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欢迎各位收看《The Information》的TI TV。
Welcome everyone to The Information's TI TV.
我是阿卡什·佩里特查。
My name is Akash Pesritcha.
今天是1月9日，星期五。
It is Friday, January 9.
我们有一期充实的节目为本周画上句号。
We have a busy show to close out the week.
首先，《The Information》独家报道，DeepSeek距离发布其新的旗舰AI模型仅剩数周时间。
First up, The Information published exclusive reporting that DeepSeek is just weeks away from releasing its new flagship AI model.
我们将与我们的亚洲分局主管讨论这一消息。
We will discuss the news with our Asia bureau chief.
我们还独家报道，Strava已秘密提交了IPO申请，而由NVIDIA支持的云服务商Lambda正在洽谈融资3.5亿美元，以筹备其IPO。
We're also exclusively reporting that Strava has filed confidentially for an IPO, and NVIDIA backed cloud provider Lambda is in talks to raise $350,000,000 ahead of its IPO.
我们将深入剖析这两则新闻。
We will break down both of those stories.
我们为您准备了精彩的嘉宾阵容。
We have a great lineup of guests for you.
Every公司的首席执行官丹·希珀将做客节目，与我们探讨人工智能与媒体；我们还将与Roe公司的首席执行官扎克·雷塔诺对话，聊聊该公司与诺和诺德共同推出的新型GLP-1口服药。
Dan Shipper, CEO at Every, will join the program to talk AI and media, and we are also sitting down with Zach Raytano, CEO of Roe, who will talk about the company's new GLP-one pill launched with Novo Nordisk.
今天是周五，又到了《编辑精选》环节，我们的周末记者将在节目末尾讲述硅谷最新痴迷的话题——了解你的生物年龄。
And it is Friday, so it's time for another edition of the Editor's Cut, and our weekend reporter will wrap the show talking about Silicon Valley's latest obsession, Learning Your Biological Age.
这期节目内容丰富，我们马上开始。
It is a jam packed show, and so let's get right on into things.
《The Information》独家报道，DeepSeek预计将在未来几周推出其下一代人工智能模型。
The Information Published exclusive reporting that DeepSeek is expected to launch its next gen AI model in the coming weeks.
现在邀请我们的亚洲特派记者杨静为我们带来详细信息。
Joining me now with the details is our Asia Bureau Chief, Jing Yang.
杨静，欢迎再次做客节目。
Jing, welcome back to the show.
很高兴你来到这里。
It's great to have you here.
谢谢，阿卡什。
Thank you, Akash.
很高兴在新的一年回到这里。
Glad to be back in the new year.
那么，我们对这个新模型和DeepSeek的消息了解多少？
So what do we know about this new model and the deepseat news?
是的。
Yeah.
所以这个新模型是
So the new model is
将被称为V4，它是2024年12月发布的V3的继任者。
going be called V4, which is a successor to V3, which was launched in December 2024.
这个新模型具有非常强大的编程能力。
And this new model features very strong coding capabilities.
DeepSeek的员工基于他们自己的内部基准进行了测试，结果显示V4在编程方面优于Anthropic和Open S模型。
DeepSeq's employees conducted testings based on their own internal benchmark, and those testing showed that V4 outperforms both, you know, Anthropic and Open S models in coding.
但显然，真正的检验标准在于实际效果。
But obviously, the proof is going to be in the pudding.
直到我们真正看到它是什么样子，才能知道它是否真的表现更优。
We won't know if it really outperforms until, you know, we see what it is.
我的意思是，第一步是把它发布出去。
Well, I mean, the first step is getting it out there.
这正是这里的首要步骤。
That's the first step here.
跟我讲讲，V系列模型和DeepSeek备受关注的R1模型之间有什么区别？
Talk to me about what is the difference between the V series models and then the R1 model that I know has gotten a lot of attention at DeepSeek?
是的。
Yeah.
正如我提到的，Waze三号是在2024年12月发布的，那个模型已经非常出色了。
Waze three was launched in December 24, as I mentioned, and that model was already very good.
它是一个通用的大语言模型，已经让公司在全球人工智能界声名鹊起。
It's a large language model, general purpose model, what we call, that, you know, already put the company on the map of the global in the global AI community.
而R1，也就是R系列，到目前为止我们只推出了一代，它被称为推理模型。
And the R1, the R series, which we only had one generation so far, is what we call a reasoning model.
基本上，它能够像需要时间思考一样，然后按逻辑顺序执行一系列任务。
Basically, it can perform like it takes time to think and then perform a series of tasks in a logical sequence.
而这款模型，也就是大约一年前，即2005年1月发布的那款，引发了从硅谷到华尔街的巨大震动。
And that was the model, by the way, which was released in January 2005 about a year ago that, you know, shocked that same shock waves from Silicon Valley to Wall Street.
这就是我们现在所说的‘DeepSeek时刻’。
That was what we now call the DeepSeek moment.
好的。
Okay.
我想知道，你如何看待DeepSeek的模型发布在AI竞赛中的定位？
I wonder how you think about DeepSeek's model releases in the context of its position in the AI race.
它是否像北美地区那样，陷入了一场仅仅追求最佳模型的军备竞赛？
Is it in a similar sort of arms race as we see here in North America with respect to just trying to get the best model?
我的意思是，它是否在从事比模型和用户可使用的应用更广泛的工作？
I mean, is it working on anything broader than the models and applications that people can use?
所以，DeepSeek，正如你所知，
So, DeepSeg, as you know,
是开源的大力倡导者。
is like a big champion for open source.
他们的所有模型都是开源的。
And then all of their models have been open source.
在R1发布于v3之后，这一事件在中国引发了激烈的竞争，并极大地提升了中国LLM开发者社区对开源的认知。
And when R1 was after v3 and, excuse me, after v3 and R1's releases, it sort of started in China, this intensified competition and then really like raised the awareness of open source among the Chinese LLM developer community.
而在2025年全年，我们看到从阿里巴巴、百度这样的巨头，到Jirupu、Minimax和Moonshot等初创公司，纷纷竞相发布自己的开源模型。
And then throughout 2025, we see companies from, you know, giants like Alibaba and Baidu to startups like Jirupu, Minimax, and Moonshot all rushed, raced to release their own open source model offerings.
然而，与此同时，DeepSeek却悄然沉寂了。
However, in the same time, you know, DeepSeek simply, you know, sort of has gone quiet.
如果你在接下来几周，大约二月中旬，看到他们发布了v4，那将是他们成为全球焦点后的首个重大模型发布。
You know, if they do release v4 like we write about in the next few weeks around mid February, that will be their first major model release after they became a global sensation.
而在美国，正如我们所知，由Meta开发的LAMA是，
And then in The US, as we know, LAMA developed by Meta was,
你
you
知道，DeepSeek 是开源的大力倡导者，而我认为美国大多数其他模型开发者都采取了闭源方式。
know, a big champion, is a big champion of open source where I think most of the other model developers in The US sort of have taken the closed source approach.
去年 DeepSeek 的举动也促使人们开始讨论，我们美国是否也应该更多地开发开源模型。
And then the deep seq moment last year also sort of incentivized some discussions over, you know, if we actually should in The US, if we should actually, you know, do more open source models as well.
而目前，我们还没有看到这种趋势在美国大规模发生。
And right now, we we haven't seen that really happening at a larger scale.
DeepSeek 以及追随其脚步的其他中国模型开发者，过去一年里真正让中国的开源模型成为全球使用量最大的开源模型，就令牌数而言。
And then DeepSeq plus, you know, the other Chinese model developers that have taken the open source route following DeepSeq's lead has, in the past year, really sort of made China, Chinese open source model, really the most used by number of tokens around the world when it comes to just, you know, open
开源模型本身。
source models on their own.
很好。
Great.
这确实是我们密切关注的一个故事。
Well, it is a story that we are following closely.
静，感谢你前来做客。
Jing, I want to thank you for coming on.
这位是静杨，我们《信息》杂志的亚洲局局长。
That is Jing Yang, our Asia Bureau Chief, here at The Information.
好的。
Okay.
Strava 已秘密提交了上市申请。
Strava has filed confidentially to go public.
这是根据《信息》杂志最新独家报道。
That is according to a new exclusive story from The Information.
我想请我们的财经局副局长科里·温伯格，来谈谈这家公司的现状。
I want to bring on our Deputy Bureau Chief of Finance, Corey Weinberg, to talk about the state of that business.
科里，欢迎再次做客我们的节目。
Corey, welcome back to the show.
很高兴你来到这里。
It's great to have you here.
嘿，阿卡什，早上好。
Hey Akash, good morning.
你身后的是我去年圣诞节送你的那盏洛杉矶灯吗？
Is that the LA light that I got you for Christmas behind you?
是的，没错，阿卡什，我非常喜欢它。
Yeah, I mean, it is, Akash, and I loved it.
为了让我们听众和观众跟上进度，The Information 内部有个秘密圣诞老人活动，我想阿卡什就是我的那位。
And to bring our listeners and viewers up to speed, the information does have secret Santa celebration internally, and I guess Akash was mine.
我很贴心地选了今年夺冠的洛杉矶道奇队，但我也有点郁闷，因为他们击败了我心爱的多伦多蓝鸟队。
I was very thoughtful that the LA Dodgers won this year, and I was also a little upset because, of course, they beat my beloved Blue Jays.
但我是个好队友，你也是。
But I'm a good sport and so are you.
你把它挂出来了。
You put it up.
谢谢你这么做。
So thanks for doing that.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
当然。
Well, definitely.
这是对洛杉矶的一个很好的标志。
A good signpost for LA.
全部
All
对。
right.
让我们聊聊Strava，你可能是它的重度用户，也可能不是，我们会不会谈到它，我也不确定。
So let's talk about Strava, which maybe you're a power user, maybe you're not, maybe we'll get there, I don't know.
但你提到该公司已秘密提交了上市申请。
But you reported that the company has filed confidentially to go public.
这是一家我们一直在《信息》上关注一段时间的公司。
This is a business that we have been writing about for a little while at the information.
我们对这家公司的现状了解多少？
What do we know about the state of that business?
