富人如何通过亏损来赚钱

NPR。

NPR.

几十年前，美国最富有的人在投资上的税率高达40%。

Decades ago, the richest Americans paid taxes as high as 40% on their investments.

也就是说，如果他们卖掉大量股票或者公司被收购，那笔收入的一大块都要交给政府。

That means if they sold a bunch of stock or their company got acquired, a good chunk of that payday would go to the government.

但现在，一些百万富翁和亿万富翁正在利用一个巨大的税收漏洞，这个漏洞大到可能让他们把税降到零。

But right now, some millionaires and billionaires are plowing their money through a tax loophole so big, it could allow them to slash their taxes to zero.

这里是《Planet Money》的《指标》节目。

This is the indicator from Planet Money.

我是Waylon Wong。

I'm Waylon Wong.

我是Adrian Ma。

And I'm Adrian Ma.

今天节目中，我们将邀请彭博社记者Loukia Gyftopoulou。

Today on the show, we'll be joined by Bloomberg reporter, Loukia Gyftopoulou.

她负责报道投资和财富管理行业。

She covers investing and the wealth management industry.

最近，她和同事们做了一系列报道，讲的是他们所说的这一代人的美国式大逃税。

And recently, she and her colleagues did a series of stories on what they call this generation's great American tax dodge.

休息之后，她会解释这个漏洞是怎么运作的，还会告诉我们背后的那个人——一个脾气火爆、爱砸电脑屏幕的金融奇才，他管理着全球最大的对冲基金，就在美国这里。

After the break, she explains how it works and tells us about the man behind it, a hot tempered computer screen punching financial whiz who runs the world's biggest hedge fund right here in The US.

这条消息来自Wise，一个在全球范围内管理资金的智能方式。

This message comes from Wise, the smart way to manage your money around the world.

使用Wise，你可以以中间市场汇率，在40多种货币之间进行发送、消费和接收。

With Wise, you can send, spend, and receive money in over 40 currencies at the mid market rate.

更多信息请访问wise.com。

Learn more at wise.com.

适用条款和条件。

Ts and Cs apply.

嘿。

Hey.

是我，彼得·西格尔，《等等，别告诉我》的主持人。

It's me, Peter Segal, host of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me.

现在是赏叶的季节，何不顺便来玩玩我们的每周新闻小测验呢？

It's leaf peeping season, so why not peep our weekly news quiz while you're at it?

我们有喜剧演员、名人，还有游戏，让你笑着了解本周新闻。你可以在给南瓜调味的时候听，或者随便你做什么的时候听。

We got comedians, celebrities, and games to help laugh about the week's news, and you can listen while you're spicing your pumpkins, whatever people do.

每周都可以在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听《等等，别告诉我》。

Listen every week to Wait Wait Don't Tell Me in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

对数据中心的反对跨越了党派界限，这在威斯康星州的政治中很少见。

Opposition to data centers cuts across party lines, which is rare in Wisconsin politics.

但谁有权决定是否建造数据中心呢？

But who has the power to decide whether a data center is built?

我们将在WUWM的《摇摆州联盟》播客中深入探讨数据中心的政治以及威斯康星州谁说了算，该播客是NPR网络的一部分。

We'll dig into the politics of data centers and who has power in Wisconsin on the swing state of the union podcast from WUWM, a part of the NPR network.

在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这个时代美国最大的逃税故事，要从一个叫克里夫·阿斯内斯的人说起。他59岁，光头，灰白胡子，胳膊上还有个美国队长的纹身。

The story of this era's great American tax dodge starts with a man named Cliff Asness, 59 years old with a bald head and gray beard and a Captain America tattoo on his arm.

克里夫九十年代在高盛工作，差不多同一时间也拿到了金融学博士学位。

Cliff worked at Goldman Sachs in the nineties and around that time also got a PhD in finance.

克里夫·阿斯穆斯是个非常张扬、个性十足的人物。

Cliff Asmus is a very big, bigger than life personality.

那是彭博社记者露基亚·吉夫托普卢。

That's Bloomberg reporter Loukia Gyftopoulou.

他嘛，

He's,

可以说是个疯狂的天才，他找到了一种方法，能帮富人把税单大幅削减，甚至可能减到极致。

let's say, a mad genius in a way who's found found this way to help rich people slash their tax bills potentially to the extreme.

又一个疯狂的天才。

Another mad genius.

