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你正在收听TIP。
You're listening to TIP.
你好。
Hi there.
很高兴再次在《更富有、更明智、更快乐》播客中见到你。
It's wonderful to see you again on the Richer, Wiser, Happier podcast.
我们今天的嘉宾是有史以来最成功的投资者之一，传奇风险投资家迈克尔·莫里茨爵士，据《福布斯》估计，他的净资产超过70亿美元。
Our guest today is one of the most successful investors of all time, a legendary venture capitalist named Sir Michael Moritz, whose net worth is estimated by Forbes at more than $7 billion.
正如你将听到的，他和红杉资本的同事们通过非常早期投资于英伟达、谷歌、YouTube、爱彼迎、PayPal、Stripe和领英等企业，获得了惊人的回报。
As you'll hear, he and his colleagues at Sequoia Capital racked up astonishing returns by investing very early in businesses like Nvidia, Google, YouTube, Airbnb, PayPal, Stripe, and LinkedIn.
莫里茨在识别一些有史以来最成功的企业创始人方面极具远见，但他还有另一个秘诀，那就是耐心持有获胜的投资，从不卖出。
Moritz was incredibly farsighted in identifying some of the most successful corporate founders of all time, but he also had another secret, the patience to hold onto his winning investments and never sell.
查理·芒格曾告诉我，这种性格上的优势帮助解释了为什么莫里茨的表现超过了几乎所有同行。
Charlie Munger once told me that this temperamental advantage helped to explain why Moritz outperformed pretty much all of his peers.
但在我们开始与迈克尔·莫里茨的对话之前，我还想快速提一下，我的《更富有、更明智、更快乐》大师课还有几个名额，课程将于12月开始。
But before we get to my conversation with Michael Moritz, I also wanted to mention quickly that I still have several open spaces in my Richer, Wiser, Happier Masterclass, which begins in December.
这是一个和我一起学习一年的机会，小组非常小，关系紧密，大概会有10到20个人。
This is an opportunity to study with me over the course of a year in a very small, intimate group that's likely to be somewhere between 10 and 20 people.
我们每个月通过Zoom见一次面，还会在几个特别的活动中线下聚一聚。
We'll meet once a month over Zoom, and we'll also get together in person at a couple of unique events.
目标是打造一段为期一年的探索之旅，帮助你朝着更富有、更智慧、更幸福的生活迈进。
The aim is to create a year-long journey of exploration to help you move toward a life that is truly richer, wiser, and happier.
我们会深入讨论如何把从约翰·邓普顿爵士、查理·芒格、霍华德·马克斯、比尔·米勒和尼克·斯利普这些伟大投资者身上学到的经验，真正应用到我们自己的生活中。
We'll talk in depth about how we can actually apply in our own lives the lessons I've learned from great investors like Sir John Templeton, Charlie Munger, Howard Marks, Bill Miller, and Nick Sleep.
不仅仅是关于如何积累持久财富的教训，还有如何思考和如何生活的智慧。
Not just lessons about how to build enduring wealth, but about how to think and how to live.
这将是我连续第三年举办“更富有、更智慧、更幸福”大师课，我计划把这作为这门课的最后一期。
This will be the third year in a row that I've hosted a Richer, Wiser, Happier Masterclass, and I'm planning to make this my final offering of the class.
前两期的学员来自世界各地，都是非常出色的人，包括一些非常成功的对冲基金经理和共同基金经理、资产配置者、财富顾问、家族办公室管理者、一位医生、一位管理顾问、几位CEO和企业家，甚至还有一位著名的物理学家转行做了量化基金经理。
The first two groups include an amazingly accomplished selection of people from around the world, including some hugely successful hedge fund managers and mutual fund managers, asset allocators, wealth advisors, managers of family offices, a medical doctor, a management consultant, several CEOs and entrepreneurs, and even a renowned physicist turned quant fund manager.
但对我来说最重要的是，他们是一群特别有思想、有灵魂的人，喜欢互相学习，分享关于投资、商业和生活的见解。
But what matters most to me is that they're an unusually thoughtful, soulful group of people who love learning from one another and sharing insights about investing, business, and life.
如果你是一位热衷的投资者，又热爱学习，想了解更多关于这门大师课的信息，欢迎联系我的朋友兼播客主持人凯尔·格雷格，他可以回答你关于日期、价格等问题。
If you're a keen investor and a passionate learner and would like to know more about the master class, please feel free to contact my friend and fellow podcast host, Kyle Greig, and he can answer any questions you might have about dates, prices, and the like.
他的邮箱地址是 Kyle，拼写是 K-Y-L-E，@theinvestorspodcast.com。
His email address is Kyle, that's K-Y-L-E, @theinvestorspodcast.com.
我可能有点偏心，但我认为这真的是一个难得的机会，让你成为更好的投资者，更深入地思考你想要的生活方式，并与一群非常特别的人建立深厚的友谊。
I'm totally biased, but I think this is a really rare opportunity to become a better investor, to think more deeply about how you want to live, and to build rich friendships with a very special group of people.
如果你对这个想法感兴趣，请联系凯尔，如果一切顺利，我期待在十二月见到你。
If this idea appeals to you, please reach out to Kyle, and if the stars align, I'd love to see you in December.
现在，回到节目。
And now, back to the show.
你正在收听《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》播客，主持人威廉·格林采访世界上最伟大的投资者，探讨如何在市场和生活中获胜。
You're listening to the Richer, Wiser, Happier Podcast, where your host, William Green, interviews the world's greatest investors and explores how to win in markets and life.
本节目不构成投资建议，仅供参考和娱乐。
This show is not investment advice, it's intended for informational and entertainment purposes only.
主持人和嘉宾表达的所有观点仅代表他们个人，他们可能持有讨论中提到的证券。
All opinions expressed by hosts and guests are solely their own, and they may have investments in the securities discussed.
现在，有请主持人威廉·格林。
Now for your host, William Green.
大家好。
Hi, folks.
今天我非常激动地请到了我们的嘉宾，迈克尔·莫里茨爵士，他可以说是史上最成功的风险投资家。
I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome today's guest, Sir Michael Moritz, who's arguably the most successful venture capitalist of all time.
他在红杉资本待了大约38年，在公司对雅虎、谷歌、YouTube、PayPal、Airbnb、Zappos、Klarna、LinkedIn、Instacart和Stripe等早期企业的投资中发挥了重要作用。
He spent about 38 years at Sequoia Capital, playing an important role in the firm's investments in early-stage businesses like Yahoo, Google, YouTube, PayPal, Airbnb, Zappos, Klarna, LinkedIn, Instacart, and Stripe.
不仅如此，他还是一位出色的作家，刚刚在美国出版了一本很棒的新书。
For good measure, he's also a terrific writer with an excellent new book that's just been published here in the US.
我手里拿的是英国版，但这本书真的很棒。
I have the UK edition here, but it's a terrific book.
几年前，我问查理·芒格，有哪些最有趣的投资者值得我去采访，查理只提了一个人，就是迈克尔·莫里茨。
A few years ago, I asked Charlie Munger who were the most interesting investors that I should try to interview, and Charlie named one person, Michael Moritz.
查理反复说了好几次同样的话：“我觉得你会发现迈克·莫里茨很有意思。”
As Charlie put it several times, he kept repeating the same phrase, "I think you'll find Mike Moritz quite interesting."
欢迎你，迈克尔。
So welcome, Michael.
终于见到你，真是太好了。
It's wonderful to meet you finally.
哦，谢谢你这么慷慨的介绍。
Oh, well, thank you for a very generous introduction.
我想查理当时可能是状态不太好。
I think Charlie must have been having one of his weaker moments.
他可不是个容易被打动的人。
He was not an easy man to impress.
我们稍后会具体聊聊他说的那些话。
So we'll discuss some of the things specifically that he said later.
你的新书《Auslander》真的很有意思。
Your new book is really fascinating, Auslander.
这是个德语词，我猜意思是外国人、局外人或者异乡人。
It's a German word that I gather means foreigner, or outside, or alien.
我想先从你在威尔士的早年生活聊起。
And I wanted to start by talking about your early life in Wales.
如果我没记错的话，你应该是1954年出生的。
I think you were born in 1954, if I remember correctly.
我想知道你能不能给我们描述一下，在20世纪50年代和60年代初，作为一个犹太男孩在卡迪夫长大是什么样子的。
And I'm wondering if you could paint a picture for us of what it was like there to grow up as a Jewish boy in Cardiff in the 1950s and early '60s.
那里看起来怎么样，感觉如何，以及为什么你和你家里的许多其他成员都有这种局外人的感觉。
What it looked like, what it felt like, and why you, as well as many other members of your family, had this sense of being an outsider.
正如你所说，我出生在卡迪夫，你看，二战结束后不久，也就七八年吧。
As you said, I was born in Cardiff, when you look at it, fairly quickly after the end of World War II, seven or eight years.
我的父母是在别的地方结婚的，但后来我父亲在卡迪夫的威尔士大学找到了一份工作，他们就搬到了卡迪夫。
And both of my parents, they had married elsewhere, but when my father got a job at the University of Wales in Cardiff, they moved to Cardiff.
我的父母都是从纳粹德国逃出来的难民。
Both my parents were refugees from Nazi Germany.
我父亲先逃了出来，1937年被送到英国上学。
My father had got out and was sent to school in Britain in 1937.
我母亲是在1939年通过所谓的“儿童运输”离开德国的。
My mother got out of Germany on something called the Kindertransport in 1939.
在50年代初的英国，整体上，当然在威尔士可能更是如此，英国还不是今天这样的多元文化社会。
And the early 1950s in Britain writ large, and obviously also in, I think probably even more so in Wales, Britain was not the multicultural society that it is today.
当时移民到英国的人非常少。
There were very small number of immigrants to Britain.
当然有50年代初来自加勒比地区的“疾风一代”，但他们主要集中在伦敦。
There was obviously the Windrush generation in the early '50s from the Caribbean, but they mainly congregated around London.
威尔士的人口大概有两百五十万左右，两百五十万到三百万。
And the Welsh population was perhaps two and a half million or so, two and a half to three million.
在我成长的时期，威尔士大约有四百五十到六百个犹太家庭。
And there were about somewhere between 450 and 600 Jewish families in Wales at the time that I grew up.
所以，当我开始意识到自己和学校的同学、朋友在某些方面不一样时，我就意识到我们和其他人不同。
So I think as soon as I became conscious of the fact that I was different in some manner from the children that I went to school with and my friends at school, I became aware of the fact that we weren't like other people.
我可以告诉你一个小故事，这个故事对我来说，一直突出和强调了这种差异。
And I can tell you one little story, which for me, has always highlighted and accentuated the difference.
还有很多其他的例子，但最让我印象深刻的，竟然是每年新版电话簿的发放，那时候电话簿还是厚厚的一本书。
There are plenty of other examples, but the one that always sticks in my mind is, of all things, the arrival of the annual edition of the new telephone directory, and back when telephone directories were distributed in a fairly thick book.
我记得我翻看电话簿的时候，大概十几岁吧，一页页翻过去，上面全是威尔士人的姓氏，像戴维斯、埃文斯、爱德华兹、琼斯、休斯、威廉姆斯、劳埃德，还有其他一看就是威尔士血统的姓氏。
And I always remember leafing through this, I was probably in my early teens at the time, going through the pages, and they were just packed with surnames that were associated with being Welsh, and the name may have been Davies or Evans or Edwards or Jones or Hughes or Williams or Lloyd or other surnames that were unmistakably of Welsh lineage.
莫里斯也是其中之一。
Morris was another.
然后我会翻到电话簿里的M字部，希望我们不是加的夫和南威尔士电话簿里唯一一个莫里茨。
And then I would go to the M's in the telephone book, hoping that we weren't the only Moritz listed in the Cardiff and South Wales telephone directory.
但在我记忆里，每年我们都只有莫里茨一家，这比什么都更能让我感觉到，天哪，我们在这里，电话簿都在昭告我们是外来者。
But every year that I remember, we were the only Moritz, and that more than anything, signaled to me for some reason that, goodness, here we were, and the telephone directory was advertising the fact that we were outsiders.
名字这个问题真的很有意思，你父亲，就像你在书里写的，同时叫路德维希和阿尔弗雷德，所以名字在某种程度上指向了一种双重生活，一种身份的转变。
This whole issue of names is really intriguing, and your father, as you write in the book, was simultaneously Ludwig and Alfred, and so names sort of point to a little bit of a double life in a way, a change of identity.
我想知道你能不能多跟我们讲讲他，因为他显然是个了不起的人，有点严肃，但也有理由严肃，而且非常聪明。
I wonder if you could tell us more about him, because he was clearly a remarkable man, kind of a solemn man, but with every reason to be solemn, and also very brilliant.
我很想听听他到达英国的故事。
And I'd love you to tell the story of his arrival in England.
我之所以好奇，一部分是因为他上过圣保罗学校，而我上的是它的预备学校科莱特法院，但更主要的是因为这个人的才华，他学英语和适应环境的能力，还有那些愿意给他机会、让他能在1937年离开德国的人们的慷慨。
I'm curious partly because he went to St. Paul's and I went to the preparatory school, Colet Court, but also just the brilliance of the man, his ability to learn English and settle in, and also the generosity of the people who took a chance on him and made it possible for him actually to leave Germany in 1937.
先给你一些背景吧，他有一个兄弟。
So to give you a bit of background, he had one brother.
他们俩都是1920年代初在慕尼黑出生的。
Both of them were born in the early 1920s in Munich.
他们的母亲是个家庭主妇，那时候没什么家务可做，因为每个中产阶级家庭都有个管家。
Their mother was a home keeper in the days when there wasn't much home keeping to do because every sort of bourgeois family had a housekeeper.
他们的父亲叫马克斯，全名马克西米利安，是巴伐利亚司法系统里的一名低级法官。
And their father, whose name was Max, Maximilian, was a lower-level judge in the Bavarian judiciary.
和很多德国犹太人一样，马克斯在第一次世界大战中曾在德国军队服役，还获得过铁十字勋章，战后他又回到了司法系统。
And Max had, like a lot of other German Jews, served in the German army in World War I and had been given an Iron Cross, and then after the end of the war, he returned to the judiciary.
到了1930年代，他丢了工作。
Now, come the 1930s, he lost his job.
因为是犹太人，他被解雇了，尽管他之前为国家服务过。
Being a Jew, he was dismissed despite the fact that he had served the state previously.
