Inside Kalshi’s $4B+ in Annualized Revenue, Chip Infrastructure Startup Eliyan Hits Unicorn Status

欢迎大家收看《信息》的TITV节目。

Welcome everyone to the information's TITV.

我是Akash Pasricha。

My name is Akash Pasricha.

今天是8月12日，星期三。

It is Wednesday, August 12.

今天节目中，《信息》独家报道，Kalshi因世界杯投注而创下营收纪录。

Today on the show, the information exclusively reported that Kalshi hit record revenue boosted by World Cup betting.

我们将深入分析这些数字对公司发展势头意味着什么。

We'll take a closer look at what the numbers mean for the company's momentum.

接着，我们会和两位芯片基础设施创业者聊聊AI建设的现状。

We'll then talk to a pair of chip infrastructure entrepreneurs about the current state of the AI build out.

接下来，我们有一条独家消息，关于前白宫加密货币主管David Sacks最近的动向。

Next up, we have a scoop about what former White House crypto czar David Sacks is up to these days.

节目最后，我们会讨论美国政府一个重要部门如何削减Salesforce开支。

We'll close out the show with a discussion on how a key US government agency is cutting its Salesforce bills.

今天的节目会很精彩，咱们直接开始吧。

It's going to be a great show, so let's get right on into it.

The Information 独家报道了 Kalshi 最新的财务数据。

The information has exclusive reporting on Kalshi's latest financials.

我的同事杨月琪报道了这个故事。

My colleague, Yueqi Yang, reported that story.

我想请她来聊聊最新情况。

I want to bring her on for the latest.

月琪，欢迎再次来到节目。

Yueqi, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

嗨，Akash。

Hey, Akash.

好的。

Okay.

那关于Kalshi最新的财务状况，我们了解到了什么？

So what do we know about Kalshi's latest financials?

Kalshi的年化收入已经超过了40亿美元，这主要得益于我们的世界杯赛事合约，那是在6月和7月进行的。

So Kalshi's annualized revenue has surpassed $4,000,000,000 and this is largely driven by event contracts our World Cup game that happened in June and July.

而且这个业务增长非常快，因为年化收入已经是我们两个月前报道时的两倍了，当时6月份的年化收入超过了20亿美元。

And this is a really fast growing business because the annualized revenue is already doubled the level that we reported about just two months ago when it reached more than $2,000,000,000 annualized revenue in June.

这些财务数字公布是因为Kalshi目前正在就融资进行高级谈判，估值达到了400亿美元。

And the financial numbers are coming out because Kalshi is currently in advanced talks to raise funding at a $40,000,000,000 valuation.

400亿。

40,000,000,000.

那上一次估值是什么时候？

And so and when was the what was the last valuation that

它达到了多少？

it fetched?

5月份，Kalshi以220亿美元的估值筹集了大约10亿美元。

In May, Kalshi raised about $1,000,000,000 at a $22,000,000,000 valuation.

所以实际上，在短短三个月左右的时间里，他们的估值几乎翻了一番。

So effectively, within just a short spend of three months or so, they're nearly doubling its valuation.

所以世界杯带来的这种势头，我是说，世界杯每四年才举办一次。

And so the momentum that it's seen from the World Cup I mean, World Cup happens once every four years.

那你跟人聊下来，大家是什么感觉？

So what's the sense among people you talk to?

这种势头能持续下去吗？

Is the momentum going to last?

还是只是一时的热度？

Was this just a blip?

我是说，现在的交易数据看起来怎么样？

I mean, how is the trading data looking right now?

对，这个问题问得很好。

Yeah, this is a great question.

当我们看Kalshi和Polymarket的每周交易量时，它已经从世界杯期间的高峰水平下降了。

And when we look at the weekly trading volume for both Kalshi and Polymarket, it has dropped since peak level during World Cup.

所以世界杯结束后，我们确实看到活动有所减少。

So we do see a slowdown in activities after World Cup concluded.

但到了秋天，还有几个大型活动要来了。

But in the fall, there are a few big events coming up as well.

比如NFL比赛，还有中期选举也要到了。

There's going to be NFL games, and the midterm elections is going to come up as well.

那盈利能力怎么样？

Now, what about profitability?

你们有没有关于成本方面的报道？

Do you have any reporting on the costs here?

这个问题问得好。

That's a great question.

关于公司的利润，我们没有具体数字，但知道Kalshi在六月份花了不少钱，比如在营销上投入很大，因为他们想趁世界杯期间，直接和零售客户建立联系。

So, we don't have number on the profits for the company, but we do know that Kalshi is incurring a lot of expenses for the month of June, for example, they spent a lot of money on marketing expense, and this is because they wanted to really build up a direct relationship with retail customers as they were watching World Cup.

如果你看了世界杯的比赛，可能会注意到Kalshi的名字出现在体育场、电视和在线广告上。

If you watch any games of World Cup, you might have noticed that Kalshi's name was on the stadium, on TV, on online advertisement.

这些就是他们为了成为家喻户晓的品牌而不得不承担的营销费用。

And these are the kind of marketing expenses that they had to incur in order to make sure that they become a household name.

你的报道中有一个点让我很感兴趣，就是Kalshi和Robinhood的合作关系。

Now, one of the pieces in your story that intrigued me was the partnership that Kalshi has with Robinhood.

这个合作现在进展如何？对它的收入增长有多大影响，不管是正面还是负面的？

What's the status of that partnership and how much has that affected its revenue growth, either positively or negatively, I guess?

Robinhood也提供预测市场。

So Robinhood also offers prediction markets.

