本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
临在，即能够留在房间里的能力。
Presence, the ability to stay in the room.
共情，即能够感受房间氛围的能力。
Empathy, the ability to feel the room.
以及调谐，即能够与房间同步变化的能力。
And attunement, the ability to move with the room.
为了在健康、长期的人际关系中保持动态，我们需要扩展自己对张力的承受力，扩展对摩擦的包容力。
The job for us to be in healthy relational long term dynamics is to expand our capacity for tension, expand our capacity for friction.
没错。
Right.
有一天，当我们完成了这项工作后，摩擦会减少。
One day after we've done this work, there will be less friction.
问题不在于你是否会破裂。
It's not whether or not you're going to rupture.
你绝对会，百分之千兆地会。
You absolutely 1,000 gazillion percent will.
大家好。
Hi, guys.
在今天的节目中，我们邀请了Beauvoje。
On today's episode, we have Beauvoje.
Beauvoje的知识非常丰富。
Beauvoje is such a wealth of information.
我觉得即使和她做十期节目，也还是只能触及她所拥有的知识的皮毛。
I feel like I could do 10 episodes with her and still just feel like I'm scratching the surface of everything she has to offer.
她是一位专注于关系修复的伴侣治疗师，深知修复为何如此重要。
Is a couples practitioner that focuses on repair in relationships and why that's so important.
她还是哥伦比亚大学的伴侣研究者，甚至在伴侣治疗中研究MDMA的应用。
She's also a couples researcher at Columbia University where she even does some research with MDMA in couples therapy.
Bea真的非常有趣。
Bea was so interesting.
我相信你们会喜欢这一期的。
I think you guys are going to love this one.
Beauvoje，非常感谢你来到这里。
Beauvoje, thank you so much for being here.
能与你共处一室，我感到无比荣幸。
It is truly an honor to be in your presence.
能来到这里，我真是感激不尽。
Oh, I'm so grateful to be here.
你专门从事关系方面的咨询工作。
So you really specialize in relationship work.
不仅仅是关系，更是关系的修复。
And not just relationships, but relationship repair.
是这样吗？
Is that correct?
是的。
Yeah.
你既做研究，也与客户合作？
And you do research and you work with clients?
是的。
Yeah.
我两者都做。
I do both.
我专门研究MDMA对伴侣的影响，非常有趣。
I do research specifically with MDMA and couples Cool.
与哥伦比亚大学和MAPS合作。
With Columbia University and MAPS.
然后我为患者提供伴侣治疗和团体治疗。
And then I work just with patients doing couples work and group work
以及关系修复。
and repair work.
那么你能告诉我，你认为是什么因素让长期健康的关系得以维持吗？
So can you tell me what do you think is the factor that makes long term healthy relationships?
嗯，我的答案可能不会让你感到意外。
Well my answer is not gonna be surprising here.
我们中很少有人拥有健康的恋爱关系模式。
Very few of us have healthy relationship models.
我经常在演讲时问观众：有多少人曾从父母或照顾者身上学到过值得效仿的关系模式？
I speak to audiences and I will often ask people how many of you have had models from your caregivers or your parents that you want to emulate in your relationship?
我敢打赌，你的大多数听众都不会惊讶于没有人举手。
And I bet most of your listeners are not gonna be surprised that hands don't go up.
这些就是我们形成认知的关键时期。
So these are our informative years.
然后我们进入了社会文化。
Then we come into culture.
除非你接受治疗、学习自助书籍、沉浸于关系类读物，或者追随心理咨询师等，否则社会上根本不存在关于关系的对话。
And there is no dialogue unless you're in therapy, unless you're studying self help, unless you immerse yourself in relationship books or follow therapists or whatever it is.
在主流文化中，没有任何地方在告诉你健康的关系是什么样子的。
There's nowhere in the zeitgeist that is telling you what healthy relationships look like.
我们从小被迪士尼和好莱坞浪漫喜剧塑造，这听起来可能有点幼稚和陈词滥调，但事实是，想想你看过多少遍迪士尼电影。
We have been modeled from Disney, Hollywood rom coms, and it might sound kind of silly and trite but the truth is imagine how many times you have watched one or two Disney movies.
你可能会说，哦对，我记得小时候看了《小美人鱼》七百遍之类的。
You could probably be like, oh yeah, I remember watching The Little Mermaid 700 times as a kid or whatever it was.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这不可能不会潜移默化地让你觉得，这就是该追求的东西。
There's no way that doesn't seep into the back of your mind as like, that's the thing to look for.
没错。
Totally.
然后我们再看好莱坞的爱情喜剧，情况也一样。
And then we see Hollywood rom coms, same thing.
总有一个幸福圆满的时刻。
There's this happily ever after moment.
会有激烈的大争吵，然后迎来幸福结局。
There are big, huge fights and then happily ever afters.
现在再加上社交媒体，上面的叙事全是#情侣目标这样的标签。
And now add on social media where the narrative is hashtag couple goals.
你看到那些有六个孩子的父母，看起来却井然有序，你会想：等等。
And you see parents who have six kids who look totally put together and you're like, wait a second.
这根本不像我所处的关系。
That just does not look like the relationship I'm in.
是的。
Yes.
因此，要真正理解什么是健康、长期、安全运作的关系，真的很难。
And so it's really hard to actually understand what a healthy long term secure functioning relationship is.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我想说的是，而且你对此不会感到惊讶，我其实并不关心情侣们争吵多少。
So what I would say, and again, you're not gonna be surprised by this, is that I don't actually care how much couples fight.
好的。
Okay.
情侣争吵的频率并不能作为关系健康或不健康的标准。
How much couples fight is not an indicator of health or sickness in a relationship.
真的吗？
Really?
现在，人们如何争吵才重要。
Now how people fight matters.
我们不希望彼此大喊大叫。
We don't want to be screaming at each other.
我们不希望互相辱骂。
We don't want to be calling each other names.
但事实上，我们总会被触发情绪。
But like, the truth is, we're gonna get triggered.
我们会说出一些后悔的话。
We're gonna say things we regret.
我们难免会说错话，或者说出一些我们非常害怕讲出口的话，而且表达得不够好。
We're we're gonna have to walk back things we say or or say things that we are really scared to say and say them wrong.
我的意思是，这就是两个或更多神经系统交织在一起，决定共舞这场名为亲密的关系时的本性。
I mean, that's the nature of two or more nervous systems coming together and saying let's do this dance called intimacy.
是的。
Yeah.
我现在非常相信，关系健康最健康的指标是修复。
Now what I very much believe is the healthiest indicator of relational health is repair.
嗯。
Mhmm.
关键不在于你们会不会发生裂痕。
It's not whether or not you're going to rupture.
你们绝对会，百分之千百倍地会。
You absolutely 1,000 gazillion percent will.
而在于你们能多快、多好地重新走到一起。
It's how quickly and how well can you come back together.
顺便说一句，在一开始，你们能多好、多快地修复？
And at the beginning by the way, how well and how quickly?
我得告诉你，很可能，大概不会很好，也不会很快。
I gotta tell you, likely, probably not very well, and not very quickly.
这需要练习。
It takes practice.
修复关系并不是一件简单的事，如果我们回顾自己成长过程中所处的系统以及家庭模式，往往会发现，家庭中要么是彻底的战争，要么就是从不发生冲突。
Repair is not something again, if we look at the systems that we were raised in and the models that we were given from our family structures, Oftentimes people are seeing all out war in our families and nobody's making up or they're not seeing any conflict.
冲突可能发生在卧室里，孩子没有看到；或者冲突被压抑着，没有说出口，但作为小孩子却能感受到。
And the conflict may happen in the bedroom and the kids aren't watching or it might be seething and it's not spoken but it's felt as a little one.
我们当中很少有人目睹过连接、断裂与修复这一自然循环。
Very few of us are watching the very natural cycle of connection, disconnection, and repair.
这种连接、断裂与修复的循环，就像呼吸一样自然。
And this cycle of connection, disconnection, repair is as natural as breathing.
这就像我们刚从子宫来到这个世界时，心里想：太好了。
It's like we literally come out of a womb into the world and we're like, cool.
我在这里了。
I'm here.
然后会发生什么？
And then what happens?
通常我们会开始哭泣，这是疏离。
Usually we start crying, disconnection.
好的。
Okay.
现在妈妈把我们抱到乳房上。
Now mom puts us on her boob.
啊，修复了。
Ah, repair.
大声的噪音，哭闹。
Loud noise, crying.
有人过来轻轻摇晃我们。
Somebody comes and rocks us.
哦，连接、疏离、再连接、修复。
Oh, connection, disconnection, connection, repair.
这是一个非常自然的循环。
It is such a natural cycle.
但因为我们没有看到这种模式被示范过，所以我们不认为断开连接是自然的，于是当我们发生争执时，就觉得一定哪里出了问题。
But because we don't see that modeled, we don't think that disconnection is actually natural and so we feel like if we fight then something is wrong.
因此，我们更早地结束了关系。
And so we're leaving relationships earlier.
我们可以随意滑动选择无数人，所以我们现在生活在一个尤其在我们的社会中，选择下一个人变得如此容易，而不再愿意深入下去。
We're able to swipe as many people as we want and so we now are living in a world especially in our society where it's so easy to choose next and not opt into deepening.
但我们没有这样做，部分原因其实并不在于我们自己。
But part of why we're not doing that is not actually the fault of our own.
而是因为我们不理解，破裂和冲突其实是健康的。
It's because we don't understand how healthy it is to have rupture and to have conflict.
好吧。
Okay.
