Greg Brockman’s “Rough Day” in Court, Amazon’s Hybrid AI Search, SpaceX’s $60B Cursor Deal

欢迎各位收看《The Information》的TITV节目。

Welcome everyone to The Information's TITV.

我是阿卡什·帕什里卡。

My name is Akash Pasricha.

今天是5月5日，星期二。

It is Tuesday, May 5.

今天的节目中，《The Information》独家报道了亚马逊的一些重大产品调整。

On today's show, The Information has exclusive reporting about some big product changes at Amazon.

我们的亚马逊记者将连线节目，和大家分享她掌握的信息。

Our Amazon reporter will join the show to share with us what she knows.

接下来我们会连线法庭记者罗基特·德鲁，他正在跟进埃隆·马斯克与OpenAI的诉讼案，为我们梳理格雷格·布罗克曼的证词内容。

We'll then turn to our reporter at the courthouse, Rocket Drew, who is covering the Elon Musk OpenAI trial for a recap on Greg Brockman's testimony.

我们还会分析Coinbase的裁员情况，并深入探讨xAI如何在快速低价建设数据中心背后隐藏着不为人知的成本。

We'll also unpack Coinbase's layoffs, and we'll then get into our exclusive reporting on the hidden costs behind xAI's fast and cheap data center build out.

最后，我们会聊聊AI编程，看看初创公司如何在日益激烈的竞争中找到自己的独特定位。

And we'll wrap with a look at AI coding, how startups are differentiating themselves in an increasingly competitive landscape.

这期节目特别精彩，咱们直接开始吧。

It's gonna be a fun show, so let's get right on into it.

亚马逊正计划对其核心电商平台进行重大调整，其中一些做法借鉴了谷歌在搜索方面的策略。

Amazon is planning some big product changes for its core ecommerce website, some of which take a page from Google's playbook in search.

我的同事凯瑟琳·佩洛夫今天刚发了一篇相关报道。

My colleague Catherine Perloff wrote about that in a story out today.

我想请她来详细聊聊这个话题。

I wanna bring her on to talk all about it.

凯瑟琳，欢迎来到节目。

Catherine, welcome to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

你好，阿卡什。

Hi, Akash.

亚马逊具体打算做哪些产品调整？

So what product changes is Amazon planning at their company?

这还只是设想阶段，不过我跟亚马逊负责购物业务的副总裁聊过，他是掌控网站界面设计的关键人物。

Well, still hypothetical, but you know so I spoke to the VP of shopping at Amazon, a key executive who kind of controls partly how the website looks.

她提到，他们正在考虑打造一种更融合的搜索体验。

And one idea she said they've been sort of tossing around is creating sort of a more hybrid search experience.

到目前为止，亚马逊已经推出了Rufus聊天机器人，2024年正式上线，用户可以像聊天一样咨询购物问题。

So up until now, there has been the Rufus chatbot, which Amazon formally introduced in 2024, where users could have kind of a more chatbot like experience their about shopping for products.

而传统的搜索方式呢，用户输入关键词，就会看到一长串商品列表，而不是一段对话式的文字回复。

And then the more traditional search engine where, you know, a shopper could just put in terms and then they get sort of a list of items instead of a more like paragraph conversational like response.

现在亚马逊在想，能不能把这两种方式结合起来——先用一段文字介绍产品的特点，下面再展示具体商品结果。

And what Amazon is thinking about is could there be a more combined experience where there is a paragraph describing, you know, some of the product features and then below that the results.

这可能让你联想到谷歌几年前推出的AI概览功能，就是先给个AI总结，下面再列相关网站链接。

So, you know, this might remind you a little bit of Google AI overviews, which, you know, they rolled out a few years ago where they kind of provided this AI summary and then links to the site below that.

当然，这只是亚马逊可能推出的一种体验。

And I, you know, this is just one experience Amazon might offer.

不一定会在所有情况下都这样呈现。

It's not necessarily going to be that way all the time.

你知道，亚马逊的商业模式和谷歌不一样，他们是真正在卖东西。

You know, Amazon has a different business than Google where they are selling.

他们希望人们来买东西，而不仅仅是点广告。

They want people to buy things and not just people to buy ads.

不过，亚马逊网站在AI推动下可能会怎么变化，确实挺有意思的。

But yeah, it is interesting sort of how the Amazon website might evolve with AI.

让我理一下这个思路。

So let me understand this.

我平时在亚马逊搜商品，都知道有个搜索框，点完就直接跳到结果列表。

So when I go to search for products on Amazon, I know I have the search bar there and it takes me to all the results.

所以现在在考虑的是，比如我搜家居用品或者鞋子之类的，会不会先看到一个AI生成的概要，下面再跟着链接和商品列表？

And so is the idea here that what's under consideration is if I search for, you know, household items or shoes or whatever, then I will get an AI overview type of thing with links to results and then the listings?

这个理解对吗？

What is understood?

对。

Yeah.

所以可能会有个总结之类的。

So maybe there would be like a, you know, a summary.

比如说你在找家居用品。

Say you're maybe you're saying like household products.

这个例子是我刚想到的。

This is an example I'm coming up with.

比如怎么去掉台面上的污渍。

Like to get stains off the counter.

然后可能会有个Rufus生成的总结，讲讲有哪些不同的化学成分，或者这类产品的市场情况。

And maybe then there would be a Rufus generated summary of sort of like, you know, what are different chemicals or different, you know, what the market looks like for these types of products.

总结下面会直接显示具体商品列表，比如各种清洁布、台面清洁剂、喷雾等等。

And then below that summary, there might be actual product listings for, you know, different types of wipes or counter cleaner, sprays, etc.