过去，Robinhood主要把自己客户的订单送到Kalshi交易所。

And in the past, Robinhood mostly sends its orders from its own customers to Kalshi exchange.

大约一年前，Robinhood占了Kalshi交易量的50%。

And just about a year ago, Robinhood made up about 50% of the trading volume on Kalshi.

不过，这两家公司现在对彼此的依赖越来越小了。

However, the two companies have become less dependent on each other over time.

这部分是因为Robinhood现在把更多订单送到了它和SIEG共同支持的交易所Rocera。

And this is in part because Robinhood has now directed more of its orders to exchange that it's backed along with SIEG called Rocera.

第二季度的最新数据显示，现在Robinhood在Kalshi的交易量中占比不到20%。

And the latest data in the second quarter showed that Robinhood now only makes up less than 20% of the trading volume on Kalshi.

现在不到20%了。

Now, less than 20%.

当然，另一个玩家就是Polymarket。

And the other player here of course is Polymarket.

Kalshi的收入和Polymarket相比怎么样？

How does the revenue here for Kalshi compare to Polymarket?

Polymarket在Kalshi面前一直在失去市场份额。

So, Polymarket has been losing market share against Kalshi.

过去，Polymarket其实领先了很长时间。

In the past, Polymarket was actually front runner for a long time.

Polymarket曾经是最大的预测市场。

Polymarket was the biggest prediction market.

不过，他们进入美国市场的速度比Kalshi慢，现在Polymarket的市场份额已经落后于Kalshi了。

However, they're slower than Kalshi in moving into The US market and poly markets market share is now trailing behind Kalshi.

你在报道里稍微提到了这个业务的法律和监管方面。

Now, you talked a little bit about the legal aspect and the regulatory aspect of the business in your story.

那这些因素未来会怎样影响它的收入情况呢？

How could that affect its revenue profile going forward?

对于包括Kalshi在内的预测市场来说，一个重大的法律和监管不确定性在于它们的体育赛事合约。

So a big legal and regulatory uncertainty for prediction markets, including Kalshi, is their sports event contracts.

目前有几起诉讼正在进行中，州监管机构指控像Kalshi这样的预测市场在提供非法赌博业务。

There are a few lawsuits currently ongoing with state regulators that alleged that prediction markets such as Kalshi were offering illegal gambling operations.

外界普遍预期这些诉讼最终会打到最高法院，由最高法院来决定是州政府有权监管这些合约，还是联邦监管机构——也就是Kalshi和其他预测市场持有牌照的CFTC——有权监管这些产品。

And it is widely expected that these lawsuits will eventually go to the Supreme Court, which will decide whether the states have the right to supervise these contracts or the federal regulator, the CFTC, which Kalshi and other prediction markets have a license from, will be able to regulate these offerings.

但与此同时，我们也注意到一个新趋势，就是Kalshi可能得向某些州缴税。

But meanwhile, we're also noticing this new trend, which is Kalshi could potentially be paying taxes to some of these states.

这对Kalshi来说会是另一种结果，既能让他们继续在美国运营，但会侵蚀他们的利润，因为他们得向州政府缴税。

And that will be an alternative outcome for Kalshi, which will allow them to keep operating in The States, but it will eat into their profit because they will have to pay revenue, pay taxes to States.

比如在北卡罗来纳州，上个月通过了一项法律，对该州用户产生的预测市场手续费收入征收6%的税。

And in North Carolina, for example, the state last month passed a law charging a 6% tax on prediction market fee revenue generated from users in the state.

当然，十一月就要举行选举了。

And of course, we have the election coming up in November.

所以，我猜人们肯定期待这些平台会迎来又一次增长，也许像世界杯那样的大幅增长？

So, I I guess people must be expecting another bump, a World Cup sized bump maybe, if you will, for these platforms?

嗯，我觉得中期选举主要是美国国内的事情，而世界杯是

Well, see, I think midterm elections are very much a US event, whereas world

全球性的

type

全球性事件。

global event.

但美国市场对Kalshi来说很重要。

But US marketing is important for Kalshi.

好的。

Great.

好的，Yueqi，感谢你来做客。

Well, Yueqi, I want to thank you for coming on.

这位是杨悦琪，我们The Information的加密货币记者。

That is Yueqi Yang, our crypto reporter, here at The Information.

一家新的芯片网络公司已经达到了独角兽地位。

A new chip networking company has hit unicorn status.

几周前，Eliyan在由Seligman Ventures领投的一轮融资中筹集了1.45亿美元，估值达到10亿美元。

Eliyan, a few weeks ago, raised $145,000,000 in a funding round led by Seligman Ventures at a $1,000,000,000 valuation.

最近，网络领域已经成为AI投资的热点。

Networking has become a hotbed for AI funding lately.

我想请两位联合创始人Ramin Farjadrad和Patrick Sohelli来聊聊芯片行业。

I want to bring on co founders Ramin Farjadrad and Patrick Sohelli to talk more about the chip sector.

Ramin和Patrick，欢迎来到节目。

Ramin and Patrick, welcome to the show.

很高兴你们能来。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢你们的邀请。

Thanks for having us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

那么，拉明，我想先请你谈谈。

So, Ramin, I want to start with you.

你在网站上把你的产品描述为一种芯片到芯片、芯片到芯片、机架到机架的芯粒互连技术。

You describe your product on your website as a die to die, chip to chip, and rack to rack chiplet interconnect technology.

用简单的话来说，这到底是什么意思？

What exactly does that mean in simple terms?

基本上，人工智能正处于一个转折点，现在它变成了一个系统问题，而不再只是芯片问题。

So basically, AI is in a transition point that is now becoming a system problem, not a chip problem anymore.