我的意思是，你听过多少次，无论是你自己的关系，还是别人的关系，有人说——也许你自己也说过——我觉得这段关系本该更轻松些。
I mean, how many times, by the way, have you heard whether in a relationship of your own or somebody else has said or maybe you've even said, I'm I feel like this should be easier.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我对我自己的关系也说过这话。
I've said it about my own relationship.
我对我父母的关系也说过这话。
I've said it about my parents' relationship.
完全没错。
Totally.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得，甚至只是这种想法都非常普遍，无论你是否真的对别人说出口，除了你的治疗师。
Even just that's so common, I think, to think and say to yourself whether you're actually saying it out loud to anyone besides your therapist.
没错。
That's right.
没错。
That's right.
而且我要说，我也不主张制造大量冲突。
And listen, I'm also not advocating for a bunch of conflict.
我只是说，如果你有这种情况，有些伴侣之间的冲突确实比其他人更激烈。
I'm just saying that if you have it, some couples are actually more high conflict than others.
有些伴侣会更倾向于回避冲突。
Some couples are gonna be more conflict avoidant.
对。
Right.
我们会在三种关系阶段中循环往复。
There are three stages of relationships that we sort of cycle in and out of.
第一个阶段就是我们熟知的蜜月期，对吧？
The first is what we know is the honeymoon phase right?
我称之为融合。
I call it the merge.
也就是说，两个或更多神经系统结合在一起，感觉好像找到了自己缺失的一部分，现在整个人都完整了。
Which is just again two or more nervous systems coming together and being like wow there's a part of me that was missing and now it just feels whole.
然后进入第二个阶段，我们会开始觉得，那些最初看起来挺可爱的特质，现在却真的让我很烦。
And then there's a second phase where we start to be like, okay, those things that were kind of cute annoyed me a little at the beginning are starting to really grind my gears.
而这些曾经可爱的小事，现在却变成了‘我实在受不了你这么邋遢’、‘你为什么从来不做饭’之类的抱怨，那些微小的裂痕逐渐演变成更大的冲突。
And now those cute things turn into like, I can't deal with the fact that you're so messy or why don't you ever cook or, you know, whatever small micro ruptures end up happening that turn into bigger ruptures.
但到了这个时候，我们需要从‘融合’阶段走出来——虽然我有点犹豫是否要用这个词，但它对人们来说可能很有帮助，那就是依赖。
But at this point, we need to move from the merge where we're a little bit, I hesitate to even use this term but it can be helpful for people codependence.
我们就像变成了一个人。
It's like we're one.
我们有点界限模糊了。
We are we're a little bit enmeshed.
是的。
Yeah.
然后我们需要开始分化。
And then we need to differentiate.
对。
Right.
到了那时，我们就进入了独立阶段。
And at that point we move into independence.
对。
Right.
这是另一个阶段，也正是在这个阶段我们遭遇了权力斗争。
That's another stage and this is also where we hit the power struggle.
冲突真正开始显现了。
This is where conflict really starts to hit.
我们的创伤和行为模式开始真正浮现。
This is where our wounds, our patterning really starts to show up.
大多数人基本上发现，大多数人会在整个关系中停留在权力斗争阶段。
Most people And basically, they have found that most people stay in the the power struggle for their whole relationship.
他们根本不知道如何摆脱。
They don't actually know how to get out.
真的吗？
Really?
而第三阶段是相互依存。
And then the third stage is interdependence.
这时候你会想，好吧。
This is where you're like, okay.
你就是彻头彻尾的妮可。
You are Nicole through and through.
我就是彻头彻尾的比娅。
I am Bea through and through.
你不是我。
You are not me.
我不是你。
I am not you.
顺便说一句，我无法改变你。
And by the way I cannot change you.
还有一个过程叫做幻灭，每对情侣都会经历，但很多情侣在这个过程中结束了关系。
And so there's a process called disillusionment which every couple goes through, but a lot of couples end the relationship during this process.
这个过程表现为失去希望。
And the process looks like losing hope.
我感觉我再也无法继续下去了。
It looks like I can't do this anymore.
你那边的一切都让我难以承受。
Everything over on your side of the street kills me.
我真的受不了了，这太多了。
Like I can't this is too much.
有些关系确实应该结束。
And for some relationships they should end.
我不认为所有关系都必须维持下去。
I don't necessarily think that all relationships should stay together.
但在幻灭的过程中，你可以问自己一个问题，这是来自杰出的伴侣治疗师特里·里尔的建议，他认为这个问题极其出色：在这段关系中，我是否得到了足够的支持，来为我所缺失的部分哀悼？
But there's a way where through the process of disillusionment you ask yourself, and this is from Terry Reel who's a fantastic couples therapist, and he asks this question that I think is absolutely brilliant which is, Am I getting enough in this relationship in order to grieve what I'm not?
在这段关系中，我是否得到了足够的支持，来为我所缺失的部分哀悼？
Am I getting enough in this relationship in order to grieve what I'm not?
你本质上是在说，你会始终如一地做一个人，带着你所有的缺点。
What you're basically saying you're going to be human through and through with all of your fallacies.
除非你愿意改变，否则我无法改变你。
And unless you want to change I can't change you.
最终这必须由你决定，因为当我试图控制你、希望你与我不同的时候，改变是不会发生的。
It's ultimately got to be up to you because change doesn't happen when I try to control you, when I want you to be different from me.
那些希望被改变的人，会感到被控制，而没有人喜欢这种被控制的感觉。
The person who is on the other side of wanting to be changed, we feel controlled and nobody likes feeling controlled.
因此，我们通常会固执己见。
And so we'll usually dig our heels in.
所以，幻灭的过程就是放手，说：好吧，我无法做任何事让你变得不同。
So disillusionment is the process of surrendering and saying, Okay, I can't do anything to make you different.
我可以表达我的痛苦。
I can speak my pain.
我可以使用眼神语言表达。
I can speak using eye language.
我可以恳求你。
I can beg you.
我可以做我能做的，但你可能依然保持着三年前的行为，而这些行为并不会改变。
I can and still you may have the same behaviors that you had three years ago and they're not going anywhere.
然后我必须做出决定：这对我来说能接受吗？
And then I get to make the decision Does that work for me?
如果答案是肯定的，我需要经历些什么？
And what do I need to go through if the answer is yes?
我需要经历怎样的哀悼过程？
What grieving process?
我需要经历怎样的接纳过程，才能接受你实际上永远不会变得整洁？
What acceptance process do I need to go through in order to say okay you're actually never going to be clean?
或者在更深层次上，也许你永远无法和我的家人和睦相处。
Or on much deeper levels, maybe you're never going to get along with my family.
也许在某些我真心希望你答应的时刻，你却会说不。
Or maybe you're going to say no in moments I really wish you would say yes.
而这总会让我觉得，我并没有被真正关心。
And it's always going to make me feel like I'm not actually cared for.
那么，如果我希望达到接纳的状态，我需要做哪些努力呢？
What work do I do then to come into acceptance if acceptance is where I want to go?
当我们要求伴侣改变，而伴侣却没有改变，然后我们因此感到沮丧时，实际上是在放弃自己的力量；而幻灭其实是一个非常棒的过程。
But we take away our own power when we need our partners to change and then our partner doesn't and then we get all upset over here when actually disillusionment is is a fantastic process.
如果你此刻正在听，并且觉得：‘我该留下，还是该离开？’
Like it's a if you're here, if you're listening and you're like, oh, I am in the place where I am feeling like, I stay or should I go?
对。
Right.
我正在问自己这个问题。
I'm asking myself that question.
我们一直陷在同样的模式里很久了。
We've been in the same patterns for a really long time.
那么，这个问题真的能帮助你开始理解：哪些是我该承担的，如何面对哀伤，真正深入地
Then this question can really, really support you starting to understand what's mine to do, grief work, really getting into
非常抱歉。
So sorry.
让我
Let me
稍等一下。
just pause for a second.
所以我们真的需要进行哀悼工作，来告别那些我们得不到、却渴望的伴侣特质。
So we literally need to do grief work to mourn the pieces of our partner that we are not getting, that we are craving.
一个很傻但对很多人非常贴切的例子是，一个人爱干净，另一个人却很邋遢。
So the silly example, but so relevant for so many people, is one person is clean and the other one is messy.
对吧？
Right?
一个是A型性格，一个是B型性格，或者其中一个更偏向B型。
One is type a, one is type b, or more type b than the other.
他们就是不肯叠被子，或者不捡地上的脏衣服，这简直让你抓狂。
And it drives you bananas that they just cannot make the bed when they get out of it or pick up their dirty laundry.
对吧？
Right?
这会让人发疯，逐渐积累成怨恨。
And it can drive you crazy and just build up to be this resentment thing.
你真的需要进行哀悼工作，才能真正理解。
You literally need to do grief work to just understand.
几乎就像是，那个原本期待被满足的自我部分，我需要为它哀悼。
Almost like the piece of me that is going to have that fulfilled, I need to mourn.
这个说法非常好。
It's a really good way to put it.
没关系。
That's Okay.
说得太对了。
That's exactly it.
你永远不会在早上叠被子。
You are never going to make the bed in the morning.
这是个非常好的例子。
It's a really good example.
或者你从来不会收拾自己的东西。
Or you're never gonna pick up after yourself.
而可能在我这边，我一直都在替你收拾。
And maybe on my end, I have been picking up after you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我现在完全感到怨恨。
So now I'm totally resentful.
嗯。
Mhmm.
不是因为你要求我这么做，而是因为我希望事情以某种方式呈现。
Not because you've asked me to do it, but because I prefer it a certain way.
