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欢迎各位收看《The Information》的TITV节目。
Welcome everyone to The Information's TITV.
我是阿卡什·佩斯里查。
My name is Akash Pesritcha.
今天是5月15日，星期五。
It is Friday, May 15.
今天的第一条重磅消息，《The Information》独家报道了SpaceX人工智能团队的大批人才流失。
First up today, The Information published exclusive reporting about a talent exodus from SpaceX AI.
我们的埃隆·马斯克特派记者将连线节目，跟大家分享他掌握的最新情况。
Our Elon Musk reporter will join the show to share with us what he knows.
另外，我们还会听Rocket Drew带来今天的每日更新，聊聊埃隆·马斯克对OpenAI的诉讼案，陪审团现在已进入审议阶段。
Plus, we'll get our daily update from Rocket Drew about the Elon Musk OpenAI trial with jury heading into deliberation mode.
在本周的《编辑精选》栏目里，我们将深入探讨备受关注的Cerebras上市计划，以及OpenAI和苹果之间正在酝酿的冲突。
In this week's edition of the Editor's Cut, we're going to dive into the eagerly awaited Cerebras IPO and a brewing conflict between OpenAI and Apple.
说到苹果，我们请来了一位早期的iPhone工程师，谈谈他对这家公司目前状况的看法。
Speaking of Apple, we're bringing on an early iPhone engineer to talk about his thoughts on the current state of the company.
最后，我们还会带来本周末的深度报道，聚焦一家核能初创公司，他们给自己设定了一个激进的目标——尽快启动第一座核反应堆。
And we're going to wrap the show with this weekend's Big Read, spotlighting a nuclear power startup that has set an aggressive deadline to turn on its first nuclear reactor.
这期节目内容很精彩，咱们马上开始。
It's going to be a fun show, so let's get right on into it.
根据《The Information》的独家报道，X AI 正在大量流失人才，很多人跳槽去了其他大型人工智能实验室。
X AI is losing talent on a significant scale to other big AI labs that is according to exclusive reporting from the information.
我请来我们的埃隆·马斯克记者 Theo Wayt，为大家梳理一下他了解到的情况。
I want to bring on Theo Wayt, our Elon Musk reporter, to walk us through what he knows.
Theo，欢迎再次做客节目。
Theo, welcome back to the show.
很高兴你能来。
It's great to have you here.
你跟我们说说，你在调查中发现了什么？
Walk us through what you found in your reporting.
是的。
Yeah.
首先，我们不能再叫它XAI了。
So, first of all, we're not allowed to call it XAI anymore.
我注意到开场时你提到的是SpaceX AI，现在这已经是官方名称了。
I noticed in the intro you called it SpaceX AI, which is now the official name.
没错，正式的。
It's official.
SpaceX AI。
SpaceX AI.
说实话，说不定以后连叫SpaceX AI Cursor都有可能。
I know, it could could be SpaceX AI cursor for all we know.
对啊。
Right.
你现在输入spacexai.com，根本打不开，说明他们还没搞定这个域名。
I mean, if you type in spacexai.com right now, it doesn't actually go to anything, so they still need to figure that out.
但至少根据马斯克的说法，我们现在就得这么叫。
But at least according to Elon, it's what we're supposed to call it.
好的。
Okay.
总之，SpaceX AI 这名字还真挺拗口的。
So, anyways, SpaceX AI, it's a mouthful.
其实呢，已经
There there's there's been
不好意思。
Sorry.
我刚想到点事，得先走一下。
I just got I I do I gotta jump.
现在这个 x 是小写还是大写？
Is the x lowercase now, or is it uppercase?
今天是周五，咱们得把 space x 这个写法定下来。
It's Friday, so we gotta square it with a space x.
我觉得应该是大写的 X。
Think it's capital x.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得是大写的。
I think it's uppercase.
官方来说，马斯克说它叫SpaceX AI，是SpaceX推出的AI产品。
Officially, Elon says it's called SpaceX AI, the AI products from SpaceX.
你试着连着快说五遍看看。
So try saying that five times fast.
它叫
It's
好的。
Alright.
好的。
Alright.
那你了解到关于在SpaceX AI工作的人，就是以前叫xXAI的那家公司，有什么信息吗？
So what did you find about the people working at SpaceX AI, the company formerly known as x XAI?
自从SpaceX在二月收购了XAI，为了理清名称的时间线，至少有五十名研究人员离职，实际人数还超过五十。
So since SpaceX acquired XAI in February, just to keep the timeline of the names straight, there have been at least 50 research staff who have left, more than 50.
这个数字相当可观，因为去年年底，团队总人数大概在两百多人左右，而光是这五十人，就已经占了不小的比例。
And that's pretty significant because late last year, there were, somewhat somewhere in the range of, like, over 200, but, you know, 50 of those, that's that's a pretty big proportion.
这还不包括其他离职人员，比如首席财务官走了，负责数据中心、AI训练和教学支持的团队也有人离开。
And that doesn't include other departures like the CFO who left, a bunch of people working on data centers who left, AI training, tutoring staff who also left.
这里说的只是研究人员。
This is just researchers.
根据我查到的公开报道，这个数字已经相当可观了。
So it's a it's a pretty big number that I was able to identify from from reporting.
至于他们去了哪里，Meta是主要去向之一。
And then, you know, in terms of where they're going, Meta has been a big destination.
在文章里我提到至少有十一人。
In the story, I said at least 11.
文章发布后，我又更新了统计，现在离职去Meta的人已经超过十一人了。
Since it's published, that number I've already increased my tally, so it's even more than 11 at this point.
至少有七个人去了Thinking Machines Lab，也就是Miramar Ati的公司，还有少数人去了Anthropic等其他公司。
At least seven are going to, Thinking Machines Lab, Miramar Ati's company, and then there's kind of a smaller number going to other companies like Anthropic and others.
Meta和Thinking Machines无疑是最大的两个去向。
Meta and Thinking Machines are definitely the biggest two destinations.
这挺有意思的，也让我们看到了报道背后是怎么运作的。
So this is kind of interesting, and this is kind of a look into how reporting works behind the scenes.
但你不是已经发稿了吗？怎么还又发现了更多离职的人？
But since you've published, you've actually identified even more people who who have left, you're saying?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果你打算通过Signal联系我，最好在文章发布前就联系，别等发了再找我。
I mean, you know, I would just say if you're someone that's considering messaging me on signal, please do it before I put the story out instead of after.
没错，我一直都在更新这份离职人员名单，文章发了之后，名单还在继续增加。
But but, yes, I, you know, I I've been keeping this, like, growing list of of people that have left, and it just keeps growing even when I already published the story.
你刚才提到他们去了Meta和其他公司。
And so now you talked about them going to Meta and to other companies.
你在报道里提到过，可能有几方面原因导致这种情况。
And in the story you talked a little bit about the reasons why that might be the case.
你指出，公司的文化是其中一个因素。
You identified the culture at the company being one factor.
那我们有没有了解到，是Meta在挖人吗？
What do we know here about was this Meta poaching people?
是其他公司在挖人吗？
Was it other companies poaching people?
还是说员工自己不满意，想主动离开？
Or was it people disgruntled saying, I want to leave?
我觉得这几个原因都有。
I think all of the above.
我要说明一下，很多人的离开其实是被解雇或裁员。
I mean, to be clear, a lot of these departures are either firings or layoffs.
这类情况还真不少。
I mean, there have been quite a few of those.
并不是所有人都主动选择离开。
It's it's not all people choosing to leave.
很多原本对加入XAI，或者说是SpaceX人工智能团队充满热情的人，其实也被迫离开了。
You know, there are plenty of people that were gung ho about working at XAI or, sorry, with SpaceX AI that that that, you know, got pushed out regardless.
对很多人来说，另一个因素是公司规定，工作满六个月才能获得部分股票期权。
The other factor for a lot of people, I think, is just that that, you know, the company has this six month period after which you you vest, some some stock.
所以很多人只是为了熬到六个月，但其实很多人没撑到那时。
And so a lot of people are just trying to make it to six months, and a lot of them don't.
那些最近被裁或离开的人，很多在公司待的时间甚至更短。
I mean, a lot of the people that have been let go or or left recently were there for even less time
是的。
Right.
不到六个月。
Than six months.
这说明他当初没把XAI一开始就建好。
That's must have said that he did not build XAI right the first time.
这个话题我们在节目里聊过。
This is something that we've talked about on the show.
那我们到底知道多少？他是怎么改变 SpaceX AI 日常运营方式的？
What do we know about how he has changed the way that SpaceX AI now runs tactically on the ground?
说真的，他好像在自己公司搞一套类似 DOGE 的做法。
I mean, it kind of seems like he's do like, he's kind of doing a version of DOGE to his own company almost.
这么说可能有点夸张，但确实有些相似之处。
You know, that that might be overstating it a little bit, but there are some similarities.
他有一批从 SpaceX 带过来、他信得过的人，还有一批从 Cursor 过来、现在跟他合作的人。
Like, he he, you know, has this team of of people from SpaceX that he trusts, and this team of people from from Cursor that he's you know, now has this this arrangement with.
他们一起进到 XAI——也就是以前的 XAI——到处找能改的地方、该裁的人、该砍的冗余，这跟 DOGE 不一样的是，他们砍的是埃隆自己创办的公司。
And they're kind of going into XAI and, you know, or what was formerly known as XAI and going through and looking for places to make changes, people to cut, and, you know, fat to trim, etcetera, which, you know, is different from DOGE in that they're doing it to a company that Elon himself started.
这就有点像蛇吞自己的尾巴了。
So it it it's, you know, kind of the snake eating its own tail or whatever.
但确实有相似的地方：埃隆一专注起来，就非得开始裁员、动刀子，还把责任推到别人身上。
But there there are similarities here where where, like, you know, Elon gets really focused on something, and he has to, you know, start start cutting and and making heads roll and blaming people for things.
现在正在发生的就是这些。
And that's what's going on right now.
那Kerser那边呢？
What about Kerser?
上周你好像做过一些报道，是关于Kerser目前的状况，以及这家公司如何应对可能即将与SpaceX AI达成的这项合作。
You you had some reporting last week, I believe it was, about the current state of Kerser and how that company is dealing with this new deal that conceivably is going to come together with SpaceX AI.
那边现在是什么情况？
What's going on over there?
是的。
Yeah.
Cursor的员工已经开始进入XAI的办公室，跟人聊他们都在做些什么。
So Cursor staff are have been coming into the X AI offices and, you know, talking to people about what they're doing.
这些事情差不多就是裁员开始的时候发生的。
That started happening around the same time there were some layoffs.
所以，我接触过的不少XAI员工都觉得这两件事之间有联系。
So a lot of people at, you know, XAI that I've talked to kind of see a connection between those two.
不过，我觉得Cursor方面可能会说，这其实就是彼此了解一下的交流。
Although, I think Cursor would would say that it's more just like getting to know you meetings.
而且，埃隆也提到过，XAI正在用Cursor的数据来优化他们的编程模型。
And, you know, Elon has also said that XAI is using Cursor data to to improve its coding models.