而要真正实现正确的系统解决方案，连接性就成了瓶颈。

And to basically enable a right system solution, connectivity becomes the bottleneck.

Eliyan就是为了解决下一代AI系统的这个连接挑战而成立的，让系统更高效，并最大化利用那些多年来各家公司一直努力优化的计算能力。

And Eliyan is set to solve this connectivity challenge for the next generation AI systems to make it more efficient and maximize the usage of the compute that for years companies have been trying to optimize.

下一个挑战就是连接性。

The next challenge is the connectivity.

我们的目标是从头开始思考，用正确的方法来解决这个互联问题。

Our goal is to think from ground up to solve this connectivity solution with the right approach.

那么帕特里克，芯片组在这里是什么意思？

So Patrick, chiplets, what does that mean in the context here?

这些芯片是连接其他芯片来组成一个机架，还是说这到底是怎么运作的？

These are chips that connect other chips to make up a rack or how does this actually work?

在以前的做法中，我们有芯片，基本上是封装在里面的半导体设备。

In the kind of the old way of doing things, we had chips, basically semiconductor devices that's sitting inside of a package.

它们是单片的，也就是说一个封装里只有一个芯片或一个芯片粒。

And they were monolithic, meaning one chip or one chiplet, if you will, inside of a package.

过去几年发生的变化是，由于摩尔定律的限制或增长停滞，你无法在更短的时间内放入更多的晶体管来进一步扩大芯片。

And what has transpired over the last few years is given Moore's laws limitations or lack of growth, you can't put more transistors in less time to and grow the chips any further.

所以现在你通过在一个封装里放更多的芯片粒来创建并行架构。

So now you've gone to create a parallel architecture by putting more chiplets inside of a package.

每一个这样的芯片粒就叫做芯片粒。

And each of those are called chiplets.

我们得在封装内部把它们连起来，然后还得像以前那样把封装连起来。

We have to connect them together inside the package, then you have to connect the package together like you have in the past.

而且因为要把它们装进服务器机架里，这些机架现在也需要互相连接。

And because you're putting them into racks on servers, those racks now need to be connected together.

有时候这些服务器机架还得连在一起，我们的技术就是解决所有这些问题的。

And sometimes those server racks have to get connected together, And we address all of those with our technology.

那么，Ramin，你们是在和博通这样的大型网络芯片公司竞争吗？

So, Ramin, are you guys competing with sort of the big networking chip companies like Broadcom then?

基本上是的。

Pretty much, yes.

毕竟，我们都在做连接解决方案。

After all, we're all building connectivity solutions.

作为一家初创公司，我们的目标就是始终提前思考行业会面临的问题，他们会遇到的瓶颈，然后提前想出正确的解决方案。

And our goal is to, as a startup, to always think ahead what the problems that industry will face, what the walls they will hit, and come up with the right solutions ahead of time.

就像我常说的，我们要在球落下的地方等着，而不是追着球跑。

Effectively, as I say, is be where the ball will land rather than chasing the ball.

这就是为什么我们能在解决方案上领先他们好几年，无论是针对超大规模数据中心还是任何正在构建AI解决方案的公司。

And that's how we can be years ahead of them in coming up with their solutions for the hyperscalers for anyone that is building their AI solutions.

那么，Eliyan相对于博通的优势在哪里？

So, is the advantage then for Eliyan against Broadcom?

你觉得你们为什么能打败他们？

Why do you think you can beat them?

就是因为我们开发的一些解决方案或技术走在了前面。

Just being ahead in some of the solutions or technologies that we have developed.

比如，我们很多年前就开始做die到die的连接，那时候整个行业还没关注这个领域。

For example, we started from die to die many years ago before industry had any focus on this.

现在，我们拥有最快的die到die，带宽最高，功耗最低。

Today, we have the fastest die to die, highest banded die to die at the lowest power effectively.

而且我们把这个优势一直延伸到机架到机架，提供最高效的解决方案，在功耗和可靠性方面都是如此。随着这些AI集群开始扩展，你需要把GPU连接起来，而且距离更远，不像以前那样在同一个托盘或机架内，人们都在寻找铜缆的替代品，因为铜缆传输距离有限。

And also extending that all the way to rack to rack, having the most efficient solution, both in terms of power reliability and effectively as these AI pods start to grow, and you have to connect these GPUs together over a longer distance as opposed to within the same tray or within the same rack, people are looking for a replace for copper that has limited distance.

我们开发了一种光解决方案，它具备铜互连的所有优点，比如可靠性、功耗和成本，但传输距离远得多，可以连接这些AI系统。

And we've come up with an optical solutions that is provides all the features of a copper interconnect in terms of reliability, power, cost, but much longer reach to connect these AI.

所以，AI基本上就是把所有机架连在一起。

So, AI basically racks all together.

对。

Right.

Patrick，我想稍微退一步来看。

Patrick, I want to take a step back a bit.

我们在这个节目里已经聊过一些关于内存紧张的问题。

We have talked a little bit about the memory crunch on this show.

说到内存紧张，大家都把它当成一个单一的问题，就是内存紧张，大家都在应对，价格在上涨。

And the memory crunch, mean, people talk about it as just a single thing, there is a memory crunch and people are dealing with it, prices are going up.

你们对这个领域非常了解。

You guys are very close to the space.

你觉得内存紧张这个问题里，有没有一些大家没怎么提到的细微差别？

Are there nuances to this memory crunch that you think people aren't talking about enough?

这到底是在争抢同一种资源，还是有不同的动态需要我们关注？

Is this all the same resource are people trying to get after, or are there different dynamics here that we should be paying attention to?

