How to Tackle Bad Behaviour (with Dr Becky Kennedy)

所以，父母天生就有动力去尽一切可能保护自己的孩子，这是有道理的。

It therefore makes sense that parents have a built in motivation to do everything in their power to protect their children.

如果你的孩子靠近一只剑齿虎，从进化角度来说，你有责任介入并保护他们的安全。

If your kid wanders near a saber toothed tiger, it's your evolutionary duty to step in and keep them safe.

但在现代社会，这种不惜一切代价保护的本能往往会导致过度养育，也就是在几乎每一个棘手的情况下都替孩子包办一切。

But in modern society, that instinct to protect at all costs often leads to overparenting, the tendency to take over for your kid in nearly every tricky situation.

一项又一项的研究表明，过度养育可能会无意中伤害我们最爱的人。

Study after study shows that overparenting can inadvertently hurt the people we love most.

研究表明，过度养育会抑制孩子的自主能力、解决问题的能力，甚至情绪韧性。

Research shows that overparenting can inhibit a child's capacity for autonomy, problem solving, and even emotional resilience.

所以，当你的儿子或女儿陷入困境时，什么时候应该让他们自己面对后果、自己解决问题？

So when your son or daughter finds themselves in a sticky situation, when should you let them face the consequences and figure things out alone?

什么时候又应该伸出援手呢？

And when should you offer a helping hand?

临床心理学家贝基·肯尼迪博士说，父母需要

Clinical psychologist, Dr Becky Kennedy, says that parents need

要非常谨慎地选择干预的时机。

to choose their moments of intervention very carefully.

有些时候你应该立刻介入。

There are times you should swoop in.

如果你的小孩正要跑过纽约的街道，

If your toddler is about to run across the street of New York

那就立刻介入。

City, swoop in.

如果他们在SAT考试那天睡过头了，你知道，也许可以轻轻推他们一下。

If they're sleeping in on the day of the SAT, you know, maybe give them a little nudge.

立刻介入。

Swoop in.

立刻介入。

Swoop in.

但立刻介入对孩子的影响比我们想象的要更出人意料，尤其是当他们长大一些后，因为孩子知道有人立刻介入是因为事情紧急，或者是因为有人觉得他们能力不足。

But swooping in has a more surprising impact on kids than we think, especially as they get older because kids know someone swoops in because something's an emergency or because someone doesn't see me as capable.

那孩子的镜子在哪里呢？

And where are kids' mirrors?

对我来说，这是作为父母最值得思考的事情之一。

To me, this is one of the most powerful things to think about as a parent.

如果我是孩子的镜子，那我反射给他们的就是他们是谁的样子。

If I'm my kid's mirror, then I reflect to them the version of who they are.

所以，如果我经常反射出孩子能力不足的一面——虽然我觉得自己没这么做，但可能无意中通过替他们解决太多事情而这么做了——那我就不能怪孩子长大后，我老是对朋友说，他们怎么什么都搞不定？

And so if I'm often reflecting my kid's lack of capability, which I don't think I'm doing, but I might unintentionally be doing by fixing so many things, I can't be surprised that as my kid gets older, I keep saying to friends, why can't they figure things out?

他们怎么连水壶都记不住？

Why can't they even remember their water bottle?

16岁了，这些事难道不应该会做吗？

Shouldn't they be able to do this at age 16?

年龄不会带来技能。

Age doesn't bring skills.

这是我经常跟父母们说的话。

This is what I always tell parents.

人们会问，我的孩子到几岁才不会这样大发脾气？

People say, at what age will my kids stop having these meltdowns?

我觉得这就像有人问，我的孩子到几岁才会游泳？

I feel like it's like someone saying, at what age will my kid be able to swim?

然后我会说，那他们在学游泳吗？

And then I say, well, are they learning how to swim?

没有。

No.

我会说，我不是怪你，但到了一定年龄，没有人是天生就会游泳的。

I'd be like, I'm not blaming you, but, like, at a certain age, no one's, like, gifted swimming.

没有人天生就具备能力、自信和情绪管理能力。

No one is gifted competence and capability and confidence and regulation.

不是年龄的问题。

It's not years.

而是这些年里你做了什么。

It's what you do in the years.

所以，反映能力是“内在好”方法中非常重要的一部分。

And so reflecting capability is a really big part of the Good Inside approach.

这让人很不舒服，因为反映孩子的能力必须与识别孩子潜在的不适并顺其自然相结合。

It's deeply uncomfortable because reflecting capability of your kid has to go hand in hand in recognizing potential discomfort in your kid and just letting it.

这就是我想说的。

That's what I would say.

顺其自然。

Let it.

再说，我会让孩子错过SAT考试吗？

And, again, am I gonna let my kid miss their SAT?

不会。

No.

我是个理智的人。

I'm a reasonable human.

我会让孩子忘记带水壶吗？顺便说一句，我们一直在讨论要记得带自己的水壶。

Am I gonna let my kid forget their water bottle when, by the way, we've been talking about remembering your own water bottle?

对。

Yes.

其实这里有一个非常重要的区别。

Here's actually a really important difference.

很多时候，我们在这种情况下是出于沮丧和惩罚的心态去做的。

Too often in those situations, we do it from a place of frustration and punishment.

所以我会说，我不会给你带水瓶。

So I'll say, I'm not bringing you your water bottle.

你自己处理吧。

You can deal with it.

没人会觉得这很鼓舞人心。

Nobody finds that inspirational.

这完全不一样。

This is very different.

宝贝，我不会给你带水瓶的。

Sweetie, I'm not gonna bring you your water bottle.

你是个坚强的孩子。

You're a strong kid.

你会自己想办法解决的。

You'll figure it out.

等你回家后，我们一起想个更好的办法来记住它。

And when you get home, let's figure out just a better system to remember it.

每当遇到那些困难的事情，我真的会对自己说，这太棒了。

All the different things that happen that are hard, I really do say to myself, this is amazing.

这真是很棒的学习经历，我的一个孩子等了很久，不得不熬夜赶论文，结果现在没法在老师面前复习，尽管老师之前说会帮忙，但他们可能连成绩都拿不到。

This is amazing learning that one of my kids waited so long and has to stay up late to work hard on a paper that they're now not gonna be able to review with their teacher before even though their teacher said they'll do that, they probably won't receive a grade grade.