这跟以前不一样，以前在Rufus聊天窗口里，那个像对话一样的总结是单独分开的，买家得手动切换过去才能看。

So, you know, and that's different where basically kind of that summarized answer that was more like, you know, conversational someone talking to you was sort of bifurcated in the Rufus chat window, which a shopper had to sort of toggle over and choose to use.

然后还有一个独立的主要购物界面。

And then there was a separate kind of main shopping experience.

这其实可以默认在某些情况下为购物者提供更对话式的体验，同时又不完全剥夺他们直接浏览具体商品的权利。

And this is sort of, you know, could maybe be opting in by default in certain instances shoppers to a more conversational experience without fully taking away the ability to browse specific items.

说实话，我不确定我能不能接受这个。

So I got to be honest, like, I don't know if I'm going to like this.

我是说，我习惯一搜到东西，就立马看到所有选项。

I mean, you know, I kind of like when I search for the thing, and I just want to see the options right away.

现在他们可能会推出这个AI概览功能。

Now they're possibly going to introduce this AI overview thing.

你说他们为什么要这么做呢？

I mean, why do you think they're doing this?

难道就因为谷歌这么做了？

And is the only reason because Google did it?

我们根本不知道这个AI概览到底有多成功，对吧？

I mean, we don't even know how successful the AI overview thing has been, right?

我觉得亚马逊心里有数，毕竟他们的业务和谷歌不一样。

Well, I think Amazon is aware, and you know, their business is different than Google.

我跟阿曼达·多尔聊过，她提到过一件事

So, you know, one thing Amanda Dorr, who I talked to, mentioned was like something

阿曼达的职位是什么？

role Amanda's role is what?

亚马逊负责购物业务的副总裁。

VP of course shopping at Amazon.

明白了。

Okay.

对。

Okay.

比如你搜牛奶的时候，根本不需要一大段解释全脂奶和低脂奶的区别。

That, you know, you you know, when you're when you're searching for milk, you don't really want a paragraph about like the difference between 2% and whole.

这你本来就知道。

You know the difference.

所以肯定有很多搜索场景，还是直接显示产品列表最合适。

So they wouldn't, you know, there's definitely a lot of types of searches where the kind of standard format where you just see a list of products is the best option.

还有一些搜索场景，比如你可能会想，冬天最好的登山靴是哪几款？

There are other types of searches where you're like, you know, what are the best hiking boots?

她举了个例子，就是针对这个季节的情况。

As an example she gave, for the season.

在这些情况下，你可能更希望了解一些关于如何挑选一双好登山靴的详细信息。

And in those cases, you know, maybe you want some more information about like what makes a good hiking boot.

我觉得亚马逊正在努力弄清楚，哪些类型的产品更适合提供更多信息。

So I think Amazon is trying to figure out what are the types of products where more information is helpful.

而且确实存在不少这样的产品类别。

And I think there certainly are some of those types of products.

比如我知道，每次想买新耳机的时候，我都得去Wirecutter或者其他网站查一查，看看大家到底喜欢AirPods的哪些地方。

Like I know when I'm looking for, say, like new earphones, I usually have to like go search on Wirecutter or some other site and try to figure out like what people like about, you know, AirPods.

所以我觉得，有些商品用户确实需要更多信息，但像牛奶这种东西，用户根本不需要。

So I do think that there are items where people do need more information, there are items like milk where people really don't.

我觉得亚马逊正试图找到一个平衡点，搞清楚什么时候该多给信息，什么时候该简洁明了。

And I think Amazon is trying to kind of thread that needle and figure out

就像那种有点像Wirecutter那样的风格。

like A little bit of like a like a Wirecutter esque.

就是那种有实用推荐的地方，Amazon可能会在这些类型的搜索上多下点功夫。

Like, where there where there are recommendations that can be useful, that's where it might lean into these types of searches and stuff like that.

没错。

Exactly.

完全对。

Exactly.

这其实能帮Amazon往上走一步，虽然这是营销术语，但说白了，这本来就是Google过去一直做的事——帮你发现产品。

Where where and, you know, it kind of helps Amazon in a way go up the funnel, which is kind of marketing jargon, but, know, kind of that's sort of been almost Google's historical role helping you with the product discovery process.

等你确定要买什么了，才去Amazon下单。

And then you go to Amazon when you know what you want.

但如果你能在Amazon上直接了解产品，你就会在上面花更多时间。

But if you can go to Amazon to learn about products, you can spend more time on Amazon.

他们也就有更多机会卖广告。

Maybe they can sell you more ads.

对他们来说，那里可能有不少不错的机会。

There's probably lots of good things that can happen there for them.

所以。

So.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Right.

你提到你和核心购物业务副总裁阿曼达·多拉的对话，我记得你说过她是这个职位。

Now, you mentioned your conversation with Amanda Dora, the VP of core shopping, I think you said was her role.

在那番对话之后，你对这项举措如何落地，或者公司整体的战略，有哪些疑问？

What questions did you come out of the conversation with in terms of how you think this could be rolled out or the company's strategy at large?

是的。

Yeah.

说真的，我仍然很好奇，他们是怎么平衡这个关系的。

I mean, I am still sort of curious, again, how they thread the needle.

她还提到，我们以前也报道过，他们一直在调整普通搜索引擎的工作方式，让它更能理解自然语言。

She also mentioned that we've reported on this in the past, they've been tweaking the way that like the regular search engine works to sort of be more responsive for natural language.

现在我觉得，大概有60%的搜索都用了自动补全，他们也在尝试用大模型让自动补全变得更聪明。

And like they've, you know, now I believe like 60% of searches use autocomplete and they've been trying to use LLMs to make autocomplete smarter.

所以，这会不会让两者的界限越来越模糊？

So it is sort of like, are the lines going to blur?

这确实是我一直想知道的问题。

So that is definitely a question I have.