这个问题问得好。

It's a good question.

我觉得现在全球市场实际上处于一个非常紧张的瓶颈期。

I think the world is effectively in a very tight bottleneck, if you will.

有三家供应商已经满负荷运转了。

There's three suppliers that are at capacity.

而且大部分产能都被少数几个大客户买走了。

There's a concentration of very few customers that are buying most of that capacity.

照目前的情况看，短期内不会缓解。

And just the way things are going, it's not letting up anytime soon.

你知道，建一个晶圆厂来生产这些设备，需要非常精细的工艺和非常具体的规格，要在大规模量产中达到这些要求，难度很大。

You know, creating a fab that manufactures these devices at very fine geometries and very specific specifications that are just tough to hit in a large volume scalable manufacturing kind of a way is not easy.

这需要好几年时间，投入几十亿甚至上百亿美元。

It takes years, multiple millions of billions of dollars to build them.

所以三星、SK海力士和美光都在拼命努力，想要达到这个目标，满足行业的需求。

So Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron are working really hard to kind of get there and meet the industry's demand.

我觉得除了大家都在拼命追赶行业对AI系统那种无止境的需求之外，也没什么太多别的细节了。

I can't think of too many nuances other than the fact that everybody's trying to catch up with the insatiable appetite that industry has for AI systems.

那Vera Rubin的发布情况怎么样？

What about the the Vera Rubin rollout?

我们在The Information报道过，Blackwell芯片在发布时出了一些问题。

One of the things that we have reported on here at The Information is with the Blackwell chips, there were some hiccups with the rollout.

根据我们的报道，Vera Rubin的进展其实顺利得多。

The Vera Rubin is actually going a lot better according to our reporting.

Patrick，从你在现场听到的消息来看，这些芯片的发布现在进展如何？

Patrick, in terms of what you're hearing on the ground, how is that rollout looking right now for those trips?

我觉得NVIDIA在很多方面都做得很好，很到位，所以才能有现在的市场份额和市场地位。

I think NVIDIA does many, many things right and well, hence the market share and the position they've got in the marketplace.

但从我们的角度来看，情况有点不太一样。

The dynamic is a little bit different from where we sit.

我们帮助NVIDIA的客户，这些客户不一定想成为NVIDIA的客户，而NVIDIA希望他们能成为更大的客户，我们帮他们保持一定的独立性，让他们更加多元化。

We help the customers at NVIDIA who don't necessarily want to be NVIDIA customers as much as NVIDIA would like them to be larger customers of theirs, to have some independence and democratize them.

你知道，所有的大型云服务商都有自己的项目，同时也在购买英伟达的芯片。

As you know, all the hyperscalers have their own programs as well as buying NVIDIA chips.

所以，希望确实能在市场上占据重要地位。

So, are hoping does have a significant presence in the marketplace.

但除此之外，很多公司都在开发自己的芯片，推出自己的解决方案。

But on top of that, a lot of these guys are developing their own chips, coming up with their own solutions.

比如，TPU现在已经到了第八代，马上要出第九代，最终会到第十代。

I mean, TPUs are now in generation eight going to nine, eventually 10.

同样，AWS、微软和Meta那边也有很多进展。

Same thing, you know, lots of advances at AWS and Microsoft and Meta as well.

还有国外的和数据中心的公司也在做类似的事情，比如阿里巴巴、腾讯和百度。

And the foreign and data center guys also doing the same kind of thing, Alibaba and Tencent and Baidu.

所以，整个世界都在努力推出一些与英伟达不同的解决方案，但又能有效地与它竞争。

So the world is trying to effectively come up with solutions that are somewhat different than what NVIDIA does, yet competes with them in a very effective way.

为了做到这一点，他们需要像我们这样的技术，而英伟达内部有这种技术，但不太愿意分享，以开放这个市场。

In order for them to to do that, they need technology like ours, which NVIDIA has on the inside and not necessarily willing to share to open up that marketplace.

所以，那会很好。

So, would be good.

那么，Ramin，你们是不是在向许多正在开发自己芯片的超大规模云服务商销售产品？

So, Ramin, you guys are selling to many of these hyperscalers then who are developing their own chips?

是的。

Are Yeah.

你的

Your

他们中的很多都在尝试，你知道，NVIDIA并不便宜。

Many of them that try to, you know, NVIDIA is not cheap.

而且还有高溢价的东西，当然，他们必须为此买单。

And with the high markup stuff, of course, they have to pay.

你也能看到他们为建数据中心投入的巨额资金，甚至借钱来建，高达数千亿美元。

And you also see the amount of investment that they are making to build their data centers, hundreds of billions of dollars even borrowing to do that.

所以，如果他们能把那个数字削减一半，哪怕只是削减一半，他们就会领先很多。

So if they can cut that number by by a factor of two even, they would be well ahead.

所以他们一直在努力研发自己的加速器，想大幅降低这个成本。

So they've been working on and thinking about developing their own accelerators to reduce that cost significantly.

当然，这其中的一部分是造出合适的计算芯片，但另一部分是把它们更高效地连接起来，因为连接才是瓶颈，决定了加速芯片能发挥多少效用。

Of course, a part of that is one part is building the right compute chips, but the other part is connecting them more efficiently because by is the connections that is a bottleneck, how much of a utilization you can get from an accelerator chip.

如果互联技术不行，那芯片的好处就体现不出来。

If the connection interconnect is not good, you don't get that benefit out of it.

对。

Right.

