埃隆·马斯克在 OpenAI 诉讼案中出庭，OpenAI 的模型部署于 AWS，玛丽亚·莎拉波娃推出新播客

欢迎各位收看《The Information》的TI TV。

Welcome everyone to The Information's TI TV.

我是肯·布朗，今天代替阿卡什·帕什里卡主持。

My name is Ken Brown sitting in for Akash Pashrika.

今天是4月29日，星期三。

It is Wednesday, April 29.

我们先来关注一条新闻：OpenAI的模型即将登陆AWS。

We'll kick things off with news that OpenAI models are coming to AWS.

我们的亚马逊记者将为大家带来详细情况。

Our Amazon reporter joins us with the details.

另外，《The Information》独家披露了OpenAI用户增长的预测数据。

Plus, The Information has exclusive reporting on OpenAI's projected subscriber growth.

我们请到了这篇报道的记者来分享内幕。

We'll hear from the reporter behind the story.

我们还会连线我们的AI记者罗基特·德鲁，他正在跟进马斯克对OpenAI的诉讼案。

We'll also check-in with our AI reporter, Rocket Drew, who is covering the Musk OpenAI trial.

接下来，我们来看看在拉斯维加斯举行的一场大型比特币大会。

Then a look at a major Bitcoin conference happening in Las Vegas.

之后，我们的主编杰西卡·莱辛将采访五届大满贯冠军玛丽亚·莎拉波娃，聊聊她新推出的播客《坚韧之美》。

And later, our editor in chief Jessica Lessin sits down with five time Grand Slam champion Maria Sharapova to talk about her new podcast Pretty Tough.

我们会为大家播放一段这段对话的片段。

We'll play an excerpt from that conversation.

今天这期节目内容很精彩，咱们这就开始吧。

It's going to be a fun show, so let's get going.

就在OpenAI和微软重新调整合作关系、结束微软独家授权的第二天，OpenAI的模型即将登陆亚马逊云服务。

OpenAI models are coming to Amazon Web Services just one day after OpenAI and Microsoft rewrote the terms of their partnership, ending Microsoft's exclusive hold.

这对AI云市场的客户来说，究竟意味着什么？

So what does that actually mean for customers in the AI cloud battle?

现在邀请到《信息》的亚马逊记者凯瑟琳·佩罗夫加入我们。

Joining me now is The Information's Amazon reporter, Catherine Perloff.

凯瑟琳，这次发布了什么消息？

Catherine, what was announced?

以前，AWS 的一个明显短板就是没法给客户提供 OpenAI 的模型，因为 OpenAI 和微软有独家合作。

So, you know, for a while, one of AWS's big lackings was that it didn't have OpenAI models to give to its customers, because of OpenAI's exclusive relationship with Microsoft.

现在，我觉得亚伦·霍姆斯也提到过，微软和 OpenAI 已经取消了这份独家协议。

And now, Aaron Holmes, I think, has come on and talked about this too, but Microsoft OpenAI, made that relationship not exclusive anymore.

现在，AWS 在它的 Bedrock 服务里开始提供 OpenAI 的模型了，这个服务本质上是个平台，用来运行各种 AI 模型。

AWS is now selling OpenAI models in Bedrock, which is their inference service, which is basically just a platform, for running various models.

在这一宣布之前，你已经在上面用过 Anthropic 的模型。

Prior to this announcement, you could access Anthropic there.

很多开源模型也都能在上面找到。

You could access a lot of open source models there.

亚马逊自己开发的 Nova 系列模型也能用，但就是没有 OpenAI 的——而这对很多公司来说可是个关键模型。

Amazon's own AI models they've been developing called Nova, but not OpenAI, which is obviously a big important model for a lot of companies.

所以，没错，他们昨天在加州的一个活动上公布了这件事。

So, yeah, that is what they announced yesterday at an event in California.

他们还宣布，OpenAI 的编程工具 Codex 现在也登陆 AWS 了。

They also announced a codex, OpenAI's coding product being available at AWS.

而且这个由OpenAI和AWS共同开发的智能代理产品，

And this kind of agent product, that the two OpenAI is developing with AWS.

其实早在两个月前亚马逊宣布投资OpenAI时就提过了，不过他们这次又透露了一些关于这个产品的更多细节。

They had announced that two months ago when Amazon originally announced it was investing in OpenAI, but they shared a couple more details of that product as well.

但最重要的是，现在OpenAI已经正式登陆AWS了。

But, yeah, the big thing is OpenAI now live in AWS essentially.

那你刚才说，用户是通过Bedrock来使用它，对吧？

Well, and so you say it's going to come, you'll access it through Bedrock.

那具体是怎么操作的呢？

So how does that work?

它和用户访问Anthropic这些其他AI模型的方式一样吗？

Is that going to work the same way that they access all the other, you know, AIs like Anthropix?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

这意味着，使用AWS购买或使用AI服务的客户，现在可以直接在同一个平台上使用。

So that means that like, you know, AWS customers who are, you know, buying AI or using AI via AWS, can use it, in the same place.

我觉得这很重要，因为之前有些AWS客户其实已经直接从OpenAI购买了他们的模型。

And I think the reason this is important is like, you know, AWS customers could have bought OpenAI models directly from OpenAI, and they did.

确实有一部分客户这么做过。

Some of them did.

但很多AWS客户更希望所有服务都运行在AWS的基础设施上，因为他们信任这种安全模式，不希望数据在多个云平台之间来回传输。

But, you know, a lot some AWS customers would prefer everything run within AWS infrastructure because that is how they know it is secure, and they don't want their data running between a million different clouds.

对于这一点，大家的看法并不一致。

There are different opinions on this.

不同类型的企业的风险承受能力不同，对在不同云上运行服务的接受度也不一样。

You know, different different types of enterprises have different sort of, tolerance for different, you know, risk potentially with running on different clouds.

