为何勇于反抗能让我们更快乐（与Sunita Sah博士对话）

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

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In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

在美国大多数能看到天空的户外区域，兼容设备可享受无缝覆盖。最佳网络基于Ookla对2025年1月Speedtest智能数据的分析。

Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in The US where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 01/2025.

本集节目由Choiceology赞助播出，这是查尔斯·施瓦布出品的一档原创播客，由杰出的行为科学家、畅销书《如何改变》作者凯蒂·米尔克曼主持。Choiceology是一档探讨决策背后心理学和经济学的节目。您可以听到诺贝尔奖得主、作家、历史学家、运动员等讲述我们行为背后的真实故事。在schwab.com/podcast或任何您收听节目的地方收听Choiceology。Auto Trader由汽车智能技术驱动，这是一种高度个性化的购车方式，其工具能与您的精确预算和偏好同步，因此您只会看到负担得起且真正想要的车辆。

This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. You can hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, historians, athletes, and more about why we do the things we do. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen to your shows. Auto Trader is powered by auto intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car with tools that sync with your exact budget and preferences so you only see vehicles you can afford and actually want.

选择新车或二手车，按款式筛选，选择功能，甚至拖车挂钩。尽管挑剔吧。在价格方面，您会看到哪些列表是最划算的交易，让您感觉像是在不谈判的情况下就赢得了谈判。由汽车智能技术驱动的Auto Trader让购车不再繁琐。访问autotrader.com找到您的完美座驾。

Choose new or pre owned, narrow by style, and select features, even trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. And with pricing, you'll see which listings are the best deals so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence makes car buying less of a process. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride.

Pushkin。现在是九月。秋天来了，这意味着返校季。我的大学生们已经抵达耶鲁校园。所以是时候告别伴着好书的海滩时光和夏末夜晚，迎接讲堂、教案和不断增长的待办事项清单了。

Pushkin. It's September. Fall is here, and that means back to school. My college students have already arrived on campus at Yale. So it's time to say goodbye to beach days with a good book and late summer nights, and hello to lecture halls, lesson plans, and an ever growing list of priorities.

夏末常常给人一种苦乐参半的感觉。如果我们不小心，秋日生活很快就会飞速流逝。因此，在我们切换到这个新季节时，我想帮助您找到更多一点幸福。这就是为什么我想在接下来的几集中分享我从暑假阅读中获得的所有惊人见解。在《幸福实验室》的这个新季度中，我们将深入探讨2025年我最喜欢的一些新书。

The end of summer often feels bittersweet. If we're not careful, autumn life can start to move very quickly. So as we switch into this new season, I wanna help you find a little more happiness. And that's why I wanna spend the next few episodes sharing all the incredible insights I learned from stuff I had a chance to read on my summer break. In this upcoming season of the happiness lab, we'll be diving into some of my favorite new books from 2025.

我们将聆听杰出作家的分享，他们的作品能教会我们许多与提升幸福感相关的知识，比如如何做出更好的决策、如何改善工作与生活的平衡，甚至如何将可怕的事物转化为快乐的源泉。今天，我们聚焦于一个我经常纠结的问题：如何更频繁地说“不”，并且真正说到做到。今天推荐的2025年我最喜爱的书籍来自一位由医生转型为组织心理学家的作者，她对如何在即使保持沉默、随波逐流似乎更容易的情况下，依然忠于自我和价值观进行了出色的研究。

We'll hear from brilliant authors whose work can teach us lots of things that are relevant for feeling better, like how to make better decisions, how to improve our work life balance, and even how to turn scary things into sources of joy. And today, we're focused on a question that I struggle with a lot, how to say no more often and how to mean it. Today's installment of my favorite books of 2025 is by a physician turned organizational psychologist who's done some great research on how to stay true to yourself and your values, even when it feels easier to stay quiet and go with the flow.

大家好，我是苏妮塔·萨尔博士。我是康奈尔大学的教授，也是《在一个要求“是”的世界中抗拒“不”的力量》一书的作者。

Hello. I'm Doctor. Sunita Saar. I'm a professor at Cornell University and the author of Defy the Power of No in a World that Demands Yes.

那么我想从您如何定义“反抗”开始。这个词对您来说意味着什么？

So I want to start with how you define defiance. What does that word mean to you?

如果你查看牛津英语词典对“反抗”的定义，它会说“反抗”是公开、大胆地挑战他人的权力。我认为这一定义过于狭隘，而且没有真正尊重我们的自主性。我通常不会不同意牛津英语词典的观点——我是在英国长大的。

If you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance, it says to defy is to challenge the power of someone else, like openly and boldly. And I thought that was really too narrow. And it doesn't really honor our agency. I don't usually disagree with the Oxford English Dictionary. I grew up in The UK.

但在这个问题上，我确实持不同意见。我对“反抗”的定义是：反抗仅仅是按照你真正的价值观行事，尤其是在存在压力要求你做出相反行为的时候。这将反抗从一种负面含义转变为社会中积极的、几乎是亲社会的行为。

But in this case, I did disagree. And my definition of defiance is that to defy is simply to act in accordance with your true values, especially when there is pressure to do otherwise. And that transforms defiance from this negative connotation to a positive, almost prosocial act in society.

如今，苏妮塔的工作探索了这种积极的抵抗，但她并非一直如此倡导不墨守成规。苏妮塔在英格兰约克郡由印度移民父母抚养长大。那时，她更专注于融入环境而非脱颖而出。

Today, Sunita's work explores this kind of positive resistance, but she wasn't always such a champion of nonconformity. Sunita was raised by Indian immigrant parents in Yorkshire, England. Back then, she was way more focused on blending in than standing out.

我是在一个“顺从”的大师班中长大的。我记得在我很小的时候问父亲，我的名字Sunita是什么意思？他说在梵语中，Sunita的意思是“好”。我大部分时间都做到了这一点。我将“好”理解为有礼貌、听话、不质疑权威和服从。

I grew up with a master class in compliance. I remember asking my dad when I was quite young, what does my name Sunita mean? And he said in Sanskrit, Sunita means good. And I mostly lived up to that. And I interpreted being good as being polite, doing what I was told, not questioning authority, and obeying.

因此我认为任何违背这一点的行为都是反抗，是不好的。所以我建立了这个等式：顺从等于好，反抗等于坏。

And so I thought anything that went against that was being defiant, and that was bad. So I made this equation of compliance equals good and defiance equals bad.

很多人和Sunita描述的一样，在关于顺从的观念中长大。我知道我就是这样。我确实努力做个听话的孩子。我总是想取悦我的父母、老师以及生活中几乎所有其他权威人物，这在进化意义上说得通，对吧？

Lots of people grew up with the same ideas about compliance that Sunita's describing. I know I did. I definitely tried to be the obedient kid. I always wanted to please my parents and my teachers and pretty much every other authority figure in my life, which kinda makes evolutionary sense. Right?

没有一定程度的顺从，社会就会分崩离析。所以难怪我们这么多人都感到有一种自然的趋同倾向。

Without some level of compliance, society would fall apart. So it's not surprising that so many of us feel a natural pull to conform.

我的意思是，我说我们天生倾向于顺从的原因之一，是因为顺从确实会得到奖励。你知道吗？作为孩子，甚至作为职场中的成年人，我们被期望成为好员工，这再次意味着按吩咐做事，在某种程度上遵循统一路线。如果你按吩咐做事，人们就会喜欢。这符合所有人的期望。

I mean, one of the reasons why I say that we're wired to comply is that we do get rewarded for compliance. You know? As children and even as adults in work places, we're expected to be a good employee, which means again doing what you're told and towing the party line in a way. If you do what you're told to do, then people like it. And it meets everybody else's expectations.

这能给我们带来多巴胺的提升，让我们感觉良好。但问题出现在顺从对我们不利的时候，当我们过于顺从和乖巧实际上有害时。那时问题就开始出现，我们的顺从会伤害自己或伤害他人。在这种情况下，我们需要学会如何反抗，因为如果我们小时候只受过顺从的训练，那么成年后学习这套技能就会变得非常困难。

It could give us a dopamine rise. It could make us feel great. But the problem comes when it's not good for us to comply, when it's actually bad for us to be so good and compliant. That's when the problems start arising in that our compliance is going to hurt ourselves or it's going to hurt other people. And here, we need to learn how to defy because if we've only been trained in compliance as children, then it becomes really difficult when we become adults to learn that skill set.

你谈到了顺从在个人层面的一些危险。你具体指的是什么？

You've talked about some of the dangers of compliance being at the personal level. What do you mean there?

