人工智能如何堵塞法庭

好吧。

Okay.

你看。

Look.

我们知道你还没订阅我们全新的指标通讯，不过没关系。

We know you haven't signed up for our brand new Indicator newsletter yet, but it's fine.

没关系。

It's fine.

这没什么大不了的。

It's not a big deal.

维托，听起来这事对你来说挺重要的。

Vito, sounds like it is a big deal to you.

是的。

Yeah.

直接看节目笔记就能注册了。

Just just just look at the show notes to sign up.

好吧？

Alright?

每周五早上发布。

It comes out every Friday morning.

美国国家公共电台。

NPR.

和许多律师一样，劳拉·麦克莱恩有点抵触新技术。

Like many attorneys, Laura McClain is a bit of a Luddite.

我还在用纸质档案。

I keep paper files.

我有点守旧，虽然我其实。

I'm kind of old fashioned even though I yeah.

也没那么老。

Not that old.

对吧？

Right?

今年早些时候，劳拉参加了一场庭审。

And Laura was at this trial earlier this year.

她专攻家事法，你知道的，离婚、抚养权纠纷，都是挺重的案子。

She does family law, you know, divorces, custody disputes, heavy stuff.

对方是一位没有请律师、自己出庭的女性。

On the opposing side was a woman without an attorney representing herself.

所以这在业内叫作‘自行辩护’。

So going pro se as it's called in the biz.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一起涉及财务记录、金额高达数千美元的离婚案，情况非常不妙。

And it was a divorce case involving finance records and thousands of dollars at issue, and it's going really badly.

对方那位女士老是忘了提出异议。

The woman on the other side is forgetting to object to things.

她给法院提交的文件副本数量都不对。

She doesn't have the right number of copies of documents for the court.

她越来越慌乱，事情也一团糟。

She's getting flustered, and things are just generally falling apart.

到了审判的第二天，她几乎说不出话来。

By the second day of the trial, she can hardly speak.

简直是一场灾难。

It was an absolute disaster.

她连证据都没法提交，因为她完全依赖那份提纲。

She wasn't even able to present evidence just because she had relied so heavily on this outline.

有一次，劳拉主动帮她从一堆文件里找出了提纲里的材料，直接交给法官，好让庭审能继续下去。

At one point, Laura offered to help her find her documents from her outline and give it to the judge just to move the trial along.

她翻遍了整整几箱零散的文件。

She'd been rifling through boxes and boxes of loose documents.

就在劳拉帮忙的时候，她无意中瞥见了那名女子的提纲——那是她赢下官司的全部计划。

And then as Laura is helping, she catches a glimpse of the woman's outline, her blueprint for winning the case.

全是人工智能生成的。

It's all AI generated.

连聊天机器人的提示语都还留在里面。

Even the chatbot prompts were still in there.

最后，她输掉了官司。

And in the end, she lost the case.

这是《Planet Money》的《The Indicator》。

This is The Indicator from Planet Money.

我是维托·埃曼努埃尔。

I'm Vito Emmanuel.

我是达里安·伍兹。

And I'm Darian Woods.

人工智能正在改变法律体系。

AI is transforming the legal system.

今天，我们要聊聊，让普通人不用律师也能轻松起诉，背后有哪些更广泛的代价。

And today, we're gonna talk about the wider costs of making it much easier to file a case by yourself without a lawyer.

一方面，那些请不起律师的人，至少有个法律助手在身边。

On the one hand, people who can't afford lawyers have a legal coach in their corner.

但另一方面，这教练并不怎么样，还把法院的系统给堵住了。

On the other hand, it's not a very good coach, and it's clogging up the cords.

本节目由TED出品的《工作生活》播客赞助播出，全新主持人莫莉·格雷厄姆正式上线。

This message comes from Work Life, a podcast from Ted announcing a brand new host, Molly Graham.

莫莉深入顶尖企业的内部，挖掘那些真正管用的经验，帮你应对计划之外的各种突发状况。

Molly uncovers valuable insights from people on the inside of highly successful companies to help you find out what actually works when nothing goes as planned.

快来收听莫莉·格雷厄姆主持的《工作生活》。

Listen to work life with Molly Graham.

