Axios首席执行官谈“后新闻”时代，Tubi首席执行官谈抖音奖，Lyft的自动驾驶目标 | 2025年12月18日

因此，我们总是在寻找有趣的方式，以继续支持这种增长。

And so, you know, we're always looking for interesting ways to continue to support that growth.

您提到了公司目前的财务状况，你们已经出色地实现了过去十二个月超过10亿美元的自由现金流。

You mentioned the financial profile of the company now, and you guys have done some great work getting yourselves to more than $1,000,000,000 in free cash flow for the trailing twelve months.

这两项资产——Free Now和TBR——是否已经实现正向自由现金流？

Those two assets, Free Now and TBR, are they free cash flow positive?

嗯，当你思考Free Now以及如何实现协同效应时，首先，它本身就是一个不错的业务。

Well, look, when you think about Free Now and how those synergies will be generated, first of all, it's a nice little business in and of itself.

它在欧洲的出租车市场运营，属于高端产品。

It plays in the taxi space in Europe, which is a premium product.

他们最擅长的是整合车队。

And really, what they're great at doing is bringing fleets on.

而我们擅长的是优化这些算法，从而大幅提升效率。

What we're great at doing gonna do is tweak those algorithms that are really gonna raise the efficiency levels.

此外，我们还可以叠加像全球合作伙伴关系这样的举措，这如今是Lyft在北美地区的重要战略。

And then you add on to that things like our global our partnerships, which is a huge strategy for Lyft domestically in North America today.

我们与全球公司合作。

We partner with global companies.

这将扩大。

That's gonna expand.

我们的媒体业务也将扩展。

Our media business is going to expand.

因此，存在多层次的协同效应，我们可以利用这些核心表现来真正加速它。

So there's layers of synergies where we can take that core performance and really accelerate it.

TBR全球专车服务也是如此。

The same with TBR Global Chauffeuring.

就收入、利润和现金流而言，它本身就是一个了不起的业务。

It's an incredible business in and of itself in terms of the top line, its profit profile, its cash profile.

将其置于我们整体平台的优势之上，我们就拥有巨大的机会来加速它。

You put it on the strength of our overall platform, and we have incredible opportunities to accelerate that.

所以听起来，这两项业务都在产生自由现金流，这些想法。

So it sounds like both of them are generating free cash flow, the ideas.

是的。

Yeah.

这两项业务虽然产生的自由现金流水平略有不同，但目前都在产生，并将对我们的整体现金流状况做出积极贡献。

Both of those businesses generate their slightly different levels, but they do today, and they'll be positive contributions to our overall cash profile.

对。

Right.

好吧，最后一个问题，在交给你安妮塔之前，当你考虑并购时，如何在进一步扩展公司的同时保持自由现金流的状况？

Well, know, last question before I hand it over to Anita is, you know, as you think about M and A, how do you preserve that free cash flow profile then as you seek to build out the company further?

嗯，看看吧，业务本身的有机部分拥有非常强劲的持续现金流状况。

Well, look, just the organic piece of the business is in extremely strong ongoing cash profile position.

所以我们预计能够实现转化。

So we expect to convert.

我们将其称为调整后EBITDA的转化率。

We talk about it as a conversion of our adjusted EBITDA.

在未来几年，我们预计这一转化率将保持在非常高的水平。

We expect to convert that at very high levels as we look out over the next couple of years.

因此，我们在健康现金流生成方面拥有非常强劲的增长空间，这将支持我们的资本配置策略。

So we see extremely strong runway in terms of healthy cash generation profile, and that's gonna support what is our capital deployment strategy.

这实际上由三个基础层面构成。

And it's really kind of three foundational layers.

第一，充足的流动性。

One, ample liquidity.

这是一项规模庞大的业务，因此拥有充足的流动性以支持运营至关重要。

This is a hugely scaled business, so ample liquidity to support the operation is incredibly important.

支持我们的增长，无论是通过有机增长，还是通过我们看到的非有机方式加速增长，都是这一策略的另一部分。

Supporting our growth, whether it's through organic growth or opportunities that we see to accelerate our growth in inorganic means, is another piece of that strategy.

当然，我们在今年年初宣布了首次股票回购计划。

And then we obviously announced an inaugural share buyback program at the start of this year.

整个计划的规模为7.5亿美元，我们将在2025年前完成其中5亿美元的回购。

$750,000,000 is the size of the overall program, and we'll complete $500,000,000 of that program by the 2025.

因此，减少我们的股本规模，确保我们始终关注提升投资者价值，至关重要且重要。

So really around reducing our share profile, ensuring that we've got our eye to that from expanding investor value is really critical and important.

这就是我们计划的三个层面。

Those are the three layers of our program.

埃琳，我想就并购这个话题问问你的想法。

Erin, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your rationale, just staying on the topic of M and A here.

客户调研和分析最终让你确信，在最近收购的这些领域中，购买比自建更好，原因是什么？

What was the customer research and analysis convinced you ultimately that in these areas of your recent acquisitions, was better to buy than to build?

是的，当然。

Yeah, absolutely.

如果你想想欧洲的Free Now，那是一个具有吸引力的市场。

So, you know, if you think about Free Now in Europe, that's a landscape that's an attractive market.

这些行程的平均价值通常更高。

Those rides tend to carry higher values.

Free Now在聚合出租车服务方面已经建立了独特的定位，我们觉得这非常有吸引力，并认为它是一个我们可以真正创造价值的平台。

Free Now had really carved out a niche in terms of aggregating taxi that we found extremely attractive and we thought was going to be a platform for which we could actually add value.

对吧？

Right?

你希望在任何并购交易中找到那种1+1=3的效果。

You wanna find that classic one plus one equals three in any M and A transaction.

我们当然对这些市场进行了深入研究。

And we obviously did deep research in the markets.

它们在九个市场开展业务。

They operate across nine markets.

市场的特点、客户画像。

The characteristics of the market, the customer profiles.

这是一类高度以商务为导向的旅客。

It's a heavily, you know, business oriented traveler.

这对我们的参与和加速增长来说是一个绝佳的客户群体。

That's a great profile for for us to participate in and accelerate that growth.

而且，我们再次思考，除了在Free Now的车队或司机端能带来什么价值，还能为乘客带来什么价值。

And understanding, again, what else we could bring to the table that would ultimately be of value both in terms of the fleet side or the driver side on Free Now, but also to the rider.

我们对此进行了深入细致的思考。

We think about that very in-depth.

再来看TBR，全球专车服务，这实际上是我们在高端服务中最顶级的 offerings。

And then if you think about TBR, global chauffeuring, this is really, again, at the highest end of our premium offerings.

我们一直专注于一项非常明确的战略，以提升和加速我们高端服务的增长与价值。

We have been focused on a very specific strategy to increase and accelerate the growth and the value at our premium ends.

例如，今年第三季度，正如我们所提到的，我们高端出行服务的增长同比达到了50%，而我们才刚刚开始。

And in the third quarter of this year, for example, you know, what we've talked about is that growth at that higher end piece of our ride offering was up 50% year over year, and we're just getting started.

因此，TBR为我们提供了强大的能力，特别是在针对商务旅客、与活动合作伙伴合作时，除了平台上现有的核心高端出行服务外，还能提供更高层次的卓越服务，从而完善整体产品，使我们在市场中脱颖而出。

So TBR really adds a capacity as we think about, in particular, targeting that business traveler, engaging with partners around events to provide, in addition to the core premium rides that are available on the platform, really that next level of incredible service that really round out the offering and make us differentiated in the market.