但我觉得，这次整合会让很多AWS客户觉得没必要为了用OpenAI模型，还得专门调用微软Azure的服务了。

But, you know, I think this opens it up to a lot of AWS customers who just didn't think it was necessarily worth it to have to call out to Microsoft Azure's cloud service if they wanted to run OpenAI models.

明白了。

Got it.

但你这周早些时候提到，有些AWS客户对这件事并不太感兴趣。

And then, but you reported earlier this week that some AWS customers weren't exactly excited about this.

那为什么反应这么冷淡呢？

So why is there this muted reaction?

是的，我明白你的意思。

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I know.

我觉得这很重要，因为长期以来，AWS一直缺少这样的东西。

I guess I said it is a big deal because for a while it's been like, isn't the thing AWS has.

我其实挺意外的，跟客户聊过之后发现，他们并没有特别迫切地想用OpenAI。

And I and I actually was kinda surprised when I talked to customers that they weren't more clamoring to use OpenAI.

按我之前说的，这本来应该是AWS最缺的一环。

It seems like that's been the thing that AWS has been lacking, as I said.

但首先，就像我们之前多次报道的，Anthropic在企业市场表现非常出色。

But, you know, first of all, as we've reported a lot about, Anthropic has really been, you know, doing, gangbusters in the enterprise market.

大概三年前，AI热潮刚起步的时候，那时候感觉好像已经是很久以前的事了。

And, at the beginning of sort of the AI boom, I guess three or so years ago, if that's right, it feels like forever.

以前没有OpenAI在AWS上确实是个大问题，毕竟那是最前沿的模型。

Then like, you know, the lack of OpenAI on, AWS was a big deal because that was the cutting edge model.

现在Anthropic已经被认为很不错了，甚至更好。

Now Anthropic is seen as good, if not better.

所以客户们早就习惯了用Anthropic，同时也用Bedrock上的其他便宜模型来跑他们的任务。

And so, customers are used to happy with, you know, using Anthropic, but also other cheap models on Bedrock for their workloads.

比如DeepSeek、Qwen，还有亚马逊自家的Nova模型，都有不少人喜欢。

That includes, you know, there were fans of like DeepSeek, Quen, Amazon's own Nova models.

这些模型都便宜多了，客户们很乐意用它们，也有一些企业干脆直接买OpenAI的服务，对通过其他云平台使用并不介意。

These are all much cheaper alternatives and they've been sort of, you know, happy to either use those or there are some businesses that are sort of happy to just buy OpenAI directly and weren't as uncomfortable using it through other clouds.

但他们其实早就有一套现成的系统了。

But you know, they already kind of have a system in place.

用起来挺顺手的。

It works for them.

所以嘛，谁还在乎这个呢？

It's sort of like, okay, who cares?

我们其实并不需要再添别的东西了。

We have another, you know, we don't really need another thing.

不过嘛，还得再看看，毕竟还没发布，情况可能会变。

Though, you know, we'll have to see because it hasn't come out yet, so it might change.

这基本上就是我从客户和那些跟客户交流的人那里听到的反应。

But that was sort of the reaction I got from customers and people who talk to those customers.

对。

Right.

那OpenAI这边有动作吗？

And so is OpenAI doing anything?

如果他们稍微慢了一步，有没有什么应对措施？

If they are a little bit late, are they doing anything?

有没有价格上的调整？

Is there pricing?

我们对这方面有什么了解吗？

Do we have any idea of that?

他们是想从其他模型那里争取客户吗？

Are they to try to get customers from the other models?

我觉得是的。

I think so.

我觉得吧，说真的，这产品刚上线，过去两个月AWS根本没提过这事，尽管他们早就宣布和OpenAI合作了，但一直没跟客户聊过。

I think it's, you know, I mean, I don't you know, we're still kind of it just launched and really AWS wasn't saying anything about this in the past two months, even though they since they announced they were working with OpenAI, they really were not talking to customers at all about it.

所以我们对这个新服务其实了解不多，不清楚它跟Anthropic在AWS上的版本比怎么样，也不清楚跟OpenAI其他销售方式相比如何。

So we really don't we don't know a ton of details about this new offering, how it's gonna compare to Anthropic on AWS, or how it's gonna compare to other ways OpenAI is sold.

但OpenAI现在完全聚焦在企业客户上。

But OpenAI is really focused on the enterprise.

他们甚至砍掉了其他产品，就为了专注企业市场，比如那个叫SideQuest的项目。

They have killed other products to focus on the enterprise, SideQuest as as they're called.

而且在一份内部备忘录里，OpenAI的一位高管还提到，AWS的客户对这个产品需求大得惊人。

And they also, also in a memo, an OpenAI executive, highlighted that, you know, there was staggering demand from AWS customers.

之前他们只在微软平台提供服务，这其实限制了他们，因为没法触达那些大量使用AWS的企业客户。

And the fact that they had only been available on Microsoft had limited them in some ways because they didn't have access to, you know, the huge group of enterprises that use AWS.

正如我之前说的，根据我的报道，我也不清楚。

You know, as I said from my reporting, I don't know.

我不知道需求到底有多大。

I don't know how big the demand is.

他们说需求大得惊人。

They're saying it's staggering.

咱们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

但你知道的。

But you know.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

那么，暂时撇开AI，聊聊云服务，这会改变云市场的竞争格局吗？

And so pivoting away from AI to the cloud, does this change the cloud race?

我的意思是，Azure 和 AWS 明显是两大竞争对手。

I mean, Azure and AWS are obviously huge rivals.

这会改变什么吗？还是其实没什么影响？

Does it change anything or not really?

这确实是个有意思的问题。

Think that like, you know, it's an interesting question.

