三个争议：美国与巴西、塔可钟与责任、Waymo与诉讼律师

NPR。

NPR.

这是《星球金钱》的指标。

This is the indicator from Planet Money.

我是达里安·伍兹。

I'm Darian Woods.

我是阿德里安·马。

And I'm Adrian Ma.

今天加入我们的，是充满活力的维托·埃曼努埃尔。

And joining us today, the very vital, very vivacious Vito Emmanuel.

欢迎。

Welcome.

谢谢你们邀请我，勇敢的达里安和出色的阿德里安。

Thank you for having me, the daring Darian and amazing Adrian.

我喜欢你用‘yes’来收尾这个头韵。

I love how you yes to end that alliteration.

我是即兴表演培养出来的。

I'm a child of improv.

你来这儿，是因为我们要聊一些经济指标。

You're here because we're doing indicators

这些指标呢，

of This

今天呢，是我们分享新闻里最有趣的数字的日子。

is, of course, the day when we talk about our favorite numbers from the news.

在今天的节目里，

On today's show

我们来讲讲美国和巴西之间的贸易摩擦，其中一部分跟支付系统有关。

We've got The US's beef with Brazil, which is partly about a payment system.

一波环孢子虫病爆发后，随之而来的是大量诉讼。

The outbreak of litigation in the wake of an outbreak of cyclosporiasis.

谁会反对安全驾驶的汽车呢？

And who would oppose safe driving cars?

所有这些内容，广告之后继续。

All that after the break.

NPR广播网一直以来都依靠服务的听众支持，而不是股东或特殊利益集团，而是像你我这样相信新闻自由与独立的人。

The NPR network has always been powered by the people it serves, not by shareholders or special interests, but by people like you and me who believe in a free and independent press.

我们刚刚庆祝了国会取消公共媒体联邦拨款一周年。

We just passed the one year mark since congress eliminated federal funding for public media.

请在本月底之前前往 donate.npr.org 捐赠支持。

Please make your gift before the end of the month at donate.npr.org.

本周《NPR政治播客》将揭示政治广告支出中的一种模式。

This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, we uncover a pattern in political ad spending.

随着中期选举临近，共和党人正重新主打他们过去曾获胜的议题——移民。

As the midterms get closer, Republicans are leaning into an issue they've won on before, immigration.

我们会分析他们的宣传口径，以及民主党人如何以完全不同的方式回应这一议题。

We look at their message and also what Democrats are saying on the issue in a very different way.

立即收听《NPR政治播客》。

Listen now on the NPR politics podcast.

从电灯泡到互联网，人类历史一直由创新推动，而《Shortwave》正在探索明日科技将如何改变我们的未来。

From the light bulb to the Internet, human history has been driven by innovation, and Shortwave is exploring how the technology of tomorrow will transform our future.

你会坐飞行出租车吗？

Would you ride in a flying taxi?

人工智能模型会去打仗吗？

Will AI models fight wars?

每周一收听《Tech Camp》——这是Shortwave推出的新节目，带你了解科技前沿。

Hear about the technological frontier every Monday on Tech Camp, the new series from Shorewave.

在

Listen on

NPR应用或你常用的播客平台收听。

the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周的指标，达里安·伍兹，你来。

Indicators of the week, Darian Woods, you.

说吧。

Go.

我关注的指标是25%，这是美国本周对大多数巴西产品加征的关税税率。

My indicator is 25%, which is the amount of tariffs that The US is slapping on most Brazilian products this week.

这比之前统一的10%临时关税更高了。

It's It's an increase from the blanket 10% temporary tariffs.

达伦，那我的巴西凉鞋怎么办？

Darren, what about my Brazilian flip flops?

很抱歉。

I'm sorry.

它们很可能会被加征关税。

They'll likely be tariffed.

真不好意思这么说。

Sorry to say.

可你要是还没买，那它们现在还不算你的呢。

Well, they aren't yours yet if you haven't bought them.

我身上这件衬衫其实是巴西产的。

This shirt I'm wearing actually is also Brazilian.

碰巧是。

Happens to be.

我是在加税之前买的。

I got it before the tariffs.

你这身打扮，活脱脱像个巴西土豪啊，达伦。

Well, you look like a Brazilian bucks, Darian.

这挺好。

That's good.

但我一边笑一边摇头。

But Simultaneously smiling and shaking my head.

不过我提这个，是因为美国政府给这些关税找的理由，跟我们指标里提到的东西有关。

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because the US government justified these tariffs with something up our alley at the indicator.