多么棒的学习经历啊。

What amazing learning.

我喜欢这个。

I love this.

这是一份礼物。

This is a gift.

比如说，你知道，他们以后会变得多好？

Like, you know, how much are they gonna get better over time?

他们以后肯定不会再拖延了，因为他们看到了严重的后果，这真的很重要。

Like, they're never gonna put things off again because look at the terrible consequences they got, which is so important.

但作为父母，问题在于，我得坚持住，我正在做一件很棒的事情。

But the problem as a parent, though, is that to hold, I'm doing this wonderful thing.

我在给孩子学习的机会。

I'm giving my kid learning.

这是一份礼物。

It's a gift.

但同时我也得记住，我爱我的孩子。

You have to hold that at the same time as, but I love my kid.

我应该是个好父母。

I'm supposed to be a good parent.

我在允许孩子经历一些不适，而我本可以马上插手解决，但我已经决定不这么做了。

I'm allowing discomfort in a way that I could swoop in and fix, and I've committed to that.

这又涉及到你经常谈到的另一个问题，就是你说的那种需要同时在心里容纳多重性的想法。

And that gets to something else that I know you talk about a lot, this idea of needing to hold psychologically this multiplicity as you've called it.

也就是说，你可以是个好父母，同时也可以让孩子忘记带水壶。

That, like, you can be a really good parent, and you can also let your kid forget their water bottle.

你可以是个好父母，同时也可以不提醒他们做作业，那可能会导致他们成绩不好，或者让他们熬夜赶作业时非常辛苦。

You can be a really good parent, and you could not remind them about the homework, and that might cause them to get a bad grade or cause them to kind of have a really tough night when they're pulling an all nighter.

跟我聊聊这种多重性吧。

Talk to me about this multiplicity.

我们怎么同时兼顾这两件事？为什么学会这么做这么重要？

How do we hold both of these things at once, and why is it so important to get good at doing this?

非常重要。

So important.

而且，这又是生活技能的一部分。

And, again, this is where it's skills for life.

所以，对孩子保持这种多重性很重要。

So holding multiplicity is important with your kids.

这对你自己、对工作、对一切都很重要。

It's so important with yourself, at work, and everything.

关于这一点，我想说几点。

A couple things I wanna say about that.

第一，我要毫不掩饰地说，我在育儿方面是非常注重长期利益的。

Number one, I just wanna be unabashed in saying I'm very long term greedy in my parenting approach.

比如说，如果必须在短期利益和长期利益之间做选择——顺便说一句，我觉得我们通常可以两者兼得——但我会选择长期。

Like, if I had to choose between short term benefit and long term benefit, by the way, I think we often can get both, but I would choose long term.

所以当你让孩子去体验生活时，再说一次，前提是你不能对孩子说那些话，然后指望它有效。

So when you do let your kid experience life, by the way, assuming again, you can't say to your kid and expect it to be effective.

看吧，你熬夜了，结果成绩不好。

See, you stayed up late and you got a bad grade.

再说一次，不是那样的。

Again, like, it's not that.

而是，嗨。

It's like, hi.

我很好奇发生了什么。

I wonder what happened.

下次你需要怎么做才能不同？

What would you have to do differently next time?

哦，我们得早点开始。

Oh, we'd have to start sooner.

我想知道你是不是有篇论文要交，你会想，哦，你有吗？

I wonder if you have a paper coming up that you would think, oh, you do?

哦，是两个星期后的星期三截止吗？

Oh, it's due two Wednesdays from now?

我想知道你什么时候得开始。

I wonder when you'd have to start.

哦，那应该是前一个星期三。

Oh, it'd be the Wednesday before.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

这个主意真不错。

That's such a good idea.

我在想你会怎么记得去做这件事。

I wonder how you'll remember to do that.

我会怎么做？哦，什么？

How would I oh, what?

你会把它记到日历里。

You're gonna put it in your calendar.

引导我的孩子去井边。

Leading my kid to the well.

这真的很重要。

That is really important.

但我觉得，能让我做到这一点的关于多样性的基本原则是，好的。

But I think the operating principle around kind of multiplicity that lets me do that is, okay.

我看到了我孩子的痛苦，但我不是在追求他们短期的快乐。

I see my kid's distress here, but I'm not optimizing for their short term happiness.

我是在为他们的长期韧性做优化。

I am optimizing for their long term resilience.

这两者是完全不同的。

Those are very different things.

我的意思是，今天早上，我已经好几个星期没去健身房了，我当时想，就是今天了。

I mean, this morning, I hadn't gone to the gym in weeks, and I was like, today's the day.

我知道就是今天，哪怕只练二十分钟。

I knew today was the day just for twenty minutes.

我就是想早上起来，获得那种能量提升。

I just wanted to, like, get that boost of energy in the morning.

如果我是为了短期的快乐，那毫无疑问。

If I was optimizing for my short term happiness, you better bet.

我会赖在床上。

I'm staying in bed.

你确实会赖在床上。

You would be in bed.

长期贪婪，这两件事同时成立。

Being long term greedy, having that two things are true.

我的孩子今天很难受，我可以支持他们，并利用这个时刻为未来培养韧性。

My kid is having a hard time today, and I can support them and use this moment to build resilience for the future.

我们作为父母需要支持才能做到这一点。

We need support for us as parents to be able to do that.

脚本。

Scripts.

一群父母会说，对。

A group of parents are saying, yeah.

我也在这么做。

I'm doing that too.

我们没有支持父母的文化。

We don't have a culture of supporting parents.

怀孕的时候我们有。

We do when you're pregnant.

这对我来说真的很有意思。

It's actually so interesting to me.

怀孕的时候，大家会买书。

When you're pregnant, people buy books.

还会上心肺复苏课程。

They take CPR courses.

投入很多钱和时间，社会也告诉我们这是应该做的。

They invest a lot of money and time, and we're told in a societal way that's what we should do.

一旦有了孩子，我们就真的内化了母性本能这种观念。

As soon as you have a kid, we've really internalized this idea of maternal instinct.

人们会说，女士，这应该是我自己能搞定的事。

People say this, ma'am, it's something I should be able to figure out on my own.

我不应该需要帮助，因为缺乏支持，我们就像在应付各种麻烦。

I shouldn't need help because of this lack of support we are living with, like, all of these fires.