我觉得 AWS 一直占着主导地位，而这次让微软占了先机。

I think that like AWS has been sort of the incumbent and this kind of gave Microsoft a leg up.

你知道，势头这东西真的很重要。

You know, I, I, you know, I, momentum is, is, you know, a big thing.

如果微软因为 OpenAI 拿下了一些客户，说不定那些客户就愿意留下来了。

And like if there had if Microsoft had won some customers because of OpenAI, maybe some of those customers wanna stick there.

我跟客户聊的时候还听到一个有意思的观点：因为现在算力太紧张，AI 模型跑起来特别慢，延迟很高，越来越多客户开始接受多云部署了。

Another interesting point that came up in my, like, discussions with customers is that because there is such a compute shortage, and AI models can take can take a really long time to run, there can be a lot of latency running AI models and products, more customers are actually getting comfortable with multi clouding.

我之前聊过一个客户，是一家客服软件公司的。

This customer I talked to worked at a customer service software had a customer service software company.

他说他们更愿意根据哪个云平台运行AI任务更快来切换，因为延迟影响实在太大了。

And he was saying that they, you know, prefer, to just switch between different clouds depending on which is working the fastest when they're running AI workloads because latency can be such a factor.

所以我很好奇，AI是不是正在悄悄重塑整个云市场，让大家对使用多个云平台变得更接受了？

So, I do wonder if sort it does seem like, you know, AI is sort of kind of reframing the entire cloud market a little bit where, you know, is everyone more comfortable using more clouds?

算力实在太缺了。

There's such a shortage.

大家都在到处找资源。

Everyone is trying to find capacity where they can.

我觉得我们还得再观察一阵子，看最终格局会怎样，AWS还能不能继续保持市场主导地位。

And I guess I think we have a little bit more time to shake out of how that all ends up and, you know, if AWS still stays the big market leader.

但我认为，我们确实正经历一场久违的剧烈变动。

But I think, yeah, I think we're kind of in the midst of a shakeup that hasn't been there for a while.

这还挺让人兴奋的。

So that's kind of exciting.

明白了。

Got it.

明白了。

Got it.

谢谢，凯瑟琳。

Thanks, Catherine.

刚才那是凯瑟琳·佩洛夫，我们《The Information》的亚马逊记者，她独家报道了OpenAI订阅用户增长的情况。

That was Catherine Perloff, our Amazon reporter here at The The Information published exclusive reporting about OpenAI subscriber growth.

该公司预计会有大量用户转向价格更低的订阅套餐。

The company is forecasting a massive shift into its lower price subscription tier.

我的同事李·穆皮迪写了一篇相关报道。

My colleague Sri Muppidi published a story.

她现在加入我们，分享她了解到的信息。

She joins me now to share what she knows.

你好，肯。

Hi Sri.

你好，肯。

Hi Ken.

OpenAI 今年如何看待他们的用户增长变化？

How OpenAI see their subscriber growth shifting this year?

没错。

Totally.

OpenAI 在最近一轮融资时的预测中提到，他们预计会有大量用户转向价格更低的 ChatGPT Go 计划。

So OpenAI in its latest projections as part of its fundraise had projected that they're going to see a major shift towards its cheaper plan called ChatGPT Go.

这个套餐在美国每月大约 8 美元，但在印度等其他国家能低到 4 到 5 美元，而 ChatGPT Go 最初就是在印度推出的。

That price is about $8 a month in The US, but can be as low as $4 to $5 across other countries such as India, which is where ChatGPT Go was first launched.

我们现在看到的情况是，每月 20 美元的 ChatGPT Plus 订阅用户数量正在减少。

And what we see is essentially ChatGPT Plus, which is $20 a month, is now going to be less in terms of the number of consumers, subscribers that are actually subscribing to it.

未来大部分的增长都会来自 ChatGPT Go。

We're going see a large portion of that growth coming through ChatGPT Go.

那么从每月 20 美元的订阅转向 8 美元的广告支持模式，这个转变有多大？

And so how dramatic is this shift from $20 subscription to an $8 ad supported model?

对普通用户来说，这会带来什么样的实际影响？

I mean, how is it going to play out for people who use it?

这将是一个巨大的转变。

It's going to be a major shift.

简单说一下背景，去年2025年，ChatGPT的订阅用户大约有四千七百万，其中92%都是来自每月20美元的Plus套餐。

So just for context, last year, 2025 ChatGPT had about 47,000,000 or so subscribers with 92% of that coming from ChatGPT Plus, the $20 plan.

而今年，OpenAI预测，全年约一亿一千二百万的订阅用户中，将有92%来自ChatGPT Go这个套餐。

And now this year, OpenAI projects that it's going to be 92% of the 112,000,000 or so subscribers that it projects for the year to actually coming, be coming from ChatGPT Go.

所以这跟去年的情况完全相反了。

So it's essentially the opposite of where it was last year.

以前92%是Plus用户，现在92%会变成Go用户。

So 92% from ChatGPT Plus to now it's going to be 92% of ChatGPT Go.

这确实是个巨大的转变。

So that's a major shift.

这说明他们相信，推出这个低价套餐后，不仅会有大量新用户加入，还会有不少原本用高价套餐的用户转过来，同时他们还能靠广告收入弥补损失。

Essentially what it shows is that they're betting that as they launch this cheaper tier, they're going to actually see a major amount of subscribers actually subscribing to it, but also these more expensive subscribers switching to that cheaper plan, but they're going to make up for it with increase in advertising as well.

那他们为什么要做这个决定呢？

So what's behind this move?

为什么OpenAI现在要这么做？

Why is OpenAI doing this now?

他们现在这么做，是因为这反映了他们整体战略的转变——广告将成为未来收入增长的主要动力。

They're doing this now because I think it's a point to their broader shift of seeing advertising be a major driver of their future revenue growth.