所以这方面的情况挺多的
So there there's a lot of
双方的关系确实有不少动态，但目前还不清楚SpaceX到底会不会真的行使这个收购Cursor的选项。
movement in that relationship, but I think it's still pretty unclear whether SpaceX is actually gonna go through with this option that they have to buy a cursor.
接下来就特别值得留意了，下周就要公布结果的那家SpaceX子公司，到时候会怎么说——毕竟这种安排太模糊了，他们一直没说清楚到底怎么回事。
And it'll be really interesting to see, you know, what the SpaceX s one that's supposed to flip as soon as next week is gonna say about that because it it it's kind of a kind of a strange arrangement that they haven't really detailed very much at all.
你刚才描述的这种人员来回流动的文化，你觉得当SpaceX AI成为上市公司之后，这种情况会改变吗？
So, this culture that you described here of a bit of a revolving door of people coming in and out, I wonder if you think that is going to change at all as SpaceX AI becomes a public company?
我这么问是因为特斯拉已经上市很久了。
And I ask this because we have Tesla, which has been a public company for a long time.
我们有没有理由相信，一旦面对公众股东的监督，情况会不一样？还是说根本就不会有变化？
Do we have any reason to believe things will change when they're under the scrutiny of public shareholders, or is it really just going to be the same?
我的意思是，这本质上更像是一家埃隆·马斯克的公司。
I mean, I I think it's I think it's an Elon Musk company more than anything.
而且所有迹象都表明，他对SpaceX的掌控比对特斯拉还要强，所以我并不觉得会有什么大变化。
And, you know, all all signs to point to him having even greater control over SpaceX than he does of Tesla, so I wouldn't expect it to change a whole lot.
你看，不管他搞哪个公司，他都会全身心扑在一个领域上。
I mean, it seems like, you know, it with any of his companies, he he gets very focused on an area.
那种氛围特别紧张。
It gets very intense.
他动不动就开除人。
He fires people.
别人也干不下去，自己走人。
People quit.
然后他又转去下一个项目，这时候可能暂时会稳定一阵子。
And then he moves on to another project, and maybe it's more stable for a while.
XAI最近就经常这样，但特斯拉当上市公司的时候也经历过同样的情况。
And that's happened a lot at X AI recently, but it's also happened to Tesla during times that that's been a public company.
他就这么做事。
It's just it's just how he works.
明白了。
Great.
Theo，非常感谢你来参加节目。
Well, Theo, I wanna thank you for coming on.
这位是 Theo Wayt，《信息》杂志的马斯克记者。
That is Theo Wayt, our Elon Musk reporter, at The Information.
《信息》杂志的 Drew 正全程在法庭报道马斯克对 OpenAI 的诉讼案。
The Information's Rocket Drew is covering the Elon Musk OpenAI trial from the courtroom all week long.
这是他最新的进展。
Here is his latest update.
这是马斯克起诉 OpenAI 和微软一案迄今为止最长的一天，因为双方都进行了结案陈词。
It was the longest day yet in the trial for Elon Musk's lawsuit against OpenAI and Microsoft, and that's because it was the day for each side to deliver their closing statements.
这是双方梳理庭审期间积累的大量证据、挑选出自认为最关键的材料，并将其串联成一个能打动陪审团、争取他们支持的故事的机会。
That's the opportunity for each side to go through the mountains of evidence that have accumulated during the trial, pick out the pieces that they think are most important, and stitch them together into a story that hopefully will be compelling to the jury and convince the jury to side with them.
在这个阶段，这对陪审团来说特别有帮助，因为积累的证据实在太多了。
That's really a service to the jury at this point in the trial because there's so much evidence that's piled up.
有大量邮件往来、短信交流，还有来自OpenAI整个发展历程中的各种文件，涉及内部和外部的不少人。
There's been email threads and text exchanges and all sorts of documents from across the history of OpenAI involving people both, inside OpenAI and outside.
所以，为了让陪审团知道从哪里入手，甚至能理解这些文件，律师们提供一个法律框架就特别关键。
So for the jury to be able to know where to begin and even make sense of these documents, it's really helpful for the lawyers to provide them a sort of legal framework.
目前在这起诉讼中，埃隆·马斯克对OpenAI提出了两项指控。
Now at this stage in the lawsuit, Elon Musk has two claims against OpenAI.
一项是违反慈善信托，另一项是不当得利。
That's breach of charitable trust and unjust enrichment.
马斯克和OpenAI的律师们，大部分时间都集中在违反慈善信托这一项上。
Lawyers for both Elon and OpenAI spent most of their time on the breach of charitable trust claim.
要证明违反慈善信托，听起来似乎挺直接的。
To show that there was a breach of charitable trust seems kind of straightforward.
你得先证明信托关系确实存在，然后证明它被违背了——也就是说，某种承诺或义务没有履行。
You have to show that trust was created and that the trust was breached, meaning some kind of promise or obligation was not followed through on.
但听了双方的陈述后，我明显感觉到，法律本身在结构上更偏向OpenAI这一方——因为Musk必须证明慈善信托的所有要素才能成立。
But after listening to both sides, I really got the impression that there's something structural about the law that favors OpenAI's side of the case here, which is that Musk needs to show all of the elements for breach of charitable trust.
只要OpenAI能推翻其中任何一点，就足以赢得这场官司。
And if OpenAI can disprove even a single one of them, that's sufficient for OpenAI to win.
要成立慈善信托，首先得有捐赠，而双方都承认，Musk确实捐了大约3800万美元，还提供了一些非金钱形式的贡献。
So in order to create the charitable trust in the first place, there has to be a donation, and both sides do agree that Musk donated around $38,000,000 and also some non monetary contributions.
但从这之后，情况就变得复杂了，因为一方必须证明这些捐赠是带有明确慈善目的的。
But things get complicated from there, because side needs to show that those contributions were given with a specific charitable purpose.
OpenAI方面说，所谓的慈善目的只是泛泛地支持OpenAI的使命，这远远不够具体。
And OpenAI says there was no charitable purpose beyond just supporting the mission of OpenAI, and that's not specific enough.
Musk一方则认为这已经足够具体了，毕竟Musk亲自参与了OpenAI章程的制定，明确了它的使命，所以章程本身就该算数。
Musk's side says that's plenty specific because Musk had a hand in crafting the OpenAI charter and figuring out what its mission was going to be in the first place so the charter should count.
那么，是否存在明确的目的呢？
So was there a specific purpose?
第二点是，这个目的是否得到了充分的表达和体现。
Second is whether that purpose whether there was a proper manifestation of that purpose.
也就是说，马斯克明确表达过，他希望这里存在一项可执行的义务，并打算去执行它。
Meaning, Musk made clear, he communicated that he there was some enforceable obligation here that he intended to enforce.
第三，信托财产——也就是这些捐款——在违约发生时是否仍然存在。
And third, that the trust property, in this case, the donations, still existed at the time of the breach.
这一点，OpenAI方面也持不同意见。
And that's again something that OpenAI contests.
他们说，马斯克的钱确实不断进来，但同时也不断出去。
They say money was coming in the door from Musk, but it was also leaving.
因为他们是初创公司，花得特别快。
They were spending it very quickly because they're a they're a startup.
他们在算力和人才上投入了大量资金。
They're spending a lot of money on compute, on talent.
所以等到所谓违约发生时，他们账上已经没有马斯克的任何一笔钱了。
So by the time any alleged breach did happen, they didn't have any of Musk's money in the bank anymore.
马斯克的律师反驳说，关键在于你怎么分析这个问题，很大程度上取决于一个假设：马斯克的第一笔钱打进账户，就会是第一笔被花掉的钱。
Musk's lawyers counter that it really is sensitive to how you perform the analysis, and a lot rests on the assumption that when Musk's dollar is the first dollar into the bank account, that it will also be the first dollar spent.
如果没有这个前提，时间线就变得模糊了。
And without that assumption, the timeline becomes less clear.
他们还指出，这些钱后来被用在了资产和员工身上，而这些资产和员工在所谓违约发生时仍然属于OpenAI。
They also argue that the money was then spent on, assets and employees that were still with OpenAI at the time of the alleged breaches.
所以双方在这点上来回拉扯了好几次。
So there was some back and forth.
关于这一点，双方有过激烈争执。
There was some clash over that point.
微软在这个问题上处境更有利，因为针对微软的指控是协助和教唆违反慈善信托，这依附于对OpenAI的指控。
Microsoft is in an even better position with respect to this claim because the claim against Microsoft is aiding and abetting breach of charitable trust.
也就是说，陪审团只有在先认定OpenAI确实违反了慈善信托之后，才会去考虑微软的责任。
It's derivative of the claim against Open AI, meaning the jury will only reach the question about what happens to Microsoft if they already agree that there was some breach of charitable trust that OpenAI, committed.
如果没认定OpenAI违约，微软就完全没事。
If not, Microsoft is off the hook.
但假设陪审团真的要追究微软，微软依然有很多脱身的余地。
But supposing they do get to Microsoft, Microsoft still has a number of outs available to them.
他们可以说，根本不知道与马斯克有关的慈善信托存在。
They can say that they didn't have any knowledge of the charitable trust that was formed with Musk.
他们对任何捐款或与捐款挂钩的承诺都不知情，他们就是这么讲的。
They weren't aware of any contribution or they weren't aware of any commitments that were tied to his contributions, and they say that's the case.
他们做了充分的尽职调查，在投资OpenAI之前，完全没听说过这件事。
They did their due diligence, and nothing about this ever came up before they invested in OpenAI.
微软还可以辩称，他们并非造成违约或对马斯克造成损害的主要原因。
And Microsoft can also say that they were not a substantial factor in the breach, and they were not a substantial factor in any harm that was caused to Musk.
这样一来，他们在这场诉讼中的处境就更加安全了。
So that puts them in an even safer position in this lawsuit.
最后一点是，双方——被告OpenAI和微软——都还有其他辩护理由。
The last thing is that both sides, both the defendants, OpenAI and Microsoft, have some further defenses.
他们主张，马斯克提出的这些指控已经过了诉讼时效，也就是说，他拖得太久才提起诉讼。
They argue that the statute of limitations on the claims that Musk is bringing have expired, meaning he waited too long to bring the lawsuit.
不管他有什么不满，当初就应该早就知道了。
Whatever his complaints were, he should have known about them originally.
他本该在2020年就意识到这些问题，那时候他已经开始在推特上抱怨，说OpenAI和微软的发展方向跟他当初的预期完全不符。
He should have known about them, say, in 2020 when he started tweeting at OpenAI and Microsoft that it seemed like they were heading in a direction that was not in line with his original expectations.
马斯克一方则反驳说，他们直到2022年才真正意识到违约已经发生。
Musk's side counters that they actually didn't know that the breach had occurred until 2022.
事实上，当马斯克看到一篇报道，披露了当时OpenAI和微软正在洽谈的交易细节时，他的律师表示，那才是让他下定决心的关键时刻。
In fact, when Musk saw an article from the information outlining the deal talks that were happening between OpenAI and Microsoft at the time, Musk's lawyer says that was the tipping point for him.