你刚才提到了一些关于TBR的内容。

So, you talked a little bit about TBR.

我想再深入聊聊Free Now，Erin，因为我最近在纳斯达克听了你的演讲，你提到美国许多小城市，以及北美这些渗透率较低的市场如何成为你们增长的重要来源。

I wanted to double click on Free Now a little bit, Erin, because I listened to you talk at the NASDAQ recently and you mentioned a lot about smaller cities in The US and how these underpenetrated markets in North America have been a great source of growth for you.

Free Now显然总部位于欧洲。

Free Now obviously is based in Europe.

你们在加拿大也一直在大力扩展。

You guys have also been expanding a lot in Canada.

我只是想问一下，从宏观上看，你们未来的地理扩张计划是什么？

And I just wanted to ask, what are your geographic expansion plans big picture going forward?

你知道，今天我们显然非常专注于我们目前运营的市场。

You know, today we're obviously incredibly focused on where we operate.

美国和加拿大这些传统市场仍具有强大的增长潜力。

The US and Canada, our traditional markets still have strong growth opportunities ahead.

你提到了美国的渗透率较低的市场。

You've mentioned underpenetrated markets in The U.

这些市场一直是我们的主要增长来源。

S, which has been a strong source of growth.

别忘了，即使在2025年，我们仍在加拿大不断推出新的省份和城市。

And don't forget, even in 2025, we continued to launch new provinces, new cities across Canada.

因此，当我们展望2026年时，增长空间依然非常广阔。

So as we think about 2026, again, a lot of runway for growth.

而欧洲则为我们开辟了全新的前沿。

And then Europe really presents a new front for us.

在最近几个月完成收购后，团队立即投入工作，开始捕捉最初的协同效应，以改善该业务的核心运营方式。

And so the teams, as we closed the acquisition in the recent months, got right to work in terms of capturing that initial beginning to capture that initial synergy profile in terms of just improving the core way that that business operates.

我们对未来的前景感到非常兴奋。

And we're really excited for what comes ahead.

我们手头有许多令人兴奋的执行任务，以及多个正在推进的增长路径。

So we've got a lot on our plate to execute that we're excited about and a number of different growth trajectories that we're pursuing.

我们对此非常专注。

We're very focused on that.

艾琳，现在是时候谈谈一个当前每个人都在关注的话题了，尤其是我们刚才提到的Waymo正在洽谈以双倍上次估值融资的消息。

I think it's a good time, Erin, to get into a topic that is top of everyone's minds today, especially after our story earlier that Waymo is in talks to raise funding at double its last valuation.

我想每个人都在思考电动汽车，以及在旧金山和其他城市使用电动汽车的问题。

I think everyone is thinking about EVs, using EVs in San Francisco and other cities.

你们实际上在2020年收购了一个有趣的资产——FlexDrive，并一直用它来为你们与Waymo合作的车辆提供服务和清洁。

You guys actually bought an interesting asset in 2020, FlexDrive, and you've been using it to service and clean some of the vehicles associated with your partnership with Waymo.

我一直在想，你们的竞争对手Uber也与Waymo有类似的合作伙伴关系，但它们采取了不同的方式。

And I've just been thinking, you know, Uber also, your competitor, has similar partnerships with Waymo, but they've taken a different approach.

他们使用第三方来维修和清洁车辆。

They use third parties for sort of servicing and cleaning the cars.

所以，我想听听你的看法，拥有FlexDrive是否是一种优势？

So, I wanted to hear from you, has owning flex drive been an advantage?

它如何帮助了你们？

And how has that helped you?

我们绝对认为拥有FlexDrive是一种优势，并且将继续保持这种优势。

We absolutely think owning flex drive has been an advantage and will continue to be an advantage.

在自动驾驶行业初期，尽管这个领域实际上仍非常新兴，但人们一度忘记了，确保这项技术的高可用性是一个至关重要的基础层。

You know, at the advent of this industry on AVs, which is still frankly quite nascent, I think people sort of forgot for a minute that having very high availability of this technology was a critical foundational layer.

对吧？

Right?

如果车辆无法投入使用、无法被叫到，那么你就无法优化你的收入机会。

If a vehicle isn't available to be deployed, to be hailed, then you're not, you know, you're not optimizing your revenue generating opportunity.

而要做到这一点，你需要背后有卓越的运营能力。

And in order to do that, you need to have incredible operational excellence behind it.

我们知道FlexDry绝对会成为整体方案和这场对话中的超级优势，可以说是我们的秘密武器。

We knew FlexDry was absolutely gonna be a superpower, a secret weapon, if you will, in that overall mix and in that conversation.

我们非常有信心，它将继续保持这一优势。

And we have high confidence that it will continue to be.

它的独特之处在于，它确实是一种车队管理功能。

What's unique about it is, yes, it's a fleet management capability.

我们今天拥有超过一万辆汽车。

We own over 10,000 cars today.

我们在十几个主要城市设有实体中心。

We operate in over a dozen major cities with physical centers.

这一点很重要。

So that's important.

但更重要的是，它是为网约车优化的。

But what's incredibly important is it's optimized for rideshare.

这一点极其独特，我们认为在我们持续构建自动驾驶生态、以及在混合模式下思考网约车服务时，它将变得极其有价值。

And that's incredibly unique, and we think is going to be incredibly valuable as we think about the continued build out of the AV landscape, as you think about ride hailing in a hybrid world.

所以，关于自动驾驶汽车的利润率结构，听起来是这样的：如果看三年后，你认为它会如何改变你的利润率结构？

So it sounds like then with respect to margin structure for autonomous vehicles, I mean, if you look three years out, how do you think it changes your margin structure?

有趣的是，如今你不仅在Lyft以及我们参与的所有合作伙伴关系中，而且在整个行业中，都能看到大量不同的模式正在被广泛试验。

You know, it's interesting because today what you see across not only Lyft and all of the partnerships that we're engaged in, but across the industry, you see a high level of experimentation with many, many different models.

我认为在短期内这种状况还会持续下去。

That I think will continue for certain over the near term.

当人们开始逐渐理清这些模式，更重要的是明确他们想在价值链的哪个环节参与时——我指的是从上游到下游——那时我们才会更清晰地看到自动驾驶如何融入我们的整体损益结构。

And as people begin to, you know, figure out the models and more importantly, out exactly where they want to play, and I'm talking up and down the value chain, I think then that will be the point where we'll come into focus about exactly how it will fall into our overall P and L structure.

但我想说的是，我们对自动驾驶技术的到来感到无比兴奋。

But what I can say to you is that we are incredibly excited about the advent of AV technology.

我们看到，如今它正在扩大市场。

We see today that it expands the market.

我们在那些已部署了规模化自动驾驶车队的城市中看到了这一点。

We see that in the cities where AVs operate and have been operating at some scaled fleet.

我们知道，并且深信，一个混合网络——即能够高效服务乘客，无论是人类司机还是自动驾驶汽车——将成为胜出的模式。

And we know and have high conviction that a hybrid network, so the ability to service riders, incredibly efficiency, whether it's a human driver, an autonomous driver, is going to be the winning model.

因此，总的来说，这不仅对我们的收入增长有利，也有助于我们持续提升利润率。

And so net net, this is great not only for our top line growth, but as we continue to seek to expand margins.

