特朗普允许英伟达H200在中国销售，IBM以110亿美元收购Confluent，AI的中期威胁 | 2025年12月9日

欢迎各位收看Informations TI TV。

Welcome everyone to the Informations TI TV.

我叫阿卡什·帕什拉查。

My name is Akash Pashracha.

今天是12月9日，星期二。

It is Tuesday, December 9.

今天我们有一场盛大的节目。

We have got a big show ahead of us today.

首先，特朗普总统允许英伟达向中国销售其H200芯片。

First up, president Trump is allowing NVIDIA to sell its h 200 chips in China.

真正的问题是，北京现在是否真的需要这些芯片。

The real question is whether Beijing even wants them right now.

我们很快将邀请一位顶级战略家和我们的主编对此进行详细分析。

We will break that all down with a top strategist and our editor in chief very shortly.

接着，我们将深入探讨我们今天早上发布的一则重要报道，关于AI反弹如何影响中期选举。

We'll then dive into a crucial story we published this morning about how AI backlash could shape the midterm elections.

我们还将与CoreWeave探讨其新的软件功能，并采访IBM和Confluent的高管，讨论他们价值110亿美元的交易。

We also have a conversation with CoreWeave about its new software features, and we have an interview with executives from IBM and Confluent to discuss their $11,000,000,000 deal.

最后但同样重要的是，我们将以最新加入ChatGPT浪潮的公司Instacart的新闻作为节目的结尾，该公司将很快允许您通过聊天机器人直接购买杂货。

And last but not least, we will close the show with news about the latest company to jump on the chat GPT train, Instacart, which will soon let you shop for groceries directly through the chatbot.

这是一期重磅节目，所以我们马上进入正题。

It is a big show, and so let's get right on into things.

特朗普总统已批准英伟达向中国销售其H200芯片。

President Trump has given NVIDIA the go ahead to sell its H200 chips in China.

当然，他与美国政府达成了一项协议，美方将获得其中25%的收入。

He, of course, has cut quite the deal with the US government taking 25 of that revenue.

他表示，《华尔街日报》今天早上报道，中国将限制H200芯片在中国的销售，以提升本国芯片产业的竞争力。

He says, The Feet is reporting this morning that China will limit H200 sales in China to make the domestic chip sector more competitive.

当然，我们已在《信息》杂志的报道中对此事进行了深入跟踪。

That is of course a story that we have covered in great deal through our coverage at The Information.

因此，为了全面解析此事，我邀请我们的主编杰西卡·莱森和摩尔洞察与战略公司的帕特里克·摩尔加入讨论。

And so to break it all down, I want to bring on our editor in chief, Jessica Lesson, and Patrick Moorhead from Moor Insights and Strategy.

早上好，两位。

Good morning to you both.

很高兴你们能来。

It's great to have you here.

嗨，阿卡什。

Hi, Akash.

谢谢你们邀请我，我很期待讨论这个话题。

Thanks I'm for having excited to talk about this.

杰西卡，我想先从你开始，因为感觉我们之前就经历过类似的情况，比如H20。

Jessica, I want to start with you because it feels like we've kind of been on this train before with the H20.

我们一直玩着猫鼠游戏。

We had the cat and mouse game.

我们自己也做过报道，称中国表示目前对H20芯片其实并不感兴趣。

We of course had our own reporting that China says we're not even really that interested in the h 20 chip right now.

现在NVIDIA却说，他们甚至都不再生产H20了。

And now NVIDIA is saying we're not even making the h 20.

你知道吗？

You know?

这简直是个僵局。

It's it's kind of a standstill.

这听起来像是某种姿态或新闻稿，对吧，阿卡什？

What makes us think sounds like it's some some kind of posturing a press release, Akash.

但不是的。

But no.

你知道，昨天我看到这个消息时，回想起一年半前，我曾和当时的商务部长吉娜·雷蒙多一起去北京，观看她与中国同行谈判出口管制事宜。

You know, when I saw this yesterday, a year and a half ago, I went to Beijing with then commerce secretary Gina Raimondo to watch her negotiate these export controls with her counterparts in China.

尽管当时是完全不同的政府，处于完全不同的时期，但即便那时，也明显看出实际进展寥寥无几。

And while it was a very different administration in a very different time, even then, it was clear there was not much action going on.

当时只有大量的谈话和外交周旋。

There was just a lot of talk and diplomacy.

我认为，这真是一个引人注目的举动。

And I think, you know, it's a fascinating move.

我们数周以来一直在报道，美国政府倾向于允许这些芯片的出口，这显然显示了英伟达的游说力量。

We've been reporting in the information for weeks that the US government was leaning towards allowing these chips, obviously showing the lobbying power of NVIDIA.

但还有很多疑问，我认为你一语中的。

But there are many questions and I think you nailed it.

在美国，我们往往忘记北京是另一面。

In The US, we tend to forget that Beijing is the other side of the coin.

这就像TikTok和字节跳动发生的情况一样。

And, you know, this happened with TikTok and ByteDance.

这不仅仅是华盛顿想要什么，更是北京想要什么。

It's not just what Washington wants, it's what Beijing wants.

现在，这确实是个问题。

Now, does have a problem.

当地的华为芯片和其他国产芯片在训练性能上无法与这些芯片抗衡。

The local Huawei chips and other domestic chips cannot beat these chips when it comes to training.

因此，我认为中国有可能允许这些美国芯片用于训练，但绝对不允许用于推理。

And so I do think there is some possibility of China letting these US chips in for training, definitely not inference.

