking about these ideologies are often talking about other aspects of the science. It's actually not usually relationship science that they're pointing towards. They're looking at some of the classic, sometimes it's evolutionary inspired research on what people find attractive. And over the last ten years, it's gone to some pretty depressing places. And this point is exactly the one where I wanna jump up and down and be like, but you're misunderstanding the science.

所有显示人们对吸引力高度共识的研究，都是基于初次见面的照片评判。当人们有机会随时间推移相互了解时，这种共识度就会下降。有些人会越来越有魅力，有些人则不然。这才是大多数人建立关系的真实过程。

All of those studies showing the high agreement about who's attractive were done with photographs and people who are meeting each other for the first time. When you put people in situations where they're getting to know each other over time, consensus goes down. Agreement goes down. Some people grow on you, and some people don't. And this is how most people end up getting relationships.

但如果你所处的社交网络僵化不变，无法随时间深入认识他人，就会错过这个自然过程。我担忧当今社会诸多力量正将我们推向可怕的方向——而现实本应充满希望，只要你主动接触人群，而非依赖在线约会网站的照片来发展关系。

But if you're not in social networks that are morphing and changing and you're getting to know people over time, you'll miss out on that whole process. And so I worry that there there are all these forces in society today taking us in this terrible direction where the reality is much more hopeful as long as you are out there meeting people and not relying on your, you know, your photograph on an online dating site to carry you through to a relationship.

所以这个看起来相当有害。现在我们进入兄弟情、浪漫关系建议的部分，这些建议相当糟糕。这个例子，我认为来自《和莎莫的500天》。那么，艾利，你想快速过一遍《和莎莫的500天》吗？

So that one seems pretty harmful. Now we get into brom com, rom drum relationship advice that's pretty bad. And this one comes, I think, from five hundred days of summer. And so, Eli, do wanna do my five hundred days of summer real quick?

好的。《和莎莫的500天》剧情概要。我们认识了由约瑟夫·高登-莱维特饰演的汤姆，托马斯什么的。好吧，他叫什么名字来着？

Okay. So, plot summary of five hundred days of summer. We meet Tom played by, Gordon Levitt Thomas something something. Okay. What's his name?

约瑟夫·高登-莱维特。

Joseph Gordon Levitt.

再来一次。再来一次。重新开始。重新开始。

Do it again. Do it again. Start over. Start over.

我们跟随约瑟夫·高登-莱维特饰演的汤姆，以及佐伊·丹斯切尔饰演的莎莫之间的感情发展。电影探讨了灵魂伴侣这个概念。起初，他坚信灵魂伴侣存在，而她认为这很荒谬，持更怀疑的态度。到电影结尾，我想你或多或少会认定灵魂伴侣是存在的。

We track Tom, played by Joseph Gordon Levitt, and his relationship with Summer, played by Zoe Deschanel. And the movie plays with this idea that there are soulmates. Right? And at first, he's convinced that there are soulmates, and she's convinced that that's ridiculous, and she has a much more cynical view. By the end of the movie, I think you've more or less decided that there are soulmates.

她最终接受了灵魂伴侣的观点。他有些动摇，但在最后时刻，仿佛命运确实将他们带到了一起。当然，这超出了任何科学家——无论是关系科学家还是其他领域——的职责范围去断言宇宙是否由命运决定。所以让我们搁置这个问题，转而探讨一个更可实证的疑问：相信两个人注定在一起或不相配会产生什么后果？

She's come to the view that there are soulmates. He's wavered a bit, but then at the very end, it's like, no. The fates really did bring this to us. Now it's above the pay grade of a, you know, scientist of any sort, a relationship scientist, or otherwise to say, is the universe determined by fate? So let's set aside that issue to ask a more empirically tractable question, which is what are the consequences of believing that people are either meant to be or not meant to be?