本节目由Wise应用赞助播出，专为全球跨境人士打造的理财工具。

This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

只需轻点几下，就能轻松转账、消费和收款，支持多达40种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

选择Wise。

Get wise.

立即下载Wise应用，或访问wise.com。

Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

条款细则适用。

Ts and cs apply.

约书亚·莱维曾经认为，人工智能对法律体系的影响不会太大。

Joshua Levy used to think AI wouldn't have that much of an effect on the legal system.

但他的朋友阿南德·沙阿却觉得根本不可能。

But his friend Anand Shah thought no way.

很明显，人工智能迟早会渗透到各个领域。

Clearly AI was gonna touch everything.

约书亚和阿南德分别是南加州大学和麻省理工学院的博士生。

Joshua and Anand are PhD students at the University of Southern California and MIT respectively.

于是他们决定用研究来解决这场争论。

So they decided to settle their debate with research.

用数据来验证他们的想法。

Putting numbers to their reckons.

这太棒了。

I love it.

他们从联邦法院收集了大量关于当事人自诉案件的数据，作为衡量这一现象的一种方式。

And they pulled down a bunch of data from the federal courts on pro se court filings as one way to measure this.

我们看到这些 filing 数量的惊人变化时，全都惊得合不拢嘴。

And we just saw these really dramatic results in filing numbers and our jaws just kind of collectively dropped.

这下可让对方得意坏了。

That's on end relishing in his sweet victory.

自诉案件数量大幅上升。

Pro se cases are up, way up.

从2023年开始，就在ChatGPT发布前后，自诉案件的比例突然飙升。

Starting in 2023, right around the release of ChatGPT, the share of pro se cases jumped.

目前的数据只涵盖联邦法院，因为那里的信息更容易分析。

Now this is just for federal courts where the data is easy to analyze.

州和地方法院的情况我们还不清楚，但那里可能更明显。

We don't know about state and local courts, but it might be even more pronounced there.

现在还出现了一个情况，就是提交的诉讼在质量上有了变化。

And there's a thing that's happening with the quality of lawsuits being filed.

长期以来，打官司一直不容易。

Since pretty much forever, it has been hard to file a lawsuit.

光是知道该怎么做、该提交哪些文件、该提出哪些主张，就让人头疼了。

Just knowing what to do, what paperwork to file, what claims to bring, and so on.

所以只有少数人能坚持到底。

So only certain people followed through.

那些愿意克服所有障碍的人，往往觉得自己案子特别有把握，或者类似的情况。

The people that were willing to climb all the hurdles before felt in some sense that, you know, their cases were especially strong or something like that.

人们选择自己打官司，原因有很多。

People file pro se cases for a bunch of reasons.

有时候他们请不起律师。

Sometimes they can't afford an attorney.

有时候生活中出了严重问题，律师不愿意接，但他们还是想讨个说法。

Sometimes something has gone really wrong in their lives, an attorney won't represent them, and they just want to have their day in court.

人工智能正在降低这些人的维权门槛。

AI is lowering the barriers for all those people.

但有些类型的案件特别适合用人工智能处理。

But certain types of cases are especially AI friendly.

阿南德和约书亚把它们称为可模板化的案件。

Anand and Joshua call them templatable.

比如止赎案件或者住房纠纷。

These are things like foreclosure cases or housing cases.

在地方层面，还包括那些会进入小额诉讼法庭的争议。

At local levels, it would also be disputes that wind up in small claims courts.

法律问题相对明确的案件。

Cases with relatively straightforward legal questions.

法院官网上甚至可能直接提供这类案件的模板。

Things a court might literally have a template for on its website.

我们的博士生说，对于这类可模板化的案件，不仅提起的案件数量在增加，每个案件提交的文件数量也在上升。

And our PhD students said for templatable types of cases, they've seen not only a rise in the number of cases cases filed, but the number of documents filed in each case,

这当然意味着法院的工作量增加了。

which of course means more work for the courts.

法院积压案件的问题已经存在多年了，早在ChatGPT出现之前就是如此。

And backlogs in the courts have been a problem for years now, even before ChatGPT.

法官一天也还是只有二十四小时。

Judges still only have twenty four hours in a day.

打官司需要法庭、需要书记员，还需要各种配套人员，法院才能运转起来。

You need courtrooms, you need clerks, you need all these things to make a court really work.