但目前这还只是一堆声明，我们真的还不清楚。

But right now, it's just a bunch of statements, and, we really don't know yet.

帕特里克，你对这个怎么看？

Patrick, what do you think of this?

所以，我不确定是否现在就把这当作现实，对吧？

So I don't know if I take this as reality yet, right?

我们看到了很多‘是’，很多‘否’，很多姿态，很多谈判。

We've seen a lot of yeses, a lot of nos, a lot of posturing, a lot of negotiation.

但我很惊讶，我们竟然从认为H20是个坏主意，变成了认为H200是个好主意。

But I am surprised that we somehow went from the H20 being a bad idea to the H200 being a good idea.

我认为人们意识到，你不可能用H200来构建下一代前沿模型，你真的需要Blackwell才行。

I think that people realize you're not going to build a next generation frontier model using an H200, you really need a Blackwell for that.

正如杰西卡所说，尽管华为的CloudMatrix在完全联网时表现不错，但它需要六到十倍的电力，而且训练下一代前沿模型要困难得多。

And as Jessica said, even though Huawei CloudMatrix is pretty good when it's completely networked, but it takes six to 10X more power, And it's a lot more difficult to train a next generation of Frontier model.

所以在它们开始出货、NVIDIA开始公布相关收入之前，我还不相信这件事已经板上钉钉。

So until they start shipping and revenue gets cited by NVIDIA, I'm not yet a believer that this is a done deal.

那么，帕特里克，我想谈谈为了让这件事成为定局，接下来需要发生什么。

I want to talk about then, Patrick, what needs to happen then for this to be a done deal.

接下来的步骤是什么？

What is the next step here?

嗯。

Yeah.

所以看起来像是

So it looks like

我的意思是，鹰派、国防部和商务部以及其他部门之间一直存在摩擦。

there is I mean, there's always been friction between the Hawks, the Defense Department, and the Commerce Department and others.

讽刺的是，即使是H20，也很大程度上是根据联邦政府BIS关于密度和性能的规定而被列为绿色的。

The irony is that even the age 20 was very much a green based on the federal government's BIS regulations about density and performance.

但我认为必须做到的是，建立相应的可观测性和追踪机制，以确保这些H200被用在正确的地方。

But what I think has to happen is that the, I'll call it the observability and the tracking mechanisms need to be in place to make sure that these H200s go to the right place.

听好了，如果中国的优步或Instacart使用H200进行推理或训练一个不错的模型，这根本不是国家安全问题。

Listen, it's not a national security issue if the Uber of China or the Instacart of China is using H200s to even do inference or create a decent model.

我相信相关文件是存在的。

I do believe that the paperwork exists.

只是需要落实并获得批准。

It just has to be implemented and okay.

但在英伟达确认收入之前，我认为任何事情都有可能发生。

But until NVIDIA recognizes revenue, I think anything can happen.

所以，杰西卡，几天前我们邀请了亚洲局的坦纳做客节目，当时我们深入讨论了中国正在构建的平行生态系统——不仅包括自己的芯片，还有自己的模型。

So Jessica, we had Tanner from our Asia Bureau on the show a couple days ago, and we talked a lot about this parallel ecosystem that China is trying to build with its own, not just chips, but its own models.

这并不一定要求它们比北美推出的产品更好。

And it doesn't necessarily matter if it's not as good as the stuff coming out of North America.

关键在于他们都使用自己的技术。

It just matters that they're all using their own technology.

我想问你的是，你认为这种风险有多大？

My question for you is how much of a risk do you think this is?

另外，从长远来看，我们已经看到这种情况上演了。

And also, I mean, long term here, I mean, we've seen this play out.

中国最终会赶上，用自己的芯片，对吧？

China is going to catch up at some point, right, with their own chips?

完全正确。

Completely.

我完全反对这种战争类比。

I completely reject this war analogy.

我以前说过。

I've said it before.

我理解这种说法在激发创新和竞争方面的目的。

I mean, I understand its purpose in galvanizing innovation and competition.

你私下问任何一家领先科技公司的首席执行官，他们都会说中国紧随其后，迟早会达到同等水平。

You talk to any CEO of a leading tech company privately, and they say China's right behind and is gonna be as good.

认为能遏制中国的这种想法是愚蠢的。

And this idea of keeping them at bay is foolish.

但这并不意味着美国不应该尽最大努力保持竞争力。

Now it doesn't mean The US shouldn't try to be as competitive as possible.

我的困惑在于，特朗普政府声称要从这些芯片的销售中抽取25%的分成。

I mean, aspect of of this that I'm confused about is the 25% cut the Trump administration is saying it's gonna take from the sales of these chips.

政府从国防承包商的对外军售中抽成并不罕见。

Now it's not unprecedented to have the government take a cut of, say, foreign defense sales from defense contractors.

但那种情况下，政府通常参与了部分研发并支持了这些技术。

But the thinking there has been that the government has been doing some of the R and D and backing those technologies.

但这里的情况并非如此。

That's not the case here.

所以我认为，这一点也值得人们深入质疑，当我们谈论美国私营部门时，这种做法显然非常前所未有。

So so I think this is also something that people should really be questioning and and honestly seems quite unprecedented when we're talking about the private sector in The United States.

帕特里克，我们经常听到英伟达对中国市场的销售情况。

Patrick, we hear a lot about NVIDIA's sales to China.

那其他芯片公司呢？

What about all the other chip companies?

我的意思是，它们也都深陷其中。

I mean, they all have skin in the game too.