到本十年末，OpenAI预测，最大的收入来源将来自广告。

So by the end of the decade, OpenAI forecast that the single largest is going to actually be revenue driver is actually going to come from ads.

所以，ChatGPT Go不仅会推出8美元的套餐，还会插入广告。

And so ChatGPT Go not only will it have just this $8 plan, but it will also have ads available.

他们赌的是，广告能推动增长，即使牺牲了低价套餐的收入，也能让免费用户看到广告。

And so they're betting that ads will sort of boost that growth even at the expense of this cheaper plan, but also make ads available to free users.

这其实是他们在推动广告成为未来核心收入来源的一种策略。

And so it's a push towards making ads a big revenue driver for them in the future.

那么，摆在明面上的对手就是谷歌，对吧？

So the elephant in the room is Google, right?

那这部分策略在多大程度上是为了跟谷歌竞争？毕竟Gemini基本上是免费的。

So how much about this is competing with Google where Gemini is basically free, right?

没错。

Totally.

Gemini 完全是免费的。

So Gemini is totally free.

Alphabet 的广告业务本身就已经是重要的收入来源。

Alphabet also has a major ads revenue driver business.

他们早就证明了广告模式对他们来说是行得通的。

And so they already have proven out that ads is a business that works for them.

他们在这一领域已经是主导者了。

They're the incumbent in this space.

所以我认为，OpenAI 也在努力让 ChatGPT 更便宜，好吸引用户，尤其是他们预计国际市场的增长也会成为重要收入来源。

And so I think OpenAI is perhaps also competing to bring ChatGPT cheaper to users, especially as they forecast international growth to be a big revenue driver as well.

因此，这既是为了跟 Alphabet 竞争，也因为他们还面临来自 Anthropic 在企业端的竞争。

And so I think that it's a way to be able to compete with Alphabet, but also they're facing competition from Anthropic on the B2B side.

对这家公司来说，这将是一个非常关键的时期。

So that'd be an interesting time for the company as well.

所以，归根结底，成败就在于用户体验，对吧？

So, I guess it comes down to success here comes down to the user experience, right?

我知道竞争对手一直在拿他们开玩笑，但如果你在搜索时老是弹出广告，或者觉得搜索结果不够干净，

And I know that the rivals have already been poking fun at them, but if you get ads popping up on your searches or you feel like the search is not clean, right?

广告在背后影响着结果，

It's being influenced by the ads.

那可就麻烦了，对吧？

That could hurt them, right?

没错。

Totally.

我觉得OpenAI当初面临不少用户质疑，担心广告会破坏消费者的信任。

I think that OpenAI faced a lot of pushback from potential users around how ads will ruin consumer trust.

但最近几个月他们表示，试点项目实际上帮他们实现了年收入超一亿美元的目标。

But in recent months, they've said that their pilot has actually helped them cross over $100,000,000 in annualized revenue.

他们预计到今年年底，收入能接近二十亿美元。

They forecast nearly over $2,000,000,000 in revenue at the end of this year.

所以我觉得他们是在赌广告能成功。

And so I think they're really betting ads to work.

他们还发了一篇博客，说各种用户指标、信任指标其实没受到太大影响。

Then they've also pushed out a blog post that talks about how different consumer metrics, trust metrics haven't actually been impacted as much.

不过我觉得还得再看看，现在还太早了。

So I think it's just to see though, it's still quite early.

我们得观察他们能不能成功转型，从一家靠用户订阅赚钱的公司，变成一家靠广告盈利的公司。

We have to see if they can actually pull off this huge mix shift from going from being a consumer subscription business to now being an ads business.

但我认为现在下结论还为时过早。

But I think that it's too early to tell.

没错。

Right.

因为他们说，到2030年广告会成为他们最大的收入来源，对吧？

Because they're saying ads are going to be their biggest revenue driver by 2030, right?

我的意思是，广告支撑了谷歌，也支撑了Meta，但对他们来说，这真的现实吗？

I mean, ads power, they power Google, they power Meta, but is this realistic for them?

我觉得这确实是个巨大的风险。

I think it's a huge risk for sure.

他们得把业务的多个方面都搞定才行。

They have to be able to pull off multiple aspects of their business.

他们还得继续推动用户增长。

They continue driving user growth.

当然，去年他们没达到每周活跃用户十亿的目标。

Of course, they missed their user target of a billion users, weekly active users last year.

还有报道说，他们的收入目标也没达成。

There's also been reporting around them missing revenue targets.

所以我觉得，他们能不能持续增长用户是个问题，因为用户规模是广告变现的关键——广告主都希望尽可能多的人看到他们的广告。

So I think that there's a risk to will they actually be able to continue user growth, which is a key driver to being able to actually have ads make revenue because advertisers want to make sure that as many eyeballs as possible are seeing it.

做广告业务本身风险就很多，但我觉得，现在还是早期阶段。

And so I think that there is a lot of risks that come with driving an ad business, but I think again, it's still in the early innings.

所以我挺期待看看接下来几个月会是什么样子。

And so I'm excited to see what the next couple of months will look

这对他们来说确实是个重大分歧，对吧？

And this is a real split for them, right?

因为他们一边大力进军企业市场，另一边又维持着广告支持的消费者业务，对吧？

Because they're making this big push into enterprise and then they have this ad supported consumer business, right?

你觉得这两条路最后会怎么发展？

How is that going to play out for them?

完全对。

Totally.

除了消费者业务，他们还做着企业级业务。

So, on top of the consumer business, they also have a B2B business.

他们大力推动这项业务，派出专门的工程师深入大型企业，帮它们找到AI能提升效率的场景，比如大型银行或制药公司这些案例。

They've made a big push towards this with forward deployment engineers that are basically going into large enterprises and actually helping them figure out where AI can boost, for example, big banks or like pharmaceutical companies use cases.