到了1930年代中期，欧洲的犹太人和其他受迫害的少数群体显然已经风雨欲来，马克斯和他的妻子决定把父亲和叔叔都送到英国的学校去。
And by the mid-1930s, the storms were obviously gathering for Jews and other persecuted minorities in Europe, and Max and his wife decided to send both my father and my uncle, tried to get them to school in Britain.
但他们唯一能做的就是争取奖学金，因为当时太难了，这些人本来就没多少钱，而且如果你是犹太人，想把钱从德国带出来非常困难。两个男孩都必须拿到奖学金，否则他们根本负担不起在英国上学的费用。
But the only way they could do it, because it was so hard, and these people didn't have a lot of money anyway, and it was very difficult to get money out of Germany if you were Jewish back then, both of their boys had to get scholarships, otherwise they couldn't afford to be in a school in Britain.
正如你提到的，圣保罗学校给了我父亲一份奖学金。
And as you mentioned, St. Paul's School provided my father with a scholarship.
他大约14、15岁到那里，一句英语都不会说，他的字迹是那种铜板体，就是那个时代德国教育特有的字体。
He arrived there at the age of about 14, 15, not speaking a word of English, and his handwriting was the copperplate handwriting that you associate with a German education of that particular era.
他是由父亲带到英国的，被安置在圣保罗学校，就像我说的，他一句英语都不会说，也不认识任何人。
And he had been brought by his father to England and deposited at St. Paul's, where, as I said, he didn't speak a word of English, nor did he know a soul.
他没有住在学校宿舍。
And he wasn't put up in a school dormitory.
他住在英国人所谓的“寄宿处”，一个很小的公寓里。
He was put up in what the British call digs, in a tiny little apartment.
我不知道那地方是怎么熬过战争的，但我找到了一张他写给他母亲的明信片，上面说他安全地住进了西伦敦这个小房间里。
And I don't know how it survived the war, but I came across a postcard that he had written to his mother announcing that he was safely ensconced in this little room in West London.
我无法想象，寄出那张明信片时，他内心该有多么孤独。
And I can't imagine The loneliness that must have accompanied the dispatch of that car.
所以，他就是那样来到英国的。
So that was how he came to arrive in Britain.
我记得，正如你所说，他当时的神情相当严肃。
And I remember, as you said, he had a fairly solemn demeanor.
他进行的锻炼是脑力上的，不是体力上的，但他非常热衷于脑力活动，他是一个思想型的人。
The exercise he undertook was mental, not physical exercise, but he was very active with mental exercise, and he was a man of the mind.
后来，他成为了一位古典学者。
And later on, he became a classicist.
他在慕尼黑的文理中学里学过这些科目，那些课程非常偏重拉丁语、希腊语、数学和哲学。
He had studied this in the gymnasiums, in those subjects in the gymnasiums in Munich that were heavily tilted towards Latin and Greek and mathematics and philosophy.
我记得他曾说过一次，那是他很少提及那段回忆的几次之一，他说他人生中最自豪的时刻之一，就是第一次能在课堂上举手，参与课堂讨论，并用英语提问。
And I remember him saying once, in one of the few things that he said about his recollections of that era, that one of his proudest moments in life was when he was able to raise his hand in the classroom for the first time and participate in the classroom discussion and ask a question in English.
他在圣保罗学校表现出色，我想他一直对这所学校怀有深深的感情，并且非常感激这所优秀的学校为他提供了奖学金。
And he excelled at St. Paul's, and to which I think he always felt a deep association and enormously grateful that this really wonderful school had come up with a scholarship for him.
后来没过多久，他获得了牛津大学的奖学金，去读古典学。
And then a bit later on, he won a scholarship to Oxford to study classics.
还有一次，我问父亲：“你一生中最快乐的一天是哪天？”他当时说了一句让我挺意外的话。
And again, I hadn't a little bit of, again, a revelatory comment that my father made once when I asked him, "What was the happiest day of your life?"
我本来以为会是他娶我母亲那天，或者是我作为他的第一个孩子出生的那天。
Thinking, hmm, it'd be when he married my mother or when perhaps I, as his firstborn child, was born.
他说他一生中最快乐的一天，是得知自己被牛津录取为学者的那天。
He said the happiest day of his life was hearing the news that he had been admitted as a scholar in Oxford.
因为如果他没有拿到牛津的奖学金，他在英国就没有任何生活来源，会被送回德国。
And the reason for that was, had he not won that scholarship to Oxford, he had no means of sustenance or support in Britain, and he would have been shipped back to Germany.
所以那是我父亲人生的起点，多年后他最终成为了一名学者。
And so that was the beginning of my father's life, where he wound up for many years later on as an academic.
我读这本书的时候也很感动，看到像珍妮特·富兰克林·科恩这样几乎被遗忘的英国恩人。她好像不是犹太人，但嫁给了一个犹太人，基本上就是她作为英国的资助人，最初保证了您父亲的学费有人支付。
I was very moved also reading the book, just seeing that there were these people like this largely forgotten British benefactor, Jeannette Franklin Cohen, who I think was not Jewish, but had married a Jew, who basically was the British benefactor who initially guaranteed that your father's fees would be paid.
所以我觉得特别了不起的一点是——这也和您的生活很有共鸣，因为您也是一位给多所大学慷慨捐赠的人——就是当时有那么些人，突然就站了出来。
And so I think what's kind of extraordinary, and that has a lot of resonance in your life as well as someone who's been a great donor to various universities, is the fact that there were these people who came forward out of nowhere.
我觉得你叔叔也是，欧内斯特，你父亲的兄弟。
And I think your uncle as well, Ernest, your father's brother.
我记得有个很温馨的故事，他在邦德街上散步，偶然遇到了另一位流亡者，算是家里的泛泛之交，那个人为他支付了第一年的学费，我想你说过这让他余生都相信上帝。
I remember there was a lovely story where he's walking along Bond Street and has a chance meeting with another émigré, who's a vague family acquaintance, and that person pays for his first year at school, which I think you said made him believe in God for the rest of his life.
你能谈谈这件事吗？
Can you talk about that?
因为我觉得有一点非常了不起，那就是你的家庭和你的成功，其实完全是建立在那些陌生人挺身而出的善意之举上的，这些善举有些是偶然的，有些是有意的。
Because I think that there's something really extraordinary about the fact that your family and your success is actually entirely built on these sort of random acts of kindness of strangers who stepped up.
有些是偶然的，有些是有意的，但你说得完全对。
Some random, some purposeful, but you're exactly right.
为了详细说说我叔叔的故事，就像我刚才提到的，马克斯把我父亲送到了伦敦的圣保罗学校。
And just to flesh out the story about my uncle, as I mentioned a moment ago, Max had deposited my father at St. Paul's in London.
然后他回到德国，为我叔叔做了同样的事情。
He then returned to Germany to do the same for my uncle.
在英格兰南海岸的布莱顿有一所学校，我父亲知道那所学校。
And there was a school in Brighton on the south coast of England that my father knew about.
那是一所犹太男孩学校，但他们没钱支付那里的学费。
It was a school for Jewish boys, but they had no means of paying for the education there.
我记得，就像欧内斯特讲的那样，我叔叔欧内斯特和我祖父马克斯当时都运气不好，很沮丧，不知怎么的，走在邦德街上——即使在那个时候，两个难民走在那种地方也不太寻常——然后，就像你说的，他们碰巧遇到了那个熟人。
And I think there was both my Uncle Ernest and my Grandfather Max were, as Ernest told the story, sort of out of luck, despondent, and for some reason, walking down Bond Street, which is an unlikely place even then for a pair of refugees to be walking, when, as you said, they bumped into this acquaintance.
我祖父解释了困境，说他们在这所学校有个名额，但付不起学费。
And my grandfather explained the predicament, that they had a slot at this school, a place at the school, but they didn't have the means to pay for it.
那位先生，我费了好大劲想查出他的名字，但没查到，他站出来付了钱。
And this gentleman, whose name I tried very hard to find out but couldn't find out, stepped forward and paid for it.
然后，在英国还有很多人，以各种方式向这些难民敞开心扉、打开家门、慷慨解囊。
And then there were all these other people in Britain who, in one way or another, opened their hearts, their homes, their pocketbooks to these refugees.
你提到的那位女士，珍妮特·富兰克林·科恩，她在这些事情上非常活跃。
You mentioned this lady, Jeannette Franklin Cohen, who was very active in all of this.
这些人中很多并不是犹太人。
Many of these people were not Jewish.
历史书最终记录下来的，也许最著名的一位，就是那位极其谦逊、沉默寡言的尼古拉斯·温顿，他组织了我在采访开始时提到的“儿童运输”，把大约一万名犹太儿童从受纳粹威胁的德国以及三十年代纳粹占领的其他地区运了出来。
The history books eventually caught up with was, and perhaps the most notable was, this extremely modest, reticent man named Nicholas Winton, who organized the Kindertransport that I mentioned at the beginning of this interview, which transported about 10,000 Jewish children out of Nazi-threatened Nazi Germany and the other territories that in the '30s, the Nazis had conquered.
我妈妈就是通过儿童运输来到英国的。
And my mother came out on the Kindertransport.
尼古拉斯·温顿也不是犹太人。
Now, Nicholas Winton also was not Jewish.
后来，我妈妈被剑桥的一位女士收留了。
And then my mother was taken in by a lady in Cambridge.
她和她的妹妹被剑桥的一位女士收留，战争期间的大部分时间都是这位女士在照顾她们。
She and her sister were taken in by a lady in Cambridge who took care of them during much of the war years.
那个时代的英国，显然也有很多英国人持不同观点，不那么欢迎难民。
And Britain of that era, now there are obviously a whole bunch of Britons as well who had a different point of view and were less welcoming.
但我认为，从纳粹时期逃到英国的移民群体，对英国永远心怀感激。
But I think the émigré population from the Nazi period that wound up in Britain is forever grateful for Britain.
你要知道，在那个时代，世界上只有两种国家。
And you got to remember that at that era, there were only two kinds of countries.
一种是想把犹太人赶走的，另一种是不愿意接受任何犹太人的。
The one kind wanted to get rid of the Jews, and the other kind didn't want to accept any Jews.
而英国，尽管有些保留意见，在这方面是个很大的例外。
And Britain, with some caveats, was a big exception to that.
法国非常敌视。
France was very hostile.
西班牙也很敌视。
Spain was hostile.
整个欧洲大陆都极其敌视。
Continental Europe as a whole was extremely hostile.
当时情况非常艰难。
It was very difficult.
在1930年代的美国，反移民情绪非常强烈，不仅仅针对犹太人，而是普遍存在。
There was great anti-immigrant sentiment, not just for Jews, but writ large in the America of the 1930s.
所以，所有那些挺身而出的人，其中很多人并没有能力去救助这些不幸的人，我对他们感激不尽。
So all of these people who stepped forward, many of them without the means to rescue these hapless people, I feel incredibly indebted to them.
而你母亲几乎是战争爆发前几天才到的，我记得是这样。
And your mother literally arrived days, I think, before the war broke out.
就在战争爆发前不久。
Very shortly before war broke out.
而且她是你生命中一个非常引人入胜、非常重要的人物。
And she was a very intriguing and important character in your life.
你的母亲多丽丝，我想她15岁就辍学了。
Your mother, Doris, she had left school, I think, at 15.
这位女士2019年去世了，但她显然非常坚强、不屈不挠、有韧性，但也确实很难相处。
This is a lady who died in 2019, but she was obviously very formidable, defiant, resilient, but also really difficult.
我想知道，你能不能给我们讲讲，在一个这样的家庭里长大是什么感觉：父亲在大屠杀中失去了父母，非常聪明，但情感上有点疏离；母亲，你在书中写到她的言语暴力和悲观情绪等等。
And I wonder if you could give us a sense of what it was like to grow up in a household with this father who had lost his parents in the Holocaust and was very smart, but emotionally kind of detached, and this mother who you write about her verbal violence and her pessimism and the like.
当你在《外乡人》中写到你的家庭时，你一定开始明白，哦，那就是我成长的环境，那就是他们之所以成为那样的原因。
As you wrote about your family in Auslander, you must have started to understand, oh, that's the environment in which I grew up in, and that's why they were as they were.
当你现在回顾时，能不能给我们讲讲那个环境是什么样的，那种情感地带，你被抚养长大的那片风景？
Can you give us a sense of, as you look back now, what that environment was like, this sort of emotional territory, this landscape in which you were being reared?
正如你所说，我母亲实际上是乘着儿童运输列车抵达英国的。
As you said, my mother actually arrived in Britain on a Kindertransport.
她于1939年4月20日抵达英国，巧合的是，我父亲两年前也是在同月同日到达英国的。
She arrived in Britain on April the 20th, 1939, which coincidentally was the same month and date that my father had arrived in Britain two years earlier.
而那个日期的另一个更阴暗的巧合是，那天正好是希特勒的生日。
And the darker coincidence of that particular date is that it was Hitler's birthday.
我母亲的外祖父母在1939年战争爆发前三天离开了德国。
My mother's parents got out of Germany three days before war broke out in 1939.
所以我母亲比他们早到了几个月。
So my mother preceded them by a few months.
关于你问的那个问题，威廉，我一开始根本没打算写家庭回忆录。
And to address the question that you asked, William, I had not set out to write a family memoir at all.
我从来没想过这件事，但后来发生了三件事。
It was not what I ever thought about, but three things happened.
母亲在新冠疫情爆发前不久去世了。
Mother died shortly before the outbreak of COVID.
我姐姐清理了威尔士卡迪夫的房子，把她找到的文件、几本相册、护照、身份证件之类的东西都整理了出来。
My sister cleared out the house in Cardiff in Wales and put the documents and papers that she found, a few photograph albums, passports, ID cards, those sorts of things.
她把那些东西装进，我记得是四个纸箱，寄给了我，然后我开始翻看那些文件和纸张，而疫情给了我更多时间去做这件事。
She put them in, I think it was four cardboard cartons and shipped them to me, and I started sifting through that and through those papers, and COVID had given me a lot more time to indulge myself.
写这本书的过程中，又回到你问的那个问题，不仅仅是发现，因为我当然知道我父母的大致背景，但发现关于他们的所有细节，那些我没听过的、他们没告诉我的细节。
And part of writing the book, again, coming back to the question that you asked, was not just a discovery, because obviously I knew the broad arc of my parents' background, but discovering all the details about them, all the details that I hadn't heard, that they hadn't told me.