我们很少谈论AMD对中国市场的销售，甚至更少提及超大规模云服务商。

We don't talk about AMD sales to China or even the hyperscalers.

我们知道谷歌的TPU正在获得越来越多的市场份额。

We know that Google's TPU is getting traction.

我的意思是，关于他们向海外销售TPU的国际努力，我们到底了解多少？

I mean, what do we know about their international efforts to sell it abroad?

是的。

Yeah.

我曾在AMD担任高管十多年。

So I was an executive at AMD for over a decade.

即使在那时，我们就对一种名为FLOPS的指标有明确的限制，对吧？

And even back then, we had very clear restrictions on a metric called FLOPS, right?

这种指标用于开发能够执行天气模拟、核模拟等任务的超级计算机。

That was used to develop supercomputers that could do anything from weather simulation to nuclear simulations.

因此，这对AMD来说一直是个重要问题。

So this is very much a thing for AMD.

而且，如果我们真的看到像TPU这样的产品出口——我认为我们不会看到——这些限制也同样适用。

And it will also, I mean, if we ever see exports of something like a TPU, which I doubt we will, it would apply to them as well.

这些限制在时间表上非常明确。

And the restrictions are very clear on the schedule.

它是一个基于性能和密度的二维矩阵，每年都会更新。

It's a two by two matrix on performance and density, and that gets updated every year.

但AMD肯定会参与这场游戏，而当英特尔在2026年推出其新技术时，他们也会被纳入其中。

But AMD very much is going to be part of this game, and when Intel in 2026, when they bring out some of their new technology, they will too.

一些初创公司，比如Grok，也会被涵盖在内。

Some of the startups like Grok will be covered, too.

所以，杰西卡，以你记者的身份——我说这个是因为你是主编，

So Jessica, with your reporter hat on, and I say this because you are the editor in chief,

但我知道，你也

but I know, you also

一顶帽子。

a hat.

嗯。

Yeah.

你骨子里是个记者。

You're a reporter at heart.

戴着这顶记者帽，除了试图揣测特朗普政府在Truth Social或X上发布的下一条动态背后的想法外，你现在最想弄清楚的重大战略问题是什么？

With that hat on, besides trying to figure out what the Trump administration is thinking with their next post on Truth Social or on X, I mean, what are the big strategic questions that you are trying to get answers to right now?

嗯，我的意思是，帕特里克已经为你点明了关键问题：这些芯片会流出去吗？

Well, I mean, obviously, I think Patrick nailed it for you know, will these chips flow?

收入会流出去吗？

Will the revenue flow?

谁会得到它们？

Who's gonna get them?

我们的所有报道都表明，你或许能试图控制谁得到这些芯片，但中国正在获得这些芯片。

I mean, all our reporting suggests that you can try and control who gets them, but China's getting the chips.

还有深势科技、阿里巴巴和腾讯这些公司。

So and, you know, the DeepSeeks and and the Alibaba's and the Tencent's.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为还存在一个巨大的灰色市场。

So I I think there is a huge gray market as well.

这一点已经被许多出版物，包括我们自己，充分记录过了。

It's been well documented by many publications, including ourselves.

因此我认为这值得更深入的审视，因为最终，中国的这些模型已经非常非常先进了。

And so I think that's worthy of of more scrutiny because in the end of the day, you know, the these models are very, very advanced in China.

而且，敬请关注本周我们关于中国一些主要模型制造商以及华为进展的更多报道。

And and that's also and and stay tuned for more reporting this week on some of the progress of some of these major model makers in China as well as Huawei, of course.

我的意思是，虽然我们指出它们在训练方面并非可行的竞争对手，而且由于一系列出口管制措施将限制其在底层的发展，它们仍在取得进展。

I mean, while we pointed out that they're not a viable competitor in training and probably won't be because of a range of export controls that are gonna prevent that lowered out in the stack, they are making progress.

这也是一个值得关注的重要话题。

And that is another important topic to look out for.

很好。

Great.

好了，杰西卡和帕特里克，感谢你们的到来。

Well, Jessica and Patrick, I want to thank you for coming on.

这是一个快速发展的故事，我预计我们才刚刚看到它的开端。

It is a fast moving story, and I anticipate we have only just seen the beginnings of it.

这位是我们的主编杰西卡·莱森，以及来自More Insights and Strategy的帕特里克·穆尔黑德，欢迎来到TI TV。

That is Jessica Lessen, our editor in chief, and Patrick Moorhead from More Insights and Strategy here on TI TV.

明年将举行中期选举，政客们已经开始思考人工智能问题将如何影响选民的看法。

Midterm elections are coming up next year, and politicians are already starting to think about how AI issues will start to shape voters' perspectives.

今天，我们的华盛顿特区记者西尔维娅·瓦努姆·奥雷根发布了一篇报道，探讨了人们对就业替代、电力成本以及数据中心影响的担忧，如何可能影响2026年的选举。

Today, our Washington DC correspondent, Sylvia Varnum O'Regan is out with a story about how fear around labor displacement, electricity costs, the impact of data centers could influence the twenty twenty six elections.

我想请她来谈谈这一切。

I want to bring her on to talk all about it.

西尔维娅，欢迎再次回到节目。

Sylvia, welcome back to the show.

很高兴你在这里。

It's great to have you here.

嗨，阿卡什。

Hi Akash.

很高兴来到这里。

Great to be here.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

我得告诉你，天啊，反对声已经开始出现了。

So I have to tell you, gosh, the backlash begins.

我的意思是，选民们现在都在关注人工智能。

I mean, AI is on voters' minds.