我想在考虑这一点时，从长远来看，你认为价格是否必须上涨以弥补利润率？

I guess as you think about that, I mean, do you think that prices in the long term will have to come up to be able to offset the margins?

你看到成本在下降吗？

Do you see the costs coming down?

你是如何看待这个问题的？

How do you think about that?

如果你具体讨论自动驾驶汽车，你必须考虑一长串的假设和输入因素，其中最关键的是硬件最终如何规模化以及成本将落在何处。

If you're talking specifically about autonomous vehicles, you have to go down a laundry list of assumptions and inputs, the most critical being around how will the hardware ultimately scale and where will that cost land.

然后你还需要了解监管和保险结构整体将如何定位。

Then you have to understand where will the regulatory and sort of insurance structure land overall.

因此，还需要几年时间来发展，以便我们能更确定地了解这些因素在规模化后的具体情况。

And so, there are a number of years here for that to develop so that we know those inputs with a lot more certainty at scale.

我认为这将最终影响整个市场的定价动态。

And I think that will influence ultimately where the pricing dynamic lies in the overall market.

话虽如此，我认为我们最终会在规模化时达到那个阶段。

That being said, I do think we will reach a point at scale.

这肯定不会发生在明年。

It's certainly not going to be next year.

这需要多年之后，所有这些才会变得更加清晰，让我们能够理解其结构。

It's going to be multiple years down the road where that all becomes much more into focus so that we understand the structures.

但最终，无论你是考虑自动驾驶、人工驾驶，还是混合网络，这已经成为人们满足出行需求的一种不可或缺的方式。

But ultimately, if you think about whether it's autonomous, human driven, the hybrid network, this has become really an essential way that people get their transportation needs met.

我认为自动驾驶将扩大这一整体规模。

I think autonomous will expand that overall.

因此，持续提供价格有竞争力且服务水准极高的服务至关重要。

And so it's critical that we continue to be able to deliver a competitively priced service that delivers very, very high levels of service.

我认为，艾琳，我们在自动驾驶方面仍处于早期阶段，但你们已经通过建立大量新合作伙伴关系取得了很大拓展。

I think it's clear that we're in earlier days in terms of AVs, Erin, but one area where you guys have expanded a lot already is by adding all these new partnerships.

你们与DoorDash建立了合作伙伴关系。

You have partnerships with DoorDash.

你们在上一次财报电话会议上提到过联合航空。

United was one that you talked about on the last earnings call.

希尔顿。

Hilton.

我只是想问一下，这也会对你们的长期利润率结构产生影响。

And I just wanted to ask, this affects your long term margin structure as well.

在这类合作中，是谁向谁付款？

In these sorts of deals, who is paying who?

这类合作通常是由双方共同投入的，对吧？

These sorts of deals generally constructed where both parties are contributing, right?

所以你们有一个共同出资的机制。

So you've got a co funding mechanism.

这至关重要，因为要建立持久的合作伙伴关系，双方都必须全力以赴。

And that's incredibly important because to build durable partnerships, you need both partners to be really in it to win it.

这意味着你们从一开始就明白，双方都对吸引新乘客或新消费者、建立忠诚度、提高参与度和使用频率有着深厚的利益。

And what that means is you go into this understanding that both have a deep interest in introducing new riders or new consumers to the service, building loyalty, building high engagement, building higher frequency.

在项目的整个生命周期中，你会看到通过投资和不同的活动来逐步扩大规模。

And you see that throughout the life of a program with investments, with different campaigns to grow it over time.

Lyft 在这方面有着非常成功的实施记录。

And Lyft has a track record of doing that very, very successfully.

与合作伙伴相关的乘车订单在我们的整体业务中显著增长。

Rides that are tagged to partnerships have grown significantly as part of our overall profile.

这些乘车订单具有非常高的质量特征，意味着这些乘客更倾向于选择更高价值的乘车服务。

And those rides, you know, contain very, you know, high quality characteristics, meaning those riders tend to take a higher mix of higher value rides.

因此，它们通常带来高于平均水平的盈利能力。

So they tend to bring higher than average profitability.

因此，深化我们的合作伙伴关系并持续拓展这一机会，一直是我们的重点，并将在我们展望2026年及以后时继续如此。

So deepening our partnerships and continuing to penetrate, that opportunity has been a huge focus and will continue to be so as we think about 2026 and beyond.

您能否让我们了解一下，你们主要合作伙伴的资金分摊比例大概是怎样的？

Can you give us a sense of what that funding split might look like for any of your bigger partnerships?

比如，以联合航空为例？

Say, let's take United?

嗯。

Yeah.

这因合作伙伴而异，所以我不会深入细节。

It varies by partner, so I'm not going go into details.

但通常来说是平衡的。

But, you know, it tends to be balanced.

而且这实际上也取决于我们合作所处的阶段以及我们针对的用户群体。

And it really also is informed by what stage of the partnership we're in, what cohorts we're going after.

所以这就是我所能提供的大致情况。

So that's sort of the general color that I'll provide.

明白了。

Got it.

那么我们转向另一个话题，埃琳，本周我们得知 FTC 正在就 Uber One 订阅计划起诉 Uber。

So moving to another area, Erin, the FTC, we got news this week, is suing Uber over its Uber One subscription program.

我以前经常听你们说，你们本质上是一家网约车公司。

And I've heard you guys say a lot before that you're fundamentally a rideshare company.

你们并不打算涉足除乘车和汽车之外的其他领域。

You're not looking to get into any other areas outside of riders and cars.

我只是想知道，就监管事务而言，你个人最关注的是哪个方面？

And I was just wondering, where do you personally spend the most time in terms of thinking about regulatory affairs?

是保险吗？

I mean, is it insurance?

是工人分类吗？

Is it worker classification?

还是其他方面？

Is it something else?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，首先，安妮塔，也许谈谈你最初的观点，因为我觉得这很好地承接了我们刚才讨论的合作伙伴关系话题，对吧？

I mean, first, you know, maybe touch on your initial point, Anita, because I think it's a great segue from what we were just discussing in partnerships, right?

因此，Lyft平台上的乘客与合作伙伴的互动方式截然不同。

So riders on the Lyft platform and the way they engage with partners are very, very different.

所以你是一个既喜欢网约车又喜欢外卖配送的人。

So you're someone who loves rideshare and you also love food delivery.

我们通过与Lyft和DoorDash的合作，以及与联合航空等的合作，提供了行业最佳的方案。

We've got the best offering in the industry with our Lyft and DoorDash partnerships, same with United, etcetera.

我们认为这是一个非常好的模式，我们很高兴能继续发展它。

So we think that's a great model, and we're excited to continue to grow that.

就整体监管环境而言，当你运营一项对城市交通环境至关重要的服务时，必须以与地方、州级或联邦层面真正合作的心态来应对。

In terms of the regulatory landscape overall, it's important when you operate a service that is so essential to the transportation environment that happens with cities that you go into it with a mindset of really partnering both locally at a state level or federally.

这正是我们公司一直以来的做法。

And that is the way that we've gone about this as a company.

我们认为这总体上是一个成功的模式。

We think it's been a winning model overall.

这正是我们真正欣赏FreeNow的地方。

It's something we also frankly really liked about FreeNow.

因此，监管环境存在于我们业务的方方面面。

And so the regulatory environment is present in all aspects of our business.

我们合作得非常紧密。

We partner extremely closely.