很少有天才会被形容为稳重或者

There's very few geniuses that are described as stable or

是的。

Yes.

和他相处过很长时间的人都说，他是我见过的最聪明的人之一。

People who have spent a lot of time with him credit him as one of the smartest people I've ever met.

但同时，他的脾气也特别火爆。

At the same time, he's got a massively short fuse.

他会对人吼叫。

He shouts at people.

他自己也承认，在金融危机期间，他曾经砸穿电脑屏幕，可能之后也有过。

He's admitted that he's during the financial crisis, he was punching through computer screens, maybe afterwards as well.

我也不太清楚。

I don't know.

克里夫·阿斯内斯还特别喜欢在言语上攻击别人。

Cliff Asness also loves to throw verbal punches.

他出了名地会在公开场合侮辱其他金融圈的人，比如亿万富翁比尔·阿克曼。

He's known for publicly insulting fellow finance bros like billionaire Bill Ackman.

他还写了很多《华尔街日报》的专栏文章，其中一篇就是为他所谓的“勤劳致富者”辩护的。

And he's written a lot of Wall Street Journal op eds, including one where he defended what he called the working rich.

我觉得埃比尼泽·斯克鲁奇也算“勤劳致富者”的一员。

I think Ebenezer Scrooge was a member of the working rich class.

我觉得那也算。

I think that would count.

在高盛工作了一段时间后，克里夫就自己单干了。

After his stint at Goldman, Cliff struck out on his own.

他创立了一家对冲基金，叫AQR资本管理公司。

He set up a hedge fund called AQR Capital Management.

多年来，AQR一直是一家相当典型的对冲基金，从富人或养老基金那里拿钱，进行投资，然后想办法让钱生钱。

And for years, AQR was a pretty typical hedge fund, taking money from wealthy individuals or pension funds, investing it and trying to turn it into even more money.

但几年前，卢基亚说，他们来了个大转向。

But then a few years ago, Loukia says, they made a pivot.

他们转向了一种叫“税务意识投资”的东西，这具体是什么意思呢？

They shifted towards something called tax aware investing, which means what exactly?

我们帮人们减少他们的税单。

We help reach people slash their tax bills.

这就是税务意识投资的含义。

That's what tax aware investing means.

传统投资纯粹专注于增长资金池，而税务意识投资则专注于减少投资者欠山姆大叔的钱。

While traditional investing is focused purely on growing a pool of money, tax aware investing is focused on reducing how much an investor owes to Uncle Sam.

一个经典的策略叫做税务亏损收割。

One classic strategy for doing that is something called tax loss harvesting.

就是卖掉亏损的股票，用这些亏损来抵扣，从而减少税单。

That's when you sell off losing stocks and write off those losses to reduce your tax bill.

克里夫和他在AQR资本的团队把这个基本策略玩出了花，搞得极其复杂。

Cliff and his team at AQR Capital took this basic strategy and complexified the hell out of it.

他们开发了一种所谓的税务意识多空策略，听起来就像一堆术语堆砌。

They developed what's called a tax aware long short strategy, which sounds like total word salad.

基本上，这意味着他们创建复杂的投资组合，故意设计来产生亏损。

Basically, it means that they create complicated investment portfolios purposely engineered to generate losses.

他们持有成千上万个仓位，很多是做多，很多是做空。

They have thousands and thousands of positions, many long, many short.

他们借钱，然后制造亏损。

They borrow money and they create losses.

长期来看，这些策略应该也能帮你赚钱，但他们设计出的产品可以制造亏损，用来抵消你需要缴纳的任何税款。

Long term, these strategies are supposed to also make you money, but they've engineered a product that can create losses that can then offset any tax you have to pay.

为了说得更具体，这里有一个来自Loukia报道的例子。

To make that concrete, here's an example from Loukia's reporting.

在AQR Capital给潜在投资者做的一次演示中，他们解释了这种升级版税收损失收割策略是如何运作的。

In a presentation AQR Capital gave to potential investors, they explained how their souped up version of tax loss harvesting works.

他们说，如果你在我们这里投资1亿美元，未来十年会增长到3亿美元，这回报相当不错。

They said, if you invest $100,000,000 with us over the next ten years, it'll grow to $300,000,000 which is a pretty good return.

但还有更妙的一点。

But here's the icing on the cake.