你已经在全国各地与人们交谈，他们一直在思考这个问题。

You've been talking to people all around the country that have been thinking about this issue.

他们跟你说了些什么？

What are they telling you?

是的，我认为这是即将到来的中期选举中的一个重大议题。我写这个报道的真正目的，是想在全国范围内深入了解这些问题如何影响选民，以及明年竞选国会席位的某些候选人如何将这些问题纳入他们的竞选策略中。

Yeah, I think that this is a huge issue going into the midterm elections, and what I really wanted to do with the story was to look across the country and to better understand how these issues were playing out for voters and how certain candidates who are running for Congress next year are positioning these issues as part of their campaigns.

我与一位佐治亚州的国会议员候选人交谈过，那里有大量数据中心，她说自己经常参加每周都会提到这个问题的会议。

I spoke with a congressional candidate in Georgia where there is a huge number of data centers, and she said that she was going to meetings where this was coming up almost on a weekly basis.

选民们对这些数据中心的存在以及如此多的数据中心正在规划中感到非常担忧。

A lot of concern among constituents out there about the impact of having these data centers and having so many in the works.

还有几个拟建的数据中心。

There are several proposed data centers also.

她希望将这个问题作为自己竞选的核心议题。

And she was looking to really make this a focus of her campaign.

同样，我与一位孟菲斯的候选人交谈过，还与一位纽约的候选人讨论过，他们都在积极推动关于安全问题的AI监管。

Similarly, I spoke to a candidate in Memphis, and also talked to a candidate out here in New York who was really pushing for AI regulation around safety issues.

对。

Right.

所以你正在与这些人都交谈。

And so you're talking to all these people.

这些人来自两党。

These are people from both sides of the aisle.

我的意思是，你知道，他们觉得这会在即将到来的选举中如何体现出来？

I mean, you know, how do they imagine this manifests itself in the upcoming elections?

嗯，现在还为时过早，所以我觉得还有很多事情会发展。

Well, it is still very early, so I think there's a lot to come.

但我确实认为，随着人工智能成为我们生活中如此重要的一部分，我们正看到人们对这项技术的担忧，无论是失业、电费问题，正如你提到的，还有儿童安全和隐私问题。

But I do think that we're seeing, as AI becomes such a big part of all of our lives, we are seeing concerns about this technology, whether that's job losses, electricity costs, as you mentioned, also child safety and privacy issues.

因此，这些候选人——我应该明确指出，我交谈过的候选人都是民主党人。

So these candidates and I should be clear that the the candidates I spoke to were Democrats.

然而，根据我的报道，这些议题确实同时困扰着民主党和共和党的选民，因为电费问题在当前已经牵动了如此多的人。

However, it's true that these these issues are something that are of concern to both Democratic and Republican voters from from my reporting because these issues around electricity costs are concerns for so many at this point.

但也有共和党人表达了对人工智能的担忧，因此你也能看到该党内部在如何应对人工智能的快速发展方面也存在分歧。

But there also are Republicans who have voiced concerns about AI, so you're seeing divisions in that party also about how to kind of handle this rapid pace of AI development as well.

我们刚刚在十一月举行了一次选举。

So we just had an election in November.

有没有候选人大力推动这个议题？

Were there any candidates that really pushed this agenda?

我们看到它的影响了吗？

Did we see the impacts of it at all?

我认为这些选举推动了这个问题，开始引发这些疑问：这些问题是否会成为更突出的选民关切？

I think these races was what sort of catapulted this issue and started to raise these questions about will these issues become more prominent voter concerns?

它们在未来是否会影响更多选民？

Will they influence more voters going forward?

因为你在弗吉尼亚州和新泽西州看到候选人将他们的竞选活动集中在电价以及数据中心的影响上，认为数据中心应该支付公平的费用。

Because you you saw candidates out in in Virginia and in New Jersey really focusing their campaigns around electricity prices and the impact of data centres and data centres having to pay their fair share.

这似乎引起了选民的共鸣。

And this seemed to resonate with voters.

当然，这些政客在这些地区还关注了其他问题，但这些关切确实成为他们竞选活动的核心，并且他们取得了成功。

Of course, there were other issues too that these politicians focused on in these areas, but there was a sort of current of these concerns being at the center of their campaigns, and they were successful.

现在，每当在政治讨论中提到这一点时，显然会涉及企业一方，即企业试图推动与自身平台立场一致的候选人。

Now, whenever this comes up in discussion around politics, there obviously is the company angle to it, and companies trying to push candidates that are in agreement with their own platforms.

你看，大型科技公司——我的意思是，这个话题已经存在很久了，因为这些大型科技公司已经存在了几十年。

Look, the big tech companies I mean, this is a story that's been around for a while, given that these big tech companies have been there for decades.

像OpenAI和Anthropic这样的新兴科技公司，它们在其生命周期中只经历过几次选举周期。

That the newer tech companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, they've only lived through a couple election cycles in their lifetime.

它们现在在政治中参与了多少？

How much are they involved in politics right now?

这正是我想做这个报道的另一个原因，因为这个问题涉及多个层面，其中之一就是监管的角度。

Well, that was another reason why I wanted to do the story, because there are so many layers to this, and one of them is the angle around regulation.

谁来控制人工智能公司，以及它们能做什么、不能做什么？

Who controls AI companies and what they can and cannot do?

目前，在华盛顿和全国各地，围绕这个问题正展开一场激烈的斗争，因为特朗普政府希望阻止各州监管人工智能。

And there's really a big fight playing out in Washington right now and across the country about this because the Trump administration wants to block states from being able to regulate AI.