说到这里，劳里你会觉得熟悉，因为你了解卡罗尔·德韦克关于渐进式与实体论信念的研究。但在关系领域有很多研究——包括我实验室的部分工作——探讨相信灵魂伴侣存在的心理影响。研究发现：当关系顺利时，这种宇宙层面'命中注定'的信念并无大碍。真正的问题在于关系遭遇困境时——而所有关系百分之百都会经历困难时期——这时我们如何向自己解释困境的成因？

And here, you know, this will sound familiar to you, Laurie, because you're familiar with Carol Dweck's work on incremental and entity beliefs and all those things. But there's a lot of work in the relationship space, some of it from my lab, that looks at this question of what is it like to believe that there are soulmates. And the answer is if the relationship is going well, then believing that, you know, we are meant to be in some cosmic sense is just fine. The problem really is if the relationship is going through a difficult time, which is basically the over under on that is a 100% of relationships will eventually go through hard times. Once that happens, what is the story we tell ourselves about why we're going through hard times?

如果你并不真正相信灵魂伴侣的说法，那么你会说，好吧，我们会努力解决这个问题并找到办法。但如果你确实相信灵魂伴侣的故事，你可能看到的是我们本就不该在一起的证据。这种冲突并不像是，是的，但我们会通过学习共同克服来成长。它更像是证明，哇，也许我们注定不合适，因此我们变得不那么宽容，分手风险更高，等等。所以，持有像《和莎莫的500天》这类电影灌输给文化的信念是有风险的，即你真正要做的是找到你的灵魂伴侣。

If you don't really believe the soulmate story, then you talk about, well, we're gonna try to work through this and figure it out. But if you do believe in the soulmate story, what you might be seeing is evidence that we weren't meant for each other anyway. And the conflict isn't really like, yeah, but we're gonna learn and grow from, like, working through this together. It's evidence that, wow, maybe we're not meant to be, and therefore, we are less forgiving, at greater risk for breakup, and so forth. So it is risky to hold the sorts of beliefs that movies like five hundred days of summer inject into the cultural bloodstream, which is that really what you wanna do is find your soulmate.

我认为这也有问题，因为它让你在关系出现问题时做出非常糟糕的反应。对吧？你会说，哦不。

I think it's also problematic just because it it causes you to do something really bad when relationship troubles come up. Right? Which is you say, uh-oh.

这只是个迹象

This is just a sign

表明一切都错了。这是我们在幸福研究中经常看到的情况。对吧？某人体验到一种轻微的负面情绪，就会觉得，唉，一切都糟透了。

that everything's wrong. This is the kind of thing we see in the happiness work a lot. Right? Someone experiences, like, a mild negative emotion, and it's like, ugh. Everything's wrong.

对吧？本应是

Right? It's supposed to

只有正能量。但我觉得当我们错误地

be good vibes only. But I think when we kind

假设关系里应该只有正能量时，我们就不会

of mistakenly assume their relationships are good vibes only, then we just don't

去做那些我们需要做的事来修复关系。

do the stuff that we need to do to fix relationships.

修复部分非常重要，因为我认为很多时候这些腐蚀性的信念以某种方式与之关联，而我对此无能为力。另一种时不时出现的信念是认为男女从根本上就不同。你看，我们在《爱在黎明破晓前》中就能看到这一点，这是他们整部电影中辩论的有趣话题之一，那些对话确实引人深思。而认为男女差异巨大的信念——至少在异性混合性别的伴侣中——这些信念与关系困难相关联。

The fixing part is really important because I think many times these caustic beliefs are somehow linked to, and there's nothing I can do about it. So another kind of belief that comes up from time to time is this idea that men and women are fundamentally different. And, look, you know, we see this in before sunrise. This is one of the fun things that they debate throughout that movie, and they're really interesting conversations. And the belief that men and women are very different are at least in heterosexual mixed gender couples, those beliefs are linked to relationship difficulties.

部分原因在于，伴侣最终确实会遇到冲突，会遇到意见分歧。如果你认为这与性别深层本质有关，往往伴随着毫无根据的假设——我们对此无能为力。所以这些观念，比如性别本质化，我们的行为由性别决定，对吧？

And part of the reason why is because eventually, couples do encounter conflict. They do encounter differences of opinion. And if you are someone who believes that that is linked to something deep and essential about your gender, that often comes with the unfounded assumption that there's nothing we can do about it. So these ideas that, like, oh, gender is essentialized, that our behaviors are determined by gender. Right?

没有办法干预和阻止这些事情。在了解他人时聊这些可能挺有趣。但如果你真的带着这些信念进入一段混合性别关系，那将是人们陷入麻烦的另一个地方。

There's no way to intervene and stop those things. That could be sort of fun to chat about as you're getting to know people. But if you really carry those beliefs with you into a mixed gender relationship, that's another place where people are gonna be headed for trouble.