我觉得这是OpenAI的一个重要机会，而且他们确实非常重视这一点。

So I think that's an opportunity for OpenAI and that they're really focused on that.

除此之外，他们还在其他消费者领域下注，比如机器人技术、IO，以及其他一些机器人项目。

On top of that, they also have a number of other consumer bets like the robotics, or IO as well as other robotics bets.

我觉得这对OpenAI来说也会很有趣。

So I think that'll be interesting for OpenAI as well.

但说到底，要让这些事都运转起来，需要的手艺和精力实在太多了。

But again, it's a lot of hands and different pies to make it work.

说到消费者端的增长，他们提到的很大一部分增长其实来自美国以外的地区，对吧？

And a lot of the growth on the consumer side, back to that, a lot of the growth they're talking about is coming from outside The US, right?

那么，转向广告模式有多重要？

So how important is the shift to ads?

这对他们的整体战略有多关键？

How important is that to this strategy?

确实如此。

Totally.

很多最大的市场其实都在美国以外，当然美国本身也是顶级市场之一。

So a lot of the largest markets are actually outside of The US, US of course being a top market as well.

但你会发现，国际市场的单用户平均收入，通常会比美国和欧洲市场低一些。

But you're going to see, for example, the average revenue per user likely be lower in international markets as compared to The US and European markets.

这跟Meta、Pinterest、Snap这些同样依赖类似商业模式的公司所经历的路径是一样的。

So that's the same sort of playbook that Meta, Pinterest, Snap, and others, for example, who rely on similar types of business models have seen.

所以我认为，推出ChatGPT Go和免费版，能帮助他们吸引那些月收入没那么高、不太愿意花20美元的用户。

So I think that this shift towards ChatGPT Go as well as a free tier allows them to perhaps court those types of users that may not have as much disposable income to spend at the $20 a month mark.

这样一来，他们既能继续扩大用户规模，也能在能赚钱的地方想办法变现。

And so I think that could be an opportunity for them to continue user growth, but also be able to monetize any areas that they can.

明白了。

Got it.

明白了。

Got it.

谢谢，Sri。

Thank you, Sri.

这位是Sri Muppidi，我们《The Information》负责OpenAI和Anthropic的记者。

This is Sri Muppidi, our OpenAI and Anthropic Reporter here at The Information.

《The Information》的Rocket Drew这一周全程在法庭上报道埃隆·马斯克对OpenAI的诉讼。

The Information's Rocket Drew is covering the Elon Musk OpenAI trial from the courtroom all week long.

这是他关于马斯克出庭作证的最新更新。

Here's his latest update for us on Elon Musk taking the stand.

埃隆·马斯克已在针对OpenAI的慈善信托违约诉讼中出庭作证。

Elon Musk has taken the stand in his breach of charitable trust lawsuit against OpenAI.

某种程度上，过去两年的诉讼都在为这一刻铺垫。

And in some sense, the past two years of litigation have all been building up to this.

那些法律文件、巨额律师费，就算其他方面马斯克都没赢，至少他把OpenAI总裁格雷格·布罗克曼拽上了法庭，当着陪审团的面说出了自己的观点。

I mean, all those legal filings, those legal bills, if nothing else goes Musk's way in this case, at least he was able to drag OpenAI president Greg Brockman into a courtroom in front of a jury, and Musk was able to say his piece.

马斯克在被自己律师询问的两个多小时里，主要解释了那些早期邮件的背景——那是OpenAI创始人们在初创时期往来的邮件。

Musk spent most of the two or so hours that he was questioned by his own lawyer, explaining the context behind old emails, emails that were exchanged between the founders of OpenAI back in the early days.

但马斯克也借此机会谈了自己当初创办OpenAI的动机，以及他想让OpenAI成为对抗谷歌在AI领域影响力的力量。

But Musk also had an opportunity to speak towards his motivations in founding OpenAI and how he wanted to make OpenAI a counterbalance to Google's influence in the AI race.

根据马斯克的说法，他担心谷歌并不真正把人类的利益放在心上，尤其是和拉里·佩奇谈过一次之后，他觉得佩奇更关心未来AI的利益，而不是整个人类。

In Musk's telling, he was concerned that Google didn't have the best interests of humanity at heart, especially after a conversation he had had with Larry Page, after which Musk walked away with the impression that Larry Page cared more about the interests of future AIs than of humanity as a whole.

马斯克谈了这些动机，也分享了他对AI安全和风险的一些整体看法，还解释了为什么他认为这场官司如此重要。

So Musk discussed those motivations, some of his broader thoughts around AI safety and AI risks, and he also had the chance to talk a little bit about why he thinks the case is so important.

他亲口说，他认为OpenAI可能开创一个先例：一些本可以盈利的公司，最初以非营利慈善机构的形式成立，接受免税捐赠，日后却转为营利性企业，让纳税人和公众买单。

And in his own words, he says that he thinks that OpenAI could set the precedent that companies that have the potential to operate profitable businesses could get started as nonprofit charities, receive donations that are tax deductible, and then someday convert to a, for profit corporation at the expense of taxpayers and the public.

这正是他在证词开头提出的核心观点。

That's sort of the theory that he advanced at the start of his testimony.

接下来我们还会听到更多马斯克的发言。

So we will hear a lot more from Musk.

好戏还在后头。

There's more to come.

特别是，对方律师还没对他进行质询，你完全可以相信，OpenAI的律师们准备了一大堆问题等着他。

In particular, he hasn't yet been questioned by the other side, and you can bet that OpenAI's lawyers have a lot of questions to ask him.

如果马斯克的证词结束，接下来他们会传唤贾里德·伯切尔作证，他负责管理马斯克的家庭办公室，当年曾参与主导马斯克对OpenAI的捐款。

If they do get through with Musk's testimony, they will move on to testimony from Jared Burchall, who runs Elon Musk's family office as and was involved in directing Musk's donations to OpenAI back in the early days.