事实上，特朗普总统本周在Truth Social上发帖表示，他打算发布一项行政命令来实现这一目标。

President Trump, in fact, posted on Truth Social this week that he intended to put out an executive order to this effect.

已经有多次尝试试图推动这一举措通过。

And there have been several attempts made to get this sort of over the line.

科技行业支持这一努力。

The tech industry is supportive of this effort.

例如，各州的政客和州长，包括罗恩·德桑蒂斯，都不支持这一做法，他们认为各州有权根据自身判断对这项至关重要的技术实施监管措施。

A of politicians in states state governors, for example, including Ron DeSantis are not supportive of it and say that states have the right to implement guardrails around this really important technology as they see fit.

政府正在推动某种全国性的立法。

The administration is pushing for some kind of national legislation.

我不确定具体细节是什么，以及这将如何实现，但科技公司已经表示支持这一举措。

Not sure of the details of that or how that would come together, but technology companies have come out in support of that.

因此，你正看到这些公司逐渐介入其中。

So you are seeing these companies sort of get involved.

这些公司的高管们也在积极参与。

Executives from these companies are also getting involved.

目前已经成立了几个超级政治行动委员会，分别推动反对州级监管的立场和反对这一立场。

There are a couple of super PACs that have been formed, both to push this sort of anti state regulation line and to counter it.

例如，OpenAI的总裁格雷格·布罗克曼向支持反对州级AI监管的超级政治行动委员会捐款，并支持那些与他们立场一致的候选人。

And OpenAI's president Greg Brockman, for example, has donated to the former, or the PAC that's pushing back against state AI regulation and looking to support candidates who are in line with their views on that.

对我来说，想到这些公司正在筹集并将继续筹集巨额资金以维持运营，再结合政治环境最终走向，感觉其中越来越大的一部分资金将不得不用于有效游说政府。

It is kind of funny to me to think about the amount of money that these companies are raising and will have to continue to raise to satisfy their operations, And then squaring that with whatever direction the political climate ends up going, it feels like a growing percentage of that may have to go to lobbying the government effectively.

你看，我不确定这个比例是否真的会增长，但想到这些公司为了游说政府而筹集资金，而且这确实是正在发生的事，这还挺有意思的。

Look, don't know if the percentage is actually going to grow or not, but it is kind of interesting to think about these companies fundraising to lobby the government at some capacity and the fact that that is totally something that happens.

我的意思是，这有时候并不被人们谈论。

I mean, it's something that is not talked about sometimes.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我今年的很多报道之所以有趣，正是因为我们都看到这些公司大大增加了在华盛顿特区的存在感。

Well, I mean, lot of my reporting this year, and why I think that my area of coverage is so interesting, is because we've seen these companies really increase their presence in Washington, D.

C。

C.

许多首席执行官都与特朗普建立了个人联系，他们无疑大幅增加了游说支出，因为他们希望推动这项技术的发展，获取政府合同，并减少对它的限制。

A lot of these CEOs are making personal inroads with Trump, And they certainly have increased their lobbying spend absolutely because they want to be able to push forward this technology to grow their businesses, to secure government contracts, and and really to have fewer restraints on that.

因此，那些试图在联邦标准出台前通过立法的各州，对这些公司构成了障碍，他们显然不希望这样。

And so the states which have been looking to pass legislation in lieu of any kind of federal standard, they pose roadblocks to these companies, and so they obviously don't want that.

因此，这对这些公司来说事关重大。

So there is a lot at stake here for these companies.

对。

Right.

西尔维娅，非常感谢你前来做客。

Well, Sylvia, thank you so much for coming on.

我们非常感激。

We really appreciate it.

这是一个我们讨论得不够多的问题，我很期待很快再邀请你回来。

It's an issue that we don't talk about enough, and I'm excited to have you back again on soon.

谢谢。

Thanks.

感谢你。

Appreciate it.

好的。

Okay.

CoreWeave今天宣布了一些新功能，帮助企业管理和跟踪它们使用GPU的方式。

CoreWeave announced some new features today, helping businesses manage and track the ways in which they use GPUs.

CoreWeave 当然属于我们一直在密切关注的公司类别，即新云服务商。

CoreWeave, of course, falls into a category of companies that we have been tracking very closely at the information, the Neo Clouds.

今天为我们详细介绍这一新闻的是首席工程官陈·戈德堡。

Here to tell us more about the news is Chen Goldberg, Senior Vice President of Engineering.

陈，欢迎来到节目。

Chen, welcome to the show.

很高兴你能来到这里。

It's great to have you here.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

早上好。

Good morning.

我很期待今天能聊聊这些新功能。

So I'm excited to talk about the new features today.

请给我们介绍一下 CoreWeave 今天发布的 Mission Control 扩展功能。

Tell us a little bit about the Mission Control expansion that CoreWeave is unveiling today.

当然。

Sure.

如果你想想现在AI正在发生什么，就会发现这类工作负载需要一种不同的架构。

So, you know, if you think about what's happening right now with AI is that the type of workloads requires a different type of architecture.

这正是我们长期以来一直在做的事情：将整个堆栈视为一个整体。

And that's what we've been doing for a long time, is thinking about the stack as one.

不仅对堆栈的每一部分都保持刻意设计，还要从整体上思考它。

So not only being intentional about every part of the stack, but how we think about it holistically.