我的第一份职业是在英国做医生。所以在个人层面，你知道，当我开始研究这个问题时，真正让我作为初级医生震惊的是，首先，我看到患者同意接受他们不一定想要甚至可能对他们有益的治疗和程序。我看到像我这样的初级医生在注意到别人犯错时却不敢说什么。事实上，一项调查发现，十分之九的医护人员（其中大部分是护士）在看到同事或医生犯错时不会发声。

My first career was as a physician in The UK. So at the personal level, you know, when I started looking at this, what really shocked me as a junior physician was, first of all, I was seeing patients agree to treatments and procedures that they didn't necessarily want or would be even good for them. I saw junior doctors like myself not being able to say anything when we noticed people making an error. And in fact, one survey found that nine out of ten health care workers, most of them nurses, do not speak up when they see a colleague or a physician making a mistake.

哇。十分之九。这听起来非常危险。

Wow. Nine out of ten. That sounds very dangerous.

我知道。而且这些都是生死攸关的情况，人们正在挣扎。这不必像我刚开始深入研究合规性时的一些研究那样。即使是在非常简单的实验中，比如一个陌生人走过来给你提供两种不同选择并推荐较差的那个，在某些条件下，我们看到合规率高达85%。而人们并不想要这样。

I know. And these are life and death situations, and people are struggling. It doesn't have to be like some of my research when I started delving into it in terms of compliance. Even in very simple experiments from a stranger coming along and offering you one of two different options and recommending the inferior one, In certain conditions, we see compliance as high as 85%. And people don't want this.

如果允许他们私下做决定，或者如果他们没有得到任何建议，那么超过90%的人会选择另一个选项。那么这是为什么呢？为什么我们如此顺从？这是因为我们被社会化的这一方面，认为这样做是好事，并且只是感到非常不舒服，感受到来自他人的社会压力。

If they're allowed to make the decision in private or if they're not giving any advice, then over ninety percent will choose the other option. So what is it? Why are we so compliant? And it's because of this aspect of being socialized that it's a good thing to do and just feeling very uncomfortable and feeling social pressure from other people.

你刚刚提到了焦虑这个概念，我知道这是你谈论人们过度顺从的另一个原因。解释一下这种暗示性焦虑的概念。

You just mentioned this idea of anxiety, and I know that's one of the other reasons you talk about for why people comply too much. Explain this idea of insinuation anxiety.

暗示性焦虑是一种独特的焦虑类型，当我们担心如果不遵从某人的命令、建议甚至期望，就会向那个人传递对其负面评价时，我们就会感到这种焦虑。所以它基本上是在暗示这个人不可信、无能、有偏见，甚至是性别歧视或种族歧视。这些都是我们不想暗示别人的事情。因此，为了避免传递这种负面评价，我们保持顺从和沉默。

Insinuation anxiety is a distinct type of anxiety that we feel when we become concerned that if we don't go along with somebody's order or suggestion or even expectation, that it sends a negative evaluation of that person to that person. So it basically signals that the person cannot be trusted, is incompetent, is biased, is even sexist or racist. These are things we don't want to imply about anyone else. And so in order to not send this negative evaluation, anything. It keeps us compliant and silent.

我们最终会按照老板告诉我们的去做。当有人说一些我们认为错误的话时，我们不会发声，因为对我们来说暗示某人不可信是如此困难。所以我们那种厌恶的情绪状态实际上非常强大。它会在一些小情境中出现，比如你在理发店，理发师说'相信我，试试这个新发型'，然后他们不停地剪啊剪，而你心里在想'不，不，不，快停下'。

We end up going along with something that our boss tells us to do. We don't speak up when somebody say something that we think is wrong because it's so difficult for us to insinuate or imply that somebody cannot be trusted. So that aversive emotional state that we have is actually quite powerful. And it comes up in sort of small situations such as you could be at the hairdressers and they're saying, you know, trust me with this new cut and they're cutting away and cutting away. And you're thinking, no, no, no, just stop.

但如果你像我一样，你会发现很难真的说出'停下'，然后你甚至可能付钱给他们，给小费，然后回家哭泣，想着'发生了什么？'所以它可能发生在那些小赌注的情境中，但也可能发生在那些更大赌注的情境中。所以这可能就是我提到的护士看到医生犯错时不发声的原因。也可能是副驾驶在飞行员犯错时不发声的原因。就像在这些生死攸关的情况下，这种暗示性焦虑可能非常强大，因为它对我们来说变得如此困难。

But you find it very hard if you're like me to actually say stop and then you might just even pay them and tip them and leave then cry at home like, what's happened? So it can happen in those small stake situations, but it can happen in those much larger stake situations. So it could be the reason why I mentioned that nurses don't speak up to physicians or doctors when they see them making a mistake. It could be why copilots don't speak up to their pilots when they make an error. Like in these life and death situations, this insinuation anxiety can be really powerful because it becomes so difficult for us.

对某些人来说，将负面评价传递给他人——说他们不可信或他们错了——变得格外困难。

And for some people more than others, it becomes so difficult for us to send that negative evaluation to someone else to say that they can't be trusted or that they're wrong.

我也在想一些更个人化的代价，不仅仅是感受如何，还包括它对我们的价值观产生的影响。过度顺从如何影响我们的价值观和目标感？

I'm thinking of also some of the more personal costs, like, kind of not just what it feels like, but what it does to our values too. So how does complying too much affect our values and our sense of purpose?

当我们思考自己的价值观时，我们非常重视诚信和诚实。但在日常行为中，我们却没有践行这些价值观。这就形成了我们自认为的形象与实际行为之间的差距。我试图缩小的正是这种差距——即我们认为价值观在多大程度上影响我们，与我们实际行为之间的落差。如果我们重视诚信、仁慈、公正或同情，为什么我们不能以此方式行事呢？

When we think about what our values are, we value so much integrity and honesty. But when it comes to our day to day behavior, we don't implement that. And so there's this gap between who we think we are and what we actually do. And that is what I'm trying to sort of decrease, that gap between how much we believe our values to be influencing us and then how we actually behave. So if we value integrity or benevolence or justice or compassion, why is it that we can't behave in that way?

这就是社会影响力发挥作用的地方。当关键时刻来临时，我们不知道如何保持与价值观一致。我们会僵住，或者只是没有将价值观付诸行动，我们需要学习如何做到这一点。

And this is where we get that social influence. We don't know how to stay in alignment with our values when it actually comes to that moment. We freeze or we just don't put our values into action, and we need to learn how to do that.

这似乎对我们的幸福感有很大影响。从积极心理学文献中我们知道，与价值观一致的行动似乎非常重要。那种不协调感——我的行为方式与我在乎的事物不符——会让人感到不适。因此，过度顺从的行为似乎对我们的整体福祉有着重大影响。

And that seems to have a big effect on our happiness. Know, so much of what we know from the positive psychology literature is that it's kind of acting in alignment with our values that seems to really matter. They're just kind of feeling just like not the sense of dissonance that, like, I'm acting in this way that doesn't really fit with what I care about. So it seems like this act of complying too much must have some big implications for just our overall well-being.

绝对如此。人们总是在思考反抗的代价，比如‘这太难了，因为会让我失去工作或破坏关系’。但他们没有考虑顺从的代价。如果你不断向他人低头，不断忽视自己的价值观，这确实会给我们带来心理、虚拟、情感甚至身体上的损耗。

Absolutely. I mean, people always think about the costs of defiance when they're thinking about, oh, you know, it's too hard because it's gonna cost me my job. It's gonna cost me a relationship. But what they don't think about is the cost of compliance. And if you're constantly bowing your head to other people, if you're constantly disregarding your values, then it does take a toll on us, you know, psychologically, virtually, emotionally, and even physically.

所以，当长期处于顺从状态时，它会逐渐侵蚀你的灵魂。我接触过一些因为无法践行价值观而经历 burnout、压力、焦虑、慢性炎症等问题的人。

So in that like, when you have that chronic compliance, it can eat away at your soul quite a bit. And I've spoken to people who who have, you know, burnout, stress, anxiety, chronic inflammation, all of these things because they could not implement their values.

所以这些是过度顺从的一些个人代价。那么社会代价是什么呢？根据你在临床实践中看到的情况——90%的护士在看到问题时不发声，80%的人在这些糟糕情况下选择顺从——我猜测这会造成什么样的真实社会代价？

And so those are some of the personal costs of kind of complying too much. What are some of the societal costs? And I'm I'm guessing based on the fact that, you know, in in your own clinical practice, you saw, you know, ninety percent of nurses not speaking up when they saw something going wrong, eighty percent of people kind of complying in these awful situations. Like, what's the real societal toll of that?

你知道，这代价是巨大的，因为历史告诉我们，仅仅因为害怕发声或不知道如何发声而随波逐流会带来可怕的后果。整个社会可能会陷入高度顺从的状态，即使我们对某些事情有强烈感受，却无法采取行动。这种压制或压迫是没有人真正想要或以某种方式投票支持的，但如果我们保持沉默、不发表意见或不采取行动，它就会随之而来。

You know, it's it's huge because history even tells us, like, that there's terrible consequences of just going along with things because we're afraid to speak up or we don't know how to speak up even if we want to. And so society as a whole, we could just descend into high levels of compliance with things that we really feel very strongly about, but we can't enact. And that sort of suppression or oppression is something that nobody really wants or votes for in a way. But it comes along if we keep silent and we don't say anything or we don't take action.