那就是违约的转折点，2023年的这笔交易有其独特之处，构成了实质违规，而此前与微软的其他合作都不够格。
That was the breach, and there were some unique features of that 2023 deal that made it so that was the violation, whereas previous deals with Microsoft did not meet that threshold.
首先，这次投资的金额大得多。
For one, the volume of the investment was much larger.
高达一千亿美元，远超微软之前投入的三十亿美元。
Was a $10,000,000,000 investment, which is greater than the $3,000,000,000 Microsoft had invested before.
2023年的投资还改变了OpenAI此前接受投资时所设定的利润上限规则。
The 2023 investment also involved a change to the profit caps that were implemented for the previous investments that OpenAI had received.
双方在2023年达成协议，利润上限将每年上调20%。
In 2023, the parties agreed that, those profit caps would increase year on year by 20%.
所以每年过去，利润上限都会再涨百分之二十。
So every year that goes by, the profit caps get 20% higher.
这意味着在利润达到上限之前，要先返还给OpenAI投资者的钱越来越多，之后的剩余部分才会流向非营利组织。
That's that much more money, that's that's that much more profits that would have to be returned to OpenAI investors before they sort of hit their caps, and then the residual begins, flowing to the nonprofit.
这也是马斯克一方反对2023年协议的另一个原因。
So that was another feature of the 2023 deal that Musk's side objected to.
马斯克一方还质疑了OpenAI方证人的可信度。
Musk's side also, they critiqued the credibility of the witnesses on OpenAI's side.
尤其是萨姆·阿尔特曼。
Both Sam Altman.
他们花了大量时间质疑萨姆·阿尔特曼在作证时的诚信和可靠性。
They spent a lot of time critiquing Sam Altman's trustworthiness and credibility when he was on the stand.
还有格雷格·布罗克曼。
But also Greg Brockman.
他们指出，格雷格·布罗克曼在OpenAI持有的股权价值高达三百亿美元，这意味着他个人利益与这场诉讼的结果息息相关。
They've pointed out that Greg Brockman has about $30,000,000,000 worth of equity in OpenAI, and that means that he obviously is interested, very personally interested in the outcome of the lawsuit.
他们还暗示，他在作证期间根本不可信。
And they also, suggested that he otherwise was not a reliable witness while he was on the stand.
所以这一天真是够长的。
So it was it was a long day.
双方有过几次激烈的交锋。
There were some heated back and forth.
确实有些很有意思的争议点，但现在就看陪审团怎么定了。
There were some really interesting points of contention, but now the ball is in the jury's court.
从周一开始，陪审团将正式开始商议。
So beginning Monday, the jury will start deliberating in earnest.
与此同时，法官会在陪审团离场后，开始审理案件的下一阶段。
At the same time, the judge will begin hearing the next phase of this trial while the jury is not in the room.
这叫救济措施阶段。
That's the remedies phase.
假设陪审团最终认定对方有责，而法官也认可这个结论——当然她也可能不认——那接下来就要讨论，法院该给出什么样的补救措施了。
So supposing the jury comes back and has a finding of liability and the judge agrees with that finding, which she may not, but if she does, then there will be a question of what remedies the court should grant.
所以法官马上就要开始审理赔偿部分的庭审了。
So the judge is going to get started right away on hearing the remedies portion of the trial.
这部分会听取一些专家证人的证词，比如经济学家，他们会讨论在这种案件中，如果存在慈善信托违约或不当得利，什么样的赔偿才合适。
That will involve some testimony from expert witnesses, economists who have things to say about what sort of remedies would be appropriate in a case like this if there is a breach of charitable trust or there is unjust enrichment.
不过这些内容要等到下周在马斯克诉奥特曼案里再细说了。
But that's more to look forward to next week in Musk v.
奥特曼。
Altman.
本周，硅谷许多人都在密切关注Cerebras的IPO。
Much of Silicon Valley was eagerly anticipating the Cerebras IPO this week.
这场重磅上市可能预示着未来的发展趋势。
The big debut could be a sign of things to come.
与此同时，本周还有一则意外消息：OpenAI正在考虑起诉苹果，这也可能是一个信号，预示着未来会发生什么。
Meanwhile, in some unexpected news this week, OpenAI is considering a lawsuit against Apple that could also be a sign of what's to come.
为了深入分析这些新闻，我请来了我们的联合执行主编马丁·皮尔斯，以及旧金山分社社长杰森·迪恩，一起来参加本期《编辑精选》。
To break down all of these headlines, I want to bring on Martin Peers, our co executive editor, and Jason Dean, our San Francisco Bureau Chief, for this week's edition of The Editor's Cut.
欢迎二位。
Welcome to you both.
马丁，我先从你开始。
Martin, I want to start with you.
所以，OpenAI 和苹果之间这是要闹剧了吗？
So, is OpenAI an Apple drama?
这事我们之前有预料到吗？
Did we see this one coming?
没有。
No.
事实上，埃隆·马斯克早就起诉了他们两家，说他们联手对付他。
In fact, Elon Musk had filed legal action against both of them, claiming that they were colluding against him.
所以没人料到这一出。
So I don't think anybody saw this coming.
但回头想想，其实早该想到的，因为没多久前，OpenAI 刚收购了 TBPN，正式进军科技媒体领域。
But I think we should have seen it coming because you remember that not that long ago, OpenAI acquired TBPN, putting it into the tech media business.
现在我终于明白他们为什么要这么做了。
And I really think that now we understand why they did that.
除了马斯克之外，OpenAI 算是近年来最引人注目的科技新闻源头了。
OpenAI is one of the greatest sources of tech news that we have seen in a long time, aside only from Elon Musk.
所以，拥有一个科技媒体平台，意味着他们实现了垂直整合。
And in that regard, owning a tech media outlet means that they are vertically integrated.
这不过是他们这种做法的最新例证罢了。
And so this is just the latest example of that.
说实话，这说明这家公司还不够成熟，真该请个专业的公关团队了——哪家公司会这么明目张胆地泄露消息？
I mean really it's a sign that this company is not very mature and they need a real PR team because what company leaks so obviously?
所有报道都引用了匿名的 OpenAI 高管对苹果的抱怨。
All the reports were quoting an unnamed OpenAI executive complaining about Apple.
这简直就像在演业余剧一样。
It just seems like amateur hour.
明白了。
Okay.
所以，杰森，你怎么看？
So, Jason, what are you thinking?
我待会儿再听你说。
I'm going to come back to you.
不过，杰森，你有什么想法？
But, Jason, what are your thoughts?
我觉得，这背后可能不止是为了提升TPN的收视率。
I think, there's probably more to it than than, trying to juice TPN's ratings.
但马丁说的这点确实有道理。
But that is that is a fair point by Martin.
不是的。
No.
我觉得，你看啊。
I think, look.
苹果在人工智能上没什么亮眼表现，这肯定让OpenAI很失望。
You know, Apple's failure to do anything impressive with AI has to be disappointing to, OpenAI.
我的意思是，他们和苹果达成合作的时候，其实给苹果增添了不少人工智能方面的信誉，这一点很难不承认。
I mean, in in a way that's a little bit, hard to imagine, they actually lent Apple quite a bit of credibility when they you know, AI cred when they did that deal.
可苹果是怎么回报的呢？把OpenAI的交互功能藏在了他们那套复杂得要命的设置系统深处。
And, you know, Apple's repaid that by burying this OpenAI interactivity in the bowels of their labyrinthine, settings system.
你根本找不到，除非你专门去搜ChatGPT上怎么开启这个功能。
You really can't find it unless you, like, do a chat GPT search about where to go to turn it on.
这真的让人非常失望。
It's been profoundly disappointing.
现在很难想象苹果故意在AI上拖后腿，就是为了跟ChatGPT较劲，可他们的抱怨里，几乎就透着这层意思。
Now I it's hard to imagine that Apple is failing at AI just to spite ChatGPT, which, is almost seems to be the subtext of their complaints.
不过，倒是可以理解，他们对现在这个结果感到不满，也是有原因的。
But, you know, one can imagine why they would, why they would not be pleased with how this has panned out.
而且很明显，苹果现在已经和谷歌、Gemini搭上了线，下个月的WWDC开发者大会，说不定还会宣布其他AI合作伙伴。
And, obviously, Apple is now linked up with Google and Gemini and and and may well be announcing other AI partners at WWDC developer conference next month.
我得说，我对这种看法完全不敢苟同。
I have to say I don't agree with that take at all.
在我看来，ChatGPT已经成了人工智能的代名词。
To me, Tent GPT has become the byword for AI.
我的意思是，这是个家喻户晓的品牌名字。
I mean, it's a brand name that everybody knows.
OpenAI抱怨苹果，简直就像在把他们自己生意上的问题怪到苹果头上，可那些问题明明是他们自己造成的，完全缺乏专注力。
The fact that OpenAI is complaining about Apple, it's almost like they're blaming Apple for the issues that they've had with their business, which is really their own fault and their complete lack of any kind of focus.
我真的搞不懂。
I mean, I really just don't understand.
他们根本不需要苹果也能成功。
They don't need Apple to be successful.
我觉得苹果在AI领域表现不佳，跟OpenAI一点关系都没有，也不会影响到他们。
And I don't really see that the fact that Apple hasn't done so well in AI has anything to do with or has any impact on OpenAI.
我觉得问题全在OpenAI自己身上，他们太贪多，什么都想做，才把事情搞砸了。
I think it's just their own entirely OpenAI's fault that they have screwed things up because they've been so focused on so many different things.
等等，马丁，我想先退一步说点别的。
Well, and I just want to backtrack a second here, Martin.
咱们得说清楚一点。
Let's be clear here.
据我们所知，他们到底想投诉什么实质内容？
What is the substance of the complaint that they're considering as far as we know?
听起来杰森对这事比我还清楚。
Jason sounds like he understands it more than I do.
我觉得核心就是，他们没从合作里得到预期的东西。
I think it is essentially that they haven't gotten out of the partnership what they were hoping to get.
但我说过，他们到底指望什么呢？
But as I said, to me, were they expecting?
他们
They
不该把自家的成功寄托在iPhone的分销上。
should not have been relying on iPhone distribution for their own success.
不过，这只是我的看法。
Anyway, that's just my view.
那杰森，你怎么看？
Well, Jason, what do you think?
我一直在想，当初他们宣布合作的时候，这个合作的实质到底是什么？我记得应该是在一场主题演讲上吧？
Because one question I've had is the original partnership, was even the substance of the original partnership when they announced I'm recalling, I think it was a keynote, right?
当时蒂姆·库克出来讲，OpenAI会以某种方式整合进苹果的产品里，对吧？
I mean, Tim Cook came out, he said OpenAI will be used in some capacity, right, for Apple.
我觉得应该就是同一场演讲，他们推出了Apple Intelligence，我没记错吧？
I think this was the same keynote where they, released Apple Intelligence, right, if I'm not mistaken?
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
而且，这合作从来就不是独家的。
And, you know, it was never supposed to be exclusive.
我确实理解马丁的观点，但总得有人把这件事的初衷说清楚。
And, you know, I certainly take Martin's points, but somebody's got to argue the opening eyesight of this.
我觉得确实如此。
And I would say like I would say, yes.