这项技术很稀缺，而这正是我们能提供的。

That technology is rare, and that's something that we provide for that.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到了一个有意思的点，Akash，我想接着这个话题说两句。

You touched on something interesting, Akash, if I can just follow-up with that.

如果你想了解我们的客户是谁，可以看看我们的战略投资者。

If you want to get a clue on who our customers are, you could look at our strategic investors.

企业风投通常不只是为了投资回报，虽然那也是其中一部分。

Corporate VCs typically don't invest for the return on the investment as much as it is a component of it.

但他们投资我们，主要是因为把我们看作他们的技术推动者。

But their interest in investing us is mostly because they see us as a technology enabler for them.

我们拥有所有三家内存供应商，还有所有三家晶圆厂。

We have all three memory supplies, we have all three fabs.

我们有两家交换机厂商，还有几家数据中心公司，以及三家最大的芯片制造商，他们为市场生产CPU和GPU。

We have two switch manufacturers, we have a couple of data center folks themselves, and we have three of the largest chip makers that are building CPUs and GPUs for the marketplace.

所以，所有这些公司都在这个生态系统中，他们会利用我们的技术来开发自己的产品。

So, all of these guys are in the ecosystem that would leverage the technology for their products.

那么，Patrick，最后一个问题给你。

So, Patrick, last question for you then.

我们现在所处的环境，比如AMD推出了他们的整机架规模系统。

As we are sort of in this environment where you have AMD, for example, unveiling their full rack scale system.

而NVIDIA显然以其机架系统闻名。

NVIDIA obviously is known for their racks.

你们现在瞄准的是那些想自己拼装整个系统的客户，听起来是一点一点、一块一块地拼起来。

You guys are catering to this market where customers are trying to put together their own entire system, sounds like bit by bit, piece by piece.

这看起来像是芯片市场的两个不同方向。

These seem like two different ends of the chip market.

一方面，有些公司直接推出整套机架。

On one scale, you have companies releasing racks.

另一方面，客户说，嘿，我们想自己组装系统，按自己的需求定制。

On the other hand, you have customers saying, Hey, we want to piece together our own system and customize it the way you want.

现在这两股趋势，哪一股更占上风？

Which of those two movements right now is dominating the momentum?

听起来你们真的很看好客户自己拼装机架，觉得这会是未来的趋势，对吧？

It sounds like you guys are really suggesting that customers are going to want to piece together their own racks, and that's going to be the future?

对。

Yeah.

其实是三股力量合在一起。

It's a combination of all three.

我觉得英伟达不会消失。

I think NVIDIA will not go away.

我觉得数据中心自己造芯片，或者说超大规模数据中心自己造芯片，也不会消失，因为他们在优化推理模型或训练模型时，很大程度上依赖于他们自己的芯片开发项目。

I think building their own chips at the data centers will not or the hyperscalers would not go away because there's a lot of dependency on how they want to optimize their inference models or training models per their chip development kind of projects.

最后，芯片制造商，像AMD、英特尔、ARM这些公司，他们也完全没有打算退出这个市场。

And lastly, the chip makers, the AMD's, the Intel's, the arms of the world, they have no intention of walking away from this market either.

为了跟英伟达竞争，并且考虑如何优化整个数据路径，大多数大型半导体公司以及数据中心本身，现在都在做机架业务。

In order to be more competitive against NVIDIA and to think about how to optimize the entire data path, most of these large semiconductor companies, as well as the data centers themselves, are now in the rack business.

所以这就是他们整合路径的方式，确保一切优化到位，最终能带来价值。

So that's their way of consolidating the path, making sure that it's optimized and delivers the value at the end of the day.

太好了。

Great.

好的，Ramin和Patrick，感谢你们的到来。

Well, Ramin and Patrick, I want to thank you for coming on.

以上就是Eliyan的两位联合创始人Ramin和Patrick，在TITV的访谈。

That is Ramin and Patrick, two of the co founders of Eliyan, here on TITV.

谢谢你们的邀请。

Thanks for having us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我们独家报道了戴维·萨克斯在离开白宫、卸任人工智能和加密货币事务负责人之后，大举重返风险投资领域的消息。

The information has exclusive reporting on David Sacks returning to the venture capital game in a big way following his stint at the White House as AI and crypto czar.

我想请我们的AI和政治记者利奥·施瓦茨来聊聊，他和我们的风险投资记者霍恩斯坦一起报道了这个故事。

I want to bring on our AI and politics reporter, Leo Schwartz, who reported that story along with our venture capital reporter, Hornstein.

利奥，欢迎回到节目。

Leo, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

那么戴维·萨克斯最近在忙什么呢？

So what is David Sacks up to these days?

大卫·萨克斯三月份刚离开白宫，卸任了人工智能和加密货币沙皇的职位。

So David Sacks just left the White House in March from his AI and crypto czar position.

正如我们过去几个月广泛报道的那样，他仍然参与华盛顿的政策事务。

As we've reported extensively over the past few months, he is still involved in the policy game in DC.

但正如我们昨天报道的，他也重新回到了风投领域。

But as we reported yesterday, he is back in the venture game as well.

他正在为Craft Ventures募集大约10亿美元的新基金，这家公司是他2017年创立的，看起来他们又开始投资了。

He's targeting around $1,000,000,000 for a new fund for Craft Ventures, which was the fund that he started in 2017, and it seems like they're making investments again.

这个基金和Craft Ventures过去募集的基金相比，规模怎么样？

And how big is this fund compared to other funds that Craft Ventures has raised in the past?

这次的不同之处在于，这是一个单一基金。

So what's different about this one is it's it's a sole fund.

过去几次，他们采用了双基金结构，把早期和成长期分开。

The past couple, they've done a two fund structure with early stage and more growth separated.