是的。
Yes.
我认为当Strava几个月后提交S1文件时，会让人感到惊讶。
I think StraubHub's going to surprise people when its S1 comes out in a couple months.
这家公司的故事很不寻常，它已经存在很久了。
The business has had one of those unusual stories where it's it's been around forever.
你知道，这家公司是在我还在上高中的时候成立的，所以已经很久了。
You know, this company have was founded, you know, when I was was still in high school, so so quite quite a while ago.
而且，最近它的增长势头明显，我们了解到它的收入在4亿到5亿美元之间，而且增长非常迅速。
And, you know, it it has picked up growth as of late, so its revenue is between 400 and $500,000,000 was what we learned, but it's growing really quickly.
它每年的增长率超过50%，如果上市，将成为公共市场上增长最快或最快的消费类应用之一。
It's growing over 50% a year, which would make it the fastest growing or one of the fastest growing consumer apps on the public markets should it go public.
因此，这对至少一些投资者来说应该会很有趣。
So that should be interesting to at least some investors.
我想对于消费类应用来说，这挺有意思的。
I guess it's interesting with consumer apps.
我的意思是，50%的增长率对任何公司来说都令人震惊，但消费类应用的风险在于，一旦它火了，就火了，你可能有一年好光景，但一旦它不再受欢迎，就不知道会发生什么了。
I mean, 50% growth is staggering for any company, but I guess the risk with consumer is that if it's in, it's in, and you could have a good year, but then if it falls out of favor, then we don't know what's going happen.
是的。
Yeah.
没错，这正是我对看空观点的看法。
That's exactly I mean, that's how I would think about the bear case as well.
我的意思是，等我们真正看到更完整的数据和故事后，我们就能知道了。
I mean, we'll see once we actually see more fully what the numbers and the story look like.
但没错，这可能只是一时风潮。
But yeah, it could be a fad.
但目前它正火着。
But right now, it's in.
而且到处都有跑步俱乐部。
And there are run clubs all over the place.
我刚搬到洛杉矶。
I just moved to LA.
也许我会加入一个跑步俱乐部。
Maybe I'll join a run club.
但目前它确实赶上了潮流的风口。
But it has a decent sort of it's in with the fads right now.
人们喜欢跑步。
People like running.
这帮助它超越了原本的骑行场景，实现了更广泛的增长。
That's helped it grow beyond just cycling, which was kind of its original use case.
所以你说得对。
So but you're right.
它可能会很快变得不时髦了。
Like, it it could become not trendy very quickly.
你认为Strava在公开市场上的合适对标公司是谁？
Who do you think would be a good public comp for Strava out there?
我认为我听说过的是多邻国，就订阅业务而言，它通过人们的爱好或所谓的副业赚钱。
I think the one that I've heard is Duolingo, just in terms of subscription business for, you know, that that is sort of making money off of people's, you know, sort of hobbies or or side quests, so to speak.
到目前为止，这是我报道中提到的一个例子。
That's one that's come up in my reporting so far.
我想昨晚我们的同事马丁也喊出了这个名字。
I think Martin here as our colleague shouted that out last night as well.
嗯，我一直在想的另一件事是，你在报道中提到了关于‘达到巅峰状态’的部分。
Well, and so one of the other things I've been thinking about is you talked in the story about how Sorry, getting to stroke.
我们办公室这里有点噪音，各位，但我们还是会继续进行。
We got some noises here in the office, folks, but we're still going on with things.
你在报道中提到公司已经盈利了。
You had this piece in the story about the company being profitable.
我们不久前还写过一篇关于这家公司的周末特写。
And we also wrote a weekend profile about the company a little while ago.
说实话，考虑到它拥有的产品组合，我本以为几年前这家公司就可能被收购了。
And look, I mean, this is a business that I could have seen getting acquired potentially a couple years ago, just given the product suite that it has.
这一切都是因为它具备财务纪律，从而能够收购其他企业吗？还是说
Is this all just financial discipline that it's been able to acquire other businesses, or what do
你觉得这该归因于什么？
you chalk that up to?
是的。
Yeah.
我们不太清楚是否曾有过明确的并购对话。
We don't know much about sort of whether there's been explicit M and A conversations.
显然，有一些大型公司关注健身和健康领域，你可能会认为它们是潜在的收购方。
Obviously, you know, fit there are larger companies that care about fitness that you would think and health that you would think would be logical acquirers.
苹果、佳明，当然还有你提到的像Aura这样的私营公司，以及你写过的Whoop在硬件领域的发展。
Apple, Garmin, you know, you've obviously seen private companies like Aura, and you wrote about Whoop sort of take off on more of the hardware side.
所以我不确定。
So I don't know.
我的意思是，这家公司的规模仍然相对较小。
I mean, I think it's logical to say this company is still pretty small.
我们在报道中提到了这一点。
We called that out in the story.
那4亿到5亿美元的总收入，对于一家上市公司来说并不算大。
That that top line revenue between 400 and $500,000,000 that's not huge for a public company.
但我们拭目以待。
But we'll see.
我们会看看它上市后表现如何。
We'll see how it trades after it goes public.
如果表现不佳，我认为它肯定会被人收购。
If it doesn't do well, I think it'll definitely get bought.
好的。
Okay.
那我们来谈谈你本周发布的另一个故事。
So let's talk about another story that you published this week.
你有关于Lambda这家Neo Cloud公司的最新报道。
You had some new reporting about Lambda, the Neo Cloud company.
跟我们说说你了解到的情况
Tell us about what you learned
那里。
there.
哦，Neo Cloud。
Oh, Neo Cloud.
事情变得有趣了。
It's getting interesting.
去年这个时候，我们都在为CoreWeave做准备。
About this time last year, we were all gearing up for the CoreWeave.
或者也不是所有人，但我当时在为CoreWeave的IPO做准备，它在三月完成了上市。
Or maybe not all of us, but I was gearing up for the CoreWeave IPO, which which happened in March.
Lambda看起来像是它的小小表弟。
Lambda is is a bit seemingly its its little cousin.
它们的业务非常相似，都在试图成为下一代大型云服务商，但其关键支柱是获取NVIDIA芯片。
It it has a very similar business in in that they're trying to become some of the next big cloud providers, but their key tent pole is access to NVIDIA chips.
英伟达既是投资者又是客户，这与CoreWeave的动态相似，而且它们正试图上市。
NVIDIA is both an investor and a customer, which is a similar dynamic to CoreWeave, and they're trying to go public.
这些企业需要大量现金。
These businesses need a ton of cash.
它们背负着债务。
They have debt.
在上市之前，我们昨天写到，它正试图通过一种名为Pre-IPO可转换票据的融资方式筹集至少3.5亿美元。
And before it goes public, what we wrote yesterday is that it's trying to raise at least $350,000,000 in what's known as a pre IPO convert, a convertible note.
因此，我们认为这很有趣，而且无疑预示着一次IPO。
And so that, you know, we think it's interesting and, you know, definitely previews an IPO.
我得说实话，科里。
I I gotta be honest, Corey.
这有点好笑。
It's kinda funny.
你似乎是唯一一个对Neo云领域比对Strava更兴奋的人。
You are you you are seemingly the only person I know that gets more excited about the Neo Cloud sector than about Strava.
我以为Strava是个更有趣的业务，但我想Neocloud嘛，你知道的，它们确实很
I thought Strava was a more interesting business, but I guess Neo Clouds are like, I mean, you know, they are very much
它们更难理解，或者说可能更有争议。
in They're this harder, you know, to unpack or they're they're they're more controversial maybe.
Strava就是它本来的样子。
Like, Strava is it is what it is.
我不确定。
I don't know.
它是一个人们都在使用的优秀超级应用，而且能赚钱。
It's a good super app that people use, and it makes money.
Neocloud总是引发更多讨论，因为人们不知道该怎么看待它们。
Neocloud always generate a lot more conversation because people don't don't know what to make of them.
它们是更有趣、更奇特的金融生物。
They they are more interesting and weirder kind of financial animals.
正如我所说，它们背负着债务。
Like I said, they have debt.
它们都增长得非常快。
They're they all grow really fast.
你知道，Lambda的销售额增长了约80%。
You know, Lambda's growing sales about 80%.
但我认为问题在于，它们的知识产权是什么？
But I think the question with them is like, what what's their IP?
这家公司到底是什么？
What is this company?
你知道，除了抓住AI热潮之外，它是否有持久的商业策略？
You know, sort of does it have a lasting business strategy beyond just being able to capture the AI boom?
现在，你在这段故事里有一张幻灯片，我想读一下。
Now, you had this slide in the story that I want to read.
你说：新融资的条款将迫使公司公开上市。
You said, The terms of the new financing would pressure the company to list publicly.
这笔交易以可转换票据的形式进行，如果Lambda在一年内未能上市，就必须向参与投资的投资者提供数百万美元的额外股权或现金利息。
The deal, which is structured as convertible notes, would force Lambda to award participating investors millions of dollars of additional equity or cash interest payments if it doesn't go public within a year.
你能给我们稍微解释一下吗？
I want you to explain that a little bit to us.
总的来说，我想强调的是这些交易条款的复杂性。
Broadly, the point I'm trying to get at is these complexities in deal terms.
我的意思是，这种现象在当前的AI领域是否越来越普遍？
I mean, is that becoming more common in this moment in AI?
稍微谈一谈这个吧。
Talk a little bit about that.
这其实比那还要早一些。
It predates that a bit.
我要把时间倒回大约十年前。
I would take it back about a decade now.
当大量资本涌入私募市场时，这类上市前的融资结构才变得越来越流行。
It really these kind of pre IPO structured rounds became much more popular when there became kind of a a bigger rush of capital into the private markets.
出现了更多对在公司上市前就参与投资感兴趣的投资者群体。
There became a a deeper pool of investors that were interested in getting a piece of companies before they went public.
这种金融工具的设计旨在保护投资者的潜在下行风险，同时让他们也能分享潜在的爆发式增长收益。
And an instrument, a financial instrument like this, it's designed to protect investors' potential downside as well as giving them a piece of a potential upside rocket ship.