没错。
Yes.
他们成功了，但不是靠苹果的帮助。
They've they've succeeded, but in spite of Apple.
那他们当初指望从这合作里得到什么呢？
And, what did they expect to come out of this?
他们或许期待，一个长期位居全球市值最高、以创新著称的公司，能在AI应用和平台整合上表现得更出色一些。
Well, they might have expected a company that, for a long time, was the highest valued in the world and that brags about its, innovative abilities to be a little more competent at doing AI and integrating that into its platforms.
iPhone之所以成功，主要是因为用户喜欢用那个应用，而不是因为苹果怎么执行了这个合作。
I mean, iPhone has been big for for Chat Chikativa test just because people like to use the app.
即便当初这个合作从一开始就是有限的，苹果在执行上也没起到多大作用。
It's not really got anything to do with how, Apple has implemented and executed on that original partnership even though it, yes, was limited from the get go.
明白了。
Okay.
那我们来聊聊本周另一个大新闻吧。
So I want to move to another big headline of the week.
Cerebras 上市了。
So Cerebras went public.
股价一下就涨了。
The stock popped.
Martin，这种情形我们不是第一次见了。
Martin, we have seen this before.
接下来几周，你预期会怎样？
What are you expecting in the weeks to come?
我觉得它会慢慢跌回去。
I'm expecting it will gradually fall.
今天早上已经跌了。
It's already down this morning.
整个市场都在跌，它也跟着往下走。
The whole market is down and it is falling with it.
我的意思是，现在大家对人工智能都特别乐观。
I mean, we're in a very upbeat mood right now about AI.
只要这种势头持续下去，对其他准备上市的公司来说肯定是好事。
I think that that's good for the other companies that are planning to go public as long as it lasts.
但我认为这不会长久。
Now, I don't think it will last.
大家普遍觉得当前市场已经高得离谱，迟早会回落。
I think there's a widespread expectation that the market is very high right now and is going to fall.
我觉得SpaceX可能就是想趁市场还没跌之前赶紧上市。
And I think one of the issues about SpaceX is they're probably trying to get out as fast as they can before the market falls.
等到那时候，任何人想上市都会难上加难。
And you know what will happen at that point, it will be harder for anyone to go public.
还有油价的问题，伊朗战争导致全球石油供应紧张，这肯定会拖累经济。
And there is this overhang of the oil price and the fact that the war in Iran has created, there isn't enough oil for the world and that's going to affect the economy.
等这些影响真正传导到各个领域，市场就会开始下跌了。
Once that begins to really flow through to things, I think you will see the market will fall.
现在只是时间问题了。
And it's now just a question of time.
所以我觉得我们眼下看到的只是个短期波动。
So I think this is a very short term blip that we're seeing.
Cerebras的股价，今天早上大概是2.89美元，但很可能还会回到115美元左右，那才是他们原本计划上市时的价位。
And Cerebras stock, is I think this morning is around $2.89, will probably be back around 115, which is where they were originally planning to go public.
所以杰森，你不是最爱辩论吗？你现在会说市场还会继续涨吗？
So Jason, because you love a good debate, are you going to argue now that the market is going to continue to rise?
我可不会断言市场会一路稳稳地上涨。
Well, I'm not going to prognosticate steady, unmitigated up into the right.
我觉得短期市场确实会震荡，但长期投资者更关注的是远景，而不是未来六到十二个月的表现。
I think, you know, markets in the short term can be choppy, but, you know, long term holders here are thinking about Horizon more than the next six to twelve months.
如果你从这个角度看，Cerebras的未来确实可能非常光明。
And, if you're looking at it from that perspective, yeah, the future could be quite bright for Cerebras.
没错，他们的估值现在高得离谱，甚至超过了英伟达，就算今天早上跌了一点也一样，但这主要是因为他们打算从英伟达手里抢市场份额。
I mean, yes, their valuation is, like, astronomically higher than that of NVIDIA even despite this morning's, this morning's dip, on on a, you know, price to earnings multiple, but, that's because they're gonna take market share from NVIDIA.
未来属于推理。
The future is inference.
推理在人工智能计算中的比重会比以前大得多。
It's gonna be a much bigger part of AI compute, than it has been.
现在其实已经非常大了。
It's already pretty huge.
他们的芯片不仅比别人的都大——这本身就很厉害，而且在推理任务上表现更优，能解决英伟达和其他公司GPU在这一领域遇到的很多问题。
And, you know, they have chips that are not only bigger than everybody else's, which, let's face it, is pretty cool, but also are just, like, better at at doing inference and solving a lot of the problems that, that GPUs, from NVIDIA and other companies have at that task.
所以我觉得，这可不是什么新来者。
So I think, and this is not a Johnny come lately either.
他们已经存在十年了。
They've been around for a decade.
在开发这项技术方面，他们有扎实的成果，还拥有一些重要的合作伙伴。
They've got a pretty proven track record of developing this technology, and they have some pretty important partners.
所以，是的，股价可能不会一直维持在这么高的位置。
So, yes, it may not stay aloft at the altitude.
短期来看，昨天已经出现了转折，但从长远看，有充分的理由保持乐观。
It's, it hit yesterday in the near term, but I think longer term, you can make a case that there's a there's a there's a reason to be bullish.
听我说。
Listen.
你觉得他们能发展到多大规模？
How big do you think they can get?
在我看来，他们面对的竞争对手太多了，我实在不明白他们怎么才能脱颖而出。
I mean, it seems to me that they're up against an awful lot of competition and I don't really understand how they can gain.
别人买不到别的芯片时，他们或许能当个替代选择，但真能长期打败英伟达，甚至谷歌或亚马逊的芯片吗？
They're there as an option when people can't get other chips, but really are they going to be able to defeat Nvidia long term or even Google or Amazon chips?
我觉得不太可能。
Just I don't think so.
他们不需要彻底击败那些公司，也能拥有巨大的前景。具体比例我不清楚，但可以肯定的是，很多有影响力的角色都希望AI芯片的供应链能比现在多元得多。
They don't need to completely defeat those companies I to have a massive future don't know the percentage exactly, but I would say, you know, there there is a lot of interest from a lot of powerful parties for there to be a much more diverse chip supply ecosystem for AI than there has been.
这个行业的很多高成本、问题和瓶颈，根源就在于它完全依赖英伟达的GPU。
I mean, this this industry, many of the, inflated costs and, problems and bottlenecking all come from the fact that the industry is still absolutely dependent on NVIDIA GPUs.
但这种情况不可能像现在这样持续三五年甚至十年。
That's clearly not gonna be the case in the same way, you know, three, five, ten years from now.
而且肯定不会只有Cerebras一家。
And it won't just be Cerebras, obviously.
正如你所说，谷歌和亚马逊都在自研芯片，而且进展不小。
As you point out, Google and Amazon are building their own chips, and making a lot of progress.
但整个市场会变得更大，我觉得Cerebras完全有机会分到更大一块蛋糕。
But it's going to be a bigger pie, I think there's definitely a chance for Cerebras to have a bigger piece of it.
或者Martin，你前几天的简报里提到过一个可能性，不过现在股价涨了这么多，这个选项可能更难实现了。
Or Martin, one more op you floated this option in your briefing the other night, and it might be a little harder now that the stock is up so much.
但Cerebras还是有可能被收购，连同他们的技术一起。
But Cerebras could get bought potentially and their technology did.
不过
Although
我觉得股价涨到这个程度，被收购的可能性基本没了。
I think the chance of that have probably gone out the window with the stock going up so much.
所以我不明白，现在谁会愿意出这么高的价格。
So don't know why anyone would pay the kind of price that you would have to pay now.
我觉得在上市之前，这还算是个选项。
I think that was an option before the IPO.
如果市场不是现在这样，情况可能会大不一样。
And if the market had not been like this, things might have gone very differently.
很好。
I Great.
我们到底得到了什么。
Get what we So
嗯，我。
Well, I
感谢你们两位前来做客。
want to thank you both for coming on.
这位是我们的联合执行主编马丁·皮尔斯，这位是《信息》杂志旧金山分社社长杰森·迪恩。
That is Martin Peers, our co executive editor, and Jason Dean, our San Francisco Bureau Chief here at The Information.
我们下一位嘉宾是打造真正有人用的产品的资深专家。
Our next guest is a well established expert in building products that people will actually use.
马特·罗杰斯曾是苹果公司早期的iPhone工程师。
Matt Rogers was an early engineer of the iPhone at Apple.
他是恒温器公司Nest的联合创始人，这家公司后来以32亿美元卖给了谷歌；现在他专注于可持续发展领域，创办了一家叫Mill的食品浪费处理公司。
He is the co founder of Nest, the thermostat company that sold to Google for $3,200,000,000 and now he is working squarely in the sustainability sector with a food waste company called Mill.
我想请他来聊聊他对硅谷现状的种种看法。
I want to bring him on to chat about all of his points of view on the current state of play in Silicon Valley.
马特，欢迎来到节目。
Matt, welcome to the show.
很高兴你能来。
It's great to have you here.
谢谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
我对这次对话特别期待。
I'm excited for this one.
所以，你是说，你从iPhone转到恒温器，现在又搞起了垃圾桶？
So look, I mean, let's can I just understand that you went from iPhone to thermostat to trash cans?
这就是你的职业路径？
That's the career trajectory?
其实，当年托尼和我刚创办Nest的时候，别人也笑话我们。
You got actually, folks laughed when Tony and I started Nest the first time around too.
你看，
Look.
这些才是我作为工程师和设计师真正想解决的问题。
It's the and these are the kind of problems that I feel like as an engineer and designer, I became an engineer to solve.
太多人追着最新的潮流跑，但真正愿意花心思解决这些重大现实问题的世界级设计师和工程师，实在太少了。
There's so many people chasing the latest shiny object, but there are just so few world class designers and engineers working on these really important real world problems.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
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那说说这个垃圾桶吧。
So tell me about the trash can.
这可不只是个垃圾桶。
It's more than a trash can.
我这话说得有点绕了。
I'm being a little wise here.
没错。
Yes.
Mill 是一家食物回收公司。
So Mill is a food recycling company.
它通过硬件和人工智能，帮助家庭和企业轻松减少食物浪费，了解哪些食物被浪费了，还能省下不少钱。
It combines hardware and AI to make it easy for people at home and businesses to reduce their food waste, learn more about what food is being wasted, and to actually save a lot of money.
你可能不信，但美国每年浪费的食物价值高达四千亿美元。
Believe it or not, the value of wasted food in America is like $400,000,000,000 a year.
这相当于国内生产总值的百分之一以上。
It's like one plus percent of GDP.
这是一个我们每天都在面对的巨大问题，但实际上我们完全可以做点什么来解决它。
It's like giant problem that we live with every day that we actually could do a lot about.
那你是怎么对这个想法产生兴趣的？毕竟你之前是从恒温器公司出来的。
And how did you get hooked on this idea, you know, coming out of the thermostat company?
是的。
Yeah.
我一直对这类事情特别着迷。
I've been obsessed with these kinds of things.
在苹果工作时，我的训练之一就是学会留意那些我们每天都在做的事，然后认真去思考它们。
Like, part of my training at Apple was to be able to see these things and, you know, we do every day and actually think about them.