他们说的是巴西的一个电子支付系统，叫Pix。

It was about Brazil's electronic payment system called Pix.

那这跟PayPal或者Venmo差不多吗？

So is that like PayPal or Venmo?

它比Zelle还方便。

It's like a better Zelle.

银行账户之间转账能立刻到账。

You got instant payments between bank account to bank account.

现在在巴西很多地方，根本都不用信用卡或借记卡了。

You don't even really need to use a credit card or a debit card in many places in Brazil now.

Pix特别受欢迎。

Pix is extremely popular.

在巴西很多地方，它几乎取代了现金。

It's almost taken the place of cash in many areas of Brazil.

由巴西央行运营。

It's run by the Brazilian Central Bank.

美国政府不太喜欢央行既监管金融服务，又运营Pix，这相当于在跟其他金融产品竞争。

And the US government does not like that the Central Bank is both regulating financial services in general and running PICCs, which could be argued as a competitor to other financial products.

对。

Right.

所以我想，万事达和维萨肯定不太高兴。

So I'm guessing Mastercard, Visa, they're not very happy about this.

是的。

Yeah.

你这么一说倒有意思。

Funny you say that.

有个叫信息技术产业委员会的行业协会，代表维萨、万事达，还有像Meta这样的公司。

There is a trade group called the Information Technology Industry Council, which represents Visa, Mastercard, but also Meta among others.

它抱怨说，巴西央行强制要求零售银行必须使用并推广Pix。

And it has complained that Brazil's central bank mandated that the retail banks have to use and promote picks.

更让它们不满的是，几年前WhatsApp在应用里推出转账功能后，巴西央行立刻修改了规定，迫使Meta暂停了这项服务。

And it's also annoyed that after WhatsApp launched a way to transfer money a few years ago on the app, Brazil's central bank immediately changed regulation that forced Meta to suspend that service.

明白了。

Okay.

所以意思是，如果巴西制定的规则压制了竞争对手，那对市场竞争就不利了。

So the idea is that if Brazil is making regulation that can stifle competitors, that would be bad for competition.

是的。

Yeah.

但在一场新闻发布会上，巴西央行行长说，这简直就像说建立基本的公共卫生设施会损害水车运营商的收入。

But at a news conference, the head of the Brazilian Central Bank said, it would be kind of like saying that creating basic sanitation hurts the revenue of those who own water trucks.

他认为整个说法简直荒谬至极。

He thought the whole thing was ridiculous.

一家总部位于巴西的支付行业组织非常支持Picks系统。

A trade group for payment companies that's actually inside Brazil is very pro picks.

Picks系统如此成功，以至于其他国家都在向巴西学习，想把这套系统引入本国。

And picks has been so successful that other countries are looking to Brazil to use the system elsewhere.

这真是巴西Picks的成功典范。

It's a Brazilian pick success story.

非常有意思。

Very interesting.

谢谢，达里安。

Thank you, Darian.

我这周的指标是4173，这是截至本录音时，美国疾控中心记录的环孢子虫病确诊病例数。

My indicator of the week is 4,173, which as of this recording is the number of confirmed cases of cyclosporiasis according to the CDC.

是啊。

That yeah.

听到这个数字可不怎么样。

That is not a great number to hear.

如果你没注意到之前的提醒，环孢子虫病是一种食源性疾病，由一种叫环孢子虫卡亚廷ensis的寄生虫引起。

So in case you missed the PSA, cyclosporiasis is a foodborne illness that's caused by a parasite called cyclospora kyatinensis.

我觉得我念得应该没错。

I think I'm pronouncing that right.

要是吃了或者喝了被污染的东西，人会病得很重。

And it makes people very sick if you eat or drink it.

有多严重？

How sick?

我觉得很多人应该都听说过这种病。

I think a lot of people have heard them.

症状包括恶心、疲劳、腹痛，还有严重的腹泻。

They include nausea, fatigue, cramping, and also explosive diarrhea.

目前这次疫情的确切源头尚不明确，但联邦卫生官员正在调查，是否与泰勒农场供应给塔可钟的受污染生菜有关。

Now the exact source of this outbreak is still unknown, but federal health officials, they've been investigating whether this may have come from contaminated lettuce from Taylor Farms that was served at Taco Bell.