而且它们的设计是为了快速完成融资。
And they're designed to be raised fairly quickly.
因此，这消除了在估值等问题上的大量讨价还价。
So that it removes some of the haggling over something like a valuation.
很好。
Great.
科里，感谢你今天做客。
Well, Corey, I want to thank you for coming on.
这位是科里·温伯格，我们《信息》杂志的金融副主编。
That is Corey Weinberg, our Deputy Bureau Chief of Finance here at The Information.
好的。
Okay.
人工智能催生了一代全新的创业者，他们正在寻找方法，重新改造旧有的商业模式，并重新思考我们如何使用日常应用。
AI has seeded a whole new generation of entrepreneurs that are finding ways to reinvent old business models and also rethink how we use everyday applications.
丹·希珀就是这样的创业者之一。
Dan Shipper is one of those entrepreneurs.
他的公司Every是一家兼具媒体公司和AI应用公司属性的企业。
His company, Every, is part media company, part AI app company.
我想请他来聊聊他业务的未来。
I want to bring him on to talk more about the future of his business.
丹，欢迎来到节目。
Dan, welcome to the show.
很高兴你来到这里。
It's great to have you here.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
很高兴能来到这里。
It's great to be here.
跟我们说说Every这家公司吧，因为那边有很多事情在发生。
Tell us about everything that every is because there's a lot going on over there.
很多事情正在发生。
There's a lot going on.
你可以用一种非常简单的方式来理解它。
You can think about it in a very simple way.
我们认为，Every是你保持在AI前沿所需的唯一订阅服务。
We think about every as the only subscription you need to stay at the edge of AI.
我们的业务有三个主要支柱。
And we have three main pillars of the business.
第一个是想法，第二个是应用，第三个是培训。
One is ideas, two is apps, and three is training.
在想法方面，我们每天都会发布一份关于AI的通讯。
On the idea side, we have a daily newsletter about AI.
我们会进行氛围评估。
We do vibe checks.
所以，当一个新的模型发布时，比如，我们会在它发布前就拿到手，并在发布当天进行实际体验评测。
So, you know, when a new model comes out, for example, we're we'll get our hands on that model before it comes out, and we'll do a hands on review of it the day it comes out.
我们的通讯中有很多类似的内容。
We have a lot of stuff like that in our newsletter.
我们还有播客。
We have podcasts.
这就是理念方面的内容。
That's the sort of idea side.
然后我们还有应用端，我们内部开发和运营着四个AI应用。
Then we have an apps side of the business where we have four AI apps that we build and run internally.
每个应用都由一名工程师负责。
Each is run by a single engineer.
其中一个叫Cora。
One's called Cora.
它能帮助你用AI管理邮件。
It helps you manage your email with AI.
另一个叫Monolog。
One's called Monolog.
它是一个智能语音输入应用。
It's a smart dictation app.
还有一个叫 Sparkle。
One's called Sparkle.
它是一个基于 AI 的文件管理器。
It's an AI based file manager.
还有一个叫 Spiral。
And one's called Spiral.
它是一个具代理功能的代笔工具。
It's an agentic ghostwriter.
这就是我们业务的应用端。
So that's the app side of the business.
这些都是我们为自己打造的工具，帮助我们在 AI 的前沿更好地工作，同时也提供给我们的订阅用户。
It's all tools that we build for ourselves to work better on the edge of AI that we also give to our subscribers.
业务的最后一个部分是培训。
And the last part of the business is training.
对于那些想要超越使用我们的工具或阅读我们的文章、深入探索的人，我们实际上提供动手培训。
So for people who want to go deeper than just using our tools or reading our writing, We actually do hands on trainings.
我们举办所谓的训练营，订阅用户可以通过直播观看我们如何使用Cloud Code，例如，下周我们邀请Cursor团队来讲解如何在企业环境中高效使用Cursor进行AI编程，诸如此类的内容。
We do what we call camps where we subscribers, they do we have live streams where they can see how we use Cloud Code, for example, or next week we're having the cursor team on to come talk about how to use cursor really well for AI coding in an enterprise environment, all that kind of stuff.
因此，我们有训练营，还提供企业服务，大型公司会邀请我们为他们的员工进行培训。
So we have camps, and we have an enterprise offering where big companies bring us in to actually train their people.
我们将所有这些服务打包成一个订阅方案。
We bundle this all together in one subscription.
至于这些应用，我很好奇，你们的目标是与之竞争吗？我想到的是电子邮件，因为电子邮件有这些庞大的平台。
And with the apps, I'm curious, is the goal here to compete with and I'm thinking about email here, because email is one where you've got these massive platforms.
你们是否直接与这些AI邮件客户端竞争？
Is it literally competing with these with these AI email clients?
比如Superhuman这类产品，你们是直接竞争，还是定位更细分的市场？
You know, I'm thinking of, you know, the superhuman stuff like that, or is it a more niche offering?
最终，是的。
Like, eventually, yes.
我认为它最终会与巨头竞争，当我想到那些巨头时，就像是在和谷歌或Gmail这样的平台竞争。
I think it'll compete with you know, when I think about the giants, it's like competing with Google or Gmail, like that kind of thing.
目前，它支持Gmail。
For now, it works with Gmail.
它也支持Superhuman。
It works with Superhuman.
随着时间推移，我们正在不断增加越来越多的功能。
And over time, we're adding adding more and more functionality.
我们瞄准的市场是那些品味高端、热衷于尝试前沿AI功能的早期采用者。
Think the the market that we're going after is really high taste AI early adopters who want to use features at the edge.
这些是目前规模更大的公司无法服务的人群，而且这个市场实际上相当小。
And those are people that a company with a much bigger audience can't serve right now, and it's actually quite a small market.
但我认为，十年后它将成为世界上最大的市场。
But I think it'll be the biggest market in the world in ten years.
我们非常专注于那些希望在邮件中使用智能代理来完成所有事务的人。
And we're really, really focused on those people who want to use an agent in their email for everything that they do.
我们正是从这里开始的，我认为这与Superhuman或Gmail非常不同，因为它们必须在AI早期采用者和普通用户之间取得平衡。
And that's where we're starting, which I think is very different from a superhuman or a Gmail where they have to sort of split the difference between AI early adopters and everybody else.
现在，代理器是一个相当有趣的方向，因为我审视自己使用AI的方式，我确实会用，但我不知道自己是否使用了足够多的代理器，或许我应该用得更多。
Now, agents is kind of an interesting area right now because I look at my own use of AI, and I certainly use it, but I don't know that I use as many agents as maybe I could be or should be.
你正处在一个有趣的交汇点上，试图说服人们使用这些代理器，并将它们嵌入到你的应用中。
And you sit at this interesting junction of trying to convince people to use these agents and embedding that into your apps.
我想知道，你在这一领域开发过程中，对如何说服人们使用代理器有什么反思？因为这需要一定的行为转变，我不确定你该如何思考激励人们这样做。
I wonder what reflections you've had from building in this space about how you can convince people to use agents, because it's a bit of a behavioral leap, and I don't know how you think about incentivizing that.
归根结底，这关乎信任。
You know, it's ultimately about trust.
它关乎一种体验：你第一次使用代理器时，会惊呼：天啊，这居然真的管用。
It's about having an experience where you use an agent for the first time, and you're like, Oh my God, I cannot believe that actually worked.
每个人都会经历这样的时刻。
And everybody has moments like that.
我认为，作为软件开发者和大量写作的人，我们的职责是帮助人们更快地抵达这种体验，并清晰地传达出它的价值所在。
And I think our job as people who make software and also people who write a lot is to help people get to that faster and and make sure it's clear like what the value is.
使用代理只是为了说‘我在用代理’，这根本没什么意思。
It's like it's it's no It's not interesting to use an agent just to say, Hey, I'm using an agent.
我认为到了2025年，特别是2025年底，程序员们才会真正意识到：哇，代理彻底改变了我的整个工作流程。
I think in 2025, right towards the end of twenty twenty five is when programmers really began to be like, Oh wow, agents are completely changing my entire workflow.
代理正是从这里开始兴起的。
Agents really started there.
你可以用Cloud Code运行二十分钟，它会自己去写代码，或者代码生成器可以运行数小时。
You know, you can use Cloud Code for like twenty or It'll go off and code for twenty or thirty minutes or codecs can go off for hours.
这正在真正地改变编程。
And that is really changing programming.
但对于其他知识型工作来说，这种改变还没达到那个程度，但我认为2026年我们会看到它发生。
And it has not quite gotten to that level for the rest of knowledge work, But I think 2026 is when we're going to see that happen.
原因在于，这些专门为编程设计的代理，其能力完全可以迁移到通用型代理上。
And the reason for that is all of these coding agents that are built specifically for coding actually translate very well into general purpose agents.
因此，它们正成为2026年、2027年及以后非技术人员所使用的通用型代理的基础。
And so they're becoming the foundation for general purpose agents that non technical people are going to be using in 2026 and 2027 and beyond.
所以，如果我理解得没错，你的意思是信任的关键在于拥有一个表现极其出色的產品，而到目前为止，我们还没有真正看到模型足够好。
So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that the key to trust is having a product that works extraordinarily well, and until now, we haven't really seen the models be good enough.
但在2026年，我认为它们终于达到了这个门槛。
But in 2026, you see them finally crossing that mark.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以把模型想象成拴着一根绳子。
You can think of models as having a leash.
我认为，比如GPT-3，作为语言模型的第一个真正面向消费者的应用，当ChatGPT推出、我们开始使用GPT-3时，那根绳子非常短。
And I think, you know, when GPT-three, for example, which is the first real consumer application of LMs when ChatGPT came out, when we started using GPT-three, it was the leash was very short.
就像一次提示，一次回应，而且回应非常快。
It's like one prompt, one response, and the response comes really quick.
随着时间推移，这根绳子变得越来越长，而目前在编码应用中，绳子是最长的。
And over time, that leash has gotten longer and longer, and it's the longest right now in encoding applications.
只有当AI能够可靠地利用这段额外时间做些有价值的事情时，这根绳子才被允许变得更长。
And the leash is only allowed to get longer when the AI is going to reliably do something valuable with that extra time.