疫情初期，大家都被困在家里，生活一团糟，那时候我突然意识到，这个问题其实是可以解决的。
And during the early days of the pandemic when we were all stuck at home living in our own filth, it became very obvious that this is one of those problems that could be solved.
我家那时候到处都是果蝇，肯定有更聪明的办法。
Like, my house was getting full of fruit flies, and there had to have a better way.
对。
Yeah.
但你是怎么想的？我是说，你能不能帮我理清楚一下？
But like how like, I mean, just help me understand.
你当时坐在那儿，满屋子都是果蝇，到底是哪个瞬间让你决定要创办一家公司来解决这个问题？
Like, know, what are you, sitting there with fruit flies, and you're like, I have like, what was the moment that you were like, I'm going to build a company to solve this issue?
你本来可以做任何事的。
I mean, you could have done anything.
是的。
Yeah.
在被Nest收购之后，我和我妻子开始大量投资气候领域的公司。
So like post Nest acquisition, my wife and I do a lot of investing in climate companies.
我们也积极参与气候相关的慈善事业。
We do a lot of philanthropy in climate.
而废弃物在气候问题中占了很大一部分。
And waste is a big part of the climate equation.
食物浪费占了全球温室气体排放的百分之十左右。
It's like 10% of global emissions is food waste.
这个问题其实大家都知道。
So the problem is is really well known.
家里有果蝇，想做好垃圾分类、自己堆肥，结果发现这事儿真没那么简单。
At living with the kind of the fruit flies, trying to do the right thing, trying to compost at home, it became very clear, like, this is not an easy thing to do.
如果连这都这么难，根本没人愿意做。
And if it's this hard to do, no one's gonna do it.
你知道的，老话说得好，人总是挑最省事的路走。
You know, it's, know, it kinda like the old adage of like, people are gonna find the easiest way out.
要是在家堆肥难，在公司堆肥也难，那干脆就没人做了。
And if composting at home is hard, if composting at work is hard, just no one's gonna do it.
所以我们决定做个简单易行的方案，按我们一贯的工程和设计思路来搞。
So we set out to make it an easy way to do it and, you know, do following our normal kind of engineering and design process.
最后做出了我们的第一款产品，之后当然也迭代了好几轮。
We arrived at what became our first product, and we've obviously made several iterations since then.
我得问一下，因为这个产品真的让我特别着迷。
And I I have to ask because I'm just so fascinated by this product.
你能说说这堆肥到底是怎么操作的吗？
Like, can you just explain how the composting actually happened?
我平时都是把剩饭剩菜直接扔进垃圾桶。
I mean, I put my leftovers into the trash bin.
食物垃圾到底怎么被处理，最后怎么变成肥料的？
What actually happens to compost something, you know, and then turn it into mill at the end of day?
这简直就像魔法一样。
It is straight up magic.
你把所有的厨余垃圾放进去，连盘子上刮下来的残渣、菜板上的碎屑都可以扔进去。
And what happens is you put all your food scraps in, you kind of wipe your dinner plate in, you're cutting board scraps.
想装多少都行。
You could fill it up if you want.
这东西能装好几磅的厨余垃圾。
You can get pounds of food waste in this thing.
到了第二天早上，你一睁眼，垃圾全没了。
And you wake up the next morning, and it's gone.
看起来太棒了。
It looks sick.
但从科学角度来说，到底发生了什么？
But then scientifically, like, what what happens?
其实就是脱水。
It's just dehydration.
里面根本没发生任何微生物作用。
So no actual microbial stuff is happening in there.
根本不是真正的堆肥。
No actual composting.
只是把食物里的水分抽走，而食物大部分都是水。
It is just pulling the water out of food, and food is mostly water.
把水分抽干后，东西就变干了，变得很轻，不会变质，也不会有异味，更不会腐烂。
When So you pull the water out, it gets dry, it gets very light, it doesn't go bad, it doesn't smell, it doesn't rot.
这技术本身其实挺直观的，但按照苹果一贯的做法，有时候重要的不是技术突破，而是整合。
It's kind of an obvious technology, but in the traditional Apple way, sometimes it's not about a technology breakthrough, it's about integration.
关键是把设计、易用性、硬件和软件全都整合在一起，让整个过程变得特别简单。
It's about taking design and usability and hardware and software and putting all these things together to make it really easy.
所以这本质上就是个压缩过程？
So it's probably just like compression thing then?
就是把水分都挤出去那种感觉？
You're just sort of squeezing all the water out type of thing?
我们是慢慢把它转起来的。
We we we kind of we turn it slowly.
然后加上一点热量。
We add heat.
整个晚上慢慢加热，水分就全蒸发掉了。
And over the course of the evening, it evaporates all the water out.
我们还在开发一个更大版本，给餐厅和超市用。
We also are making a larger scale version for restaurants and grocery stores.
大得多得多。
Like much, much bigger.
想象一下一天中水流不断的过程。
Think like streams of a day.
这当然要消耗更多能量，但对企业来说，这是省钱的好办法。
And and obviously, that takes a lot more energy to do, but for businesses, it's a really good way to save money.
有人找你谈过收购公司的事吗？
Do you have you gotten offers to to sell the company yet?
你以前卖过一家公司吧。
You sold the best before this.
那次我可是吃了大亏才明白的。
I've learned my lesson the hard way on that one.
我觉得我们会一直做下去。
I think we're in it for the long haul.
你不想卖。
You don't want to sell.
我不想卖。
I don't want to sell.
你看，有很多创始人卖得太早，结果放弃了原本的使命。
Look, there's so many stories of founders who have sold too early and have given up the mission.
想想这个问题有多大，这事儿我们得坚持到底。
Think thinking about how big this problem is, this is a problem we should take all the way.
好吧，那你具体说说看。
Okay, well, but tell me about that.
你把Nest卖了32亿美元，后悔吗？
So you sold Nest for $3,200,000,000 Do you regret selling it?
时机真的太关键了，我现在每天用的那些家用产品，感觉和我们当年卖公司时没什么两样。
Timing is everything, and I think about the products that we use at home every day, and it still feels like they were when we sold the company years back.
尤其是有了AI之后，这些产品本可以好上很多。
And especially with the advent of AI, these products could be so much better today.
所以，也许我们确实卖早了。
So, yeah, maybe we sold too early.
你们是哪一年卖的？
What year did you sell it in?
2013年。
2013.
2013年，明白了。
2013, okay.
是啊，现在都过去好久了。
Yeah, it's been a long time now.
哇。
Wow.
那收购之后，你在谷歌待了多久？
I guess, how long did you stick around at Google then after the acquisition?
对，我在谷歌待了五年。
Yes, I was at Google for five years.
我一开始负责带领Nest团队，后来把它整合进谷歌的硬件部门，那之后我就离开了，去创业了。
I helped lead the kind of Nest division when it was independent, and then merged it back into the Google kind of hardware organization, and that and that's when I when I left to start my own thing.
如果重来一次，你觉得自己在被收购后，作为独立公司运营的话，会有什么不一样的做法？
So, I mean, what would you if you if you look at Nest, I mean, I don't even know how the product is developed, but what would you maybe have done differently than post acquisition if you were just remaining an independent company?
我觉得应该想想
Well, I think about
到底该有多少种产品存在，想想你每天在家接触的东西。
the number of products that should exist, you think about the things that you touch every day at home.
还有很多产品，感觉还是上世纪八十年代的水平，就算新，也难用得很。
There are still so many of our products that feel like they're from the nineteen eighties, or they're new, but just hard to use.
你有没有花时间留意过中国最近推出的一些产品？
And I don't know if if you are you know, spent some time looking at some of the latest products out of China.
小米就是个很好的例子。
I think about, like, Xiaomi is a great example of this.
他们在家庭产品和科技方面，已经远远甩开我们了。
They have leapfrogged us when it comes to home products and technology.
所以我觉得这背后有
So I think there's this
对那些不太了解的人，你具体指的是哪些产品？
What what for those of us who don't know, what what what are those products you're referring to?
小米最初是一家手机公司。
So Xiaomi started out as a phone company.
他们几乎像是苹果的竞争对手，现在已经打造了一个完整的生态体系，包括恒温器、空调、厨电、安防系统，甚至电动汽车。
They were, like, almost like a competitor to Apple and have effectively built out an entire ecosystem, thermostats, air conditioners, cooking appliances, security systems, and even electric vehicles.
他们几乎什么都有了。
They've built literally everything.
而且他们的产品设计得非常好，操作简单，价格也很亲民。
And they're they're really well designed, they're easy to use, and they're very affordable.
所以我觉得，已经有一个现成的模式可以复制了。
So I think, like, there's a model out there of kind of doing the whole thing.
在美国，我觉得依然有同样的机会。
And, like, I think there's still that opportunity in The US.
如果你没把Nest卖了，你觉得会把它扩展到哪些领域？
So had you not sold Nest, you you think you would have expanded it into into what?
我的意思是，你会往哪些方向拓展？
I mean, what would you have expanded into?
如果你想想我们每天在家接触和使用的整套产品，我觉得这个机会依然存在。
If you think about the whole suite of products that we live with and touch every day in the home, I think that opportunity still exists.
我不是随口说说的。
Look, I don't say it flippantly.
也许我们当初会进军电动汽车之类的领域。
Maybe we would've went out on electric vehicles or something like that.
这个机会空间非常大，但能同时在硬件、软件创新以及整合这些产品方面做到世界级的公司，真的没几家，尤其是在美国。
The opportunity space is really large, and there are only so many companies out there, especially in The US, that are world class at innovation in hardware and software and putting these things together.
除了苹果和OpenAI的团队，我想不出还有哪个团队能比Nest的更出色。
Outside of the team at Apple and OpenAI, I can't think of a better team than the one at Nest.
我们待会儿再聊苹果和OpenAI。
We're going talk about Apple and OpenAI.
我能问一个问题吗？
Can I just ask one question?
你卖的时候卖了32亿美元，可不是白送的。
You sold this for $3,200,000,000 You didn't sell it for nothing.
你卖了几十亿美元。
You sold it for billions of dollars.
那感觉是什么样的？
What is it like then?
我把自己本可以做得更大的东西给了别人，这种感觉是怎样的？
What is the feeling then that I gave something away that I could have turned into something bigger?
是的。
Yes.
这根本不是钱的问题。
It's it's really not about the financial outcome.
真正重要的是使命。
It's really about the mission.
这一直都是推动我的动力。
And that that's always what's driven me.
所以我才选择当创始人。
That's why I became a founder.
这些问题太重要了。
These problems are so important.
我一直在想，当年我们做Nest时想解决的核心问题——家庭节能，到现在还是个大问题。
I think about the problem in you know, the core problem we were trying to solve at Nest was around home energy, and that's still a problem today.
没错。
Right.
确实如此。
Right.
想想现在有多少公司在搞新型电池、热泵，努力让我们更高效地给电动车充电，还有啊，恒温器也远远没达到理想状态。
Think about all the companies that are forming around trying to create new batteries and heat pumps and, you know, trying to help us more efficiently charge our vehicles and hell, like thermostats still need a lot of help.