正如你所料，公告发布后几天内，针对塔可钟的诉讼迅速增多，原告认为塔可钟应对大家生病负责。

And as you might expect, in the days after they made this announcement, there has been an outbreak of litigation, of lawsuits against Taco Bell arguing that Taco Bell is responsible for making people sick.

其中一种法律依据是‘严格责任’，也就是说，原告不需要证明塔可钟存在疏忽。

And one of the legal theories that they're doing this under is a theory called strict liability, which means that they don't actually have to prove that Taco Bell was negligent in this case.

他们只需要证明，这个食品——

They only have to prove that the product, I.

嗯，

E.

也就是他们的食物，存在缺陷且具有危险性，并且确实导致了伤害。

Their food, was defective and dangerous, and they got hurt by it.

所以，即使塔可钟所有操作都完全合规，只要有人吃了他们提供的食物生病，他们仍然可能要承担责任。

So even if Taco Bell did everything right, it could still be liable if somebody gets sick from food it served.

没错。

Right.

即使他们处理生菜时穿着全套防护服。

Even if they were wearing hazmat suits while handling the the lettuce.

对吧？

Right?

有可能。

Potentially.

严格责任之所以被法官常用于产品致人伤害的案件，主要有几个原因。

And and there are a few reasons why strict liability is this legal principle that judges often apply to cases where products end up injuring people.

首先是，让企业承担这类伤害的代价，比让个人承担更公平。

The first one being that it just seems fairer for a company to bear the cost of this kind of injury rather than an individual.

其次，这种情况在经济学家看来属于信息不对称。

And secondly, this is a situation where economists might say there's an information asymmetry.

企业比普通消费者更具备能力去检查产品是否存在安全隐患。

The company is in a better position to inspect products for safety hazards than the general public.

最后，让公司承担这样的责任，能促使它们真正把安全放在首位，时刻保持警惕。

Finally, holding companies responsible in this way incentivizes them to really prioritize safety and kind of be on it.

我这边有些诉讼方面的数据。

I've got some lawsuit stuff.

我这周的数据显示，有四万人，这差不多就是每年在美国因车祸丧生的人数。

My indicator this week is forty thousand, and that's roughly how many Americans die in car crashes every year.

明白了。

Okay.

这太惨烈了，真是。

It's just brutal That's

太多了。

a lot.

这周还有些关于美国人健康的统计数据，不过你继续说。

Statistics about Americans' health this week, but carry on.

是的。

Yeah.

这周我其实读了一篇亚历克斯·塔巴罗克写的博客文章。

And I actually read a blog post this week by Alex Tabarrok.

他是位经济学家，我们这周早些时候在另一期节目里刚采访过他。

He's an economist we actually interviewed on another episode earlier this week.

他的文章讲的是，自动驾驶公司Waymo公开了一大批关于自动驾驶汽车的安全数据。

His post was about how Waymo, the self driving car company, released a huge tranche of safety data on its self driving cars.

文章称，坐自动驾驶汽车的人，在车祸中受重伤或更严重伤害的概率降低了94%。

It claims that if you're in a self driving car, you are ninety four percent less likely to be seriously injured or worse in a car crash.

机器人又赢了一局。

Notch one win for the robots.

不过说公平点，这数据是Waymo自己发布的，而且只覆盖了少数几个城市。

To be fair, it is Waymo's own data, and it was also limited to a small number of cities.

但现在国会里正有不少提案，想推动更多城市允许自动驾驶汽车上路。

But there's all this proposed legislation kicking around congress right now to encourage more cities to allow self driving cars.

这些提案的依据，就是认为这类汽车确实更安全。

It's all built on the idea that these cars are, in fact, safer.

不过，还是存在一些反对声音。

Still, though, there is some opposition.

明白了。

Okay.

来自

From

好吧。

Well, okay.

咱们来想一想。

Let's think about it.

谁从车祸里赚大钱？

Who makes a ton of money on car crashes?

谁真正想分走每年大约两千亿美元的车祸赔偿金？

Who really wants to take home a slice of the around 200,000,000,000 car crash payout pie?

谁真能拿到一千八百美元。

Who real $1,800.

你在高速公路上受伤了。

You've been injured on this highway.

现在就联系我们。

Call us now.

我们会帮你把这事办妥。

Gonna get this done for you.

没错。

That's right.

多年来，诉讼律师一直反对这类立法，有怀疑者会认为，他们担心事故少了，官司也就少了，收入来源之一可能大幅缩水。

Trial lawyers have been lobbying against legislation like this for years and a skeptic might conclude they're worried that fewer accidents means fewer lawsuits means maybe a lot less money from one of their biggest profit engines.

