中国摆脱英伟达，AWS re:Invent 2025，2025礼物指南 | 2025年12月1日

欢迎各位收看Information的TI TV。

Welcome everyone to the Information's TI TV.

我叫阿卡什·佩斯里查。

My name is Akash Pesritcha.

今天是12月1日，星期一。

It is Monday, December 1.

今天我们为大家带来了一群明星记者和嘉宾。

We have got an all star lineup of reporters and guests for you today.

首先，我们将深入探讨今天关于AWS的专题报道，由我们的企业软件记者带来。

First up, we are digging into today's feature story on AWS with our enterprise software reporter.

接着，我们将讨论中美芯片战争格局的演变。

We're then turning to a conversation on the shifting landscape in The US China chip war.

最后，由于现在正式进入假日季节，我们将从政策和基础设施转向产品，通过我们的焦点和2025年假日礼品指南，展现塑造我们日常生活的商品。

And finally, because it is officially the holiday season, we are shifting gears from policy and infrastructure to the products, shaping our everyday lives with our spotlight and our 2025 holiday gift guide.

今天，我们将为您介绍榜单上 standout 礼品背后的三位创始人。

Today, we're bringing you three founders behind the standout gifts on our list.

它们涵盖桌游、航班应用和服装。

They span board games, flight apps, and apparel.

这将是一场非常繁忙的节目。

It's going to be a busy, busy show.

那么，让我们直接进入正题。

And so let's get right on into things.

本周科技活动密集，亚马逊云科技Reinvent大会正在拉斯维加斯举行。

It's a busy week for tech events, and Amazon Web Services Reinvent Conference is taking the stage in Las Vegas.

我们自己的企业软件记者凯文·麦克拉伦在周日简报中称其为云计算的超级碗，他今天发布了一篇新文章，详细介绍了AWS的亮点。

Our very own Kevin McLaughlin, who covers enterprise software, in his Sunday briefing called it the Super Bowl of Cloud Computing, and he has a new story out today with details on what to expect from AWS.

我想请他来跟我们分享更多他的看法。

I want to bring him on to tell us more about what he is thinking about.

凯文，欢迎来到TI TV。

Kevin, welcome to TI TV.

很高兴你再次回来。

It's great to have you back on.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我们来谈谈 re:Invent 吧。

So let's talk about re:Invent.

这周我们能从这次大会上期待些什么？

What can we expect this week from the conference?

嗯，这确实是云计算的超级碗。

Well, it really is kind of the Super Bowl of cloud computing.

我的意思是，没有中场秀，这是唯一的不同。

I mean, there's no halftime show, so that's the only difference.

但每个软件供应商和初创公司都会来到拉斯维加斯的展览厅展示他们的产品。

But it is a every software vendor startup, comes to pitch their wares on the Expo Hall Floor in Las Vegas.

这同时也是许多客户交流的好机会。

It's also a chance for, a lot of customer conversations to happen as well.

所以这是一场大型的销售活动。

So it's a big sales event.

这是一场客户大会。

It's a customer conference.

没错。

Right.

而且这也是亚马逊发布年度重大新品的地方，而如今这些新品都围绕着人工智能。

And it's also where Amazon announces their new their big new stuff for the year, which these days is all about AI.

那么，你的消息来源告诉你，这周他们会发布什么新东西？

And so what are your sources telling you that they are going to debut this week?

我们今天早上报道过，本周可能会推出一款新的Nova模型。

We reported this morning there is a new Nova model potentially being talked about this week.

与去年不同的是，去年他们推出了Nova系列。

The big difference, there was a new Nova model last year, and that was where they launched Nova line.

但今年最大的不同是，这是一款一体化模型，能够处理和分析视频、图像、语音和文本。

But the big difference this year is that this is an all in one model that can handle and process video, images, speech, and text.

这意味着它更直接地与谷歌Gemini和OpenAI的模型竞争。

And what that means is that it's more of a direct competitor to models like Google Gemini and OpenAI.

所以这绝对是亚马逊之前产品的重大升级。

So this is definitely a big step up from what Amazon had before.

不过，客户会如何使用它，以及会有多少客户真正采用它，还有待观察。

It remains to be seen though, whether how customers are using it or how many customers will actually adopt it.

我想稍后谈谈 AWS 的发展趋势，但我们之前已经邀请过 AWS 的高管做客节目。

And I want to talk about the trajectory of AWS here in a second, but we've had AWS executives on the show before.

他们当时谈了很多关于 Bedrock 的内容。

They talked a lot about Bedrock.

那么 Nova 和 Bedrock 之间有什么区别呢？让我们搞清楚一下。

What's the difference here between Nova and Bedrock, just so we understand?

Nova 通过 Bedrock 销售，作为一系列第三方模型的一部分，尤其是 Anthropic，这是他们主打的模型之一，此外还有 Meta、Cohere 和其他几家。

Well, Nova is sold through Bedrock as part of a collection of other models from third parties, especially Anthropic, which is one of the main ones they lead with, but also Meta, Cohere, and several others.

所以 Bedrock 是 AWS 主要的 AI 服务。

So Bedrock is the main AWS AI service.

明白了。

Got it.

明白了。

Got it.

Nova 就是其中的一部分。

And Nova fits into that.

好的。

Okay.

我想谈谈 AWS 在人工智能方面的整体发展轨迹。

Well, I want to talk a little bit about AWS' trajectory with AI overall.