历史上有哪些最糟糕的顺从例子对我们产生了负面影响？

Any of your worst examples of compliance in history that have negatively affected us?

我认为关于顺从最臭名昭著的一系列研究是米尔格拉姆实验。这项实验最初是为了调查二战中纳粹行为的原因而进行的。他们提出了诸如'我只是在服从命令'这样的说法。我认为这是我们一次又一次看到的最糟糕的例子之一——这种'我只是在服从命令'的想法，将我们的责任转嫁给了别人。

I mean, one of the sort of most infamous series of studies on compliance was the Milgram experiments. And that was really done to investigate why Nazis behaved the way that they did in World War II. And they came up with phrases such as I was just following orders. And that is, I think, one of the worst examples that we see time and time again is that, you know, this idea of I was just following orders, displacing our responsibility onto someone else.

啊，是的。米尔格拉姆实验，这套研究如今因揭示人性黑暗面而臭名昭著。米尔格拉姆研究经常被引用作为盲目服从危险的证据，但苏尼塔认为它们展示了不同的东西。她认为这些 notorious 实验真正告诉我们什么？好吧，我们将在《幸福实验室》休息回来后揭晓答案。

Ah, yes. The Milgram experiments, a set of studies that are now infamous for revealing the dark side of human nature. The Milgram studies are often cited as proof of the dangers of blind obedience, But Sunita argues that they show something different. What does she think these notorious experiments really tell us? Well, we'll find out when the happiness lab returns from the break.

在当今超级竞争的商业环境中，优势属于那些更努力推动、更快行动并升级所有工具的人。T-Mobile深谙此道。根据Ookla网速测试专家的评估，他们现在是最佳网络提供商，并正在利用该网络推出Supermobile——首个也是唯一一个将智能性能、内置安全性和无缝卫星覆盖结合的商业计划。借助Supermobile，您的性能、安全性和覆盖范围都将得到超级提升。通过实时自适应网络，您的业务即使在需求高峰时期也能保持峰值运营能力。

In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at Ookla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

借助首个全国性5G高级网络的内置安全性，您可以为您的团队和客户保持私人数据的私密性。通过世界上最大的卫星到移动星座的无缝覆盖，您的整个团队即使在没有网络信号的地方也能发短信并保持更新。这就是您的业务超级升级。了解更多请访问supermobile.com。在大多数美国户外能看到天空的区域，兼容设备均可享受无缝覆盖。

With built in security on the first nationwide five g advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile, Constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in The US where you can see the sky.

根据Ookla对Speedtest Intelligence Data 2021年5月的分析得出的最佳网络。

Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data one h twenty twenty '5.

秋季正值高潮，是更新衣橱的绝佳时机，添置那些既好看又舒适的衣物。幸运的是，Quince让您轻松打造精致造型、保持温暖并节省大笔开支，同时不牺牲品质。Quince拥有您秋季所需的所有高端必备单品。Quince的蒙古羊绒全拉链连帽衫几乎成了我每个秋季周末活动的标配，但我也一直在关注他们超级柔软的抓绒拉链连帽衫，想换换风格。通过与道德顶级工厂直接合作，Quince省去了中间环节，以类似品牌一半的价格提供奢华品质的单品。

Fall is in full swing and is the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials that you need for fall. Quince's Mongolian cashmere full zip hoodie has been pretty much part of my every fall weekend activity, but I've also been eyeing their super soft fleece zip up hoodie to mix it up a bit. By partnering directly with ethical top tier factories, Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands.

Quince可以成为您的一站式商店，无论您需要衣橱、厨房甚至家居用品。这个秋天，用Quince的持久经典单品保持经典与舒适。访问 quince.com/happiness 即可享受订单免运费和365天退货服务。那就是 q u i n c e . c o m / h a p p i n e s s，获取免运费和365天退货。Quince.com/happiness。

Quince can become your one stop shop, whether you need pieces for your closet, your kitchen, or even around the house. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com/happiness for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. That's q u I n c e dot com slash happiness to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/happiness.

《幸福实验室》自豪地由Amica Insurance赞助。被倾听的感觉很好，不是吗？Amica会加倍努力，通过花时间真正理解您的需求来为您定制合适的保险方案，因为这是互助公司应该做的。无论您在家还是在路上，Amica知道重要的不仅是您要去哪里，还有与谁同行。共同保护最重要的东西。

The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. It feels good to be heard, doesn't it? Amica goes the extra mile to customize the right coverage for you by taking the time to really understand your needs because that's what a mutual company does. Whether you're home or on the road, Amica knows it's not just about where you're going, but who you go with. Protect what matters most together.

作为一家客户所有的公司，Amica将优先考虑您的需求。访问 amica.com 并立即获取报价。康奈尔大学教授Suneet Dassault的使命是教世界如何更好地反抗，如何即使在可能让他人尴尬、害怕或失望的情况下也能坚持自己的价值观。Sunita最初开始研究反抗是在她年轻医学生时期，这条职业道路对她来说，或许具有讽刺意味，是一种顺从的行为。

As a customer owned company, Amica will prioritize your needs. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Cornell professor Suneet Dassault is on a mission to teach the world how to defy better, how we can stick to our values even when that might be awkward, scary, or disappointing to others. Sunita first began studying defiance as a young medical student, a career path that for her, perhaps ironically, was an act of compliance.

我记得当时在想医学是否适合我。然后有人告诉我，嗯，你有成绩。你还能做什么？这是你能做的最好的事。所以我确实遵循了每个人的期望，甚至社会的期望，认为当医生是你能做的最好的事，于是我去了医学院。

I remember thinking at the time whether medicine was the right thing for me. And I got told, well, you have the grades. What else would you do? It's the best thing you can do. And so I did follow everybody else's expectations and even society's expectations that being a doctor is the best thing that you can do, and I went to medical school.

但Sunita并非完全顺从。她仍然想为自己开辟一些东西。所以她选修了一些心理学课程，这是她真正热爱的领域。

But Sunita wasn't completely compliant. She still wanted to carve out something for herself. So she took some courses in psychology, the field she actually felt passionate about.

就在那时，我接触到了斯坦利·米尔格拉姆在20世纪60年代初于耶鲁大学进行的实验。

And that's when I came across Stanley Milgram's experiments that were conducted in the early nineteen sixties at Yale.

没错。米尔格拉姆关于平庸之恶的传奇研究正是在我今天任教的同一所机构进行的。和苏尼塔一样，我一直觉得米尔格拉姆的实验无比迷人，尤其是当你不仅阅读他的研究，还实际聆听原始实验录音时——耶鲁大学的图书馆里恰好有这些录音。这里有一段试听。

That's right. Milgram's legendary studies on the banality of evil were carried out at the very same institution where I teach today. Like Sunita, I've always found Milgram's experiments to be endlessly fascinating, especially when you not only read about his studies, but actually listen to the original experimental recordings, which they happen to have available in the library at Yale. Here's a taste.

够了。让我出去。我告诉过你我有心脏病。我现在听到一些让我不安的声音。请让我出去。

That's all. Get me out of here. I told you I had heart trouble. I heard something to bother me now. Get me out of here, please.

在她的书中，苏尼塔描述了米尔格拉姆最著名的研究。他将40名年龄在20至50岁之间的男性带进实验室。这些男性是通过报纸广告和直邮招募的。他们代表了广泛的职业和教育水平。换句话说，参与者就是米尔格拉姆所说的普通人。

In her book, Sunita describes Milgram's most well known study. He brought 40 men between the ages of 20 to 50 into the lab. The men were recruited through newspaper ads and direct mail solicitations. They represented a wide range of occupations and education levels. In other words, the participants were what Milgram called ordinary individuals.

米尔格拉姆进行这些实验的真正原因是他想调查‘我只是在服从命令’这句话是否是一种心理现实。于是他让参与者进来，这些社区成员以为他们要参加一个学习实验，研究给予某人电击是否比任何其他方法更能帮助他们学习和改善记忆。

Milgram really conducted these experiments because he wanted to investigate whether this phrase of I was just following orders was a psychological reality or not. And so he had participants come in, community members that thought that they were gonna take part in a learning experiment and whether giving someone an electric shock helps them learn and improves their memory far more than anything else.