但同时也是一种收获，无论好坏，我明白了我是如何成为现在的我，很大程度上受你提到的那个影响，就是我成长的环境。
But then something of a benefit, understanding for good and for bad, how I became who I am, very much shaped by what you were mentioning, which was the atmosphere in which I grew up.
我毫不怀疑我父母是为我和我姐姐好。
And I have no doubt whatsoever that my parents wanted the best for me and my sister.
这一点毫无疑问。
No doubt about it whatsoever.
但他们被自己经历的一切深深伤害了，我觉得这对任何人来说都是自然的，如果你从小到大熟悉的那块地毯，每天踩在脚下的那块，被人粗暴而恶毒地抽走。
But they were heavily scarred by all the experiences of what they had gone through, which is, I think, natural for anybody who has had the rug on which they have grown up and which is familiar to them and on which they had trodden every day, pulled out rudely and wickedly from underneath their feet.
然后，当然，二战的恐怖，数千万人卷入其中，我们很多家人也丧生，这在他们心里留下了不可磨灭的印记。
And then, obviously, the horrors of World War II, in which tens of millions of people were caught up, and in which many of our family members perished, left an indelible mark on their psyche.
而且那还是1950年代、1960年代和1970年代的英国，那时候因为抑郁和严重焦虑去寻求心理帮助被认为是不体面的，是软弱的表现。
And this was also Britain of the 1950s and the Britain of the 1960s and 1970s, where seeking psychiatric help for depression and acute anxiety was considered beyond the pale and a sign of great weakness.
所以他们从来没有去探索过自己为什么会做某些事情。
So they never went on the journey exploring why they did certain things.
不过，尽管二战和之前发生的事情并不是家里日常谈论的话题。
But even though obviously World War II and what had come before were not subjects of daily conversation in the household.
但那种恐惧可能重演的感觉，以及如果发生过一次就可能再次发生的想法，笼罩着他们的整个生活，从未离开过他们。
The sense of the fact that horror could recur, and if it had happened once, it could happen again, colored their whole existence and never left them.
那种紧张、焦虑、对他人动机的怀疑，或者对一般人的不信任，伴随着这种背景下的情感氛围，很难用言语表达其带来的回响和震动。
And it's hard to convey the sort of reverberations and vibrations of that tenseness and that anxiety and that suspicion of the motives of others, or the suspicion of others in general, that accompanies that sort of background emotional tapestry.
我们稍作休息，听听今天的赞助商怎么说。
Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
在我二十多岁的大部分时间里，我对金钱的看法很简单。
For most of my 20s, my money story was simple.
赚得更多，其他事情自然就解决了。
Earn more and the rest takes care of itself.
我的收入确实增加了。
My income did go up.
我的支出也跟着涨了，只是我没注意到。
My spending went up right alongside it, though I just didn't notice.
我的储蓄率悄悄从30%降到了20%，直到Monarch把所有账户放在一个屏幕上，让我看到趋势，我才发现。这对一个整天分析别人资产负债表的人来说，有点扎心。
My savings rate had quietly slipped from 30% down to 20%, and I didn't catch it until Monarch put every account on one screen and showed me the trend, which stings a little for a guy who spends all day pulling apart someone else's balance sheet.
现在投资视图让我在一个地方看到整个投资组合，以及它相对标普500的实际表现。
And now the investment view shows me my whole portfolio in one place and how it's actually doing against the S&P 500.
当有大额消费要来的时候，我会先规划好，看看自己是否在正轨上，免得来不及调整。
And when a big purchase is coming, I map it out first and see whether I'm on track before it's too late to adjust.
用Monarch写下你自己的理财故事。
Write your own money story with Monarch.
在monarch.com使用代码WSB，第一年Monarch Core半价，只要50美元。
Use code WSB at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50.
也就是说，在monarch.com使用代码WSB，第一年享受五折优惠。
That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code WSB.
对在线交易感兴趣，但还没迈出第一步？
Curious about online trading but haven't taken the first step yet?
你不是一个人。
You're not alone.
而Plus500期货是一个很好的起点。
And Plus500 Futures is a great place to start.
期货市场变化很快，通过Plus500，你可以探索石油、黄金、标普500、比特币等热门资产。
The futures markets are moving fast, and with Plus500 you can explore popular assets like oil, gold, S&P 500, Bitcoin, and more.
从加密货币到大宗商品，总有事情在发生。
From crypto to commodities, there's always something happening.
这个平台非常容易上手，你可以直接在手机上随时交易。
The platform is super easy to use, so you can trade on the go right from your phone.
你只需100美元就能开始，马上投入其中。
You can get started with just $100 and jump into the action.
看到感兴趣的东西了吗？
See something interesting?
账户开通后，只需几次点击就能进行交易。
Once your account is open, you can trade it in just a couple of clicks.
如果你还没准备好，也可以用免费模拟账户练练手。
And if you're not quite ready yet, you can practice with a free demo account.
没有风险，也没有压力。
No risk, no pressure.
凭借20年的经验，Plus500让交易比以往任何时候都更容易上手。
With 20 years of experience, Plus500 makes trading more accessible than ever.
去plus500.com看看吧。
Check it out at plus500.com.
期货交易存在亏损风险，并非适合所有人。
Trading in futures involves risks of loss and is not suitable for everyone.
不是所有申请者都能通过审核。
Not all applicants will qualify.
Plus500，交易，加一点优势。
Plus500, it's trading with a plus.
每周我们都会在节目中分析一些公司，并问同一个问题：管理层真的在高效运营这家企业吗？
Every week we analyze companies on this show and ask the same question: Is management actually running this business efficiently?
这是目前大多数公司最诚实的答案。
Here's the honest answer for most companies right now.
那些领先的公司，正是那些把AI用在日常事务上的公司。
The ones pulling ahead are the ones putting AI to work on the everyday stuff.
这正是NetSuite Next的初衷。
That's exactly what NetSuite Next was built for.
NetSuite Next在你最需要的时候，及时呈现洞察。
NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them.
它让智能代理处理日常任务和问题，同时允许你用日常语言提出复杂问题，就像跟一位知识渊博的同事聊天一样。
It puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and it lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague.
但技术只是故事的一部分。
But technology is only part of the story.
AI也在重塑人们和团队协作的方式，而这种转变已经在进行中。
AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway.
今天，专家编写的商业指南就在你手中。
Expert-created business guide in your hands today.
这份指南叫《为智能体时代做好准备：AI如何改变日常工作》。
It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work.
现在你可以免费获取。
And right now it's yours absolutely free.
里面会告诉你，AI如何重塑整个组织的工作方式，以及如何让你的业务从中受益。
Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization and how to position your business to prosper from it.
我自己在用，你也应该试试。
I use this, and you should too.
如果你的营收至少达到七位数，就去netsuite.com/tip免费领取我们的商业指南《为智能体时代做好准备：AI如何改变日常工作》。
If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work at netsuite.com/tip.
这份指南在netsuite.com/tip免费提供。
The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/tip.
netsuite.com/tip。
netsuite.com/tip.
好了，我们回到节目。
All right, back to the show.
显然，这在某些方面对你来说是非常艰难的。
It was obviously hugely challenging in certain ways for you.
同时，如果当初你的父母更温暖、更关爱、情感上更可依靠，你很可能就不会有同样的那股劲，那种永远觉得自己在母亲面前不够好的感觉。
And at the same time, presumably, if your parents had been more warm and nurturing and more emotionally available, you might well not have had the same fire, this sense of never being able to be enough for your mother, for example.
我想知道，当你回顾那些早年时光，想到后来取得的成功，它在多大程度上无意识地为你铺平了成功之路，又在多大程度上让你不得不付出很多努力才能获得幸福、成为好父母之类的？
And I'm wondering, when you look back on those early years and you think about the success that you would achieve later, to what extent it unconsciously set you up for success, but to what extent maybe it also set you up to have to do quite a lot of work to be happy and to be a good parent and the like?
嗯，我想谨慎一点，因为我一直非常幸运，非常幸运。
Well, I want to be careful because I've been so lucky and I've been so fortunate.
我不想让这些话听起来像是在自怜。
I don't want any of this to come across as self-pity whatsoever.
不是自怜。
Not self-pity about this.
某种程度上，我显然非常幸运。
In a way, obviously I was very fortunate.
我成长在一个父母重视教育的家庭。
I grew up in a household where my parents valued education.
他们尽了自己能力范围内的一切努力来帮助我，就像我说的。
They did everything possible within their means to, as I said, to help me.
我也不希望这听起来像是在自怜，仅仅因为我是少数族裔的一员。
Nor do I want this to come across as self-pity for just happening to be the member of a minority.
完全不是这样。
Not at all.
我觉得能成为这两个群体的一员是很幸运的。
I feel fortunate to have been a member of both.
但我觉得你说得完全对，就像很多人一样，你读到今天关于虎妈的报道，我有很多亚裔美国朋友跟我讲他们母亲的故事，尤其是她们那种毫不放松的态度。
But I think you're absolutely right that like lots of people, you read about tiger moms today, and I have a lot of Asian American friends who regale me with tales of their mothers in particular being just absolutely unrelenting.
这些是第一代来自中国大陆的移民，或者来自印度的人，他们同样强调教育，而且孩子永远不够好。
These are first-generation immigrants from the mainland or people from India where it was the same sort of emphasis on education and with the children never being good enough.
所以我就是在这样的文化和环境中长大的。
So that was the culture and environment in which I grew up.
但我觉得你说得完全对。
But I think you're absolutely right.
这一切带来了两件事。
There are two things that came out of all of that.
一是我的父母经历了二战，虽然他们非常不喜欢别人用‘幸存者’这个词来形容他们，这个我们可以之后再聊，但既然他们活了下来，他们非常注重生存，这是第一位的。
One was the experience my parents had of getting through World War II And then having the, even though they took great exception of the word survivor being used in association with them, and we can talk about that if you want, but having survived that, they were very focused on survival, number one.
第二，我母亲有着非凡的毅力。
And then secondly, my mother had exceptional grit.
我觉得这两点都深深影响了我。
And I think both of those things were imprinted on me.
一是生存的需要，二是永不放弃。
One, the need to survive, and then the second about never giving up.
永远、永远不要放弃，即使你被拒绝，即使你尝试的事情前几次没有成功。
Never, ever giving up, even if you've been rejected, even if something that you've tried hasn't worked the first few times.
就是要有毅力、有耐力、有韧劲、有坚持，继续相信。
It's just to have the grit, the staying power, the tenacity, the persistence to continue to believe.
我昨晚在一个生日派对上遇到一个人，他碰巧和你一起在红杉资本工作过，我问他关于你的事，他对你评价很高。
I ran into someone at a birthday party last night who by chance had worked with you at Sequoia, and I was asking him, and he was very flattering about you.
但他形容你的一个词是‘永不停歇’。
But one word he used to describe you was relentless.
我上周研究你的时候，特别注意到一件有名的事：你让红杉的同事把‘我们只和下一笔投资一样好’印在名片背面。
And I was very struck when I was doing my research on you over the last week that there was this famous thing where you had asked your colleagues at Sequoia to print the phrase, "We're only as good as our next investment" on the back of their business cards.
所以看起来，那种永不停歇、驱动力、对颠覆的恐惧、对自满和傲慢的警惕，确实是你性格的核心。
And so it does seem like that sense of relentlessness, drive, slight paranoia about the fear of disruption and the danger of complacency and hubris.
这似乎是你性格中非常核心的部分。
That seems very central to your character.
是的，完全正确。
Yes, absolutely.
我在旧金山有一间不错的小私人办公室。
I have a nice little private office here in San Francisco.
我从来没有，也从未有过任何与红杉或我相关的公司或成功的装饰品。
I have and never have had any of the ornaments of any of the companies or successes with which Sequoia or I have been associated.
我从来没有在任何地方展示过它们。
I've never displayed them anywhere.
我办公室里没摆这些东西。
I haven't displayed them in my office.
家里也没摆，部分原因是，我觉得它们虽然是不错的小装饰，但没什么意义。
I haven't displayed them at home, partly because I think they're, I mean, they're nice little trappings, but they're irrelevant.
但这又回到了生存和坚韧的概念，以及如果你，用你的话说，哪怕松懈一刻，会发生什么。
But this comes back to the notion of surviving and grit and what happens if you, to use your word, relent for a single moment.
无论你在追求什么，可能是学术研究，也可能是想成为优秀的体育明星。
If you're in any sort of pursuit, you could be pursuing academic studies, you could be seeking to be a fine sporting star.
你可能在经营一家大公司，或者领导一家投资公司。
You could be running a large company or heading an investment firm.
你会发现，这些组织的风气和基调是由高层设定的，它们会逐渐反映出领导者的个性。
You'll find that the tone and tenor of those organizations is set from the top, and they come to reflect the character of the individual who is there.
你从做过的所有采访里都知道这一点。
You know it from all the interviews that you've done.
我们都明白，尤其是那些读过关于特定公司形成、成长甚至崩溃的书籍的人，领导者设定基调的重要性。
We all know it, particularly people who've read books about the formation and the growth and maybe the collapse of particular companies, the importance of the leader setting the tone.
你上的是那种比较普通的高中，卡迪夫的公立学校，然后居然考上了牛津的基督教堂学院，这学院在很多方面都是牛津最顶尖、最有名望的学院之一。
You went to this relatively ordinary high school, state school in Cardiff, and then managed to win a place at Christchurch College at Oxford, which is in many ways the poshest and most prestigious of Oxford colleges.
而且我觉得你那一届可能就你一个人去了牛津。
And I think you were probably the only student in your year to go to Oxford.
我想了解一下，你大概19岁离开威尔士，之后就再也没真正回去过，然后去了牛津，进入这个新世界，被一下子抛进这个新世界，进入一个以历史闻名的学院，那里有像休·特雷弗-罗珀爵士这样的教授。这段经历对你来说是什么样的？
And I wonder if I could get a sense of what that experience of leaving Wales around the time you turned 19 and never really coming back and going to Oxford was like going into this new world, being vaulted into this new world, into a college that was particularly famous for history, having had professors like Sir Hugh Trevor-Roper and the like.
那一定是你人生中一个非常关键的转折期。
And it must have been a very transformative period for you.