这次就一个基金，而且根据我们的报道，它会专注于后期阶段，比种子期更靠后。

This is just one fund, and our reporting showed that it's going to focus later stage and just like later than seed.

基本上就是从A轮开始。

So basically, series a onward.

之前那支基金，两个加起来总共大概有13亿美元。

And it's it's one the the previous one was around $1,300,000,000 all told between the two funds.

这支稍微小一点，但它是单一基金结构。

This one's a little smaller, but it's the sole fund structure.

但你说他们会比以往更偏向后期阶段，是吗？

But you said that they're going to be focused a little bit later stage compared to what they typically have done?

看起来他们不会再专注于种子轮了。

So it seems like they won't be focused on seed anymore.

过去他们做过一些知名的种子轮投资，但这次会更偏向A轮及以后。

Made some notable seed investments in the past, but this one will be more series A onwards.

你觉得这是为什么？

Why do you think that is?

我是说，考虑到David Sacks最近的经历，他在白宫的工作，你觉得这里有什么战略上的考虑吗？

I mean, just given the run that David Sacks has been on, the job that he's had at the White House, do you think there's a strategic reason here?

我觉得唯一的原因可能就是现在你得筹大额资金。

I mean, the only reason I can think is maybe just that you have to raise big checks nowadays.

你知道，现在的种子轮已经不是以前那个样子了。

You know, like a seed round is no longer what it used to be.

A轮，现在什么都可能叫A轮。

Series A, I mean, that could mean anything right now.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这个问题问朱莉娅更合适，但要是种子轮都到一亿美元了，那还有真正的种子轮吗？

I think this is a better question for Julia, but does seed even exist anymore when a

对。

Yeah.

种子轮都一亿美元了？

Seed round is a $100,000,000?

我觉得现在的种子轮，放在过去都算C轮了。

I feel like even what today is seed is, you know, series c in the past.

但是，对。

But Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

确实感觉有很多兴趣，我觉得可以说A轮算是增长阶段，但肯定是更后期一点，支持那些走得更远的公司。

It does seem like there's a lot of interest in I think we could say Series A would be growth, but certainly a bit later stage and backing companies that are further along.

其他公司也在采用这种策略。

You're seeing that strategy from other firms as well.

好，那我们回到大卫·萨克斯的话题。

So, okay, let's go back to David Sacks here.

再提醒我们一下，他在白宫正式任职时，那130是什么情况？

So Remind us then again about what He had 130 in the White House officially.

他离开时，简历上主要有哪些成就？我是说，在他短暂的任期内。

What was the resume that he walked out with in terms of key things he achieved, I guess, in his short term?

你觉得这可能会如何影响他现在在Craft的第二段任期里会投资什么？

And how do you think that might translate to what he might invest in now with Craft in the second stint here?

萨克斯确实是这种放手不管的监管方式的倡导者，硅谷的一帮人，比如马克·安德森，把这种方式带进了特朗普的第二个任期。

Sacks was really the champion of this hands off regulatory approach that a bunch of Silicon Valley like Mark Andreessen brought to this second Trump term in office.

但显然，萨克斯实际上在白宫担任这个特殊雇员角色。

But obviously, Sacks was actually in the White House in this special employee role.

他身兼两职，同时负责AI和加密货币。

He had this this twin hat of doing both AI and crypto.

显然，这两个领域都有很多动作。

Obviously, there was a lot of movement in both.

可以说，早期加密货币的动作更多，无论是在加密货币还是AI方面。

Arguably, crypto had more early on, both in crypto and AI.

他们发布了行动计划，基本上既设定了行政优先事项，也设定了立法优先事项。

They released action plans that basically set out both an executive priority and also legislative priorities.

在加密货币方面，通过了《天才法案》，主要关注稳定币。

Crypto, you have the passage of the Genius Act, which focuses on stablecoins.

另一项重大立法则进展缓慢。

The other big piece of legislation is more stalled.

那个法案主要是关于市场结构监管的。

That's clarity that deals more with market structure regulation.

你可以看看我们优秀的记者Yueqi最近写的相关报道。

You can look at our great reporter, Yueqi's pieces on that recently.

然后我觉得最近几个月，AI成了焦点。

And then I would say more in recent months, AI has taken the limelight.

随着价格下跌，加密货币稍微退居次要位置了。

Crypto has receded a bit more as prices have decreased.

萨克斯实际上在三月份离开了，正好是在Anthropix Mythos发布的时候，当时引发了一场关于白宫应该如何应对这些新的网络能力模型的大辩论。

Sacks actually left in March right around the launch of Anthropix Mythos when they're turned into this huge debate around how the White House should deal with these new cyber capable models.

我觉得萨克斯和那些新进入白宫AI辩论的人有些冲突，那些人似乎更主张安全优先的做法。

And I think Sacks clashed a bit with these new figures coming into the White House debate on AI who seemed to champion a more safety first approach.

萨克斯继续推动这种不干预的做法，这在那项行政命令的辩论中达到了顶点，该命令为AI模型在发布前与政府共享模型建立了自愿框架。

Sacks continued to boost this more hands off approach, and and that really came to a head in this debate around the executive order that created a voluntary framework for AI models to share their models with the government before release.

尽管萨克斯当时已经不在白宫了，他还是说服了特朗普在五月底不要签署那个框架或行政命令的早期版本，理由是那对公司来说太繁重了，尽管大约两周后行政命令还是签署了。

Sacks, even though he was out of the White House at that point, was able to convince Trump not to sign an earlier version of that framework or of that executive order in late May, arguing it was too onerous for companies, even though the executive order was signed about a couple weeks later.