当普通搜索越来越能听懂自然语言的时候，它和聊天机器人到底有什么区别？

Like, you know, as regular search becomes more natural language e, like, you know, how does it become different from a chatbot?

也许区别体现在回复方式上，但到时候，会不会人人都开始对着亚马逊的搜索框问问题？

And maybe it's in the response, but then, you know, does everyone start asking questions to the Amazon search bar?

这种变化会怎么改变用户的体验？

How does that sort of change the experience?

另一个让我好奇的是，他们对‘帮我买’这个新功能特别感兴趣，这个功能能帮用户找到亚马逊平台之外的商品，通过抓取网页或者其他方式来搜寻这些商品。

Another, you know, question I have is like they have been really interested in this new Buy For Me feature, which is helping shoppers find items that are not on Amazon's own site, but they, you know, will scrape the web or use other features to find out about these items.

然后你就可以购买那个不在亚马逊网站上的商品。

Then you can buy that item that isn't on Amazon's site.

他们会把你引导到其他网站，你可以在那里找到并下单购买。

They'll direct you to the other site and you can find it and buy it there.

我也很好奇，亚马逊究竟想把自己打造成互联网上的第一入口到什么程度？

And I'm also very curious to what degree does Amazon want to be sort of like the first stop on the Internet?

换句话说，就是想扮演谷歌常扮演的角色——成为你获取信息、发现产品的起点，哪怕最终买的是亚马逊以外的商品。这对他们来说有多重要？这又把他们放在了电商链条的哪个位置？

Kind of again, taking that role that Google's often had and being the place where you learn everything and you do product discovery, even if that means buying a product that's on Amazon and how important that is for them and where that puts them in the whole e commerce process.

没错。

Right.

最后一个问题是，凯瑟琳。

Last question for you, Catherine.

我们还不清楚他们是否以及何时会推出这类功能。

We don't know exactly if or when they are planning to roll out this type of feature.

目前只知道他们正在考虑这个可能性。

We just know that they are considering it at this point.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

我们确实不知道具体时间表，不过我得说，昨天还真有观察者注意到，当人们使用普通的亚马逊搜索栏时，界面不再只是弹出结果列表，而是变成了类似Rufus那种对话式的交互体验。

We don't know the exact timeline, though I will say, you know, yesterday actually, there was some observers who saw that like when they use the regular Amazon search bar, it would instead of just populating with a list of results, it would go into a more like chat chat, conversational Rufus like experience.

所以呢，我们后来也去问了亚马逊这方面的情况。

So, that was, you know, and, you know, we asked Amazon about it.

他们的回应就是，我们在测试一些功能，诸如此类的话。

They're like, you know, we're testing things, whatever.

我觉得这说明他们其实已经在考虑更混合的模式了。

So I think it shows they're, they're kind of already thinking of more hybrid modes.

毕竟，已经有人在实际使用中看到过这些功能了。

Like, you know, people have been seeing them in the wild.

对。

Right.

看来事情已经在进行了。

You know, so it seems like things are underway.

具体的产品路线图，我们还不清楚。

An exact product roadmap, we don't exactly know.

不过确实如此。

But yes.

没错。

Right.

太好了。

Great.

凯瑟琳，非常感谢你今天来做客。

Well, Catherine, I want to thank you for coming on.

这位是凯瑟琳·佩洛夫，我们《信息》杂志的亚马逊记者。

That is Catherine Perloff, our Amazon reporter here at The Information.

本周全程在法庭报道埃隆·马斯克与OpenAI诉讼案的，是《信息》的罗cket·德鲁。

The Information's Rocket Drew is covering the Elon Musk OpenAI trial from the courtroom all week long.

这是他对我们在周一庭审中格雷格·布罗克曼证词的最新更新。

Here is his latest update for us on OpenAI president Greg Brockman's testimony in court on Monday.

格雷格·布罗克曼在法庭上度过了艰难的一天。

Greg Brockman had a pretty rough day in court.

埃隆·马斯克的律师有机会向布罗克曼提问，他既是OpenAI的联合创始人，也是现任主席，问题直指他的个人财务状况，包括他在OpenAI的股份，以及他在与OpenAI有业务往来的公司中的持股。

A lawyer for Elon Musk had the chance to ask Brockman, who was a co founder of OpenAI and its current president, some tough questions about his personal finances, including his stake in OpenAI itself, but also his stakes in companies that have done business deals with OpenAI.

这些公司包括Stripe、Cerebras、Coreweave和Helion Energy。

That includes Stripe, Cerebris, Coreweave, and Helion Energy.

关于他在OpenAI的持股，马斯克的律师一上来就直接问他，布罗克曼承认，自己在OpenAI的个人持股价值大约在300亿美元左右。

As far as his stake in OpenAI, Musk's lawyer asked him right out of the gate, and he confirmed that his personal stake in OpenAI is worth in the neighborhood of $30,000,000,000.

这让他在这场诉讼中处于相当尴尬的境地，因为马斯克主张，布罗克曼因参与OpenAI而获得了不当利益，且OpenAI违反了慈善信托。

That puts Brockman in kind of an uncomfortable position in the lawsuit because Musk is arguing that Brockman has been unjustly enriched by his involvement with OpenAI and that OpenAI has breached a charitable trust.

OpenAI的运营方式更偏向营利性，而非非营利性，这在一定程度上背离了其最初的慈善承诺。

It's sort of broken some charitable obligations or commitments by operating more as a for profit than as a nonprofit.

根据OpenAI的创始文件，它并非为任何个人的私利而设立，这就让人对布罗克曼高达300亿美元的持股产生了疑问。

In its founding documents, OpenAI says that it's not organized for the private benefit of any individual, which raises questions about Brockman's $30,000,000,000 stake.