而且可能在某些方面，你在牛津学到的如何提炼信息、如何收集信息、如何学习，这些技能后来对你作为投资者来说变得极其重要。
And presumably in some ways, the things that you learned at Oxford about how to distill information, how to gather information, how to learn would become hugely important to you later as an investor.
有几件事。
Several things.
首先，回到60年代，旅行比现在难多了。
First of all, travel back in the '60s was a lot harder than it is today.
在英国，显然没有美国那种高速公路，而且当时哪里都没有廉价机票。
In Britain, there weren't the equivalent of American freeways, obviously, and there was no low-cost airfare anywhere.
我父母已经尽了最大的努力。
My parents had done their very best.
他们有一辆小露营车，带我和妹妹去欧洲大陆，我们去过几次。
They had a little camper van to take my sister and myself to continental Europe, and we did that a few times.
但大多数时候，加的夫是我生活的中心。
But for the most part, Cardiff was central to my existence.
我想在去牛津之前，我可能去过伦敦。
I think I'd been to London maybe before I went to Oxford.
我想我可能去过伦敦两次。
I think I'd been to London maybe twice.
差不多就这样。
That was about it.
所以从威尔士到牛津，在地理上是一个很大的跨越。
So going from Wales to Oxford was a big leap geographically.
当然，距离并不远，但在其他方面却是一个很大的跨越。
Obviously, it isn't very far, but it was a big leap in different ways.
第一点就是我突然被扔进的那个环境。
Number one was the milieu into which I was catapulted.
而且这已经是很久以前的事了。
And this is a long time ago now.
这已经是五十多年前了，所以学院变化非常大。
This is more than 50 years ago, so the colleges have changed tremendously.
但那时候是纯男生的，或者说都是男孩、青少年，只有男生。
But this was men only, or boys, teenagers, men only.
午夜有宵禁，学院大门会关上，防止异性进来。
Curfews at midnight, where the college gates were shut to prevent the invasion of the other sex.
所以这是其中的一个方面。
So that was one aspect of it.
第二个方面是，那时候基督教堂学院的招生情况和现在不一样。
The second aspect was the intake at Christchurch back then was different to what it is today.
当时有很多名额是留给那些在美国叫私立学校、但在英国叫公学的学校的。
So there were a lot of places earmarked for what in America are private schools, but what in Britain they call public schools.
所谓的公学，就是像伊顿、拉格比、圣保罗、威斯敏斯特这些学校，还有很多其他的。
So the public schools being places like Eton and Rugby and St. Paul's and Westminster and a bunch of others.
所以这些到牛津的学生，他们一到那儿就有认识的人，要么是以前一起上学的，要么是去基督教堂学院时认识的，或者他们的朋友在其他牛津学院。
So all of these students who arrived at Oxford, they immediately had people that they knew who they'd been to school with, or if they went to Christchurch, they knew them from, or they had their pals were at other Oxford colleges.
所以他们天生就有这样一个社交圈子，而对我来说，这个圈子根本不存在。
So they had this social circle that for them, that was built in, that was nonexistent for me.
我在那儿一个人都不认识。
I didn't know anybody else there.
所以在这个环境里，我感觉特别不自在，因为每天晚上都有个公学出身的学生用拉丁文念祷告词，带着那种非常英式的、上层阶级的演讲腔调。
So there was that aspect of feeling pretty strange in this environment where the graces were said every night in Latin by a public school boy with a very British or English oratorical, higher upper class accent.
这看起来非常奇怪。
It seemed very strange.
而且，基督教堂学院是个大教堂学院，所以校园里有一座大教堂。
And this was also, Christchurch is a cathedral school, so it's got a cathedral in its grounds.
所以那是一个非常新教的地方。
So it was a highly Protestant establishment.
然后显然还有导师制，我当时没意识到，但后来才明白，在牛津的三年里，我得到了一对一辅导的所有好处，大概有六位不同的导师。回想起来，我当时没意识到，这为我后来的生活打下了多么好的基础，无论是作为记者还是投资者。
And then obviously there was the tutorial system, which I only came to recognize later all of the benefits I got from one-on-one tuition with half of them over the course of my three years at Oxford, with probably half a dozen different tutors, and how well, in retrospect, I didn't realize it at the time, that set me up for life, both as a journalist and as an investor.
主要是那种快速掌握新课题并弄懂它的能力吗？
Is it mainly this capacity to tackle a new subject and get your hands around it?
我上的是奥里尔学院，我爸爸上的是基督教堂学院，但我上的是奥里尔，就在你们隔壁，我学的是英国文学。
I went to Oriel just, my dad went to Christchurch, but I was at Oriel, which was right next door to you, and I studied English literature.
对我来说，即使过了四十多年，我仍然觉得最大的好处是，你每周都被迫去研究一个你完全不了解的新课题，去博德利图书馆阅读，然后试着弄明白，再试着提炼信息。
And for me, still, I find 40 something years later, the great benefit is that you were forced every week to go tackle a new subject that you knew nothing about, and go read in the Bodleian Library and the like and just try to figure it out and then try to distill information.
在某种程度上，这和现在人工智能在我们身上培养的能力恰恰相反。
And in a way, it's so much the opposite of what AI is developing in us now.
你说得完全对。
You're exactly right.
我觉得作为投资者，我的生活得到了极大的帮助。
And I felt my life as an investor was helped immeasurably.
就像我说的，尽管我当时在牛津和后来在《时代》杂志做记者时并没有意识到这一点。
As I said, even though I didn't realize it by my time at Oxford and then my time as a journalist at Time magazine.
对于不熟悉牛津导师制的观众或听众，我先简单介绍一下背景。
And for viewers or for listeners who are not familiar with the tutorial system at Oxford, a little bit of context.
学生每周去见他的导师，那时候是这样，导师会提出一个问题，然后指定一些书，建议你去读，准备写一篇大概两千到三千字的文章，我记不太清了，来回答那个问题。
A student would go and visit his, back then, tutor and have a meeting once a week, and the tutor would pose a question and prescribe a number of books that he suggested you read in preparation for writing an essay of maybe 2,000 or 3,000 words, I forget, on addressing the question.
就像你说的，那些文章都是关于你完全不了解的问题，挑战就在于尽量从指定的书里，还有可能碰到的其他资料中吸收尽可能多的信息，然后自己消化理解。
And as you said, those essays were set about questions that you, I didn't know anything about, and the challenge was to try and absorb as much information as possible from the books that had been prescribed and perhaps other stuff that you tripped across, and then try to make sense of it in your own mind.
然后基于不完整的信息，基于你一周开始时对那个话题一无所知的事实，构建一个合理的论证来回答提出的问题。
And then construct a plausible argument for the answer to the question that had been posed, based on imperfect information, based on the fact that at the beginning of the week that you knew nothing about the topic at hand.
然后回到导师那里，那时候是当面把文章读出来，导师会给出他的回应，评价你答案的优点和缺点。
And then coming back to, in those days, read the essay out loud to the tutor, who would then give you his responses and assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the answer.
对我来说，如果快进几年，想想我在《时代》杂志的工作，那非常相似。
For me, if I fast-forwarded a couple of years and think about my life at Time magazine, it was very much the same.
我是一名综合报道记者。
I was a general assignment reporter.
每周都会有一个新的报道任务，或者我需要去深入研究的题材，而且几乎总是关于我完全不了解的话题、主题或组织。
Every week, there'd be a new story that would be assigned or I would need to dive into, invariably on a topic or subject or organization that I knew nothing about.
而且过程完全一样。
And it was the exact same process.
虽然没有指定的书要读，但取而代之的是要打电话找人、安排采访，然后试着把与故事相关的信息拼凑起来，再综合起来，提炼成一篇能回答之前那个主题的报道。
Although there weren't prescribed books to read, but instead of which there were people to call and trying to piece and interviews to have and to make and try to piece together the information germane to the story, and then come up with a synthesis of it and try to distill it in a story that addressed the topic previously.
在这两种情况下，无论是牛津的论文还是《时代》杂志的报道，都是基于不完整的信息。
And in both cases, the essay at Oxford, the story at Time, both of them were based on imperfect information.
你总是可以做更多的研究，总是可以跟更多的人交谈。
You could always do more research, you could always talk to more people.
但在某个时刻，你必须根据你收集到的不完整信息，坐下来写一篇论文或一篇报道。
But at some point, based on the imperfect information that you gathered and collected, you had to sit down and write an essay or write a story.
在我看来，这和风险投资行业非常相似。如果你投资一家小公司，投资那些你并不真正了解的人，通常是在一个你不太熟悉的新领域，你永远不可能在做出投资决定之前获得完美的信息。
And in my mind, that is very similar to the venture business, where if you're investing in a small company, in people that you don't really know, usually in a field that is new that you don't really come on, you're never going to get, you will never wind up with perfect information before you have to make an investment decision.
而由于我们刚才讨论的那些原因，我从来没有为此感到特别困扰。
And I never really struggled with that for the reasons that we just talked about.
至少我的经验是，有工程背景的人，虽然他们中很多人是才华横溢、非常出色的投资者，但他们在这方面总是比我更纠结。他们总是渴望得到某条信息，然后才能做出决定。
My experience, anyway, is that people with engineering backgrounds, and many of them are brilliant and spectacular investors, but they always had much more of a struggle with it than did I. There was always this piece of information that they were yearning for before they could make a decision about something.
我从那种不完美的感觉中解脱出来了。
And I was liberated from that sense of imperfection.
我很高兴能明白我们永远不会有完美的信息，而不完美正是我们打交道的东西。
I was quite happy understanding that we're never going to have perfect information, and imperfection is what we traffic in.
我想更详细地聊聊你在《时代》杂志的那段经历，因为那真的很重要，也很有塑造性。
I want to talk in more detail about your time at Time magazine, because it's really important, really formative.
而且你知道，我们职业生涯中有个有趣的交集，我也是从牛津出来，后来也去了《时代》杂志。
And as you know, in one of the odd overlaps in our career, I also went from Oxford and later I ended up being at Time magazine.
但我也很好奇你进入《时代》杂志的旅程，因为你搬到美国，我记得是1976年，当时你才22岁，去宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院读MBA，然后从那里去了《时代》杂志。
But I'm curious also about the journey that took you To Time because you moved to the US, I think in 1976 as a 22-year-old kid to get your MBA at Wharton at the University of Pennsylvania, and went from there to Time magazine.
但你从沃顿到《时代》的这条路，竟然和伟大的菲利普·罗斯有关。
But your path from Wharton to Time, oddly involved the great Philip Roth.
跟我们讲讲这是怎么发生的吧，因为这真是又奇怪又不太可能的事情。
Tell us how this happened because it's such a strange and unlikely turn of events.
嗯，我们刚才还在聊陌生人的善意。
Well, we were talking minutes ago about the kindness of strangers.
所以我其实从来没打算去读商学院。
So I never really intended to go to business school.
事情是这样的，我赢得了一笔奖学金，一笔非常非常慷慨的奖学金，是由一个叫特雷尔家族资助的，他们是杜邦家族的后裔，跟宾夕法尼亚大学有关。
What had happened was I won a scholarship, a very, very generous scholarship financed by a family called the Turrells, who were descendants of the Du Ponts that was associated with the University of Pennsylvania.
我当时去那儿是想读历史硕士的。
And I had gone there with the idea of doing a history master's degree.
我上了几个星期的历史课，跟我在牛津习惯的相比，这些课显得太差劲、太弱了，让我很绝望。
And I went to the history classes for a couple of weeks, and compared to what I'd been used to at Oxford, these seemed so lame and so weak that I despaired.
而且历史硕士只有一年制。
And the history master's was also only a one-year course.
所以我想：“我在这儿一年都熬不下去，但这笔奖学金又这么慷慨。”
So I thought, "I just can't stick it out for a year here, but this scholarship is so wonderfully generous."
显然，那时候商学院是两年制的。
And obviously the business school at that point was a two-year course.
所以我就申请转到商学院，结果被录取了。
And so I applied for a transfer to the business school and got into the business school.
说实话，我完全不适合去商学院。
Now, I was hopelessly unsuited to go to the business school.
我当时才22岁。
I was 22 years old.
商学院里大多数人，应该说所有人，都比我大好几岁。
Most of the people, all of the people who were at business school were several years older than me.
他们都有工作经验。
They all had work experience.
他们为了读完商学院，都背了一屁股债。
They were all up to their eyeballs in debt in order to be able to get through it.
而且我一点都不喜欢沃顿。
And I didn't like Wharton at all.
这反映的是我自己的问题，不是学校的问题。
It's a reflection on me, not the school.
我就是能力不足，而且对他们教的东西真的提不起兴趣。
I was just ill-equipped and really uninterested in what it was that they had on offer.
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所以回到菲利普·罗斯是怎么进入我生活的这个话题，作为MBA学生，你可以选一些选修课，我尽可能多地选了英语文学方向的课程。
So to revert to how Philip Roth came into my life, there were a series of elective courses that you could do as an MBA student, and I signed up for as many in the English literature area as I possibly could.
结果你猜怎么着，我简直不敢相信自己这么幸运。
And lo and behold, I couldn't believe my good fortune.
20世纪美国文学界的一位巨匠，我在英国时如饥似渴地读他的书，不是别人，正是菲利普·罗斯，他写了《波特诺伊的怨诉》，大家都知道，或者说以前大家都知道这本书，他当时在宾大教一个小型研讨课。
One of the giants of American letters of the 20th century, a fellow whose books I devoured when I was in Britain, none other than Philip Roth, author of, obviously everybody knows, well, people used to know, Portnoy's Complaint, was teaching a small seminar class at Penn.
我报了那门课。
And I signed up for that class.
我上了两次。
I did it twice.
他第二次教的是不同的书，我在课上玩得非常开心。
He was teaching different books in the subsequent class and had a wickedly wonderful time in it.
后来到了该申请《时代》杂志工作的时候，我需要推荐人，我就去找菲利普要推荐信，没想到他会答应。
And then when it was time to approach Time for a job, and I needed references, I asked Philip for a reference, not expecting him to say that he would give me one.
他说他很乐意帮我写。
And he said he would be happy to do so.
我说：“非常感谢。
I said, "Thank you very much.
如果你能把它打出来，我就去拿一份……”
And if you were just to type it out, I'll go and get a..."
那时候我记得叫影印件或者复印机复印的那种。
I think the term in those days was a photo stat or a Xerox of it.
他说：“不用了。
He said, "No need.