如果它不会带来价值，那就不值得花时间。
If it's not going be something valuable, it's not worth the time.
我认为在未来一两年内，我们将会发现，在非编程应用场景中，这个‘绳索’会变得长得多，因为允许AI自行去完成任务会带来巨大的价值。
And I think what we're gonna find over the next year or so is that leash for non coding applications is gonna get a lot longer because there's going to be a massive amount of value that you see allowing it to go off and do something.
我可以给你一个具体的例子，这是我经常遇到的，也许观看这段视频的人还没有体验过：我使用了一个智能代理浏览器。
And a specific example that I can give you that I experience all the time, which maybe people who are watching this are not yet experiencing is I use an agentic browser.
所以我使用的是ChatGPT Atlas，这是OpenAI的产品。
So I use ChatGPT Atlas, it's from OpenAI.
每当我需要更改网站上的某个设置时，我不必亲自处理这些事。
And anytime I have to change a setting on a website, for example, I don't have to deal with that.
我经常被问到这个问题，因为我经营一家公司，我们有20个人，我总是被问：‘我们能邀请某人加入这个吗？’
And I get asked that, I get asked for that all the time because I, you know, I run a company, we have 20 people, I'm always asked like, can we invite someone to this?
或者你能更改这个应用的安全设置吗？
Or can you change the security setting on this app?
而我的浏览器现在就能替我完成这些，所以我再也不用看任何设置面板了。
And my browser just now does that for me, so I never have to look at a settings panel ever anymore.
这正是那种让你恍然大悟的时刻，你会觉得天啊，这真的改变了人生。
And that's one of those things where it can be a light bulb moment for you to be like, Oh my God, this is life changing.
你还在运营一家媒体公司，这在人工智能时代相当有趣，而且你在网站上写了一些非常出色的文章。
You also are running a media company, which in the era of AI is kind of interesting, and you do some great writing on your website.
在这个时代运营一家媒体公司，你学到了哪些当初启动这个项目时未曾预料到的东西？
What have you learned about running a media company in this era that you might not have expected when you started out on this project?
这是个很好的问题。
That's a great question.
没错。
Yeah.
我把一切都看作是紧密整合的。
I think of everything as being tightly integrated.
那就是想法、应用和培训。
It's ideas, apps, and training.
如果你想教人们如何真正站在人工智能的前沿，你需要做三件事。
You know, if you wanna teach people how to, like, really live at the edge of AI, you need to do three things.
你需要传播这个理念，这正是我们所做的媒体部分——我们讲述的故事。
You need to spread the word, and that's the media part of what we do and the stories that we tell.
你需要给他们提供使用的工具，而我们提供的正是我们自己也在使用的工具。
You need to give them tools to use, and we give them tools that we use ourselves.
然后你必须亲自与他们互动，教导那些想要深入学习的人。
And then you have to get hands on with them to teach them for people who want to go deeper.
我认为，媒体无疑是其中的关键部分，但如今还发生了一件非常有趣的事：媒体公司和软件公司之间的界限正在变得模糊。
And I think obviously media is a critical part of that, but also there's this really interesting thing happening where there's not a clear bifurcation between a media company and a software company anymore.
因为现在你可以用英语进行编程，作家与开发者之间的界限开始融合。
Because you can now program using English, the line between writer and builder is starting to blur.
因此，Every 公司内部的每个人既是作家，也是开发者。
And so everybody internally at Every is both a writer and a builder.
所以，每个写文章的人也在参与这些应用的开发？
So everyone who's writing an article is also contributing to building these apps?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
因为你只需随意编码就能做出自己的产品。
Because you can just vibe code your own product.
没错。
Exactly.
反之亦然。
And vice versa.
这很重要。
And so that's a big deal.
但另一个有趣的地方是，由于现在软件的制作成本非常低，它实际上具备了许多相同的特性。
But also another big interesting part of this is that because software is so cheap to make now, it actually has a lot of the same properties.
比如，开发一个新应用和写一篇文章或制作一个视频有着很多相似之处。
Like building a new app has a lot of the same properties as writing an essay or making a video.
你可以把软件视为一种内容形式。
You can think of software as a form of content now.
所以这也是为什么软件部分和媒体部分并不分离的原因：对我们来说，如果推出新模型，我们可以用随性编码的方式快速开发一个新应用来展示其功能，然后发布这个应用。
And so that's another reason why the software part of things is not separate from the media part of things because for us, if a new model comes out, we can go vibe code a new app to display its capabilities and then launch the app.
这相当于写一篇非常酷的文章，因为我们是在向人们展示：嘿，我们做了这个东西。
And that's the equivalent of writing a really cool article about it because we're showing people, hey, we built this thing.
这并不是一个我们打算长期维护的应用。
And It's not an app that we necessarily are going to support.
它只是展示当前可能性的一种演示。
It's just like a demonstration of what's possible now.
我觉得这非常有趣。
I think that's really interesting.
很好。
Great.
好了，Dan，感谢你前来做客。
Well, Dan, I want to thank you for coming on.
这位是Dan Shipper，Every的联合创始人兼CEO，欢迎来到TI TV。
That is Dan Shipper, co founder and CEO of Every here on TI TV.
好的。
Okay.
如果你住在纽约，你可能见过塞雷娜·威廉姆斯注射GLP-1的地铁广告。
If you live in New York, you might have seen the subway ads of Serena Williams injecting herself with GLP-1s.
这则广告背后的公司是健康科技公司Roe，本周它宣布开始提供诺和诺德的新药Wegovy片剂。
The company behind that ad is health tech company Roe, and this week it announced it is now offering the new Wegovy pill from Novo Nordisk.
我想邀请Roe的联合创始人兼首席执行官扎克·雷塔诺，来谈谈他的业务。
I want to bring on Zach Raytano, the co founder and CEO of Roe, to talk about his business.
扎克，欢迎来到节目。
Zach, welcome to the show.
很高兴你来参加。
It's great to have you here.
谢谢邀请
Thanks for having
我。
me.
所以这就是你可以服用的药片。
So this is the pill that you can take.
我们并没有放弃注射剂，还是说那些会消失？不，
This is not we're done with injectables, Or are those going No,
我们放弃了。
we're done.
我认为这是一种并存关系。
I think this is a yes and.
这真的非常令人兴奋，对吧。
Is that's a really exciting right.
但是
But
从长远来看，注射剂可能会逐渐被淘汰，对吧？
long term, the injectables, they probably go away, right?
医生。
Doctor.
我认为这取决于个人。
I think it'll depend on the individual.
我们之所以能谈论这种药片，主要原因是，我确实认为它将开启数字健康的新时代。
The main reason is so the the amazing thing for us to talk about the pill is I I do think that it is going to usher in a new era of digital health.
对吧？
Right?
直接面向消费者的医疗。
Direct to consumer health.
这是首次有如此规模和影响力的药物在全国范围内通过处方直接销售，人们看到广告后，可以在48小时内完成从诊断到取药的全过程。
It's the first time a drug of this size and scale launches nationwide on ROADS so someone can see an ad and go from diagnosis to delivery in in forty eight hours or less.
而这款药片特别酷的一点是，首先，它更实惠。
And the cool part about this pill in particular right now is, one, it's more affordable.
起价为149美元。
So it's a $149 to start.
但第二点，正如你所说，患者不必在疗效和大多数人偏好的给药形式之间做取舍。
But two, to your point, patients don't have to trade off between efficacy and the preferred form factor for many.
因此，接受治疗的患者服用这种药片后体重减轻了约16%到17%。
So patients on treatment saw about 16 to 17% weight loss on the pill.
这将带来变革性的影响。
That's going to be transformative.
对许多人来说，这是一种更好的给药形式。
So it's a better form factor for many.
它更实惠，而且现在就可以在Roe上购买。
It's more affordable, and it's available today on Roe.
你提到的注射剂，确实目前既有现有的注射剂。
The the thing that you mentioned about injectables is you do see both current injectables.
有些注射剂能让患者减重22%，而且还有更多GLP类药物正在研发中。
There are some where patients lose 22%, and there are GLP ones in the pipeline.
也许人们在硅谷听说过这些药物。
Maybe people have heard of in Silicon Valley.
也许他们听说过G3或Retratide或Kagrasema。
Maybe they've heard of g g g or retreutide or Kagrasema.
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还有其他药物将在2026年、2027年、2028年及以后推出，患者体重可减轻25%至30%。
There are others that are coming out in '26, '27, '28, and beyond where patients are losing 25, 30% of their weight.
因此，随着时间推移，口服药通常会略显效果减弱。
And so you will usually see the pills be slightly less effective over in the fullness of time.
所以这真的取决于具体情况。
So it really depends.
那副作用呢？
What about side effects?
在副作用方面有什么不同吗？
Is there any difference in terms of side effects?
它们的副作用相当接近。
They're quite comparable.
它们的副作用相当接近。
They're quite comparable.
口服药和注射剂。
The pill and the injectable.
是的。
Yeah.
一般来说，副作用方面，我是说，目前人们出现不良反应的情况如何？
And generally speaking, mean, side effects are I mean, where are we in that story of people seeing any kind of adverse effects here?
是的。
Yeah.
人们常见的典型副作用是恶心或肠胃不适等问题。
The the typical ones that people see are, you know, nausea or gastro challenges and issues.
至于发生频率，在临床试验中，大约有百分之三十到四十的人会出现。
And and they're in terms of the frequency, you know, over in the clinical trials, you know, that might be thirty, forty percent of people.
但副作用如何，这取决于你想深入到什么程度。
But the the side effects, and it depends how wonky you wanna get.
通常这些副作用会随着时间推移而减轻。
They usually people they subside over time.
它们通常被称为峰谷式副作用。
They're usually what are referred to as peak to trough side effects.
所以这是在人们刚开始用药或增加剂量时发生的情况。
So it's when people start or they escalate in dose.
但人们确实可以采取一些方法来缓解这些情况，我们会教育患者，并在过程中帮助他们减轻这些副作用。
But people can and there are ways to to mitigate those things, and we we educate patients and and care for them along the way to help mitigate those.