法院服务的供给并没有真正增加。

The supply of court services is not really changing.

并不是说自己打官司的人用了AI建议后胜诉率就提高了。

Not that people who go pro se are winning any more often with AI advice.

这是Joshua说的。

Here's Joshua.

普通人要想告政府或者大公司，依然极其困难。

Still extraordinarily hard for a pro se litigant to bring a case against the government or against a private company.

自行应诉的当事人获得明确胜诉的比例，基本上还是零。

The share of unambiguous wins for pro se litigants is still essentially zero.

你还记得劳拉讲的那个自行应诉者的例子吗？

Remember Laura's story about the pro se litigant?

提起诉讼只是第一步。

Filing a lawsuit is just step one.

这一步固然重要，但后面的步骤只会越来越难，比如提交证据，亲自在法庭上陈述你的案情。

It's a big step, but the steps really just get bigger from there, like presenting evidence, making the case with your voice out loud in the courtroom.

过去，法官们都会尽力给予自行应诉者更多理解。

Historically, judges try really hard

因为他们的胜算实在太小了。

to be charitable to pro se litigants because the odds are so long.

但最近，有些当事人因为用了AI，反而被处以数千美元的罚款。

But recently, some of

这些罚款都是AI给惹出来的。

the litigants have been getting hit with thousands of dollars of penalties thanks to AI.

是的。

Yeah.

有一位自诉人被命令支付超过六万美元的费用，部分原因是他引用了一堆由AI生成的虚假案例。

One pro se was ordered to pay over $60,000 in fees in part because he cited a bunch of bogus AI generated cases.

对。

Right.

所以，自诉人使用AI提起的诉讼开始让法院的案件积压了。

So pro se AI lawsuits are starting to clog up court dockets.

提起的案件变多了，但这些人的表现并不比AI出现前的自诉人好多少。

There are more cases filed, and the people filing them aren't doing much better than pro se litigants before AI.

有些人被罚款了，这些就是一些负面后果。

Some are getting fined, so those are some of the downsides.

但还有一种观点，是支持AI提供帮助的。

But there is this other argument, the case for AI help.

按照这种看法，AI帮助了那些被法律体系排除在外的人获得出庭的机会，解决了 Access 的问题。

By this view, AI is helping the people who are left out of the legal system have their day in court, addressing an access issue.

对。

Right.

咱们来认识一下萨蒂什·诺里。

So let's meet Satish Nouri.

这对法院来说是个机会，表明我们会做得更好。

This is an opportunity for the courts to say, we're gonna do better.

我们会解决这些问题。

We're gonna address these issues.

萨蒂什多年在纽约一家法律机构当律师，现在在纽约大学研究人工智能在法律中的应用。

Satish was an attorney at a legal organization in New York for many years and now researches AI applications in the law at NYU.

他记得在旧机构时，有多少人他帮不上忙。

And he remembers all the people he couldn't help at his old organization.

律师根本不够用。

There just weren't enough attorneys.

每年我都会见到成百上千面临驱逐的人，但我们却不得不拒绝其中一半的人。

I saw hundreds and hundreds of people every year who are facing eviction, and yet we're turning away half the people who are facing eviction.

所以我突然意识到，这其实是个收费问题，我们永远无法真正弥合这个司法鸿沟。

So it hit me that, like, this is it's a fee, and we're never gonna meaningfully bridge this justice gap.

AI或许不是完美的解决方案，但他认为，这可能是目前最有可能实现突破的机会。

AI might be an imperfect way to address this, but he says it's probably the best shot right now at doing so.

Satish提到，AI可以在提起诉讼前的大量法律事务上提供帮助。

Satish points to how AI can help out with all the legally things before filing

这些本该由律师协助处理的事，比如怎么给房东写催告信，但律师们每天时间根本不够用。

a lawsuit that attorneys could help answer, but don't have enough time in the day to right now, like how to write a demand letter to your landlord.

或者冬天暖气坏了，你不知道该怎么办，聊天机器人可以告诉你

Or if your heat goes out in the winter and you don't know what to do, a chatbot could tell you to

给市政府打电话，书面联系你的房东。

Call the city, contact your landlord in writing.

也许你应该联系邻居，联合起来组织起来。

Maybe you should contact your neighbors and organize your building.