今天，通过Mission Control，我们向所有客户提供了与我们内部相同的可见性和透明度，这意味着问题检测变得更加简单，他们能够实时获取数据，从而真正消除对环境中从硬件到模型发生情况的猜测，他们可以查看从数据中心到他们的任何信息。

Today with Mission Control, we are actually providing visibility and transparency to all of our customers the same way that we have it internally, which means the detection becomes simpler and they really have the data in real time that allows them to understand and really stop the guesswork of what's happening in their environments from metal to model, meaning they can see anything from the data center up I'm to their

我很好奇，当你与客户交谈时，是什么痛点促使你首先推出这个功能？

curious, when you were talking to customers, what was the pain point that you had that prompted you to make this feature in the first place?

我昨天刚和一位企业客户交谈过，他们提到了三件他们关心的事情。

You know, I was just talking with an enterprise customer yesterday, and they mentioned three things that they care about.

第一件事是性能。

The first thing is performance.

有两个原因：当然，GPU很昂贵，他们希望优化并确保以最佳方式利用环境，同时也要考虑延迟以及他们对客户做出响应的速度。

Two reasons for that, of course, GPUs are expensive and they want to optimize and make sure that they utilize the environment the best way, but also thinking about the latency and how quickly they can respond to customers.

第二点是可靠性。

The second thing is reliability.

AI工作负载对我们的客户来说变得越来越关键，他们希望确保能够为客户提供应有的保障。

AI workloads are becoming more and more critical for our customers, and they want to make sure that they can provide the right guarantees to their customers.

最后但同样重要的是安全性。

And last but not least is security.

而这三点一再出现在我们所有客户的需求中。

And really, those three things just come up again and again for all of our customers.

这是他们最关心的问题。

That's top of mind for them.

这与Mission Control的价值主张高度契合。

And that's really aligned very well with the value propositions of mission control.

现在，我想暂时离开这个功能，谈谈CoreWeave更广泛的情况。

Now, I want to take a step out of the feature and talk a little bit about CoreWeave more broadly.

我总是对像Neo Cloud这样的新兴云公司感到好奇，我们知道大型云服务商是谁，现在我们也知道了快速增长的云服务商。

One of the things that I always wonder with the neo cloud class of companies is we know that they're the big cloud providers, and now we know we have the fast growing cloud providers.

CoreWeave 如何思考与这些巨头的差异化？

How does CoreWeave think about differentiating itself against these giants?

我们拥有的优势是能够专注于这些新工作负载的需求。

The advantage that we have is that we can really focus on what these new workloads demand.

当你考虑AI工作负载时，这其中有很大的不同。

You know, there's a big difference when you think about an AI workload.

以前，每个节点或机器只运行单个任务，而现在，所有这些任务都必须一起运行并进行协调。

If before every node or a machine would run a single task, now all of these tasks have to run together, orchestrated.

这意味着，例如，如果一个节点出现故障，整个系统就会变慢。

And it means that, for example, if a single node breaks, the entire system slows down.

好吧，这只是事物变化的一个例子。

Okay, so this is just one example of how things are changing.

此外，我们对计算、网络和存储的思考方式也发生了变化。

Also, way we think about compute, network and storage has changed.

以前我们把它视为一种商品，现在性能以及有多少数据能传送到GPU正变得至关重要。

Before we thought about it as a commodity, now performance, how much data is getting to the GPU is becoming a high priority.

因此，我们向市场和客户提出的机遇是：我们正在构建一套专门为这些新型工作负载优化的新架构。

So the opportunity that we came to the market and to our customers is to say, Hey, we are building now this new stack that is really optimized for these new type of workloads.

此外，我认为我们的规模实际上是我们的一大优势，这使我们能够与客户深度合作。

In addition to that, I think that our size is actually an advantage for us, which allows us to really partner with our customers.

我们反复听到客户表示，他们非常珍惜能够直接与工程师合作、共同解决这些复杂环境问题的机会。

And that's something that we hear over and over again, that our customers appreciate their opportunity to work directly with engineering and really troubleshoot together those really complicated environments.

现在，当我想到CoreWeave时，我自然会联想到NVIDIA，以及该公司专注于GPU并帮助客户获取计算能力的方向。

Now, when I think of CoreWeave, I obviously think of NVIDIA and the focus that the company has on GPUs and helping customers access that compute.

你们是否也在使用其他芯片，比如TPU？

Are you working with other chips at all, like TPUs?

目前，我们完全根据客户需求来做出决策，而我们看到的最佳结果都来自NVIDIA。

At this moment, we are really driving that decision based on customer demand, And we are seeing the best results with NVIDIA.

我们的基础设施并不绑定于某一家芯片供应商。

Our infrastructure is not tied to a certain chip provider.

但我们非常珍惜与英伟达的合作，双方的合作一直非常顺利，为我们提供了这套系统。

But we really appreciate the partnership with NVIDIA and things have been working well for us, providing that system.

所以，CoreWeave所构建的基础设施也可以用于TPU吗？

So the infrastructure that CoreWeave has built, it could be used with TPUs?

当然可以。

100%.

那么公司有购买过TPU吗？

So has the company bought any TPUs?

目前我们还没有这样做。

At the moment, we haven't done that.

但如果客户提出这样的需求，或者我们看到更好的性能表现或市场信号，我们当然可以在未来探索其他选择。

But if a customer would raise that need, or we will see a better performance or any signals from the market, we can, of course, explore new options in the future.

总的来说，我只是好奇你们如何看待这些芯片的未来。

Broadly speaking, I'm just curious about how you think about the future of these chips.

英伟达占据了市场的绝大部分。

NVIDIA has the lion's share of the market.