我们从一些更具现实意义的领域来思考这个问题，比如加利福尼亚州关于保险的改革，对此我们感到兴奋。

And we think about it from the lens of some of the areas that are more present has been around some of this reform in California around insurance, which we're excited about.

这项改革将于2026年启动。

It's going to kick off in 2026.

我们认为，这可以为其他州提供一个契机，推动美国整体网约车保险市场加速实施我们所认为的合理改革。

And we think that that could present a canvas, if you will, for other states to do some accelerated, what we view as common sense reform in overall rideshare insurance marketplace in The United States.

所以，埃琳，我得问一下。

So, Erin, I've got to ask.

你是一位CFO。

You're a CFO.

我相信你每天都要做出艰难的资本配置决策。

You make tough capital allocation decisions every day, I'm sure.

过去六个月里，你做出的最艰难的决策是什么？

What is the toughest one you've had to make in the last six months?

我经常对团队说这句话。

I say this to the team all the time.

这也很相关，因为显然我们正在完成2026年的部分规划工作。

It's also relevant because obviously we are wrapping up some of our planning processes for 2026.

我们确实要做艰难的决定。

We do make tough decisions.

团队会告诉你，有时候这并不愉快，但我经常提醒他们：我宁愿处于这个位置，而不是其他任何位置，因为我们身处一个充满活力、不断增长的行业，我们拥有的优质投资机会——无论是资源还是资本——多到我们可能无法全部资助。

And the team will tell you sometimes it's not fun, but I remind them frequently, I'd rather be in this position than in any other position because we are in a growing, vibrant industry, and we have more great opportunities that would be possible for us to invest against, whether that's resources or capital, than we could probably fund.

因此，我们的工作是保持敏锐，尽可能聪明地选择投资领域。

So our job is to be discerning and try to be, you know, extremely smart about the areas that we invest.

所以这总是很艰难，但我宁愿面对这个问题，也不愿面对其他任何替代问题。

So it's always tough, but I'll take this problem over the, you know, the alternative problem any day.

但埃琳，最近是什么决定让你彻夜难眠？

But Erin, what decision kept you up at night last?

我的意思是，我们想知道，是某个交易吗？

I mean, you know, we're looking for was it a deal?

是不是有什么事情让你熬夜，纠结这个决定是否正确？

Was it an you know, something must have kept you up late trying to figure out if this was the right decision.

我不认为有任何决定让我因为担心我们是否犯了错误而睡不着觉。

I wouldn't say that any of them have kept me up in terms of, you know, are we making a mistake or not?

让我睡不着的是，当我们审视可能采取的不同路径时，看看其中的机会有多大，如何确保在众多输入因素下，我们选择的是正确的类别。

What keeps me up is when we look at the different pathways we could take, you know, and what the opportunity is, how do we make sure, given the variety of inputs, that we're choosing from the right category.

所以，出于保密，我现在不会具体说，但相比反复质疑或担心某个具体决定，我花更多时间在担忧这个问题上。

So, you know, confidential, so I'm not going to go into it right now, but that's where I spend more of my time worrying than frankly second guessing or worrying about a particular decision.

我们有几个非常有吸引力的选择。

We've got a couple of very attractive choices.

我们是该加大投入吗？

Do we double down?

还是说，我们应该分散投资，把赌注下在不同的方向上？

Do we spread bets, if you will, for where we are?

这些才是我们真正深入思考的问题。

Those are the things that we really think deeply about.

你觉得 Lyft 三年后会是什么样子？

Where do you think Lyft is three years from now?

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

我的意思是，我们今天正处于一条非凡的上升轨道上。

I mean, we're just on an incredible trajectory today.

我认为 Lyft 是这个行业中的创新者。

I think Lyft is the innovator in the industry.

我认为我们在行业中是服务领导者。

I think we are the service leader in our industry.

我认为我们会继续拓展至欧洲，继续拓展至加拿大。

I think we will continue to expand that across Europe, continue to expand that across Canada.

我认为我们会深入发展面向乘客的合作关系。

I think we'll continue to penetrate deeply in our rider facing partnerships.

我认为我们会成为混合型、以人类为基础、以自动驾驶为基础的叫车网络取得巨大成功的典范。

And I think we will be sort of the poster child for what it looks like to have an extremely successful hybrid, human based, autonomous based ride hailing network.

所以，这就是我对我们三年后前景的看法。

So that's where I see us three years from today.

很好。

Great.

埃琳，非常高兴你能做客我们的节目。

Well, Erin, it is so great to have you on the show.

感谢你加入我们。

I want to thank you for joining us.

这位是Lyft的首席财务官埃琳·布雷默，以及我们《The Information》的金融分析专栏作家阿妮塔·拉马斯瓦米。

That is Erin Brewer, the CFO of Lyft, and Anita Ramaswamy, our financial analysis columnist here at The Information.

Axios的联合创始人兼首席执行官向记者发出新的警告，称我们已进入一个‘后新闻时代’，信息比新闻本身更重要。

The co founder and CEO of Axios has a new warning out for journalists, saying, We have entered a post news era where information is what matters, not the news.

吉姆·范德海在一份发给Semaphore的备忘录中写下了这些内容。

Jim Vandehy wrote this in a memo shared with Semaphore.

《The Information》的创始人兼主编杰西卡·莱森与范德海展开对话，探讨这一‘后新闻时代’对新闻机构意味着什么。

The information's founder and editor in chief Jessica Lesson sat down with Vandehy for a conversation of what that post news era looks like for newsrooms.

这是那场对话。

Here is that conversation.

我很高兴能与吉姆·范德贾伊一起在这里，他一直是关于新闻未来发展的直言不讳的领导者。

Well, am so thrilled to be here with Jim Vandejai, who has been an outspoken leader in news about what is to come.

所以，吉姆，感谢你参加TI TV，向我们介绍你最新的宣言。

So Jim, thanks for joining TI TV to tell us about your latest manifesto, if you will.

这总是令人愉快的事。

It's always a treat.

很高兴见到你，杰西卡。

Good to see you, Jessica.

你本周写道，我们已经进入了后新闻时代。

So you wrote this week that we have entered the post news era.

作为一名新闻从业者，这听起来有点令人震惊，但请告诉我们你的意思。

This is a little jarring as a news person, but tell us what you meant.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你这名字简直太贴切了，对吧？

I mean, you have the perfect name, right?

现在更重要的是信息。

It's much more about information now.

如果你想想个人，二十年前、十年前，甚至五年前，他们对世界的认知主要由新闻塑造。

And if you think about the individual, twenty years ago, ten years ago, maybe even five years ago, most of how they saw the world was shaped by news.

对吧？

Right?

但现在，新闻只是其中一部分，还包括你听的播客、看的视频、出现在你社交媒体动态里的人，以及你的社交圈。

But now news is a part of it, but it's also by the podcasts you listen to, the videos that you watch, the people who show up in your social media feed, your your social circuit.

对我来说，这是一个巨大、巨大、巨大的转变，大多数公司和个体都还没有意识到。

And to me, this is a huge, huge, huge shift that most companies and most individuals have not grappled with.

它不再是红州美国、蓝州美国，或者我们只有几个信息茧房。

It's no longer like red America, blue America, or we have, like, these a couple of information bubbles.

我们可能有数百万个信息茧房，真正聪明的人即使彼此靠近，也可能因为信息来源不同而拥有截然不同的现实。

We might have millions of information bubbles where really smart people in close proximity to each other could have pretty different realities based on where they're consuming their content.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你和我都能玩这个游戏。

So if you you and I could both play this game.