所以，真正重要的还是使命，是完成这个使命。
So it's really more about the mission and accomplishing the mission.
回头看看过去十年家庭科技的发展，感觉和我卖公司那会儿没什么两样。
Look, I think back to what the last decade is for home technology, it still feels about the same as when I sold the company.
明白了。
Okay.
你提到OpenAI和苹果，我想聊聊这两家公司。
So you talk about OpenAI and Apple, and I want to talk about those two companies both.
你觉得OpenAI在硬件方面的野心怎么样？
What do you think of OpenAI's hardware ambitions?
我觉得他们会遇到和其他公司在这类AI硬件领域同样的问题。
I think they're going to come to find many of the same things that others have done in this kind of hardware AI space.
我想起以前那些倒在半路上的公司，你知道，曾经冒出过多少AI智能别针之类的玩意儿。
I think about the graveyard of companies that have come before and you know, like how many AI pins have been out there.
他们估计也会搞点AI智能别针之类的东西。
Like they're gonna try to do some AI pin things.
他们可能还会试着做类似谷歌Home或Alexa的产品，但大概率也会失败。
They may try to do a Google Home, Alexa style product that will probably fail too.
最后，他们终究得去造一部手机。
And eventually they're gonna need to build a phone.
我已经听说一些风声了，说他们其实已经开始考虑开发手机了。
And I think there's been some rumors out there already that, yeah, they're starting to look at building a phone.
这简直太讽刺了，乔尼·艾维，这位史蒂夫·乔布斯亲自挑选的传人，最后居然会去造一部安卓手机。
And I think it's utterly ironic that Johnny Ive, you know, the chosen disciple of Steve Jobs, will end up building an Android phone.
我真的完全想不通。
Again, it just literally blows my mind.
所以你是看好OpenAI会推出手机，是吧？
And and so you're you're bullish on on an OpenAI phone then, it sounds like.
那又是另一回事了。
Oh, that's a different that's a different story.
我觉得他们肯定会做。
I think they're gonna do it.
关键在于，这手机会不会很出色？
The question is will it be great?
会吗？
Will
会吗？
it?
要超越苹果或者三星，真的很难，很多人都试过。
It is very hard to beat Apple, to beat Samsung at this game, and many have tried.
很多人可能知道，我想到那些曾经尝试过的优秀团队。
Many may like, know, again, I think about even some of the, you know, the great teams out there that have tried.
比如安迪·鲁宾几年前就创办了一家公司，想打造一款全新的全整合手机。
Like, you know, Andy Rubin started a company years back to try to build, like, a new fully integrated phone.
其实，已经有不少人尝试过了。
I think there, you know, there's been a lot of folks who've tried.
这件事真的特别难。
It's really hard to do.
关键在于应用生态。
The key is the app ecosystem.
就算你做出了一部很棒的手机，又怎么吸引足够多的开发者，带来足够多的应用体验呢？
Even if you build a great phone, how do you bring enough developers, enough app experiences to the phone?
这正是他们必须这么做原因——得把应用和开发者拉过来，跟他们的AI服务打通。
That's ultimately why they need to do it, is they need to bring the apps and developers there to tie into their AI service.
但这件事真的很难做到。
But it's very hard to do that.
说到底，市场上能撑起来的生态系统没几个。
Like, there's only going be so many ecosystems out there.
不过我想问问你关于苹果的事，因为你参与了初代iPhone的一些早期工作。
Now, I do want to ask you about Apple because you were involved in some of the earliest stages of the iPhone.
你曾经和史蒂夫·乔布斯一起共事。
You worked with Steve Jobs.
我们一会儿再聊他们现在的AI战略，但苹果刚任命了新的CEO。
We'll talk about the AI strategy in a second as is currently, but Apple has you know, they've named a new CEO.
你觉得他们选得怎么样？
What do you think of their pick?
我觉得这人选再自然不过了，说实话。
I think it's the natural pick, honestly.
而且过去两三年，他们早就把这事儿暗示得明明白白了。
And, you know, they couldn't have telegraphed it better over the last two, three years.
你知道，约翰接下来要面对的任务可不轻。
You know, John's got a big task ahead of him.
我要关注的是，尤其是考虑到未来几年我还要持续报道这个行业，苹果的路线图其实早就定好了。
The thing I would look at and, you know, especially thinking about, like, as, you know, reporting on this on this industry for the next couple years, the roadmap is already baked.
苹果的规划一向提前两三年，甚至有些计划都排到四年之后了。
You know, Apple plans two, three, even some of this four years out.
所以今年秋天你看到的产品，还有明年、后年的那些，其实都是蒂姆掌舵时就已经敲定的。
So the products you see this fall, even the proxy next year, the year after, those are all products that kind of were done under Tim's leadership.
我现在最关心的是，他打算怎么处理人才问题？
The thing that I'm looking at is, you know, what is he gonna do with talent?
苹果的高管团队很多都待了三四年，甚至更久。
Apple's executive team has been there for thirty, forty years.
有些人从八十年代就开始在公司了。
Some have been there since the nineteen eighties.
苹果在吸引外部新人才并留住他们，或者从内部培养新一代人才方面，一直做得不够好。
And Apple has not done a great job either a, bringing in new outside talent and keeping them or developing kind of the new young talent from within.
尤其是在AI飞速发展的这个时代，培养和引进新人才真的特别重要。
And especially thinking about this age of AI when things are changing really fast, developing and bringing in new talent is really, really important.
所以这正是我会关注的重点。
So that's the thing that I'll be watching.
那他们目前在AI领域的状况怎么样？
And what about their AI the current state of play in AI?
我们之前已经深入报道过Siri的现状以及他们遇到的困难。
I mean, we have reported extensively on the current state of Siri and the challenges they've had.
他们当然也尝试过自主研发模型。
They obviously have tried to build their own models.
还转向了谷歌合作。
They've turned to Google.
既然你曾经和史蒂夫·乔布斯共事过，你觉得他会怎么评价苹果现在的AI策略？
Given that you worked with Steve Jobs, what do you think he would say about Apple's current strategy with AI?
我觉得和谷歌合作这个决定非常明智。
I think the partnership with Google is really smart.
他们一开始就应该这么干。
That is what they should have done to start with.
对。
Yeah.
开发和训练这些前沿模型所需的工程投入、资本支出和资金数额真是惊人。
The amount of engineering, CapEx, dollars spent to build and train these frontier models is extraordinary.
而苹果实际上是以极低的成本拿到了顶尖的技术，据报道称花了十亿美元左右，但这跟谷歌自己研发的成本比起来，简直微不足道。
And Apple's effectively getting the best of breed for, well, like reported a billion dollars, something like that, which is, you know, it's like pennies on the dollar in terms of what it costs Google to develop.
我觉得他们用的这个策略真的很了不起。
So I think it's remarkable the, you know, the strategy they're using.
他们根本没必要自己拥有模型，尤其是未来几年，模型本身会越来越像标准化产品。
Like, they don't need to own the model and especially kind of the where things are going over the next few years, the models are more or less commodity.
你可以从谷歌、OpenAI、Anthropic，或者中国的一些开源模型里，挑出最好的那个。
You you could pick your the best of breed from Google, from OpenAI, from Anthropic, from some of the open source models from China.
根本没必要自己动手去开发和训练模型。
And you don't need to build and train the models yourself.
关键是应用层，而这正是苹果的强项。
The key is the application layer, and that is what Apple's really good at.
但好吧。
But okay.
所以你是觉得，史蒂夫·乔布斯当初可能会直接去找谷歌合作吗？
So so you think you think I mean, Steve Jobs might've gone to Google right away then for for some kind of a partnership.
史蒂夫在这方面可是出了名的。
I mean, Steve was notorious for this.
他总是倾向于建立合作关系，而不是事事都非要自己从头发明。
Like he would build partnerships instead of the kind of we need to invent it ourselves model all the time.
或者他会从外面引进现成的技术。
Or he would bring things in from the outside.
我觉得触控技术就是我那个时代最典型的例子。
I think about touch technology as one of the greatest examples from my era.
苹果并没有发明触控技术。
So Apple didn't invent touch technology.
那是早期我们引进的一家小创业公司，专门做触屏版的Mac。
That was a small startup that we brought in in the early days to make a touchscreen Mac.
把iPod的硬件和触屏Mac结合起来，这就是iPhone的诞生过程。
Bringing the kind of iPod hardware with the touchscreen Mac, merging those things together, that was the birth of the iPhone.
史蒂夫特别擅长这一套，总能找到市面上最好的技术，然后带进苹果。
You know, Steve was really good at this, about finding the best things out there and bringing it to Apple.
那既然你提到了生态系统和应用，这确实是公司的一大重点。
Well, so then if if if eco I mean, you mentioned ecosystem and apps as a a big focus for the company.
我想知道，你怎么看待苹果在审核某些Vibe编码应用时反应迟缓，甚至故意拖延的做法？
I wonder how you feel then about this conflict of Apple blocking, or maybe not blocking, but really dragging their feet on approving certain vibe coding apps from being approved in the App Store.
这周我们有个报道，讲的是苹果正在头疼怎么应对自主型AI，以及单个应用对电脑多个部分的控制权问题。
We had a story this week about Apple trying to figure out how it's going to deal with agentic AI and the control that a single app could have over different parts of the computer.
听上去我觉得，或许保持App Store的严格筛选反而更有道理？
I mean, sounds to me then like I don't know, what you might be on the perspective of, well, it's actually good to keep the App Store very curated then.
我这么理解，对吗？
Am I reading you right?
我的意思是，应用商店确实需要开放，但苹果在确保iOS平台安全方面做得非常好。
I mean, the App Store needs to be open, but Apple has done a really good job making sure that the iOS platform is very safe.
这也是iPhone能如此成功的原因之一——作为普通消费者或企业用户，你都知道这个平台总体上很安全，不容易被黑客攻击，所有应用都经过精心筛选。
And it's one of the things that has made the iPhone such a successful product is, as a general consumer or business user out there, you know that generally speaking, it's a safe platform, you're free from hacking and things are well curated.
他们在这方面确实做得相当出色。
And they've done a really good job doing that.
回想我在Nest的时候，有几次我们的Nest应用也被拒了，我不得不找高层出面才把问题解决。
Think back to my days at Nest, there were a couple of times when even our Nest app got rejected and I had to escalate up to Jaws to to get things resolved.
这很正常，现在也还是这样。
It was a normal thing and it still is a normal thing.
我猜他们现在还在摸索自己的政策，看看哪些地方需要把关，才能保证应用商店的安全。
So I imagine they're still figuring out what their policies are, what things they're gonna be looking at to make sure that the app store is safe.
所以你是给史蒂夫·乔布斯打电话，说我的应用没通过审核？
So you called Steve Jobs and said my app is not being approved?
没有。
No.
不是。
No.
不是史蒂夫。
Not Steve.
那是在他已经去世之后了。
This is this is after he had already passed.
格雷格·贾斯维亚克，那个
Greg Jaswiak, the
Jaswiak，哦，不好意思。
Jaswiak, oh, I'm sorry.