对。
Right.
所以问题来了：如果我希望家里看起来是某种样子，我是否愿意替你收拾，因为这对我来说很重要——而不是扮演受害者，即我咬着牙做这些事，然后期待得到认可，下次再做时又生气，觉得自己像在照顾孩子，于是我们陷入了父母与孩子的角色关系中。
So the question becomes, if I want the house to look a certain way, am I willing to pick up after you because it's important to me not taking the space of martyr which is I'm gonna do this with gritted teeth and then hope I get validation for it and be angry the next time I have to do it and feel like you're my child and now we're in a parent child dynamic.
这一切实际上剥夺了你自己的选择自主权，因为当我们觉得伴侣的改变不是因为我们的缘故，当我们觉得他们不改变是因为不够爱我们、不够在乎我们，或者每次经过垃圾时都不去倒，纯粹是为了报复我们——无论对你来说具体是什么原因。
And so there's there's all of this that basically takes back your own autonomy of choice because when we feel like our partner's not changing because of us, when we feel like they're not changing because they don't love us enough or because they don't care enough or because they walk by the trash every time and they don't take it out because they're literally doing it as a vindictive behavior against us, whatever it is for you.
我一直在说这一点，因为我觉得这太重要了。
Like, I keep saying this because I think it's so important.
我们实际上把太多对内心状态的控制权交给了对方，而这种过程正是让我们摆脱权力斗争的关键。
We literally give them so much control over our internal state and the process of disillusionment, which gets us out of the power struggle, by the way.
它明确地表明：我愿意让关系中的一些部分死去，以便一种新的关系能够重生。
It literally says, I am going to let parts of our relationship die in order for a new kind of relationship to be reborn.
你可能听过像伊斯特·佩雷尔这样的人谈论过，他们曾多次与同一个人结婚，但在此之前，他们的关系必须先死亡。
You may have heard like people like Esther Perel or others talk about how many times they've been married all to the same person but that their relationship leading up had to die.
这段关系确实必须彻底终结、消亡，才能迎来重生，从而让他们理解什么是新的关系。
It literally had to go the way that they recognized their relationship before literally had to go away and die in order to be reborn so they could understand what the new relationship is.
但我们中有太多人害怕松开这个钩子。
But so many of us are so scared to loosen the hook.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们保留着这个钩子，因为它将我们与控制、安全、爱以及不被抛弃、不被遗弃、不必面对孤独联系在一起。
So we keep the hook because it tethers us to control and safety and love and not being abandoned or left or needing to deal with being alone.
因此，我们宁愿面对这种痛苦——‘我真不敢相信你还是不收拾自己’。
And so we would much rather deal with that pain which is I can't believe you're still not picking up after yourself.
也不愿面对‘你永远不会改变’的痛苦。
Then the pain of you're never gonna change.
这可能根本与我无关，而唯一能对此做点什么的人，只有我自己。
It may or may not have anything to do with me And I'm the only person who can do anything about that.
我猜，当你处于像艾斯特·佩雷尔那样长期的婚姻关系中时，这种情况也同样适用。
And I would assume this is also relevant when you're in a long term relationship such as Esther Perel has been in a long term marriage.
对吧？
Right?
作为人类，我们一生中都会不断变化。
We all change as human beings throughout the course of our life.
我和我的伴侣从我25岁起就在一起了。
I, my partner and I have been together since I was 25.
我25岁的时候和31岁的时候完全不同。
I was so different at 25 than I am at 31.
他也是。
And same for him.
真的感觉我们现在和那时完全是两个人。
It truly feels like two completely different people than we are now.
我也经历过那种时刻，我相信很多人都有，天啊，我当初爱上他的那种特质现在已经不存在了。
And I've had that moment as I'm sure many people have where it's, god, this quality that I fell in love with isn't really present anymore.
因为他成长了，我也成长了。
Like, because he has grown up and I've grown up.
你知道的。
You know?
我肯定也有一些特质。
I'm sure there are qualities of of mine.
我们以前每周出去喝酒四晚。
Like, we used to go out drinking four nights a week.
我已经好几个月没喝酒了。
I haven't had a drink in months.
就是这些事情。
It's just it's those things.
比如，无论是生活方式还是让你感到兴奋的事物，都会随着时间改变。
Like, whether it's lifestyle or just the things that light you up change over time.
你也需要为这些事情哀悼吗？
Do you need to mourn those as well?
任何你紧抓不放的东西
Anything that you're holding onto
是的。
Mhmm.
如果它正在造成你的痛苦，那就需要哀悼。
That is causing your own suffering, there is mourning to do.
需要经历一段悲伤的过程。
There is grief to move through.
是的。
Mhmm.
因为承受痛苦的是你。
Because you're the one in the suffering.
这是最重要的事情。
And that's the most important thing to know.
就拿你提到的伴侣为例，他们可能并不在意你已经四个月没喝酒了。
Just using the example you gave for your partner it might not bother them that you haven't drank in four months.
但对你来说，也许这确实让你在意，或者他们在意的是你以前每周外出四次，而现在你更喜欢待在家里，而真正感受到这种影响的是谁呢？
And for you maybe it does bother you or maybe it bothers them that you used to go out four nights a week and now you're more of a homebody and who's the one who's feeling the impact Right.
这种影响。
Of that.
对。
Right.
当然，你可以和你的伴侣谈谈这一点。
And of course you can bring this to your partner.
你不需要独自完成这一切，但当你向伴侣提出时，如果带着让他们改变以让你更舒适的意图，对方绝对不会喜欢这种感觉。
It's not like you have to do this all by yourself but when you bring it to your partner and you do it with an agenda for them to be different so that you are more comfortable, nobody on the other side of that likes how that feels.
我的意思是，谁经历过别人想改变自己，还感觉像在控制你呢？
I mean, who's listening has gone through somebody wanting to change them and it feels like control.
他们就会想，我就是不想这么做。
And they're like, I don't wanna do it.
所以，你又会更加固执，因为我们希望自己是能自主做决定的独立个体。
And so again, you dig your heels in because we want to feel like we're autonomous human beings making our own choices.
对。
Right.
因为只有这样，我们才能为自己感到骄傲，才能通过饮酒习惯或其他任何事情来看待自己。
Because then we can be proud of ourselves and we can see ourselves through drinking habit or whatever happens to be.
但如果伴侣一直说，比如，你需要戒酒。
But if our partner keeps saying, need you to stop drinking, for instance.
对。
Right.
别喝了。
Stop drinking.
别喝了。
Stop drinking.
于是你现在开始对自己的饮酒关系感到羞愧，而这种感觉你可能并不想拥有。
Then you're now feeling your own shame about your relationship with drinking that maybe you don't wanna have.
没有人喜欢感到羞愧。
And nobody likes to feel shame.
那我们该怎么办？
So what are we gonna do?
我们很可能什么也不做，因为现在我们只想证明你是错的，我是对的。
We're probably not gonna do anything about it because now we wanna prove a point that you're wrong and we're right.
该死。
Fuck.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
这太真实了。
It's just so real.
所以我特别兴奋能和你聊聊，因为你的工作一针见血地指出了我所有经历过和观察到的关系的核心。
That's why I was so excited to talk to you because your work just hits the nail on the head of, like, every relationship I've ever been a part of and observe.
我们争吵，其实真正的问题在于如何解决冲突、提升自我觉察，以及深刻理解什么是真正的问题，以及该如何应对。
It's we fight, and it's really about that conflict resolution and that self awareness and deep understanding of what is the real problem and how do I deal with it.
我的意思是，任何和优秀治疗师合作过的人，都会理解这个概念：你无法改变对方，所以你必须改变自己。
I mean, anybody who's working with a good therapist will understand the concept of you're not gonna change them, so you have to work on you.
对吧？
Right?
但‘我必须为此哀悼’这个概念，对我来说简直颠覆认知。
But the concept of I have to grieve that is mind blowing to me.
这正是我们大多数人不愿面对的，因为哀悼实在太难了。
It's it's what most of us don't want to face because grieving is so much harder So hard.
而且更脆弱，是的。
And more vulnerable Yeah.
比指责别人更难。
Than pointing the finger.
天哪。
Oh god.
对。
Yeah.
即使我们没有大声指出来，也是这样。
Even if we're not pointing it out loud, by the way.
即使我们只是低声嘀咕，也比面对问题容易得多。
Even if we're just muttering it under our breaths, it's so much easier than to address the okay.
我的一个完美例子。
I mean, I perfect example.
这听起来可能很小，但却是我和我妻子之间巨大的紧张来源。
This might sound small, but it has been a huge source of tension for me and my wife.
她比我外向得多。
She is so much more extroverted than I am.
她精力充沛得像永动机一样，而我却没有。
And she has energy like an Energizer bunny, and I just don't.
所以她能彻夜在外。
And so she could stay out all night.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而我九点就上床了。
And I'm, like, in bed by nine.
是的。
Yeah.
那是一个很棒的周六晚上。
And that's a good Saturday night.
你知道的？
You know?
也许在特别疯的一晚上会到十点。
Maybe ten on like a wild night.
懂吗？
Know?
是的。
Yeah.
她不想回家。
She doesn't wanna come home.
在我们关系刚开始的时候，我真的很觉得不一起回家感觉很糟糕。
And at the beginning of our relationship, I really felt like not going home together felt terrible.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为我带着之前恋爱经历的种种想法进入这段关系，我害怕她在外头时会发生什么事。
I was because of all the things that I brought into our relationship based based on previous relationships, I was scared something was gonna happen when she was out.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我担心她会突破界限。
I was scared she was gonna break a boundary.