如果你告诉我你的年龄、你的职业、你的政治立场，我大概就能猜出你获取大部分信息的来源。

If you told me how old you are, what you do, what your politics are, I could probably tell you where you get the vast majority of your information.

而且你可能正和某人坐在一起，而他们使用的平台是你从未访问过的。

And it's possible that you could be sitting with somebody, and they're on a platform you never visit.

对吧？

Right?

他们信任的是你从未听说过的人，关注的是你从未留意过的议题。

They're trusting people you've never heard of, following topics that never really come across your your radar.

这太疯狂了。

That's wild.

这不一样。

That's different.

这带来了巨大的政治影响和巨大的商业影响。

And that has huge, huge, huge political consequences and massive, massive business consequences.

你最近有没有看到什么加剧了这种情况？

Have you seen something lately that you think is exacerbating this?

我觉得你把过滤气泡的作用发挥到了极致。

I I think you connected it to filter bubbles to the nth degree.

但我在今年运营Axios以及与各方的交流中，不禁想问：我们是否正处于加速的转折点，还是只是在迟来地指出一个早已存在的时刻？

But I wonder in running Axios this year and all the conversations you have, are we at some inflection point of acceleration, or is this kind of just calling a moment that we've been late to call?

我认为我们现在正处于倾听阶段。

I think we're in listen.

我觉得从我们开始交谈以来，就一直处在这个高度波动的世界中，而我认为这即将被推向极致。

I think as long as you and I have been talking, we've been in this hypervolatility world, and I think it's about to be put on steroids.

我非常有信心，在未来十二到四十八个月内，我们将经历一次巨大的平台转型，从当前的网页和搜索转向基于大语言模型的模式。

I think it's it's I'm highly confident that in the next twelve to forty eight months, we're gonna go through a massive platform shift that will move from kind of web and search to something that is LLM based.

而你有如此多的不同选择。

And you have so many different choices.

你有来自YouTube上的人、播客创作者、网站运营者、Substack作者，以及像你我这样拥有公司的人都在产出高质量的内容。

You have really high quality content coming from people on YouTube, from people with podcasts, from people with sites, people with sub stacks, people like you and I with companies.

这意味着整个内容生态已经完全不同了。

That means that the whole mix is just different.

这就是为什么我说这是后新闻时代。

It is like, that's why I say it's post news.

我认为大多数人并不像你我这样看待新闻，因为我们是入行的人。

And I think most people don't think of news like you and I do because we got into the business.

他们只是想：我该怎么获取信息？

They just think about how do I get informed?

比如，我该接收哪些信息，才能做出明智的决策？

Like, do I take inputs so that I can make really good decisions?

不幸的是，现在充斥着大量垃圾信息。

Unfortunately, there's a there's a lot of pollution.

我认为当下的悖论在于：优质内容比人类历史上任何时期都多，而低质内容也比历史上任何时期都多。

I think there's more good the the paradox of the moment is there's more good content than at any point in humanity, and there's more crap content than at any point in humanity.

对于我们这些能够对信息输入做出健康选择的人来说，我不确定你怎么样，但我感觉自己如今几乎拥有了一个‘仿生大脑’，因为我知道该关注谁、该读什么、谁是聪明人、哪些出版物是正确的。

And for those of us that can make really healthy choices about the inputs, I don't know about you, but, like, I feel like I have almost a bionic brain these days because I know who to follow, I know what to read, I know who the smart people are, I know what the right publications are.

我觉得自己比以往任何时候都更能看清更多事物。

I feel like I have more visibility into more things than ever before.

但我们也身处这个行业。

But we're also in the business.

我们认识这些人。

We know these people.

我们雇用过他们。

We've hired them.

我们解雇过他们。

We fired them.

我们读过他们的作品。

We've read them.

我们曾在这些地方工作过。

We've worked at these places.

所以我们能够做到这一点。

So we were able to do that.

我希望通过Axios帮助其他人努力接近这种更像‘仿生大脑’的状态。

And what I hope to do with Axios is like help other people try to get to this approximation of a more bionic brain.

就是剔除那些糟糕的内容，加入真正优质的信息，这样你就能做出更好的决策。

Like, get rid of the crappy stuff, put in the really good stuff, and you can make much better decisions.

就拿你和我来说吧。

Like, think about even for you and I.

五年前、十年前，如果我们想了解世界上最有智慧的人的想法，也许偶尔能打个电话给他们，但现在我们所有人都能接触到这些信息。

Like, five years ago, ten years ago, if if we wanted to know what the smartest people in the world thought, like, maybe once in a while we got them on the phone, but now all of us have access to it.

他们都在做播客。

All of them are doing podcasts.

但我们知道他们希望我们怎么想。

Well, we know what they want us to think.

所以，我的意思是，我认为这正是你所说的‘后新闻’主题的一部分——我们如今已完全陷入宣传之中。

So, I I mean, I think this is part of the part of your theme of being post news is where we're also in full on propaganda.

我们还处于全面的故事叙述时代。

We're also in full on storytelling.

在这个时代，事实往往让位于那些由世界最具影响力人物讲述的精彩故事。

We're in the era of don't let the facts get away of a good story with some of the most powerful people in the world.

这并不是单一的。

And it's not one.

而是众多的。

It's many of them.

对吧？

Right?

我在科技行业每天都看到这种情况。

I see it in the technology industry every day.

因此，我很好奇，对于那些一方面在对抗这种宣传、另一方面又不得不面对信任度下降甚至影响力下降的新闻机构来说，有什么应对之道或解决方案吗？

And so I I wonder for what's the prescription or recipe for news organizations, right, that are on one hand fighting that propaganda, but also, you know, have to face the reality of declining trust and, you know, even declining visibility?

我也想回到大语言模型的话题，但这个问题已经够长了。

And wanna get back to LLMs too, but that's a long enough question.

所以

So

我觉得你听进去了。

I think you you listen.

你一针见血。

You you hit the nail on the head.

这是一个巨大的问题，对某些商业模式来说尤其如此。

It's a massive problem, massive problem for for some business models.

但我觉得你必须做的是，像你现在做的、我们正在做的那样。

But I think what you have to do is you have to do what you're doing, what we're doing.

你必须加强与消费者的联系。

You have to tighten your relationship with with the consumer.

你必须与内容消费者建立这种信任关系。

Like, you have to have this this relationship of trust between you and the people consuming your content.

要实现这一点，你必须提供独具特色的内容。

And to deliver that, you have to have distinctive content.

你需要有独特的记者，提供机器无法提供的、竞争对手也无法提供的内容。

You have to have distinctive reporters providing things that no machine can provide and that their competition can't provide.

我认为接下来会发生的是，你和我花了大量时间思考：十八个月后的世界会是什么样子？

And what I think will happen like, you and I spent a lot of our time thinking, does the world look like in eighteen months?

从新闻的角度来看，我认为，如果你拥有像你们这样、像我们这样围绕特定受众的专业化公司，我坚信，在新的秩序下，这类内容的价值将是今天的五到十倍，因为其他所有人都将能轻易获取任何主题的通用高质量信息。

From a news perspective, I think that if you have a company like yours, a company like ours that are built around expertise for very distinct audiences, I firmly believe that that content is gonna be worth five or 10 x in the new world order what it is today because everyone else is gonna have equal access to general high quality information at their fingertips on almost any topic.