有一种理论认为，人们在犯错时受到惩罚就能正确学习。本项目汇集了多名不同职业和年龄的成年人，我们请其中一些人担任教师，另一些人担任学习者。我们想了解不同的人作为教师和学习者对彼此有什么影响，以及惩罚在这种情况下对学习会产生什么效果。

One theory is that people learn things correctly whenever they get punished for making a mistake. Project is bringing together a number of adults with different occupations and ages, and we're asking some of them to be teachers and some to be learners. We want to find out just what effect different people have on each other as teachers and learners, and also what effect punishment will have on learning in this situation.

于是参与者进来后，会被介绍给另一个人——他们以为那也是参与者，但实际上是一名演员。他们看到这名演员被安置在另一个房间，绑在一个看起来像电椅的装置上。

And so the participants would come in and they would be introduced to someone else that they thought was a participant, but really was an actor who they saw being placed in another room and kind of strapped to something that looked like an electric chair.

现在我要把你的手臂固定住，以免你在实验过程中过度移动。

Now what I'm going to do is strap down your arms to avoid any excessive movement on your part during the experiment.

然后他们被带到另一个房间，坐在一台精致的机器前，机器上的刻度从15伏开始，以15伏为增量一直增加到450伏。这个最高档标记为XXX，表示强烈电击。

And then they were taken to another room where they sat in front of this elegant machine that had markings from 15 volts going up in 15 volt increments all the way to 450 volts. That was labeled XXX, severe shock.

当你把其中一个开关完全按下时，学习者就会受到电击。当你松开时，电击就会停止，就像这样。

When you press one of the switches all the way down, the learner gets a shock. When you release it, the shock stops, you see, like that.

这些参与者被称为教师，因为他们向另一个房间里的学习者（其实是演员）朗读单词对。如果学习者答错了单词对，教师就必须给予电击，并按照这些增量逐步增加强度。

So those participants were called teachers because they were reading out word pairs to the learner in the other room, the actor. And if the learner got the word pair wrong, then the teacher would have to give an electric shock and then increase in these increments.

错误。你现在将受到75伏的电击。A. 他在里面确实有些叫喊。

Incorrect. You'll now get a shock of 75 volts. A. He kinda did some yelling in there.

是的。请继续。

Yeah. Continue, please.

硬石头 头 面包 工作。错误。你现在将受到105伏的电击。这东西到底能用到多高的电压？

Hard stone head bread work. Incorrect. You'll now get a shock of 105 volts. Just how far can you go on this thing?

在必要的范围内。

As far as is necessary.

你说的'在必要的范围内'是什么意思？

What do you mean as far as is necessary?

完成测试。

Complete the test.

勇敢的女人、士兵、狗、马。错误。150伏特。

Brave woman, soldier, dog, horse. Incorrect. 150 volts.

就这样吧。让我离开这里。我告诉过你我有心脏病。我的心脏现在开始不舒服了。请让我离开这里。

That's all. Get me out of here. I told you I had heart trouble. My heart's starting to bother me now. Get me out of here, please.

继续。我的

Continue. My

心脏开始让你不舒服了。我拒绝继续。让我出去。

heart's starting to bother you. I refuse to go in. Let me out.

我认为我们应该先弄清楚里面出了什么问题。

I I think we ought to find out what's wrong in there first.

如果他们提出抗议，房间里穿着实验室外套的实验人员会给他们四个提示，分别是：请继续。实验要求你继续。

And if they protested, the experimenter who was in the room with them with a lab coat on would give them four prompts, which were, please go on. Experiment requires you to continue.

老师，实验要求你必须继续。

The experiment requires that you continue, teacher.

嗯，实验可能要求我们继续，但我仍然认为我们应该了解那位先生的状况。

Well, the experiment might require that we continue, but I still think we should find out what the condition of the gentleman is.

你继续下去是绝对必要的。

It's absolutely essential that you continue.

你继续下去是绝对必要的。

It's absolutely essential that you continue.

你没有选择。你必须继续。如果在这些提示之后他们仍然不愿意继续，那么实验就会结束。而事先，一组精神病学家预测很少有人会达到450伏特。但米尔格拉姆发现，三分之二的参与者都达到了450伏特的极端危险电击水平。

And you have no choice. You must go on. And if after poor prompts they didn't want to continue, then then the experiment would end. And in advance, a group of psychiatrists predicted that very few people would go up to four fifty volts. But what Milgram found was that two thirds of participants went up to the extreme dangerous shock of 450 volts.

他对这些结果感到震惊。他完全没有预料到这种情况。他把那些服从命令、将电压升至450伏的参与者称为顺从型参与者。而那些拒绝执行电击的人，那些反抗者，则被称为反抗型受试者。所以，我们现在看到反抗实际上是一个积极的方面。

And he was astounded by those results. He was not expecting them at all. And he called the participants who obeyed and went up to 450 volts, the obedient participants. And those who didn't, those that declined to give the electric shock, the defiant subjects. So, again, now we're seeing defiance as actually a positive aspect.

你知道吗？不去伤害或可能通过电击杀死另一个人，这是一件积极的事情。但让我着迷的是，我并不认为那些将电压升至450伏的人是米尔格拉姆所描述的道德低能者。因为如果你看看他们实际上在说什么，他们表现出了痛苦的迹象。他们在质疑

You know? It's a positive thing that you're not going to harm or potentially kill another human being by giving them shocks. But what fascinated me was I didn't think the the people that went up to 450 volts were moral imbeciles as Milgram described them. Because if you look at what they were actually saying, they were showing signs of distress. They were questioning

他正在里面大喊大叫。他受不了了。如果他出了什么事怎么办？

And he's in there hollering. He can't stand it. What if something happens to him?

他们在结巴。

They were stuttering.

实验要求你继续，老师。

The experiment requires that you continue, teacher.

是的。但是

Yeah. But

如果你也观察他们的非语言行为，他们在出汗。他们看起来处于痛苦之中。他们有紧张的笑声。

And if you look at their nonverbal behavior as well, they were sweating. They looked like they were in distress. They had nervous laughter.

错了。

Wrong.

75 orbstren。那是And

75 orbstren. That's And

我能认出所有这些迹象，因为我自己也多次经历过类似处境，感受过同样的情绪。所以我意识到这些人其实是想反抗的，但他们发现这样做非常困难。

I recognized all those signs because there's many times I've been in those situations where I felt the same thing. And so I recognized these are people who actually want to defy, but they're finding it very difficult to do so.

是的。感觉他们正在经历这种我也非常熟悉的糟糕感受——他们想说'不'，却给出了'是'的回答。这让他们产生了极大的认知失调，感觉非常难受。

Yeah. It feels like they were just going through this awful feeling that I know well too, which is like they wanted to give a no, but they were giving a yes. And that just gave them so much dissonance. It just felt so yucky.

没错，完全正确。我们有多少次处于那种想说'不'却最终把话咽回去的境地？那感觉太糟糕了。

Yeah. Absolutely. How many times have we been in that situation where we want to say no and we just end up, like, swallowing our words? It's a horrible feeling.

米尔格拉姆谈到的人们服从的一个原因

One reason that people comply that Milgram talked

很大程度上是关于代理状态这个概念。米尔格拉姆指的是什么？我们应该如何理解它？

a lot about was this idea of the agentic state. What did Milgram mean by that, and how should we understand it?

米尔格拉姆所说的代理状态是指我们成为了他人的代理人，我们将所有的责任和权力都交给了别人。无论他们想要什么，我们都会去做，我们会顺从。这可能是因为我们认为他们是权威人物，知道得最清楚。但有时我们自己最清楚，却如此轻易地放弃了这一点。在一些参与者中，他确实注意到人们会根据自己服从命令的程度来评估自己的行为。

What Milgram meant by the agentic state was that we have become agents of somebody else, that we have given away all our responsibility and our power to someone else. Whatever they want, we are going to do, and we're going to comply. And it might be because we think they're an authority figure and know best. But sometimes we know best, and yet we give that away so easily. In some participants, he did notice that people really evaluated their behavior on how well they were following orders.

但在许多其他人身上，确实存在那种紧张感，我称之为反抗的第一阶段。这种紧张感很明显地表现在他们想要反抗，但不知道如何反抗。而这种紧张感实际上是我们自主性的信号，因为如果我们放弃了所有的权力，我们就不会感到任何紧张。我们会处于他所说的那种代理状态，我们会直接顺从。

But in many of the others, there was that actual tension there, which I call the first stage of defiance. That tension was clearly visible in that they wanted to defy, but they didn't know how. And that tension actually is a signal of our agency because if we had given away all our power, then we wouldn't feel any tension. We would be in that agentic state that he's talking about. We would just go along with it.