对此，OpenAI的律师回应说，大多数员工都持有股权，布罗克曼的股权比例是在他本人未参与的情况下决定的，而且OpenAI的慈善机构——OpenAI基金会——资金非常充裕。

Now in response, OpenAI's lawyers pointed out that most OpenAI employees do have equity, that Brockman's equity stake was decided without Brockman's input, and that OpenAI's charitable wing, the OpenAI Foundation, is very well funded.

但埃隆·马斯克的律师并不觉得这个说法有说服力。

Now Elon Musk's lawyer did not find that, argument very compelling.

他打了个比方，说这就像一个银行劫匪抢走了一百万，然后说：‘你看，银行里还剩几百万呢。’

He compared it to a bank robber taking a million dollars from a bank, but then saying, well, you have millions of dollars left.

尤其是，马斯克的律师对布罗克曼过去写的一本日记内容大做文章。

So, Musk's lawyer in particular had a field day with records of an old diary that Brockman kept.

在这本日记里，布罗克曼曾反复思考OpenAI营利性子公司的不同发展方向，还琢磨着，是和马斯克合作还是不合作，能更快让他赚到十亿美元。

And in this diary, Brockman is contemplating different paths forward for an OpenAI for profit subsidiary, and he muses about which path, a path with Elon or without, will more quickly take him to a billion dollars.

在法庭上，布罗克曼却说，对他来说，一千万美元就足够了。

And in court, Brockman suggested that a million dollars would sort of be sufficient for him.

于是马斯克的律师反问：既然十亿就够，那为什么不多拿点？差额是290亿美元，干脆全还给非营利组织好了。

So Musk's lawyer countered, if a billion dollars is sufficient, why not take the difference, call it $29,000,000,000, and return it to the nonprofit?

这番追问让布罗克曼陷入了非常尴尬的境地。

That turned into a pretty uncomfortable line of questioning for Brockman.

他看起来并没有准备好怎么回应，只好又说OpenAI的非营利组织资金非常充裕。

It didn't seem like he really had an answer to that prepared, but he did fall back on saying that the OpenAI nonprofit is very well resourced.

所以这一天真是够难熬的。

So it was a pretty tough day.

我觉得，无论是OpenAI这边还是马斯克这边，都在对方律师的质询下吃了亏。

I think both sides, the OpenAI side and Elon's side, have had a pretty have come out scathed by questioning from the other side's lawyers.

我们等着瞧吧，明天OpenAI的律师再问布罗克曼，能不能帮他把局面扳回来，让他看起来没那么被动。

So we'll see if OpenAI's lawyers questioning Brockman tomorrow are able to restore and rebuild his case and see if he comes out looking any better after that questioning.

接下来要关注的就是马斯克诉奥特曼案的进展了。

So that's what's up next in the Musk v.

奥特曼案。

Altman trial.

Coinbase表示，为了应对市场低迷、控制成本并提升AI效率，计划裁员14%。

Coinbase said that it plans to cut 14% of its workforce in order to manage costs amid the market downturn and improve efficiency using AI.

这一公告是在周四发布第一季度财报前公布的。

The announcement comes ahead of its first quarter earnings on Thursday.

我们的加密货币记者杨悦琪现在加入我们，谈谈她的看法。

Our crypto reporter, Yueqi Yang, joins me now for her reaction.

悦琪，欢迎再次回到节目。

Yueqi, welcome back to the show.

Coinbase 这次要裁员了。

So Coinbase is doing layoffs.

加密行业最近到处都在裁员。

We've seen layoffs across the crypto sector.

你对这次裁员有什么看法？

What was your reaction to this one?

是的。

Yeah.

Coinbase 说要裁掉14%的岗位，影响了公司大约700人。

So Coinbase, they said they're laying off 14% of jobs, and that's affecting about 700 people at the company.

这是一次规模不小的裁员。

It is a big sizable layoff.

但从员工总数的百分比来看，这次裁员其实比2022到2023年上一轮熊市时 Coinbase 的裁员幅度要小。

But as a percentage of the total number of employees, it's actually smaller than the layoffs that Coinbase did in the prior bear market in 2022 and 2023.

那时候，Coinbase 一共进行了两轮大规模裁员。

And at that time, Coinbase did two major rounds of layoff.

第一轮裁了18%，紧接着又裁了20%。

The first one was 18%, followed by another one that was 20%.

当时首席执行官布伦特·阿姆斯特朗在宣布第二轮裁员时说，回头来看，第一轮其实应该裁得更多。

And then when, CEO, Brent Armstrong, announced the second layoff back then, he said that that in hindsight, Coinbase should have cut further, in the first round.

所以我们现在在观望，这次裁员是不是今年的终点，还是说接下来还会根据市场情况进一步裁员。

So, we are waiting to see if this layoff is it for the rest of the year or if there might be even more layoffs coming, out depending on market conditions.

明白了。

Okay.

这挺有意思的，因为现在我们经历了两轮加密货币熊市，间隔也就几年吧。

So this is kind of interesting because we have these these two crypto bear markets, that have come sort of a couple I don't know.

反正就是这样。

Whatever.

大概隔了几年吧。

A couple years apart maybe.

那次熊市比这次更严重吗？

Was that bear market worse than this bar bear market?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

That's a great question.

我觉得2022年的熊市特点是FTX这样的大公司突然崩盘，还有好几家加密借贷平台接连出事。

I think that bear market in 2022 was characterized by dramatic blowup of big companies like FTX and a series of crypto lending platforms.

而现在的市场更像是慢慢冷下来了。

And I think in the current market, it's more like a quiet down market.

你没看到那种惊天动地的崩盘，但与此同时，普通投资者对加密货币的兴趣正在消退。

You don't see these dramatic collapses, but then at the same time, retail investors are just losing interest in crypto.