大型语言模型和用户愿意为之付费的，是人类的细微差别、专业能力、经验、分析和洞察力——这些来自长期关注这些话题、并亲自与人交流的人。

What the LLMs and what the individuals will pay for is human nuance, human expertise, human experience, analysis, and insight that is distinct from people who've been looking at these topics, talking to the people person to person.

我认为，这种价值会大幅提升。

I think that soars in value.

所以，如果你是你们，或者是我们，我会感觉很好。

So if you're you or us, I feel good.

如果你在生产通用的、同质化的内容，我过去十年一直这么认为，今天我更强烈地觉得，你完蛋了。

If you're producing generic commoditized content, I felt this way for the last ten years, I feel it more powerfully today, you're screwed.

将不会有市场。

There's not gonna be a market.

黄色网页是

Yellow web is

掉进了垃圾陷阱。

out the, the crap trap.

所以这个是

So this was this

知道是谁

Know who

会这么做。

would have done it.

人们可以在这里看到。

People can see here.

但九年前，吉姆在《信息》报上发表了一篇评论文章，这可能是我们最早的评论文章之一，指出数字媒体公司陷入了垃圾陷阱，大量生产低俗的点击诱饵，以声称拥有庞大的受众和更高的估值。

But nine years ago, Jim wrote in an op ed for The Information, probably one of our first op eds, that digital media companies are caught in the crap trap, mass producing trashy clickbait so they can claim huge audiences and higher valuations.

我认为你指出了这一点，而我当时不得不承认，这在很大程度上还是一个社交媒体的故事。

And I think you call it and I had to you know, this was largely a social media story at the time.

对吧？

Right?

社交媒体公司当时是唯一的分发渠道。

The social media companies were the the distribution channels du jour.

所以，无论如何，我们都应该去看看，我们可以提供链接。

And so, anyway, we everyone should check it out, and we can link to it.

但至少可以说，你当时预见到这一点，而且你还准确地捕捉到了视频的崛起，你看，现在就是这样。

But it it was prescient to say the least, and you also nailed the rise of video, which, you know, here we are.

所以，这件事已经发生了。

So, that's happened.

但我忍不住想，我完全同意你所说的每一点。

But I wonder I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying.

我的意思是，我一直在思考，或者说是被一个现象所触动：获取真相并完成记者工作，成本正在不断上升。

I mean, one thing I've been toying with in my brain is or or just struck by the rising cost of getting to the truth and doing what journalists do.

你谈到了专业化会带来价值。

You talked about how, you know, there will be value in being specialized.

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

我认为，无论是因为信息如此晦涩、宣传如此泛滥，如果你调查40位顶级媒体的编辑，40人都会说他们的法律预算正在显著增加。

I think, you know, whether it's just the fact that there's so much obfuscation, so much propaganda, You know, if you survey 40 editors at top publications, 40 will say their legal budgets are significant are significantly increasing.

你知道，话题变得越来越复杂，因此你需要的记者也更加专业化。

You know, the topics are getting more complicated, so the level of reporters you need is more specialized.

我想知道你对此有何看法？这是否会影响未来五年谁胜谁负？

I I wonder what you think of that, and does it play into who wins and loses over the next five years?

嗯，我对成本问题的看法有所不同。

Well, I think about the cost thing differently.

我同意你的观点。

I agree with you.

我同意法律成本可能会上升，而且我认为人才成本也在上升。

I agree legal costs probably go up, and I and I think the cost of talent goes up.

我认为其他所有方面的成本都会急剧下降。

I think the cost of everything else drops precipitously.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们

We're

正在做

doing the

解决方案，所有这些。

solution, all that.

一切。

Everything.

听好了。

Like, listen.

我们不是一家科技公司。

Like, we're not a technology company.

我们也不一定是一家营销公司。

We're not necessarily a marketing company.

就像我身后所有创作内容、而你正在消费的那些东西，都可以实现自动化，我认为在不久的将来一定会实现自动化。

Like, all of the stuff that sits behind me creating content and you consuming that content, all of that can be automated, and I think will be automated in in the not too distant future.

这大大降低了我们的成本结构。

That takes down a massive part of our cost structure.

我敢肯定，如果你看看我的预算，再看看你的，我们会把相似比例的预算分配给人才，因为我们是靠人才驱动的。

I'm sure if you looked at my budget, I looked at yours, we allocate a similar percentage to talent because we're talent based

很多。

A lot.

组织。

Organization.

那将是哦。

That would be the oh.

是的。

Yeah.

但你想压缩另一侧的开支，以便把钱投入到其他地方。

But you wanna squeeze that other side so you can put the money in the other place.

所以我认为，这远远超过了平衡。

So I think that they I think it more than evens out.

我认为这些会成为更好的企业，能够以更高的利润率运营。

I think these become better businesses that you can run on better margins.

但是

But

它们真的会针对那些真正渴望并需要高质量内容的特定人群，而这样的人并不占多数。

they are really going to very specific people who have, like, a real desire and demand for high quality content, which isn't most people.

比如，它无法解决宣传问题。

Like, it's not gonna fix a propaganda problem.

它也无法解决操纵问题。

It's not gonna fix a manipulation problem.

你知道，我也知道，这个问题在十八个月后会比现在严重十倍。

And you know and I know that problem is gonna be 10 times as bad eighteen months from now as it is now.

每一项新技术，即使最终走向美好的结局，我们都将经历一段炼狱。

Every new technology, even if it ends up in a beautiful place, we're gonna go through hell.

比如，那种认为人工智能会带来天堂、我们所有人都能待在家里不用工作的说法，认为我们会学习诗歌，也许十年后是真的。

Like, this spin that the idea that AI is just gonna be nirvana, we're all gonna be sitting home not having to work, we're learning poetry might be true ten years from now.

但在短期内，这完全是胡说八道。

It's bullshit in in the short term.

它会给工作带来真正的痛苦，也会给转化带来真正的痛苦。

It's gonna have real pain for jobs, and it's gonna have real pain in conversion.

大多数人一旦获得新技术，就会用它来作恶，外国势力也会用它来作恶。

And the most humans, when they get a new technology, use it for perversion, and foreign actors use it for perversion.

所以我们必须面对所有这些问题。

And so we're gonna have to grapple with all that.

我相信，在这一切之后，它可能会变得宏大而美好，但其间必然会经历巨大的动荡。

I believe on the other side of it, it could be big, could be beautiful, but there's gonna be real tumult in between there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以最后一个问题是。

So last question.

你是一家新闻机构。

You're a news org.

就像信息平台Axios一样，你们看到了这列AI列车正在驶来。

Like the informationer Axios, you see this AI train coming.

你们会怎么做？

What do you do?

我的意思是，我认为我们所做的就是像你们一样，提前做好准备。

I mean, I think what we've done is we try to get ahead of it, like you.

比如，我们了解这些公司。

Like, we know these companies.

我们了解这些原则。

We know the principles.

所以一年前，我基本上对我们的团队做了一次演讲，我说：我知道你们对AI感到担忧。

And so we've really a year ago, I basically I had a speech to our staff, and I said, I know you're worried about AI.

我知道你们觉得AI会抢走你们的工作。

I know you think it's gonna take your job.

从今天起，我根本不关心。

From this day henceforth, I don't give a shit.