但如果我们感到那种紧张感，那实际上是一种力量，而不是弱点，因为它提醒我们这里有些事情不对劲，我想知道那是什么。这正是我们需要关注的，不要仅仅因为我们有一些焦虑、怀疑或困惑就将其扫除。真正要关注的是为什么我会感到这种紧张感，对自己承认它，然后告诉别人，向要求你做你认为不对的事情的人说出来。你只需要说，我对那感到不舒服。你是什么意思？

But if we feel that tension, that is actually a strength, not a weakness, because it alerts us to something is wrong here, and I wonder what that is. And that is what we need to focus on, not sweep it away just because we have some anxiety or doubt or that we're confused. It's really to focus on why is it that I feel that tension, acknowledge it to ourselves, and then tell somebody else about it, vocalize it to the person that is asking you to do something that you don't think is the right thing to do. All you have to do is say, I'm uncomfortable with that. What do you mean by that?

你能澄清一下吗？此时你仍然处于从属地位，但你正在外部表明这不是你感到舒服的事情。如果你之后顺从了，你就不能有那种认知失调，说我没问题，因为你已经把它说出来了。美妙的是，一旦你达到最终的反抗行为，你在第一阶段的那种紧张感就会融化消失。它会消散。

Can you clarify? You're still in a subservient position at this point, but you are making it known externally this is not something you're comfortable with. If you then comply later on, you can't have that cognitive dissonance of saying I was fine with it because you put it out there. And what's wonderful is that once you get to that final act of defiance, that tension that you have in the first stage, it just melts. It dissipates away.

这种焦虑似乎在最可能不安全或至少被认为不那么安全的反抗情境中最为突出。这是你在书中重点关注的。你谈到了有意识顺从的概念。那是什么？

It also seems like this anxiety creeps up most in situations in which that defiance really maybe isn't safe or is at least perceived as not being as safe. And this is something you focused on a lot in your book. You've talked about this idea of conscious compliance. What's that?

有意识顺从发生在存在真实风险的情况下，我们反抗不安全。可能是财务安全、心理安全甚至人身安全的风险。有意识顺从不同于我们通常的那种顺从，即我们只是因为外部力量而随波逐流，自动地不加思考地陷入其中。有意识顺从是真正意识到在这种情况下，代价太大或收益太小，我将只是顺从这种情况并随波逐流，因为反抗风险太大。所以我需要将其推迟到另一个时刻。

Conscious compliance happens in situations where there is a real risk for us that we're not safe to defy. It could be a risk to financial safety, psychological safety, or even our physical safety in a position. And conscious compliance is different from the type of compliance that we normally have where we just kind of go along with things because of an external force that we slide into automatically without thinking. Conscious compliance is being really aware that in this situation, the costs are too big or the benefits are too small, and I'm going to just comply with this situation and go along with things because defiance is too risky. So I need to defer it for another moment.

你不仅认识到自己正在经历这种焦虑，你还有一种对自己顺从的元认知，并且你某种程度上是在应对它。你会想，不，就这个不值得提出来，因为我会惹上麻烦。我可能会受到身体伤害。有些情况下反抗确实很危险。

You not only recognize that you're experiencing this anxiety, you kind of have a meta awareness of your compliance, and you kinda work through it. And you're like, no. Just this one's just not worth bringing it up because I'll get in trouble. I could get physically hurt. There's some situations where defiance really is dangerous.

没错。而且我发现人们在决定是否反抗时经常会问两个问题：是否足够安全？以及是否会有效果？是否会产生积极影响？在一项我采访护士和护士长的研究中，护士们会提到这两个原因。要么是他们觉得不安全，可能会失去工作，不知道发声的后果是什么。

That's right. And, like, the two questions that I have discovered that people often ask when they're deciding whether to defy or not is, is it safe enough, And will it be effective? Will it have positive impact? And in one study where I interviewed both nurses and nurse managers, the nurses would talk about both of those reasons. So either they didn't feel safe, they were going to lose their job, they didn't know the consequences of speaking up.

但还有另一群护士会说，不是因为害怕什么，而是因为我过去多次发声却没有任何改变。所以这两个问题确实很有用：反抗对我来说安全吗？会产生积极影响吗？但同样重要的是，不要因此合理化我们永远不该反抗，因为反抗本身就有风险。

But then there was another group of nurses that would say, it's not because I feel afraid of anything. It's that I've spoken up many times in the past and nothing's happened. So these two questions are really useful to think about. Is it safe for me to defy and will it have positive impact? But it's also important not to then sort of rationalize that we should never defy because defiance is inherently risky.

所以我们应该问的问题是：是否足够安全？是否会产生足够的影响？这最终归结为个人的考量，某种程度上是我们自己的反抗计算——成本与收益各是什么？现在是我反抗的合适时机吗？这是我反抗的正确方式吗？否则，我们最终只会永远处于有意识的顺从状态，而我们知道，那也可能带来代价。

And so the questions we should ask is, is it safe enough? And will it have enough impact? And it really comes down to something personal, our own sort of defiance calculus in a way of what are the costs and what are the benefits, and is this the right time for me to defy, and is this the right way for me to defy? Because otherwise, we just end up in conscious compliance forever, and that, as we know, can have costs too.

每一次反抗行为都要付出代价。但关键问题是：什么时候保持沉默的代价更大？休息之后，苏尼塔将分享一些关于如何自问这个问题的建议，我们还将探讨一些当人们选择发声时发生的非凡例子。《幸福实验室》马上回来。

Every act of defiance carries a cost. But the big question is, when is the cost of staying silent even greater? After the break, Sunita will share some advice on how to ask ourselves that question, and we'll explore some remarkable examples of what happens when people choose to speak up. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

在当今超级竞争的商业环境中，优势属于那些更努力推动、更快行动并升级所有工具的人。T-Mobile深谙此道。根据Ookla速度测试专家的评估，他们现在是最佳网络，并正利用该网络推出Supermobile——首个也是唯一一个结合智能性能、内置安全性和无缝卫星覆盖的商业计划。借助Supermobile，您的性能、安全性和覆盖范围都得到超级提升。通过实时自适应网络，您的企业即使在需求高峰时期也能保持峰值运营能力。

In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at an OOPLUS speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

在首个全国性5G Advanced网络上内置安全性，为您、您的团队和客户保护私人数据。借助全球最大的卫星到移动星座的无缝覆盖，您的整个团队即使在没有网络的地方也能发短信并保持更新。这就是您的业务，超级升级。了解更多请访问supermobile.com。在美国大多数能看到天空的户外区域，兼容设备可实现无缝覆盖。

With built in security on the first nationwide five g advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile, Constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, supercharged. Learn more at supermobile dot com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in The US where you can see the sky.

最佳网络基于Ookla对Speedtest Intelligence数据2025年第一季度的分析。

Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data one h twenty twenty five.

《幸福实验室》节目由Amica Insurance自豪赞助。被倾听的感觉很好，不是吗？Amica会额外努力，通过花时间真正理解您的需求来为您定制合适的保险方案，因为这是互助公司应该做的。无论您在家还是在路上，Amica知道重要的不仅是您要去哪里，还有与谁同行。共同保护最重要的东西。

The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. It feels good to be heard, doesn't it? Amica goes the extra mile to customize the right coverage for you by taking the time to really understand your needs because that's what a mutual company does. Whether you're home or on the road, Amica knows it's not just about where you're going but who you go with. Protect what matters most together.

作为客户所有的公司，Amika将优先考虑您的需求。请访问amika.com，立即获取报价。大家好，我是Lori Santos博士。正如许多人所知，我是一名大学教授。

As a customer owned company, Amika will prioritize your needs. Visit amika.com and get a quote today. Hey. Doctor Lori Santos here. As many of you know, I'm a college professor.

当我刚开始在耶鲁大学任教时，我不确定学生们会对关于幸福的课程作何反应。我的意思是，他们会觉得这很俗气吗？他们会认为这个话题肤浅吗？我可能无法预知我将成为一场多么革命性的实验的一部分。如今，在我的课程走红多年后，我无法想象没有我的学生、我的课程或每周收听的所有听众的生活会是什么样子。

And when I first started teaching at Yale, I wasn't sure how students would respond to a class on happiness. I mean, would they think it's cheesy? Would they dismiss the topic as superficial? I couldn't possibly have known what a revolutionary kind of experiment I was about to be part of. Now, years after my class went viral, I can't imagine my life any other way without my students, my class, or all the listeners out there that tune in every week.

如果我没有迈出那第一步，我现在就不会在这里与您分享我的旅程和所有的幸福科学。我成为幸福播客主持人的道路教会了我，我们通过彼此互动来学习。如果您正在寻找更有意义的人际联系，这就是AARP的用武之地。科学表明，我们都需要一点帮助来主动建立更多的人际联系。而通过AARP，有无数的新体验等着您。

If I hadn't taken that first step, I wouldn't be here now sharing my journey and all the happiness science with you. My path to becoming a happiness podcaster has taught me that we learn by engaging with each other. If you're searching for more meaningful human connections, that's where AARP comes in. The science shows that we could all use a little help leaning in to make more human connections. And with AARP, there are tons of new experiences waiting for you.