我认为普遍认为他们在这一领域已经落后，逐渐被边缘化了。

I think consensus is that they have lagged and fallen out of the conversation a bit.

你能简单介绍一下为什么会这样，以及他们面临哪些真正的挑战吗？

Can you walk us a little bit through the history of why that is the case, and where they face challenges, really?

当然。

Sure.

我认为这种看法很大程度上源于 AWS 在市场份额、覆盖范围以及几乎所有其他指标上仍然是云领域的王者。

I think a lot of this perception comes from the fact that AWS is still very much king of the cloud in terms of market share and reach and basically every other metric.

所以，AI是亚马逊第一次处于被动地位。

So AI has been the first time where Amazon has been sort of on its back foot.

我的意思是，在传统的机器学习时代，亚马逊和AWS是最早提供云服务，让企业能够用来开发AI应用的公司之一。

And what I mean by that is in the old world of machine learning, Amazon was, AWS was one of the first to actually offer a cloud service that companies could use to work and build AI applications.

因此，他们并没有错过这波浪潮，也没有在这方面落后。

So it wasn't like they missed the boat or were late on that front.

但当ChatGPT三年前问世时，人们开始意识到，也许他们并不是这里的领导者。

But when ChatGepti arrived three years ago, that was when things started to become apparent that, hey, maybe they are not the leaders here.

AWS错失了早期与OpenAI和Anthropic建立紧密合作关系的机会，而这些机会本可以改变今天的格局。

And AWS passed on early opportunities to forge close relationships with OpenAI and Anthropic, which could have changed the current state of play today.

当然，亚马逊最终还是投资了80亿美元给Anthropic，并与之建立了非常紧密的关系。

And of course, Amazon eventually did invest $8,000,000,000 in Anthropic and has a very close relationship with them.

所以他们确实有故事可讲，并非完全错失良机，但外界的普遍印象仍是他们落后于OpenAI、谷歌和Anthropic。

So they do have a story to tell, and it's not like they're completely missing the boat, the perception is still that they're behind OpenAI and Google and Anthropic.

你对Reinvent大会还有什么期待？

What else are you expecting from Reinvent?

你提到了Nova。

You talked about Nova.

那芯片和一些其代理产品呢？

What about the chips and some of its agents' products?

是的，今年夏天推出了一款名为Bedrock Agent Core的产品。

Yeah, so we have, there was a product launched this summer called Bedrock Agent Core.

Bedrock在两年前（两年前以上）推出时，就附带了一些代理构建工具。

And this was an attempt, Bedrock initially had some agent building tools with it when it launched two years ago, over two years ago.

但据我了解，这些工具并没有被广泛使用。

But they were not, my understanding is they were not widely used.

因此，亚马逊今年夏天推出了名为Bedrock Agent Core的服务。

So Amazon launched this service this summer called Bedrock Agent Core.

这为企业构建代理提供了一种更简便的方式。

And it's basically a way for enterprises to build agents, and it's a little bit more sort of easier for them to do so.

这款产品在上线的几个月里获得了大量正面评价。

And the product has gotten a lot of positive buzz in the few months that it's been available.

因此，我们可以在 re:Invent 大会上看到一些客户证言，或许还会有一些新功能发布等等。

So we can expect to see customers testimonials at re:Invent, perhaps some new features and things like that.

另一方面，我们有 Trainium，这是亚马逊的定制芯片。

And then on the other hand, we have Trainium, which is Amazon's custom chips.

对。

Right.

据预期，他们去年在 re:Invent 上谈到了 Trainium 的第三代产品。

Where expected they they talked about Trainium three, the third version last year at re:Invent.

因此，我们应该会看到一些客户证言，讲述他们如何使用这些芯片。

So we should expect to see some customer testimonials about how they're using those chips.

我认为亚马逊有必要谈论 Trainium，因为这是他们对标谷歌 TPU AI 芯片的产品。

And I think it's really important for Amazon to talk about Tranium because that is their counterpart to the Google TPU AI chips.

说到这一点，上周我们在这档节目中已经多次谈到谷歌的 TPU 正在获得越来越多的市场认可。

And on that note, we've talked a lot on this show last week about the traction that the TPUs are getting for Google.

你认为 Trainium 会获得同样的市场反响吗？

Do you anticipate that Traneum is going to get the same type of traction?

这里是否存在技术差异，仍可能使其落后于TPU？

Is there technical differences here that could still put it behind TPUs?

你如何看待这场对话的发展？

How do you see that conversation unfolding?

现在说还为时过早。

It's really too early to say.

亚马逊刚刚推出了Project Rainier，这是一台由亚马逊与Anthropic共同打造的超级计算机，首发时包含了50万个Trainium芯片。

Amazon just launched Project Rainier, which is a giant supercomputer that they built in conjunction with Anthropic that includes 500,000 Tranium chips when it launched.

亚马逊表示，预计Anthropic到今年年底（距今四周）将把使用量扩大到一百万个以上。

Amazon said that it expects Anthropic to scale that usage to more than a million by the end of the year, which is four weeks away.

因此，Anthropic无疑将成为Trainium三号的重磅客户。

So surely Anthropic is gonna be a very big customer of Trainium three.

但就使用情况和其扩展方式而言，我觉得目前还很难判断。

But in terms of like the usage and how that's going to scale, I think it's sort of hard to say at this point.

我不愿做出猜测。

I wouldn't want to venture a guess.

我知道第一代Trainium存在一些问题，导致许多客户无法使用。

I do know that the first version of Trainium had some glitches that prevented many customers from using it.

Trainium二代修复了大量这些问题，而在优化产品缺陷方面，没有哪家公司比AWS更擅长迭代了。

Trainium two fixed a lot of those issues, and no one iterates better than AWS in terms of working out the kinks with products.

因此，我们可以预期Trainium三代将拥有更多客户，甚至可能带来一些令人惊讶的新客户。

So we can expect to see Trainium three probably having more customers and perhaps even some surprising new customers.

对。

Right.

现在，你提到了AWS（亚马逊）对Anthropic投资的80亿美元，显然他们在很大程度上依赖Anthropic来进行这些AI产品的大量实验和开发。

Now, you talked about the $8,000,000,000 that AWS, Amazon, has invested in Anthropic, and obviously they are leaning on them heavily for a lot of their experimentation and development with these AI products.

总体来看，这种合作关系进展如何？

How is that relationship faring overall?

据我所知，目前关系还算良好。

I think it's still fine as far as I could tell.

就像任何合作关系一样，难免会遇到波折，亚马逊和Anthropic确实经历过这些，就像微软和OpenAI一样。

Like any relationship, there are bumps in the road, certainly Amazon and Anthropic have gone through those, just like Microsoft and OpenAI have gone through.

我认为我的印象是，亚马逊正在与微软签订协议，并最近扩大了与谷歌云的合作。

I think that my impression is that, well, Amazon is signing deals with Microsoft and they're expanding their agreement recently with Google Cloud.

想想Anthropic，就像OpenAI一样，对计算资源有着巨大的需求。

Think Anthropic, just like OpenAI, has an enormous appetite for compute.

因此，这些合作关系和扩展很可能也是由这一需求推动的。

And so those relationships and those expansions are probably being driven by that as well.

不过，我也在想，Anthropic是否希望AWS能像微软在Azure上推广OpenAI那样更 prominently 地推广它。

I also, I wonder though, if Anthropic wanted AWS to feature it more the way that Microsoft features OpenAI and Azure.

我没有任何报道能证实这一点，但我在一些对话中确实有这种直觉，即亚马逊非常致力于推广自己的模型——Nova系列，这也没问题。

I don't have any reporting to back that up, but it was this kind of a gut feeling that I had in some of the conversations where Amazon is really intent on promoting its own models, the Nova line, which is fine.

他们投资了这些模型，并希望拥有一个自有模型，以证明自己真正参与了AI领域的竞争。

They invested in those and they want want to have a first party model to show that they're actually in the game in AI.

但与此同时，如果你是Anthropic，或许你希望它能被更显著地展示出来。

But at the same time, if you're anthropic, maybe you want it to be featured a little bit more prominently.

对。

Right.

好了，凯文，感谢你前来做客。

Well, Kevin, thanks for coming on.

我们非常感谢，很快再和你聊。

We really appreciate it, and we'll talk to you again very soon.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好的。

Okay.

多年来，英伟达在中国的故事一直被与华盛顿的猫鼠游戏所定义，美国的出口管制不断收紧，限制了美国芯片技术在中国的销售范围。

For years, the story of NVIDIA in China has been defined by a cat and mouse game with Washington, with US export controls tightening the leash on what American chip technology could and couldn't be sold in the country.

但《信息》独家最新报道揭示，这一动态已经发生变化，如今中国监管机构成为关注的焦点。

But an exclusive new report from The Information reveals that dynamic has shifted, and now China regulators are now the center of focus.

现在邀请到《信息》的记者坦纳·刘。

Joining me now is Tanner Liu, reporter at The Information.

坦纳，欢迎来到TI TV。

Tanner, welcome to TI TV.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

让我们谈谈你上周末和上周发布的这两份报告。

So let's talk about these pair of reports that you published over the weekend and last week.

谈谈中国最新的举措在推动国产芯片国内普及方面进展如何。

Talk to us a little bit about how China's latest move is faring in terms of how they aim to grow adoption of their chips domestically.

当然。

Sure.

我们看到中国在支持本土AI芯片市场方面力度大幅升级。

We have seen a major escalation in China's effort to support local AI chip markets.

今年8月，我们报道过中国监管机构要求科技公司停止采购英伟达芯片。

In August, we reported that Chinese regulator asked tech companies to stop ordering NVIDIA chips.

现在，他们还禁止公司将其已购买的英伟达芯片用于新建的AI数据中心。

Now they are blocking companies from using the NVIDIA chips they already buy for new AI data centers.

例如，百度今年是英伟达在中国最大的客户，但现在却囤积了一大批无法使用的英伟达芯片。

For example, BaiDance, NVIDIA's biggest Chinese customer this year, is basically sitting on a stockpile of NVIDIA chips it can't use.

因此，这是北京强制与中国以外的AI生态系统彻底脱钩。

So this is Beijing forcing a full breakup from The US AI ecosystem.

他们正在推动企业转向华为、寒武纪、阿里巴巴等国产AI芯片。

They are pushing company onto homegrown AI chips from Huawei's, Capricorns, Alibaba and others.