就像打地鼠一样。

It's like whack a mole.

所以，这就是大方向。

And so that's, like, big picture.

我的使命就是改变这种观念，想说的是，嘿。

My mission is just to change that idea is to say, hey.

我猜，在你所有的价值观里，育儿和你孩子的心理健康可能排在最前面。

My guess is of all of your values, parenting and your kid's mental health is probably toward the top of your list.

我猜，如果你看看你的开支和精力分配，实际上投入到父母所需支持上的可能排在最后。

My guess is if you look at your even expenses and the way you spend your energy, actually investing in the support a parent would need is probably low on the list.

这太不一致了。

It's so out of alignment.

一旦我们有了这个，事情就容易多了。

Once we have that, it's a lot easier.

没有这个，当我们独自一人时，就会陷入恶性循环。

Without that, when we're alone, you just spiral.

这就是为什么我这么喜欢你的工作，因为你在帮助父母获得这些工具。

And this is why I love your work so much because you're kind of helping parents get these tools.

而且有时候，父母自己用这些工具，对他们的身心健康也很有好处。

And sometimes using those tools themselves can be really good for parents' well-being.

我特别喜欢的一个工具，也是你常用的，就是保持好奇心，尤其是面对孩子的不良行为或者失败的时候。

I mean, one of my favorite tools that I know is one of your go tos is the idea of getting curious, especially when you're dealing with a bad behavior or a failure or a

搞砸了。

screw up.

为什么面对失败时，好奇心会这么有用呢？

Why is curiosity such a superpower when you're dealing with failure?

我觉得好奇心跟评判是相反的。

I think curiosity is the opposite of, like, judgment.

我觉得我们成年人在遇到困难的时候，常常会立刻开始自我评判。

And I think so often when we struggle as adults, we just judge ourselves right away.

我想这是因为我们小时候遇到困难或者表现不好的时候，猜猜大多数人面对的是什么？

I think that's because when we had hard moments when we were kids, when we had bad behavior, guess what most of us were probably met with?

评判。

Judgment.

回你房间去。

Go to your room.

你为什么要那样做？

Why would you do that?

你太自私了。

You're so selfish.

你哭了。

You're crying.

我让你哭个够。

I'll give you something to cry about.

所以我们的身体里，挣扎和严厉的评判就绑在了一起。

And so we've wired in our body struggle next to harsh judgment.

虽然最初那个严厉评判的声音是别人的，但我们把它内化得太深了。

And even though the harsh judgment part was initially someone else's voice, we've internalized it so much.

这让我觉得挺难过的。

This is kind of so sad to me.

这已经变成了我们自己的声音。

It's become our own voice.

然后当我们被触发、对孩子做出反应时，我们对自己很苛刻。

And then we're hard on ourselves when we're triggered and we're reactive to our kids.

但事实是，我们之所以对他们做出那样的反应，是基于我们自己的内在回路。

But the truth is we react to them based on our own circuitry.

如果我们自己都没有处理好，就无法对孩子做到。

We can't do something with our kids that we're not working on with ourselves.

如果我把自己的挣扎和评判联系在一起，那就说得通了。

If I have wired my struggles next to judgment, then it makes sense.

我会对孩子说：你怎么了？

I'm gonna say to my kid, what's wrong with you?

你太夸张了。

You're so dramatic.

你总是把事情搞砸。

You always ruin things.

虽然到了晚上，我还在想，我为什么要说那些话？

Even though later at night, I'm thinking, why did I say that?

我明明答应过自己不说那些话的。

I promised myself I wouldn't say that.

那答案是什么呢？

What is the answer to this?

改变始于你与自己的互动方式，这就是为什么我如此重视我们做的所有重新养育工作。

Change starts by changing your interaction with yourself, which is why I care so deeply about all the reparenting work we do.

要成为你想成为的那种父母，这是最强大的力量，而好奇心是关键。

That is the most powerful thing to be able to be the parent you wanna be, and curiosity is the key.

比如说，作为一个成年人，我刚刚对孩子大吼大叫了。

So let's say as an adult, I just yelled at my kid.

我觉得评判来得太快了。

I think judgment activates so quickly.

我真是个怪物。

I'm such a monster.

我把孩子的一生都毁了。

I messed up my kid forever.

要是有人看到我那样，他们都不会相信我是那种妈妈。

If anyone ever saw me, they wouldn't even believe the type of mother I am.

我对自己说过这样的话。

I've said this to myself.

我就想，我是贝基医生啊。

I'm like, I'm doctor Becky.

我居然对孩子大喊大叫。

Like, I'm yelling at my kid.

我到底怎么了？

What is wrong with me?

但我觉得，我会想那一刻我到底发生了什么。

But I think I wonder what was going on for me in that moment.

是什么让我在孩子抱怨晚餐时对他们大喊大叫？

What led me to yell at my kid when they complained about dinner?

这很有力量。

And this is powerful.

我当天早些时候或者这一周到底发生了什么，让我处于那种快要崩溃的状态？

What actually happened earlier in my day or week that probably put me in the up to the brim place I was in?

所以，抱怨晚餐只是压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草，我就吼了。

So then complaining about dinner was just a straw that broke the camel's back and I yelled.

这就是好奇心。

This is curiosity.

我觉得我们重新养育自己时，需要明白的一点是，我们错误地认为，对不良行为感到好奇就等于纵容不良行为。

And I think one of the things, again, that we have to reparent ourselves about is we mistakenly think being curious about bad behavior means you're condoning bad behavior.

但话说回来，我总是会想到其他领域。

But, again, like, I always think about other areas.

比如，如果我好奇为什么我的明星四分卫老是扔出拦截球，他们为什么会那样？

Like, if I'm curious about why my star football quarterback keeps throwing interceptions, why are they doing that?

是他们的站位问题吗？

Is it their positioning?

是时机的问题吗？

Is it their timing?

如果教练这么说，我实在想象不出另一个教练会回应说，哦，那你是在纵容这些拦截失误了。

If a coach was saying that, I just can't imagine another coach would be like, oh, so you're condoning all these interceptions.

这真的挺奇怪的。

It's just, like, actually so weird.

好奇心是改变的关键。

Curiosity is the key to change.

而评判其实是让人停滞不前、永远无法改变的关键。

Judgment is actually the key to being stuck and never changing.

只会毫无效果。

Just ineffective.