我用复写纸。”
I use carbon paper."
所以，我交给《时代》的推荐信里，就有一封来自这位文学巨匠菲利普·罗斯。
And so among the references that I turned to Time was one from this distinguished man of letters, Philip Roth.
后来，有意思的是，他又通过我们在纽约的一个好朋友回到了我们的生活中。
And then later on, in an odd way, he came back into our lives through one of our closest friends in New York.
所以多年后，我们和一群朋友一起过感恩节，菲利普也在其中，这真是个愉快的巧合。
So there was then this happy coincidence many years later of us for several years spending Thanksgiving with a group of friends of whom Philip was one.
我非常乐意把剩下的采访时间都用来跟你聊菲利普·罗斯，我特别崇拜他，我觉得《萨巴斯的剧院》是二十世纪最伟大的小说之一。
I could very happily spend the rest of the interview talking to you about Philip Roth, who I adore, and I think Sabbath's Theater is one of the great novels of the 20th century.
天哪，那本书真是太棒了。
Oh, man, it is just fantastic.
我去了他的八十岁生日派对，他在纽瓦克公共图书馆办的，因为他是在纽瓦克长大的。
I went to his 80th birthday party, which he held in the Newark Public Library because he'd grown up in Newark.
派对一开始，纽瓦克的一支高中军乐队沿着图书馆礼堂的过道列队行进。
And it began with a high school Newark marching band marching down the aisle of this auditorium in the Newark Public Library.
然后有一大堆人朗读了他的作品……
And then there were readings from a whole variety of...
我记得其中一位朗读的作家是埃德娜·奥布莱恩，菲利普当时穿着黑色衣服坐在第一排。
And Edna O'Brien is one of the writers that I remember who read there, and Philip was sitting dressed in black in the front row.
晚会最后，他坐在一张桌子后面，朗读了你刚才提到的那本书《萨巴斯的剧院》的节选，那本书真是又刻薄又好笑。
And then to conclude the evening, he sat behind a table and read an excerpt from the book that you just mentioned, Sabbath's Theater, which is a wickedly funny book.
而且读起来让人心碎、让人不齿、让人堕落，还有各种让人难受的感觉。
And devastating and deplorable and decadent and all the other, and distressing all.
我觉得挺有意思的，但我得忍住不继续深入聊这个，不然我们会跑题跑得太远。
It's interesting to me, I have to resist going further into this because I'll get us so sidetracked.
不过确实，他是个非常了不起的作家。
But yeah, he's an extraordinary writer.
所以你在伟大的菲利普·罗斯的帮助下，最终去了《时代》杂志，从1979年到1984年，你在那里担任旧金山分社社长，报道了微软和苹果这些公司早期的故事。
So you end up at Time with the help of the great Philip Roth, and you end up there from, I think 1979 to '84, working as the San Francisco bureau chief, covering companies like Microsoft and Apple in their infancy.
而我是2001年到2008年在《时代》工作，所以是完全不同的时代。
And I worked at Time from 2001 to 2008, so a very different era.
但过去几天我像掉进兔子洞一样，翻看了你以前为《时代》写的一些报道。
But I fell down this rabbit hole over the last couple of days and was reading some of your old stories for Time.
我特别被你对比尔·盖茨的报道打动，先是1981年那篇短报道，当时盖茨大概24岁，然后更重要的是一篇1984年的特写，叫《硬核技术迷》。
And I was really struck by your coverage of Bill Gates, first in a shorter 1981 story when Gates was about 24 years old, and then much more significantly in a 1984 profile called A Hardcore Technoid.
从某种意义上说，那是一个非常重要的时期，因为那是你通过他，还有后来你写过的史蒂夫·乔布斯，来认识这一代非凡的开拓性创始人的开始，我们几分钟后还会再聊乔布斯。
And in a way, it's a really important period because it's your introduction through him and then through Steve Jobs, who you also wrote about, who we'll talk about more in a few minutes.
那是你接触这一代杰出先驱创始人的开始，而这很大程度上也引领了你后来在红杉资本的职业生涯。
It's your introduction to this generation of extraordinary trailblazing founders, and which very much will lead us to your career at Sequoia.
所以我想知道，回顾你早期采访比尔·盖茨的经历，你能不能给我们讲讲当时的情况，尤其是你被他开车送到机场的那个精彩故事。
So I wondered if looking back on your experiences of interviewing Bill Gates back in those early days If you could just give us a sense of what it was like, not least your extraordinary story of being driven to the airport by him.
我刚进《时代》杂志的时候，并不是在旧金山开始的。
When I started at Time, I didn't start in San Francisco.
我最初是在底特律当记者，然后在洛杉矶待了大约一年。
I started as a correspondent in Detroit and then spent a year or so in Los Angeles.
我在底特律待了一年，在洛杉矶也差不多一年，然后才来到旧金山。
I spent a year in Detroit and around a year in Los Angeles, and then came to San Francisco.
考虑到后来发生的一切，我觉得我写他的经历，以及后来和一位《时代》同事合著一本书，书的主角是李·艾柯卡，现在回想起来，那可能是我投资教育中比表面上看起来更重要的一部分。
And given everything that came later, I think my experience in writing about him, and then with a colleague from Time writing a book where he was the central character, Lee Iacocca, actually, as I look back anyway, is a more important part of my investment education than may seem obvious on the surface.
不过，我最后还是到了旧金山。
But, so I wound up in San Francisco.
当时我对硅谷一无所知。
I knew nothing about Silicon Valley whatsoever.
我虽然知道一点，但我真的很不喜欢住在洛杉矶，特别想离开那里，于是申请调到旧金山，杂志社也爽快地答应了。
I knew a little bit about it, but I really had disliked living in Los Angeles and really wanted to get out of there and asked for a transfer to San Francisco, and the magazine kindly permitted me to do that.
而且80年代初的旧金山和现在很不一样，尤其是在科技公司方面。
And then San Francisco was very different in the early '80s to what it is today when it comes to technology companies.
今天开车去办公室，旧金山的每辆公交车、每个广告牌上都贴满了AI广告。
Today, driving down to the office today, every single bus in San Francisco, every billboard is plastered with AI advertisement.
但在80年代初，旧金山根本不是科技中心。
Back in the early '80s, San Francisco was not a center of technology whatsoever.
旧金山当时的重要公司是像雪佛龙、美国银行、富国银行和麦克森这样的老牌公司。
The companies of significance in San Francisco were companies like Chevron and Bank of America and Wells Fargo and McKesson, and old state companies.
最年轻的公司就是嘉信理财了。
The youngest company of any kind was the Charles Schwab company.
所以所有充满活力的新公司都在旧金山南边的硅谷。
So all of the interest in vibrant new companies was south of San Francisco and Silicon Valley.
然后我们还有一个例外，就是西北边的微软。
And then we had this outlier, obviously up in the northwest called Microsoft.
我当时完全不知道。
And I had no idea.
在卡迪夫长大，去牛津读书，我认识的人里没有谁创办过公司，更别提想到年轻人能创业这回事了。
Growing up in Cardiff, going to Oxford, I didn't know anybody who started a company, let alone the idea that a young person or young people could start a company.
这对我来说完全是新鲜事，超出我的理解范围。
This was utterly new to me, beyond my comprehension.
我从来没想过那些创办公司的人。
I'd never thought about people who started companies.
然后，显然，我的时机太巧了。
And then, obviously, my timing was so fortuitous.
如果我早五年到，或者晚五年到，一切都会大不相同。
If I'd arrived five years earlier, if I'd arrived five years later, it all would've been very different.
但我不知道具体是什么时候。
But I don't know when.
我觉得史蒂夫·乔布斯是55年出生的。
I think Steve Jobs was born in '55.
我想比尔大概也是55年左右出生的。
I think Bill may have been born in '55 or so.
所以我们碰巧都是同龄人，只不过我的背景显然和他们两个非常不同。
So we were weirdly all the same age, except I came from a very different background, obviously, to the two of them.
但我觉得我们年龄相仿这一点，可能稍微有点优势。
But I think the contemporaneous nature of our age may have been a little bit of an advantage.
我绝对没有把自己和他们相提并论，哪怕一秒钟都没有。
I'm not putting myself for even the slightest moment comparing that.
我和他们唯一的共同点就是年龄差不多。
The only thing I had in common with them was I was really roughly the same age.
我觉得这不完全对。
I think that's not entirely true.
我觉得你有一种狂热。
I think you had a fanaticism.
你后来会表现出一种狂热。
That you would turn out later to have a fanaticism.
我读你的故事时，特别是1984年那篇关于比尔·盖茨的报道，最打动我的就是这个。
I think that in reading your story, the 1984 profile of Bill Gates, that's what really came through to me.
开头有一段很棒的描写，你说他在西雅图塔科马国际机场等飞机时，看起来像个营养不良的研究生。
There's a lovely description at the start where you say he looks like an undernourished grad student as he waits for his plane at Seattle Tacoma International Airport.
但接着你描述了一个非常棒的肖像，就是一个极度专注、近乎狂热的人。
But then you just describe, there's this really lovely portrait of just a fanatically focused guy.
而且我——
And I-
对，但是——
Yeah, but-
我想知道你能不能谈谈这个。
I wonder if you could talk about that.
因为那一点真的很突出。
Because that really comes through.
比尔在智力上以及其他所有层面上，都和我这个小人物完全不在一个星系，我得告诉你。
Bill intellectually and on every other level occupies a very different place in the galaxy to little me, I got to tell you.
所以我们接下来会聊到这些。
So we'll get to all of this.
是的。
Yes.
让我带你回到你提出的那个问题，比尔·盖茨，大约在1982年、83年。
Let me take you back to the question you posed, Bill Gates, circa 1982, '83.
这算是一个有点奇怪的回忆。
So this is a sort of an odd recollection.
这差不多是同一时期的事，所以你得把一切都放在当时的背景下来看。
This was all about the same time, so you've got to put everything here in perspective.
我当时参加了一个史蒂夫·乔布斯为他在苹果一起工作的一群人举办的场外会议。
I had been at an offsite that Steve Jobs had hosted for a group of people he was working with at Apple.
某天晚上的一位嘉宾演讲者是一位名叫本·罗森的先生，他是一位早期的风险投资家，一个非常好的人，非常遗憾的是，他在几周前去世了，享年90多岁。
And a guest speaker one evening was a gentleman called Ben Rosen, who was an early venture capitalist, a wonderful human being, and who very sadly died just a few weeks ago in his early 90s.
史蒂夫问本：“本，你觉得还要多久才会有一家个人电脑软件公司的收入突破一百万？”
And Steve had asked Ben, "How long do you think it will be, Ben, before there's a personal computer software company that crosses one million?"
本停顿了一下，想了想说：“嗯，这需要一些时间。”
And Ben paused and thought, "Well, it's going to take some time."
当时最接近那个百万美元门槛的公司，就是西北边那家叫微软的公司。
The company then closest to that magical million-dollar threshold was this company called Microsoft up in the northwest.
所以我就去那儿做了一篇关于微软和比尔的报道。
So I went up to do a story about Microsoft and a story about Bill.
我和他待在一起的时间，远没有和史蒂夫·乔布斯在一起的时间多。
And I didn't spend anywhere near as much time with him as I did with Steve Jobs.
我和史蒂夫·乔布斯在一起的时间很多。
I spent a lot of time with Steve Jobs.
但他就那样在太平洋西北地区经营着他的公司，我也得以一窥那个世界。
But there he was in the Pacific Northwest with his company, and I got an introduction to that world.
众所周知，比尔显然是在太平洋西北地区长大的。
Bill obviously had grown up in the Pacific Northwest, as is well-known.
我记得微软公司最初成立时，它的第一个家好像是在新墨西哥州的阿尔伯克基。
I think the company Microsoft had actually been formed, its first home, I think, was in Albuquerque, in New Mexico.
后来比尔看着美国地图，琢磨着从地理位置上看，把微软放在哪里最好，最后选定了达拉斯，因为那里的航班四通八达，是最方便的地方。
And then Bill had looked at a map of the United States trying to figure out where geographically the best place would be to locate Microsoft, and had landed on Dallas because of airplane connectivity all over the place, and that this was the easiest place to be.
但后来他又改变了主意，决定把微软设在西北地区。
And then he had second thoughts about that and decided that he wanted to establish Microsoft in the Northwest.
很大一部分原因是那里的天气很糟糕，不像硅谷那样阳光明媚。
Big part of the reason being because the weather was so bad, and that unlike Silicon Valley, the sun didn't shine all that often.
外部诱惑少得多，不会分散工程师们的注意力。
There were far fewer external attractions to divert the interests of his engineers.
这让我们第一次看到，比尔是多么想把他生命中的每一分每一秒都榨干。
And that's a first glimpse into how much Bill wanted to squeeze out of every single minute of every day in his existence.
我觉得，你去看看，旧金山这里离我现在所在的地方不到一英里，就有一些创始人，他们现在年纪和比尔当年差不多，行为举止也和他几十年前一模一样。
And I think, you go and see, there's some founders here in San Francisco within a mile of where I am today, who are of a similar age today, and who behave exactly like Bill did decades ago.
所以，正如你所说，他疯狂地专注于确保微软作为个人电脑软件制造商能够蓬勃发展。
And so, as you said, he was maniacally focused on ensuring that Microsoft would flourish as a maker of personal computer software.
因此，他消除了生活中的每一个干扰。
And so he eliminated every single distraction from his life.
我想他选的公寓离微软的第一个总部尽可能近。
I think he chose an apartment that was as close as possible to the first Microsoft headquarters.
我觉得他那时候根本没有女朋友。
I don't think there was a girlfriend in his life at that moment.
他每天每时每刻都在想着怎么把微软做得更好。
Every single moment of the day, he was enveloped in making Microsoft better.
有两件事让我印象特别深刻——他非常吝惜把时间花在微软以外的任何事情上，他觉得那些都是次要的，包括接受《时代》杂志或其他媒体的采访。
And the two things that stand out to me-- and so he was very jealous of allocating any time to anything else outside of Microsoft that he considered secondary, including interviews with reporters from Time magazine or elsewhere.
但让我印象最深的两件事，其中一件是我后来才知道的，就是他把电视的调谐器拆掉了，这样屏幕上只能播放他感兴趣的教学录像带。
But the two things that stood out for me were, well, one I learned about later, was that he had taken the tuner out of his television so that the only thing he could watch on the screen were instructional videotapes about topics that were of interest to him.