这就是马斯克诉阿尔特曼案接下来要发生的事。

So that's what's coming up next in the Musk v Altman trial.

本周，加密货币界最知名的人物都聚集在拉斯维加斯，参加比特币2026大会。

The biggest names in crypto are in Las Vegas this week for Bitcoin twenty twenty six.

这是全球规模最大的年度加密货币大会之一，汇聚了企业高管、投资者、开发者和政策制定者。

It's one of the largest annual crypto conferences in the world, and it brings together executives, investors, developers, and policymakers.

其中一个重点是《清晰法案》，这项法案将首次明确美国对加密货币的监管方式。

One key focus: the Clarity Act, a bill that would finally define how crypto is regulated in The US.

西蒙娜·卢米斯参议员在台上表示，他们计划在五月对该法案进行审议，并推动其最终通过，但真能办到吗？

Senator Symphony Loomis said on stage that they plan to mark up the legislation in May and push it across the finish line, but can they actually get it done?

现在加入我们的是数字商会首席执行官科迪·卡博恩，数字商会是推动数字资产和区块链技术应用的领先行业协会。

Joining me now is Cody Carbone, CEO of The Digital Chamber, a leading trade association that promotes the use of digital assets and blockchain based technologies.

科迪目前正在大会现场。

Cody is at the conference.

早上好，科迪。

Hi, Cody.

早上好，这里是拉斯维加斯。

Hey, good morning from Las Vegas.

早上好。

Morning.

你今天挺早的。

Early for you.

现在会上大家都在聊什么？

What is the chatter at this conference right now?

就像你提到的，大家都在谈《清晰法案》。

It's all about the Clarity Act, as you mentioned.

每个人都在问，这法案什么时候能出来。

Every single person is asking when are we going to get it.

这法案推进起来一波三折，折腾好久了。

There's been a lot of fits and starts trying to move this bill.

正如卢米斯参议员说的，下一步得等参议院银行委员会正式审议这个法案。

The next hurdle, as sen senator Lummis has said, is the senate banking committee needs to mark up this bill.

我们乐观地认为，就像你说的，五月能有进展，但这个法案已经成了会上唯一的话题。

We are optimistic that that will happen in May, as you mentioned, but this bill has taken the entire oxygen out of the room here at the conference.

我挺惊讶的，不管是银行界的机构，还是原生的加密公司，甚至只是来参会的普通用户，所有人都想知道华盛顿那边到底怎么了。

I've been amazed how whether it's from the institutions on the banking side or it's the crypto native companies or it's just the retail users that are here at the conference, everyone wants to know what's happening in Washington.

所以我们之前听说这个法案四月就要审议了，对吧？

So, we've heard that this was going get marked up in April, right?

现在又说要等到五月了。

And so now we're saying May.

要是五月还没搞定，接下来怎么办？

What happens if it doesn't get done in May?

这法案是不是就黄了？

Is this dead?

那情况就真的棘手了。

It gets really difficult.

我的意思是，我们已经把时间线一再推迟，差不多到极限了。

I mean, we've already pushed this timeline, I think, as far as we can.

最初委员会定在一月审议，后来又取消了。

There was initially a scheduled markup in January in the committee, and then that was canceled.

你说得对。

And then you're right.

三月有个截止日期。

There was a March deadline.

四月也有个截止日期。

There was an April deadline.

华盛顿总爱错过截止日，但这次真不能再拖了。

Washington is famous for missing deadlines, but they can't miss this one.

五月的截止日绝对不能错过，因为现在是选举季。

They can't miss the May deadline because it is an election season.

委员会的这些议员很快就要回家竞选了，越到年底，政治因素就越会影响政策制定。

And these members of the committee are going home to run their races, and politics starts to drive policy the further you get in the year.

如果这次再错过，我真的看不到六月、七月还有机会了。

If they miss this deadline, I really don't see a window when we're getting into the summer months of June, July.

到了八月休会期，他们一整年都不会再回华盛顿了，因为要忙选举。

And then you're at August recess and they're really not in Washington for the rest of the year because of that election.

所以这事必须下个月搞定。

So it needs to get done next month.

既然聊到政治了，你觉得现在的情况怎么样？

So since we're talking politics, so what do you think is happening?

关于中期选举，你在加密货币圈里听到什么消息了吗？

What are you hearing around crypto in the midterms?

加密货币在中期选举中会扮演非常重要的角色。

Crypto is going to have a massive role in the midterms.

我觉得加密货币行业是看到了他们在2024年取得的成果，然后心想，好吧。

I think crypto is looking at the success they had in 2024 and said, okay.

现在我们已经进入了主要阶段。

We have now brought ourselves to the main stage.

在政治筹款方面，加密货币确实展现出了强大的实力。

The political fundraising side of things was a really gave crypto muscle.

他们希望重演这一局面。

They want to repeat.

整个行业都希望能复制2024年的成功。

The industry as a whole wants to repeat that success from 2024.

他们会非常活跃。

They're going to be very active.

他们现在正利用《清晰法案》来摸清议员们的投票倾向和政党的立场，并把这些信息当作选举中的武器。

They are using this legislation, the Clarity Act right now to see where members are going to vote, where the political parties are going to side, and they are using that as ammo going into the election.

我认为加密货币将在选举中产生巨大影响。

So I think crypto will be having a massive impact on the elections.

你会看到加密行业在一些选区投入数亿美元。

You will see numbers in the hundreds of millions going into some of these races from the crypto industry.

有趣的是，上一次选举前，加密货币正处于繁荣期。

So what's interesting is going into the last election, crypto was booming.

一切都很好。

Things were great.