所以，保持好奇心，我会想，我为什么会那样做？

So curiosity, I wonder why I did that.

对我来说，另一句充满美好和慈悲好奇心的话是：我是个好人。

To me, another phrase that's such beautiful, compassionate curiosity is I'm a good person.

我当时正经历一段困难时期。

I was having a hard time.

我在想那一刻我内心浮现了什么。

I wonder what came up for me at that moment.

因为通常都是这样。

Because usually that's what happens.

就像，有些东西浮现出来。

Like, something comes up.

我对我的孩子有恐惧。

I have a fear about my kid.

我担心别人觉得我是个糟糕的家长。

I worry people think I'm a bad parent.

我担心我的孩子是个反社会者。

I worry my kid's a sociopath.

好吧，只要我一直把四岁的孩子想成反社会者，那我冲他们吼叫也就说得通了。

Well, as long as I'm thinking about my four year old as a sociopath, I guess it makes sense that I'm yelling at them.

好的。

Okay.

那我还能怎么解读他们的行为，才能有不同的想法，从而更有可能保持冷静呢？

How else would I have to interpret their behavior to have a different thought and therefore probably be more able to stay calm?

你看，好奇心就能让我做出积极的改变。

See, now curiosity allows me to make positive change.

这些都是你在作为父母时，对自己使用好奇心的例子，可能你当时做了一些不太好的行为。

And these are all cases where you're using that curiosity on yourself as a parent when maybe you did a behavior that, you know, wasn't so awesome.

你之前说过，我们在面对孩子的不良行为时，也可以用同样的技巧。

You've argued that we can use the same kind of technique when we're dealing with a kid's bad behavior.

比如说，你发现你的孩子对你撒了谎。

Let's say, you know, you find out your teenager lied to you.

他们去了一个不该去的派对。

They went to some party that they weren't supposed to go to.

那你给我讲讲，在这种情况下，你会怎么用好奇心，还有我们设定界限和认可感受的那些方法。

Walk me through how you would use curiosity in that way and maybe your our boundary setting and our kind of validating feelings job as well.

比如说，你有个青少年孩子对你撒了谎。

So let's say you have a teenager who lied to you.

撒谎是最适合拿来开头的例子之一，因为撒谎这件事，作为父母，我们特别容易被触动，而且我们会把它当成是针对自己的。

Lying to me is one of the best things to start with because lying, there's an amount lying that is so triggering to us as parents, and we interpret it so personally.

我的孩子不尊重我。

My teenager doesn't respect me.

我们就会把自己放在中心。

We kind of, like, center ourselves.

每次我和父母们交流的时候，我会说，好。

Whenever I work with parents, one the things I say is, okay.

假设你生活中有个你爱的人。

Let's say you have someone in your life you love.

你为什么要对他们撒谎？

Why would you lie to them?

真有意思，Laurie。

So interesting, Laurie.

从来没有人跟我说过，我绝对不会。

I've never had anyone say, I would never.

我们

We

知道这是一种偶尔会出现的行为。

know that this is a behavior that comes up occasionally.

我是说，你为什么要对你爱和尊重的人撒谎呢？

I mean, why would you lie to someone that you love and respect?

你觉得你为什么会

Why do you

这么做呢？

think you would?

你当时正在经历一些很糟糕的事情。

You were going through something terrible.

你真的很害怕。

You were really scared.

当时还有其他不对劲的地方，让你觉得要么太可怕，要么太难以承受，以至于你根本没有别的选择。

Something else was off that was, like, making this either so scary or so overwhelming that you had no choice.

你知道吗，我再补充一点。

You know, I'll add to it.

对我来说，我觉得我会撒谎是因为我害怕别人的反应。

For me, I think I would lie because I was scared of someone's reaction.

我觉得我也会撒谎，因为某种程度上，我对自己做过的事感到非常羞愧或尴尬，如果非要说出真相，就好像我得重新经历一遍一样。

I think I would also lie because on some level, I was so ashamed or embarrassed about something I did that if I had to, like, share the truth, it's almost like I'd have to, like, relive it again.

就像，我得去面对它。

Like, I'd have to face it.

谎言往往是在逃避我们做过的事，以及逃避我们对自己行为的羞耻感。

The lies are often the doubling down on just being avoidant of what we've done and the shame of our weight done.

人们觉得撒谎的孩子，比如，又觉得你太冷血了。

People think kids who lie like, again, you're so sociopathic.

其实，那一刻是非常脆弱的。

Actually, there's something so vulnerable in that moment.

他们会说，我其实感到非常内疚，内疚到快把我吞噬了，我几乎不得不假装这件事没发生过，才能撑过那一刻。

They're like, I actually feel so guilty that it's so consuming me that I have to almost pretend this thing didn't happen to survive the moment.

好。

Okay.

所以，你有一个撒谎的孩子。

So you have this kid who lies.

再说一次，假设我们能保持冷静，不被触发，不把这件事变成关于我们自己的。

And, again, let's say we can maintain calm and not be triggered and not make it about us.

你怎么能利用好奇心呢？

How could you use curiosity?

我要完全按照这个来示范，因为这会引发争议，因为它与众不同。

I'm gonna model this exactly because it's gonna create controversy because it's different.

父母们会说，那不就是让他们逃脱惩罚吗？

And parents are gonna say, isn't that just letting them get away with it?

我们太习惯于这种对抗性的控制思维了。

We're so used to this adversarial control mindset.

比如说，我孩子说，没有。

So let's say my kid's like, no.

我没从你抽屉里拿钱。

I didn't take money from your drawer.

但与此同时，我有个监控摄像头。

Meanwhile, I have some, like, nest cam.

我看到我儿子拿了。

I'm seeing my son, like, take it.

太明显了。

So obvious.

用好奇心引导的话，应该是这样说的。

Leading with curiosity would sound like this.

这其实很重要。

This is actually important.

在那种情况下，我可能根本不会问。

In the moment, I probably wouldn't even ask.

其实我想说，作为一个人生经验，永远不要问一个你已知答案的问题。

I would actually say as a life lesson, never ask someone a question you know the answer to.

你这样做只会让自己对孩子更加恼火。

All you're doing is setting yourself up to get more frustrated with your kid.

然后就说，你看。

And say, look.

我知道你从抽屉里拿了那笔钱。

I know you took that money from the drawer.