弗里曼·戴森讲数学或物理之类的，他就像一块巨大的海绵，对知识充满渴望，好奇心特别强。
Freeman Dyson lecturing on some form of mathematics or physics or things that he was such a great sponge for knowledge and had such enormous curiosity.
但我想你提到的那件事是，我们采访结束后，我们俩都要飞回去——我是飞回旧金山，而他要去和英特尔开会，见安迪·格鲁夫。
But I think the thing that you were referencing was after we finished our interview, we were both flying back to, or I was flying back to San Francisco, and he had a meeting with Intel, and with Andy Grove.
我上了他的车，他顺路捎我一程，那是一辆奔驰轿车，里面没有收音机。
And I got into the car, and he offered me a ride, and he had this Mercedes sedan, and there was no radio in it.
仪表盘上有个大洞，看起来就像收音机被从车上撬走了一样。
There was a gaping hole in the dashboard, which looked just like every gaping hole in the dashboard of a radio that had been ripped off from a car.
所以我说：“比尔，发生什么事了？”
So I said, "Bill, what happened?
“你的车怎么被偷了？”
Where'd you get ripped off?"
他说：“我没被偷。”
And he said, "I didn't get ripped off.
“是我让人拆掉的。”
I had it removed."
“你为什么让人拆掉它？”
"Why did you have it removed?"
“嗯，我在车里，从公寓到办公室，再从办公室到机场。”
"Well, I'm in the car between my apartment and the office, and then between the office and the airport.
“我不想有个收音机，一打开就让我分心，因为我在听某个节目，那会让我从微软上分心。”
And I don't want to have a radio that I can switch on that takes my mind away, because I'm listening to some program, that takes my mind away from Microsoft."
我觉得这个故事应该被收录进牛津英语词典，作为‘痴迷’这个词的定义。
And I thought, maybe that story should be a definition of the word obsession in the Oxford English Dictionary.
我们快速休息一下，听听今天的赞助商怎么说。
Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
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Curious about online trading but haven't taken the first step yet?
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You're not alone.
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And Plus500 Futures is a great place to start.
期货市场变化很快，通过Plus500，你可以探索石油、黄金、标普500、比特币等热门资产。
The futures markets are moving fast, and with Plus500, you can explore popular assets like oil, gold, S&P 500, Bitcoin, and more.
从加密货币到大宗商品，总有新鲜事发生。
From crypto to commodities, there's always something happening.
这个平台操作非常简单，你可以直接在手机上随时交易。
The platform is super easy to use, so you can trade on the go right from your phone.
只需100美元就能开始，马上参与其中。
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Once your account is open, you can trade it in just a couple of clicks.
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And if you're not quite ready yet, you can practice with a free demo account.
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No risk, no pressure.
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去plus500.com看看吧。
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期货交易存在亏损风险，并非适合所有人。
Trading in futures involves risks of loss and is not suitable for everyone.
并非所有申请者都能通过审核。
Not all applicants will qualify.
Plus500，交易，就是这么加分。
Plus500, it's trading with a plus.
每周我们都会在节目里分析一些公司，并问同一个问题：管理层真的在高效运营这家公司吗？
Every week, we analyze companies on this show and ask the same question: Is management actually running this business efficiently?
现在，大多数公司的诚实答案是这样的。
Here's the honest answer for most companies right now.
那些脱颖而出的公司，都是把AI用在日常事务上的。
The ones pulling ahead are the ones putting AI to work on the everyday stuff.
这正是NetSuite Next的用武之地。
That's exactly what NetSuite Next was built for.
NetSuite Next在你最需要的时候，精准地呈现洞察。
NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them.
它让智能代理处理日常任务和问题，还能让你用日常语言提出复杂问题，就像跟一位懂行的同事聊天一样。
It puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and it lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague.
但技术只是故事的一部分。
But technology is only part of the story.
人工智能也在改变人们和团队的合作方式，而这种转变已经在进行中。
AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway.
今天你手里拿到的是一份专家制作的商业指南。
Expert created business guide in your hands today.
它的名字叫《为智能体时代做好准备：人工智能如何改变日常工作》。
It's called "Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work."
现在，你可以完全免费获得它。
And right now, it's yours absolutely free.
在指南中，你会发现人工智能如何重塑整个组织的工作方式，以及如何让你的企业从中受益。
Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.
我自己也在用这个，你也应该试试。
I use this, and you should too.
如果你的年收入至少达到七位数，就前往 netsuite.com/tip 获取我们的免费商业指南《为智能体时代做好准备：人工智能如何改变日常工作》。
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这份指南在 netsuite.com/tip 免费提供。
The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/tip.
Netsuite.com/tip。
Netsuite.com/tip.
今年九月，我去了纽约参加“内在价值”会议。
This September, I was in New York for the Intrinsic Value conference.
演讲很精彩，但我一直在想的是会议之外发生的事情。
The talks were great, but what I kept thinking about is what happened around them.
周五晚上，我们大约二十个人挤在时代广场附近一家家庭式意大利餐厅的长桌旁。
On Friday night, about 20 of us crowded around a long table at a family-style Italian spot near Times Square.
周六我们又聚了一次，周日早上，我们一群人还在早餐时争论苏格拉底，然后大家各自回家。
Saturday, we did it again, and Sunday morning, a group of us were still debating Socrates over breakfast before everyone headed home.
那些餐桌上的许多人之前只在Mastermind社区的线上通话中认识彼此。
Many of the people at those tables had only known each other from our calls in the Mastermind community.
那是我和Kyle Greive、Daniel Monca一起主持的社区。
That is the community I host with Kyle Greive and Daniel Monca.
每周我们都会通过直播通话聚在一起，深入探讨市场和各个企业。
Each week, we get together on live calls to dig into markets and individual businesses.
我们会邀请基金经理、运营者和作家来做嘉宾，每年还有几次线下见面，比如今年秋天的纽约和每年春天的奥马哈。
We bring in fund managers, operators, and authors as guest speakers, and a few times a year, like New York this fall and Omaha every spring, we meet in person.
如果你想和一群同样以十年为单位思考的人一起交流，可以免费申请加入，网址是theinvestorspodcast.com/mastermind。
If you want to think in decades alongside people who do the same, apply for free at theinvestorspodcast.com/mastermind.
如果你的申请特别突出，我会亲自联系你。
If your application stands out, I'll be the one to reach out to you personally.
好了，回到节目。
All right, back to the show.
对，这真的很有意思。
Yeah, it's really fascinating.
我觉得在读你写的那些关于他的老故事时，我特别触动的是，他在很多方面都树立了一个原型，后来那些伟大的创始人身上你一次又一次地看到同样的特质，对吧？
I think I was very struck as I was going through those old stories that you wrote about him, of in how many ways he sort of established a prototype for what you would see again and again with great founders, right?
你会写到那种狂热和专注，早期对技术的痴迷，对吧？
So you would write about the fanaticism and the focus, the early obsession with technology, right?
比如他在1967年上七年级的时候，就对一台电脑着了迷，那台电脑我记得是用母亲俱乐部旧货义卖的钱买的。
So the fact that back when he was in seventh grade in 1967, he just becomes obsessed with this computer that I think was bought with the proceeds of the Mother's Club rummage sale.
然后他告诉你，基本上他六年里只休了十五天假。
And then he says to you that basically he's taken 15 days of vacation in six years.
然后你描述说，他家离微软总部开车只要十四分钟，有个游泳池，但他基本上整天都待在放着一台IBM个人电脑的书房里。
And then you describe the fact that he has this home 14 minutes drive from Microsoft's headquarters, and it has a swimming pool, but basically he just spends his whole time in the den that has an IBM PC.
你还提到他那让人不舒服的高标准，对吧？
And you talk about his uncomfortably high standards, right?
这个叫Town的人，我想是他高薪聘请的高管，不到一年就走了，另一个同事说：“比尔不会把每件事都解释两遍。”
The fact that this guy, Town, I think, who he'd hired in some very senior position, had left within a year, and one of the other colleagues says, "Bill isn't going to explain everything twice."
还有他赚钱的本事，对吧？
And also the knack for making money, right?
你提到1972年他当国会侍童时，和朋友用每个五分钱的价格买下了一堆麦戈文和伊格尔顿的竞选徽章，多年后以每个二十五美元的价格当纪念品卖掉了。
You talk about how working as a congressional page in 1972, he and this friend get all of these McGovern Eagleton campaign buttons for a nickel each, and he sells them years later as mementos for $25 each.
所以再次强调，那种天赋，那种赚钱的本事。
So again, the talent, the knack for making money.
所以我真的被震撼到了，你一次又一次看到的那些特质，其实从一开始就非常明显。
So I was just really struck by how many of the things that you saw again and again were actually really evident from the very start.
比尔当然不是美国科技的开端，他自己也会第一个这么说，我想。
Bill was not the very start when it comes, obviously, to technology in America, and he'd be the first to say that, I would've thought.
但这取决于你想在美国不同技术的发展史上追溯多远。
But it depends how far back you want to go in the family history of the evolution of different technologies in America.
但是——
But-
但那是你职业生涯中开始接触创始人的起点——
But the very start of your career of seeing founders-
哦，对。
Oh, yeah
……以及那些了不起的东西。
... and the great stuff.
这么说很公平，因为等我认识半导体行业的人时，除了创始人之外，我最初认识的那些人都是五十多岁了。
That's very fair because by the time I got to know people in the semiconductor industry, save for the founders, but the people I first got to know in the semiconductor industry were in their 50s.
所以，当我见到他们时，像鲍勃·诺伊斯或戈登·摩尔这样的巨头人物。
So, when I met them, people like Bob Noyce or Gordon Moore, the huge titanic figures like that.
所以对我来说，很难想象他们十八九岁时的样子。
So it was very difficult for me to imagine them as an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old.
但你读到他们青少年时期的故事，会发现那和比尔痴迷的东西如出一辙。我觉得这是每个成功创始人的共同特质，就像我刚才说的。
But you read about their teenage years, and it echoed the obsessions of Bill, and I think it's a characteristic, as I was saying, I think it's a characteristic of every successful founder.
比如埃隆·马斯克，还有现在在Anthropic的达里奥，以及中国和世界各地一大批了不起的创业者。
Elon Musk, maybe Dario over at Anthropic these days, a whole bunch of incredible entrepreneurs in China and elsewhere around the world.
所以我觉得，那种近乎疯狂的专注，很早就被技术中的某个东西深深吸引。
So I think that maniacal obsession, being captivated early on by something about technology.
随着技术几十年的发展，那个“东西”一直在变。
The something varies over the decades as technology has progressed.
在很小的时候就被吸引，拥有永不满足的好奇心，愿意屏蔽一切干扰，再加上天生的商业头脑。
Being captivated at a very early age, being extremely insatiably curious, being willing to shut out every possible distraction, having a well-endowed mercantile sensibility.
这些都是所有伟大创业者的特质。而比尔身上，这些特质被放大到了极致，引起了无数人的兴趣，也让他所取得的成就远远超过了其他人，这完全是因为他领导这家公司走过了一段非凡的旅程，取得了巨大的成功。
Those are characteristics of every great entrepreneur, and with Bill, obviously, they were writ large and became of great interest to many people and dwarfed the accomplishments of others simply because of the extraordinary journey and success over this company over which he presided.
史蒂夫·乔布斯显然是你职业生涯早期一个非常重要的人物。
Steve Jobs obviously was a very seminal figure early in your career.
其实，比比尔·盖茨还重要。
More important, really, than Bill Gates.
乔布斯是苹果电脑的联合创始人，苹果上市比你开始见他早不了多少，我记得没错的话，他也是个极其执着和狂热的人。
And Jobs, who had co-founded Apple Computer, which hadn't gone public that much earlier than you started to meet him, I think, if I remember rightly, was another great obsessive and fanatic.
但他身上有些不一样的地方，因为他不仅是个伟大的资本家，还是个伟大的审美家和讲故事的人。
But there was something different in him because he was also not just a great capitalist, but a great aesthete and a great storyteller.
你能跟我们说说，80年代初和他一起度过大量时间是什么感觉吗？
Can you give us a sense of what it was like spending enormous amounts of time with him back in the early '80s?
还有，他是怎么在你心里树立了一个某种原型的，虽然他自己非常独特，但其中有些特质是你后来在伟大商业领袖身上会寻找的。
And again, how he sort of established a kind of prototype in your own mind of some of the characteristics, while also being totally unique, some of the characteristics you would look for in great business leaders.
很多很多年前，我写过一本关于苹果的书，叫《小王国》。
Decades and decades ago, I wrote a book about Apple, and it was called "The Little Kingdom."
我记得是1984年出版的。
I think it came out in 1984.
当时吸引我的不是苹果在80年代中期开始获得的名气。
And what had interested me about Apple wasn't the notoriety it was beginning to get in the mid-1980s.
让我感兴趣的是回答这个我以前从未想过的问题：几个年轻人是怎么想到要创办一家公司的？
What had interested me was answering this story and this question that I had never thought about before Which was, how do a couple of very young people ever imagine how to start a company?
于是我开始调查，尽可能多地采访那些在史蒂夫·乔布斯和史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克非常年轻时就认识他们的人，比如他们在高中时，或者有一两个人甚至在他们更小的时候就认识他们，通过学校或者电脑爱好者圈子等等。
And so as I began to investigate that and talk to as many people as possible who had known Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak back when they were extremely young, when they were at high school, or maybe there were one or two that had known them when they were even younger, either through school or through computer hobbyist circles and all the rest of it.
这让我开始了解史蒂夫当时为什么会是那样的人，以及他后来成为什么样的人，直到他过早地离开了我们。
That began to give me an introduction to why Steve was the man he was back then, and the man that he later became before he was so rudely taken from us.
我记得的一件事是，即使在他十八九岁经营苹果公司的时候，他对完美的追求也让所有人抓狂。
And one of the things that I do remember was how even as a 18, 19-year-old running Apple, he drove everybody nuts with his desire for perfection.
我记得一个小故事，虽然已经很久了，所以细节有点模糊，就是他如何逼疯那些负责为第一台苹果电脑提供印刷电路板的人。
And one little anecdote I remember, it's a long time ago now, so I'm struggling a little bit to remember all the various bits of color, was how he drove the people responsible for providing the printed circuit board that sat inside of the very first Apple.
那是一台单板计算机。
It was a single board computer.