但通常人们会逐渐适应，这些症状也会随着时间推移而减轻。
But they usually people can get comfortable and subside over time.
我想问你一个关于当前医疗健康大环境的问题。
I want to ask you a question about the broader health care landscape right now.
最近这一周这个领域新闻很多，因为OpenAI在医疗科技领域有了更深入的布局——是的，通过他们的新平台。
It's been kind of a newsy week for the space because OpenAI has made this new, deeper push into health tech- Yeah, it's with its new platform.
我们在这个节目中曾讨论过一个有趣的现象，即OpenAI正在与各种平台整合，不仅限于医疗领域，还包括其他应用程序和工具。
And one of the interesting things that we've talked about on this show is OpenAI integrating with all these different platforms, not just in healthcare, but other apps and tools as well.
但我对你更广泛的问题是：OpenAI将利用ChatGPT来理解所有这些数据，也许你将来可以将MyFitnessPal或Apple Health与之连接。
But the broader question I have for you is, so OpenAI is going to make sense of all this data with ChatGPT, and maybe you can link up your MyFitnessPal or maybe your Apple Health at some point.
我心中有一个商业层面的疑问：这些公司与ChatGPT整合，会不会最终反而削弱了自身原有的业务模式和价值主张？
And the business question that I have in my mind is, isn't there a risk that these companies integrating with ChatGPT could just end up cannibalizing their own business and the value proposition that they had in the first place?
你怎么看待这个问题？
How do you think about that issue?
从我们的角度来看，我认为首先这是一次很棒的发布。
Well, from our perspective, I think one of the so first, I think it's a great launch.
这令人兴奋。
It's exciting.
我认为，医疗保健领域，现有的医疗体系在过去二三十年里已经有机会运用技术，但显然对许多人来说并未取得理想成效。
I think that health care, the established health care system, I think over the last twenty, twenty five years has had its chance to use technology and clearly has come up short for a lot of people.
我认为这仅仅是未来趋势的预演。
And I think this is just a preview of of things to come.
所以这真的令人振奋。
So it is really exciting.
对我们来说，我们真正看到的是人工智能的作用——我们不仅在内部大量使用它，而且当你现在看到ChatGPT或其他AI大语言模型时，它们通常会加上免责声明。
I think for us, the the thing that we really see about AI and it not only using it internally a bunch, but when you see right now in ChatGPT, oftentimes, it'll caveat or other AI LLMs.
你会看到它们会注明：这并非旨在取代您的医疗提供者。
You'll see it'll caveat and say and says this is not meant to replace your provider.
因此，我们真正思考的是：所有这些数据，我们如何让它们变得可操作？
And so what we really think about is, okay, all of that data, how do we make it actionable?
在某个时刻，我们确实希望让这些数据变得可操作。
And at some point in time, right, we wanna make that data actionable.
我的意思是，这可能是一个处方，可能是医生的建议，不管是什么。
I mean, that might be a prescription, that might be provider guidance, whatever it may be.
因此，对我们来说，我们真的认为，患者越积极参与自己的健康，就越能将这些非结构化数据转化为结构化数据，并获得实时反馈，他们的状况就会越好。
So for us, we actually just think that the more patients are engaged with their health, the more that they can turn that unstructured into structured data and get feedback in real time, the better off they'll be.
我认为，对于痴迷于AI如何在医疗保健中普及的硅谷来说，这里有一个有趣的类比。
I think an interesting analogy here for Silicon Valley that's, you know, obsessed with what is the how does AI really spread throughout health care?
我认为自动驾驶汽车其实是一个非常好的类比。
I think driverless cars are actually a really good analogy here.
对吧？
Right?
我说这个的原因是，你有一些局部区域
And the reason I say that is you have some pockets
在那里你会看到这些高度受控的实验，车辆将完全自动驾驶。
where you'll see these very controlled experiments where they'll be fully autonomous.
对吧？
Right?
这就像Waymo在帕洛阿尔托或旧金山行驶。
So that's like a a Waymo driving around Palo Alto or SF.
在医疗保健领域，你也会看到类似的情况。
You'll see similar things in health care.
对吧？
Right?
因此，胰岛素泵就像是v0版本。
So an insulin pump is sort of the v zero.
它是确定性的，但确实能实时做出自动化决策。
It's deterministic, but it's it's making automated decisions, right, in in real time.
本周你在犹他州看到了，犹他州正在推出一项试点项目，其中药物续方可以完全由人工智能完成。
You saw in Utah this week, Utah is rolling out a pilot where refill prescriptions can actually be done entirely by AI.
这些非常受控的实验，会随着时间逐步推广。
So these very controlled experiments, and they'll roll them out over time.
然后你会看到类似我们之前在特斯拉FSD、车道辅助、自动泊车等功能中见过的场景，它们是对人类驾驶员的补充。
And then you do have the equivalent of what we've seen more in, Tesla FSD or lane assist or parking or things like that where it complements the human driver.
你也会看到大量类似的应用，而且可能传播得更快。
And you're gonna see a lot of that as well probably spread far faster.
对我来说，有趣的是，社会的视角是：医疗领域正面临巨大的供应链短缺。
The the interesting thing to me is the society's perspective is we have this massive supply chain shortage in health care.
对吧？
Right?
需要的人太多，而提供服务的人太少。
Too many people need it, too few to provide it.
这正是AI有望解决的问题。
That's hopefully what AI does.
我认为，我们正面临与无人驾驶汽车相同的社会性问题：换句话说，我们在过渡阶段愿意接受多少死亡？
The societal question, I think we're we're at we're gonna we're facing it with driverless cars is basically like how much it's an odd way to say, but how much death are we willing to tolerate in the interim?
因为无人驾驶汽车在很多方面，我们对它的要求并不是要比普通司机或甚至最佳司机更好。
Because driverless cars in many ways, we don't hold the bar that they need to be better than the average driver or even the best driver.
我们要求它必须比人类司机好上十倍。
We we hold the bar that they need to be 10 x better.
我认为我们在医疗领域也会采取同样的标准。
And I think we're probably gonna do the same with health care.
所以，看看它如何推进将会很有趣。
So it'll be interesting to see how it rolls out.
我认为这对人们来说是一个很好的类比。
I think that's a good analogy for people.
所以，让我就这方面社会性的问题再问你一个：本周早些时候，我们节目中请了一位医生，他谈到了这样一个问题：当有人向AI平台寻求医疗建议，但不幸出了问题时，责任该由谁承担？是平台吗？
So let let let me ask you another question there on that societal sort of piece of all this, which is that we had a doctor on the show earlier this week talking about the question, who is accountable in the scenario where somebody goes to an AI platform for health advice and unfortunately something goes wrong, there is a question about is it the platform?
整个过程中有医生参与吗？
Was there a doctor at all in the loop?
你怎么看待这个问题，埃弗罗？
How do you think about that question, Evereaux?
因此，对我们来说，对于这类情况，医生会参与其中。
So, for us, the way that we think about it is, for things like that, the doctor will be in in in the loop.
对吧？
Right?
我认为在医疗实践中，监管指南非常明确。
And I think there's very, very clear there's very, very clear regulatory guidelines in the practice of medicine.
现在我举一个例子，说明我们如何利用人工智能为医疗提供者赋能，同时显著改善患者体验。
Now I'll give an example of where we use AI to give our providers leverage while dramatically improving the patient experience.
目前，患者可以报告副作用，过去他们可以通过结构化方式做到这一点。
So right now patients can report a side effect and they could do that historically in a structured way.
比如他们经历的副作用是什么、严重程度、持续时间、其他相关副作用，以及是否还能正常活动或继续服药。
So what side effect they're experiencing, the severity, the duration, any other associated side effects, whether they can still move throughout their day or take the medication.
这会生成一个需要医生审核的任务。
That would create a task for a provider to review.
而且，我们的副作用响应时间全天候都在一小时以内。
And twenty four seven, our our side effect response time was under an hour.
随着这些大语言模型的推出，我们可以将大量非结构化数据转化为结构化数据。
Then with the launch of these LLMs, every single we could take tremendously unstructured data and make it structured.
所以，如果你在与Ro沟通并发送一条消息，每条消息都会被发送到一个大语言模型。
So if you're talking to Ro and you send a message, every message is routed to an LLM.
我们实际上可以识别出非结构化消息中是否报告了副作用，创建任务并将其转交给医生，而且我们已经发布了这些数据。
We can actually flag whether a side effect is reported in that unstructured message, create a task, route it to a provider, and we've published this data.
我们已经将医生应对副作用的响应速度提高了70%。
We've been able to reduce the speed with which a provider can respond to a side effect by 70%.
因此，目前在Ro平台上，应对副作用的中位响应时间为十五分钟。
So 20, the median response time to a side effect on RO is fifteen minutes.
在大语言模型出现之前，这是不可能实现的。
That was impossible to do before LLMs.
对。
Right.
所以我认为它正在发展，而我认为，再次强调，自动驾驶汽车是个很好的类比，因为人们对这个概念更熟悉，但自动驾驶其实是一个完整的连续谱系。
So I think it's it's it's going and and I that's where I think, again, that the driverless cars are a good analogy because I think it's more familiar to people, but there's an entire spectrum of of autonomous.
有多个层级，涉及人类驾驶员的参与程度，是否有测试控制的飞行员，或在高速公路上，或这些不同的小范围应用场景。
There's multiple levels, how involved the human driver is, whether there's a test controlled pilot or highways or or the all of these different smaller pockets and use cases.
所以我觉得这是一个很好的类比，这也是我们看待这个问题的方式。
So I think that's a good analogy, but that's how that's how we think about it.
在你离开之前，我想问你的最后一件事是，关于多肽的讨论现在无处不在。
The last thing I wanna ask you about before you go is this conversation around peptides is like everywhere now.
每个人都在谈论——
Everyone is talking about-
多肽和微剂量，对吧？
Peptides and micro dosing, right?
多肽，微剂量。
Peptides, micro dosing.
听我说，直接从制造商那里获取药物或药品，我不知道。
Look, the idea of getting drugs or medications directly from a manufacturer, I don't know.