最后，由于时间所剩无几——我就知道会这样，因为你们俩既有趣又厉害，这也是我爱听《爱情真相》的原因——最近一部电影给了我们关于关系的糟糕观念，就是《挑战者》。保罗，你想用三十秒聊聊《挑战者》吗？

So finally, since we are running out of time, which I knew would happen because you all are both so fun and so awesome, and this is why I love listening to love factually. The last movie that gives us some bad ideas about relationship is a very recent one. This is the movie challengers. Paul, do you wanna do thirty seconds on challengers?

这部电影中，赞达亚饰演的角色塔茜对帕特里克和阿尔特这两个男人感兴趣。电影对这两人有截然不同的刻画，但明确设立了好爸爸形象的阿尔特与浪子——那个性感但有点滑头的家伙（这次由帕特里克饰演）——之间的区别。

So in this movie, Zendaya, her character Tashi, is interested in these two guys, Patrick and Art. And Patrick and Art have these very different depictions in the movie. But one thing it sets up very clearly is the distinction between the good dad in the character art versus the the cad. Right? The, like, hot but a little bit skeezy guy, in this case played by Patrick.

这是我们普遍认为存在并解释人们差异的二分法：一类是与之共眠的人，一类是与之结婚的人。这同样适用于跨性别的情况。这种关于人们在短期和长期关系中兴趣与能力的刻板印象极具误导性，因为现实是人们对短期和长期关系的兴趣往往关联性很弱。

And this is a dichotomy that we commonly think is out there and explains differences between people, that there are the people you sleep with and the people that you marry. And this, again, applies across gender as well. Right? So we have this stereotype. And this is a very misleading idea about people's interests and abilities when it comes to short term and long term relationships because the reality is that people's interest in having short term and long term relationships tends to be pretty weakly correlated.

你可以两者都喜欢，也可以都不喜欢。但更重要的是，一个人作为短期伴侣的吸引力与其作为长期伴侣的魅力毫无关联。所以，仅仅因为某人过去有过许多愉快的露水情缘，并不意味着他们不能成为你的好伴侣。当人们带着这些先入为主的观念时，天哪，他们往往会对他人做出一些恶劣且不幸的推断。

You can be into both. You can be into neither. But more importantly, somebody's attractiveness or appeal as a short term partner truly has nothing to do with their appeal as a long term partner. So just because somebody has had a lot of fun hookups in the past has zero implications for whether or not that person could be a good partner with you. And when people carry those assumptions around, boy, do they make some nasty unfortunate inferences about other people.

是啊。这似乎成了一种有趣的自我应验预言，如果你总是...

Yeah. It just becomes a sort of interesting self fulfilling it seems like, if you're sort

...抱着这些信念。而且根据个人经历不同，可能还会让你对自己的过去产生某种厌恶感。

of carrying these beliefs. And and also might make you kinda feel nasty about your own history depending on what it's like too.

嗯。对，对。你为什么盯着我看？

Mhmm. Right. Right. Why are you looking at me?

所以

So

在我们即将结束之际，我觉得棘手的是，我们既无法从浪漫喜剧中获得这些真正基于科学的好见解，同时也会吸收一些非常糟糕的策略。我们该记住什么？比如，浪漫喜剧应该附带什么样的健康警示，伊莱？

just as we're winding down, I mean, what seems tricky is that we both can't get these really good scientifically based insights from rom coms and also some really terrible strategies too. What should we take away? Like, what's the sort of health warning that should go with rom coms, Eli?

主要是，我只希望人们享受电影。我...我是说，整天过度思考是有代价的。话虽如此，电影传递的信息无论我们是否意识到，我们都在很大程度上内化了这些信息。所以我很高兴我们开了这个播客。我觉得或许该有个类似'事实核查'的东西，让我们能查证这些内容。

Mostly, I just want people to enjoy the films. I I like, I I I there's a cost to, you know, being in your head all the time. That said, films send messages whether we know it or not, and we internalize these messages to a significant degree. And so I am delighted that we started the podcast. I think some idea that there might be, like, a fact check for this stuff that we can look up somewhere.