他对特朗普还有影响力吗？

Does he still have an impact on Trump?

关于这一点我们知道些什么？

What do we know about that?

是的。

Yes.

据我们了解，他在华盛顿仍然有存在感。

So our understanding is that he still has a presence in DC.

在AI政策方面，他仍然能影响特朗普，因为AI已经成为华盛顿最重要的问题之一。

He still certainly has Trump's ear when it comes to AI policy as AI becomes one of the biggest issues in Washington.

而且他还在一个叫PCAST的顾问委员会任职，这个委员会专注于科技领域。

And then he does still serve in this role on this advisory council called PCAST, which is focused on science and technology.

他和科技政策办公室主任迈克尔·克拉齐奥斯共同担任主席。

He's the co chair of that along with Michael Kratzios, the director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy.

PCAST成员中有很多知名的科技高管，不过它实际在做什么还不太清楚。

And PCAST has a number of very notable tech executives on it, although what it's actually doing in reality is a bit unclear.

太好了。

Great.

好的，Leo，非常感谢你来做客。

Well, Leo, I want to thank you for coming on.

这位是Leo Schwartz，我们The Information的科技、政治和AI记者。

That is Leo Schwartz, our tech and politics and AI reporter here at The Information.

在我们最新的Applied AI专栏中，我的同事Laura Bratton报道了AI如何迫使各组织重新考虑他们的软件支出，并在某些情况下调整供应商关系。

In our latest Applied AI column, my colleague Laura Bratton reports on how AI is forcing organizations to rethink their software spending, and in some cases, reshuffle certain vendor relationships.

现在Laura加入我们，分享她了解到的情况。

Laura joins me now to share with us what she learned.

Laura，欢迎回到节目。

Laura, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

很高兴来到这里。

Good to be here.

最近怎么样，Akash？

How's it going, Akash?

我挺好的。

I am doing well.

我们来聊聊软件支出吧。

Let's talk about software spending.

你有机会和美国农业部的人聊过，这个部门我们节目里好像还真没怎么提过。

You had the opportunity to talk to somebody from the US Department of Agriculture, which is not an agency or a department, I guess, that we have really talked about on this show.

跟我说说你们聊了什么，最后你了解到什么情况？

Tell me about the conversation that you had and what you ultimately learned.

我了解到农业部正在削减在Salesforce上的开支，同时加大力度使用C3的AI功能。

I learned that the Department of Agriculture is trimming its spending on Salesforce and investing more heavily in using AI capabilities from C3.

我觉得这只是最新的一个例子，说明大型组织在软件预算上正在调整，因为他们对用哪家供应商的哪些AI工具越来越挑剔了。

I think it's just the latest example of how we're seeing different software budgets from large organizations shift around as they become pickier about which AI tools they're gonna use from which providers.

所以它是在用C3，同时减少在Salesforce上的花费？

So it's tapping C3 and it's reducing its Salesforce expenses?

怎么了？

What's going on?

对。

Yeah.

所以这就是首席信息官山姆·巴里告诉我的。

So that's what the CIO, Sam Barry, told me.

他说，具体来说，对于这个信件跟踪任务，AI能力可以分类和组织美国农业部从选民、不同机构和国会收到的信件。

He said that specifically for this task correspondence tracking, So AI capabilities that can categorize and organize letters that the USDA receives from voters and different agencies and Congress.

他们认为C3在这个特定任务上的能力比Salesforce的更好。

It's it believed that C3's capabilities for this specific task were better than Salesforce's.

这不一定是个价格决定，因为从技术上讲，他们会在C3上花更多的钱，大约一年900万美元，合同从一月份就开始了。

It wasn't necessarily a pricing decision because technically they're gonna be spending more on C3, about 9,000,000 over a year, which started back in January, the contracted.

而他们在Salesforce上为这个任务的花费大约是400万美元的许可证费用，再加上200万美元支付给外部顾问。

Whereas their spending on Salesforce for this task would have been about $4,000,000 for a license and then $2,000,000 in payments to outside consultants.

所以我觉得，对巴里来说，他告诉我的是，这更多是关于选择哪些供应商在这个特定任务上有最好的AI能力。

So I think for Barry, what he told me is it was just more about picking which providers had the best AI capabilities for this specific task.

但我们也得说，它跟Salesforce的合作规模还是不小的。

But we should say it still has a sizable footprint with Salesforce.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Absolutely.

农业部计划在2025到2030年间，通过合同最多花费2.77亿美元。

So the Department of Agriculture is set to spend through its contract up to $277,000,000 between 2025 and 2030.

我得说，这比他们在2020到2025年间跟Salesforce签的那个大型企业协议稍微少一点，那个大约是2.94亿美元。

I will say that's slightly less than the big enterprise Salesforce agreement they had between 2020 and 2025, which was about 294,000,000.

再说一遍，这些是农业部跟Salesforce签的最大的企业协议。

And again, these are the biggest Salesforce enterprise agreements that the USDA has.

他们还有一些其他较小的合同来花Salesforce软件的钱，但这些是最大的协议。

They have some other smaller contracts to spend money on Salesforce's software, but these are the largest agreements.

而且我们看到，从2025到2030这五年间，这些协议的价值有所下降，我觉得这挺有意思的。

And we're seeing the value of those agreements come down a bit between, you know, the five years between 2025 and 2030, which I think is interesting.

那你觉得这从整体上说明了什么？关于我们在企业软件领域看到的这种转变，或者至少是那些搞软件的人害怕会发生的转变。

So what do you think this says then broadly about the shift that we are seeing play out in enterprise software, or at least the shift that people are scared software people are scared of playing out.