但他们也指出，高额赔偿金能促使制造商提升安全标准。

But they also point out that big settlement costs motivate manufacturers to up their safety standards.

比如十多年前通用汽车因点火开关缺陷引发的诉讼案。

For example, there's this General Motors litigation from a little over a decade ago over bad ignition switches.

对。

Right.

所以律师们起诉了通用汽车，然后呢？

So the lawyers sued General Motors and what?

通用汽车之后改进了他们的产品吗？

The General Motors improved their product after that?

是的。

Yeah.

点火开关故障导致超过一百人死亡，三千万辆汽车被召回。

The ignition switches had caused over a 100 deaths and 30,000,000 cars to be recalled.

之后，通用汽车把所有这些车都从路上撤了下来。

And afterwards, General Motors took all those cars off the road.

但之前那篇博客的作者亚历克斯说，诉讼结果有时候还挺随机的。

But Alex, the person who wrote that blog post from earlier, he says lawsuit outcomes can also kinda be pretty random.

比如你出事在哪个州、陪审团是谁，这些因素对结果的影响，可能比事故本身或点火开关有没有缺陷还要大。

Things like what state you got t boned in and who's on the jury can have a much bigger impact on the outcome than the accident itself or whether an ignition switch was or wasn't defective.

所以，如果自动驾驶汽车让事故变少了，那如果没有这些诉讼，谁来推动汽车变得更安全呢？

So so if there are fewer crashes in a world with robotic cars, who would actually be doing the motivating to make cars safer if it it weren't these lawsuits?

亚历克斯觉得，真正会推动安全改进的会是保险公司。

Alex basically thinks it would be the insurance companies that would be doing this.

他的想法是借鉴英国2018年的一项法律，要求所有自动驾驶汽车制造商必须为自己车辆购买保险。

His idea is to borrow from this 2018 law in The UK, which made all self driving carmakers buy their own insurance.

一旦出事故，就让保险公司和车企自己去争个明白。

And then if there's an accident, you just let the insurance company and the manufacturers duke it out.

也许这部分也可以自动化。

Maybe you can automate that as well.

明白了。

Alright.

好了，这周的观察就这些。

Well, that's it for indicators of the week.

谢谢大家收听。

Thanks everybody for listening.

谢谢维托的参与。

Thank you, Vito, for joining.

谢谢邀请我参加。

Thank you for having me.

咱们再搞一次吧。

Let's do this again.

大家都要照顾好自己。

And, people, take care of yourselves.

吃生菜之前，最好彻底洗干净。

Maybe wash your lettuce real good before you eat it.

本期节目由安吉尔·科雷拉斯制作，音频工程由 Kwase Lee 负责。

This episode was produced by Angel Correras with engineering by Kwase Lee.

内容核实由科里·布里奇斯和艾玛·费拉拉完成。

It was fact checked by Corey Bridges and Emma Ferrara.

凯特·孔卡达负责节目编辑以及 NPR 的制作统筹。

Kate Concada edits the show and the indicators of production of NPR.

中期选举快到了，这意味着本已紧张的新一轮周期，这个秋天只会更加激烈。

The midterms are coming, and that means the new cycle, which is already intense, is about to get more intense this fall.

所以这个夏天正是调整你新闻摄入的好时机。

So this summer is a perfect time to make sure your news diet is calibrated.

我是莱拉·法迪尔。

I'm Layla Faldil.

在《早间新闻》节目中，我们每天早上为你梳理三大要闻，让你在十五分钟内掌握重点，轻松开始一天。

On Up First, we unpack the three biggest stories every morning so you can stay informed and get on with your day in less than fifteen minutes.

今天就去你常用的播客平台关注或订阅《早间新闻》吧。

Follow or subscribe to Up First today wherever you get your podcasts.

《短波》和《帕拉科学》这两个播客的每期内容，都始于一个问题。

Every story from Shortwave and Parascience podcasts starts with a question.

比如，我们为什么会做噩梦？

Like, why do we have nightmares?

人工智能是怎么影响你的电费的？

How does AI affect my energy bill?

在 NPR，我们支持你对周围世界保持好奇的权利。

At NPR, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you.

无论你在哪儿听播客，都别忘了关注Shortwave，你问得越多，这个世界就越有意思。

Follow Shortwave wherever you get your podcasts because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets.