Tesla Eliminates Miami Safety Drivers, Nvidia Teams Up With Rival, SK Hynix to List on NASDAQ

欢迎大家收看《信息时报》TITV。

Welcome everyone to the Information's TITV.

我是阿卡什·帕什里卡。

My name is Akash Pasricha.

今天是7月8日，星期三。

It is Wednesday, July 8.

本期节目，我们将深入报道特斯拉如何调整在迈阿密的机器人出租车发布策略，以加快上线进度。

Today on the show, we have got inside reporting on how Tesla has changed its rollout strategy for Robotaxis in Miami as it tries to expedite launches.

我们还独家披露了英伟达的新增长战略——与快速崛起的芯片初创公司展开合作。

We also have exclusive reporting on Nvidia's new growth strategy, taking a collaborative approach with fast growing chip startups.

接着，我们会分析HubSpot如何撤回一项涉及客户数据的争议性决定。

We'll then unpack HubSpot's reversal of a controversial decision involving customer data.

最后，我们将与瑞银对话，探讨人工智能领域IPO的未来走向。

And finally, we're going to close out the show with a conversation with UBS about what is ahead for the AI IPO pipeline.

节目内容非常精彩，马上开始。

It's going to be a great show, so let's get right on into it.

特斯拉正在快速推进Robotaxi的部署，但在进入新城市的方式上，它正在做出一些调整。

Tesla is quickly expanding its Robotaxi rollout, but it is making some changes on the ground with respect to how it plans to start in new cities.

我们的记者格蕾丝·凯独家报道了这些变化的细节。

Our Elon Musk reporter Grace Kay reported exclusive details on those changes.

我想请她来跟我们分享她了解到的情况。

I want to bring her on to share with us what she knows.

格蕾丝，欢迎再次做客节目。

Grace, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

是的。

Yeah.

Robotaxi上周末在迈阿密上线了，这次的部署方式跟以往不太一样。

So the Robotaxi launched in Miami on Friday, and it's looked kind of different from other launches.

所以你能不能说说，这确实挺有意思的。

So tell me, I mean, it's sort of interesting.

他们之前主要是在德克萨斯州推出，我觉得那才是主战场。

I mean, they have rolled it out before Texas has been the main state, I guess, the rollout.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

他们大约一年前先在奥斯汀上线，之后慢慢扩展到达拉斯和休斯顿。

They initially rolled it out a little over a year ago in Austin, and then they've kind of expanded into Dallas and Houston.

明白了。

Okay.

那迈阿密的推出和德克萨斯那边有什么不一样呢？

And so how is the Miami rollout being different then from the Texas rollouts?

对。

Yeah.

这次迈阿密是他们第一次在没有配备安全监督员的情况下上线，以前在初期阶段，都会有个坐在副驾驶位上监控车辆的人。

So the Miami rollout was the first time they've rolled out in a state without starting out with a safety monitor, which is someone who would sit in the passenger seat and oversee the vehicle during the early release.

而在迈阿密，他们直接就发布了。

And in Miami, they just released it.

车上完全没人，真正做到了全自动驾驶。

There was no one in the car, completely driverless.

在发布之前，我从公司的一些消息源了解到，他们其实提前在城里安排了一个很小的测试司机团队。

They also kind of in the lead up to it, I found from talking to some sources at the company that like there was a smaller test driver team in the city leading up to the launch.

一年前特斯拉在奥斯汀发布时，前期有三百多名司机参与测试。

So a year ago when Tesla launched in Austin, they had more than 300 drivers in the weeks leading up.

他们从全国各地调来人手，专门测试这个区域的Robotaxi表现，但在迈阿密，这个团队规模小得多，这其实是个挺有意思的进展，也说明他们的Robotaxi项目在不断进化。

They brought in people from all across the country that they were working with to test out the area, for the Robotaxi, But that was much smaller in Miami, which which was an interesting development and kind of like an evolution of the, you know, of their work with the Robotaxi.

那这些司机组成的车队，具体是做什么的呢？

And so the these the the fleet of of drivers, I guess, what exactly was the role for these drivers?

每次在新城市上线时，他们的任务到底是什么？

When they launched in a new city, they were meant to what?

是坐在车里监督Robotaxi的运行吗？

Supervise the Robotaxis from inside?

只是为了安全起见才在那儿吗？

Was it meant to just be there as a safety precaution?

这些人最初的作用到底是什么？

What was the role of these people initially?

他们有双重职责。

They have a dual role.

在正式上线前，会有测试司机去这些城市，测试软件在各种场景下的表现。

Before it launches, they have test drivers who go to these cities and they test out the software in different scenarios.

遇到施工区域，或者城市里某条路上那个特别难拐的弯，系统会怎么反应？

How does it react to construction zones or maybe this really difficult turn on this one street in the city?

他们主要就是做这些测试工作。

They they do a lot of that work.

在奥斯汀刚上线时，车上有人坐在副驾驶位，很多人手还放在车门按钮上，不过那个按钮已经被重新设计成了紧急制动按钮。

And then after they launch initially in Austin, they had people sitting in the passenger seat and a lot of them had their hand on this button on the door that opens the door, but they had reverse they had reengineered that button so that it was an emergency stop button for the vehicle.

所以他们在奥斯汀刚推出时，纯粹是作为额外的安全保障。

So they were just kind of an extra safety measure when they first launched in Austin.

到了迈阿密，他们就直接上线了，连之前那种安全措施都没用，测试也比以前少了不少。

And when they launched in Miami, they launched without that and with a little bit less testing leading up to the launch.

明白了。

Okay.

咱们说说这事儿多有意思啊

Can we just talk about how funny it is

让司机的按钮装在车门上

to have for a driver to have

车门上的按钮？

their button on the door?

是啊。

Yeah.

说真的，这设计听着就像紧急出口一样，真有点搞笑，简直就是‘快让我出去’的紧急按钮。

I mean, it's it's it sounds like a it's like an emergency, like, exit, know, in some cases, which is kind It's of a funny like, Get me out of here now, pronto.

不过，这么说来，他们确实减少了参与测试和 rollout 的人手。

But okay, so they've cut the number of people then that are doing these testing rollouts.

这个决定背后的原因是什么？

What's the reason here for this decision?

对啊。

Yeah.

我觉得可能是因为

I I think it's just kind

我们正在观察特斯拉在推送机器人出租车时，其流程是如何逐步调整的。

of we're seeing how Tesla's process for deploying the Robotaxi is evolving over time.

显然，奥斯汀是他们最先上线的地方，所以策略可能在那里有些变化。

Obviously, Austin was the first place that they rolled out, so maybe the strategy has changed a little bit there.

这也反映了马斯克对机器人出租车的整体想法。

It's also kind of reflective of Elon Musk's kind of view for the Robotaxi.

他曾表示，他希望软件能在不逐一测试每个地区的情况下直接部署。

He has said that he wants the software to be able to deploy without having to test everywhere it goes.

所以他希望摄像头和AI系统能第一次上路就识别出从未驶过的道路。

So he wants the cameras and the AI system to be able to figure out roads that it's never driven before, you know, on the first go.

而且你知道，他们在迈阿密推出前确实有测试司机，但减少司机数量可能也是朝这个方向迈的一步。

And, you know, obviously, they did have test drivers in Miami in the lead up, but, like, maybe having less is kind of another step towards that.

我们知不知道，由于他们这次采取了更简化的发布方式， rollout 过程中有没有出过问题？

Do we know if there have been any issues with the rollout given that they have taken a more streamlined approach to this launch?

我觉得现在还不好说，毕竟才刚启动几天。

I think it's too early to tell because we're only a few days into this.

再过几周或者几个月，我们就能看得更清楚了。

I think we'll know more in a few weeks or a few months.

另外要注意的是，迈阿密这边的运营范围其实很小。

It's also important to note that it's like a very small area in Miami.

大概只有十到十四英里左右。

It's about 10 to 14 miles.

这比Waymo当初在城里启动时的范围小多了，而Waymo现在已经扩展到一百多英里了。

So much smaller actually than when Waymo launched in the city, and Waymo has since expanded to over a 100 miles.

所以，在这么小的一个地理围栏里控制自动驾驶出租车，确实要容易一些。

So, you know, it's a little bit easier to control a robotaxi in a small geofence like that.

你以前坐过Waymo的自动驾驶汽车，也坐过其他公司的无人出租车吗？

Have you sat in both a Waymo and in any of the robotaxis at all before?

坐过。

Yeah.

我坐过Waymo，大概是在凤凰城；另外特斯拉在加州也有个叫乘车服务的项目，跟他们的无人出租车不太一样，我也体验过。

I've ridden in Waymos, I think in Phoenix, then also Tesla has a ride hailing service in California, which is kind of separate from its Robotaxi service, and I've ridden in that as well.

除了你个人的体验，其他乘客对这两家公司产品的表现有什么评价？差别大吗？

And what are the initial reviews, not just from you but from other customers, on how the product performance differs between the two companies?

抛开加州那些无人出租车还得有司机坐在驾驶位这个限制不谈，它们的表现跟Waymo比起来怎么样？

I mean, put aside the fact that you need a driver in the car with you in California for those Robotaxis that are autonomous, or do they live up to the Waymo reviews so far?

是的。

Yeah.

到目前为止，评价都还不错。

I think so far the reviews have been good.

大家对特斯拉服务的主要抱怨是等车时间太长，尤其是在加州，因为必须有司机坐在驾驶位上。

I think the main complaint people have had with Tesla service is some pretty long wait times, especially in California where they have to have someone behind the driver's wheel.

这部分是因为运营成本很高，他们管那些坐在加州车前排的人叫AI操作员，但实际上得雇人来做这份工作。

Part of that is just like, there's this huge operational effort to have these they call them AI operators, but like the people who sit in the front seat in California, they have to hire those people.

目前加州已经有将近两千人注册了这项工作，但等车时间还是挺长的。

They currently have almost 2,000 people registered in California for that and they're still having relatively long wait times.

格蕾丝，如果你要继续深入这个报道，你觉得哪些问题最值得追问？

Grace, as you think about the reporting questions that you would like to pursue in this story going forward, what are the big ones that come to mind?

是的。

Yeah.

我特别关心他们接下来怎么扩大规模。

I mean, obviously, I'm very interested in how they continue to scale.

我也想知道他们能在多快的时间内把服务推广到其他城市。

I'm interested in how quickly they're going to be able to deploy in other cities.

还有一个角色我觉得特别有意思。

And there's also this role that I think is very interesting.

等他们完全无人驾驶之后，会有一批远程操作员充当安全后备。

You know, as they go driverless, they have these remote operators who are kind of like the safety line.

所以，尽管车上没人，他们还是安排了工作人员，可以在这些情况下远程接管车辆。

So even though there's no one in the vehicle, they have workers, you know, who are who can remotely take over the vehicle in these scenarios.

我觉得值得观察的是，这种方式会如何发挥作用，以及特斯拉和Waymo截然不同的策略会如何发展。

And I think it'll be interesting how that comes into play and also to see how Tesla's strategy, which is so different from Waymo, plays out.

Waymo用的是摄像头、激光雷达和雷达，而且在进入新城市之前，会做非常详细的地图测绘。

So Waymo has, you know, cameras, LIDAR, and radar, and and they do very extensive mapping before they launch in cities.

而埃隆·马斯克为特斯拉制定的策略只依赖摄像头，靠AI系统从摄像头数据中学习，他们希望尽量减少地图测绘的工作量。

And Elon Musk, you know, for Tesla has been focused its cameras only, and, know, it's this AI system training on the cameras, and, you know, they wanna do substantially less mapping.

所以很值得看看这两种策略最终谁能胜出。

So it'll be interesting to see, like, how those two strategies play out and which one wins in the end.

很好。

Great.

Grace，非常感谢你今天来做客。

Well, Grace, I wanna thank you for coming on.

这位是Grace Kay，我们《The Information》负责报道埃隆·马斯克的记者。

That is Grace Kay, our Elon Musk reporter here at The Information.

英伟达推出了一项新的增长策略，打算与快速发展的芯片初创公司合作。

Nvidia has a new growth strategy that involves partnering with fast growing chip startups.

这一消息来自《The Information》的独家报道。

That is according to exclusive reporting from The Information.

我来请我的同事、《The Information》的英伟达特派记者刘菲比，给大家详细说说她了解到的情况。

I want to bring on my colleague Phoebe Liu, our Nvidia correspondent, to walk us through what she knows.

菲比，欢迎再次做客节目。

Phoebe, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你今天能来。

It's great to have you here.

能来也很开心。

Great to be here.

说说看，英伟达现在推行的这个新增长策略具体是怎么回事？

Tell me about this new growth strategy that Nvidia is pursuing.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我觉得过去几年里，大家对英伟达市场地位的讨论，没错，

So basically, I think a lot of the narrative around Nvidia's market positioning, Yes.

主要集中在他们如何想方设法打压竞争对手，用各种强硬手段维持主导地位。

Over the past few years and how they've been able to really dominate the market for chips that train and run AI has been around how they want to kill competition and kind of talking about aggressive tactics to stay dominant.

但几年前，

A few years ago, at

至少

least

从英伟达的角度来看，他们对那些小型芯片初创公司的态度已经发生了变化。

in Nvidia's perspective, their attitude towards, specifically smaller chip startups has shifted.

我觉得这种转变是从2019年英伟达收购网络公司Mellanox开始的，后来又推出了Blackwell架构，不再只是卖GPU了。

I think starting with Nvidia's acquisition of networking company Mellanox in 2019 and then Nvidia's Blackwell architecture that expanded beyond just selling GPUs.

英伟达现在明显在传递一个信号：他们不只是芯片公司，而是一个平台型企业。

Nvidia has started to basically signal that they're a platform company and not just a chip company.

我昨天采访了英伟达的高级总监迪翁·哈里斯，他就明确说了这一点。

And I talked to Nvidia senior director Dion Harris for this, and he basically said just that in an interview yesterday.

他说，你不该把英伟达当成一家芯片公司。

He was like, you shouldn't think of Nvidia as a chip company.

我们卖的东西远不止芯片。

Like, we sell so much more than that.

这种转变恰好赶上了其他公司推出专用AI芯片的浪潮，其中包括英伟达的两大客户——谷歌和亚马逊。

And that shift has kind of coincided with a rise in specialized AI chips made by other companies, including two of Nvidia's biggest customers, Google and Amazon.

简单来说，这个策略和我的报道想表达的是：英伟达似乎正在接受一个未来——AI领域会有多种芯片并存，而不仅仅是英伟达的GPU，尽管根据我几周前做的数据，他们目前依然占据主导地位，而且市场份额还在增长。

And I guess the TLDR of this strategy and my story is that Nvidia appears to be accepting a future where there are lots of different types of chips in play in AI, not just Nvidia GPUs, even though they're still dominant and increasing market share right now, according to some estimates I did a few weeks ago.

而且，英伟达首席执行官黄仁勋最近一直在大力推广公司的其他产品，比如网络设备之类的。

And, basically, Nvidia CEO, Jensen Huang, has increasingly drummed up Nvidia's other offerings, so, like, networking and things like that.

我觉得今年早些时候的一次财报电话会上，他就说英伟达是全球最大的网络公司。

I think on one earnings call earlier this year, he called Nvidia the biggest networking company in the world.

这当然主要是针对AI领域说的，但这也反映出他的思维方式。

Presumably, that's just for AI, but that gives us a sense of kind of how he's thinking.

如果未来出现多种芯片，而且越来越多的人讨论如何把同一个AI任务拆分到不同芯片上运行以提升效率，这些任务大概率还是得靠GPU来处理，毕竟在高计算强度的AI任务上，GPU依然是最出色的。

And I guess if there are different chips and increasingly people are talking about the possibility of disaggregating or running the same AI query across different types of chips for maximum efficiency, those chips would still likely run across a GPU because those are still the best for very compute intensive AI uses.

当然，英伟达也希望那会是自家的芯片。

And Nvidia would, of course, love for that to be an Nvidia chip.

所以这就是背景情况。

So that's kind of the background.

对。

Right.

所以，说到底，报道里最有趣的地方是，他们其实已经和一些公司展开了合作，这些公司虽然不算小，但比如Dematrix。

And and so so and so the I mean, the the gist of the the the reporting, the most interesting part is they've actually pursued partnerships then with really, not really small companies, they're not tiny companies, but Dematrix.

这家公司之前一直被关注，一度可能被归为‘英伟达杀手’一类的竞争对手。

I mean, this is the company that covered the information for a while, a company that probably fell into the bucket of the Nvidia killers maybe at one point, you know, the rivals.

是的。

Yeah.

现在他们却和Dematrix合作了。

So they're partnering with Dematrix now.

这背后是啥情况？

What's going on there?

是的。

Yeah.

说个有趣的事。

So funny story.

我听几个朋友说，Nvidia 其实是先主动联系了 Dematrix 的，尽管 Dematrix 是一家 2019 年成立的芯片初创公司。

I think according to a couple of people I was talking to, Nvidia actually reached out to d matrix first even though so d matrix is a chip startup founded in 2019.

我记得他们上一轮融资时估值是 20 亿美元，这已经不小了，但跟 Nvidia 一比就差远了，毕竟 Nvidia 是全球市值最高的公司。

I think they last raised at a $2,000,000,000 valuation in November, which is big, but nothing compared to Nvidia, which is the biggest company in the world.

现在 TMatrix 又在新一轮融资中。

Given the their TMatrix is raising again right now.

不过他们的规模和营收已经相当可观了。

But they're essentially pretty significant scale or revenue.

我听说 TMatrix 的 CEO 西德·杰夫提到，他们目前的收入还是个位数，主要客户都还处在概念验证阶段。

I think TMatrix's CEO, Sid Jeff, said they're about single digit revenue right now, and it's mostly kind of proof of concept customers.

而这次和 Nvidia 的合作，帮他们拉来了真正的客户——Parasail，一家 AI 云服务初创公司，专门面向其他初创企业，提供 AI 应用服务，而不是训练模型。

This partnership with Nvidia kind of takes that into a real customer, which is Parasail, an AI cloud startup that aims to serve just using AI, not training it, for kind of other startup customers.

在这个合作中，D Matrix的芯片托盘可以连接到Nvidia的GPU上。

And, basically, in the in this partnership, a d matrix chip tray can be hooked up to an Nvidia GPU.

也就是从Hopper系列，还有即将推出的Blackwell系列开始。

So in this case, from the hopper and soon Blackwell generations.

而且

And

其实挺简单的。

And it's it's pretty it's pretty simple.

对吧？

Right?

说白了，就一根网线而已。

I mean, it's it's just an ethernet cable.

集成起来也不难，但这个商业模式是怎么运作的呢？

It's not that hard of an integration to How does the business model work though?

如果他们联合销售这种产品，那每卖出一套，两家公司都能分到收入吗？

So if they're selling this jointly, then do they both generate revenue on a sale of this kind of joint product?

我的理解就是这样，没错。

That's my understanding, yes.

所以我认为，他们俩都会获得硬件销售收入，然后帕拉塞尔会把这部分算力租给客户，从中收取租金。

So I think, yeah, so they would both generate hardware revenue, and then Paracel will then rent that capacity out to its customers and then get basically rental revenue from that.

但有意思的是，这正是帕拉塞尔模式能行得通的原因。

But the interesting thing is this is why it works with Paracel's model.

他们不是按每小时多少GPU或D矩阵芯片的费用来收费，而是按每秒处理的令牌数计费。

They sell based on kind of tokens per second instead of, like, GPU or d matrix CORSAIR chip dollars per hour.

所以具体用什么硬件跑任务，其实并不重要。

So it doesn't really matter what hardware the workload is running on.

客户只管按令牌付费，这就是他们的商业模式。

Customers are just paying by token, so that's kind of how the business model works.

我想问一下，芯片公司之间这样合作，常见吗？

Tell me, is this common for chip companies to partner with other chip companies?

按我的理解，可能我之前没太留意，客户通常会搭配使用不同芯片，毕竟你得有GPU、CPU，还得有内存，各种芯片都得配齐。

The way I understood it, and maybe I haven't paid enough attention to it, customers will take different chips, because you've got GPUs, CPUs, you need memory, you need all these different chips.

客户自己会负责把这些组件整合起来。

Customers will be the ones to integrate all these components on their end.

不过我觉得，公司之间联合推出产品的情况还挺少见的。

It seems to me that it's rare though for companies to go to market together with joint products.

我这么想对吗？

Am I off base on that?

完全不是。

No, not at all.

我觉得，这种将AI计算拆解开来的方式，现在才真正开始兴起。

I think this is a new phase of this disaggregation of running AI that's really starting to uptick now.

目前还没人真正大规模这么做。

No one's really doing it at scale yet.

我觉得，英伟达通过那项授权交易，或者说半收购的模式，率先推动了这一趋势。

I think Nvidia really set this off with the licensing deal slash quasi acquisition.

没错。

That's correct.

是的。

Yes.

你们确实做到了。

You have.

是在去年十二月。

In December.

不过这个商业模式有点不同，因为英伟达在里面涉及了资金层面。

Although that business model is a little different because there's a financial component from Nvidia.

但我认为这向市场证明了，当英伟达的GPU与某些专用设备配合使用——尤其是专门用于超快AI推理的设备时，这种合作模式是有可能成功的。

But I think that kind of proved to the market that these types of partnerships where you have an Nvidia GPU running alongside something else that's specialized, usually specifically for very fast AI inference that that could potentially work.

还有其他几例。

There are a couple others.

英伟达还和孙德诺瓦合作，这个合作还牵涉到英特尔，我记得我们几周前报道过。

Nvidia is also working alongside, Sunbindova in a partnership that also involves Intel, which I think, we reported on a few weeks ago.

另外，亚马逊的Tranium芯片和Cerebras的芯片之间也有合作。

And there's also a partnership between Amazon's Tranium chips and Cerebras' chips.

这些都还处于概念验证阶段，目前还没人真正大规模投入使用。

All of these are still kind of in the proof of concept testing stage, so I don't think anyone's really using it at scale yet.

我问你个问题，菲比。

Let me ask you a question, Phoebe, here.

你觉得这种合作对芯片创新整体是好事，还是只是让大公司变得更强大了？

Do you think that this type of deal is good for chip innovation, broadly speaking, or does it just mean that the big are getting bigger?

是的。

Yeah.

当然，这纯粹是我个人的看法。

So I guess, obviously, just my opinion here.

我觉得大公司太强了，小芯片公司如果没有大公司的支持，很难突围。

I think because the bigs are so big, it's hard for the small chips to kind of break through without support for the bigs.

所以我认为，这种合作模式能帮助初创公司获得更多市场关注。

So I think this is kind of a helpful type of partnership to help startups actually get more market exposure.

至少在我理想的情况下，我感觉我的一些消息源用过‘竞合’这个词。

At least in my ideal world, I feel like more I I think a few sources of mine have used the phrase coopetition.

他们基本上是说，这有助于刺激市场，因为制造芯片成本太高，还牵涉到无数供应链环节。

And they're basically saying that that helps stimulate the market because making a chip is so expensive and relies so many kind of supply chain strings to be pulled.

有个实力雄厚的伙伴站在你这边，确实很有帮助。

It's definitely helpful to have someone with kind of a lot of punching power in your corner.

很好。

Great.

Phoebe，非常感谢你今天来做客。

Well, Phoebe, I wanna thank you for coming on.

这位是Phoebe Liu，我们《The Information》的英伟达记者。

That is Phoebe Liu, our Nvidia reporter here at The Information.

HubSpot推翻了之前一项有争议的决定，关于他们打算如何用客户数据来开发自己的AI工具。

HubSpot reversed course on a controversial decision on how it plans to use customer data for its own AI tools.

我的同事、企业软件记者Kevin McLaughlin，带来了这个消息的最新进展。

My colleague, Kevin McLaughlin, our enterprise software reporter, has the latest on that story.

我请他来跟大家分享一下他了解到的情况。

I want to bring him on to share with us what he knows.

凯文，欢迎再次做客节目。

Kevin, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你今天能来。

It's great to have you here.

谢谢，阿卡什。

Thanks, Akash.

好的。

Okay.

那你能说说HubSpot这次的风波吗？

So tell me about this debacle at HubSpot.

到底发生了什么？

What's going on?

是的。

Yeah.

这件事其实没引起太多注意，但在7月1日，HubSpot给客户发了一封邮件，大意是他们打算利用客户存在CRM系统里的部分数据，来推动一项新的人工智能功能，帮助客户更轻松地寻找销售线索。

So this sort of flew under the radar a little bit, but on July 1, HubSpot sent customers an email basically saying that it planned to use some of the data that they store in their CRM records to power a new AI feature that would make it easier for them to find sales leads.

让客户感到震惊的是，CRM数据对他们来说非常私密，收集、核实和整理这些数据花了大量精力。

What made this sort of seismic for customers was that CRM data is very proprietary to them, and it takes a lot of work to find it and verify it and clean it up.

所以客户对此非常不满。

And so that didn't sit well with customers.

四天后，他们就改变了决定。

And four days later, reversed course.

他们当时想训练的到底是什么工具？

What exactly is the the tool that they were trying to train?

是那种能利用客户数据的智能功能吗？具体是怎么回事？

It was like an intelligence feature that that took advantage of the customer data here, or what was it?

是的。

Yeah.

简单说一下背景，过去几年里，HubSpot一直有基于人工智能的功能，能自动更新客户信息。

So just for some context, for the last couple of years, HubSpot has had AI powered features that automatically update customer records.

比如客户换了公司或者职位变动，系统就会自动更新他们的头衔、邮箱这些信息。

Like, if their customer changes companies or, you know, changes roles, it would update their titles and emails and things like that.

所以客户对这一点是接受的，因为HubSpot告诉他们，这些功能所用的数据来自公开渠道、第三方供应商和互联网上的资源。

And so customers were fine with that because HubSpot told them that it gathered the data to power these features from public sources, third party vendors, sources on the Internet.

因此，这并不构成对客户的威胁。

And so it wasn't a case where it was a threat to customers.

真正引发争议的是，正如我之前提到的，这次他们明确表示：我们会使用你们CRM中的一些数据。

What changed and what sort of fueled the controversy here was that, as I as I mentioned, this time around, basically said, well, we're gonna be using some of the details of your CRM data.

HubSpot确实说明，这只涉及商业联系人信息，比如公司名称、职位这类内容。

Now HubSpot did say that this was only business contact, business card type info, like company names and roles and stuff like that.

但客户根本不在乎这些细节，因为正如我之前说的，他们对这类数据保护得非常严密。

But it didn't matter to customers because, as I mentioned before, they're very protective of this data.

没错。

Right.

而且这些数据，就像你在这段故事里描述的，很多时候其实是客户多年积累的笔记，甚至是一些公司最核心的机密——关于他们所有客户的信息，对吧？

And the data, I mean, you outlined it in the story, but this data here, I mean, these can be years of notes in some cases on customers and some of the secret sauce, I guess, that companies hold, right, with respect to all their customer information?

我觉得问题不在于HubSpot用了什么样的数据，而在于他们明确说：我们会用这些信息，而且可能会和其他客户共享。

I think it was more than the actual nature of the data that was being used by HubSpot was HubSpot actually said that we're going to basically use this information and we may share it with other customers.

如果你花了五年时间精心维护你的客户关系管理系统，让它变得完美又顺手，那你怎么会愿意让竞争对手通过HubSpot——这个对所有人开放的产品——接触到你的数据呢？

So if you're a customer and you spent five years sort of pruning your CRM data to the point where, you know, it's really it's perfect and it's working for you, why would you want to then have your competitor have access to that data through HubSpot's product, which is of course available to everyone.

明白了。

Got it.

所以在我看来，真正的问题其实不在于训练模型这一步，那只是第一层担忧。

So it sounds to me that it wasn't the training part actually was just sort of level one of the concern.

真正的关键在于数据可能会被共享出去。

It was the potential sharing that was the real concern here.

是的。

Yeah.

这次的情况有点不一样。

This is a little different.

过去像Slack和Zoom这样的公司也曾遇到过类似情况，当时网络上的观察者仔细研究了它们的条款，发现它们实际上保留了训练AI模型的权利，或者至少看起来是这样，于是这些公司不得不更新并澄清自己的隐私政策。

We've seen cases in the past with companies like Slack and Zoom where they had to update their and clarify their privacy policies because sort of internet sleuths looked at their terms and said, oh, wait a minute.

它们表面上看是保留了使用数据训练AI模型的权利，至少表面上是这么写的。

They're actually reserving the right to to train AI models, or at least it appeared that way.

HubSpot 做的这件事有点不一样。

What HubSpot is doing is sort of different.

他们确实修改了服务条款、隐私政策和其他客户协议。

They actually did change their terms of service, their privacy policies, and other customer agreements.

这是一次全面的调整，但 HubSpot 的想法是：各位客户，

This was a comprehensive across the board change, But HubSpot's view was like, hey, customers.

我们其实是想让你们更容易找到销售线索。

We're actually, like, gonna make it easier for you to find sales leads.

我觉得 HubSpot 对大家的反应估计错了。

So I think HubSpot sort of misjudged, I think, what the reaction would be.

就像他们在声明里说的，HubSpot 是想帮你们，客户们。

And I think that, as they said in their communications, HubSpot, we're trying to help you, customers.

但这次，客户们并不需要这种帮助。

But customers didn't want to be helped in this case.

从更广的角度来看，你认为这件事说明了客户数据之争的什么问题？

Talk to me about what you think this tells us about the customer data war story, broadly speaking.

每隔几个月，就会出现一次这样的爆发，某家企业软件公司搞个新动作，结果遭到用户抵制，有时严重，有时轻点。

It seems like we have these flare ups, I guess, every couple months where an enterprise software company tries something, it gets some pushback, in some cases bigger than others.

这次的情况感觉比以往更进一步了，无论是公司退让的力度，还是用户反弹的规模，都前所未有。

You know, was this sort of feels like this was actually a step further than we'd seen in terms of what a reversal could look like, in terms of what a customer pushback could look like.

你怎么看这件事？

What do you make of it?

确实如此。

Yeah.

公司刚上线新改动才四天，就这么果断地撤回，这种情况实在少见。

It's it's pretty rare to see a company backtrack so forcefully just four days after implementing a new change.

这是一点。

That's one thing.

不过我们也见过不少类似案例。

I will say that, you know, we've seen many examples.

大家都知道，客户对厂商如何使用自己的数据非常敏感，这一点其实并不新鲜。

We know that many customers do not are very sensitive about the way that vendors use their data, and so that's nothing new.

这种情况确实也包含这方面的因素。

And this is definitely there's an element of that to this situation.

我觉得从另一个角度看，HubSpot 是受 SaaSpocalypse 影响最严重的公司之一。

I I think on another level, HubSpot is, you know, one of the hardest hit companies by the SaaSpocalypse.

其中一个原因在于，他们主要向中小型企业销售客户关系管理软件。

And one reason for that is they sell CRM software to small and medium businesses.

一般来说，客户关系管理系统很难切换，尤其是大公司，但对小公司来说，换系统要容易得多。

One of the things about CRM generally is that it's very hard to switch, especially for larger companies, but for smaller companies, it's much easier to switch.

所以 HubSpot 在这方面构成了威胁。

And so HubSpot is a threat on that front.

再加上过去十八个月左右股价下跌了百分之七十五，我觉得他们压力很大，必须证明自己能用 AI 推出新功能，让客户感到惊喜，愿意继续购买更多服务。

And I think that, you know, given the stock decline, 75% decline over the last eighteen months or so, I think they are under pressure to show that they're able to leverage AI to create new features that will bring joy and delight to customers and make them want to buy more.

所以我觉得这背后有多重原因，但毫无疑问，这个决定背后压力巨大。

And so I think that there's multiple dimensions, but definitely a lot of pressure involved in this decision, I think.

明白了。

Okay.

那你觉得这家公司未来的前景如何？

And what do you think the future prospects hold for the company?

你觉得它最后会被其他CRM公司吞并吗？

Do you think it ultimately just gets gobbled up by another CRM company?

我觉得它可能会收购一些AI公司，但反过来，也说不定是哪家AI公司直接收购了HubSpot，你觉得呢？

Do you think maybe it I could certainly see it trying to acquire AI companies, but besides that big a company, you could see an AI company acquire HubSpot too, right?

是的。

Yeah.

说不准。

Don't know.

我就是随便想想。

I'm just brainstorming.

CRM领域现在有几大巨头，同时AI公司也在推自己的产品。

CRM, You've it's like got giants, you've got the AI companies touting their own products.

你觉得这个行业的未来会怎样？

What do you think the future of this business is?

毫无疑问，现在HubSpot正面临巨大压力，股价下跌就是明证。

Well, there's no question that HubSpot is under pressure and under fire right now, the stock decline and this situation.

我们采访了几个客户，他们说早就想换掉HubSpot了，主要是因为价格太高，而且公司老是把功能锁在高级版本里，逼着客户升级。

We spoke with a couple of customers who said, We were already looking to get off HubSpot just because of the costs and the company's practice of sort of gating off features and requiring customers to buy higher level versions of the software to get these features.

所以，这家公司确实挺艰难的。

And so, you know, the company is definitely struggling.

我觉得，如果他们能推出一个爆款AI功能，或许能扭转投资者的看法。

I think that at some level, like if they are able to develop a hit AI feature, you know, that could maybe change the perception of investors.

但我也不排除他们有能力扭转局面。

I wouldn't rule out their ability to actually reverse the tide.

不过话说回来，这次的情况确实不妙。

Having said all that, this was not good.

真的非常不妙。

This was really not good.

我觉得，这家公司的负面影响还会持续下去。

I think that the company, the fallout is going to continue.

建立客户的信任很难，但失去它却很容易。

Just trust is so hard to build with customers, and it's so easy to lose it.

这真是再贴切不过的例子了。

I think this is a perfect example of that.

很好。

Great.

凯文，非常感谢你今天来做客。

Well, Kevin, I want to thank you for coming on.

这位是凯文·麦克劳林，我们《信息》杂志的企业软件记者。

That is Kevin McLaughlin, our enterprise software reporter here at The Information.

接下来的环节，我们邀请到合作伙伴瑞银。

Our next segment is with our partner, UBS.

眼下科技公司IPO正忙得不可开交，SK海力士的上市就在眼前。

It is a busy time for tech IPOs with SK Hynix upon us.

当然，大家最关心的是，投资者会怎么看待即将到来的OpenAI和Anthropic的上市。

Of course, the big question is how investors will view the OpenAI and Anthropic IPOs that are expected to be coming down the pipe in the coming months.

为了梳理一下科技公司IPO的现状，我请来了瑞银的格雷戈尔·费格，他是美洲股权资本市场联席主管，同时也是全球TMT股权资本市场主管。

To unpack the IPO landscape, I wanna bring on Gregor Feige, co head of ECM Americas and head of global TMT ECM at UBS.

格雷戈尔，欢迎来到节目。

Gregor, welcome to the show.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you here.

能和你对话真好，阿卡什。

Good good to be on with you, Akash.

谢谢邀请。

Appreciate it.

最近科技公司IPO这边可真是忙个不停。

So we've got a bit of a busy stint here for tech IPOs.

这周就要迎来SK海力士的上市。

We've got SK Hynix coming up this week.

上周有Lime和Bending Spoons，上个月还有SpaceX，那场上市瑞银也参与了。

We had Lime and Bending Spoons last week, and then of course SpaceX was last month, which UBS was involved in.

我今天看到了。

I saw it today.

股价现在已跌破SpaceX上市时的价格了。

I mean, shares are now trending down below the SpaceX IPO price.

所以我只是想听听你的看法。

And so I just wanted to take your temperature a bit here.

综合这些情况，你觉得现在对科技公司来说，上市是个好时机吗？

I mean, taking all this into consideration, is it an opportune to go public right now for tech companies?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我觉得现在正是认真考虑上市流程的好时机。

Think it's a great time to be thinking about an IPO process.

当前市场上资本的积累和形成，简直令人惊叹。

The capital accumulation and formation that's going on in the markets right now is nothing short of phenomenal.

市场确实存在一些波动。

You do have, you know, volatility in the markets.

你现在看到，像内存领域的股票、SpaceX，或者更广泛的科技股，都在大幅波动。

You're seeing, you know, these stocks in the memory space or SpaceX or in technology more broadly moving around in meaningful ways.

但如果你看看它们当前的交易水平，跟十二个月、二十四个月、三十六个月前相比，现在绝对是考虑上市的好时机，很多公司都在积极推动这件事。

But you look at the levels that they're trading at relative to where they were twelve, twenty four, thirty six months ago, it's a phenomenal time to be considering going public, and we're seeing a lot of companies drive that forward.

尽管SpaceX现在的股价已经低于IPO时的价格。

Even though SpaceX is now below the IPO price.

说得一点没错。

That that's exactly right.

我觉得，随着科技和整个行业的变革，市场出现波动是预料之中的，资本市场也不例外。

You know, I think there's an expectation that you're gonna have volatility as you look at transformation in technology and the sector more broadly, but in the capital markets as well.

这些情况迟早会陆续出现。

You're gonna see some of those things happen.

至于SpaceX的IPO，我觉得它非常成功。

But the SpaceX IPO, you know, I think was a a success.

现在股价低于发行价，这只是成为上市公司后必经的起伏，但它的IPO本身绝对是极其成功的。

Having it below issue right now is part of the trials and tribulations of being a public company, but a phenomenally successful IPO.

他们之后在债务市场进行的融资，恰恰说明了企业上市的目的——为了能持续、稳定地获得资金支持。

Subsequent capital raise they did in the debt markets is a reflection of why companies go public to have access to capital on a frequent and regular basis.

那我们来聊聊这次IPO的规模，还有像OpenAI和Anthropic这些公司即将进行的IPO，虽然规模未必相同，但也绝对是重磅级的。

So let's talk about then the size of that IPO and the size of what many expect to be, maybe not similar sizes, but big IPOs nonetheless, OpenAI and Anthropic, they're coming down the pipe.

我们在这档节目里多次讨论过，市场能否消化这三场大型IPO。

We talked a lot on the show about the capacity for the market to absorb these three big IPOs.

你觉得从SpaceX的案例里，我们能得出什么答案？对于OpenAI和Anthropic，你又预期会看到什么？

What do you think we learned about the answer to that question from SpaceX, and what are you expecting to see from OpenAI Anthropic?