但目前大多数中国芯片只能处理推理任务，无法进行训练，而训练是一个计算密集型过程，真正用于构建AI模型。

But most Chinese chip currently can only handle inference workload, not training, which is a compute intensive process that actually build AI models.

所以这里面有很多内容我想深入探讨一下。

So there's a lot there that I want to double click on.

我想请你解释一下，在中国国内，这些公司对英伟达构成了多大的竞争压力？

I think one of the pieces I wanted to get your explanation on here is, can you explain to us domestically in China how much competition there is from those players to NVIDIA?

你提到了华为以及其他正在开发技术的公司。

You mentioned Huawei and some of the other companies that are developing their technology.

它们的技术水平如何？

How good is it?

对它的需求有多大？

How much demand is there for it?

它们在哪些方面不足？

Where do they fall short?

谈谈这个。

Talk about that.

当然。

Sure.

监管压力确实迫使科技公司远离英伟达等外国产品，这无疑为本土芯片公司创造了 captive 市场。

The regulatory pressure definitely forces these the regulatory pressure forcing tech companies off foreign trips like Nvidia is definitely creating a captive market for local chip companies.

我们可以从华为开始。

So we can start from Huawei.

它是中国的AI芯片领域的明确领导者。

How it's a clear leader in China's AI chip sector.

他们刚刚公布了一项雄心勃勃的三年路线图，推出三款新型AI芯片，采用国产高内存、高带宽内存和全新架构设计，这基本证实了我们之前关于华为的两篇报道。

They just unveiled an ambitious three years roadmap with three new AI chips using local high memory, high bandwidth memories and a whole new design structure, which is basically confirmed two stories we previously did about Huawei.

但无论华为如何努力，其芯片在单芯片性能上仍弱于英伟达的顶级产品。

But no matter how hard Huawei tried, chips do its chips are still weaker than Nvidia's best offerings in single chip performance.

华为的每款芯片设计，尤其是其旗舰产品昇腾910C，性能仅约为英伟达最先进芯片的三分之一。

Each Huawei's chips designs, especially their flagship Ascent 910C, deliver about one third performance of Nvidia's most cutting edge chips.

因此，他们试图通过规模和数量来弥补，利用先进的互连技术将大量性能较差的芯片组合在一起，扩展到数千甚至上万个芯片组成一个超级节点，最终可能达到百万级芯片的超级集群。

So they are trying to compensate with scales and quantity by throwing massive numbers of these inferior chips together using advanced interconnect technology, scaling up to, you know, like more than 10,000 chips into a single super node, and eventually maybe a million chips in super clusters.

因此，华为的产品在理论上可以匹配或超越英伟达服务器的性能。

So Huawei's offerings can theoretically match or exceeds NVIDIA servers performance.

因为他们把这么多芯片组合在一起。

Because they're putting so many of them together.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，该公司正利用其网络技术优势和中国在供电方面的优势，通过系统级性能来弥补单芯片性能的不足。

So basically, the company's it's leveraging its networking expertise and China's power supply advantage to achieve competitive system level performance to compensate single chip performance limitation.

那么，这与如今在英伟达故事中变得如此重要的H20和H200芯片相比如何？

And how does that how does that compare to, you know, the H H20 and the H200 chips now that have become so relevant to the NVIDIA story?

华为芯片与英伟达在中国市场能销售的芯片相比如何？

How do the Huawei chips compare to what NVIDIA can sell in the country?

对于华为的大多数芯片来说，它们已经在市场上销售了。

So for Huawei's so most Huawei's chips, they can they are on sale in the market.

实际上比英伟达能在中国销售的最顶级芯片H20还要好。

Actually better than the edge 20, which is the best chips NVIDIA can, and it's allowed to sell to China.

但对于其他芯片，比如H200和Blackwell芯片，华为的芯片在单芯片性能上仍然远远落后。

But for the rest of the chips like edge 200 and blood wild chips, Huawei's chip is still far, far behind in single chip level.

这就是为什么我说他们正在走以数量弥补质量的路线。

That's why I say they were trying to compensate to go with this quantity over quality route.

没错。

Right.

对于其他公司，总部位于北京的寒武纪是另一个关键玩家。

And for these other companies, Beijing based Cambrecon is another key player.

它的股价已经说明了一切。

Its stock already tells the story.

过去三个月里，其股价飙升了100%以上，因为中国投资者正大力押注中国技术自主自立的推进。

Its stock surged over 100% in the past three months as the Chinese investors are betting heavily on China's technology self sufficiency push.

其他科技巨头也在开发自己的芯片。

You have other tech giants developing their own chips.

阿里巴巴和百度都已开始使用自研芯片训练自己的AI模型。

Alibaba and Baidu have both started training their own AI models with their own in house chips.

自今年早些时候起，阿里巴巴就开始部署名为真武的自研芯片，用于小型AI模型。

Alibaba has been deploying their own chips called Zhenwu for smaller AI models since earlier this year.

而百度则正在使用其昆仑芯片测试其旗舰文心AI系统的新型号。

And while Baidu, it's testing new versions of its flagship Ernie AI system using its Kunlun chips.

阿里巴巴的昇腾芯片在内部测试中的表现可与英伟达的S20相媲美。

So Alibaba's Sheng Wu chip can perform as good as Nvidia's S20 in their internal testing.

阿里巴巴还在研发用于AI训练的芯片，其内部测试显示性能已接近英伟达的A100。

Alibaba is also working on a chip for AI training, which in their internal testing can perform close to Nvidia's A100.