我害怕任何事情。
I was scared of whatever.
所以独自回家对我来说非常难，但如果我们能一起回家，那就容易多了。
And so going home was so intense to do by myself, but it was so much easier being like, can't we just go home together?
健康的情侣会一起回家，而不是把这当成是我自己的不适。
Healthy couples go home together than actually being like, this is actually my discomfort.
经过很长一段时间，我的意思是，我们花了大概两年才真正克服，因为我们的过去带来了许多复杂的动态。
And over the course of a long time, I mean, took probably two years for us to really move through because there were so many layered dynamics from both of our histories.
是的。
Yeah.
她的关于自由，我的关于安全，一次又一次，我都在面对那个害怕被抛弃的自己，那个害怕被背叛的自己，那个害怕早上醒来就听到‘我得告诉你一件事’的自己。
Hers about freedom, mine around safety, that over and over again, I was addressing the part of me that is so scared to be left, the part of me that's scared to be cheated on, the part of me that's so scared to be woken up in the morning just to hear, I have to tell you something.
带着这种‘糟了’的感觉。
With this like, uh-oh.
就是这样，这也是我过去的一部分。
Like that and that's part of that's part of my history.
所以它自然会在关系中显现出来。
And so of course it's showing up in the relationship.
对。
Right.
但这里正是我关于关系的某种精神信念发挥作用的地方。
But here is where my kind of spiritual beliefs about relationship come into play.
我相信，当我们进入一段关系时，我们中的大多数人并不知道自己正在这样做——我们会带着所有未愈合的过往关系进入关系。
I believe that we walk into a relationship and most of us don't know that we're doing this but we walk into relationship with all of the unhealed relationships behind us.
无论是来自父母或照顾者，还是来自前任，或是朋友，任何亲密关系，我们都会带着那些从未被处理过的一切走进去。
Whether it's from our caregivers or parents, whether it's from exes, whether it's from friendships, but any intimate relationship, we're walking with all the things that just never got dealt with.
对。
Right.
我们本质上是在对伴侣说，尽管没有明说，也没有真正意识到或了解这一点：这里就是我所有未愈合的伤痛。
And we're basically saying to our partners without saying this and without really understanding or knowing this, here is all of my unhealed wounding.
对。
Right.
你会帮我疗愈它吗？
Will you help me heal it?
对。
Right.
而作为伴侣，我们当时无意识地、没有觉察地回应说：是的，我愿意和你一起做这份工作。
And as the partner, we are then opting in not consciously and not with awareness to saying, yeah, I'll do that work with you.
不是因为必须，而是因为我爱你，因为我选择这么做。
Not because I have to, but because I love you and because I choose to.
那么，我和艾米最终发生了什么？
And so what ended up happening with Emmy and I?
她开始回家的时间不再是按照我希望的，而是比她原本想的还要早。
She started coming home not when I wanted her to, but earlier than she would have wanted.
而且她从未一回家就对我说：亲爱的，我得告诉你一件事。
And not once did she ever come home and say, Hey baby, I have to tell you something.
随着时间的推移，我的神经系统开始接受：她晚归并不意味着我事后会感到被背叛。
And over time my nervous system started to sink into her staying out later doesn't mean that I'm gonna feel betrayal on the back end.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但即使承认这一点，我还是觉得自己是个软弱的伴侣。
But even admitting that, I felt like the weak partner.
我觉得自己是那个更加脆弱的伴侣。
I felt like the way more vulnerable partner.
我觉得自己是那个带着包袱的人。
I felt like the one who had baggage.
我就是觉得，每次照镜子时都要面对：我是那个不想和你分开、也不愿放手、甚至试图压低自己的界限来陪你更晚的人，这真的让我很不好受。
Like I just felt it was it was really not fun for me to have to look in the mirror and be like, I'm the one who doesn't want to separate from you and I'm not willing to I tried it to override my boundaries to stay later.
结果并不好。
It did not go well.
很多次，很多次。
Many, many times.
并且要面对这种紧张和摩擦：好吧，这并不是我想要的，但这就是正在发生的事。
And deal with that with the tension the friction of okay this isn't what I want but this is what's happening.
然后一次又一次，在细微的瞬间告诉自己：好吧，我们可以做到。
And then over and over again and in small micro moments being like, okay, we can do this.
我认为在关系中，我们明白坠入爱河需要什么——实际上什么也不需要。
I think what happens in relationships is we understand what it takes to fall in love, literally nothing.
你感受到一种能量上的连接。
You feel an energetic connection.
你觉得某人很吸引人，然后就想：太好了。
You think someone's hot and you're like, great.
那就开始吧。
Let's do this.
但我们不明白维持爱需要什么。
We don't understand what it takes to stay in love.
对。
Right.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
因此，我真正要指出的是，我们所有人都将遇到的必要摩擦。
And so what I'm actually pointing to is the necessary friction that all of us are going to come up.
我们必须面对这种摩擦。
We have to come up against this friction.
这个问题如此棘手的原因是，虚拟世界正越来越追求无摩擦化。
What makes this so tricky is the virtual world is trying to more and more be as frictionless as possible.
对。
Right.
滑动屏幕来结识伴侣，点几下按钮就能
Swipe to meet our partners, click a few buttons to
获取食物。
get food.
这不仅仅是关系问题。
It's not just the relationships.
而是我们被训练在生活的方方面面都追求即时满足和即时多巴胺刺激。
It's the instant gratification and that instant dopamine hit that we are conditioned in all areas of our life to have now.
我们认为我们的关系也应该模仿
And we think that our relationships should mimic
那种无摩擦的体验。
that frictionless experiences.
那些无摩擦的体验。
Those frictionless experiences.
但根本不是这样。
But that's not it at all.
它们实际上不应该模仿。
They shouldn't actually mimic.
我们要建立健康、持久的关系，关键在于提升自己对张力的承受力，提升对摩擦的包容力。
The job for us to be in healthy relational long term dynamics is to expand our capacity for tension, expand our capacity for friction.
是的。
Right.
当我们完成这项工作后，总有一天，摩擦会减少。
One day after we've done this work, there will be less friction.
是的。
Right.
但你不能进入一段关系后，却回避它，不去经历那种痛苦的领悟过程——我们不该控制别人。
But you can't enter into a relationship and not have it and not go through the painful process of understanding, like, we shouldn't control somebody.
我们知道这行不通。
We know that doesn't work.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但很多时候，我们必须通过艰难的方式才能学会。
But oftentimes, we need to learn the hard way.
是的。
Right.
是的。
Right.
我们能回头谈谈你之前提到的三个阶段吗？
Can we walk back to the three stages that you laid out earlier?
我只是想让这些在我脑子里保持清晰。
I just wanna, like, have them fresh in my brain.
然后你坠入爱河。
So you fall in love.
蜜月阶段？
Honeymoon stage?
是的。
Yeah.
我们称之为蜜月。
We call it the honeymoon.
我称之为融合，因为那有点像我们是一只变形虫。
I call it the merge because it's a little bit of that, like, we're an amoeba.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
你让我完整。
You complete me.
而且你确实如此。
And you do.
在我们的关系里，至少前两年，说实话，就是这样。
You become at least in my relationship, it was that first, like, two years, honestly.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我当时简直飘飘欲仙。
I was just on cloud nine.
我们变成了一个该死的头脑和身体。
We became, like, one fucking brain and body.
你懂的？
You know?
然后，是的，那种感觉开始消退，你会觉得特别迷失。
And then, yeah, it's like that starts to lift and you're like, it's so disorienting.
到
By the
如果你们的蜜月期持续两年，通常这时候人们就会订婚或结婚。
way, if your honeymoon stage lasts two years, oftentimes, this is when people get engaged and married.
所以你现在进入了更高层次的承诺，却从未真正面对过那些创伤。
So now you're stepping into the next level of commitment without ever really bringing up the wounding.
无论哪种形式的承诺——比如同居、决定共度一生、或者生孩子——都会引发不同的依恋创伤。
And commitment on various levels whether it's moving in, whether it's deciding you're spending your lives together, whether it's having a baby, whatever it is, is going to bring up different attachment wounds.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，我只是想指出这一点：是的。
So anyhow, I just wanted to name Yeah.
如果你已经相处两年，却还在说：‘哇。’
That if you're two years in and being like, wow.
我的意思是，很多人在第一年结束时就订婚了。
I mean, a lot of people get engaged after year one.
对。
Yep.
不是每个人都会这样，但这种情况很常见。
Not everybody, but, know, it's common.
它和它
It and it
两年内就结婚并不常见。
wouldn't be common to be married after year two.
是的。
Yeah.
我们六个月后就搬在一起了，还没满一年就一起创业了。
We were we moved in after six months and started a business not even a year in.
所以，你知道的，这就会带来很大的压力。
So, like, it's, you know That'll do it.
这种承诺甚至可能比一上来就结婚还要大。
Potentially even more commitment than getting married, like, right off the bat.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
我们和我的家人一起创办了一家公司。
You're like, we started a business with my family.
简直是我那个极度紧密的家庭，通过
Like, could not be more my my very enmeshed family, by
顺便说一下。
the way.
哇。
Wow.
我们住在城市里，后来搬到了佛罗里达，开始经营这家企业，根本没意识到这会要求我们全职搬迁。
We lived in the city, moved to Florida, like, started this business, did not even realize it was going to require us to move full time.
当我们从融合阶段逐渐抽身时，已经深陷其中了。
And we're just so deep in it by the time we were lifting out of our merge phase.