AARP可以帮助您确保您的幸福与您同在。研究表明，通过更多地与新朋友互动，您会更快乐、更健康。AARP提供专注于建立联系和提升幸福感的趣味活动。例如志愿服务机会、技能建设活动、本地和虚拟会议等。此外，还有很多机会可以分享您所知道的知识。

AARP can help you make sure that your happiness lives as long as you do. And the research shows that by engaging more with new friends, you'll be happier and healthier. AARP offers fun events that focus on making connections and boosting your happiness. Events like volunteer opportunities, skill building activities, local and virtual meetings. Plus, there are plenty of opportunities to share what you know.

您可以通过他们所有的活动建立联系。他们甚至有一个虚拟社区中心。了解更多信息，请访问aarp.org/local，并认识到AARP可以通过本地活动帮助人们建立人际联系。这就是为什么AARP提供这些有趣的活动，帮助您的幸福与您同在。想想音乐会、志愿服务机会、团体锻炼等等，这些都有助于让您保持活跃、参与和联系。

You can make connections through all of their events. They even have a virtual community center. Learn more at aarp.org/local and lean into the fact that AARP can help people make human connections through local events. That's why AARP offers these fun events to help your happiness live as long as you do. Think concerts, volunteer opportunities, group workouts, and more to help keep you active, involved, and connected.

您越早加入这些乐趣，您在社区中获得的体验就越多。您越年轻，就越需要AARP。了解更多信息，请访问aarp.org/local。那是aarp.org/local。小时候，我曾痴迷于美国的一位标志性女英雄，民权活动家罗莎·帕克斯。

And the sooner you join the fun, the more experiences you'll have in your community. The younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org/local. That's aarp.org/local. As a kid, I was obsessed with one of America's iconic heroines, the civil rights activist Rosa Parks.

我在中学时读过她的传记，甚至七年级的论文写的就是她那个著名的反抗时刻——当时她拒绝在公交车上给白人乘客让座，违反了所有种族隔离法律。那时这似乎是一个简洁的故事，一个被精心包装的赋权时刻，对我这样的孩子来说很鼓舞人心。但现实要复杂得多，这一点我直到很久以后才完全明白。组织心理学家苏尼塔·萨认为，直面这类反抗时刻的全部真相会教会我们一些非常重要的东西。我们将真正了解到捍卫自己的价值观需要付出什么。

I read her biography as a middle schooler and even wrote my seventh grade paper about her famous moment of defiance when she refused to give up her bus seat to a white passenger in violation of all the segregation laws at the time. Back then, this seemed like a tidy story, an empowering moment neatly packaged and inspiring for kids like me. But the reality, which I didn't fully understand until much later, was far more complex. Organizational psychologist Sunita Saa believes that facing the full truth about moments of defiance like this will teach us something really important. We'll get to learn what it truly takes to stand up for our values.

所以罗莎·帕克斯真正让我着迷的是，首先，她的反抗一直被误解。人们认为那是她那天在公交车上自发的行动，她这么做是因为全身疲惫。但罗莎·帕克斯实际说的是，那天她并不累，至少不比平时更累。她当时很年轻，并不老，但时机到了。

So what really intrigues me about Rosa Parks is that, first of all, her defiance has been misunderstood. People think that, you know, it was a spontaneous action that she made on the bus that day and that she did it because she was tired all over. But what Rosa Parks actually said is that she wasn't tired that day, at least no more tired than usual. She was quite young. She wasn't old, but it was time.

这对她来说是合适的时机和合适的地点。当我们思考反抗与顺从时，反抗往往 preceded by hundreds of moments of compliance（ preceded by hundreds of moments of compliance 的翻译： preceded by hundreds of moments of compliance）。这一点我们必须记住，因为我们常常因为过于顺从而自责，但实际上我们从顺从中学习。我们能感受到我所说的那种张力，那是反抗的第一阶段，而我们常常忽视它。但那种张力会持续存在。

This was the right time and the right place for her. And when we think about sort of defiance and compliance, defiance is often preceded by hundreds of moments of compliance. And this is something that we have to remember because we often beat ourselves up for being so compliant, but we actually learn from being compliant. We feel that tension that I talk about, which is stage one of defiance, and we often disregard it. But that tension stays.

如果我们只是随波逐流，它并不会消失。我们以为它可能会消失，但实际上它一直存在。罗莎·帕克斯的情况就是这样，那些她在公交车上遵守种族隔离法律的顺从时刻并没有让她感觉良好。她与自己的平等价值观紧密相连，这些价值观对她非常重要。

It doesn't go away if we just go along with things. We think it might go away, but it actually remains. And that's what happened with Rosa Parks is that those moments of compliance where she had gone along with segregation laws on the bus didn't leave her feeling good. She was very much connected with her values for equality. They were very important to her.

她在这个领域做了大量工作。所以在那个公交车上，她可能问了自己我提到的那些问题：是否安全？是否会产生积极影响？嗯，如果我们想想是否安全？实际上，那天罗莎·帕克斯的反抗并不安全。

She was doing lots of work in this area. And so on that bus, she might have asked ourselves the questions that I mentioned. Is it safe and will it have positive impact? Well, if we think about, is it safe? Actually, it wasn't safe for Rosa Parks to defy that day.

一点也不安全。她收到了很多死亡威胁，失去了工作，挣扎于失业状态长达十年之久。她所经历的压力对她的健康造成了巨大的损害。

It wasn't safe at all. She received a lot of death threats. She lost her job. She struggled with unemployment for ten years. And the amount of stress that she experienced had a massive toll on her health.

所以我们必须考虑这些反抗的代价。对许多人来说，这些代价是真实存在的。然而当十年后有人问她是否还会这样做时，她毫不犹豫地回答是的。所以有时代价可能很高，这是一个我们必须回答的非常个人化的问题。

And so we have to think about these costs of defiance. They are real for a lot of people. And yet when she was asked ten years later, would she do it again? She said yes without hesitation. So sometimes the costs can be high, and this is a very personal question that we have to answer.

这对我们来说足够安全吗？会产生积极影响吗？会产生足够的积极影响吗？对她来说，确实如此。而且她知道身边有一个会支持她的社群，也许这能带来改变。

Is it safe enough for us? Will it have positive impact? Will it have enough positive impact? For her, it certainly did. And she knew that she had a community around her that would rally around, and maybe this could make a difference.

它确实带来了改变，这很棒。但有些人会为了他们的价值观而站立或坐下，即使他们知道这不安全，即使他们无法预测是否会带来积极影响。

And it really did make a difference, which was wonderful. But some people will stand for their values or sit down for their values even if they know that isn't safe and even though they can't predict whether it will have positive impact or not.

所以罗莎·帕克斯的故事真正向我们展示了挑战权威可能伴随着这些真实的代价。你知道，最终，决定是否应该在这个时刻反抗，还是继续顺从，可能是一个非常艰难的决定。那么我们可以使用哪些实用策略来做到这一点？我知道在你的书中，你引用了政治学家詹姆斯·马奇提出的一些问题作为指导。请带我了解其中一些问题，以及在我们真的不确定该怎么做的情况下如何运用它们。

So the Rosa Parks story really just shows us that defying authority can come with these real costs. You know, ultimately, it can be a very tough decision to decide, is this a moment in which I should defy, or should I just kinda keep on complying? And so what are some practical strategies that we can use to do this? I know in your book, you reference some questions from the political scientist James March that we can use as a guide. Walk me through some of these questions and how we might use them in a situation in which we're really not sure what to do.

詹姆斯·马奇提出了三个问题，这些通常是我们做决定时隐含地问自己的问题。我改编了其中一些问题，将其变成了我所谓的‘反抗指南针’。这些问题其实很简单，但需要一些思考。第一个问题是：我是谁？这回到了我们的价值观。

James March came up with three questions that we normally ask ourselves implicitly when we make a decision. And I adapted some of these questions and made it into what I call a defiance compass. And the questions are actually quite simple but require some thinking. So the first one is, who am I? And that goes back to our values.

你支持什么？对你来说真正重要的是什么？弄清楚你的价值观非常重要。这样做也非常有帮助，因为研究表明，如果你了解自己的价值观，你的预期行为更有可能随之而来。澄清我们的价值观已被证明可以降低生物应激反应，即降低皮质醇水平。

What do you stand for? What's really important to you? And it is so important to figure out what your values are. And it's really helpful to do so as well because the research shows that if you know your values, your intended behaviors are much more likely to follow. And clarifying our values has been shown to lead to a lower biological stress response, so lower cortisol levels.

所以这对我们的福祉非常有帮助。因此，‘我是谁’是反抗指南针中的第一个问题。然后第二个问题是：这是什么样的情况？在这里，我们向外看，回到我们关于环境的那两个问题：反抗是否安全，以及反抗对我是否有效？

So very much helpful for our well-being. So who am I is the first question in the Defiance Compass. Then the second question is what kind of situation is this? So here, we're looking externally and coming back to those two questions that we ask about the environment. Is it safe, and will it be effective for me to defy?