我认为这种东西根本不存在。所以我建议大家好好享受电影。然后

I don't think that exists anywhere. So I would advise people enjoy the movies. And then

如果你想核实事实，

if you wanna fact check,

去看看《爱情真相》节目。没错。

check out Love Factually. Yeah.

说真的，你们真该听听《爱情真相》。这个播客节目很棒，在所有播客平台都能找到。而且我最近还作为嘉宾参加了其中一期，情人节那天我会把这期特别节目推送给大家。不过在结束前，让我们再回顾下艾利和保罗给出的浪漫喜剧主题建议。第一条，学习《爱在日落黄昏时》这样的电影，通过自我表露来建立亲密关系。

Seriously, you really should check out Love Factually. It's a great show, and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Plus, I was a guest on a recent episode, which I'm going to drop in this feed on Valentine's Day as a special treat for you. But before we wrap up, let's go over Eli and Paul's rom com themed advice one more time. Tip one, learn from films like Before Sunset and build intimacy through self disclosure.

当你展现脆弱面时，人们会多喜欢你——这个结果可能会让你吃惊。第二条来自《当哈利遇到莎莉》。朋友也能变成恋人，所以别忽视那些你已经认识的人。第三条建议出自《暖暖内含光》。每段感情都是独特的。

You'll be surprised how much people will like you if you share something vulnerable. Tip two is from when Harry met Sally. Friends can become lovers, so don't overlook people you already know. The third tip comes from eternal sunshine of a spotless mind. Relationships are unique.

在一段关系中有效的方法，在另一段中可能行不通，所以别妄想存在什么万能公式。第四条是《独领风骚》给我们的警示：别相信高中时代'七分妹永远配不上十分男'的鬼话。择偶对象根本不存在什么客观评分标准。即便是大众眼中的绝世美人，在某人眼里可能只值三分；而我们每个人，也都会是别人眼中的九分或十分。

What worked in one partnership might not work in another, so don't be tempted to think there's a single formula. Tip four is a cautionary tale from Clueless. Don't believe that high school myth that the sevens can never date the tens. Potential partners don't exist on some objective scale. Even the most conventionally beautiful person is a three to someone, and we're all a nine or 10 to somebody else out there.

《和莎莫的500天》给出了第五条建议：灵魂伴侣根本不存在。如果你坚信世上只有一个真命天子，当感情遇到瓶颈时（这是必然的），你可能会过早放弃。最后一条建议来自《挑战者》。那些吸引你开始短期关系的特质——比如外貌、趣味、危险带来的刺激——与维系长期幸福关系的要素几乎毫无关联。

Five hundred days of summer provides tip number five. Soulmates just don't exist. If you believe there's only one person for you, you might give up too quickly when your relationship inevitably hits a rough patch. And our final piece of advice comes from challengers. What attracts you to a short term partner, things like looks, fun, a thrill of danger, that has little to do with the attributes that make for long term relationship happiness.

如果你喜欢我与保罗和埃利的对话，请继续关注，因为我们将在2月14日为你带来一整期的《爱的真相》节目。之后，我们的‘如何’系列将从约会建议转向更大的问题，首先探讨如何过上最充实生活的谜题。所有这些内容将在下一期的《幸福实验室》中呈现，由我——劳里·桑托斯博士主持。

If you enjoyed my conversation with Paul and Eli, stay tuned as we'll be bringing you a whole episode of love factually in this feed on February 14. After that, our how to season will turn away from dating advice and back to the bigger questions, starting with the puzzle of how to lead the richest life possible. All that next time on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

我是记者亨利·邦苏。我正在与《外交政策》合作，为你带来《临界点》，一档关于终结传染病斗争的新播客。我们离目标有多近？资金从何而来？如果我们未能达成目标，又会面临什么风险？

I'm journalist Henry Bonsu. I'm working with foreign policy to bring you The Threshold, a new podcast about the fight to end infectious disease. How close are we? Where can the financing come from? And what's at stake if we fall short?

《临界点》是一个七集系列节目，部分资金由盖茨基金会提供，可在各大播客平台收听。

The threshold is a seven part series made possible in part through funding from the Gates Foundation, available on all the major platforms.

这是iHeart出品的播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.