A100是英伟达于2020年发布的芯片。

A100 is Nvidia's chip released in 2020.

所以你可以看到，还有其他一些较小的厂商。

So you can and there's other smaller player.

北京也加快了对一些较小厂商的支持，比如摩尔线程和沐曦，以应对出口管制。

Beijing have also fast tracked some smaller players like like more threads and Meta X responds to UX export controls.

你提到了字节跳动和阿里巴巴。

You talked about ByteDance and Alibaba.

他们显然是英伟达的客户，正试图尽可能利用这项技术，但受限于出口管制和国内的监管障碍。

They obviously are customers of NVIDIA, and they're trying to use that technology themselves to the extent they can actually get a get a hold of any of it, given the the export rules and then the the the regulatory hurdles domestically.

但当你与客户方的人交流时，那些参与字节跳动和阿里巴巴、试图获取这些芯片的人，他们是否因无法使用顶级的英伟达芯片来运行自己的AI产品和服务而感到沮丧？

But when you talk to people on the customer side, people involved in ByteDance and Alibaba who are trying to get these chips, are they frustrated that they can't use the best in class NVIDIA chips to operate their own AI products and services?

我会说，当然如此。

I would say certainly yes.

当我们与AI开发者和工程师交谈时，他们确实想要英伟达的芯片。

I would say absolutely when we talk to the AI developers and engineers, they want NVIDIA chips.

客户的偏好非常明确。

The customer's preference, it's crystal clear.

我们只是观察购买行为。

We just look at the buying behaviours.

今年早些时候，阿里巴巴和腾讯等这些大型科技巨头在短短三个月内合计订购了超过一百万片NVIDIA S20芯片。

By chance, Alibaba and Tencent, all these big tech giants together, order more than 1,000,000 Nvidia S20 chips in just three months earlier this year.

这大约相当于四年的供应量。

So roughly a four year supply.

因此，他们只是试图在潜在限制出台前囤积这些芯片。

So they just trying to secure them before potential restriction.

这仅仅是北京创造了一种不同的现实。

It just Beijing create a different reality.

所以我们已经提到了一些本地监管机构实施的限制。

So we already mentioned a few restrictions introduced by local regulators.

所以，你可以获得扣押。

So, you can get the detention.

因此，客户确实需要性能和生态系统。

So, customers want indeed a performance and ecosystem.

但政府实际上是在强制推行国产替代品。

But the government, it's essentially mandating their domestic boots.

我想就你最近文章中提到的这一点问你一下。

I want to ask you about this point here you made in your story recently.

你写道，华盛顿的担忧不仅在于北京将实现半导体自给自足，更在于中国将出口一套完整的替代技术栈，从而削弱美国的影响力。

You wrote that Washington's fear is not just that Beijing will achieve semiconductor self sufficiency, but that China will export an entire alternative technology stack that weakens US leverage.

你能为我们稍微解释一下这个替代技术栈吗？

Can you explain a little bit to us this alternative technology stack?

中国究竟在试图构建什么？美国又为何如此担忧？

What exactly is it that China is trying to build and what is it that The US is so fearful of?

没错。

Right.

我认为，华盛顿的担忧不仅仅局限于中国制造自己的芯片。

So Washington's concern, I would say, goes beyond just China making its own chips.

可以说，中国制造自己的芯片，反而是华盛顿较小的担忧。

Like, I would say China making its own chip may be actually the smaller worry for Washington.

真正的担忧在于，中国不仅会开发芯片，还会构建一个完整的生态系统，包括半导体、服务器、能够在这些中国芯片上高效训练和运行的AI模型、云服务、软件，甚至未来的行业技术标准。

The real fear could be China develops not just chips, but an entire ecosystem, the semiconductors, the servers, the AI models train and can be run efficiently on those Chinese chips, the cloud service, the software, even the technical standards in the future.

然后，中国可以将这个完整的体系出口到世界各地的国家。

And then China can export this complete package to countries around the world.

那么，这为什么重要呢？

So why does it matter?

因为目前，美国的影响力源于这样一个事实：如果你想获得尖端技术，就必须遵守美国的规则。

Because right now, US leverage comes from the fact that if you want cutting edge technology, you have to play by the American rules.

企业需要访问英伟达的GPU、美国的云服务以及美国的AI模型。

Companies need access to Nvidia's GPU to US cloud services to American AI models.

这实际上赋予了华盛顿巨大的地缘政治影响力。

It basically gives Washington enormous geopolitical influence.

但如果中国提供了一个并行的系统，比如华为的芯片驱动着DeepSeg模型，并运行在阿里云的基础设施上。

But if China offers a parallel system, let's say, for example, Huawei's chips powering DeepSeg models running on Alibaba's cloud infrastructure.

那么其他国家就有了第二个选择。

Now other countries have a second choice.

也许它没有美国产品那么先进，但对许多应用来说，可能已经足够好了，比如要求不高的场景。

Maybe it's not as advanced as good as the American ones, but it's probably good enough for many, like inferior applications.

对。

Right.

从客户的角度来看，如果他们能够在国内获得一切，不仅仅是芯片，还有模型、云服务，甚至构建了一个并行的生态系统，那为什么不全部在国内完成呢？

And then from the customers end, you know, if they're able to get everything domestically, not just the chips, but also the models, the cloud services, to the extent that they have built a parallel ecosystem, I mean, why not do everything domestically?