然后最后一个问题是：像我这样的人在这种情况下会做什么？这是一个非常有力的问题，因为，再次地，我们回到了我们的责任。我们再次与我们的价值观连接。然而，我们仍然需要反抗的能力，反抗的技能。因此，这两点在预测我们是否会按照价值观行动方面很重要。

And then the last question is what does a person like me do in a situation like this? And this is a really powerful question because, again, we're tapping back into our responsibilities. We're connecting with our values again. And yet we still also need the ability to defy, the skill set to defy. So those two things are important in predicting whether we will act in alignment with our values or not.

所以当我们开始思考，像我这样拥有诚信、公平、同情心、平等等价值观的人，无论我们的价值观是什么，在这种情况下会怎么做？因为我们的行为方式会反过来影响我们是谁。如果我们不能按照自己的价值观行事，那真的会改变我们自身。如果我们不断对人说'那不是我'，我们可能需要思考行为是否与我们自认为的身份一致。因为我了解到，对我们许多人来说，自认为的身份与实际行为之间的差距是巨大的，而我们希望缩小这个差距。

So when we start thinking, what does a person like me with these values of integrity, of fairness, of compassion, of equality, whatever our values are, what does a person like me do in this situation? Because the way that we act then goes back and has an effect on who we are. If we can't act in alignment with our values, then it really does change who we are. So if we're constantly saying to people that was not me, we might wanna think about whether actions are in alignment with who we think we are. Because I've learned for many of us that distance between who we think we are and what we actually do is enormous, and we want to decrease that distance.

所以我们讨论过的这么多案例

So so many of the cases we've

都是那些你想说却没说出口的时刻。而且这似乎非常重要，对吧？比如有人说了性别歧视或种族歧视的话，或者有人犯了明显的错误。但很多时候，当我发现难以说'不'来保护自己的价值观时，或者当价值观涉及我自己时，比如我的时间和我的界限，这就需要说'不'。

been talking about are these moments of, like, when you don't say something, but you really want to. And and it seems to matter a lot. Right? Like, somebody says something sexist or racist or somebody's making an active mistake. But a lot of the times when I find it hard to say no to protect my values or when the values are about, like, me, right, like my time and my boundaries, and it involves saying, no.

我不想承担那个承诺，因为我想保护我的时间。或者，不，我不想做你想让我做的事，因为你知道，这不符合我的利益，但这意味着我可能会冒犯你之类。那么对于这些非常个人化的情况，当价值观不是关于诚实或做一个公正的人等更深层的价值观，而只是关于保护那些能让你更快乐的东西时，有什么建议吗？

I don't wanna take on that commitment because I wanna protect my time. Or, no. I don't wanna do that thing that you want me to do because, you know, it's not in my interest, but then that means I'm gonna offend you or something like that. So any advice for the, like, really personal ones when the value isn't about some, you know, deeper value of honesty or kind of being a just person, but it's really just about, like, protecting the kinds of stuff that you need to feel happier.

嗯，那实际上是在保护你的福祉。这对你作为一个人正常运作非常重要。所以我不会轻视这一点。反抗不需要大声或激进。它可以是很小的举动，但真正尊重你的价值观。

Well, that's actually protecting your well-being. It's really important for you to function as a human. And so I wouldn't disregard that. Defiance doesn't need to be loud or aggressive. It can be something quite small, but that really honors your values.

同样地，对于对我们时间或精力的要求，所有这些方面的考虑是，嗯，那实际上会影响我的福祉。你知道吗？那对我不合适。对我的家庭不合适。对我的工作不合适。

And in the same way with requests for our time or our energy, all of this kind of aspect of, well, that's actually gonna affect my well-being. You know? That's not right for me. It's not right for my family. It's not right for my work.

比如，有很多事情，一旦你说了'是'，你就在对许多可能更重要的事情说'不'。再次强调，要记住这一点。这不只是考虑说'不'的代价，还要考虑在这种情况下说'是'的代价。我也喜欢思考顺从和同意之间的区别。这是我在当初级医生时，学习医学中的知情同意时想到的。

Like, there's many things where as soon as you say yes, that you're saying no to a lot of other things that could be of greater importance. And again, it's remembering that. That it's not just about thinking about what are the costs of saying no, thinking about what are the costs of saying yes in this situation. I also like to think about the difference between compliance and consent. And this came to me when I was a junior doctor when I learned about informed consent in medicine.

我认为这是一个非常有用的框架，同样适用于我们生活中做决策的其他情况。

And I think it's a really useful framework to also apply to other situations in our lives when we make decisions.

也许先解释一下什么是知情同意。

Maybe just explain what informed consent is.

医学上的知情同意需要五个要素。首先，你需要具备能力，也就是大脑的认知能力。你不能处于药物或酒精的影响下，或者病得太重。你需要有做出决定的能力。

So informed consent in medicine requires five elements. You need, first of all, capacity. So the brain capacity. You should not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol or be too sick. You need the ability to be able to make a decision.

其次，你需要知识。你需要关于该决定的信息。但仅仅提供信息是不够的。你实际上需要第三个要素，即理解。要彻底掌握风险、益处、替代方案等所有方面。

Second of all, you need knowledge. So you need information on that decision. But it's not enough just to be given the information. You actually need the third element, which is understanding. A thorough grasp of the risks, the benefits, the alternatives, all of those things.

所以你有能力、知识、理解。第四个要素是说'不'的自由。因为如果你没有说'不'的自由，那仅仅是顺从，而不是同意。然后第五个要素，如果前四个要素都满足，就是你的授权。

So you have capacity, knowledge, understanding. The fourth element is the freedom to say no. Because if you don't have the freedom to say no, then that's merely compliance. It's not consent. And then the fifth element, if all the other four elements are present, is your authorization.

你经过深思熟虑。如果你想说'是'，那就是真正的同意；或者说'不'，那实际上是反抗。所以同意和反抗实际上是同一枚硬币的两面。你需要具备这五个要素。如果你有能力、知识、理解以及说'不'的自由，但仍然感到说'是'的压力，你需要思考：这真的是我真正的同意吗？还是我在勉强自己做不想做的事情？

You're deeply considered. True yes, if you want to say yes, or your true no, which is actually defiance. So consent and defiance are actually two sides of the same coin. You need to have those five elements that are present. If you, with the capacity, knowledge, understanding, and freedom to say no, still feel this pressure to say yes, you need to think about, is this really my true yes, or am I going along with something that I don't want to do?

这个'是'真的是'是'吗？因为如果不是，那只是顺从。能够区分这两者非常重要，这样我们就不会因为感到压力或习惯性反应而滑向那种自动顺从。

Is it a yes that's not really a yes? Because if so, that's just compliance. It's really good to be able to distinguish between the two so we don't slide into that automatic compliance just because we feel pressure or that's been our default response.

那么根据你所学到的关于反抗心理以及何时需要反抗的知识，你有没有最喜欢的反抗例子？比如，你心目中的反抗英雄是谁？

So based on everything you've learned about the psychology of defiance and when we need to do it, do you have any favorite examples of defiance? Like, who are your defiance heroes?

我得说是我妈妈。你知道吗？因为她完全体现了顺从，很多人觉得她很软弱。但我认为她非常坚强。那时我大概七八岁。

I would have to say my mom. You know? Because she just embodies compliance, and a lot of people think about her as being really weak. But I just think she's so strong. I was about seven or eight years old.

我和妈妈从杂货店走回家，她拉着她那辆摇摇晃晃的购物车，看起来就像带轮子的行李箱，两个轮子。回家的路很长，我们决定穿过一条窄巷，在英格兰西约克郡我们称之为'snicket'。我一直被告诫不要独自穿过这条小巷。但当时我和妈妈在一起，而且我们很累。所以就觉得，好吧。

I was walking home with my mom from the grocery store, and she was pulling along her rickety shopping cart, which is just looks like, you know, wheeled luggage, two wheels. It was quite a long walk back home, and we decided to go through a narrow alleyway that we actually call a snicket in West Yorkshire in England. And I had always been told not to go through the snicket when I was by myself. But I was with my mom, and we were tired. And so it was like, okay.

行吧，我们就穿过这条小巷。当我们开始走进去时，我们看到了他们。那是一群十几岁的男孩，他们挡住了我们的路，还对我们喊出一些种族歧视的话。'滚回家去'。

Fine. We'll go through the snicket. When we started walking through was when we saw them. It was a group of teenage boys, and they blocked our path, and they shouted out some racist things to us. Go back home.