加密经济的很大一部分都萎靡了，你看那些不是比特币、不是以太坊、而是更小的代币，价格到现在都没能从上一轮熊市里恢复过来。

And a big part of the crypto economy, is down when you look at the token prices for a lot of these tokens that are not Bitcoin, not Ethereum, but the smaller ones, they just really haven't recovered from even the last bear market.

所以我认为加密行业正在经历一场根本性的转变。

So the I think the crypto industry is going through this fundamental change.

有些代币是否还能翻身，现在还不清楚。

It's unclear whether, some of these tokens will ever make a comeback.

这也会影响Coinbase的商业模式。

And so that's also going to affect Coinbase business model as well.

我问这个问题，是因为我觉得这能很好地引出下一个问题：这些裁员到底是加密熊市导致的，还是像布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗在给员工的信里说的那样，是AI驱动的？

Well and the the reason I'm asking that question is because I think it really sets us up to answer the next question really well, which is whether or not these cuts are bear market cuts, or if they are AI cuts, which is the reason that that Brian Armstrong cited in his note to employees.

我的意思是，现在CEO们想怎么说裁员理由都行，但你认为这真的是因为AI，还是只是拿AI当借口，实际还是因为加密熊市？

I mean, we live in a world where CEOs can say whatever they want in terms of why they're making cuts, but what's your assessment as to whether or not this is actually a true AI related cut or if it's just an excuse for the crypto bear market?

这明显是熊市裁员。

It's a bear market cut,

我知道。

and I

明白。

know it.

好的。

Okay.

行吧。

Alright.

就这样了。

That's it.

再见。

See

回头见。

you later.

数据很清楚：去年第四季度，Coinbase的收入下降了大约20%。

The number shows it because in the last quarter, the the the fourth quarter of twenty twenty five, Coinbase revenue was down about 20%.

它录得约6.7亿美元的净亏损。不过Coinbase还没公布第一季度的业绩。

It posted a net loss of about $670,000,000 So Coinbase hasn't reported the first quarter result yet.

如你所说，他们周四就要公布财报了，但一些同行比如Robinhood已经发过了。

As you mentioned, it's going to report earnings on Thursday, but some of its peers like Robinhood has already reported.

Robinhood表示，第一季度其加密货币收入几乎腰斩，所以我们知道财报数据不会好看。

And Robinhood said its crypto revenue was down by almost half in the first quarter, so we know that the numbers are not going to look good.

其他一些加密交易所，比如Gemini和Crypto.com，已经开始了裁员。

And, some of the other crypto exchanges like Gemini, like crypto.com have already started layoff.

所以，当前市场状况无疑是导致我们看到这些裁员的最关键因素。

So the market condition is definitely, the most important factor for the layoff that we're seeing here.

人工智能也是一个问题。

AI is also a issue.

Coinbase的首席执行官布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗一直大力鼓励员工使用AI工具。

Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong is very vocal about encouraging employees to use AIs.

他在今天的推文中宣布，公司不再设置纯粹的管理者，所有领导者都必须同时承担一线工作职责。

In today's tweet announcement, he said that there will no longer be any pure manager, meaning that every leader in the company will also be an individual contributor.

他还设想了一个未来：在Coinbase，可能会出现一个人组成的团队，每个人在AI辅助下同时承担工程师、设计师、产品负责人等多种角色。

And he also envisioned this future where there will be one person teams at Coinbase where people will act multiple functions, including being an engineer, bring being a designer, being a product person with the help of AI.

你有没有从公司内部或周围的人那里感受到，他们对这种结构性调整——我不是说裁员——是支持还是反对？

Do you have any sense from people at the company, around the company, whether or not they are in favor of this structural I'm not talking about the layoffs.

我说的是这种转变，从以前纯粹的管理者变成每个人都是个体贡献者，每个人都多承担一点责任。我在想这个问题，因为这不光是Coinbase一家公司这样，对吧？

I'm talking about this this change from, you know, having pure managers to everyone being an IC, an individual contributor, everyone having a little more ownership, I'm sort of thinking about this and I'm asking this question because it's not just Coinbase, right?

我的意思是，这种趋势会在整个科技行业普遍出现。

I mean, this is something that we will see across tech companies.

我想知道你有没有跟其他人聊过，员工们是喜欢这种变化，还是更倾向于留在团队里工作？

I wonder if you've talked to any people at all about whether or not employees like this or if they kind of liked the you know, being part of a team maybe?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得Coinbase的CEO自己也提到过，他去年就重新回到公司的代码库，开始用AI工具亲自写代码了。

I think Coinbase CEO himself started to talk about how he even he, as a CEO, has returned to the code base of Coinbase last year and started to do some coding himself again using AI tools.

所以这是一种自上而下的做法。

So it is a top down top down approach.

每个人都得亲自动手干起来。

Everyone needs to get their hands dirty.

从员工的角度来看，这次裁员大概并不让人意外。

And I think from employees' perspective, this layoff probably isn't too much of a surprise.

大家都明白市场一直不太景气。

Everyone knows the market has been in poor condition.

他们觉得还会再来一波吗？

Do they think there might be even more?

上次不是说，熊市的时候已经裁了两轮，还提到其实还能裁得更多。

Because last time, you just said the bear market, they did two rounds of cuts, and then they said we could have cut even more.

这让人担心吗？

Is that a concern?

你觉得还会进一步裁员吗？

Do you expect maybe there to be more cuts?

这肯定是个隐患，但也在一定程度上取决于市场走势，而我们谁也说不准会怎么发展。

I think it's definitely going to be a concern, and it depends on market conditions in part, which we don't know how it will play out.

我觉得，等Coinbase公布财报时，肯定会被问到：你们会不会明确承诺达到某个盈利水平，或者确保公司能挺过眼下这一轮又一轮的周期。

And I I I think this is something that Coinbase will be asked about when they do report earnings to whether they will commit to a certain level of profitability or to be able to to make sure that the company can can outlast the number of cycles that we're seeing.