对他们来说，这可能会更容易。

It'd probably be easier for them.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

对于中国来说，他们可以将这套方案出售给其他国家。

And then for China, they can sell these package to other country.

他们可以把这个方案卖给其他国家，也许这些国家愿意接受一个性能足够好、成本却低得多的方案。

They can sell this to other country, maybe they have, they would be willing to accept a good enough package, which is and with much, much cheaper costs.

而且有些情况下，关键的是，它可能附带的条件更少，比如不需要与美国的外交政策保持一致。

And some maybe crucially, it sometimes can come with strings, less strings attached with like alignment with US foreign policy.

所以我会说

So I would say that

那我问你一下。

Let me ask you this then.

如果这是风险，那么这种担忧现在有多合理？风险有多大？

If that is the risk, how how, you know, how valid is that concern right now and how risky is it?

你知道，有没有证据表明中国实际上正在朝着这个平行生态系统迈进？

You know, is there evidence that China actually is marching towards that parallel ecosystem?

我会说，这在全球南方可能已经发生了。

I would say this is already happening maybe in Global South.

我们已经可以看到一些中国技术栈在东南亚、非洲和拉丁美洲的部署。

We can see already some of the Chinese tech stack deploy in Southeast Asia, Africa, Latin America.

我们还可以看到，这些地区越来越多地部署了基础设施，这将改变这些国家和地区使用更便宜的AI技术栈开发AI模型和应用的方式。

And we can see increasingly infrastructure being deployed in those area that will shave different how these countries and district develop their AI models and their applications using a more cheaper AI tech stack.

Shanna，最后一个问题是。

Last question for you, Shanna.

随着事态发展，你最关注哪些方面？

What are you watching for in this story as it develops moving forward?

有很多事情。

Tons of things.

记者叹了口气说：‘天啊，阿卡什，要是我能告诉你全部就好了。’

Reporter says with a sigh, oh my gosh, Akash, if I could tell you everything.

是的。

Yes.

如果我们能花一整天的时间，我可以告诉你很多事。

If we can have like a whole day, I can tell you tons of things.

我认为与中美税率相关的最重要的两点是。

I think the two top things related to The US China tax rate.

第一，我们会密切关注中国公司。

The first, we would try to keep an eye on Chinese companies.

如果中国公司如何，或者中国公司能否

If Chinese companies how or if Chinese companies can

来

come

想出新的规避方法，以绕过美国出口管制，获取先进英伟达芯片或尖端造船设备。

up with new workaround to bypass US export control to get access to advanced Nvidia chips or cutting edge ship making equipment.

其次，我认为我们的亚洲团队也迫切希望了解，正如我们在一些报道中提到的，中国是否拥有足够用于训练AI模型的芯片；如果没有，企业是如何应对训练芯片短缺的——他们是试图在模型层面优化，还是试图获取更多走私芯片，或者在系统层面改进本地替代方案，我们正试图弄清楚他们如何应对这一问题，以便赶上美国竞争对手。

Our Asia secondly, I think our Asia team is also keen to figure out, like we mentioned in some of the story that if China has secure enough chips for training AI models, and if not, how company are tackling the training chip shortage, whether they are trying to improve it on model level or trying to access to more smuggling chips or like try to improve the local alternative on a system level, just trying to figure out how they can tackle an issue like that so that they can catch up with their US competitors.

太好了。

Great.

很好，钱德拉，很高兴你来参加我们的节目。

Well, Chandra, it is great to have you on the show.

我知道现在对你来说已经很晚了，所以我们就不多打扰，让你去休息了。

I know it's late for you, so we will let you get some sleep.

我们期待很快再次邀请你回到节目中。

And we look forward to having you back on the show very soon.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢你，阿卡什。

Thank you, Akash.

很快再聊。

Talk to you soon.

好的。

Okay.

《The Information》发布了2025年假日礼品指南，其中推荐了一些 standout 产品。

The Information released its 2025 holiday gift guide, and it features some standout products.

因此，我们邀请了名单上几位创始人来到节目中，分享他们创业背后的故事。

So we invited a few of the founders from the list to come on the show to share the stories behind their businesses.

首先，来自主编杰西卡·莱森的推荐，她将一款名为《Board》的桌游列入了我们的指南。

First up is a pick from our editor in chief, Jessica Lesson, who added the board game called Board to our guide.

这是一款放在桌面上的数字游戏主机，你与家人面对面玩耍，同时仍使用实体游戏部件，将数字玩法与面对面互动融为一体。

It is a digital gaming console that sits on the table in front of you, you're playing face to face with your family, but it still has physical game pieces merging digital gameplay with in person interaction.

它并不便宜。

It's not cheap.

现在它正在打折，售价为4.99美元，但正常零售价是6.99美元。

It is on sale for $4.99 right now, but it normally retails for $6.99.

我们会聊聊这个。

We're gonna talk about that.

但将这一愿景变为现实的人，深谙融合数字与物理世界之道。

But the person bringing this vision to life knows a thing or two about blending the digital and physical worlds.

布琳·普特南曾打造过Mirror——这是一款互动式家庭健身系统，于2020年被Lululemon收购。

Brynn Putnam previously built Mirror, the interactive at home fitness system acquired by Lou Lemon in 2020.