他们当时影响力巨大，而且有一位支持加密货币的总统，整个行业都有个支持加密货币的总统，但现在我们进入了加密市场的低迷期，很多人亏了钱，新投资者涌入股市，买了加密相关股票，结果并不理想。

They had huge influence obviously, they have a crypto friendly president, the industry has a crypto friendly president, but now we were in this crypto downturn, people have lost a bunch of money, new investors came into the stock market and invested in crypto stocks or stocks tied to crypto, and that hasn't worked out.

那么，市场低迷、选举和影响力之间，现在的整体氛围是怎样的？

So what is the vibe with the downturn and then the election and then the influence?

从政治角度来看，尽管市场如你所说经历了低迷，但整体态势并没有真正改变。

From a political standpoint, it hasn't really shifted even though we've seen the market, as you said, go through this downturn.

我觉得帮助很大的是，即便加密货币价格下跌，行业传出的很多消息都是关于传统金融机构的接纳和采用。

I think what's helped is that a lot of the news that has come out of the crypto industry, even as the prices have dropped, is the adoption and embrace from some of the traditional financial institutions.

贝莱德每天都在推出新的数字资产产品。

BlackRock is coming out with a new digital asset product every day.

摩根士丹利刚刚推出了一款以比特币为Backing的ETF。

Morgan Stanley just came out with a new Bitcoin backed ETF.

这极大地推动了政界持续保持兴趣，让国会议员们不再觉得加密货币只是潮流或一时兴起。

That has really helped in continuing the motivation from the political side, getting members of Congress interested because they no longer view it as a trend or a fad.

它现在已经站稳脚跟了，因为正被逐步融入传统金融体系。

It is now here to stay because it is being integrated into the traditional financial system.

所以，没错，市场下跌对谁都不好，但人们对加密货币的兴趣和它可能产生的影响其实一点都没变，因为传统金融界对它的接纳反而更多了。

So, yes, the market going down, it it's not great for anyone, but there's still the interest and I think the impact that crypto can have hasn't changed at all because there has been more of this embrace from the traditional financial space.

这还跟去年通过的稳定币立法有关，那项立法产生了巨大影响。

And some of this goes back to the stablecoin legislation we had last year, which has had a huge impact.

银行和金融行业正在采用稳定币，并在全球范围内应用。

Stablecoins are being adopted by banks and the finance industry and working globally.

这算不算你所推动的一个例子呢？

I mean, is that sort of an example that you're pushing forward?

当然了。

Absolutely.

自从《天才法案》通过以来，以美元为支撑的稳定币市场已经爆发式增长。

The market has exploded in the US dollar backed stablecoin space since the Genius Act has passed.

如果这项市场结构法案也通过了，会有多少资本涌入数字资产市场？

Imagine if this market structure legislation passes, how much capital is going to come into the digital asset market.

目前的草案中有一大块内容，专门规定了银行在数字资产领域可以开展的业务。

There is a huge section right now in the draft legislation on permissible activities for banks in the digital asset space.

一旦《清晰法案》通过并实施，来自传统金融领域的资金规模将会非常惊人。

The amount of capital from the traditional side that will come in post a Clarity Act passage and enactment will be amazing to see.

所以我预计，接下来会发生的事情会跟《天才法案》通过后如出一辙。

So I would expect that we would see a lot of what has happened post Genius Act.

稳定币市场已经迅速扩张了。

The stablecoin market has exploded.

如果《清晰法案》通过，整个数字资产市场也会迎来爆发。

We would see the larger digital asset market explode if Clarity has passed.

所以现在必须尽快通过这项法案，至关重要。

That's why it's so critical to get this passed now.

所有人都希望它通过。

Everyone wants it.

各方都坐到了谈判桌前。

Everyone is at the table.

从最传统的金融机构，到最纯粹的加密公司，再到民主党、共和党，甚至白宫，所有人都有强烈意愿。

Everyone is motivated from the most traditional financial institution to the most crypto native company to the Democrats to Republicans to the White House.

大家都想要它，所以我们现在要做的，就是把所有细节都安排好，最终让它顺利通过。

They all want it, so we just have to get all the pieces in place right now to finally get it passed.

不过，现在也确实存在一些争议。

Well, there is a bit of a battle going on.

我的意思是，你说银行都想要这个，这可能对也可能不对，但它们想要的是对自己有利的版本，对吧？

I mean, you say that banks all want it, which may or may not be true, but they want it in a way that's friendly to them, right?

所以围绕这个的博弈还在继续，这其实又回到了稳定币的问题上，法案里一些具体的条款还在争论中，对吧？

And so the fight over, and this goes back to stablecoin, some of the ways, some of the internal details of this bill is still going on, right?

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我们现在还处在谈判阶段。

We're still in the negotiating phase.

但你说得对，银行需要这项法案，不仅因为其中提到的那项允许它们开展特定业务的条款，还因为稳定币收益这部分。

But to your point, the banks need this bill because of not only that title that I alluded to that gives the permissible activities for the banks, but also on the stablecoin yield piece.

它们一直在努力阻止稳定币的奖励或收益。

They have been fighting to prohibit stablecoin rewards or stablecoin yield.

它们唯一能实现目标的方式，就是通过这项市场结构法案。

The only way that they can get what they want is by passing market structure legislation.

否则，现行的《天才法案》将继续有效，稳定币收益就还能存在。

Otherwise, the status quo of the Genius Act remains in place and Stablecoin rewards can exist.

现在我们正在争取稳定币收益，每天都在参与谈判，确保稳定币收益能够存在并持续下去。

Now we're fighting for Stablecoin rewards, and we have been in these negotiations every day to make sure Stablecoin rewards can exist and continue to persist.

我觉得它们最终会成功。

And I think they will.

但银行方面也坐在谈判桌前。

But the banks are at the table.