我听错了。
I misheard you.
我听错了。
I misheard you.
不好意思。
I'm sorry.
格雷格·贾斯维克，负责苹果的产品和市场营销。
Greg Jaswiak, who leads product and marketing at Apple.
明白了。
Got it.
明白了。
Got it.
对了，我还想再问你一件事。
Hey, one more thing I got to ask you about.
我之前看了你的采访，也查了一些资料。
I was reading up, I was watching your interviews before this.
所以，iPhone 以前本来是要用旋钮的？
So, the iPhone was supposed to have a click wheel before?
天哪。
Oh, my gosh.
是的。
Yeah.
这背后有什么故事吗？
What's the story there?
说起来，现在回头看看真是挺搞笑的。
So actually, it's a hilarious story in hindsight.
那是2006年的事了。
So, this is way back in 2006.
我们当时在开发带旋钮滚轮的iPhone。
We were working on a Clickwheel iPhone.
就像iPod Nano那样，但再长一点，配上旋钮滚轮。
So think like the iPod Nano, a little bit longer, but a Clickwheel.
这其实是我刚全职加入苹果时接手的第一个项目。
And that was literally my first project that I started working on, you know, when I joined Apple full time.
挺酷的，但用起来真不顺手。
It was really cool, but man, it was hard to use.
我们做了好几轮原型后，史蒂夫突然说：嘿。
So we got through a first kind of rounds of prototypes, and Steve's like, hey.
这用起来太麻烦了。
This is way too hard to use.
就在那时，我们开始和做触屏Mac的团队合作，后来这就发展成了iPhone。
And that that's when we kinda got together with this team working on a touchscreen Mac and what eventually would become the iPhone.
所以。
So
我想象中，就像那种转盘电话一样。
it would've been like a rotary phone, I'm imagining.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
想象一下，用转盘滚轮翻联系人，或者发邮件、发短信，那得多难受。
And think about, like, scrolling through your contacts or trying to send an email or SMS with a click wheel.
简直糟透了。
It was awful.
太糟糕了。
Awful.
我的意思是，那玩意儿还挺酷的。
I mean, it was cool.
不过在现在这个复古风盛行的时代，我觉得它说不定还能火一把。
And actually in, today's kinda retro world, I think it'd be a fun hit.
但不行。
But, no.
用起来实在太麻烦了。
It was way too hard to use.
你印象最深的和史蒂夫·乔布斯共事的经历是什么？
Do you what what what is your most vivid, memory of working with Steve Jobs?
我想那是一个星期天。
I think there was a Sunday.
我把新推出的iPod Shuffle带回家给了史蒂夫。
So I had sent Steve home with the new iPod shuffle.
第一代 Shuffle 完全没有按钮。
The first shuffle didn't have any buttons.
就是一个小小的夹子，可以夹在衣服上。
It was a small little clip that you clipped on.
我周五把这东西带回家让他试试，结果周日他助理就给我打来电话，说：‘等一下，乔布斯要跟你说话。’
And I sent him home with it on Friday for him to try out, and I got a call, on a Sunday from his assistant saying, hey.
让乔布斯接电话。
Hold for Steve.
他对用户体验的某些部分提出了非常直接的批评。
And he had some very, direct feedback for me on how he did not like certain parts of the user experience.
可能还带了几句脏话。
There may have been some expletives.
然后‘咔哒’一声，电话挂了。
And then click.
对，我们立马就开始改。
And, yep, I I we went to work.
我们改好了，又给他送回去。
We fixed it, and we got it back to him.
后来呢，我们就没再收到他的消息了。
And, yeah, he we didn't, you know, we didn't hear from him after that.
这说明我们确实解决了他的问题。
So we clearly fixed his problems.
但你知道，他就是这样的领导者。
But, you know, that's the kind of leader he was.
他在苹果的每一个产品细节上都亲力亲为。
He was in the details of every product at Apple.
iPod Shuffle 并不是苹果最畅销的产品，但他坚持要亲自摸一摸、试一试我们推出的每一件东西。
I mean, iPod Shuffle was not Apple's most popular product, but he wanted to make sure that he touched and felt and tried out everything we shipped.
当你看现在硅谷那些掌权的创业者时，谁最让你想起史蒂夫·乔布斯？
As you look at the current slate of entrepreneurs ruling Silicon Valley, which entrepreneur reminds you most of Steve Jobs?
不管是大公司的 CEO，还是小公司的创始人？
Whether it's a big CEO, small CEO?
我的意思是，有谁立刻浮现在你脑海里吗？
Mean, is there someone that comes to mind?
有。
Yeah.
我非常敬佩的一位是Nothing公司的首席执行官卡尔·佩。
Someone I really respect a lot is Carl Pay, the CEO of Nothing.
我认识卡尔很久了，他和乔布斯一样，有着清晰的产品愿景，对客户充满热情和同理心。
I've known Carl for a really long time, and he has the same kind of product vision and, you know, deep passion and empathy for his customers.
我觉得乔布斯了不起的地方，不只是当个好领导，更是真正深入去理解客户会喜欢什么。
And I think about what made Steve great was not just, you know, being a great leader, but really getting into, like, what customers are gonna love.
卡尔从Nothing创立之初就这么做了。
And, you know, Carl has done this since days with nothing.
没错。
Right.
你让卡尔上节目来聊聊吧。
Well, tell Carl to come on the show.
我们真的很想跟他聊聊。
We'd love to chat with him.
谢谢你来参加节目，Matt。
And I wanna thank you for coming on, Matt.
今天在TITV上的嘉宾是Matt Rogers，Nest和Mill的联合创始人，他正在做一些令人兴奋的事情。
Some exciting stuff you're working on that is Matt Rogers, the co founder of Nest and the co founder of Mill here on TITV.
本周我们的周末深度阅读是一篇关于Valar Atomics公司创始人的报道，这家核能初创企业引起了广泛关注，也让不少专家感到惊讶。
Our weekend big read this week is a profile of the man behind Valar Atomics, a nuclear energy startup that has garnered a lot of attention and also raised some eyebrows from experts.
现在邀请到这篇报道的作者Jemima McEvoy。
I'm joined now by the author of that story, Jemima McEvoy.
Jemima，欢迎再次来到节目。
Jemima, welcome back to the show.
很高兴你今天能来。
It's great to have you here.
你去了犹他州。
You went to Utah.
跟我们说说你去犹他州的行程吧。
Tell us about your trip to Utah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我飞到了盐湖城，而反应堆建在离盐湖城大约三小时车程的一个叫埃莫里县的地方，那是犹他州一个历史悠久的煤矿区。
So I flew into Salt Lake City and the reactor is being built about three hours drive from Salt Lake in a place called Emory County, which is a historic coal mining area of Utah.
那地方深入沙漠，离任何像样的城镇都很远。
It's kind of deep in the desert, pretty far away from much in terms of, you know, civilization.
附近倒是有座小城镇。
There's a kind of a small town nearby.
但除此之外，基本就只有沙漠了。
But other than that, mostly just the desert.
瓦拉公司正在犹他州所有的圣拉斐尔能源实验室建设设施。
And Valar is building at the San Rafael Energy Lab, which is owned by the state of Utah.
过去六个月里，他们从一片荒地开始，现在声称几周内就要启动反应堆了，这可是个大事，因为这是美国很久以来首次启用小型模块化反应堆。
And so in the past six months, they've gone from it's just it was just plain ground in Utah to they're claiming that they're gonna turn on their reactor in the next few weeks, which will be a really big deal because it's the first time that a a small modular reactor that has been turned on in The US in a very long time.
所以，确实是个令人兴奋的时刻。
So, yeah, it's it's an exciting time.
瓦拉的技术有什么特别之处？
What is unique about Valar's technology?
你刚才提到小型模块化反应堆。
You mentioned in the story small modular reactors.
你能说说这项技术有多前沿，为什么它这么不一样吗？
Can you tell us a little bit about how cutting edge this technology is and maybe why it's so different?
是的。
Yeah.
其实这技术并不算特别前沿。
So it's actually not necessarily cutting edge.
小型模块化反应堆这个想法早就有了。
Small modular reactors, the idea has been around for a long time.
但历史上，建得最多的还是大型核电站。
But throughout history, mostly what's been built are larger nuclear plants.
小型模块化反应堆体积更小。
Small modular reactors are smaller.
核心想法是，它们比大型电站更容易、更快建成，而大型电站动辄耗资数十亿，还要花上十年时间。
And basically the idea is that they're easier and quicker to build than a bigger plant, which can cost billions and take like a decade.
所以现在整个核能行业都在努力加快步伐。
And so there's this momentum to try to speed up the nuclear industry right now.
过去几十年里，冒出了大约五十家公司，都声称要建造小型反应堆。
And so there's been something like 50 different companies have popped up in the past couple of decades that are promising to build smaller reactors.
他们的设想是，大量生产这种反应堆，用来给数据中心、军事基地这类地方供电。
And the idea is that you build like a ton of them and then you can power a data center or a military base or something like that.
所以瓦拉尔公司所用的技术本身并没有特别突破性。
So the actual technology behind what Valar is doing isn't necessarily groundbreaking.
很多其他公司也在做类似的事情。
A lot of other companies are trying to do it.
更特别的是他们的做法。
It's more their approach that stands out.
那他们的做法是什么？
And what is the approach?
说说他们推进的速度吧，还有你提到的那位很有意思的创始人。
Tell us about how quickly they're moving and also tell us about the founder who is quite the character, you said.
是的。
Yeah.
这位创始人确实是个很特别的人物。
So the founder, he's a really interesting character.
他今年才27岁。
He is 27.
他23、24岁的时候就创办了这家公司，而且没读完高中。
He started this company when he was 23 or 24, and he is a high school dropout.
他从来没接受过核能领域的正规训练。
He has no training, classical training in nuclear energy.
在这之前，他在爱达荷州开过一家汽车修理店。
Before this, he started a auto repair shop in Idaho.
他的曾祖父当年参与过曼哈顿计划。
And so he just his great grandfather worked the Manhattan Project.
他说自己从小就想的是核能这件事。
He said he grew up thinking about nuclear.
到了2023年，他决定创办瓦拉公司。
And in 2023, decided to start Valar.
一开始，投资人根本不知道他是谁。
At first, investors were like, who are you?
不行，我们不投。
No, thank you.
后来他总共见了六十多家风投，终于找到愿意投资的人。
Eventually he did find after pitching 60 different VCs, he found someone who would invest.
现在瓦拉已经成为全球融资最多的中小型模块化反应堆初创公司之一，已经筹到了数亿美元。
And now Valar is one of the best funded small modular reactor startups out there, which is they've raised hundreds of millions of dollars.
他们的做法，我在文章里称之为蛮干。
Their approach is, I describe it in the piece as brute force.
简单说，他们就是决定：不管怎样，先把反应堆建起来。
Essentially, they've just decided like, We are going to build this reactor.
挡在前面的障碍是什么？
What are the obstacles in the way?
一个是监管问题。
One is regulation.
他们认为，美国在核电厂，尤其是小型模块化反应堆的监管上太保守、太严格了。
They argue that The US has been way too conservative and strict on regulating nuclear plants and specifically small modular reactors.