我想换个话题，聊聊这周另一条加密货币新闻。

I wanna pivot to talk a little bit about another piece of crypto news this week.

安德森·霍洛维茨刚刚推出了他们的最新加密基金。

So Andreessen Horowitz has raised its latest crypto fund.

规模刚超过20亿美元。

It is just over $2,000,000,000.

你对他们这次募资有什么看法？

What was your reaction to this fund that they raised?

我觉得这次的规模比他们2022年募的上一期基金小多了。

I think the size stood out for me is much smaller than the prior fund they raised in 2022.

差不多只有一半。

It's about half the size.

那时候他们募了45亿美元，创了纪录。

So back then, they raised a $4,500,000,000 fund.

那是在2022年加密市场崩盘前发生的。

That was a record size, and it happened right before the crypto crashes occurred in 2022.

我觉得他们今天发布的新基金公告里也提到，当前市场正处于一个相对平静的阶段。

I think even in the blog post that they announced the new fund today, they alluded to the fact that the market condition, the market cycle is currently on a quieter part.

他们提到，想投资那些在开发日常应用场景产品的人，尽管现在这些项目没太多人关注。

And they mentioned that they wanted to invest in founders that are building products for everyday uses even though, right now, they don't get as much attention.

我觉得他们很清楚，现在投资者的兴趣大多从加密转向了人工智能，但他们似乎认为这未必是坏事——因为这样反而能让他们更专注，也能在没人注意的时候发现优秀的创始人。

So I think they are pretty aware of the fact that, a lot of the interest from investors have moved on from crypto to AI, but they seem to suggest that that's not necessarily a bad thing because it allows them to stay focused and to also capture to capture and identify good founders at a time when they don't get attention.

这让我觉得，跟汉风资本本周刚宣布的最新基金相比，似乎有点不一样。

And and it strikes me that that perhaps is a little bit of a contrast to the way that Han Ventures positioned their latest fund that they also announced this week, I believe.

他们还是说专注于加密领域。

I mean, they still said that they're focused on crypto.

但他们也提到，稍微放宽了视野，想抓住人工智能和代理技术与加密交汇的机会。

They said they're sort of opening the aperture a little bit to take advantage of where AI and agents could intersect with crypto.

但听起来，安德里森·霍罗维茨的意思是，我们要更深入地扎根加密领域。

But it sounds like Andreessen is saying, we're we're going much deeper into crypto.

我们的目标是先找到最优秀的加密创始人。

We're finding the best crypto founders first.

这才是我们这次的核心目标。

That that's the what the goal is here.

我觉得对于安德森来说，加密货币和人工智能的交汇点同样是个重点。

I think for Andreessen, the intersection between crypto and AI is also an important focus.

他们在博客里提到，未来代理支付会越来越普遍，互联网也将由代理来驱动。

In their blog, they did allude to the fact that agentic payments will become more of a thing, and the Internet will be run by agents in the future.

但他们并没有具体说明加密货币和人工智能的交汇会是什么样子。

They didn't really spell out specific examples of how this intersection between crypto and AI will look like.

这更像是一个宏观的、总体方向的开端。

It's kind of like a high level, big picture start.

所以我们很期待看到这具体会怎么发展。

So, we look forward to seeing, how exactly that will pan out.

很好。

Great.

Yueqi，非常感谢你今天来参加。

Well, Yueqi, I wanna thank you for coming on.

这位是《信息报》的加密货币记者杨悦琪。

That is Yueqi Yang, our crypto reporter here at The Information.

SpaceX 一直强调 xAI 在数据中心建设上的速度和成本优势，但《The Information》的独家报道发现，这些优势背后藏着一些隐性成本。

SpaceX has been highlighting xAI's speed and cost advantage in its data center build out compared to rival AI labs, but exclusive reporting from the information found those advantages come with some hidden costs.

我的同事 Theo Wayt 和 Valita Pao 今天发布了这篇报道。

My colleagues Theo Wayt and Valita Pao published the story today.

Theo 现在连线我们，来分享他了解到的情况。

Theo joins me now to share with us what he knows.

Theo，欢迎再次做客节目。

Theo, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你来。

It's great to have you here.

嗨，Akash。

Hey, Akash.

那你说说，目前关于 xAI 的数据中心建设，我们都知道些什么？

So tell us what we know about xAI's data center build out efforts.

xAI 这家公司自称在做事方式上，跟其他 AI 公司和数据中心建设方都大不一样。

XAI is this company that pitches themselves as doing things very differently from other AI companies and other data center builders.

首先，他们居然选择自己建数据中心，这一点就很不寻常。

The first you know, aspect of that is that is that they even chose to build their own data centers in their in the first place.

你看OpenAI、Anthropic这些大型AI实验室，基本都让别人来建。

Like, you look at OpenAI, Anthropic, other, you know, large AI labs, they're largely letting other companies do the building.

但XAI是自己动手建的。

XAI is building their own.

在SpaceX收购XAI之后，他们在S-1文件里多次提到一个指标，叫每兆瓦的建设成本。

And in SpaceX's x one s one, sorry, after acquiring xAI, they talk quite a bit about this metric called price per megawatt in data center construction.

我们看到的S-1文件草稿里提到，现在属于SpaceX的XAI，每兆瓦成本是270万美元。

And the draft of the s one that we've seen says that SpaceX's or sorry.

而行业平均水平是1230万美元，差距非常明显。

XAI's, which is now part of SpaceX, xAI's cost per megawatt is $2,700,000 per megawatt compared to a industry standard of 12.3.

也就是说，他们能以更低的价格获得算力资源。

So cheaper cheaper access to compute.

差不多是别人建数据中心成本的四分之一。

Like, 25% of the cost of what other people cost of what other people pay to build data centers.