他们清楚自己需要这项法案，所以我对达成协议充满信心。

They know they need this bill, and that's why I feel so optimistic that we can get this done.

尽管各方意见不一，谈判过程可能紧张甚至压力很大，但所有人都有动力推动进展，争取达成协议。

Even though there are differences of opinion and the negotiations can be pretty tense and pretty stressful, everyone is motivated to get it done and to get a deal.

所以我觉得，眼下日程表已经给我们发出了明确信号：

So I think eventually we're getting to a point right now where the calendar is telling us, hey.

我们必须立刻着手敲定协议。

We need to start striking deals immediately.

这就是为什么我觉得卢米斯参议员说的很有道理：

That's why I'm so optimistic that senator Lummis has said, hey.

关注五月吧。

Look to May.

我们马上就要进行委员会审议了。

We're gonna get a markup.

下周国会休会，我把5月11日那周标记为参议院银行委员会审议的时间。

There's a congressional recess next week, and then I'm circling the week of May 11 for that Senate banking markup.

之后，这项法案应该会推进得很快。

And then I would expect the bill to move pretty fast after that.

希望你圈出的5月11日这个时间点能如期实现。

Well, I hope the circle that you put around May 11 plays out for you.

这是一场硬仗。

It's a tough fight.

感谢你抽出时间。

We appreciate the time.

谢谢你，科迪。

Thank you, Cody.

刚才那是数字商会的首席执行官科迪·卡博恩。

That was Cody Carbone, CEO of the Digital Chamber.

接下来我们请来一位非常精彩的嘉宾，为本期节目收尾。

We've got a great one to close out the show.

五届大满贯冠军玛丽亚·莎拉波娃推出了自己的播客节目《坚韧之美》，探讨野心与成功究竟是如何被定义和讨论的。

Five time Grand Slam champion Maria Sharapova is stepping into the podcast world with her new show Pretty Tough, focused on how ambition and success are defined and discussed.

《The Information》的主编杰西卡·莱辛与莎拉波娃展开了一场深入对话，聊了聊她的播客、投资策略，以及她在赛场内外的职业生涯。

The Information's editor in chief Jessica Lessin sat down with Sharapova for a wide ranging conversation covering the podcast, her investing strategy, and her career on and off the court.

我想跟大家分享一段采访中的精彩片段，莎拉波娃谈到了她对坚韧心态的理解。

I want to play a moment from that interview where Sharapova talks about the mindset behind toughness.

从小，运动就教会我一个重要的道理：你完全不必回避做一个坚强的人。

From a young age, sport taught me great lesson is that you don't need to shy away from being a tough cookie.

而且，我是在数百万观众面前做到这一点的。

And and I got to do it, you know, in front of millions of people.

顺便说一句，这并不意味着你非得在数百万观众面前赢球才算数。

And and by the way, that doesn't mean that it's just winning in front of millions of people.

很多时候，你正处于最糟糕的状态，经历特别艰难的时刻，却还要犯下别人觉得你这种冠军不该犯的错误。

A lot of times, you are at your worst, you are having really tough moments, and you're making errors that everyone expects you to make a winner of.

所以我觉得，无论是在自己面前、观众面前，还是在新闻发布会上，这一路我都学到了太多，也成长了很多。

And so I think, you know, showing up to yourself and showing up to the crowd and showing up in press conferences, I think there are so many lessons along the way that I got to learn and grow from.

我在公众目光下不断成长，现在却得反过来去改掉一些在媒体面前的习惯——以前我习惯了回答问题，现在得重新学习怎么去对话、去采访，我特别享受这个过程，因为背后有真正的意义。

I got to grow in front of the public eye, and now I somewhat have to unlearn a technique in the press where I'm used to answering questions and now kind of learn exactly, engage and learn a new form of interviewing, which I've really enjoyed because there's something on the line.

你得有交付感，也得做足功课。

There's a delivery that you have to make and there's homework you have to do.

我特别喜欢这样。

I love that.

我喜欢面对完全陌生的事物，然后拼尽全力去把它做好。

I love being unfamiliar with something and working really hard toward a goal to do it well.

你觉得呢？我这么说可能有点夸张，但我是想强调一点——现在的文化里，是不是有些部分变得软弱了？是不是我们渐渐不再那么推崇坚韧了？或者，女性现在反而更难找到这种力量了？

Do you think and and I'm saying this in a dramatic way for for the sake of making a point, but do you think there are parts of the culture that have felt weak or have felt like we've pulled back from sort of embracing that toughness or, you know, we've like, or women struggle to find it now.

你觉得现在这个时刻，是不是特别适合谈这些话题？还是说，时机刚好到了？

Like, is there something about this moment that makes it feel like this is a an important time to be having the conversations Or is the timing right to do it?

我

I

我觉得绝对不早，越早开始越好。

think absolutely there's it's never too early to start.

我认为每个女性，其实每个人都是如此，都会在自己的时间找到属于自己的成长和自信。

And I think everyone, every woman, and every individual for that matter, finds their own time own growth and their own version of confidence.

我们总在说要自信、要讲真话，但这些不是一蹴而就的。

Like, you know, we all talk about being confident and being, you know, and speaking our truths, but that doesn't come right away.

我们必须先学会接纳自己，接纳自己的方式，而这需要时间慢慢培养。

I think we have to be comfortable in our skins and and in our approach, and that takes time to develop.

我在球场上和球场下花了好多年才慢慢建立起这种感觉，现在我能把这份体会用在别的领域了。

It took me years to develop that on and off the court, you know, and and now I get to apply it and, you know, in in a different aspect.

但这些年我一直靠着内心的强大支撑着，现在终于能把这份力量带到商业中了。

But I you know, there is an element of being mentally strong that I got to carry for all those years, and now I get to apply in business.

我是从真实经历出发来谈这些的。

And and I and I speak about it from an honest perspective.