我会尽最大努力帮助你们掌握工具。

Like, I'm gonna equip you as best

吉姆，拿上你的要点，看看它们能走多远。

Take I your talking points, Jim, and just see how they fly

我告诉所有首席执行官，他们都应该这么做。

I tell all CEOs they should do this.

人们不愿意谈论这个，但你就直接告诉你的团队：听着。

People don't wanna talk about it, but just tell your people, like, listen.

如果你不能把AI或其他技术变成你工作的倍增器，并且立刻行动的话。

If you can't take AI in any technology and make it a force multiplier of the work that you do and do it right away.

它不只是在这里。

It not just here.

你在哪里都找不到工作了。

You're not gonna have a job anywhere.

所以我说，这就是现实。

And so what I said is, that's the reality.

我们给每个人免费提供了使用OpenAI工业版的权限，想用多少就用多少。

We gave everybody a free license to use OpenAI as much as they wanna be able to use it, the industrial version.

然后我们说，听着。

And then we said, listen.

我希望你们每天抽出10%的时间，专门研究如何用它来完成你们的具体工作。

I want you to spend 10% of your day just figuring out how to use it to do the specific work you do.

当你取得成果时，要与这里做同样工作的人分享。

When you have a win, share that with other people here that do the job that you do.

这样，我们至少可以努力在这件事的另一端，处于最有利的位置。

And then together, we can at least try to come out in in the best possible position on the other side of it.

我认为，每家公司都该这么做。

And I think that's what every company should be doing.

这当然是我假设你们正在做的。

It's certainly what I assume you're doing.

这正是我们正在做的。

It's what we're doing.

但这并不意味着不会令人害怕。

And that doesn't mean it's not gonna be scary.

这并不意味着不会改变工作的本质。

It doesn't mean it's not gonna change the nature of work.

它会的。

It will.

这并不意味着不会消除一些工作。

It doesn't mean it's not going to eliminate some jobs.

它会的。

It will.

但我认为你们能做的最明智的事就是睁大眼睛看清现实。

But I think the smartest thing you could do is be eyes wide open.

一旦你认为可以利用它，就立刻去利用。

The minute you think you can utilize it, utilize it.

最终，我认为它在后台是有帮助的。

And ultimately, I think it helps on the back end.

我认为，眼下这些公司投资用人工智能生产面向消费者的实际内容，是个愚蠢的赌注。

The stupid bet being made right now, I think, is like all these companies investing in producing actual content for the consumer using artificial intelligence.

你的大语言模型垃圾输出一些东西给消费者，也许短期能奏效。

Like, your LLM garbage spitting out something to the consumer might work in the short term, maybe.

我不认为它能行得通。

I don't think it will.

但未来，那种靠内置某些AI技术生成的视频，不会有什么用处。

But it's not gonna be useful in the future in, like, video made up because you have, like, some AI techniques built into it.

我只是看不出这有什么价值，因为机器总是比任何媒体公司都做得更好。

I I just don't see how that's gonna have value because the machines are always gonna do it better than any media company can.

弄清楚你做什么是别人做不到的，是任何机器人无法替代的。

Figure out what do you do better than anyone else that no robot can do.

如果你做得比任何人都好，你就能够提取价值。

And if you do it better than anyone else, you will be able to extract value.

你已经做到了。

You've done it.

我们已经做到了。

We've done it.

其他人也会做到。

Others will do it.

它会有所不同。

It'll be different.

它不会看起来像过去的媒体格局，但无所谓。

It's not gonna look like the media landscape of the past, but whatever.

这就是生活。

That's life.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我非常喜欢。

Well, I love it.

我还想补充一点，我认为出版商必须坚持自己的立场，认识到在我看来，目前将这些内容授权给大语言模型还不存在真正的收益，原因也是如此。

And I'll just add too that I think publishers have to hold their own ground and recognize that there, in my opinion, aren't really yet benefits to licensing these content to the LLMs for the same reason.

目前还没有什么产品能让你说，足以证明与之合作所带来的分发、资金、增长和影响力是合理的。

There aren't the products that, you know, you can even say would justify the distribution and the money and the growth and the reach from partnering.

所以

So

这一点我们可能有不同意见，因为我们已经和OpenAI达成了协议。

That one, we might disagree because we have we've done a deal with OpenAI.

我认为这取决于经济因素。

I think it depends on the economics.

要清楚对方公司想从中获得什么。

Just know what the other company is trying to get out of it.

根据你对未来的预期，这些经济回报对你来说足够好吗？

Are the economics good enough for you based on what you think the future will hold?

我认为我在哲学上通常和你持相同观点，因为我觉得媒体公司做过的最愚蠢的事之一，就是把自己的未来绑定在社交媒体公司身上，与它们签订内容、视频或节目合作的协议。

I think I'm right with you you I'm with you usually philosophically on this because I think one of the dumbest things that media companies did was tether their future to social media companies, giving them deals to do content deals or video or shows.

这简直就是毁灭。

I mean, was destruction.

BuzzFeed 新闻已经不复存在了。

BuzzFeed News doesn't exist.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们浪费了，没错。

I mean, I it was like, we wasted Yeah.

A

A

是的。

Yeah.

没有其他公司，也没有其他行业会把自己的命运交给第三方的善意。

No other company, no other industry would outsource their destiny to a third party's benevolence.

这太蠢了。

That's that's that's stupid.

你不能这么做。

You can't do that.

是的。

And Yeah.

我认为人们必须思考这一点。

And I think that's where people have to be thinking about it.

如果这笔交易在经济上很划算，而且你认为它能带来长期回报，那就去做。

If the deal's great economically and you think it pays off over time, do it.

但也要明白，我们还不知道它需要什么。

But also understand that we don't know what it needs yet.

我们不知道，如果没有这笔交易，是否能让你更好地通过大语言模型提供独特内容，或者置身其外。

We don't know if they if having no deal puts you in a better position to be able to provide distinctive content through an LLM or sit outside of it.

我必须告诉你，吉姆，坐在这里的硅谷，和这些公司交谈，这些人工智能公司自己也不知道未来会变成什么样。

And I just got to tell you, Jim, sitting out here in the valley and talking to these companies, they don't know what they're going to be yet, these AI companies.

他们是研究实验室吗？

Are they research labs?

他们是产品团队吗？

Are they product orgs?

他们是订阅模式的公司吗？

Are they in the subscription business?

他们是广告业务的公司吗？

Are they in the advertising business?

他们是搜索2.0吗？

Are they search two point zero?

他们是其他类型的公司吗？

Are they something else?

所以，对出版商们来说，这是一个提醒。

So a caution to publishers, shall we say.

但吉姆，和你交谈总是很愉快。

But Jim, it's always a pleasure.

我们得经常这么做。

We've got to do this more.

感谢您的参与，大家都应该去看看Axios，那里您本周更详细地阐述了这些观点。

Thanks for joining us, and everyone should check out Axios to see where you wrote more extensively about these thoughts this week.

太棒了。

Awesome.

恭喜您取得的所有成功，节日快乐。

And congrats on all your success and happy holidays.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好的。

Okay.

本周，YouTube宣布从2029年开始直播奥斯卡颁奖典礼，引发了巨大关注。

YouTube made big news this week with its announcement it will stream the Oscars starting in 2029.