我当时真的受不了了。
I was just not okay.
因为我就在想：什么？
Because I was just like, what?
我只是不知道发生了什么。
Like, I just didn't know what was going on.
我感觉特别迷失。
I just felt so disoriented.
好的。
Okay.
所以是融合阶段。
So merge phase.
那么第二阶段是什么？
And then the second phase is what?
第二阶段是独立。
So the second phase is independence.
这时候你们会彼此分离，突然之间，你会想，等等。
This is where you you separate from each other, and all of a sudden, you're like, wait a second.
你是一个独立的个体，而我也是另一个独立的个体。
You are an individual human being, and I am a different individual human being.
你有一些你热衷的事情，而我对这些并不热衷，这没关系。
There are things that you're passionate about that I'm not passionate about, and that is okay.
我曾经在这一点上很挣扎。
And I struggled with that.
我们真的有过那种时刻，我曾经想：你说什么？你不想24小时都跟我待在一起？
We genuinely had that like, I had those moments of like, what do you mean you don't wanna spend twenty four seven with me?
然后，当你真正反思时，你会意识到：我也不想24小时都和你待在一起。
And then, like, when you actually reflect, you're like, I don't wanna spend twenty four seven together.
像，能有独处的时间真的很棒，但再次说明，你只是走出了不同的阶段，然后你会想：这是否意味着
Like, that's so nice to have alone time, but it's once again, like, you're just out of this different phase, and you're like, does
这是否意味着我们不再相爱了？
that mean we're not in love anymore?
这就是权力斗争。
This is the power struggle.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我喜欢用变形虫这个比喻，因为它真的就像你们在努力把自己从彼此身上解开，等等。
I mean, I like the visual of an amoeba because it's literally like you're trying to, like, untangle yourselves from, wait a second.
我以为我们会一直这样下去，但现在不是了。
I thought we were gonna be like this forever, and now we're not.
这到底意味着什么？
And what does that actually mean?
这个阶段可能会持续，就像我说的，真的可能永远持续下去。
And this stage can take, I mean, like I said, literally forever.
对。
Right.
人们会在权力斗争中死去。
People die in the power struggle.
哇。
Wow.
人们会在权力斗争中离婚，也会在权力斗争中分手。
People divorce in the power struggle, and people split in the power struggle.
是的。
Right.
所以对我们许多人来说，这一阶段是主要部分。
So this phase is the bulk for many of us.
是的。
Right.
我们关系的主要部分。
The bulk of our relationships.
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Okay.
那么最后一个阶段叫什么？
And then the last phase is called what?
相互依赖。
Interdependence.
相互依存。
Interdependence.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是当我们接受的时候。
So this is where Where we accept.
是的。
Yeah.
我们接受。
We accept.
现在我们可以开始稍微看到彼此的才华，我们开始理解其中的好处。
And now we can start to see each other's genius a little bit We start to understand the benefits.
比如，我现在完全理解了我妻子晚点回家、我早点睡觉的好处。
Like, now I I actually totally see the benefits of me, my wife staying out later and me going to bed earlier.
而且正如你所说，当我不再试图晚归时，我有了更多的独处时间。
And to your point, like, I get more alone time when I don't try and stay out.
我不让自己精疲力尽。
I don't exhaust myself.
我的意思是，没错。
Mean, so right.
我开始觉得，等等，这实际上对这种关系模式是有道理的。
I'm start you're starting to be like, okay, wait, this actually makes sense for the dynamic.
这实际上对这种关系模式是健康的。
This is actually healthy for the dynamic.
我开始真正看到你是谁，并完全接纳你，而不是试图 clinging 于我原本以为你会成为的样子，或我期望会发生的事。
I start to see you for who you are and fully embrace that instead of try and cling to what I thought you were or what I wished was going to happen.
我的意思是，这简直就是在做哀伤疗愈，某种程度上，你正在哀悼一个可能永远不会实现的未来。
I mean, is talk about grief work, you're kind of grieving in some ways a future that may never manifest.
并接受当下现实：好吧，这就是现状。
And coming into present day acceptance of, okay, here's what exists.
我不知道我们会走向何方。
Don't know where we're going.
我不确定我们是否会改变。
I don't know if we're going to change.
然后对此有所软化、有所放手，不再那么紧抓着对事情应有样子的控制。
And then having a softening around that a surrendering around that, that's not so tightly gripped to the control of what things look like.
好的。
Okay.
但同样，这并不是一个快速的过程。
But again, that's not a quick process.
说起来容易。
It's a quick to say.
对。
Right.
简单，但并不容易。
Simple, not easy, though.
这真的需要人们花费数年时间。
This literally takes people years.
顺便说一下，我要指出的是，你可以处于相互依赖的状态，并且感觉一切都很美好。
And by the way, I'll just I'll just note, you can be an interdependence and be like, wow, things feel so good.
然后，你们中的一个人可能会经历一个重大转变，比如失业、生孩子、父母去世，或者任何其他事情。
And then one of you can go through a major transition, like you lose a job or you have a kid or a parent dies or anything.
接着，你们又可能立刻回到权力斗争中。
And then you can go right back into the power struggle.
你们也可能经历融合的时刻。
And you can also have moments of merging.
正如我们都知道的，关系并不是线性的。
As we all know, relationships are not so linear.
这并不是非黑即白的。
It's not so black and white.
其中有很多灰色地带。
There's a lot of gray.
有很多来回往复。
There's a lot of back and forth.
所以，我记得有一对夫妻经历了他们关系中最艰难的一年，他们说之所以没有离婚，只是因为离婚太麻烦了。
So you could have I I remember talking to one couple who went through the hardest year of their relationship, and they said the only reason they didn't get divorced was because it was such a pain in the ass.
而那之后，他们迎来了关系中最美好的一年。
And then that was followed by the best year of their relationship.
真惊人。
Wow.
他们说，如果没有这么难分开，他们根本不会继续在一起。
And there was they were saying there was no way they would have stayed together.
真惊人。
Wow.
如果不是真的很难分手的话。
Had it not been so hard to actually break up.
真惊人。
Wow.
我知道。
I know.
所以你永远无法预料。
So you just never know.
这太有趣了。
That is so interesting.
还有，我保证，我会给你时间，让事情自然发展。
The other and I'm I'm gonna promise I'm gonna let you time just have things coming up.
不。
No.
我喜欢这个。
I love it.
同样的事情太多了。
Same thing so much.
有个人 actually 告诉过我这件事，我觉得这个做法太聪明了。
Somebody else actually told me this and I thought this was a brilliant move.
当他们感到幻灭，或者你知道的，他们已经真正投入了。
When it came to their disillusionment or, you know, they had really committed.
他们已经全身心投入，虽然没有结婚，但却打算共度一生，或者至少希望如此。
They had gone all in and they weren't married but they were in it for life or they wanted to be.
他们彼此之间非常投入。
They were really committed to one another.
他们基本上说，如果我们到了其中一方想离开，或者出现了什么问题，我们就花一年时间尝试三种主要的干预方式。
Basically they said if we get to a point where one of us wants to leave, where something is going on, then we will take a year to try three major interventions.
无论对他们来说这意味着什么。
So whatever that is for them.
也许他们会去度一周的假。
Maybe they go on a week vacation.
也许这意味着他们开始全职接受心理咨询。
Maybe that means they start going to therapy full time.
你知道，无论他们决定采取哪些干预措施，都会由他们自己来定。
You know whatever it is for they would decide on what those interventions were.
也许这样就能解决问题，但如果不行，他们就会分开三个月。
Maybe that solves it but if it didn't then they would take three months apart.
好的。
Okay.
然后他们会再尝试三次。
And then they would try three more times.
哇。
Wow.
三、三、三。
Three three three.
我其实觉得这太棒了。
I actually thought that was so brilliant.
是的。
Yeah.
因为它给了你时间、空间和喘息的机会去经历一个巨大的过程。
Because it gives you the time and space and breath to go through a huge process.
对于我们中的一些人来说，不需要这样做。
Now for some of us we don't need to do that.
我们并不是打算长期在一起，或者还在决定这个人是否适合我们。
We're not in it for the long haul or we're still choosing whether or not this is our person.
但如果你已经全身心投入某人，觉得‘这就是我的人’，却不确定你们的关系是否健康。
But if you've gone all in with somebody and you're like this is my person and you don't know if you're in a healthy dynamic.
顺便说清楚，我这里说的不是虐待或操控型的关系。
I'm not talking about abusive or manipulative relationships, by the way, just to be very, very clear.
但你感觉，我们之间有很多紧张感。
But you're like, we have a lot of tension.
我不知道我们是否能应对这种情况。
I don't know if we're gonna be able to do that.
我受够了这种状况。
I'm sick of this thing.
我不知道自己是否能走出来。
I don't know if I'm gonna be able to get over it.
这时候，有一份指南可以帮助你度过这种紧张，让双方的神经系统都能在紧张中感到安全，因为很可能，其中一个神经系统会感到极度恐惧。
Then there's like a there's a road map that can kind of hold you through the tension so that both nervous systems can feel safe in the tension because more likely than not one nervous system is gonna feel really scared
嗯。
Mhmm.
想到事情会结束。
By the thought of things ending.
而其中一个人可能会因为自由的部分感到些许兴奋。
And one person might feel a little more excited because of the freedom piece.
因此，你们两人在面对分手和分开时的接受程度并不一定相同。
And so it's not necessary that you two will be in the same place around feeling acceptance around breaking up and splitting.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，不管怎样，这只是个想法。
So, anyhow, just an idea.