所以去年他们参与了一起针对美国主要监管机构——核管会的诉讼，这似乎促成了一系列重大变化。
And so they joined a lawsuit against the main regulator in The US, the NRC last year, which seems to have potentially led to a lot of change.
政府基本上全面修订了安全规程，这是特朗普政府推动的一项颇具争议的举措，但也让瓦拉尔的建设速度大大加快了。
The government has basically overhauled a lot of their safety procedures, which is a kind of a controversial thing the Trump administration has done, but it has allowed Valar to build a lot more quickly.
他们和特朗普政府关系非常密切。
They have a lot of close relationships with the Trump administration.
所以，他们确实以一种其他公司做不到的方式把事情推进了。
And so, yeah, they've just managed to get things done in a way that a lot of other companies haven't.
那核能专家对这种做法怎么看？
And what what do nuclear experts think of this approach?
对。
Yeah.
这确实很有争议。
It's definitely controversial.
就是因为速度太快了吗？
Because it's just because it's so fast?
我的意思是，安全才是关键问题吧？
I mean, is safety that's the concern here?
对。
Yeah.
安全是其中一个方面。
Safety is one part of it.
对吧？
Right?
瓦拉尔的主要观点是，因为他们建造的是小型反应堆，政府对他们的监管应该比对大型反应堆宽松一些。
Basically Valar's argument is that because they're building small reactors, the government should have less scrutiny on them than if they're building bigger reactors.
我接触过的一些专家说，人们早就开始建反应堆了，一直都是按部就班地走完流程。
Some experts that I spoke with were like, Well, people have been building reactors for a long time and they've just sucked it up and gone through the process.
这些公司其实就是不想走繁琐的审批程序，但这可能不是好事。
These companies basically just don't want to go through the bureaucratic process and that might be a bad thing.
另外一点让瓦拉尔惹恼专家的是，他们在社交媒体上做了大量宣传。
I mean, the other thing that stands out about Valar and that has been kind of ruffling with feathers of experts is they've made a lot of claims on social media.
他们在社交媒体上特别高调。
They're very loud on social media.
比如去年十一月，他们声称自己是首个达成‘临界’目标的初创公司。
And so, you know, last in November, they claimed that they were the first startup to reach a goal called criticality.
但专家们指出，这其实早就有人做过很多次了。
But then experts were saying, you know, that's actually been done a bunch of times before.
今年早些时候，他们搞了个大动作，用军用C-17运输机把反应堆从加州运到了犹他州。
Then earlier this year, they did this whole big thing where they flew their reactor from California to Utah with these military C-seventeen planes.
他们说这是第一次用这种飞机进行核反应堆的空运。
And they said it was the first time that a nuclear airlift had happened with these planes.
但专家们又指出，其实这种事早就屡见不鲜了。
But then experts again were like, well, actually this happens all the time.
所以他们一直在夸大这些小事，是不是因为根本没做出什么实质性的成果，才不得不靠吹嘘来撑场面？
So what they're saying is if you're exaggerating so many, like, small things that you've done, is that just covering for the fact that you haven't actually done anything?
这有点像‘先装得像那么回事，直到真能做到’。
That's kind of Make
it till you make it.
it till you make it.
这正是外界对Valar的主要批评。
That's the main criticism against Valar.
不过公平地说，这种批评也不只是针对Valar。
And to be fair, it's not just against Valar.
其实不止瓦拉，还有其他一些比较年轻、带着硅谷那种更激进的能源创业风格的新兴核能初创公司也面临类似的质疑。
It's against a number of other nuclear startups that are kind of younger and coming in with this different, like, more aggressive Silicon Valley energy.
说到这个，我刚才在想你在文章里提到的那个时间线。
You know, I I was thinking about the the timeline that you described in the piece.
我记得你提过，他们计划把反应堆在7月4日之前启动，对吧？
I think you mentioned they want to turn their reactor on by the July 4.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
对，没错。
Yeah, that's right.
简单来说，特朗普政府搞了这么个项目，挑了11家公司，都是初创企业，让它们参与进来。
So basically what's happened is the Trump administration created this program, and they selected 11 companies, 11 startups to be part of it.
他们真的扫清了很多建反应堆的障碍，包括监管方面的。有些商用反应堆的监管权从核管会转到了能源部手里。
And they really got rid of a lot of the obstacles that were in the way that made it difficult to build reactors, including regulatory obstacles by putting it the regulation in the hands of the Department of Energy instead of the NRC for some of these commercial reactors.
瓦拉就是这些初创公司之一，它们都在跟时间赛跑，争取在7月4日之前让反应堆运转起来。
And so Valar is one of these startups, and all of them, they're racing against time to turn on a reactor by July 4.
到目前为止，Valar 是三家获得能源部最终批准的公司之一，这意味着他们可以启动反应堆。
So far, Valar is one of just three companies that has gotten the final sign off from the Department of Energy, so they will be allowed to turn on the reactor.
没错，这就是截止日期。
So yeah, that's the deadline.
所以如果他们成功了，接下来会发生什么？
It is So if they succeed with that, I mean, comes after that?
反应堆启动之后，他们有客户在等着吗？
They turn this on, do they actually have customers lined up after that?
这只是一个测试吗？
Is this just a test?
能给我们讲讲后续的规划吗？这家公司到底怎么才能赚钱？
Walk us through sort of the extended roadmap and how this company ultimately gets to generating money.
对。
Right.
所以大家关心的一个大问题是，反应堆启动之后，接下来会发生什么？
So that's a big question around the company is once they turn the reactor on, what happens?
但他们还需要获得核管理委员会的批准，才能建造商用反应堆，这恐怕得花上不少时间。
And they will still need to get approval from the NRC to make a commercial reactor, which is probably gonna take a while.
到目前为止，他们还没公布任何合作消息，而不少竞争对手都已经宣布和Meta这样的科技巨头达成了供电协议，等反应堆启动后就提供电力。
Then they haven't announced you know, a lot of their competitors have announced deals with tech giants like Meta to supply power to them when they do eventually turn their reactors on.
但Valar还没这么做，他们的说法是不能本末倒置。
Valar hasn't, and their argument is that they don't wanna put the cart before the horse.
我刚刚在想，这个比喻到底是怎么说的。
I was just remembering which one the metaphor goes.
他们是想本末倒置。
They're gonna put the cart before the horse.
他们想先把反应堆建起来。
They wanna build their reactor first.
不过，对怀疑者来说，这可能会让人觉得：他们到底有没有一个清晰的计划？
But, you know, to skeptics that could kind of indicate like, well, do they actually have a plan?
我问过他们打算在哪儿建这些反应堆，毕竟他们的目标是大规模生产这种小型反应堆。
You know, I asked them where they plan to build their reactors because the whole goal is to like mass produce these mini reactors.
他们说还没决定，可能在加州，也可能在别的地方。
And they said they haven't decided that yet, maybe in California, maybe elsewhere.
还有另一点，你知道，特朗普政府也不会一直待在位上。
So and then the other point is that, you know, the Trump administration isn't gonna be, you know, there forever.
几年后要是换了新政府，可能不会这么支持改革这些监管标准，说不定又把那些被取消的规定重新加回去。
What happens in a couple years when potentially there's a replace a different administration that may not be as friendly and towards overhauling some of these regulatory standards, maybe they put back in place some of those regulations that the administration stripped.
有个问题想问你，杰米玛。
Question for you, Jemima.
你去过犹他州那次旅行。
You went on this trip to Utah.
你见到了创始人以赛亚·泰勒，也亲眼看了这项技术。
You met Isaiah Taylor, the founder, you saw the technology.
我想请你退一步想想，对整个核能行业有什么更宏观的看法。
I wonder if you just take a step back and think about your broader reflections about the nuclear sector at large.
我们现在正面临人工智能带来的电力短缺问题。
Know we have this power crunch with AI.
我是说，当时站在犹他州，你觉得这会是下一个大趋势吗？
I mean, did this seem like the next big thing to you standing there in Utah?
你觉得它现在看起来还很实验性，
Did it seem very experimental right now, kind
而且是个
of a long
长期的过程吗？
shot?
从个人角度来看，你跟这些人聊完之后，对核能整体有什么最终的结论？
Personally speaking, you talk to all these people, what was your end conclusion about nuclear as a whole?
我觉得答案兼而有之。
I think the answer is both.
整个访问期间，我的想法一直在两种情绪间摇摆：一方面觉得哇，这太令人印象深刻了。
I was oscillating the whole visit between like, Wow, this is really impressive.
才六个月，他们就建起了这座巨大的反应堆。
Six months ago in six months, they built this massive reactor.
我的意思是，它就摆在那里。
Like, it's it's there.
我就亲眼看着它。
I'm looking at it.
这是真的。
It's real.
这个 site 的所有人都告诉我，再过几个月它就能运行了。
And everyone at this site is telling me that this is gonna be working in a few months.
所有专家都说这目标太激进了，但我想我们很快就能看到结果。
All the experts are telling me that's really ambitious, but I guess we'll see very soon.
毕竟亲眼看到它，确实让人印象深刻。
I mean, physically seeing it was impressive.
但另一方面，你身边走着一个和你同龄的 27 岁年轻人。
On the flip side, you can't help, but you're walking around with a 27 year old, the same age as me.
你就会觉得，这个世界真有点疯狂——居然谁都能真的造出任何东西，哪怕是在硬科技最前沿的领域，也能说干就干。
And it's just, it feels like kind of crazy that we live in a world where anyone can really just build anything, even in like this most ambitious corner of hard tech, you can just go out there and build something.
我觉得这正反映出当前科技圈对权力的强烈渴望——只要够有决心，大家就愿意押注任何人。
And I think that really reflects the hungrieness for power and the desire for power that is permeating through tech right now is people are just willing to bet on on anyone as long as you come in there, you know, with determination.
所以也许 Valar 真能做成，真的能成功。
And so maybe Valar will will pull it off and and and it will work.
他们的投资者肯定都会很高兴。
And all their investors will be very happy, I'm sure.
没错。
Right.
Jemima，这个故事讲得太棒了。
Well, Jemima, it was a great story.
我建议大家都去读一读。
I encourage everyone to read it.
这位是《The Information》的周末记者 Jemima McEvoy。
That is Jemima McEvoy, our weekend reporter, here at The Information.
今天的节目就到这里。
That does it for today's show.
提醒一下，我们每周一到周五早上10点（太平洋时间），下午1点（东部时间）直播。
A reminder, we are on this stream Monday through Friday at 10AM Pacific, 1PM Eastern.
如果错过直播，节目内容可以在theinformation.com、我们的YouTube频道，或者你常用的播客平台收听。
If can't you make it then, episodes are available on theinformation.com, on our YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcasts.
别忘了在X、Instagram和TikTok上关注我们。
Make sure to follow us on social media on X, Instagram, and TikTok.
我已经开始期待下周一的节目了。
I am already excited for our next show on Monday.
祝你周五愉快。
Have a great Friday.
祝你周末愉快。
Have a great weekend.
我们很快再见。
I will see you soon.
那先拜拜了。
Bye bye for now.
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