它有一个非常强大的芯片。

It has a very powerful chip.

但就我个人而言，你觉得未来三年会如何发展？

But speaking personally, I mean, how do you see this evolving over the next three years?

这里的市场会不会一直由英伟达主导？

Is it always going to be NVIDIA that owns the market here?

还是说你认为AMD会随着时间推移提升其市场份额？

Or do you see AMD increasing its market share over time, for example?

我绝对不敢预测未来会是什么样子。

I definitely don't think that I can predict how things will look like.

重要的是，我们将继续与生态系统合作，确保为客户提供最佳服务。

What's important is that we'll continue to partner with our ecosystem to make sure that we deliver the best service to our customers.

很好。

Great.

好了，肯，非常感谢你今天前来。

Well, Ken, I want to thank you so much for coming on.

这是一个令人着迷的功能，也是Neo Cloud的绝佳时机。

It's a fascinating feature and a great time for Neo Cloud.

所以我们期待很快再次邀请您。

So we look forward to having you on very soon again.

这里是来自CoreWeave的Ken Goldberg，正在TI TV上。

That is Ken Goldberg from CoreWeave here on TI TV.

非常感谢您邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

好的。

Okay.

本周，IBM宣布以110亿美元收购数据流公司Confluent，Confluent的股东对这笔收购显然非常满意。

IBM this week announced it is buying data streaming company Confluent for $11,000,000,000 Confluent shareholders were obviously happy with the purchase.

这一收购价格比公司交易前的股价高出31%。

It was a 31% premium to what the company was trading at before the deal.

现在加入我们的是Confluent的联合创始人兼首席执行官Jay Kreps，以及IBM软件高级副总裁兼首席商务官Rob Thomas。

Joining us now are Jay Kreps, co founder and CEO of Confluent, and also Rob Thomas, SVP of Software and Chief Commercial Officer at IBM.

欢迎你们两位。

Welcome to you both.

很高兴你们能来。

It's great to have you here.

很高兴能来

Great to be

这里。

here.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

罗布，我想先从你开始。

Rob, I want to start with you.

谈谈这笔交易背后的考量。

Talk to us about the rationale here for the deal.

我们对Confluent感到非常兴奋。

We're incredibly excited about Confluent.

杰伊打造了一支了不起的团队，我来打个比方。

It's an incredible team that Jay has built, and I'll give you an analogy.

如果你想想工业革命，推动所有增长的是铁路将工厂与城市和人民连接起来。

If you think about the industrial revolution, what drove all the growth was when the railroads connected factories to cities and to people.

这正是人工智能目前正在经历的事情。

That's exactly what's happening to AI right now.

这是新的工业革命，我们需要为人工智能的成功铺设铁轨。

This is the new industrial revolution, and we need the rails that will make AI successful.

Confluent 及其在实时数据方面的成果，正是这个人工智能时代的铁轨。

Confluent and what they've built in terms of real time data is the rails of this AI moment.

一旦交易完成，我们非常期待 Confluent 能成为 IBM 的一部分。

We're incredibly excited to have this become part of IBM once we complete the closing process.

很好。

Great.

杰伊，我想和你聊聊 Confluent 所从事的业务。

Well, Jay, I want to talk to you a little bit about the business that Confluent is in.

如果你要向一个不懂技术的人解释，你会如何说明康夫卢ент提供的数据服务？

If you were explaining it to someone who isn't in tech, how would you explain the data services that Confluent provides?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我们提供的服务主要是关于公司各部门之间实时的数据流动。

The service we offer is all about the real time flow of data between the parts of the company.

你可以想象，如果你是一家大型零售商，当一件商品售出时，有哪些不同的软件系统、数据库和公司部门需要更新或做出反应。

So you can imagine if you're a big retailer and something is sold, what are the different software systems and databases and parts of the company that have to update or react to that.

结果发现，有数百个之多，对吧？

Well, it turns out there's hundreds, right?

但这不仅仅是零售商面临的问题。

And that's not just a problem for a retailer.

这对银行、保险公司或科技公司来说也是个问题。

That's a problem for a bank or an insurance company or a tech company.

你知道，软件最初就是在这个背景下诞生的。

You know, that's ultimately where the software was born.

所以，这本质上是关于在业务发生时实时捕捉和响应数据，构建能够响应并利用这些数据的应用程序和AI代理。

So, you know, this is all about kind of harnessing and reacting to data in real time as things are happening in a business, being able to build applications, AI agents that can react to that and use that data.

这就是软件的用途。

That's what the software is for.

那么，你觉得作为一家上市公司，你无法做到，但与IBM合作后却能实现的是什么？

And what is it that you feel you can do with IBM that you couldn't have otherwise done as a public company?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是一个将这项技术推向更大舞台的机会。

Well, I think this is an opportunity to take this to a larger stage.

你知道，IBM构建了一套涵盖不同云服务商、本地和边缘环境的应用、基础设施和安全体系。

You know, IBM has built a fabric for applications, infrastructure, security that works across the different cloud providers out into on premise and edge environments.

Confluent 之前也为数据做了类似的事情。

And Confluent had done a similar thing for data.

所以这两件事很契合。

So the two things kind of fit together.

如果你思考一下这些组织正在构建的应用程序的未来，我认为数据是其中重要的一部分。

You know, if you think about what's the future of these applications that these organizations are building, I think data is a big part of that.

每个组织都需要弄清楚如何将这些新语言模型和人工智能时代结合起来。

That's kind of the thing each organization has to figure out how to combine with these new language models and the age of AI.