而且，我也不想深究。

And, I don't even wanna get into it.

我就是知道。

I just know it.

我在视频里看到了。

I saw it on the video.

我不会一上来就惩罚你。

I'm not gonna lead with a punishment.

我不会一上来就训话。

I'm not gonna lead with a lecture.

肯定是因为和朋友出去吃饭这件事对你来说太重要了，以至于你觉得我根本不会理解，所以你才不能对我坦诚。

There must have been something about going out to dinner with your friends that felt so important that you also feel like I really didn't understand that you couldn't be honest with me about.

我这么说并不是说这事没关系，但咱们可以以后再讨论对错。

And that's not my way of saying it's okay, but we can deal with the okay, not okay part later.

而且我敢肯定你知道偷钱和撒谎是不对的。

And I'm pretty sure you know it's not okay to steal our lie.

对我来说，真正重要的是我们之间的关系，以及我能做些什么让你更容易对我说真话。

What's actually really more important to me is our relationship and figuring out what actually I could do to make it easier to tell me the truth.

我知道听节目的父母们会说：搞什么鬼。

I know parents listening are like, WTF.

你这是在让我养一个永远对我撒谎的孩子。

You are going to make me raise a child who will lie to me forever.

我敢打赌一百美元，你的孩子对你撒谎的次数会更少。

I would bet a $100 your child will lie to you less.

因为当孩子觉得跟你说真话还能跟你保持联系时，他们就会跟你说真话。

Because your kid will tell you the truth when they believe they can maintain a connection with you when they tell you the truth.

孩子从幼儿到青少年，都是靠依恋来定位的，我们所有人都是这样。

Kids are oriented by attachment from toddlers through teens, all of us are.

他们天生就会注意：我告诉父母什么会让他们疏远我，我告诉父母什么还能被爱和安全地接纳？

They are primed to notice what will I tell my parent that will make them distance themselves from me, and what can I tell my parent that can still be held in love and safety?

而且某种程度上，当孩子对你撒谎时，讽刺的是，他们这样做是为了暂时维持你们之间的依恋关系。

And in a way when your kid lies to you, ironically, they're doing that to temporarily preserve attachment.

因为在某种程度上，他们想的是：只要我不告诉父母真相，我们就还连着。

Because on some level, they're thinking as long as I don't tell my parent the truth, we're still connected.

一旦我告诉父母真相，我们就断了。

As soon as I tell my parent the truth, we're broken.

所以我们做的任何加深这种模式的事情，都会威胁到这种关系。

And so anything we do to further that pattern threaten.

如果你再那样做，下次就禁足。

If you do that again, next time you're grounded.

讽刺的是，我们这样做只会让孩子更容易撒谎，因为他们无法战胜那个只想和你保持联系的进化系统。

All we're doing ironically is making a kid even more predispositioned to lie because they can't beat the evolutionary system that just wants to be connected to you.

当你转而用好奇心去引导时，你实际上加强了你们的关系，并且你的孩子会愿意告诉你更多不同的话题。

When you lead instead with curiosity, you actually strengthen your relationship and you develop a wider range of topics your teen feels comfortable telling you about.

你也在为他们树立一个好榜样，让他们学会如何理解自己的行为。

You're also modeling a great path for them to figure out their own behavior.

我是说，即使作为成年人，有时候我做了错事或者搞砸了，或者你知道，为什么之类的，我也很难找出背后的原因。

I mean, even as an adult, sometimes when I do stuff and I screw stuff up or, you know, why or whatever, it's hard for me to uncover the reasons behind that.

我得对自己保持好奇心。

I have to get curious with myself.

所以如果你对他们表现出好奇心，这似乎也是一个很好的策略，让他们意识到，哦，这就是我搞砸了或者……的时候可以用的方法。

So if you're kind of modeling curiosity with them, it also seems like a great strategy to get them to realize like, oh, this is the same thing I can use when I screw up or when

当我失败或者对自己的行为不满意的时候。

I fail or when I'm, like, not pleased with my own behavior.

完全正确。

It's exactly right.

父母的话，会成为孩子内心的自我对话。

I mean, a parent's words becomes a child's self talk.

这也是《内心美好》长期以来的核心理念。

That's also the long term greedy nature of Good Inside.

所以总有一天，我们的孩子到了二三十岁，会做出一些让自己不光彩的事情。

So there's gonna be a time when our teen is in their twenties and thirties, and they're gonna do something that they're not proud of.

不管是什么事。

Whatever it is.

比如他们对伴侣撒了谎，或者告诉朋友自己生病了不能去吃饭，但朋友却在Instagram上看到他们其实和其他朋友在一起。

They lied to their spouse or they told their friends they couldn't go to dinner because they're sick, but then their friends saw on Instagram, they're actually just with other friends.

你希望你的孩子能停下来，对自己说：我为什么会那样做？

And you want your kid to be able to pause and just say, I wonder why I did that.

如果你的孩子能做到这一点——顺便说一句，这来自于你在他们遇到困难时表现出的好奇心——那么他们将来会成为一个更成功、更有韧性的成年人。

If your kid can do that, which by the way comes from your curiosity in the face of their struggle, then you're going to be a much more successful, resilient adult.

所以当你感到那种想要评判的冲动时，无论是对孩子还是对自己，先停下来，保持好奇心。

So when you feel that impulse to get all judgmental, whether it's about your child or yourself, take a pause and get curious.

这种求知欲不仅比评判别人更让人愉快，还能额外促进个人成长。

Not only is that eagerness to learn more pleasant than feeling judgy, it also has the added bonus of fostering personal growth.

但是，当孩子行为不端时，父母除了保持好奇，还能做更多吗？

But can parents do more than just get curious when a child is acting out?

我们能不能把这些不愉快的时刻变成积极的体验？

Could we turn these unpleasant moments into positive experiences?

如果我们能让这些时刻变得有趣，甚至充满欢乐呢？

What if we could make these times fun, even joyful?

休息之后，贝基医生会分享一个她随身携带的小工具，让棘手的育儿时刻变得更有趣。

After the break, doctor Becky will share a tool that she keeps in her back pocket to make tough parenting moments more playful.

《幸福实验室》马上回来。

The happiness lab will be back in a moment.