史蒂夫就是逼着印刷电路板制造商，直到他对电路板上细小的导线布局的美观程度感到满意为止。
And how Steve just drove the printed circuit board manufacturer nuts until he was happy with the aesthetic manner in which the little thin wires were traced across the printed circuit board.
这并不影响电脑的功能，但史蒂夫决心让它看起来尽可能漂亮。
It didn't affect the functionality of the computer, but Steve was determined to make it look as attractive as possible.
同样，我认识设计最初苹果标志的那个人，就是那个多彩苹果的标志。
And the same, I knew the fellow who came up with the original Apple logo, which was this multicolored apple.
而且，史蒂夫对完美的追求又把那个标志设计师逼得快要发疯了。
And again, Steve driving the logo designer absolutely crazy in his desire for perfection.
但我觉得你说到点子上了。
But I think you put your finger on it.
史蒂夫和其他人最大的不同就是，他是个审美家。
The thing that separated Steve from everybody else was that he was an aesthete.
他骨子里有神秘主义者和诗人的一面，也愿意探索其他宗教思想，或者去印度旅行。
And there was part of him that was a mystic and a poet, and a man open to exploring other religious thoughts or journeying to India.
我记得有个广为人知的故事，他曾经说过他常常好奇比尔·盖茨会不会——他和比尔多年来关系起起伏伏。
I think he once, it's a well-known story, he once said he often wondered whether Bill Gates would-- And he had a long up-and-down relationship with Bill over the years.
有时候他们是合作伙伴，有时候又是竞争对手。
Sometimes they were collaborators, sometimes they were competitors.
但史蒂夫对微软任何产品的审美品质都不以为然。
But Steve was no admirer of the aesthetic quality of any of the Microsoft products.
他有一次说：“比尔要是吸过LSD，肯定会好很多。”
And he said at one point, "Well, Bill would've been a lot better if he'd taken some LSD."
哈。
Ha.
你在红杉取得的很多成功，似乎某种程度上都能追溯到你的记者生涯。
It seems like a lot of the success that you achieved at Sequoia can be traced back in certain ways to your journalism career.
好多人跟我说过，你之所以能脱颖而出，是因为你特别会看人，能一眼把人看透。
And various people have told me that one of the things that's made you stand out is your ability to take the measure of a person, to size a person up.
我想知道你能不能跟我们讲讲你职业生涯中的那段经历，就是你去别人家里采访的那段。
And I'm wondering if you could bridge for us this part of your career where you were going into the homes.
你真的会走进史蒂夫·乔布斯家的主卧，还会去次卧，看到他的衣服、干洗好的西装整整齐齐地摊在地上。
Literally going into the master bedroom of Steve Jobs' house and going into the second bedroom and seeing his laundry, his dry cleaning laid out perfectly on the floor.
从那个阶段，再到后来你成了风险投资人，经常面对那些非常年轻的创业者，你要判断的是：这个人会不会百折不挠、永不放弃？
Going from that to then becoming a venture capitalist who's looking at very young founders often, and trying to figure out, is this person going to be absolutely indomitable, relentless?
他们值得信任吗？
Are they trustworthy?
你能谈谈你是怎么把当记者时练就的那些本事，用在投资上的吗？
Can you talk about how you took those skills that you had developed as a journalist and applied them to help you as an investor?
首先，你真是太抬举我了，因为我犯过太多错误。
Well, first of all, you're being absurdly generous, because I made so many mistakes.
不过，人们往往……我有一顶帽子，一直留着，是那种印着公司标志的棒球帽，从我们投资Webvan那家惨败的公司起，我就一直留着它。
But people tend to I have a hat that I've kept from, and every now and again, one of these caps with a company logo on it, that I've kept ever since we made the investment in a spectacularly disastrous investment called Webvan.
我那些小帽子都戴着。
And I wear all the little hats I've got.
我的Webvan帽子是唯一一顶我愿意在公共场合戴的，提醒我自己判断力有多不靠谱。
My Webvan hat is the only one that I would be seen in public with as a reminder to myself how frail my grip is on judgment.
但我觉得这真的很难。
But I think it's very difficult.
谁能想到，一个16岁在新墨西哥州阿尔伯克基创业的小子，后来会创建微软？或者那个在山景城、留着胡子、邋里邋遢、长发飘飘、穿着勃肯鞋的家伙，会是苹果的灵魂人物，无论是第一次还是第二次？
Who the devil would have thought that a 16-year-old who started a company in Albuquerque is going to build Microsoft, or this fellow in Mountain View who had a beard and was unkempt and had long hair and walked around in Birkenstock, was the essence, both in the first coming and the second coming, of Apple.
当一个人只有17、18岁的时候，你怎么做出这种判断？
How do you make that judgment when somebody is 17 or 18?
因为有很多人在那个年纪就得到了投资者的支持，大家都抱着类似的希望，觉得他们能走完全程，跑完全程。
Because there are a lot of people who get backed by investors at that age with a similar hope that they will go the distance, run the course.
但你永远不知道结果会怎样。
But you never know.
而且有些人，我能想到一大堆，让人大失所望，我们集体的判断因为某种原因出了错。
And some people, I can think of a whole bunch, severely disappoint, where our collective judgment was wrong for some reason.
他们没有你原本以为的那种对产品的敏锐度。
They didn't have the product sensibility you thought they had.
他们没有吸引和招募顶尖人才的能力，也没有照顾所有利益相关者的意愿。
They didn't have the ability to entice and hire really high caliber people They didn't have the desire to look after all of their stakeholders.
这些都是那些创始人身上不太光彩的一面，他们起步了，但最终却不了了之。
All of these less salubrious aspects of founders who began, but eventually petered out.
所以，看看黄仁勋，他是我一直以来的偶像之一。
And so it is the-- Look at Jensen Huang, one of my all-time heroes.
红杉资本投资英伟达，我记得是在1992年。
And Sequoia backed Nvidia in, I think it was 1992.
现在都34年过去了，黄仁勋还在经营他创立的公司，热情、精力和决心跟创立那天一模一样。
Here we are, what, 34 years later, and Jensen is still running the company that he founded with as much gusto and energy and determination as on the day that he founded it.
谁能想到呢？
Who would ever have imagined?
谁曾和这家公司一起在荒野中跋涉，穿越沙漠，公司几次濒临倒闭，现在却站在了世界的中心？
And who has been in the wilderness with this company and has walked across the desert, and whose company has been close to oblivion a couple of times, and now is at the center of the universe.
即使当时我们对黄仁勋的评价非常高，但谁能预见到英伟达的故事会发展成今天这个样子呢？
Who would have known when, even though we had really glowing references on Jensen, that the Nvidia story would have played out in the manner in which it has?
谷歌也一样。
Ditto for Google.
其他那些坚持到底的公司也是如此。
Ditto for all of these other companies that go the distance.
但每有一家像微软、英伟达或Alphabet这样的公司，就有几十上百家因为各种原因半途而废。
But for every company like Microsoft or Nvidia or Alphabet, there are dozens and dozens and dozens that fall by the wayside for whatever reason.
所以，无论你对那个你花了几小时相处的19岁年轻人做出什么判断，你聊过他的成长经历，聊过他如何成为现在的19岁，因为我一直相信，人生的前15年真正塑造了每个人，留下了深刻的印记。
And so whatever guess one's trying to make about the 19-year-old that you've spent some hours with, and you've talked about their upbringing and how they came to be 19, because I've always believed that the first 15 years of life really shape, put the imprint on everybody.
不管调查得多深入，都容易被误导，容易出错，幸运的是，我们偶尔也能看对。
No matter how deep the investigation is, it's easy to be misled, it's easy to be wrong, and fortunately, every now and again, we get it right.
对你来说，喜不喜欢他们，或者只是觉得他们特别顽强、有决心，或者实际上就是信任他们，觉得他们是能照顾好事情的人，这有多重要？
How important was it for you whether you liked them or simply thought they were unbelievably tenacious and determined, or actually just trusted them, that you thought that they were somebody who would look after-
我觉得对我来说，尤其是当你和对方同龄，或者特别是当你年纪更大时，投资领域，不管哪个行业，都充斥着太多的傲慢。我认为投资者最难做到的事情之一，尤其是那些很早就投资公司的人，就是你要寻找比你年轻的人，他们能在你知之甚少的领域给你很深的教育。
I think for me, and particularly either if you're the same age, or particularly when you become older, and the investment universe, whatever sector it is, is infested with so much arrogance that I think one of the hardest things for an investor to do, especially one who invested very early in companies, is that you're looking for people younger than yourself who can educate you very deeply about something about which you know little.
作为投资者，你需要克服那种虚荣心，不要想：“天哪，这位女士、这位先生比我小10岁、20岁、30岁。
And one needs, as the investor, to overcome the vanity associated with thinking, "My goodness, this lady, this man is 10 years younger than me, 20 years, 30 years younger than me.
他们懂什么？”
What do they know?"
结果发现，他们对你一无所知的事情懂得很多。
Turns out they know a lot about something that you know nothing about.
而且有时候，他们对某个话题的了解非常深入，而世界上其他人对此一无所知。
And it turns out sometimes that they know something about a topic in great depth that the rest of the world doesn't know anything about.
回想一下比尔·盖茨。
Go back to Bill Gates.
从纸面上看，1978年微软根本没有任何理由能跟IBM抗衡。
On paper, there was no reason in 1978 that Microsoft should ever have stood a chance against IBM.
这些事已经被写了很多了。
This stuff has been written about a lot.
或者苹果跟一些电脑公司比。
Or Apple against some of the computer companies.
但是比尔、史蒂夫、詹森、达里奥，随便你挑一个名字，他们都对某个特定领域钻研得很深，而IBM高层那些管事的根本一窍不通。
But Bill, Steve, Jensen, Dario, pick your favorite name, they had been deeply immersed in a particular topic that the people running these companies at the top of IBM or in a senior level at IBM had no frigging clue about.
所以比尔·盖茨对个人电脑软件前景那种近乎偏执的关注，他比IBM任何高层都想得更深、更透。
So Bill Gates' monomaniacal attention to the prospects of the software for the personal computer, he had thought more about it, more deeply about it than anybody at a senior level at IBM.
而IBM呢，有的是钱。
And there, IBM had all the money in the world.
他们资产负债表很庞大。
They had the big balance sheet.
他们有成千上万的员工。
They had thousands of employees.
他们到处都有数不清的客户，而且和这些客户建立了长期的关系。
They had bazillion customers all over the place, established relationships with them.
但IBM是个庞大、行动缓慢的公司，所以比尔最终给他们上了一堂非常痛苦的课，让他们明白一个十七八岁、二十岁左右的年轻人，如果对某个新兴事物非常了解，再加上合适的管理团队和正确的商业眼光，就能智胜、超越并征服那些老牌公司。
But they're a big, slow-moving company, and therefore, Bill eventually provided them a very bitter education about how a 17, 18, 20-year-old who knows a lot about something that is fresh and something that is new, if harnessed with the right management team, with the right business outlook, can outmaneuver, outrun, and conquer incumbent companies.
但对投资者来说，关键是要保持开放的心态，愿意向比你年轻得多的人学习。
But for an investor, it's all about being open and being willing to be educated by somebody a lot younger than you are.
查理·芒格说过一些关于你的很有意思的话，我想跟你聊聊，看看你是否同意，或者这些话能不能引发你一些有趣的回应或想法。
Charlie Munger said a couple of really interesting things about you that I wonder if I could run by you and see if you agree with them, or just if they stir interesting reactions from you, interesting thoughts from you.
其中一句，他说——这是几年前我和他谈话时他的原话。
One of them, he said, these are his exact words from a conversation I had with him a few years back.
他说：“风险投资的麻烦在于，每成立一只新基金，你就得再去创造另一个奇迹。”
He said, "The trouble with venture capital, with every new fund, you've got to go out and create another miracle.
红杉资本做到了，其他少数几家也做得不错。
Sequoia has been able to do it, and a few others have done fairly well.
但基本上，大多数做风险投资的人业绩都很糟糕。
But basically, most people in venture capital have lousy records.
这很难。
It's difficult."
然后他谈到了红杉的回报有多惊人，即使扣除了那些高额的费用和利润分成，那些该死的投资者每年还能赚大约25%。
And then he talked about how extraordinary Sequoia's returns were, even after those huge fees and profit sharing, the goddamn investors have made something like 25% per annum.
然后他说了一些非常有趣的话，开始谈论你的性格以及坚持持有赢家的重要性。
And then he said something really interesting, where he started talking about your temperament and the importance of holding winners.
这对我来说特别有意思。
And this was particularly interesting to me.
他说：“每个回头看的人，所有这些成功的投资者，他们都觉得自己应该一直持有赢家，包括红杉的人。”
He said, "Everybody who looks back, all of these successful investors, they all think they should have held onto their winners, including the people at Sequoia.
在红杉早期的那些人里，做得最好的是迈克尔·莫里茨，他并不是最聪明的那个。
Of the early guys at Sequoia, the guy that did best was Michael Moritz, and he was not the leading intellect.
但在性格上，他能够坚持持有所有东西。”
But temperamentally, he was able to hang on to everything."
他比他那些更聪明的合伙人都做得好。
He did better than all his brighter partners.
我觉得这真是个很有意思的观点。
And I just thought that was a really interesting insight.
我不知道这说法准不准确。
I don't know if that's accurate.
你对这个观点有什么看法？
What's your reaction to that insight?
大多数投资者都做不到什么都不做。
Most investors are incapable of doing nothing.
首先，他说我聪明，我真是受宠若惊。
Well, first of all, I'm incredibly flattered that he's right about the intellect.
他居然还记得或者说过这话，我真是受宠若惊。
I'm incredibly flattered that he would even remember or have said that.
大多数投资者，不管在哪个领域，伯克希尔·哈撒韦在这方面都是个例外。
Most investors, doesn't matter what arena, Berkshire Hathaway is a standout in this regard.
大多数投资者天生就做不到什么都不做。
Most investors are congenitally incapable of doing nothing.
他们必须做点什么。
They have to do something.
如果你是风险投资人，持有一家私营公司的股份，在最近五到十年二级市场大规模兴起之前，你根本没法操作。
Now, if you're a venture investor, and you have shares in a private company, until the last five, 10 years when the secondary market has kicked in in a big fashion, if you have shares in a private company, you can't do anything.