因此，将这两者结合起来是自然而然的选择。

And so putting those two things together was a natural fit.

没错。

Right.

当然，IBM 在开源方面做得非常出色。

And of course, IBM has done a great job with open source.

你知道，他们构建的平台的一个关键方面是拥有这些世界希望围绕其构建的开放标准层。

You know, a key aspect of the platform they've built is having these kind of open standard layers that the world wants to build around.

Confluent也是如此。

And that's true of Confluent as well.

因此，我认为双方在第一次罗布和我聊天时，就已经明显感受到了这种战略契合。

So there was a certain strategic fit element that I think was kind of obvious on both sides, even the first time Rob and I chatted.

罗布，我想和你聊聊。

So Rob, I want to talk to you.

几个月前，杰伊和他的团队在财报电话会议上提到，AI原生客户正在通过自己管理数据来减少在Confluent上的支出。

A couple months ago, Jay and his team spoke on an earnings call about how AI native customers were finding ways to actually reduce their spend on Confluent by managing the data themselves.

我想知道你如何看待IBM内部的这个问题。

I wonder how you think about that issue within IBM.

我的意思是，你如何应对这个问题，或者你如何帮助解决这个问题？

I mean, how do you think about combating that issue or how you might be able to help with that issue?

我认为这些事情总是有起有落，我们在收购HashiCorp时也看到了类似的情况。

I think these things always go in waves, and we saw this actually when we did the acquisition of HashiCorp as well.

云消费会根据当前情况、宏观经济和公司的具体状况而上下波动。

Cloud consumption is going to go up and down based on the moment, the macroeconomics, the specifics of a company.

这始终会不断演变，但当我们进行收购时，我们是为了增长而收购。

That's always going to evolve, but when we acquire, we are acquiring for growth.

我们会退一步思考：从五到十年的视角来看，这会是什么样子？

We kind of step back and we say, What does this look like over a five or a ten year view?

在我们看来，Confluent及其提供的能力在人工智能领域将是持续上升的。

In our view, Confluent and the capability they provide is going to be up and to the right when it comes to AI.

是的，这里那里可能会有一些波动，但企业为了实现智能化和运营所需的数据支持，这种需求是不会改变的。

Yes, there may be some modulations here and there, but the need for data to support anything that a company wants to do in terms of intelligence and how they operate, that's not going to change.

相反，需求只会越来越高。

If anything, the demand's only going to go up.

我们在IBM构建Red Hat和HashiCorp的基础上，打造了这一多云平台，与AWS、Azure和GCP展开合作。

Part of what we've done in IBM building on Red Hat and HashiCorp is we've delivered this multi cloud platform, partnering with AWS, with Azure, with GCP.

因此，随着云使用量的增长，Confluent以及IBM提供的其他能力也将同步增长。

So as cloud consumption grows, Confluence is going to grow, and the other capabilities that IBM provide will also grow.

Rob，我想再跟你聊一会儿，因为我希望问问你对IBM在人工智能大格局中的定位的看法。

Rob, I want to stick with you for a minute here because I want to ask you about IBM's place in the AI story at large.

IBM在自然语言处理和深蓝等方面很早就涉足了这些领域。

IBM was so early to a lot of this stuff with natural language processing, with Deep Blue.

沃森已经有几十年历史了，但如今我们正处于这样一个时刻：不管怎样，IBM并不是人们想到人工智能时首先会想到的公司，也不是最炫目的公司。

Watson is decades old, and yet we're sort of at a moment where, be it as it may, IBM is not the first company, it's not the flashiest company that people think about when they think about AI.

人们会想到OpenAI和Anthropic，而我认为Jay也是后者的董事会成员。

They think about OpenAI and about Anthropic, where Jay, I believe, is a board member as well.

因此，我很好奇，作为一位带领销售团队的人，你是如何在这一格局中定位公司的？你们如何进入市场，以提升品牌认知度？

And so I'm curious, salesperson, as someone leading a sales team, how do you think about positioning the company in that landscape, and how do you go to market trying to increase that brand awareness?

目前，人工智能领域大多数的品牌热度都集中在消费类公司身上。

Most of the, I'd say, brand excitement right now in AI is around consumer companies.

是的，我承认IBM没有面向消费者的业务。

So yes, I acknowledge IBM has no consumer play.

我们也不打算涉足。

We don't intend to.

我们是一家B2B公司，但我认为人工智能可以分为三个阶段。

We are a B2B company, but I would think of maybe three phases of AI.

第一阶段是机器学习。

The first one was around machine learning.

那就是最初的Watson，需要大量的数据标注，老实说，成功和失败一样多。

That was the original Watson, required a lot of data labeling, and to be honest, there was as much success as there was failure.

当我们推出Watson X时，就进入了生成式AI的新时代。

When we brought out Watson X, that was about this new era of generative AI.

正如我们在上一次财报电话会议上所分享的，我们的业务规模现已达到90亿美元，这里取得了惊人的增长势头，但全部都发生在B2B领域。

As we shared on our last earnings call, our book of business is now $9,000,000,000 We've had incredible momentum here, but it's all in a B2B context.

我们正在帮助客户优化他们的技术和运营，改善供应链效率。

We're helping clients do things like optimize their technology and their operations, make their supply chain work better.

因此，我们在这里拥有巨大的增长势头，但并不一定在消费领域。

So we have a lot of momentum here, but it's not necessarily in the consumer realm.

对。

Right.

杰，我想问你一个关于采用率的问题。

Jay, I want to ask you one question about adoption.