现在加入我们的是Board的创始人兼首席执行官布琳。

Joining me now is Brynn, the founder and CEO of Board.

布琳，欢迎来到TI TV。

Brynn, welcome to TI TV.

很高兴你来到这里。

It's great to have you here.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

让我们聊聊桌游的生意。

Let's talk the business of board games.

我对这个话题很期待。

I'm excited for this one.

你创建了一家健身公司。

You built a fitness company.

是什么让你想创办一家桌游公司？

What made you want to start a board game company?

其实，这跟我当时的人生阶段有关。

Really, it was where I was in my life.

我在2020年把Mirror卖给了露露柠檬，之后又留了一年在露露柠檬工作。

I sold Mirror to Lululemon in 2020, stayed on for about a year working at Lululemon.

当我退出后，我的个人生活进入了完全不同的阶段。

And then when I exited, I was in really just a different life stage personally.

我现在有两个年幼的孩子，一个两岁，一个九岁，还有三个已经成年的继子女，分别是17岁、19岁和21岁。

I had now two young kids, ages two and nine, as well as three grown step kids, 17, 19, and 21.

我们一家人一直在努力寻找能够增进联系的方式。

And we were just struggling as a family to find ways to connect.

我们要么玩《糖果乐园》这类游戏来照顾最小的孩子，要么尝试和大孩子玩电子游戏，但他们总是轻松赢我们，因为我们都跟不上现代手柄上那么多按钮的操作。

We were either playing games like Candy Land to try to accommodate the littlest kids, or we would try to play video games with the older kids and they would smoke us because none of us could keep up on modern controllers with all the buttons.

所以我觉得，一定有更好的方式能把桌游和电子游戏的优点结合起来，让人们面对面地一起玩。

So it felt like there really had to be a better way to bring the best of board games and video games together and bring people together playing face to face.

这就是Board这款游戏的由来。

And that's how Board was born.

上周感恩节你们玩了吗？

Did you play it at Thanksgiving last week?

玩了。

We did.

Board在感恩节上大受欢迎。

Board got a lot of love at Thanksgiving.

那一定是个非常有趣的感恩节。

That's a that's a that's a big must be a really fun Thanksgiving.

天啊。

Gosh.

所以我想和你聊聊这个游戏本身。

And so I wanna talk to you about the game itself.

你看。

So so look.

它就像一台放在你面前桌上的iPad。

You have it's it's like an iPad that sits on on the table in front of you.

你有实体的棋子。

You got the physical piece.

那么，我可以在棋盘上玩哪些不同类型的游戏呢？

Like, what exactly are the variations of games that I can play on the board?

是的。

Yeah.

它是一个24英寸的屏幕，装在一个精美的木制框架里，放在你的桌子上。

So it's a 24 inch screen in a beautiful wooden frame that sits on your table.

我们花了两年时间教这个框架识别物理棋子。

And what we spent two years doing is teaching the frame how to recognize physical pieces.

如果你使用普通的iPad或平板电脑，它只能识别十个手指。

So if you work with a normal iPad or tablet, it can only recognize 10 fingers.

但我们的屏幕使用嵌入式AI，不仅能检测无限数量的手指触碰设备，还能识别物理游戏棋子。

But our screen uses embedded AI to detect not just an unlimited number of fingers touching the device, but also physical game pieces.

它知道这是朝这个方向停放的宇宙飞船，或者这是正在切番茄的刀。

So it knows this is the spaceship facing this direction sitting over here, or this is the knife slicing the tomato.

这使得人们能够使用物理棋子作为控制器与数字屏幕互动。

And what it enables is people to use physical pieces as a controller to interact with the digital screen.

明白了。

Got it.

从技术上讲，这最困难的部分是什么？

And what was the hardest part about this technically?

我的意思是，我从来没想过要设计一款桌游，但你可是混合现实领域的专家。

I mean, look, I've never tried to build a board game, but you're an expert in all things sort of mixed reality here.

检测棋子或识别棋盘上是哪个棋子，这似乎是以前从未有人做到过的最难的事情吗？

It piece detecting or the board detecting what piece it is that seems to be the hardest thing that hasn't been done before?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，以前从未有人能让屏幕同时识别无限数量的手指触摸、手势以及物理对象。

So no one before has been able to have a screen that recognizes unlimited finger touches, gestures, as well as physical objects.

因此，开发这项技术花了我们好几年时间，非常具有挑战性。

So building that technology took us multiple years and was quite challenging.

但同时，我们还为首发产品阵容开发了12款原创游戏。

But also, were building 12 original games as part of our launch portfolio.

所以，任何从事娱乐行业的人应该都知道，找到乐趣是非常具有挑战性的。

So anyone who's worked in entertainment, I think, knows that finding the fun is quite challenging.

因此，我们不仅要解锁这种全新的互动玩法技术，还要确保游戏对全家人都真正有趣且吸引人。

So not only unlocking this new kind of technology for play, but also making sure that the games were really fun and engaging for the full family.

让从最小的孩子到年长的成年人都能一起玩，共同找到快乐。

So everyone from the littlest kids to the oldest grown up can play together and find joy.

我很好奇，我们谈的是好几年后的事，但你们有计划让外部开发者参与这些游戏的开发吗？

And I'm curious, and we're talking years out here, but do you plan to open the development of these games up to outside developers?