其他人在笑。我当时的第一反应是立即抓住妈妈的手臂，然后移开视线。我不想直视他们的眼睛，只想尽快从这些男孩中间穿过去。但那天我妈妈做了不同的事。

And the others were laughing. Now my reaction to that was instant. I grabbed my mom's arm, and I looked away. I did not want to look at them directly in the eyes, and I just wanted to maneuver as fast as possible through the boys. And my mom did something different that day.

我以为她会跟着我走，但她没有。她停下来，直视着他们的眼睛，然后说：'你什么意思？'这时我的心开始狂跳，我更加用力地抓住她的手臂，低声对她说：'快走吧，妈。'她看着我说'不'，这真的让我很惊讶。然后她把购物车竖起来，一只手叉在腰上。

I thought she would just go along with me, but she didn't. She stopped, And she looked at them directly in the eyes, and she said, what do you mean? And my heart started racing at this point, and I grabbed her arm even tighter, and I whispered to her, come on, ma. And she looked at me and she said no, which really surprised me. Then she put the shopping cart up vertical, and she put one hand on her hip.

我妈妈身材很娇小。最多四英尺十英寸（约147厘米），穿着蓝绿色的纱丽。她的头发在脑后编成整齐的辫子，她再次看向那些男孩。然后她又说了一遍：'你什么意思？'接着是一片完全的寂静。

My mom's quite petite. She's four foot ten at most, and she was wearing her blue green sari. She had her hair in a neat plait at the back, and she looked at the boys again. And then she said, what do you mean again? And there was complete silence.

那些男孩们什么都没说。然后我妈妈说，你们以为自己是很厉害的男孩，又高又壮的男孩，对吧？聪明的男孩。接着，又是一片沉默。

The boys didn't say anything at all. And then my mom said, you think you're such tough boys, big, strong boys. Right? Clever boys. And, again, there was silence.

然后其中一个男孩说了句'我们走吧'，他们就散开了。我妈妈抓起购物车，尽可能快地穿过小巷。而我站在那里想，刚才发生了什么？我从没想过妈妈会这样。她平时那么顺从。

And then one of the boys uttered, let's go, and they just dispersed. My mom grabbed the shopping cart, and she walked as fast as possible through the alleyway. And I just stood there thinking, what just happened? I would never have expected this from my mom. She was so compliant.

她包揽了所有的烹饪、清洁和采购杂货。我发现她非常安静、顺从，总是满足别人的需求。但那天，她向我展示了不同的一面。她告诉我，反抗是一种实践，而非性格。她之前肯定遇到过那些男孩或类似的人很多次了。

She did all the cooking, the cleaning, the grocery shopping. I was found a very quiet, subservient, meeting everybody else's needs. And that day, she showed me something different. She showed me that defiance is a practice, not a personality. She must have encountered those boys or people that looked like those boys many times before.

以前她从商店回家时总会喃喃自语。我原以为是因为购物车不太好用。但现在我想，是因为她之前遇到过像那些男孩一样的人。那天，她决定做些不同的事，也许是因为我在场。关于罗莎·帕克斯，我也发现一件很有趣的事：她小时候曾目睹母亲在公交车上反抗。

Now she would come home from from the store and she would be muttering away. And I thought it was because of the shopping cart that was, like, not great. But I think it was because she'd met people like those boys before. And that day, she decided to do something different, perhaps because I was there. What I also found really fascinating about Rosa Parks is that she, as a child, had once seen her mother defy on the bus.

她的母亲没有为白人乘客让座，公交车司机威胁要把她赶下车。而她母亲非常平静地说：'我认为你不会这么做'。事情就这样结束了。这件事也可能产生了影响。就像我小时候经历母亲反抗的那一刻深深影响了我一样，这件事也可能一直留在罗莎心中。

Her mother didn't move for a white passenger, and the bus driver had threatened to throw her off. And her mother very quietly said, I don't think you will do that. And that was the end of it. And that also could have effect. It could have stayed with Rosa just like when I experienced my own mother defying when I was a child really stayed with me.

反抗能产生涟漪效应，因为她的行为影响了我，而我又将其传承下去。现在我把这个故事讲出来，也许它还会影响其他人。因为我希望通过我写的关于反抗的书，以及培养反抗技能的工作，如果我们能教授它，如果我们能为此育儿，如果我们能以身作则，那么有一天小巷里的某个青少年会转身告诉他的朋友们停止这样做，让我们通过。这样我的移民母亲就不必独自承担这一切。这就是我的希望，而且我

Defiance can have a ripple effect because her doing that affected me, and I've carried it forward. And now that I'm telling the story, maybe it will affect other people too. Because what I'm hoping with the book that I've written on defy and with the work of building that skill set of being able to defy, if we can teach it, if we can parent for it, if we can model it, that one day one of the teenage boys in the alleyway will turn around and tell his friends to stop doing this and to let us pass. So my immigrant mother wouldn't have to carry it alone. That is what I hope, and I

认为如果我们都能学会反抗，这是可以实现的。所以下次当亲戚开了一个他们期望你笑的低级玩笑时，或者你的老板要求你承担一项与你的界限冲突的任务时，或者某个随机的Yelp教授告诉你对正在学习单词对的人实施电击时，花点时间记住苏尼塔的建议。首先，承认你的焦虑。那种不舒服的感觉是件好事。它是一个信号，表明有些事情感觉不对劲。

think it's achievable if we can all learn to defy. So next time a relative makes an off color joke that they expect you to laugh at or your boss asks you to take on a task that conflicts with your boundaries or some random Yelp professor tells you to deliver shocks to someone trying to learn word pairs, take a moment to remember Sunita's advice. First off, acknowledge your anxiety. That yucky feeling is a good thing. It's a signal that something feels off.

然后思考你的价值观。它们如何指导你在此情境中的行动？接下来，聚焦你的不适感。如果你感到足够安全并相信会产生影响，就给出你真实的拒绝。反抗。

Then consider your values. How might they guide your actions in this situation? Next, focalize your discomfort. And then if you feel safe enough and believe it could have an impact, go ahead and give your true no. Defy.

研究表明你会因此更快乐。下一期节目中，我们将继续返校系列，介绍2025年我最喜欢的另一本书。我们将聆听专家讲解如何利用环境塑造健康和幸福，并听取他关于如何将地球上最健康的地方带入自家厨房的建议。所有这些内容将在下一期的《幸福实验室》中，由我劳里·桑托斯博士为您呈现。美国军事大学，为像您这样的军人提供高质量、负担得起的教育，专为您的 lifestyle 打造。

The research shows you'll be happier for it. In the next episode, we'll continue our back to school series with another one of my favorite books from 2025. We'll hear from an expert on how we can use our environments to shape our health and our happiness, and we'll hear his tips for how we can bring the healthiest places on the planet into our own kitchens. All that next time on the happiness lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos. American Military University, where service members like you can access high quality affordable education built for your lifestyle.

在线课程适应部署、训练和不可预测的日程安排，AMU让您无论身在何处都能获得学位。其优先军事费率将本科和硕士学费保持在每学分仅250美元。并且提供24/7心理健康支持、职业辅导和其他服务，AMU致力于您在服役期间及之后的成功。了解更多信息，请访问amu.apus.edu/military。即amu.apus.edu/military。

With online programs that fit around deployments, training, and unpredictable schedules, AMU makes it possible to earn your degree no matter where duty takes you. Their preferred military rate keeps tuition at just $250 per credit hour for undergraduate and master's tuition. And with twenty four seven mental health support plus career coaching and other services, AMU is committed to your success during and after your service. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. That's amu.apus.edu/military.

我是幸福实验室的劳里·桑托斯博士。如果您曾感到失衡，有时换个环境是最好的重置方式。达美航空邀请四位创作者探索一个想法：如果旅行不仅仅是移动，而是在行进中充电呢？结果如何？

This is doctor Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. If you've ever felt off balance, sometimes a change of scenery is the best reset. Delta invited four creators to explore one idea. What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? And the results?

根据他们的Oura Ring睡眠评分，每个人都以更休息的状态迎接新的一天，并且一种清晰感在旅行结束后持续很久。与达美一起，飞得更好，活得更好。在达美的YouTube频道上探索完整旅程。

Based on their Oura Ring sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested, and a sense of clarity stayed long after the trip. With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel.

这是BetterHelp的广告。我们都曾有过那种史诗般的拼车经历。途中最好的朋友知道你渴望去葡萄牙寻找自我。这是人之常情。我们都在寻找倾听者，但并非每个人都具备帮助的能力。

This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience. Halfway through your best friends, and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal. It's human. We're all looking for someone to listen, but not everyone is equipped to help.

凭借超过十年的经验，BetterHelp为您匹配合适的治疗师。看看为何他们在1,700,000条客户会话评价中获得4.9分。访问betterhelp.com，首月享受10%折扣。

With over a decade of experience, BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist. See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1,700,000 client session reviews. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month.

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.