我永远不会这么做，而且我很惊讶有人会这样做，但我们正处在这个硅谷时代，人们都在尝试新事物。
I would never do it, and I'm surprised that people do, but we are in this Silicon Valley era of people trying new things.
你如何看待Roe的登月式投资？你关注哪些即将出现的创新？
How do you think about moonshot bets at Roe, and what do you have your eye on in terms of innovations that are coming down
这条线上？
the line?
是的。
Yeah.
正如你所说，现在确实掀起了一股肽的热潮。
So there is this large as you said, there's this large peptide craze.
我认为，这是一个非常宽泛的通用术语，因为最受欢迎的肽可能是GLP-1。
I think the you know, it's it's a very high level generic term because I think the most popular peptide will be GLP-one.
它是
It's
对，没错。
like Right.
我正想说。
I was just gonna say.
我的意思是，这本质上就是一个肽。
I mean, that that is literally a peptide.
这确实就是一个肽。
It's literally a peptide.
你知道，胰岛素也是一种肽。
You know, insulin's a peptide.
我们一直都在治疗
We've been treating
你知道，数亿人已经
you know, hundreds of millions of people have been
自大约一百年前胰岛素被发明以来，一直在使用肽类药物。
taking peptides for the last basically centuries since insulin was invented about a hundred years ago.
所以这并不是什么新概念。
So it's not a new concept.
我认为同样的方法只需要被应用即可。
I think this the same just needs to be applied.
我们应用在其他地方的相同逻辑，也适用于这里。
The same logic that we would apply would would apply to this.
我认为你看到的这种现象，人们采取更多行动，以及我对这种肽类热潮或微剂量热潮的看法。
I think what you're seeing with people taking more action and how I take this peptide craze or this microdosing craze.
顺便说一下，我对‘微剂量’这个术语有意见，我很乐意谈谈，我觉得下次可以聊这个。
And by the way, I think microdosing, I have an issue with the term, which I'm happy to talk about it, which I think it's like next time,
你知道的，下次我们再聊吧。
you know, next time we can do it.
但我想你所看到的，是人们对传统体系感到极度不满的信号。
But but I I think that you're just what you are seeing, it's a signal of how fed up people are with the traditional system.
对吧？
Right?
他们正在把更多主动权掌握在自己手中。
They're taking more into their hands.
新冠疫情让我们对各种机构失去了很多信任，而你正看到这一点。
COVID, I think we lost a lot of trust in institutions, and you're seeing that.
我认为这只是其中一个例子。
I think this is just one other example of that.
但正如你提到的制造商，我认为传统体系正在更多地投资于直接面向消费者，并赋予患者更多权力。
And but I do think that the traditional system, to your point with manufacturers, they are investing more in direct to consumer and empowering patients.
我认为，未来获胜的公司是那些积极拥抱这一趋势、推动患者与医疗提供者协作以实现目标的公司。
And I think the companies that win in the future are the ones that lean into that and lean into empowering the patient and the provider to collaborate to achieve their goals.
很好。
Great.
好了，扎克，感谢你前来做客。
Well, Zach, I want to thank you for coming on.
我们很感激。
We appreciate it.
下次你再来时，我们会请你谈谈你对微剂量疗法的独到见解。
And next time you come on, we will have you give us your hot takes on microarrisoning.
我相信那一定会很受欢迎。
I'm sure that'll be appreciate a that.
这是Row公司的联合创始人兼首席执行官扎克·雷·托德尼克，正在TI TV上做客。
That is Zach Ray Todnik, co founder and CEO of Row here on TI TV.
好的。
Okay.
本周的编辑精选，我们想来看看人工智能与购物的故事。
For this week's Editor's Cut, we want to take a look at the AI and the shopping story.
电子商务已成为人工智能最广泛的应用之一，许多公司正试图拓展这一领域。
E commerce has become one of the biggest applications for AI that many companies are trying to expand into.
我想邀请我们的编辑马丁·皮尔斯和梅雷迪思·马齐利，谈谈当前正在发生的一些动态。
I want to bring on our editors, Martin Pearce and Meredith Mazzili to talk about some of the dynamics at play right now.
欢迎你们两位。
Welcome to you both.
很高兴你们能来。
It's great to have you here.
你们好吗？
How are you?
嘿，凯尔。
Hey, Kyle.
我很好。
I'm doing well.
为了给观众们介绍一下场景，梅雷迪思和马丁是挨着坐的。
And just to set the scene here for people, Meredith and Martin sit next to each other.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以我期待一场充满活力、生动的对话。
So I'm expecting a dynamic, lively conversation.
现在。
Right now.
好的。
Okay.
我在我在
I'm in the I'm
在办公室里。
in the office.
在办公室。
In the office.
对。
Right.
明白了。
Got it.
没有协作。
Not collaborating.
根本没有任何协作。
There's no collaboration whatsoever.
埃琳刚从睡衣里起来，而我却在办公室里。
Erin has just gotten out of her pajamas, whereas I'm here in the office.
所有
All
对。
right.
好吧，我们来谈谈电子商务。
Well, let's just talk about e commerce.
怎么样？
How about that?
我先做个预测，我想听听你们的看法：我认为亚马逊今年将在人工智能电子商务领域引起巨大关注。
I'm going to put a prediction ahead, and I want your thoughts on this, which is that I actually think that Amazon is going to make a lot of noise this year in the AI e commerce story.
我认为在某些方面，他们会加速推进，而且今年将是亚马逊最终脱颖而出的一年。
I think they're going to push ahead in some cases, and I think this is going to be the year that Amazon finally breaks out.
我认为购物将成为这一领域的核心。
I think shopping is going to be at the center of that.
梅雷迪思，你对这个预测有什么看法？
Meredith, what do you think of that prediction?
嘿，谢谢阿卡什。
Hey, thanks Akash.
我很大程度上同意你的观点。
So I largely agree with your position there.
我有一些保留意见，但稍后我会详细说明。
I have couple of asterisks, but I will get into that.
首先，我完全同意。
So first of all, off the bat, agree.
亚马逊显然已经是在线购物者的主要目的地。
Amazon is already obviously a massive destination for online shoppers.
这是一个人们去购物的地方。
It's a place where people go where they expect to shop.
我不确定ChatGPT、Copilot以及其他所有正在推出购物工具的平台是否也是如此。
I don't know that that's the same of ChatGPT, Copilot, everybody else that's trying to roll out these shopping tools.
目前，用户习惯是一个重大问题。
And user habituation right now is a big question.
人们真的会使用AI来购物吗？
Will people actually use AI to shop?
我认为亚马逊在这方面有很大的优势。
And I think Amazon has a big leg up there.
更重要的是，尤其是本周，我们看到了证据表明亚马逊正在让其AI代理或他们所谓的代理真正实现在线购物，这一点我稍后再展开，但这比听起来要难得多。
And more importantly, we're seeing this week especially evidence that Amazon is getting its AI agents or what they call agents to actually shop online, which I can get into that later, but it's a lot harder than it might sound.
我们知道他们在做这件事的原因是，小型零售商开始对此感到不满。
And the reason we know that they're doing this is that small retailers started to get pissed off about it.
我在这档节目里可以说这个吗？
Am I allowed to say that on this show?
你完全可以这么说。
You are very much allowed to say it.
因为我们看到一批不通过亚马逊销售的小零售商。
Because we saw a bunch of little retailers that don't sell on Amazon.
他们不喜欢、甚至可能憎恨亚马逊，说：嘿，我们发现我们的商品通过这个代理工具出现了，而且我们通过亚马逊获得了销量，但我们并不喜欢这样。
They don't like slash probably hate Amazon saying, Hey, like we're seeing our stuff show up through this agentic tool and we're getting sales via Amazon and we don't like that.
所以，从某种奇怪的角度来看，其他零售商开始注意到并感到不满，这恰恰说明亚马逊的AI工具确实有效——在当前阶段，哪怕不够完美，只要能运作就已经领先了。
So in a weird way, the fact that other retailers are starting to notice and they're getting ticked off, that is showing that Amazon's AI tools are actually working, at this stage of the game, having something work, even if it's not perfect is being ahead.
好的。
Okay.
所以，马丁，默里迪思认为，其实她也同意我的看法，她觉得今年将会是关键之年。
So Martin, Meredith thinks, she agrees with me actually, she's thinking this is going to be the year.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
我的意思是，这就像说……我不知道，这对我来说没什么意义。
Well, mean, I think that's like saying that, I don't know, that doesn't mean very much to me.
亚马逊在人工智能领域一直非常低调，所以今年让他们多制造些声势并不难。
Amazon has been very quiet on the AI front, so it wouldn't be hard for them to make more noise this year.
我同意他们会这么做，但我只是觉得这没什么大不了的。
I agree that they will, but I just don't think that that means much.
听好了，我非常有信心，亚马逊最终会在人工智能方面做到它所需要达到的水平。
Look, I'm very confident that Amazon will in the end do very well in AI as far as it needs to.
它不需要像其他一些公司那样花那么多钱。
It doesn't need to spend the money that some of the other companies are spending.
他们只需要花钱确保其云服务具备满足需求的容量，并确保亚马逊网站上的AI产品正常运行。
They just need to spend the money to ensure that their cloud service has the capacity to meet demand and to ensure that the AI products for amazon.com work.
我相信他们确实会这么做。
And I'm sure that they will actually do that.
但我认为他们不会像谷歌或OpenAI那样大张旗鼓地宣传。
But I don't think that they're going to make a whole lot of noise, anything like what Google has done or OpenAI.
是的，当然。
Yeah, sure.
但我的意思是，我们现在所讨论的AI购物中的AI成分，相比零售成分来说非常小。
But I mean, I think the AI component of AI shopping as we're thinking of it now is very small compared to the retail component.
而这一点正是亚马逊的强项。
And that's where Amazon's really good.
我们本周与OpenAI讨论过这个问题，AI购物代理总是遇到一个反复出现的问题：它们会被产品数据、一些你可能不会在意的细节绊住，比如不同州的销售税之类的事情。
And, you know, we covered this with OpenAI this week where there's this recurring problem with AI shopping agents where they just get tripped up by product data, by little details that you might not think about, sales tax in different states, stuff like that.