临床心理学家贝基·肯尼迪医生认为，传统的奖惩式育儿模式不仅无效。

Clinical psychologist, doctor Becky Kennedy, believes that the traditional reward punishment model of parenting is not just ineffective.

它还可能让父母错失与孩子建立联系的重要机会。

It can also cause parents to miss out on important opportunities to connect with their kids.

孩子们。

Kids.

和大人一样，孩子学习效果最好的时候，不是感到被威胁或被收买的时候，而是感到安全、被支持，并且玩得开心的时候。

Like adults, children learn best not when they're feeling threatened or bribed, but when they feel safe and supported and when they're having fun.

事实上，Becky医生认为，我们在育儿中需要加入比大多数家长通常认为的更多的幽默和傻气。

In fact, doctor Becky thinks we need to bring way more humor and goofiness into parenting than most caregivers usually think.

玩闹非常重要，我想指出这是父母最难做到的部分之一。

Playfulness is so important, and I just wanna name here is one of the hardest parts for parents.

因为育儿往往并不让人觉得好玩。

Because parenting doesn't often feel playful.

它总是感觉像一场苦差事，百分之百全天候。

It just feels like a grind a 100% all the time.

所以回到你的那种，嘿。

And so getting back to your, hey.

就是进入那种好玩模式，可能就

It's just funzy time mode can just be

确实很难。

really tough.

我觉得这是其中一个原因。

I think there's that.

而且我想说，我觉得大多数父母小时候并没有从自己父母那里体验到多少玩闹的乐趣。

And I would say, I don't think most parents experienced a lot of playfulness from their parents.

没错。

True.

完全同意。

Totally.

人们会说，为什么孩子小的时候我很难陪他们玩假装游戏，或者孩子大了我也很难跟青少年开玩笑。

People will say, why is it so hard for me to do pretend play when my kid is young or just joke around with my teen when they're older.

父母们会感到很多内疚。

And the parents hold a lot of guilt.

比如，是不是我有什么问题？

Like, is something wrong with me?

如果你觉得玩耍很难，或者觉得玩耍很别扭，那只能说明你生活中的大人没有给你示范过怎么玩。

If play is hard for you and if play feels awkward, all that's a sign of is play was likely not modeled to you by the adults in your life.

所以，只要你努力让自己多一点玩心，一开始肯定会觉得别扭。

And so any effort you make to be a little more playful, first of it will be awkward.

任何新事物都会让人觉得别扭。

Anything new feels awkward.

但我真的希望这里的每个人都能告诉自己，这就像是在打破一个循环。

But I really want anyone here just to tell themselves, that's like a cycle breaking act.

我能陪孩子做一些没人陪我做过的事，我觉得自己挺勇敢、挺了不起的。

I'm pretty brave and amazing to do something with my kids that no one did with me.

那么，为什么玩心很重要呢？

And so why is playfulness important?

我举几个例子。

I'll give a couple examples.

我孩子的毛巾。

My kid's towel.

他们的毛巾总是扔在地上。

Their towels are just always on the floor.

而且，我也不知道为什么这让我特别烦。

And, like, I don't know why it drives me nuts.

我觉得这可能是从小养成的习惯吧。

Like, I don't it's probably something inherited from my childhood.

这么多事情里，好吧，毛巾在地上。

Like, of all the things, okay, the towel's on the floor.

这倒不是说你不尊重我。

It's not like fine that you don't respect me.

你懂吧？

Like, know?

但确实让我不舒服。

But it does bother me.

这么多年，我觉得我一直都在说，嘿。

And for so many years, I feel like I've said, hey.

你有没有注意到地上的毛巾？

Have you noticed the towel on the floor?

那是几周前我说的话。

Couple weeks ago is what I said.

因为我的孩子们总是开玩笑说我太老了，已经过了巅峰期。

Because my kids always joke that I'm so old and I'm over the hill.

他们喜欢这样对我说。

It's what they like to say to me.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后我会说，这太奇怪了。

And I'll say, this is so weird.

我觉得我看到你的毛巾在地上，但是，我的眼睛，你知道，四十多岁了，有点不行了。

I feel like I see your towel on the floor, but, like, my eyes, you know, in my forties, like, they're kind of going.

而且，我也不知道。

And, like, I don't know.

我孩子就说，是啊，妈。

My kid's like, yeah, mom.

我觉得你已经过气了。

I think you're over the hill.

你知道吗，我觉得那儿根本没有毛巾。

You know, I don't think there's a towel there.

我就说，真的吗？

I'm like, really?

因为我会慢慢走过去。

Because I'm gonna, like, walk over there slowly.

我会跪下来，用手摸一摸。

I'm gonna get on my knees and just feel.

然后我这么做的时候，你猜我孩子干嘛？

And then while I do that, guess what my kid does?

他们去拿自己的毛巾了。

They go get their towel.

然后我走过去，摸了摸地板。

And then I go and I touch the floor.

我就想，天哪。

I'm like, oh my goodness.

这也太奇怪了。

That is so weird.

我的眼睛真的不行了。

My eyes are so bad.

我戴上了我的双光眼镜。

I meet my bifocals.

太糟糕了。

How terrible.

我就在想那会是什么样子。

I just think about how that could go.

把你的毛巾捡起来。

Pick up your towel.

我不捡。

I'm not picking up.

我在做作业。

I'm doing homework.

你现在不捡起毛巾，就没有甜点吃。

If you don't pick up your towel now, no dessert.

然后我就想，我干嘛说那个？

And then I'm like, why did I say that?

我不想不给甜点。

I don't wanna withhold dessert.

然后我就想，好吧。

And then I'm like, okay.

我想你可以吃水果和奶油。

I guess you can have fruit and whipped cream.

那不算真正的甜点。

That's not really dessert.

我都是在瞎编。

I'm making stuff up.

我这是在吵架。

I'm getting in a fight.

那这里最难的部分是什么？

So what's the hardest part here?

我其实觉得，很多选择快乐和玩耍的时刻，另一个选项并不是平静。

I actually think a lot of the moments to choose joy and to choose play, the alternative isn't calm.

很多时候，另一个选项是控制和愤怒。

Often the alternative is control and anger.

你想用控制和愤怒来主导的时刻，其实正是最适合加入一些玩乐的时刻。

The moments when you want to lead with control and anger are actually the best moments to try to infuse some play.

再举一个例子。

Another example of this.