还可以帮他们联系租客权益组织。

Maybe help them contact a tenant organizer.

但说到真正提起诉讼时，萨蒂什说，得彻底放开限制。

But when it comes to actually filing a lawsuit, Satish says open the floodgates.

任何人都应该能以最简单的方式提起诉讼。

Anyone and everyone should be able to file a lawsuit in the easiest way possible.

需求远远没有得到满足。

There's so much unmet need.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们应该让所有人都能提起诉讼。

So we should let everybody file.

他简直就是法律界的梅尔·罗宾斯。

He's like the legal version of Mel Robbins.

让他们——起诉吧。

Let them, parentheses, sue.

对。

Yeah.

AI时代的自助法律服务。

Self help for the AI legal age.

如果AI出错或编造内容，萨蒂什认为，法官应该对那些没有AI帮助就无法提起诉讼的自诉人更加宽容。

And if AI gets stuff wrong or makes stuff up, Satish says judges should take it even easier on people going pro se who wouldn't otherwise be able to file a lawsuit without AI help.

至于法院因这种情况而面临案件激增，萨蒂什说，这本来就是法院的职责。

And as for courts grappling with new case volume as the result of that, Satish says, well, that's like their job.

这就像一股不可阻挡的力量，撞上了法院这块坚不可摧的磐石。

This is a kind of irresistible force that's being met with an immovable object, the courts.

对吧？

Right?

这股力量就是所有有法律诉求却得不到帮助的美国人，它直接撞上了法院系统。

And the force is all the unmet needs of Americans who have legal claims, and it runs smack up against the courts.

但目前，法院似乎既没有资源应对大量案件，也不愿放松与AI相关的处罚标准。

Still, right now, the courts don't seem like they have the resources to handle a flood of cases nor do they seem like they're willing to lax AI related penalties.

积压案件越多，那些急需救济的人——比如申请针对施虐伴侣的保护令的人——就得等更久才能得到帮助。

And a bigger backlog means people who need immediate relief, like, say, who are asking for a protective order against an abusive partner might have to wait longer for that relief.

对。

Right.

现在这种情况，感觉就是资源过剩和不足之间的权衡。

This feels like there is a excess and deficiency trade off right now.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我们之前提到的家庭律师劳拉·麦克莱恩，现在正亲眼看着这一切发生。

And and Laura McLean, our family law attorney from earlier, she's watching this play out in real time right now.

她有一个客户，在抚养权案件中不断用AI聊天机器人质疑她的建议。

One client of hers kept second guessing her advice in a custody case with an AI chatbot.

最后，他决定自己当诉讼代理人，完全依赖AI，不再找劳拉。

Eventually, he decided to go pro se and use AI instead of Laura.

他输掉了抚养权。

He lost custody.

没错。

Yes.

他因为不听建议，结果失去了探视权。

He lost parenting time as a result because he wasn't willing to take advice.

劳拉说，在某些情况下，你最好还是找一位真正的真人律师。

In some cases, Laura says, you should probably just stick with a real flesh and blood attorney.

本集由库珀·卡茨·麦基制作，西娜·洛弗雷多负责录音制作。

This episode was produced by Cooper Katz McKim and engineered by Sina Lofredo.

内容核实由西耶拉·华雷斯完成。

It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez.

亚历克斯·戈德马克担任本集编辑，凯特·金卡农是节目的总编辑。

Alex Goldmark edited this episode, and Kate Kincannon is our show's editor.

《指标》是NPR制作的节目。

The Indicator is a production of NPR.

NPR的文化时事播客《这已经一分钟了》每集开头都会提三个问题。

Every episode of It's Been a Minute, NPR's What's Happening in Culture podcast starts by asking three questions.

谁？

Who?

怎么做到的？

How?

为什么是现在？

Why now?

如果文化圈在讨论，我们就来聊聊。

If the culture's asking it, we're talking about it.

在NPR，我们支持你保持好奇，尽情探索文化话题。

At NPR, we stand for your right to be curious and indulge your cultural curiosity.

在你常用的播客平台关注《It's Been a Minute》，我们会为你解析那些刷屏的热门话题。

Follow It's Been A Minute wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll break down the zeitgeisty topics that are filling your feed.