然后它们就无法正常工作了。
And then they just don't work.
所以像OpenAI正在做的，是直接与零售商、支付公司合作，然后在上面叠加一层AI。
So like what open AI is trying to do is team up directly, which has very little to do with AI, just kind of plug in directly with retailers, with payments firms, with this AI layer over it.
是的，亚马逊的AI在这方面可能确实差一些，但其底层的商业部分，我认为他们仍然有优势。
Like, yes, Amazon's AI is probably like less good in that sense, but the underlying commerce part, they, I think they still have an advantage there.
好的。
Okay.
你没告诉我我们会采访亚马逊的发言人。
As you didn't tell me that we're having an Amazon spokesperson coming.
哇哦。
Oh wow.
不过，我要补充一点。
This is my caveat though.
我重新回到最初的话题。
I'm, I'm circling back to this from the beginning.
关于AI代理的所有炒作，都是指我们将会有一个类似个人购物助手的工具，能出去帮你买东西。
All the hype around AI agents is this idea that, okay, we're going to have this like personal shopper like tool that goes out there and buys your stuff.
它会为你搭配一套衣服。
It makes an outfit for you.
它会为你父亲挑选礼物，他很难购物，而且从来不喜欢你送的东西。
It picks something out for your dad that's like impossible to shop for and never likes what you get them.
这对你来说是个人问题吗？
Are you this is like a personal issue for you?
不，完全不是。
No, not at all.
我只是想说，但我们离那个目标还很远。
I just but so this but that we are so far from that.
我们甚至还差得远。
We are not even close.
目前人工智能代理的工作方式都局限于非常明确的边界和特定的情境中。
The way that AI agents are working now is within very set boundaries and in very specific situations.
这就是亚马逊还能表现得不错的原因。
That, that is why Amazon is doing okay.
而且我觉得，如果有人能弄清楚如何把这种更宏大的愿景——这个理想中的状态——变成现实，那确实是一个巨大的空白领域，就像我同意马丁的观点，虽然我不太想这么说，但至少我某种程度上站在他那边。
And like, I think if somebody can figure out how to make that bigger picture thing, this like ideal, a reality there's like that, that is a huge blank open space for sure that, you know, like I to agree with Martin, I hate to say, or at least like somewhat go on his side.
这还不是亚马逊目前在做的事情。
Like that is not something that Amazon's doing yet.
马丁，我们本周早些时候邀请了凯瑟琳·佩洛夫做节目，谈到了她的报道。
Martin, we had Catherine Perloff on the show earlier this week talking about her reporting.
我和她讨论了亚马逊在人工智能对话中可能落后的几个核心原因，至少从叙事角度来看是这样。
And I was talking to her about some of the core reasons that Amazon may have fallen behind in the AI conversation, at least from a narrative point of view.
她提到，谷歌在人工智能方面有一些非常早期的尝试，而微软显然投资了OpenAI。
And Look, she mentioned that Google had some very early efforts in AI and Microsoft obviously had its OpenAI investment.
亚马逊则没有一个明确的早期项目能为其带来领先优势。
Amazon, there was no clear early project that really may have given it a head start.
你是否认同这是主要原因？
Do you agree with that being a core reason?
你认为还有其他因素在起作用吗？
Are there other reasons you think are at play?
不，我认为这才是主要原因。
No, think that that is the main reason.
谷歌、Meta、微软，它们都涉足人工智能多年了。
Google, Meta, Microsoft, all of them had been in AI for years.
亚马逊却没有。
Amazon wasn't.
正如我所说，我不确定亚马逊是否需要以同样的方式与这些公司竞争。
I'm not sure, as I said, that Amazon needs to compete with those other companies in that same way.
它们需要根据自身需求来发展人工智能。
They need to do AI as it serves their needs.
我认为，它们采取了一种非常明智的策略，没有试图与其他人竞争。
I think that they've taken a very smart approach to not try to compete with the others.
梅雷迪思，今天早上你提到，这周微软也表示要更深入地进军电子商务和购物领域？
Meredith, you pointed this out this morning that this week Microsoft also said that it was going deeper into e commerce and shopping?
是的，他们确实这么做了。
They did.
他们宣布了一项与OpenAI结账功能非常相似的功能。
And they announced something that is quite similar to the OpenAI checkout.
所以稍微宏观地看，这意味着在Copilot和ChatGPT中，这些公司表示，你很快就能在不离开当前窗口的情况下购买各种商品。
So just to zoom out a little bit, what that means is inside Copilot, inside ChatGPT, these companies say you will soon be able to buy a lot of different stuff without leaving the window.
他们说这非常重要，因为每次购物者离开当前窗口去访问另一个网站时，都会流失一些顾客。
And they say that's a really big deal because every time a shopper leaves the window has to go to another website, you lose a few shoppers along the way.
所以我要用一些马丁会讨厌的术语，但购物者在他们平台内的转化率会提高。
So I'm going use some jargon that Martin will hate, but the shopper conversion within the They convert
转化成什么？
to what?
他们是如何实现转化的？
How do they convert?
转化率指的是什么？
What's the conversion mean?
更好了。
Better.
是的。
Yeah.
他们说确实更好。
It's better is what they say.
但同样，这种做法目前还真的行不通。
But again, like this, that approach is just not really working yet.
它只在非常有限的范围内有效。
It's working on a very limited basis.
而亚马逊试图做的则是更多地走向网页外部。
And then what Amazon is trying to do is much more like go out to the web.
同样，这并不是真正的AI，听起来更像是爬取数据的机器人。
Again, not really AI, like scraping stuff basically sounds like a bot.
对吧？
Right?
然后找到东西并把它带回来。
And then finding stuff and bringing it back.
我的意思是，阿卡什，你得记住，我们现在正处于公司不断发布消息的时期。
I mean, Akash, you have to remember we're in the period right now where companies are announcing things constantly.
这些公告中的许多根本不会实现，我们以后也再也不会听到它们的消息。
Many of these announcements will never work and we'll never hear anything of them.
但媒体就是如此，它们把这些消息写得好像真的非常重要似的。
But the media being what it is, they write them up as though they're really important.
所以我们必须对一切持怀疑态度。
So we have to treat everything skeptically.
是的。
Yeah.
而且就像再次同意马丁的说法一样，我不知道这种情况怎么会一再发生，但我得指出，OpenAI 关于这些结账功能的最初公告是在九月份发布的。
And just like agreeing with Martin again, I don't know how this keeps happening, but I will point that the initial OpenAI announcement around these checkouts came I believe in September.
也就是在黑色星期五、网络星期一——每年零售业的超级碗——之前，而这些结账功能并没有真正得到推广。
So before Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like the Super Bowl of retailers each year, that came and went and these checkouts weren't really scaled up.
最早也要等到下一个重要的购物季，我们才可能看到这些功能真正开始起飞。
It's not going to be until the next key shopping period at the earliest that we're really going to see this potentially be positioned to take off.
而且我认为，根据报道，许多零售商都不喜欢在假日季之前做出重大改变。
And I think we were hearing in the reporting that a lot of retailers anyway, don't like making big changes before the holiday season.
这个时间点的发布挺有意思的。
The timing of that was interesting that it came out.
另外，人们喜欢买东西。
And look, the other thing is that people liked to buy things.
所以我不确定他们是否真的愿意把这种购物行为交给某个他们喜欢的代理。
So I'm not sure that they really want to turn over that behavior to some agent they like
嗯，这其实是个很好的观点。
to Well, that's actually a good point.
我之前没想过这一点。
I hadn't thought about that.
对自己购买的东西拥有掌控权，本身就是一个非常
Having agency over the thing that you buy is in and of itself a very
人们大多享受这种体验。
People enjoy the experience mostly.
不是每个人。
Not everybody.
对。
Right.
好吧。
Okay.
好吧，我觉得我们可以在这里收尾了。
Well, I'll tell you what, that's a good place to end it.
谢谢你们两位的到来。
I want to thank you both for coming on.
这位是马丁和梅雷迪思，我们《信息报》最有趣的两位编辑之一，哦，这真是
That is Martin and Meredith, two of our most fun editors here at The Information for Oh, it's
那里的排名并不高。
not very high there.
编辑，好吧。
Editors, Okay.
好吧。
Okay.
你知道吗？
You know what?
快走吧。
Get out of here.
我很快再和你们聊。
I'll talk to you guys very soon.
所有
All
对。
right.
我们这期节目进行到哪儿了？
Where are we in the show here?
好吧。
Okay.
现在许多健康科技公司开始推出产品和服务，告诉你你的生物学年龄。
Many health tech companies now are starting to offer products and services now that will tell you your biological age.
我的同事杰米玛·麦克埃沃伊在我们的《周末杂志》上写了一篇深度报道，探讨了这一趋势以及公司提供这些新功能时出现的一些复杂问题。
My colleague Jemima McEvoy wrote a deep dive in our Weekend Magazine about that trend and about some of the complexities that come up with companies offering these new features.
我想请她来聊聊这个话题。
I want to bring her on to talk all about it.
奇玛伊玛，欢迎回到节目。
Chimaima, welcome back to the show.
很高兴你来这里。
It's great to have you here.
嗨，阿卡什。
Hi, Akash.
很高兴能来这里。
It's great to be here.
我应该先说明一下，今天我们到目前为止已经聊了很多关于健康科技的内容。
I should preface this by saying, look, we've talked a lot about health tech on the show so far today.
我们谈过GLP-1，谈过肽类，几乎也谈到微剂量，但没完全展开。
We've talked about GLP-1s, we've talked about peptides, we almost talked about microdosing, we didn't quite get there.
所以生物年龄正好契合我想探讨的领域。
So biological age is right on the money for the realm of things that I want to get to.
你在写这篇报道时，有追踪过自己的生物年龄吗？
Did you track your biological age as part of this story that you wrote?
我真的很想做，但由于报道的时间安排，我们担心结果赶不上截稿时间。
I really wanted to, but because of the timeline with the story, we were worried that the results wouldn't come back in time.
好吧。
Okay.