这个我之前跟小孩子做过，但现在我改编成了适合大孩子的版本。

And this is something I've done with younger kids for a while, but I've adapted it to an older kid version.

哪个孩子喜欢收拾东西？

Who is a kid who likes to clean up?

好。

Okay.

看。

Look.

没人举手。

No one's raising their hand.

行。

Cool.

没人喜欢收拾。

Nobody likes to clean up.

那你怎么让孩子去收拾呢？

So what do you do when you have to get your kid to clean up?

通常，你会先用愤怒和控制来引导。

Often, lead with anger and control.

如果你不收拾你的玩具，明天它们就全进垃圾桶了。

If you don't clean up your toys, they're all gonna be in the garbage tomorrow.

我孩子就说，哼，这种空头威胁我早就听过了。

My kid's like, well, I've heard that empty threat before.

我有个招，叫“闭上眼睛”妙招。

I have something I call the close your eyes hack.

就是这样。

That's how it goes.

我就闭上眼睛。

I'm just gonna close my eyes.

我只说，如果我睁开眼睛的时候，所有红色积木都在盒子里。

And all I'm saying is if when I open my eyes, all the red blocks are in the bin.

你看我说话慢，因为猜猜我孩子在干嘛？

And you can see I'm talking slowly because guess what my kid is doing?

他们正在收拾呢。

They're doing it.

我可能会，我可能会摔倒在地。

I might I might fall on the ground.

我可能会这么做，而且我就在这儿说了。

I might do and I'm just gonna say it here.

我可能会跳个屁股舞，然后拍拍自己的屁股。

I might do a butt dance, and then, like, slap my butt.

我就想象一下，比如工作中的老板会说，天哪。

I just think about, like, a boss at work being like, oh my goodness.

如果你的项目完成了，我可能会摔倒在地，跳个屁股舞。

If your project is done, I might fall to the ground and do a butt dance.

我觉得我就像，我要完成我的项目了。

I feel like I'm like, I'm gonna finish my project.

我想看看那个。

I wanna see that.

你懂吗？

You know?

如果只要跳个屁股舞就能把房子打扫干净，那尽管来吧。

If all you need to do to get the house clean is the butt dance, like, bring it.

你懂吧？

You know?

我还想给家长们传递一个观念。

Here's what I think I also wanna empower parents with.

人们会说，这招对我家16岁的孩子没用。

People will say, that won't work with my 16 year old.

每次你说“这没用”的时候，其实是在限制自己。

Whenever you say that won't work, it's really limiting.

为什么“闭上眼睛”这招有效呢？

Why does the close your eyes hack work?

好。

Okay.

第一，你以信任为先，而不是控制。

Number one, you lead with trust and not control.

如果你对孩子说，收拾一下，然后你就盯着他们看，再想想，假如你老板盯着你工作，你还能好好干活吗？

If you think about saying to a kid, clean up, and then you just stare at them, again, imagine trying to do a rapport with your boss watching you at the computer.

你会僵住的。

You'd freeze.

如果你老板说，我相信你能做好这件事，然后走开，你肯定会去做。

If your boss at work says, I trust you to do this and walks away, you're gonna do it.

然后再加上点傻乎乎、搞笑的东西。

And then add something silly and ridiculous.

信任加上傻乎乎、搞笑。

Trust silly ridiculous.

所以对你16岁的孩子，你可以说，听着。

So for your 16 year old, you could say, look.

你的家务之一就是收拾桌子，或者，你知道的，整理床铺。

One of your chores is to clear the table or, you know, to make your bed.

我去看看你弟弟妹妹。

I'm gonna go check on your sibling.

如果我回来的时候，床已经铺好了，我都不知道我会做出什么事来。

If when I get back here, that bed is made, I don't even know what I might do.

我可能会突然唱一首特别傻的歌，然后你们所有人都会跟着唱，然后你们会跟我说，妈，你好烦啊。

I might just, like, delve into a ridiculous song that, like, all you guys are singing, and you're gonna tell me, mom, you're so annoying.

这也太尴尬了吧。

This is so cringe.

我真的可能会这么做。

I just might do this.

我16岁的孩子可能会翻个白眼，但当我走出去的时候，他们脸上大概会带着笑容。

And my 16 year old will roll their eyes, but they'll probably have a smile on their face when I walk out.

他们会觉得和我更亲近了。

They feel more connected to me.

家里会多一点欢乐。

There's a little more joy.

而且我敢打赌，床被铺好的可能性一下子就飙升了。

And I bet the likelihood of that bed being made just skyrocketed.

我喜欢这个，因为你能把事情做完，而且没有负面情绪。

I love this because you're able to get stuff done without the negative emotion.

我觉得如果我们能让育儿变得更有趣一点，更快乐、更有趣一点，更亲密一点，父母们就会一直感觉好很多。

And I feel like if only we can make parenting a little bit more goofy, a little bit more joyful and fun, a little bit more connected, parents would just feel so much better all the time.

我觉得没错。

I think that's right.

而且我觉得我遇到的反对意见是——

And I think pushback I get.

有人说，那是不是所有事情都得变成游戏？

Someone said, so everything has to be a game?

我的孩子就不能乖乖听话吗？

Can't my kids just listen?

但我觉得我们低估了作为成年人，我们也会因为同样的原因去配合别人，比如为了好玩。

But I think we underestimate how much as adults we kind of cooperate with other people for the same reasons, like for fun.

归根结底，合作和听话就是我在做你想让我做但我不想做的事情。

At the end of the day, cooperation and listening just means I'm doing something you want me to do that I don't want to do.

因为每次你跟一个16岁的孩子说，嘿。

Because anytime you say to a 16 year old, hey.

你可以玩两个小时的手机。

You can be on your phone for two hours.

我还没见过谁会说，我才不干呢。

I don't know anyone who's like, I'm not doing it.

当我们谈合作的时候，其实意思就是我想让孩子做某件事，但他们不想做。

When we're talking about cooperation, we really mean I want my kid to do something, and they don't wanna do it.

所以作为成年人，如果你觉得我不想做某件事，但别人想让我做，我为什么要听他们的？

So as an adult, if you think I don't want to do something, but someone else wants me to do it, why would I listen to them?

比如，劳里，我跟你一起吃午饭，然后有个朋友走过来说，你们俩能来帮我收拾一下公寓吗？

Like, if I'm having lunch with you, Laurie, and one of my friend walks by and is like, can you guys both come help me pack up my apartment?