我真的很喜欢在结束时留出空间的想法。
I really love the idea of giving spaciousness around an ending.
是的。
Yeah.
还有一个行动计划。
And there's an action plan.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
有一个计划，所以这并不是一个你突然面对的黑暗而可怕的深渊。
There's a there's a plan, so it's not just like this dark, scary abyss that you come up with
对。
Right.
在你陷入深渊之前。
Before you're in the abyss.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yes.
我真的很喜欢这个想法。
I really like that idea.
我听过你使用‘共同调节’这个术语。
I've heard you use this term co regulation.
这个概念如何融入我们正在讨论的所有内容中呢？
How would that be how would that be a part of everything that we're talking
修复关系需要具备三个基本特质。
So repair takes three basic qualities to embody.
在我之前的治疗师一代，比如特里·里斯、埃丝特·佩雷尔、哈维尔夫妇、盖伊和凯蒂，所有那些前辈们。
The the generation of therapists who came before me, the Terry Reals, Esther Perels, the Harvilles, the Gay and Katie, like, all of the people who really came up in the generations before.
感谢他们，因为他们为我们提供了框架。
Thank God for them because they gave us frameworks.
他们为我们带来了镜像疗法。
They gave us imago.
他们为我们带来了非暴力沟通。
They gave us nonviolent communication.
他们为我们提供了四步道歉法。
They gave us a four step apology.
他们真正提供了这些框架，让我们无需刻意维持对话、修复关系或处理冲突。
They really gave the frameworks that we didn't have to hold a conversation, to hold repair, to hold conflict.
所以我认为这非常重要。
So I think that's so important.
而且我认为这就是第一步。
And I think that is step one.
到目前为止，在时代精神、文化对话和叙事中，我们将修复视为一种沟通技巧。
I think so far in the zeitgeist, in the cultural conversation and narrative, we think of repair as a communication skill.
好的。
Okay.
让我反思一下。
Let me be reflective.
让我复述你所说的话。
Let me repeat back what you say.
对吧？
Right?
你可以使用任何现有的模型。
And you can use any model that are, you know, any of the models out there.
但基本的理解是使用眼神交流，不说‘你让我感觉’，而说‘我感觉’，还有许多这类工具我们可以使用。
But there's like a basic understanding of using eye language and not saying you made me feel, but saying I feel or right there are there are all these kind of tools that we can use.
但我认为修复关系的下一步，对我来说最重要，也是为什么修复如此困难、为什么我们经常在争吵后仍感到痛苦、觉得‘为什么那些话没起作用’的原因。
But I actually think the next place we're going in repair which to me is the most important and part of why repair is so hard and part of why we are often left aching after a fight and feeling like why didn't that land?
为什么他们说的话就是没传达到呢？
Like why didn't what they say just land?
但本该传达到的，所以我想，即使我仍感到紧张，我也得原谅他们。
But it should have landed so I think I just have to forgive them anyway even though I still feel this tension.
这
The
三个特质听起来会很玄乎，我会逐一解释。
three qualities are going to sound esoteric and I will break them down.
临在，即能够留在现场的能力。
Presence, the ability to stay in the room.
共情，即能够感受现场氛围的能力。
Empathy, the ability to feel the room.
协调，即能够与现场节奏同步的能力。
Attunement, the ability to move with the room.
所以临在意味着，你过来对我说：嘿，我真的很不喜欢你昨晚跟我说话的方式。
So presence is you come at me and you say, hey I really didn't like the way you talked to me last night.
而我不会陷入自责。
And I don't go into blaming myself.
我不会陷入这样的想法：天啊。
I don't go into some story about like, oh my god.
我竟然做了这种事。
I can't believe I did that.
我真是个混蛋。
Oh, I'm such a jerk.
这是我做过的最糟糕的事。
That's the worst thing I've ever done.
我也不怪你。
I also don't go into blaming you.
你太敏感了。
You're so sensitive.
你就像三天前那样跟我说话。
You talked to me like that like three nights ago.
你为什么因为那件事生我的气？
What are you why are you getting mad at me about that?
对吧？
Right?
我们不在过去。
We're not in the past.
我们不会去想，比如三天前发生了什么，或者一年前发生了什么，也不会去担忧未来的各种假设，比如现在我永远无法再跟你说话、做回自己了。
We're not being like, but this happened three nights ago or this happened a year ago or we're not thinking about all the future projections of what so now I'm never going to be able to talk to you and just be me again.
我们真的能够只是去接纳伴侣对我们所说的话。
We're literally able to just be with what our partner says to us.
当我们能做到这一点，当我们能够全然专注地倾听伴侣的话，不陷入过去或未来，也不陷入自己的崩溃、羞耻、自大或向外指责时，下一步就是共情，去感受当下的氛围。
When we're able to do that, when we're able to just listen to what our partner says, with full presence when we're not in the future or past and when we're not in our own kind of collapse and shame or grandiosity and outward blame, the next move is empathy to feel the room.
在我这一边，我能做些什么，才能从直觉上真正理解你的世界是什么样子？
What can I do on my side of the street in order to understand on a visceral level what it's like in your world?
真的。
Truly.
这意味着要提出开放性的问题。
That means asking open ended questions.
这意味着要承认：嗯，我的经历肯定会完全不同。
That means being like, okay, my experience would have been totally different.
我根本不会因为这件事生气。
I never would have gotten upset about this.
但你却因此感到沮丧。
But here you are getting upset.
好的。
Okay.
这很奇怪。
That's weird.
这不会是我。
This this wouldn't be me.
所以你不必同意他们。
So you don't have to agree with them.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
但你的角色是说：好吧。
But your role is to be like, okay.
如果我是你，就像那边一个我永远不会那样行为的外星物种。
If I were you, kind of an alien species over there who I don't I would never behave that way.
所以这很奇怪，不过顺便说一下，我觉得我非常了解你。
So it's strange even though, by the way, I think I know you so well.
所以我现在问这些问题，是为了让自己进入一种状态，天啊。
So I so I'm asking questions to start to get me into a space of being like, oh my god.
如果我有那种感觉，就像你说的：听着，我感觉你昨晚对我特别冷淡。
If I felt like that, like, you're saying, listen, I I feel like you were really short with me last night.
我感觉到你眼神里有一种东西，让我觉得我根本不知道自己哪里做错了，但好像你的心已经离开了。
I felt like there was this look in your eye that just made me feel like I don't even know what I'm doing wrong, but it's like your heart just left.
这让我想起前男友，他总是对我大喊大叫，而我不知道该怎么应对。
It reminded me of an ex who would yell at me all the time and I don't know what to do about that.
而你站在另一方。
And you're on the other side.
如果你心里没有想：我干嘛这么敏感？
And if you're not saying to yourself why the fuck are you so sensitive?
为什么这件事这么重要？
Like why does this matter?
我现在就想上床睡觉。
I wanna go to bed right now.
或者天啊，我简直不敢相信我这么糟糕。
Or oh my god I can't believe I'm such a terrible person.
我简直不敢相信我做了那种事。
I can't believe I did that.
或者凭什么？
Or what right?
所以你真的能做到这样，好吧。
So you're literally able to be like okay.
哇哦。
Woah.
如果我前任那样对我，这样跟我说话，我也会这样。
Well if I had an ex like that who did that I can talk to me like that.
或者根据你所说的，如果我的眼睛确实是那样眯着，我能理解你为什么会因此受伤。
Or if maybe based on what you're saying like my eyes squint in that way, I can get why you would be hurt by that.
不是因为我坏或错了，也不是因为你坏或错了。
Not because I'm bad or wrong and not because you're bad or wrong.
突然间，我可能会在身体上感受到这种情绪共鸣，或者从认知上理解它，这就是认知共情。
And all of the sudden I might feel it in my body that's emotional empathy or I might cognitively understand it that's cognitive empathy.
我好像明白了。
I'm like getting it.
我正在理解你的世界，不是因为那是我的世界，我也不是试图把它变成我的世界。
I'm getting your world not because it's my world and I'm not trying to make it my world.
我并不是在试图同意你。
I'm not trying to agree with you.
我正在努力把自己放进你的鞋子里。
I'm trying to put myself, I'm trying to put my little feet in your shoes.
我试着把一双七号的鞋，硬塞进九号的脚里。
I'm trying to take a size seven and make them fit a size nine.
我觉得这很难。
I'm like and so it's hard.
就像鞋子不合脚一样。
It's like a weird fit.
这就像是我觉得鞋子有点不合脚。
It's kinda like I feel a little gap in the fit.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以我得做所有这些事。
And so I'm needing to do everything.
我也许可以在这里加点衬垫，让鞋子合脚一些。
I can maybe put a little padding here, right, to make them fit.
但这并不是因为我同意这些鞋本来就是我的。
But it's not because I agree those aren't my shoes.
对吧？
Right.
这是因为我在乎你。
It's because I care about you.
你对我很重要。
You're important to me.
所以我希望尽我所能，做到最好。
And so I want to do whatever I can to be like, okay.
所以，我理解你为什么觉得这对你来说很难。
So, yeah, I get why you're saying that that would be hard for you.
这对我来说很有道理。
That makes sense to me.
但不是那句‘这很有道理’让我觉得有道理。
But not the saying that makes sense to me.
这一点我们都知道。
Which we all know.
我们每个人都可能以某种方式听过一句话，顺便说一句，那是一句很棒的话。
We've all probably heard in one modality or another a line that is and by the way that's a great line.
我只是想说，‘这对我来说很有道理’是一句很棒的话。
Just want to say that makes sense to me is a great line.