是的，
Yeah,
这跟看手表可不一样。
because this is different than looking at your watch.
这可不是告诉我，哦，我的Whoop设备说我很年轻。
This is not telling me, Oh, my whoop tells me I'm younger.
不，不，不。
No, no, no.
所以这是不同的。
So that's different.
有很多种不同的生物年龄检测方法，那些更像是一些简单的测量指标。
There's like lots of different types of biological age tests and those are more just like measures.
它们比较随意。
They're a little more casual.
我在这类报道中提到的是那些你可以下单寄到家里的检测套件。
The ones that I'm talking about in these stories are the kits that you order to your house.
你取一个口腔拭子或者血液样本，寄到实验室。
You take like a cheek swab or like a blood sample, send it off to a lab.
几周后，他们会根据多种不同的测量指标把你的评分发回来。
Then a few weeks later, they'll send you back your score based on like a variety of different measurements.
不过，有趣的是，我采访过一位经营生物年龄检测公司的创始人，他告诉我，他认为测量生物年龄最好的方法可能是直接看你的脸，凭外观猜测你的年龄——
Interestingly though, one founder that I spoke to who runs one of the companies that sells biological age tests, he told me that he thinks that the best way to measure biological age might be by just looking at your face and guessing your age based on-
令人惊讶。
Shocker.
看——早上醒来，照镜子。
Look- Waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror.
是的。
Yes.
他说我的实际年龄就是我现在的年龄。
And he said that my age was what it actually was.
他只是猜出来的。
He just guessed it.
所以，我不知道这说明了我什么
So anyway, I don't know what it says about my
生意出售。
biz sale.
我们这样做吗？
Do we do that?
我们只是看着别人就猜他们的年龄，这是我们常做的事吗？
We just look people and guess their mean, is that something we do?
在这个世界上，是的。
In this world, yes.
我想是的。
I guess so.
好吧。
Okay.
听我说，我非常喜欢你的故事，因为它深入探讨了硅谷对这一现象的接纳方式，不仅从采用角度，还从商业角度。
Well, look, I liked your story a lot because it dived into the way that Silicon Valley has embraced it, not just from an adoption perspective, but also from a business perspective.
谈谈有哪些大公司，有多少资金流入这个领域，以及真正的问题在于，你声称自己30岁，但实际上可能是25岁或35岁，这其中的复杂性是什么。
Talk a little bit about who the big companies are, how much money is going into this space, and then really what some of the complexities are around being able to say that you are 30 years old, but you're actually 25 or you're actually 35.
是的。
Yeah.
据我统计，有15家不同的公司正在销售生物年龄检测产品。
By my count, there's 15 different companies that are selling biological age tests.
我的意思是，它们中的很多都是不同版本，我稍后会详细说明。
I mean, a lot of them are different versions, which I'll get into in a second.
但据我统计，这些公司总共筹集了约8亿美元。
But also by my account, they've these companies have raised around $800,000,000.
不过需要注意的是，许多这些公司还销售其他产品，比如补充剂、与长寿相关的产品，以及其他不专注于生物年龄的健康检测套件，但它们也提供这些检测。
It's worth noting though that a lot of these companies do sell other stuff like supplements, longevity related things, like other health testing kits that aren't focused on biological age, but they offer these tests too.
因此，复杂性在于：有一个主要问题，我与这个领域的多位科学家进行了交流，他们全都一致认为，包括那些开发了某些商业化时钟所用技术的科学家。
And so the complexities is that, well, there's one big one, which is that I spoke to a bunch of scientists in this space and they all agree, including some of the scientists who developed the technology that are used in some of these commercially available clocks.
他们都同意，我们无法明确地说能够测量生物年龄，因为根本没有定义。
They all agree that you can't definitively say that we can measure biological age because there's no definition.
这不像身高或体重，我们对如何测量身高和体重都有共识。
It's not like height or weight where we all agree you measure height and weight in a specific way.
生物年龄，目前还没有共识。
Biological age, there's no consensus.
因此这对消费者来说很令人困惑。
So it's confusing to consumers.
你会因为选择不同的检测而得到不同的分数，因为很多检测测量的是不同的东西。
You're going to get different scores depending on the test that you choose to do because a lot of them are measuring different things.
对。
Right.
那么，这些公司对此怎么说呢？
Now, what do the companies say about this?
他们的反驳是什么？
What's their rebuttal?
是的。
Yeah.
很多公司认为，长期追踪这些数据是有用的，也就是追踪趋势。
A lot of them argue that it's useful to track over the long term, so tracking trends.
相对而言，即使你和另一家公司的结果不同，但如果你的年龄在变小，那就是更好的情况。
Relatively speaking, even if you're not the same as what the other company says, if you're getting younger, it's better.
没错。
Exactly.
所以每六个月测试一次，观察这些变化。
So test yourself every six months, watch how that changes.
问题是，许多公司的营销宣传却显得更加绝对。
The problem is in a lot of these companies' marketing, it's a lot more definitive.
我们会告诉您您的生物年龄。
We're going to tell you your biological age.
这就是您的健康状况。
This is how healthy you are.
在某些情况下，他们认为这是观察身体内部状况的最佳方式。
In some cases arguing this is like the best way to look at how your body is doing internally.
因此，这些公司宣传的能力与实际能实现的能力之间存在差异。
So there's kind of this difference between how these companies are marketing, what they can do versus what they can actually do.
此外，我采访的专家们对长期追踪是否真的有价值也意见不一。
Also, the experts I spoke with were divided on whether there's actually any value on tracking over time either.
如果这些测试本身并不特别准确，那为什么还要定期检查呢？
If the tests aren't particularly accurate in the first place, why would it be valuable to check over time also?
我还想再提一点，我并不是想说生物钟完全没用。
And then just one more point I want to mention is that I'm not trying to say that biological clocks are completely useless.
它们在衰老研究中被广泛使用，并且至今仍在研究中大量应用。
They've been used in aging studies and continue to be used in research a lot.
问题是，它们在没有充分验证其在个体层面的有效性和准确性的情况下，就开始被商业化销售了。
The problem is that they have been started to be sold commercially without really checking how useful they are on an individual level and how accurate they are on an individual level.
因此，这在测量人群层面的变化与测试其对个体的有效性之间存在某种差异。
So there's kind of this difference between being able to measure, like, changes in populations versus testing how effective they are for individuals.
在你的报道过程中，有没有听到什么特别的故事，让你震惊于人们为了测量生物年龄，或者更广泛地说，为了获取关于自己身体状况和如何改善的信息，会做到何种地步？
Was there a particular story that you heard over the course of your reporting that really just shocked you about the lengths that people will go to, maybe not just to measure their biological age, but look, we've been talking all day today about the crazy things people are trying to get information about their bodies and about how they can improve.
我的意思是，有没有哪件事让你感到特别震惊？
I mean, is there a story that stands out to you that you were just flabbergasted about?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我认为这确实只是一小部分人，他们处于这个极端的边缘。
I mean, I I do think that this is a small subset of people that are really on the extreme end of this.
但在这些人中，有很多精彩的故事。
But among those people, there are a lot of great stories.
我的意思是，我曾经采访过一位创始人，他告诉我——这在我的报道中也有提到——他的一个朋友在做了生物年龄检测后收到结果，显示她的生物年龄比实际年龄大了十岁。
I mean, one founder I was speaking with, he told me and this is in my story, but one of his friends texted him after getting her results back from a biological age test she did, and she showed up as being ten years older than she is in reality.
她通过短信不断恳求他：我该怎么做才能改变这个结果？
And she was just begging him over text, what can I do to change this?
我愿意付你一万美元——这可能有些夸张，也许
I'll pay you $10,000 That may have been an exaggeration and perhaps
每一年一千美元。
dollars 1,000 for every year.
我的意思是，这大概就是行情了。
I mean, that's the going rate, I guess.
听起来很合理。
Seems reasonable.
但硅谷有很多人非常关注这个问题，他们希望我们能够逆转衰老，并认为这一天已经近在眼前。
But, I mean, there are a lot of people in Silicon Valley who really care and are hoping that we can reverse aging and think it's on the horizon.
是的，我认为这不会消失。
Yeah, I don't think this is going to go away.
最后一个问题给你。
And last question for you.
你其实已经回答了。
Do you think well, actually, you just answered.
我本来想问，这是一时潮流吗？
I was going to say, is it a fad?
它会消失吗？
Is it going go away?
所以你觉得这会持续下去？
So you think this is here to stay?
是的。
Yeah.
这肯定会持续下去。
This is definitely here to stay.
而且，你知道，太空领域的科学家们一直在说，重大突破即将到来，人们对此行业充满希望，投资者也愿意投入大量资金，尽管我们至今尚未看到任何巨大的突破。
And, you know, the scientists in the space keep saying that there are, you know, big breakthroughs coming and there's a lot of hope that there's going to be breakthroughs in the industry and investors just seem to be willing to throw a lot of money at it even though, you know, we haven't seen any massive, massive breakthroughs yet.
所以，是的，我认为这不会消失。
So, yeah, I I don't think it's gonna go away.
兴趣将会持续。
Interest is gonna stay.
很好。
Great.
好了，乔米娜，感谢你前来做客。
Well, Jomima, I wanna thank you for coming on.
这位是乔米娜·麦克埃沃伊，我们《信息》周刊的周末记者。
That is Jomima McEvoy, our weekend reporter here at The Information.
好的。
Okay.
今天的节目就到这里。
That does it for today's show.
提醒一下，我们每周一至周五上午10点（太平洋时间）/下午1点（东部时间）在此直播。
A reminder, we are on this stream Monday through Friday at 10AM Pacific, 1PM Eastern.
感谢大家收看。
I want to thank you all for tuning in.
我们非常感谢你们的支持。
We really do appreciate your viewership.
我已经迫不及待期待明天的下一期节目了。
I'm already excited for our next show tomorrow.
不是明天。
Not tomorrow.
今天是星期五。
Today's Friday.
我们周一见。
I'll see you on Monday.
祝你们周末愉快。
Have a great weekend.
很快再聊。
Talk to you soon.
暂时再见。
Bye bye for now.
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