我是说，人们换供应商是很常见的事。

I mean, people change vendors all the time.

但这很难做到，因为这些合同都是多年的，而且有时候要涉及把成千上万的账户迁移到一个新平台。

It's hard to do given that these are multi year contracts, and this sometimes involves shifting tens of thousands of accounts to a new platform.

但我的意思是，这是不是就是SaaS的末日？

But I mean, is this the SaaS pocalypse at work?

还是说这只是个孤立事件？

Was this an isolated event?

你觉得这反映了当前的什么情况？

I mean, what does this tell you about the current situation?

我觉得这段对话有意思的原因是，我跟很多小公司聊过，他们要么削减了在Salesforce上的支出，要么干脆把Salesforce整个换掉，自己用vibe coding来开发解决方案。

The reason I found this conversation so interesting is because I talked to a lot of small companies that have pulled back spending on Salesforce or ripped out Salesforce altogether to vibe code their own solutions.

但我还没真正跟那些削减Salesforce支出的大型组织或企业聊过。

But I haven't really talked to large organizations or enterprises that were pulling back their spending on Salesforce.

我觉得这是我们看到的第一个例子。

And I think this is the first example we're seeing.

而且我和一些消息源私下聊过，他们告诉我，听说某家大型企业想削减在Salesforce上的开支。

And I've had background conversations with sources where they've told me, Oh, I've heard of XYZ large enterprise that wants to pull back at Salesforce spending.

目前我们还没在Salesforce的财报里看到这种影响。

We haven't really seen this reflected in Salesforce's financials yet.

它还在健康增长，但投资者担心我从美国农业部听到的情况会变成一个大趋势，这可能威胁到Salesforce的定价能力，这也是为什么今年股价跌了这么多。

It's still growing at a healthy pace, but investors are scared that what I heard from the USDA could become a broad trend and that could threaten Salesforce's pricing power, Which is why I think the stock is down so far this year.

因为你知道，Salesforce一直是软件行业的宠儿，几十年来牢牢抓住了客户。

Because, you know, Salesforce has been this kind of golden child of the software industry and had a decades long hold on its customers.

现在开始看到这种情况在减弱。

And we're starting to see that wane.

那这对C3的业务意味着什么？

And what does it mean for C3's business?

告诉我这对他们来说是多大的胜利。

Tell me about how big a win this would be for them.

对。

Yeah.

所以C3的情况不太好。

So C3 is not doing so well.

在最近的四月份季度业绩中，我们看到他们的收入下降了一半以上。

In its most recent April quarter results, we saw that their revenue fell by more than half.

而CEO汤姆·西格尔，最近重新出任CEO，他说这个结果让人无法接受。

And CEO Tom Siegel, who came back on as CEO recently, said that the results were unacceptable.

所以，你知道，C3现在处境不太好，我不认为一个合同就能完全改变公司的走向。

And so, you know, it's not in the best position, and I don't think one contract is enough to totally shift the trajectory of the company.

但我觉得这至少是一个信号，说明C3还没完，也许他们能扭转局面。

But I think it is a signal at least that, you know, it's it's not over for C3 and maybe they could turn things around.

但是，你知道，这……我……是的。

But, you know, it's it's I I yeah.

我……我不认为我们真的知道这家公司接下来会怎么样。

I I don't I don't think we really know what's going to happen with that particular company.

我觉得总的来说，Salesforce会

I think overall Salesforce is

被收购。

get bought.

我是说，不知道是不是Salesforce，但这家公司，C3，他们的路走得挺艰难的。

I mean, don't know if it's going be Salesforce, but I mean, the company, C3, it's been a bit of a tough journey for them.

他们一直很难站稳脚跟。

They've struggled to find their footing.

就像你说的，收入一直在下滑。

As you said, revenue was declining.

我觉得汤姆·西贝尔，他因为健康原因离开了，后来又回来了。

I think Tom Siebel, he left because of health reasons, then he came back.

听起来他们的技术确实在帮一些人，包括美国农业部。

Sounds like their technology is doing something for someone, including the USDA.

所以，我是说，也许Salesforce可以直接收购他们，这样他们就不用再为这个问题头疼了。

So, I mean, maybe Salesforce can just buy them and they won't have the problem with their hands anymore.

是的，我们看看接下来会发生什么。

Yeah, we'll see what happens.

我的意思是，我特别了解C3，美国农业部喜欢他们的一点是，他们内部有部署工程师，而且他们对必须支付外部Salesforce顾问费用感到不满。

I mean, I know C3 in particular, what the USDA liked is that they had in house board deployed engineers, and they felt frustrated with the fact that, you know, you have to pay these outside Salesforce consultants.

我觉得我们应该注意到，Salesforce雇佣了大量全职员工，我不知道为什么，那些员工没有被美国农业部使用。

I think that we should note that Salesforce has hired swaths of FTEs, and I don't know why exactly, you know, those weren't being used by the USDA.

但是，你知道，美国农业部的首席信息官告诉我，他们认为C3非常适合这个定制用例。

But, you know, the CIO of the USDA told me that they felt that C3 was great for, you know, this custom use case.

而C3有点想把自己定位成像Palantir那样的企业软件公司，你可以用它来做定制业务。

And C3 is kind of trying to position itself as a Palantir esque enterprise software company where you can, you know, use it for custom business purposes.

但话说回来，我觉得现在每个企业软件公司都想成为Palantir。

But then again, I think we see every single enterprise software company wants to be like Palantir right now.

对。

Right.

最后一个问题，Laura。

And last question for you, Laura.