但当你没有真正以一种切身感受的方式说出它时，比如我真的懂了。
But when you're not actually saying it in an embodied way where you feel it like I really get that.
对。
Right.
我真真切切地理解这一点。
I really really get that.
那么，要达到共鸣——即与现场氛围同步的能力——将会非常困难，事实上几乎不可能。
Then it's gonna be really hard, in fact pretty impossible, to move to attunement which is the ability to move with the room.
好的。
Okay.
我懂你的感受。
So I feel you.
我理解你。
I understand you.
我明白你的意思。
I'm getting you.
现在我可以了，就像是把内在的东西转化为外在的表达。
And now I can it's like I'm taking the internal and I'm moving it into the external.
你想抱一下吗？
Do you want a hug?
我完全能理解，你知道我要做什么吗？
I can totally see how that you know what I'm gonna do?
下次当我感觉到那种语气要出现时，我答应你，我会试着深呼吸几次。
Next time I feel that kind of tone coming on, I'm gonna I promise I'm gonna try and take a few deep breaths.
我不确定每次都能做对，但我真的会努力更多地留意那种语气何时出现，因为我知道它在你身上引发的是什么。
And I don't know if I'm gonna get it right all the time but I'm really gonna try and put more energy into knowing when that tone comes out because I know what it brings up in you.
所以共情就是不离开我。
So attunement is the ability to not leave me.
我不是在这儿一味迎合。
I'm not over here placating.
对。
Right.
我不是完全置身事外，还说：天啊，你什么都对。
I'm not over here leaving me completely and being like, my god, you're right about everything.
而且我也没说你所有事情都错了。
And I'm also not saying you're wrong about everything either.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我有能力既保持自我，又能进入你的世界，然后采取行动。
I have the ability to stay with me and also come into your world and then take action.
把这一点外化出来。
Externalize that.
那就是共情。
That's that's attunement.
所以我们现在是在做
So are we doing
这三件事是一起进行的，还是说它们是学习如何
all these three things at once, or are these, like, different phases of like learning how
与伴侣相处的不同阶段？
to work with our partner?
我的意思是，我们中有些人可能在某一方面更擅长。
I mean, probably some of us are better at one than the other.
我们需要这三者。
We need all three.
好的。
Okay.
如果你不是总统，要产生共情会非常困难。
If you're not president, it's gonna be really hard to have empathy.
如果你没有共情，就不可能做到共鸣。
If you don't have empathy, you're gonna it's gonna be impossible to attune.
好的。
Okay.
它们是按顺序进行的。
They're of They're sequential.
说实话，我试过用另一种方式，因为如果这个缩写反过来，我就可以说它叫EAP。
Honestly, I tried to do them a different way because if the acronym were reversed, I could say, It's called EAP.
然后我想了想，这行不通，所以我们现在没有一个好记的缩写。
And then I was like, That just doesn't work because So here we are without a good acronym.
P。
P.
P。
P.
我知道。
I know.
我也这么想。
I thought that too.
我觉得这根本不够好。
I'm like, that's just not it's just not that good.
但这些很难做到，却是必要的要素，对吧。
But those are hard to do, but they are the necessary ingredients Right.
为了让我们能够学习。
For us to learn.
所以，无论我们是修复、讨好、沉默、疏远，还是大声表达，这些都是我们需要在自己这一侧努力改进的方面，以便在伴侣向我们传达困难情绪时，能够与他们保持连接。
So whether we fix, whether we fawn, whether we silence, whether we distance, whether we get loud, These are the things that we're gonna need to work on on our side of the street so that we can have the ability to stay with our partner when they're bringing us something difficult.
是的。
Yeah.
这需要练习。
And this is going to take practice.
对。
Yeah.
你不可能一开始就做到。
You can't do this out of the gate.
这将是不可能的。
It will be impossible.
你会搞砸的。
And you're going to mess up.
你肯定不会在某些时刻保持专注。
And you're definitely not gonna be present for some of it.
然后你会说：哎呀，糟了。
And then you're gonna be like, oh, shoot.
我忘了那一点。
I forgot that one.
这不过是游戏的规则罢了。
Shouldn't like, it's just the name of the game.
是的。
Yeah.
有一件事我想说，我觉得我们之前把重点给埋没了。
One thing I wanna I feel like we kinda buried the lead with this.
MDMA能增强人们深入这一过程的能力吗？
Does MDMA enhance people's ability to be able to kind of sink into this process?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我之所以觉得MDMA是一种非常有趣的分子来研究，是因为对我们许多人，尤其是那些在创伤中长大的人来说，我们从未有过被真正理解的体验。
I mean listen part of why I find MDMA such an interesting molecule to research is because for many of us, especially those of us who grew up with trauma, we have never had the experience of being attuned to.
我们中的一些人很难感受到共情。
Or some of us have a really hard time accessing empathy.
我们中的一些人思绪纷乱，根本无法保持专注。
Some of us have a monkey mind that cannot stay present to save our lives.
对。
Right.
使用MDMA后，你的杏仁核——恐惧反应——开始平静下来。
With MDMA, your amygdala, the fear response starts to quiet.
好的。
Okay.
而被释放出来的，你获得更多的是这些让你感觉良好的化学物质。
And what's being dumped, what you're getting more of are all these feel good chemicals.
血清素、催产素、多巴胺。
Serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine.
因此你会感受到一种内心敞开的温暖，防备也会随之放下。
So that you feel like a kind of heart opened warmth and your guard can go down.
我有个朋友是这样描述的，我觉得这真是个绝佳的比喻。
I had a friend describe it this way and I think it's a really great way to describe it.
如果你平时的反应就像雨水倾盆而下，那么有了MDMA，就好像你头上有了屋顶。
It's like if your reaction feels like rain just dumping down on you, with MBMA, it's like you have a roof on your head.
所以雨水虽然还是落在屋顶上。
So the rain is the rain comes down on the roof.
你能感觉到它。
You can feel it.
你知道它在那里，但并没有淋得你浑身湿透。
It's like, you know, it's there, but you're not it's not all over you.
它不会像雨水直接浇在你身上那样。
It's not like raining down on you.
所以你有了更多的空间来回应。
So you have more space to react.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，它被称为爱之药，因为共情更容易被唤起，而从这一点出发，共鸣也变得更容易实现。
I mean, it's called the love drug because empathy is what is so much easier to access and from that point attunement is so much easier to access.
因此，它为伴侣们留下了一种印记。
So it gives couples an imprint.
听好了，MDMA已被用于多种研究，创伤后应激障碍是最常见的之一，也是最有可能在完成审批后获得FDA批准的用途。
Listen MDMA has been studied for many things PTSD is one of the most common and it's what will likely get FDA approved once it goes through the finish line there.
但我实际上认为，伴侣关系才是MDMA最理想的应用场景。
But I actually believe that couples is the best use case for MDMA.
你们用的是微剂量，还是和人们娱乐性使用时的剂量一样？
And are you using, like, a microdose compared to when people are recreationally using it, or is it
一样的？
the same?
不。
No.
所以MDMA是一种不同于裸盖菇素的化合物，对吧。
So MDMA is one of those compounds unlike something like psilocybin Right.
而裸盖菇素，你完全可以微剂量使用。
Where psilocybin, you could absolutely microdose.
MDMA并不适合微剂量使用。
MDMA is not meant to be microdose.
如果你摄入的剂量太低，就会出现它那种兴奋型效果。
If you take too low of a dose, then you get the kind of speedy effects of it.
所以你的心跳会加快，可能会有点焦虑。
So your heart races, you can get a little bit of anxiety.
因此，你必须达到一个最低剂量阈值，才能感受到MDMA的温暖效应。
So you have to kind of get over a minimum threshold in order to feel the warming effects of MDMA.
所以至少根据我的了解，它并不是一种
So it's not something that, at least from my knowledge,
是被微剂量使用的。
is microdosed.
它在实际中是如何使用的？
And how is it functionally used?
比如，你们只是每人吃一片药，然后走进治疗室吗？
Like, are you just, like, each taking a pill and then walking into therapy?
你知道的，听我说。
You know, listen.
MDMA目前是非法的。
MDMA is illegal right now.
所以我们对人们如何使用它了解得不多。
So it's we we don't know a lot of how people are using it.
但目前，我正在与哥伦比亚大学和MAPS合作开展一项定性研究。
But but right now, I'm doing a qualitative research study with Columbia University and MAPS.
我们实际上正在调查地下领域的实践者，其中一些人早在MDMA被列为非法之前就开始协助进行MDMA伴侣体验了。
And we are actually surveying practitioners in the underground, some of whom have been facilitating MDMA couples experience since before MDMA became illegal.
所以
So
那是什么时候？
that's When was that?
在八十年代。
In the eighties.
明白了。
Got it.
所以那已经是很多很多年了。
And so that's a that's many, many years.
对吧？
Right?
所以它曾经是合法的，当时刚开始被用于治疗。
So it was legal at one point and it was just starting to be used therapeutically.
然后派对文化开始使用它，接着警方关注到了，于是还没等我们反应过来，它就成了一级管制药物。
And then the party scene got ahold of it and then the police got interested in it and then before we know it now it's a schedule one drug.
因此，过去三十年左右，MAPS 一直负责开展临床试验，以推动其合法化。
And so MAPS has been responsible for doing the clinical trials to help get it legalized for the past thirty ish years.
哇。
Wow.
是的，这是一条非常漫长的路，我们还没有到达终点。
Yeah, so it's been a really long road and we're still not there.