但xAI并没有明确定义这个术语。

But xAI didn't define that term precisely.

他们到底是怎么算的，现在还不清楚。

It's unclear exactly how they measured it.

这个数字里头，可能有些地方是他们自己灵活处理过的。

There could be some, you know, creative decisions being made about what to include in that number.

关键是，xAI的意思是：我们比竞争对手更会省钱，因为我们更懂怎么搞。

But the point is xAI is saying we know how to do this a lot cheaper than our competitors because we're crafty.

这种本事，体现在方方面面。

And that, you know, comes out in a lot of ways.

明白了。

Okay.

原来如此，挺有心机的。

So crafty.

能再详细说说吗？

So expand on that a bit more.

xAI的这种‘巧妙’做法背后到底是什么？

What what is behind xAI's craftiness here?

他们过去两年里用了很多临时、应急的手段来让数据中心上线。

So they they're using a lot of kind of, like, temporary and improvised measures, you could say, to to get their data centers online over the past couple of years.

比如用移动燃气发电机给数据中心供电，这争议挺大的，因为会产生空气污染，而且这些发电机本来是为偏远地区临时使用设计的，现在却把它们部署在离

That includes, you know, using these mobile gas generators to power the data centers, which has been quite controversial because they, you know, produce air pollution and and are, you know, kind of meant for temporary use in remote areas, and they're running them close

城市

to a

城市。

city.

他们做的另一件事就是依赖这些移动冷却设备，基本上看起来就像半挂卡车拖车，他们在数据中心外面停了一百多台这样的设备，用来给里面的服务器降温。

The other kind of thing that they've been doing is relying on these mobile chillers, which basically look like like, you know, semi truck trailers, and they just have, like, over a 100 of them kind of parked outside the data center to cool the the servers in there.

这些也都是临时措施。

And those are also a temporary measure.

总的来说，你知道，所有这些临时的、不寻常的设置加起来，意味着有更多可能出现问题的地方。

And overall, you know, you have, like, all of these temporary unusual setups that kind of add up to a lot more, you know, potential places where things can go wrong.

据我了解，这导致这些数据中心的故障次数比那些花更长时间建设的标准数据中心要多得多。

And my understanding is that's contributed to this the data center sites having a lot more outages than would be standard at a, you know, a a data center that took a lot more time to stand up.

所以他们搞出这些临时拼凑的方案，就是为了更快地让这些数据中心运行起来。

So so they put together these these improvised solutions to get these data centers up and running faster.

你也报道过不少这类项目吧？

And you you've also I mean, you've you've covered a number of these what?

有Colossus一号，还有Colossus二号，我听说现在正在建。

There's Colossus one and then Colossus two, I think, is it it's being built at at this point now.

我这么说对吗？是已经建好了，还是还在建？

Is that do I have that right, or is it built?

有一栋楼差不多建好了，另一栋则完全还没动工。

There's one building of it that's like, mostly done, and then there's another building of it that is not done at all.

明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

但关键是，这些是 xAI 的数据中心。

So so but but the point is, I mean, these are the xAI data centers.

所以他们在 SpaceX 的上市材料里宣传的是，因为用了这些临时方案，我们能更快地让这些数据中心投入运行。

And so what they're touting here in the SpaceX IPO is that we can get these up up and running faster because we have these improvised solutions.

我们有发电机。

We've got generators.

我们有卡车。

We've got trucks.

而你的报道显示，这些临时方案有时候并不像传统建设方式那样可靠，这其实也挺能理解的。

And what your reporting shows is that sometimes, these improvised solutions don't act aren't actually as reliable, understandably, as if they were to have taken a little more of a, you know, I guess traditional approach to to build

不过得说清楚，他们在上市材料里并没有吹嘘这些临时措施。

Well, to be clear, they're not touting the the temporary measures in the IPO.

上市宣传的重点是，一切都很完美、很出色，这你懂的。

That's based more on my The IPO pitch is, you know, that everything is amazing and perfect, obviously.

对。

Right.

所以，好吧，他们把数据中心运行起来了。

So, okay, so they get the data centers up and running.

那他们能用上这些计算资源吗？

Do they get access to the compute?

你文章里另一个有意思的地方是，你提到他们对计算资源的使用效率，也就是他们建了这么多算力，到底用得怎么样？

Another part of your story that was interesting though was you talked a little bit about the utilization of compute and how well they are using all the compute that they've built capacity for?

能给我们详细说说这个吗？

Talk a little bit about that for us.

是的。

Yeah.

这个信息其实要归功于我的同事阿妮萨，她拿到了这份备忘录。里面提到，有一位被派到 xAI 的 SpaceX 高管叫迈克尔·尼科尔斯，他发了一封备忘录，讲了一个内部指标——显示 xAI 到底多高效地在使用那些芯片。这些芯片可是他们花大价钱买来装进数据中心的，但这个指标低得让人尴尬，说明 xAI 得想办法提高利用率。

So credit goes to to my colleague, Anissa, actually, for for getting this this memo, but there was a SpaceX executive who's been installed at xAI named Michael Nichols who kind of sent this memo about this this metric this internal metric basically showing, you know, how efficiently xAI is using the chips that it has, that it has spent, you know, a ton of money to to get in its data centers and said that the the this metric is embarrassingly low, and xAI needs to figure out how to how to use it better.

这件事之后，数据中心团队和计算团队里不少管理层都陆续离职了。

And in the process, you know, a ton of the leadership on the data center team and the computing team has has left the company since made that push.

你文章里另一个有意思的部分是，有没有出现什么问题？你已经在文章里写清楚了，我希望能再跟你确认一下。

The the other part of your story that was interesting is are there any Well, you spelt it out in the story, and I'm hoping you can explain to us here.

我是说，他们这么做事，背后的安全隐患是什么？

I mean, what are the safety implications behind doing things the way they have?