他们说，在同一时期，该基金可能会产生6亿美元的亏损，你可以用这些亏损来抵消你在盈利投资上的税务负担。

They said over that same period, the fund could incur $600,000,000 in losses, losses which you can use to erase your tax liability on your winning investments.

让你的钱增值，同时大幅减少你的税单。

Grow your money and slash your tax bill.

这就是AQR所承诺的。

That is what AQR is promising.

谁不想这样呢？

Who doesn't wanna do that?

我是说，算我一个。

I mean, sign me up.

哦，等等。

Oh, wait.

我离买得起它的金额还差得远呢。

I don't have anywhere near the amount I would need to buy it.

算了。

Never mind.

几年前，AQR开始向至少有一百万美元可投资的客户提供这种策略。

Few years ago, AQR started offering this strategy to clients who had at least a million dollars to invest.

卢基亚说，这些策略一下子就火了起来。

And Loukia says they exploded in popularity.

这些账户里的资金从三十亿涨到了七百亿，现在可能还不止。

They went from having 3,000,000,000 in these accounts to having 70,000,000,000 and maybe more now.

他们后来就不再公布这些数字了。

They stopped publishing those numbers.

为了让你有个概念，在AQR之外，世界上一些最知名的对冲基金，筹集这么多钱花了几十年。

And to put this in perspective, outside AQR, some of the most prominent hedge funds in the world, it took them decades to raise this amount of money.

我们说的是三年内就达到七百亿。

We're talking about 70,000,000,000 in three years.

这速度，对了解这个行业的人来说，简直快得离谱。

This is, you know, outrageously fast for anyone who knows this world.

所以这就能看出，大家有多想找个办法，不用向政府交税。

So this kind of puts a bit in perspective how much people want something that will help them not pay their dues to the government.

卢基亚说，通过一些巧妙的会计操作，用这个策略的投资者甚至可能把资产传给继承人，而完全不用交税。

And with some creative accounting, Loukia says investors who use this strategy might even be able to pass on their assets to their heirs without ever incurring a tax bill.

所以，短短几年内，AQR资本就成长为全球最大的对冲基金。

And that's why in just a couple of years, AQR Capital has grown into the world's largest hedge fund.

现在，这种策略在富裕客户中需求极高，其他投资公司也开始推出类似的投资产品。

And now this strategy is in such high demand among wealthy clients that other investment firms have started offering their own similar investment products.

卢基亚说，这些基金如此受欢迎，反映出富人中存在一种反税情绪。

Loukia says it's a sign of an anti tax mood among the rich that these funds have become so popular.

但有趣的是，这发生在政治领域关于反亿万富翁税、吃富人等讨论日益升温的时期。

But it's also interesting that this is happening during a time when there's a growing anti billionaire tax the rich eat the rich conversation happening in politics.

加州、马里兰州和纽约等州的政策制定者正在辩论对富人征收新税。

Policymakers in states like California, Maryland, and New York are debating new taxes on the rich.

其他州如夏威夷、华盛顿和缅因州最近通过了百万富翁税。

Others like Hawaii, Washington, and Maine recently passed a millionaire's tax.

我想很多人听到这个会觉得不太对劲，也许这不违法，但这些百万富翁和亿万富翁找到了一个非常聪明的办法，至少绕过了税法的精神，通过一个漏洞把他们的钱都投进去。

I think a lot of people would hear this and feel like it doesn't seem right that maybe this is not illegal, but these, you know, millionaires and billionaires have found a very clever way to at least skirt the spirit of the tax law by finding a loophole and then, like, plowing all their money through it.

你觉得人们有这种感觉合理吗？

Do you think people would be justified in feeling that way?

如果你是一名学校老师，没有一百万美元去投资避税策略，而且你全额缴税，而一个更有钱的人却恰恰因为更有钱而能避税。

If you are a school teacher, you know, who doesn't have 1,000,000 to invest in a tax law strategy, and you pay your full amount in tax, and somebody with a lot more money can avoid it exactly because they have more money.

我觉得人们有理由对此感到疑惑。

I think it's fair it's fair for people to wonder why.

可能国税局也在疑惑为什么。

It's possible the IRS may be wondering why too.

最近，财政部官员对他们所谓的潜在滥用避税策略表示担忧，尽管他们没有点名批评AQR的做法。

Recently, Treasury Department officials expressed concern about what they called potentially abusive tax avoidance strategies, although they didn't specifically call out AQR's approach by name.