我就会说，不去。

And I'm like, no.

然后他们说，你要是不来，我就再也不跟你做朋友了。

And they're like, well, if you don't do it, I'm never gonna be friends with you again.

我会说，对。

I'm like, yeah.

不干。

Not doing it.

如果他们说什么，比如，有个超棒的，我不知道，音乐可以放。

If they say, have this, like, amazing, I don't know, music to play.

我要点些冰淇淋送过来。

I'm gonna get some, like, ice cream delivered.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?

我觉得你和我可能会说，好吧。

I feel like you and I might be like, okay.

加点轻松的东西总是能激励人去做不想做的事。

Playing levity is always a motivator to do things you don't wanna do.

所以问题不是‘我必须玩游戏吗？’

And so it's not do I have to play games?

为什么我的孩子就是不听呢？

Why can't my kid just listen?

其实，孩子和大人遵循的行为原则是一样的。

It's actually kids operate based on the same principles adults operate based on.

我觉得最后这个观点特别重要。

I think this final insight is so important.

孩子和大人一样，都是被同样的原则激励的。

Kids are motivated by the same principles that adults are.

他们更喜欢被理解和认可，而不是被责骂和评判，而且他们对幽默和乐趣的反应远比被强迫要好得多。

They prefer connection and validation to anger and judgment, and they respond way more favorably to humor and fun than they do to being forced.

今天贝基医生能分享她的所有见解，我特别高兴。

I'm so thrilled that doctor Becky was able to share all her insights with us today.

她的“内心美好”方法提醒我们，如果我们把孩子的反抗看作是需求未满足或能力不足的信号，我们就能唤起好奇心，去发现真正的问题，并以更愉快的方式应对。

Her Good Inside approach is a reminder that if we respond to our kids' defiance as a signal of unmet needs or lagging skills, we can summon the curiosity needed to discover what's really going on and react a bit more happily.

不过，让我们快速回顾一下今天贝基医生分享的要点。

But let's do a quick recap of the tips doctor Becky shared today.

首先，我们要记住，做父母这个角色其实包含两个独立但都很重要的职责。

First, we need to remember that the job description of being a parent involves two separate but important roles.

我们既要设定界限，也要给予认可。

We need to set boundaries, but we also need to validate.

设定界限能让孩子感到安全和有依靠，而给予认可则有助于建立信任和亲密关系。

The boundary part keeps children safe and grounded, while the validation part helps us build trust and connection.

但认可不等于妥协。

But validation doesn't mean giving in.

一边说“我理解这有多难”，一边坚持原则，这样能让孩子明白他们的情绪是真实且可以处理的，同时也不会纵容那些不太好的行为。

Saying, I get how hard this is while holding the line will teach your child that their emotions are real and manageable without rewarding that not so great behavior.

第二，父母不需要去解决孩子的情绪。

Second, parents do not need to fix a child's feelings.

他们只需要为这些情绪留出空间。

They just need to make space for them.

所以，要挑战那种“快乐警察”的心态。

So challenge that happiness police mentality.

你的目标不是让孩子一直开心，而是教会他们，即使不舒服也能感到安全，这个能力对将来面对现实中的困难非常重要。

Your goal is not to make your kids happy all the time, but to teach them that they can feel safe sitting with discomfort, a lesson that's super important for handling real life adversity later on.

第三条建议，拿不准的时候，选择对孩子长期有利的教养方式。

Tip number three, when in doubt, shoot for long term greedy parenting.

尽量避免那些只图一时舒服、却会阻碍孩子未来韧性的做法。

Try to avoid going for the kinds of short term comforts that prevent resilience in the future.

但在这个过程中也要对自己宽容一些，因为为未来而教养并不容易，这就引出了第四条建议——多重性。

But give yourself some grace while doing this because parenting for the future is not easy, which gets to tip number four, multiplicity.

记住，你需要同时接受两个事实。

Remember that you need to hold two truths at once.

我深爱我的孩子，同时我也愿意让他们面对艰难的时刻。

I love my kid deeply, and I'm okay letting them face a tough moment.

第五条建议，唤起好奇心。

Tip number five, summon curiosity.

好奇心能带来理解和改变，而评判往往让我们和孩子都陷入僵局。

Curiosity leads to understanding and change, but judgment usually keeps us and our kids stuck.

第六条建议是，选择用玩耍的心态而不是控制的方式。

Tip number six is to choose playfulness over control.

在困难的情况下重新找回乐趣，可以增进亲子关系，激发孩子的积极性，而不用陷入权力斗争。

Bringing the fun back to tough situations can lead to connection and motivation without all the power struggles.

所以下次你忍不住想严厉管教时，不如试着跳个扭屁股舞。

So the next time you're tempted to lay down the law, maybe try a butt dance instead.

因为玩耍不仅让育儿变得更容易。

Because play doesn't just make parenting easier.

实际上，它也让育儿过程更加快乐。

It actually makes it more joyful too.

今天最后一条建议，第七条，永远给自己和孩子一个善意的假设。

And today's final tip, number seven, always give yourself and your child the benefit of the doubt.

正如贝基医生常说的，即使我们外表上不是最好的状态，内心依然是善良的。

As doctor Becky often says, even when we're not at our best on the outside, we're still good inside.

下周在《幸福实验室》节目中，我们将继续深入探讨更快乐的育儿策略。

Next week on The Happiness Lab, we'll continue our deep dive into strategies for happier parenting.

我们会探讨，怎样才能更好地激励我们的孩子？

We'll be asking, what can we do to better motivate our kids?

我们会了解培养所谓“导师心态”的力量。

We'll learn about the power of developing what's called a mentor mindset.

我们会发现，在坚持高标准的同时，也能尊重孩子的自主权和独立性。

We'll see that there are ways to hold our kids to high standards while validating their agency and independence.

我们还会听到，这些协作解决问题的策略，同样能帮助你在工作和人际关系中。

We'll also hear how these same strategies for collaborative troubleshooting can help you on the job and in your relationships too.

以上就是我们下一期《快乐实验室》特别季关于更快乐育儿的全部内容，我是劳里·桑托斯博士。

That's all next time in our special season on happier parenting on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

这里是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

保证真实。

Guaranteed Human.