但一旦公司上市，你立刻就有机会卖出。
But when it becomes public, you immediately have the opportunity to sell it.
人们买股票，不管公司是私营还是上市，都是因为觉得它会涨。
And people buy a stock because, whether it's private or public, because they think it's going to go up.
人们卖股票的原因五花八门。
People sell a stock for all sorts of different reasons.
他们的动机各不相同。
They've got all sorts of different motives.
也许他们需要钱。
Maybe they need some money.
也许他们的父母身体不好。
Maybe they've got ailing parents.
也许他们想买房子。
Maybe they want to buy a house.
也许他们正在离婚。
Maybe they are getting divorced.
也许他们只是感到担忧和紧张。
Maybe they're just apprehensive and nervous.
也许他们在回想过去，想到这家公司现在的股价创了历史新高，却发现自己无法把决策建立在今天，而不是过去。
And maybe they're thinking about the past and the fact that this company is now trading quote at an all-time high, and find it impossible to transport themselves into a decision of today, not the decision of yesteryear.
今天的决策是关于这家公司从今天起未来的机会是什么，而不是想着我们是怎么走到今天的。
A decision of today about what does the future opportunity for this company look like from today forward, rather than thinking about how we got to today.
所以我经常问别人一个问题，当有人对我说：‘你不觉得我们应该卖掉吗？’
So a question I always ask people is when somebody says to me, "Well, don't you think we should sell it?
‘现在股价已经创了历史新高了。’
It's trading at an all-time high."
我会问那个人：在亚马逊上市这大约30年里，这只股票有多少天是创历史新高的？
My question to that person is, in the 30 years or so that Amazon has traded as a public company, how many days has that stock traded at an all-time high?
这个问题总能让人一下子愣住。
That question always stops people in their tracks.
对我来说，如果能做到这一点，虽然在其他各种压力下这非常难。
And for me, if one can do it, which is so difficult with all these other pressures going on.
比如说，一家公司某个季度业绩不佳，或者传出一些坏消息，或者有高管离职。
Let's say a company misses a quarter, or there's some bad news that comes from it, or a senior executive departs.
人们就会变得焦躁不安，做出错误的决定。
The people get antsy and make the wrong decision.
但我认为，在这个世界上你能做的最好的事情就是运气好，或者从投资的角度来说，如果你身处投资领域，就是有幸投资于一家能够以你期望的复利增长的公司，无论是15%、18%还是20%，并且持续很多很多年。
But I think the best thing that you can possibly do in the world is to be lucky, or from an investment, if you're in the investment universe, is to have the good fortune to be an investor in a company that offers the prospect of compounding at whatever rate you want, 15%, 18%, 20%, for many, many years.
因为没有什么能比得上一家定位良好的公司所带来的复利效应。
Because there is nothing that beats the compounding power of a well-positioned company.
但大多数人无法认识到这一点，他们屈服、放弃、逃跑、感到害怕，随便你怎么说，然后多年后回头看，对自己说：“我买了一栋价值4亿美元的豪宅，因为那是我20年前花300万美元买的那只股票，如果我没有卖掉它去买房子，现在它值这么多钱。”
But most people are unable to recognize that and capitulate, give up, run away, are frightened, pick whatever one that you want, and then look back many years later and say to themselves, "I bought a $400 million house because that was what the $3 million that it cost me 20 years ago is now worth had I not sold the stock to buy the house."
我觉得这是一个非常重要的见解。
It's an amazingly important insight, I think.
这很符合查理的风格，他总能抓住这么重要的事情。
Typical of Charlie that he homed in on something so important.
你领导或共同领导红杉很多年，我想大概有16年左右，之后你才卸任正式的日常领导者职务。
You led or co-led Sequoia for many years, I think 16 years or so before you stepped down as the official leader, day-to-day leader.
我很好奇你从领导力中学到了什么，尤其是你观察了这么多优秀的企业领导者，但更特别的是，你与亚历克斯·弗格森爵士的关系，他担任曼联主教练26年，非常了不起。
I'm very curious about what you learned about being a leader, not least from having watched all of these great corporate leaders, but in particular, actually, from your relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson, the great Manchester United manager for 26 years, who was absolutely extraordinary.
我想大多数人看你的职业生涯，会认为盖茨、乔布斯、艾柯卡这些人是你想效仿的对象。
I think most people who would look at your career would assume that the Gateses and the Jobses and the Iacoccas and the like were the people you would really want to emulate.
但实际上，弗格森可能是最伟大的榜样。
But actually, Ferguson may be the greatest model of all.
给我们详细讲讲吧。
Unpack that a little for us.
我真希望早点认识他。
I wish I'd known him earlier.
我大概20年前才真正认识他，巧合的是，忍不住要说，我们还有一本新书要出版。
I didn't really get to know him until about 20 years ago, and coincidentally, and can't resist this, we have another book that's coming out.
这本书下周底在英国出版，叫《我生命中的比赛》，我们过去几年一直在弄，现在终于要出了。
It's getting published in Britain at the end of next week called "The Games of My Life" which we worked on for the last couple of years, and it's now coming out.
不过那是题外话。
But that's by the by.
嗯，首先，我觉得我并不是特别——如果让我再领导红杉一次，我觉得我今天会比当时在那个位置上做得更好。
Well, first of all, I don't think I was particularly-- If I had to lead Sequoia again, I think I'd be a much better leader today than I was when I was actually in that position.
好得多，原因有很多。
Much better for a whole variety of different reasons.
其中一个原因就是学习了弗格森爵士领导和管理曼联的方式，他干了将近27个赛季，这太了不起了，他也成了职业足球历史上最成功的主教练。
One of which is learning about the way in which Sir Alex led and managed Manchester United for pushing 27 seasons, which is extraordinary, and becoming the most successful manager in professional soccer in history.
对完美有着巨大的追求。
Enormous desire for perfection.
不懈的工作态度。
Relentless work ethic.
绝对是不懈的。
Absolutely relentless.
对质量毫不留情。
Unsentimental about quality.
对懒惰和表现不佳绝不宽容。
Unforgiving of laziness, poor performance.
但是，他在这方面没有得到足够的认可——他对球员非常体贴、富有同理心，也很温暖，尤其是对那些需要安慰的球员，他能很好地平衡这种人情世故，知道每个人需要什么，从而去培养他们，激发他们最好的表现。
But, and he's not given enough credit for this, being enormously sympathetic, empathetic, warm to players, in his case, who needed an arm around the shoulder, and balancing that yardstick of human emotion, knowing when to What individuals needed in order to be able to nourish them and bring the best out of them.
我记得大约十年前，我们写了一本叫《领导力》的书，讲的是领导力、商业之类的内容。
And I remember when we wrote this book called Leading about 10 years ago that was about leadership and business and that sort of stuff.
从他的领导力课程中，有两件事让我印象特别深刻，其实他有很多这样的经验。
And there were two things that really stuck with me from his lessons of leadership, and there are a bunch of them.
让我印象最深的两件事是：我从来不想被人喜爱。
The two that stuck with me are, I never sought out to be loved.
我也不想让人害怕。
I never wanted to be feared.
我只想得到尊重。
I just wanted to be respected.
我觉得这是一个非常精明、明智的方式，让领导者思考自己希望被组织中的其他人如何看待。
I thought that was extremely shrewd and wise way for a leader to think about how he or she wanted to be perceived by the others in the organization.
第二点就是那三个神奇的字：永不放弃。
And the second was those three magical words, never give up.
你之前讲过一个故事，让我印象很深，就是关于大卫·贝克汉姆又一次毁了我们在世界杯上的机会，因为一个荒唐的犯规被罚下场。
I was very struck by a story you've told before about after David Beckham once again ruined our chances in the World Cup and got sent off for some ridiculous foul.
那时候，如果弗格森爵士和贝克汉姆走在伦敦街头，贝克汉姆肯定会被骂得狗血淋头。
And Sir Alex and David, he would've been tarred and feathered if he had walked through the streets of London at that point.
我记得弗格森爵士去了希思罗机场，应该是去接他，在他下飞机的时候保护他，告诉他他在这里支持他，在他最被英国人唾弃的时候，给了他一个长辈般的拥抱。
And Sir Alex went down to Heathrow, I think, to meet him as he got off the plane to protect him and to say that he was there for him and offer the avuncular arm around the shoulder at a time when Beckham was one of the more vilified people in Britain.
你经常谈到伟大的管理在于说服人们去完成不可能的事情。
You've talked a lot about great management involving persuading people to succeed at what's impossible.
我猜，当你看到像埃隆这样的人——你曾称他为美国历史上最伟大的实业家——或者杰夫·贝索斯、扎克伯格、拉里·佩奇，这大概是他们的共同点，因为马斯克不断在看似不可能的事情上取得成功，并且不知怎么地不断说服人们，甚至有点“忽悠”他们，这种能力几乎无人能及，几乎不像人类。
And I'm guessing when you look at someone like Elon, who you've described as the greatest industrialist in the history of America, he or Jeff Bezos or Zuckerberg or Larry Page, presumably that's kind of a common denominator here, because Musk's ability to keep succeeding at what seems to be impossible and to keep persuading people somehow, bludging them, seems almost unrivaled, almost inhuman.
嗯，这是每个领导者的职责。
Well, it's the job of every leader.
埃隆显然已经用荧光大字把这件事写在了天上。
Elon obviously has written it in fluorescent letters across the skies.
但如果你考虑创业或开公司，你必须——我认为这也是每一位伟大领袖的优点和美德之一——能够讲述未来可能发生的事情，描绘未来的图景。
But if you're thinking about starting a business or starting a company, you have to, and this is I think one of the strengths and virtues of every great leader, is to be able to tell the story about what's going to be possible and paint a picture of the future.
因为无论你是面对年度员工，他们可能会问：我为什么要加入你的公司，某某先生或女士？
Because whether you're doing it with yearly employees, why should I join your company, Mr. or Miss so-and-so?
你必须说服他们相信未来。
You have to convince them about the future.
如果你在和客户交谈，你必须能够说服他们，你的公司有未来，是稳固的，他们购买你的产品不会感到尴尬。
If you are talking to a customer, you have to be able to convince them that your company has a future and is solid, and they won't be embarrassed if they purchase a product from you.
如果你在和投资者交谈，你必须能够描绘出图景，讲述如果公司蓬勃发展，他们的投资可能会变成什么样子。
If you're talking to investor, you have to be able to paint the picture and tell the story of what their investment might become if the company flourishes.
而在埃隆的案例中，显然他做这一切的规模完全不同，因为他在很多情况下还要与政府对话，无论是关于特斯拉早期或SpaceX发展初期的项目援助，还是为了推动某个项目起步而争取支持，并说服政府机构去做他们可能并不特别想做的事情。
And in Elon's case, obviously he does all of this at a completely different scale because he's also talking to, in many cases, governments about either assistance for a program early on in Tesla, early on in the development of SpaceX, assistance to get something off the ground and convincing government entities to do something that they may not particularly want to do.
这就是描绘一个大多数人看不到的未来可能性，然后说服他们加入你的奇妙冒险。
It's painting the possibilities of a future that most people can't see and then convincing them to join you on your merry caper.
你真是非常慷慨地花时间跟我聊，我知道你马上就得走了。
You've been incredibly generous with your time, and I know you have to go in a minute.
在你走之前，我很好奇，我们一开始聊到你是个局外人，而且你书的标题《Auslander》讲的就是局外人的感觉。
Before I let you go, I'm curious, we started by talking about you as an outsider and obviously the title of your book, Auslander, is about being an outsider.
从某种程度上说，你已经变成了一个彻头彻尾的圈内人。
And in some ways you've become sort of the consummate insider.
你现在72岁了，我想，你职业生涯的大部分时间都在最顶级的风险投资公司度过，福布斯估计你的净资产有几十亿美元，而且你在牛津、国家美术馆、布克奖这些地方都成了非常重要的慈善家。
Here you are at 72, I think, and you've spent the bulk of your career at the most prestigious venture capital firm, and Forbes has estimated your net worth at many billions of dollars, and you've become a really important philanthropist at places like Oxford and the National Gallery and the Booker Prize and the like.
我只是想知道，你是否已经放下了那种局外人的感觉，还是说你仍然有那种不停歇的紧迫感，还有那种轻微的不安，就像你妈妈在你身后说“还不够”，而你仍然觉得自己可能是个彻底的流氓、失败者和骗子，就像你以前想的那样。
And I'm just wondering if you've put to rest that sense of being an outsider, or if you still have the same sense of relentlessness and the slight discomfort, the slight sense of your mother behind you saying, "It's not enough," and you're probably still a total rogue and loser and crook as you used to think.
一旦是局外人，永远是局外人。
Once an outsider, always an outsider.
嗯。
Huh.
真的吗？
Really?
没有逃脱的可能吗？
There's no escape?
再说一次，我并不是在抱怨，因为这是我生来就有的状态，也是我将带着离开的状态。
Again, I'm not complaining about it because it was the condition I was born with and it's the condition I will die with.
还有最后一件事。
And one final thing.
在书的献词里，你写给了你的妻子哈丽特，还有你的孩子杰克和威尔，说他们让我睁开了眼睛。我想问一下，为什么这么说，这对你意味着什么？
In the dedication to the book you write for Harriet, who's your wife, and Jake and Will, your kids, who opened my eyes, and I just wanted to ask why, what it meant.
他们是怎么让你睁开眼睛的？
How did they open your eyes?
我觉得他们让我明白，我不必像我的父母那样。
I think they taught me that I didn't need to be like my parents.
这是个很好的领悟。
That's a good lesson.
迈克尔，今天真的很愉快。
Michael, it's been such a delight.
我很喜欢和你聊天。
I've loved talking to you.
真希望时间能更长一些，但非常感谢你抽出时间和我聊。
I wish we had longer, but I'm hugely grateful for the time you've spent with me.
你太客气了。
You're most generous.
希望这只是我们众多对话中的第一次。
And I hope it's the first of many conversations.
很高兴见到你。
Lovely to meet you.
再见。
Bye.
保重。
Take care.
照顾好自己。
Stay well.
感谢收听TIP。
Thanks for listening to TIP.
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This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and does not provide financial, investment, tax, or legal advice.
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投资有风险，可能损失本金，过往业绩不代表未来表现。
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听众在做出任何财务决策前，应自行研究并咨询合格的专业人士。
Listeners should do their own research and consult a qualified professional before making any financial decisions.
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