因此，我们在这项研究中试图做的是采访地下伴侣治疗师，了解他们的治疗方案、用药方式以及剂量如何控制。
So what we're trying to do with this study is we are interviewing underground couples practitioners and understanding what are their protocols, medicine, how do they do dosing.
但 MAPS 的治疗方案是公开的，很多人会使用这些方案。
But the MAPS protocols are online and a lot of people use those.
对吧？
Right?
许多伴侣如果自己有渠道，会自行使用 MDMA。
Many couples take MDMA on their own if they want, if they have access to it.
但事实是，它仍是非法的，因此很多人无法获得，这就是为什么这些研究如此重要。
But the truth is it's illegal and so a lot of people don't have access to it which is why the studies are important.
在任何发达国家或西方国家是合法的吗？
Is it legal in any first world western countries?
不是。
No.
没有哪个国家是的。
Not that
我知道的范围内没有。
I know of.
等到这个节目播出时，我知道已经有人在推动这件事了。
And by the time this airs, I know people are working on it.
这很复杂，因为关于MDMA有很多迷思需要澄清。
And it's tricky because there's a lot of myths to debunk about MDMA.
2002年，约翰斯·霍普金斯大学进行了一项研究，发现至今人们仍普遍误以为MDMA会在大脑里‘打洞’，这是最常见的误解。
In 2002 Johns Hopkins ran a study where it's the it's the most common kind of misconception about MDMA that still people believe today, which is it gives your brain holes.
也就是说，服用MDMA会让大脑出现‘洞’。
Like, you get holes in your brain from from taking it.
我听说过这个。
I've heard that.
是的。
Yes.
这项研究一出来，媒体就疯狂报道了。
This study was, I mean, the media just ate it up.
好吧。
Okay.
但后来这项研究始终无法被复现。
But then they the study was never able to be replicated.
所以我认为是在2003年或2004年，他们发现那些药瓶标签贴错了，给动物服用的其实是甲基苯丙胺。
So I think it was in 2003 or 2004, they realized that the the bottles were mislabeled, and they were giving the animals methamphetamine.
天哪。
Oh my god.
不是MDMA。
Not MDMA.
所以这项研究被撤回了，而它出自约翰斯·霍普金斯大学。
So the study was retracted and this came out of Johns Hopkins.
当然，这是一个非常有声望、备受尊敬的学术机构。
Of course, there's such a credit mean, well respected academic institute.
所以自然，人们会相信来自约翰斯·霍普金斯大学的东西。
So of course, you're gonna believe something that comes out of Johns Hopkins.
但确实，这项研究已经被驳斥了，但损害已经造成了。
But, yeah, the it was debunked, but the the damage had already really been done.
因此，直到现在人们仍相信它会在大脑里打洞。
And so still people believe it puts holes in your brain.
哇。
Wow.
所以，以我这个非专业人士的有限知识来看，如果你服用的东西会向大脑大量释放血清素、多巴胺、催产素等物质，会不会有反弹效应？
So, like, just from my very limited non clinician knowledge, if you're taking something that is dumping serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, all this stuff into your brain, do you have a comedown?
因为我觉得，这类东西就像俗话说的，越高越跌。
Because I always feel like with stuff like that, it's like what goes up must come down.
之后你会不会感到低落？
Do you have, like, a dip afterwards?
有些人会。
Some people do.
有些人不会。
Some people don't.
好的。
Okay.
这种低落很常见。
The dip is common.
好的。
Okay.
正是因为你说的，大量释放之后，你就耗竭了。
Because of exactly to your point, all this release and now you're depleted.
对。
Right.
顺便说一下，为了法律目的，我并不提倡使用非法药物。
And by the way, I just wanna say for legal purposes, I'm not advocating the use of an illegal drug.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
所以这纯粹是为了获取知识。
So this is purely for knowledge.
所以我把那种低谷视为旅程的一部分。
So I've come to look at that low as part of the journey.
对于迷幻蘑菇、死藤水或其他传统致幻剂，很多人在某个时刻都会预期一种艰难的体验，比如那种强烈的感觉。
With things like psilocybin or ayahuasca or other traditional psychedelics, a lot of people expect kind of a rough experience at some moment, like that intensity.
而使用MDMA时，别在一开始就这么做。
And with MDMA, don't get it at the beginning.
对很多人来说，你会感受到那种美好的体验。
You get that beautiful for a lot of people.
顺便说一下，当你以娱乐方式使用时，它可能感觉像一种完全不同的物质，而当你用于治疗时则不然。
Using it recreationally, by the way, it can feel like a totally different compound when you're using therapeutically.
哦，原来如此。
Oh okay.
所以，如果你曾经在派对中使用过它，而在治疗环境中使用时，感觉可能会完全不同，尤其是当你在处理创伤时。
So if you have partied with it using it in a therapeutic setting it can feel completely different especially if you're working through trauma.
它可能不会让你感到如此打开心扉。
It may not feel so heart opening.
你的意思是，它并不是让你无法感受。
It's like you know it's not like it stops you from feeling.
对。
Right.
事实上，它反而能让你接触到更多的情感。
In fact it can allow you to access many more feelings.
但不管怎样，我跑题了。
But anyway I digress.
所以我实际上把这种低落视为过程的一部分，因为我们很多人都有保护机制，会不惜一切代价避免感受这种糟糕的情绪。
So I actually look at that low as part of the process because a lot of us have protective mechanisms that will do anything but allow us to feel that bad.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们会让自己忙个不停，会麻痹自己，但当我们缺乏资源时
And we will busy ourselves, we will numb ourselves, but when we don't have the resourcing
嗯。
Mhmm.
在那一刻无法让自己感觉好起来，除了感受之外还能做什么呢？
To make ourselves feel better in that moment, what is there to do but feel?
对。
Right.
所以我实际上把它看作过程的一部分，好的。
So I actually look at it as part of the process Okay.
而且不是那种仅仅因为有一天嗨了就要支付的税。
And not not like a tax you pay just for getting high one day.
在你的想法里，关于这一点最后一个问题，根据你正在进行的研究，这种做法更可能用于类似疗养营的环境吗？
And in your mind, last question about this, from what you are kind of devising with the research that you're doing, is it something that would be used more in, like, a retreat type environment?
还是说，就像我们每两周去一次婚姻咨询一样？
Or would it be, like, in a similar way of, well, we go to couples therapy every other week.
我们每次治疗都用MDMA？
We're doing MDMA for that session?
你不想那么频繁地使用MDMA，因为它会消耗你的能量。
Well, you don't wanna use MDMA that often because it does deplete you.
我的意思是，是的，你也不想那么频繁地使用它。
I mean, yeah, you wouldn't wanna be using it that often.
在MAPS的协议中，我想你知道吗？
In the MAPS protocol, I think they you know what?
我不想在这里说错话。
I don't wanna misspeak here.
但我想说，他们会在两次疗程之间间隔一个月，不过我可能记错了。
But I wanna say they wait a month in between sessions, but there's there's a chance I'm getting that wrong.
好的。
Okay.
无论如何，我建议人们不要每月使用超过一次。
Anyway, I I recommend people don't use it, you know, more than month once monthly.
好的。
Okay.
但你当然可以在办公室里和治疗师进行一次疗程。
But you could certainly do a session with your therapist that's in the office.
这是一种非常适合交谈的物质，这就是它在治疗中如此有效的原因。
It's a good compound to talk That's why it's such a great compound for therapeutic use.
因为你可以不停地谈、不停地谈、不停地谈。
Because you can talk and talk and talk and talk.
但我发现，我们当然也可以自己进行无引导的疗程。
But I find that we can do unguided sessions, of course, on our own.
这其中的难点在于，治疗师或引导者、实践者的角色还承担着责任和整合的作用。
The tricky part about that is that the therapist or the facilitator, the practitioner role also is there for accountability and integration.
而MDMA可能会让人难以记住所有事情。
And MDMA can be hard to remember everything on.
它确实具有这种特性。
It does have that quality.
因此，如果有引导者在场，他们通常会做笔记或帮助你回忆。
And so if you have a facilitator there, they're often taking notes or helping you remember.
同时，他们也会帮助你进行整合。
And then they're also helping you integrate.
他们还会帮助你做准备。
And they're helping you prep too.
我认为，准备和整合是获得持久体验最重要的部分。
I think prep and integration are some of the most important pieces to having lasting experiences.
很多人来找我做准备和整合，我无法告诉你有多少人曾在我这里经历过的MDMA巅峰体验是多么美妙。
Cannot tell you a lot people come to me for prep and integration and I can't tell you how many people have come to me and have had the most amazing peak experience on MDMA.
但几个月内，他们又回到了原点，因为他们没有进行整合。
But then within a few months, they're back to baseline because they haven't integrated.
这最终只是变成了另一次高峰体验。
It just ends up being another peak experience.
所以对我来说，MDMA首先并不是一种万能药。
So to me, MDMA, first of all, I don't think it's a panacea.
我不认为每个人都应该使用它。
I don't think everybody should use it.
我认为它有很多方式可能实际上是有害的。
I think there are a lot of ways it's it can be it can actually be detrimental.
比如，如果你处于一个虐待或操控的循环中使用MDMA，这可能会让你更难看清这段关系的本质，从而非常危险。
Like, if you are in an abusive or manipulative cycle using MDMA, it could just be really dangerous for the dynamic for you to actually see the dynamic clearly.
是的。
Mhmm.
但对于一些人来说，我们只是需要重新体验一次与他人连接的感觉，因为已经太久没有这种连接了。
But for some of us who just need a an imprint of what it's like to feel connected again, like it's just been so long since you've been able to connect.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。