是的。

Yeah.

在报道这个故事的过程中，我了解到几起事件，涉及xAI员工或现场承包商，有人遭遇事故，或者对工作条件提出过投诉。

So, in the process of reporting on the story, I found out about a few different incidents where you know, xAI employees have either, you know, been involved in accidents or made other complaints about working conditions, employees of xAI or contractors working on the site.

今年一月，有一名工人在使用一种叫熔接机的设备时出了事，那是一种功率很大的工业设备，用来焊接管道。

In January of this year, there was a worker who was using this, device called a fusion machine that is basically this, like, really powerful industrial, machine that fuses pipes together.

他手指被卡在机器里，压得严重，最后不得不截肢。

And he got his finger stuck in the machine, and it crushed it, and it was amputated.

事故发生后，为xAI工作的承包商表示，他们增加了新的安全措施，比如规定在设备运行时，必须有至少两人确认没人把手放在机器里。

And following that incident, the contractor that works for xAI, you know, said that they implemented additional safety measures, including, like, basically having multiple people verify that nobody's hand is in this device when it's operational.

上个月，现场还出现了其他投诉，说是有人在室内使用发电机，导致员工身体不适。

And then last month, there were also some complaints at the site about, like, generators being used inside that made employees sick.

去年秋天，还发生过一起事故，有两个人触电了。

And then last fall, there was a incident where a couple of people got electrocuted.

所以说，像这种事，很难说清楚哪些只是建筑行业里常见的意外，毕竟建筑本身就有很高的危险性。

So, I mean, with this kind of thing, it can be hard to say, like, what is just a typical, you know, accident in the course of construction because construction is inherently a dangerous field.

但像手指被截断和空气质量这些问题，xAI 或它的承包商事后都承诺要改进，这说明确实有些问题需要他们正视。

But with some of the you know, with both the finger loss thing and the air quality issue, like xAI or its contractors have, you know, committed to doing things differently following that, which would, you know, indicate something is going on that they had to address.

数据中心是规模庞大、目标远大的项目，想赶工期，难免会出问题。

So data centers are, you know, very large, ambitious projects, and trying to do them really quickly can have, you know, downsides.

没错。

Right.

在你走之前，Theo，从宏观角度看，你接下来打算深入挖掘哪些方向？你认为哪些话题最值得继续跟进？

Big picture for you, Theo, before we let you go, I mean, as you think about questions that you have to push the story ahead, what are the next topics that you're interested in pursuing on your beat?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得对 xAI 来说，最大的疑问还是：他们到底怎么靠这些数据中心赚钱？

I think that with with xAI, right, there there is still this question of how on earth they're going to make money from from these data centers.

xAI 的收入微乎其微，现在却成了整个公司最大的资金黑洞。

Like, xAI's revenue is just not significant, and it's a gigantic, you know, source of of burn for the combined company now.

没错。

Right.

他们之前和Cursor签过一个协议，说Cursor会用xAI数据中心的一些算力，但这里面还有很多不清楚的地方。

There's still kinds of like, you know, they had this deal they announced with Cursor where, you know, Cursor is going to use some of the compute from xAI's data centers, but there's a ton of ambiguities around that.

我觉得对SpaceX上市的投资者来说，这依然是个巨大的疑问：

I think it's just still going to be a gigantic question for investors in the SpaceX IPO that, you know,

所以，问题还是出在收入端。

it's not So, the the revenue side of all this.

我的意思是，你再怎么降低成本，如果没人买产品，那也是白搭。

I mean, you can you can bring down the cost as much as you want, but if if nobody's buying the products, then that's that's another issue.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

Theo，非常感谢你今天来做客。

Well, Theo, I wanna thank you for coming on.

这位是西奥·韦特，我们《信息》杂志负责报道马斯克的记者。

That is Theo Wayt, our Elon Musk reporter here at The Information.

SpaceX和Cursor的这笔潜在收购交易，让很多人感到意外。

The SpaceX Cursor deal for a potential acquisition surprised a lot of people.

在AI编程竞争如此激烈的环境下，大公司越做越大，初创企业该怎么脱颖而出，这是个关键问题。

And in a world where AI coding is fiercely competitive, the big question is how do startups differentiate themselves in this environment as the big are getting bigger?

接下来我们邀请到AI编程公司Warp的创始人兼首席执行官扎克·劳埃德，听听他的看法。

I wanna bring on Zach Lloyd, founder and CEO at AI coding company Warp, for his point of view on this.

扎克，欢迎再次做客我们的节目。

Zach, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢你的邀请，阿卡什。

Thanks for having me, Akash.

能来这儿真的很开心。

Great to be here.

我想聊聊Warp，但你先简单说说，看到SpaceX和Cursor宣布合作的时候，你第一反应是什么？不管现在怎么称呼这个关系。

So I wanna talk about Warp, but tell me very quickly, what was your reaction to the to the SpaceX Cursor deal announcement, partnership, whatever we wanna call it at this point.

嗯，有几点吧。

I mean, a couple things.

首先，这充分说明AI编程这个市场真的火起来了。

I guess one, it really speaks to just like how AI coding has taken off as a market.

能开出这样的价格，说明AI编程公司已经很有价值了。

That's a credible price for a AI coding company.

而且Cursor确实挺靠谱的。

And, I mean, Cursor makes sense.

规模非常大。

Very, very big.

从我的角度看，看到另一家AI编程公司跟模型实验室合作甚至被收购，还挺有意思的。

From, like, my perspective, it's interesting to see another one of these AI coding companies sort of partner or maybe be acquired by a model lab.

这说明现在行业里，模型实验室正在加速整合，大玩家之间的竞争越来越明显。

So it's it's you see sort of consolidation amongst the model labs as as the big players in the space right now.