你们现在是全部自己内部开发吗？

Are you keeping it all in house right now?

你们是怎么考虑这个问题的？

How do you think about that?

平台。

Platform.

在发布后，我们非常兴奋地看到，在第一周内就有超过2500名开发者主动联系我们。

So we were so excited after launching to have over 2,500 inbounds from developers within the first week.

人们非常希望在Board上创建属于自己的实体数字体验。

People really wanting to build their own physical digital experiences on Board.

所以我们已经在这样做了。

And so we're already doing that.

开发者们已经开始制作游戏，这些游戏将陆续上架到我们的商店中。

Developers are starting to build games that will be available in 26 in our store.

我们还非常期待普通消费者能够在设备上自行创建体验。

And we're also really excited about the possibility for the average consumer to build their own experiences on device.

因此，我们真正希望打造用户生成内容（UGC）的创作工具，让Board从一个游戏主机转变为一个供所有人创建自己体验的更广泛平台。

So we really wanna build UGC creation tools so Board goes from being a gaming console to a broader platform for everyone to create their own experiences.

对。

Right.

现在它的价格是499美元。

Now, it's $499 right now.

它只是一个多月前刚发布的。

It just came out about a month ago.

现在是499美元，假期促销结束后，我认为这周晚些时候价格将涨到699美元。这里的客户是谁呢？

It's $499 Prices are going up, I think, later this week after the holiday sale ends to $699 Who is the customer here?

因为这并不便宜。

Because it's not cheap.

真正令人兴奋的是，从第一天起，客户群体就涵盖了所有人。

What's been really exciting to see is the customer really on day one has been everyone.

在第一周内，我们已经进入了除怀俄明州以外的所有州。

Within the first week, we were in every single state except for Wyoming.

怀俄明州多坚持了几天。

Wyoming held out a few extra days.

但除了怀俄明州，我们已经覆盖了所有州，并且吸引了极其多元的买家群体——从热衷于开发自己游戏的科技爱好者，到希望将它作为家庭圣诞礼物、拉近家人关系的普通父母。

But beside Wyoming, we were in every state, And we've had just an incredible range of buyers from people who are in tech excited to build their own games to really the average mom and dad who are looking at this to be the family Christmas present to bring people together.

因此，这并不是一种仅限于沿海地区的早期采用者产品。

And so it really hasn't been sort of a coastal early adopter product.

从第一天起，它就真正成为了一种大众化产品，这让我们感到非常振奋。

It's from day one, it has really been quite mass, which has been really exciting for us.

我想知道你们是如何进行市场营销的。

And I'm curious how you're approaching the marketing here.

你能谈谈哪个渠道最有效吗？

Can you talk about which channel has been most effective?

我知道才过去一个月。

I say that it's been a month, I know that.

但根据你在Mirror的经验，现在将这些经验带到这里，你们最投入的是哪个营销渠道？

But from your experience at Mirror, now bringing that here, which marketing channel are you investing most into?

你们是否大力投入直接面向消费者的营销（DTC）？

Are you leaning heavily into DTC?

还是现在必须依赖零售平台？

Or do you have to rely on retail platforms now?

你们是怎么看待这个问题的？

How do you think about that?

我们正在尝试各种方式。

We're doing a little bit of everything.

这确实是一个D2C产品。

So it is a D2C product.

你可以在我们的网站board.fun上找到它。

You can find it at our website, board.fun.

我们还在Camp开设了假日快闪店，这是一家在全国有九家门店的高端玩具店。

We also have a holiday pop up at Camp, which is a premium toy store that has nine locations nationwide,

而且你们

and you

可以在那里找到Board并进行体验。

can find board there and do a demo.

但真正令人兴奋的是，游戏的视觉效果和叙事方式真正引发了人们的共鸣。

But what's been really exciting is sort of the the visuals and the storytelling of play bringing people together has really resonated.

因此，我们只是在思考如何传播这个故事，无论是通过Twitter、Instagram还是Hacker News。

And so it's just been about where can we get that story out, be it Twitter or Instagram or on Hacker News.

通过媒体，我们的曝光渠道可谓无所不在。

It's been kind of all over the place through press.

最后一个问题，我知道你们经常被问到。

And last question for you, and I'm sure you get this a lot.

我的意思是，我没有孩子，所以你比我知道得更清楚，但我原本以为我们的目标是让孩子远离屏幕。

Mean, I thought, and I don't have kids, so you know this better than I do, but I thought the whole idea was we were trying to get kids off of screens.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这取决于我们让屏幕去做什么。

I mean, I think that's a question of what we're asking the screen to do.

有些屏幕会把人们分开，每个人独自拿着手机或iPad，孤零零地坐在角落，心不在焉地切换不同的标签页。

So there's screens that pull us apart, everyone on their own phone or their iPad sitting in the corner in an isolated way, flipping between different tabs sort of distractedly.

而有些屏幕则能把人们聚集在一起，共同创造、协作、竞争。

And then there's a screen that brings people together to create, collaborate, compete.

这正是Board的核心所在。

And that's really what board's about.

屏幕并不是一种被动的、独立的体验。

The screen isn't a passive, independent experience.

它能创造你所关心的人之间珍贵的核心回忆。

It's something that's creating really great core memories of people you care about.

明白了。

Got it.

我很期待尝试一下，玩一局游戏。

Well, I look forward to giving it a shot and playing a game.