理论上，国会可以堵住这个漏洞。

And Congress could, in theory, close the loophole.

在这种不确定性下，一些与AQR合作的投资公司，比如嘉信理财和富达，已经暂停向新客户提供这类账户。

Amid this uncertainty, some investment firms like Charles Schwab and Fidelity that work with AQR have pulled back on offering this type of account to new clients.

尽管如此，卢基亚认为这不会消失。

And yet, Loukia thinks this isn't going away.

你知道，对冲基金就是会做对冲基金的事。

You know, hedge funds gonna hedge fund.

你知道，他们就是会继续为客户赚钱。

You know, they're they're just going to keep making money for the clients.

如果能提供这种服务，他们就会提供。

And if they can offer it to them, they will.

资产管理公司也会这么做。

And asset managers would do the same.

然后如果有人过来说这是违法的，那他们就得停下来。

And then if someone comes and says this is illegal, then they're gonna have to stop it.

而且可能有人要为此支付巨额罚款。

And somebody might have to pay a lot a lot of money for it in in penalties.

但在那之前，这种情况只会继续扩大。

But until then, it's just gonna keep growing.

事实上，一些资金管理公司已经开始向大众推销这种避税工具了。

And in fact, some money managers have even begun selling this tax avoidance tool to the masses.

你说的“大众”是什么意思？

What do you mean by masses?

你是说像我们这样的普通人吗？

You mean people like you and me?

就是说，报税的时候，TurboTax 网上怎么说，你就怎么付钱？

Mean, like, just pay whatever the TurboTax online thing tells you to pay at tax time?

嗯，他们不只是提供给超级富豪，可能连仅仅是很有钱的人也能用。

Well, they're they're not just offering it to the ultra wealthy, but maybe even the the merely very wealthy.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

他们终于能松口气了。

They finally are gonna catch a break.

Loukia 说这可能是个问题，因为这些基金不是没有风险的。

And Loukia says that could be a problem because these funds aren't without risks.

很多理财顾问都在向每一个客户推销这个，即使这些客户并不适合这种策略。

Many financial advisers are pitching this to every single client, even if the clients are not right for this strategy.

人们可能会被困在他们不理解的账户里，这可能会让他们损失更多，因为这些东西很复杂，而且你不能想退出就退出。

People can be trapped in accounts they do not understand, which might cost them a lot more because these things are complicated and you can't really get out of them whenever you want.

所以你是说，我不能像罗宾汉那样，靠税收损失来发财？

So you're saying I just can't, you know, Robin Hood my way to, tax loss riches?

那得等下一集了。

That'll be a follow-up episode.

如果你有创意的避税策略，听我说，别藏着掖着。

If you have a creative tax avoidance strategy, listen, don't keep it to yourself.

告诉我们吧。

Let us know.

发邮件到 Indicator at NPR dot org。

Indicator at NPR dot org.

这一集由 Cooper Katz McKim 制作，Jimmy Kealy 负责音频工程。

This episode was produced by Cooper Katz McKim and engineered by Jimmy Kealy.

事实核查由 Sierra Juarez 完成。

It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez.

Caken Cannon 是我们的编辑，这档节目由 NPR 制作。

Caken Cannon is our editor and the indicators of production of NPR.

这个选举季，你可以用Up First来精简你的新闻获取。

This election season, you can streamline your news intake with Up First.

我们的记者和编辑团队通宵工作，这样你每天早上都能在短小精悍的节目里听到三条必知新闻，每集十二到十四分钟，帮你节省时间，也让你保持清醒。

Our team of reporters and editors works overnight, so you can start every morning with three stories you need to know in short episodes, twelve, fourteen minutes long to save you time and your sanity.

在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方关注Up First。

Follow-up first on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周的Shortwave节目里，互联网上大家都在热议炎症。

This week on Shortwave, the Internet is obsessed with inflammation.

对，这确实是真的。

And yeah, it is true.

炎症几乎与身体里的每一种疾病都息息相关。

Inflammation is at the heart of nearly every disease in the body.

但是

But

它也是身体对危险的自然反应。

it's also the body's natural response to danger.

那么，到底谁需要真正担心这个问题呢？

So who really needs to be worried about it?

欢迎收听NPR的科学播客Shortwave，一探究竟。

Find out on Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.