此外，相关但略有不同的是，TikTok今晚在美国举办其首届TikTok奖项颁奖典礼，该活动将在TikTok平台以及Tubi上直播，以进一步探讨更广泛的媒体格局。

And on a slightly different but related note, TikTok is hosting its first TikTok awards in The US tonight, which is being streamed on the platform and also on Tubi to talk more about the media landscape at large.

我想请Tubi的首席执行官安贾莉·苏德上场。

I wanna bring on Anjali Sud, CEO of Tubi.

安贾莉，欢迎再次来到节目。

Anjali, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你在这里。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢你，阿卡什。

Thank you, Akash.

再次来到这里感觉真好。

It's good to be here again.

我想和你聊聊现在的媒体行业，因为现在真是个疯狂的时期。

So I want to talk to you a little bit about media right now because it's kind of a crazy time.

在背景中，华纳兄弟、派拉蒙和奈飞的纷争仍在持续上演。

And in the background, we've got the Warner Brothers Paramount Netflix saga, which is continuing to play out.

我觉得没人能猜到这一切最终会如何收场。

I think it's anyone's guess as to where this all ends up.

但我想先问你的是，你觉得这种整合最终会对制作的内容、电影和电视剧产生什么影响？

But the question I wanna start with you is, I mean, what impact do you think this consolidation will end up having on the content and the films and the TVs that will end up being produced in the end?

嗯。

Yeah.

这确实是一个引人入胜的故事。

Well, it is certainly a fascinating saga.

我认为，如今媒体行业中的整合是自然、合理且可预期的。

And I think ultimately consolidation is natural and appropriate and expected in the media industry right now.

消费者的需求正在变化，我们必须做出调整。

Consumer needs are evolving and we have to adapt.

我认为2B看待这个问题的方式是，我们拥有非常多元且多样化的内容库。

I think the way 2B looks at it, we have a very diverse and diversified, collection of content.

我们与创作者合作，包括世界上一些最受欢迎的创作者。

We work with creators, some of the world's most popular creators.

我们与好莱坞合作。

We work with Hollywood.

我们与独立电影制作人合作。

We work with independent filmmakers.

我们预计，未来会有更多故事和更多创作者呈现在我们的观众面前。

And we expect that there will be even more stories and more storytellers that we will be putting in front of our audience in the future.

因此，整合当然会带来一些影响，但我认为这里真正的故事并不是谁收购了谁。

So certainly there will be implications from consolidation, but I actually think the real story here isn't who buys who.

而是随着社交媒体、创作者经济与好莱坞的融合，流媒体的未来将如何演变。

It's how is, the future of streaming going to evolve as we see this convergence between social and the creator economy and Hollywood.

你提到了YouTube，YouTube现在也有奥斯卡奖了。

You mentioned YouTube, you YouTube's got the Oscars.

我认为Instagram现在也在电视上投放竖屏视频。

I think Instagram is is now putting vertical videos on TV.

电视正在直播TikTok颁奖典礼。

You've got TV streaming the TikTok awards.

我们正在见证这种融合。

We are seeing this convergence.

我认为这将迫使我们所有人思考：如何在下一代所在的地方满足他们的需求。

And I think it's really gonna force all of us to think about how are we meeting the next generation where they are.

所以，我想先谈这些，但跟我坦白说吧。

So, so I want to get to all that, but level with me here.

我的意思是，你认为这种整合对电影制作人来说是好事吗？

I mean, do you think this consolidation is good for filmmakers?

我认为玩家会变少，但总体趋势我认为不会改变。

I think there's going to be fewer players, but the general trends, I don't think change here.

归根结底，真正的趋势是我们正处于一个注意力经济时代，大家都在争夺人们的注意力。

At the end of the day, the real trend is that we are in an attention economy and there's a battle for everyone's mindshare.

我认为，随着人工智能和其他趋势的发展，你会看到越来越多的故事和创作者涌现出来。

And there will be, I think, with AI and other trends, you're going to see just more stories and storytellers that are out there.

对我来说，对电影制作人而言，问题是：你如何帮助每一位内容创作者和每一个故事找到他们的观众？

And for me, I think the question for filmmakers is how do you help every content creator and every story find its audience?

因此，我实际上认为像Tubi这样的平台正面临强劲的顺风，它们非常擅长将广泛多样的内容推送给合适观众的合适时机，让这些故事能够找到自己的受众。

And so I actually think there's a real tailwind for platforms like Tubi that are, really good at taking a broad set of different kinds of content and put it in front of the right viewer at the right time so that those stories can find their audience.

对我来说，这股顺风将持续下去，不只是这个月或这个季度，而是未来几年。

Like to me, that's the tailwind that I think will carry forward, not just this month or this quarter, but for the next few years.

没错。

Right.

你提到了人工智能。

Now you mentioned AI.

自从我们上次交谈以来，发生的另一桩交易是迪士尼对OpenAI的投资。

The other deal that has happened since we last spoke is the Disney OpenAI investment.

你对这笔交易怎么看？

What did you make of that deal?

我并不感到意外。

I'm not surprised.

我认为你会看到越来越多这样的合作。

I think you're going to see more and more of these kinds of partnerships.

我认为，归根结底，如果以正确且负责任的方式使用人工智能，它有机会让叙事更加民主化，增强创造力。

And I think ultimately it's because there is an opportunity for AI, if used in the right way and responsibly, to democratize storytelling, to enhance creativity.

对。

Right.

我认为，媒体公司的职责在于愿意尝试，并去弄清楚这一点。

It is the job, I think, of media companies to be willing to experiment and to be willing to figure that out.

我可以告诉你，在Tubi，我们正在用AI做很多事情来

And I can tell you at Tubi, we are doing a lot of things using AI to

你们平台上有没有AI制作的电影内容？

Do you have AI content on AI films on your platform?

我们没有。

We don't.

我们还没有。

We don't yet.

好的。

Okay.

但我可以告诉你，我们确实用AI做了很多其他事情，比如帮助你找到想看的内容。

But I would tell you, we do use AI for a lot of other things like figuring out how to help you find what to watch.

你知道吗，一个最惊人的数据是，平均每个美国人每天晚上找要看的内容都要花十分钟以上。

You know, one of the craziest stats is that the average American takes more than ten minutes to find what to watch every night.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我花的时间比那还长。

I take I take longer than that.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我也是。

I think I do too.

想想当你打开抖音或Instagram时，如果几秒钟内没看到有趣的内容，你就会划走。

Think about how when you open up TikTok or Instagram, if you don't get something interesting within seconds, you bounce.

所以我认为AI在这里有很大的机会。

And so I think there's a huge opportunity for AI there.

我认为，在广告领域，帮助更多品牌创建可以投放到电视上的内容，是另一个巨大的机遇。

I think with advertising and helping more brands create content that they can put ads on on, on TV is is another big area of opportunity.

然后我相信，人工智能会让这变得更容易。

And then I do believe that AI will make it easier.

它将降低高质量制作的成本并提高效率。

It'll lower the costs and increase the speed for high quality production.

如果我们以正确的方式应对这一转型，这对行业来说可能是件好事。

And that can be a good thing for the industry if we sort of navigate that transformation in the right way.

我问你一个问题。

Let me ask you this.

你会不会和OpenAI做某种合作？

Would you ever do a deal of some kind with OpenAI?

我的意思是，我不知道这样的合作会是什么样子。

I mean, you know, I don't know what such a deal would look like.

我猜可能是类似这样：我们向你们的电影制作人提供访问权限。

I imagine it could be something around, Hey, you know, we give access to maybe our filmmakers.