我觉得我们学到的是，全球范围内存在着惊人的资本存量，无论是主权财富基金、家族办公室、超高净值个人，还是传统的机构投资者，都在积极入场。

Well, I think what we've learned is that there is an unbelievable profusion of capital that's out there on a global basis, whether that's sovereign wealth funds, whether that's family offices, wealth, ultra high net worth, but then then traditional institutional investors leaning in across the board.

OpenAI刚刚完成了史上最大规模的私募融资，高达1200亿美元；SpaceX的IPO也达到了860亿美元，此外甲骨文、谷歌母公司Alphabet也都完成了巨额融资。

You have the largest private capital raise in history with a $120,000,000,000 for OpenAI and then an $86,000,000,000 IPO for SpaceX as well as significant capital raises for the likes of Oracle and Alphabet that have all taken place.

这清楚地表明，巨额资金正在全力押注人工智能基础设施的建设。

It shows that there's enormous dollars going behind the AI infrastructure build out that's going on.

正如你提到的，SK海力士，正是这波浪潮中的下一个参与者。

And SK Hynix, as you referenced, is the the next part of that wave.

我们预计接下来会有多场规模巨大的IPO。

We anticipate there to be a a number of significantly sized IPOs.

你提到了Anthropic和OpenAI，但未来几个月和几个季度里，还会出现其他规模庞大的融资项目。

You mentioned two of them with Anthropic and OpenAI, but others that will come and be very large capital raises in the months and quarters to come.

刚才你提到超高净值个人、家族办公室和主权财富基金。

Now, talked about ultra high net worth individuals, family offices, sovereign wealth funds.

我的意思是，这些资金池过去通常会参与IPO吗？还是说这是新出现的现象？

I mean, are these pools of capital, have they traditionally participated in IPOs historically, or is this a newer group?

这是比较新的现象，但已经参与IPO市场有一段时间了。

It's newer and has been a part of the overall IPO process for a period of time.

不过我认为，你所看到的这些资本在整体资本市场中的重要性——无论是常规股票交易，还是IPO和私募融资——这些不同渠道的资金体量都相当可观。

But I think the importance and the criticality of that that you're seeing in the capital markets overall, so on regular way equity trading, as well as the IPOs and private capital raises, the quantum of capital that exists in those different pockets is substantial.

随着未来这些大型IPO和私募融资的推进，它们的重要性还会持续上升。

And it's gonna be more and more important as you think about these large IPOs, private capital raises going forward.

我不会说完全没被利用过，但过去远没有像将来这样被充分调动起来。

It's, I won't say completely untapped, but it has not been tapped in the way that it will be going forward.

那为什么他们现在特别愿意投资于IPO呢？

So why are they more willing to invest in IPOs specifically right now in this moment?

这些投资者通常会围绕特定主题进行布局。

They tend to invest very thematically across that group of investors.

他们不是冲着季度回报来的。

So they aren't playing for quarter by quarter returns.

他们的投资非常持久。

They tend to be quite sticky.

作为投资者，他们更看重长期投入，愿意注入大笔资金。

As investors, they want to invest over a long period of time and put substantial capital to work.

因此，大规模的融资对他们更有吸引力，而不是那些波动更大、主题性不强的小型IPO。

So larger capital raises necessarily are more attractive to them as opposed to smaller cap IPOs that may have more volatility and may not be as thematically oriented.

你提到的主题，比如AI，确实是当前的核心方向。

So when you say I mean, the themes here, AI is the big theme here.

最近我一直在想一个问题，SK海力士在芯片领域显然占有一席之地。

One question that has been coming to my mind recently is, SK hynix is obviously there in the chip space.

我们已经看到新云公司陆续上市了。

We've seen the Neo Cloud companies also with their debuts.

我一直在等AI的应用层发展到足够成熟，再通过公开市场融资。

I'm sort of waiting for the application layer of AI to get big enough to then seek capital through the public markets.

如果你看看AI的不同领域，是不是觉得基础设施和芯片公司会率先上市，大概两三年后，才会轮到应用层公司？

I mean, if you think about the different pockets of AI, do you think it largely is the infrastructure and chip companies that go public first, and maybe two, three years down the pipe, we start to see application layer companies?

你是怎么看待这个问题的？

Or how are you thinking about this?

芯片公司和AI底层架构公司确实是最早上市的。

The chip companies and the sort of base layers of the layer cake of AI have been the first to go public.

无论是边缘端还是数据中心，都是这样。

You're seeing that both on the edge side as well as within the data center.

这才是核心。

That's the core.

在电力领域，也已经有不少动作了。

You've seen a lot go on in the power space as well.

关键在于这些公司的上市时机和顺序，以及达到上市所需的规模。

The question is timing and sequencing of these things and the scale that's required to go public.

目前私人资本市场仍然有大量资金待投。

There's still a huge amount of capital out there in the private capital markets.

所以我认为，很多应用层公司正在观望，预计将在未来十二到十八个月内迎来下一轮浪潮。

And so I think many of the application layers are waiting and gonna be part of the next wave that takes place over the course of the next twelve and eighteen months.

它们迟早会上市的。

So they're gonna come.

只是时间问题。

It's a question of when.

目前它们正寻求与高质量的跨界机构投资者进行私募融资。

And I think they're looking to raise private capital today with high quality crossover institutional investors.

我们下周将在门洛帕克举办一场私人AI峰会。

We have our private AI conference coming up next week Menlo Park.

我预计会有大量这类公司出席这场活动，目标是筹集跨界资本，并在未来二十四个月内实现上市。

And I think you're gonna see a lot of those types of companies attending that event, looking to raise crossover capital and ultimately be IPOs over the course of the next twenty four months.