How to Speak Up with Confidence ft. Tori Kelly

是的，特别喜欢。

Yeah, love it.

比如那些内向、不爱说话的人。

Of somebody who's shy and reserved.

因为我经常帮助的那些人，托里，都是在与人沟通方面感到困难或希望提升的人。

Because the people I get to help, Tori, all the time are people who struggle or want to improve in the way they communicate with people.

我觉得特别动人的是，每个人都有自己独特的表达方式。

And what I find so beautiful about it is everybody has a different style of voice.

对。

Yeah.

但传达的信息往往能让人深受触动。

But the message is always something that could just blow you away.

没错。

Mhmm.

我发现那些特别内向的人，没错。

And I find that people who are very shy Mhmm.

特别内向，是的。

Very introverted Mhmm.

别小看他们，他们往往能说出最深刻、最发人深省的话。

Like, don't count them out on having some of the most, like, deepest thought provoking words.

如果你去跟一个特别害羞的人聊聊，是的。

If you were to talk to somebody who's super shy Mhmm.

你会给他们什么建议，让他们觉得这种特质值得珍惜？

What kind of advice would you give them to say this is something worth valuing?

害羞这种特质，

Like being shy is

是的，值得。

something Yeah.

不需要改变自己去迎合别人。

Worth Not to be anything I different than who you

我觉得，拥有一个表达自己的渠道很重要。

would say, I do think it's important to have some kind of outlet.

对我来说，写歌就是这样的出口。

I think songwriting for me has been that.

就像你说的，那些内向、安静的人，可能在当下很难把心里那些深刻的想法直接说出来。

Because like you said, I think people who are more shy and more reserved, I think we might have a harder time in the moment saying the the deep thing that we're trying to think of.

我承认，我还是不太擅长在那种即时场合，一下子说出最贴切的话。

I I I still I don't think I'm the best at, you know, on the spot, like, just having the best

即兴发挥。

Picking on your feet.

总是这样。

Words all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

但我觉得我的强项在于写歌。

But I think my superpower is in my songwriting.

我觉得自己特别能传达出真实的情感。

I feel like I can really get an emotion across.

我能让人感受到一些他们以前从未体验过的情绪？

I can I can make people feel things that maybe they haven't felt before?

对。

Mhmm.

我能帮人们表达出那种他们一直想说却说不出来的感受。

I can help people put, you know, yeah, describe a feeling that they've been trying to describe, but they can't.

有时候我自己也说不清楚，但我能用歌声唱给你听。

So and sometimes I I can't even put into words, but I can sing it for you.

你知道的，

You know,

我能

I can

把它们写进歌里。

sing it in a song.

最近我也发现，把想法写下来对我帮助很大，因为我这个人想东西比较慢。

So I I feel like lately too, I've been writing things out helps me a lot too because I'm a very slow processor.

我不确定是不是所有内向害羞的人也都属于想得慢的那种人。

And I don't know if that goes hand in hand with I don't know if all reserved shy people are also slow processors.

想得慢。

Slow processor.

明白了。

Okay.

你觉得你自己算害羞或者内向吗？

And would you say you're shy slash reserved?

不算。

No?

好的。

Okay.

不算。

No.

他们没这么说过。

I don't they say that.

是的。

Yeah.

但我确实想得比较慢。

But I am a slower processor.

这点毫无疑问。

That's for sure.

那我正好三样都占了。

So I have so I have all all three then.

对。

Yeah.

内向、拘谨、反应慢。

Shy, reserved, slow,

处理速度慢。

processing.

声音真好听。

Amazing voice.

明白了。

Got it.

是的。

Yeah.

这样就平衡了。

It balances.

确实如此。

It really does

刚好凑齐。

for out.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但说实话，把事情写下来真的帮了我很多，甚至以前也是，我不确定这还算不算建议了。

But but, yeah, writing things out has really helped me even honestly, like even before, I don't know if this is even advice anymore.

我只是想说，其实没那么重要。

I'm just more speaking about It doesn't matter.

我们只是在聊天而已。

We're just talking.

每当我快要打电话，或者知道得跟人谈点什么的时候，我都会先写成一封信的形式。

My, even when I'm about to have some kind of phone call or I know I'm gonna, you know, or I need to talk to somebody about something, I'll write it out in, like, letter form.

光是写下来，就已经让我感觉好很多了。

And that already just helps me.

我写完就完事了，根本不用再看，但它能让我理清思路，也让我更有信心。

I'll just write it out and then I don't even have to look at it again and it just kinda, you know, gets my my wheels turning and makes me feel a little more confident.

所以你是提前把要说的话写下来？

So you write out what you're gonna say ahead of time?

对。

Yeah.

即使我不说出口，写下来也能帮我理清思路，因为我脑子里总是乱糟糟的。

Even if I don't end up saying it, it just it helps me streamline my thoughts because I think I just have so much going on up here at all times.

而且我这人爱想太多，总想着：好吧。

And the, you know, the overthinker in me wants to be like, okay.

不能这么说，不然会引发别的事，别人可能会这么想。

Well, you can't say that because then, you know, that'll lead to this or someone will think this.

但其实这些都是没必要的胡思乱想。

And it's just it's all it's all nonsense.

但我

But I

我也这么觉得，确实如此。

I share this belief like you Yeah.

如果你能提前把想说的话写下来，会有一种特别的效果。

That if you're able to write it out ahead of time Mhmm.

它有时候能突然让你豁然开朗，出乎意料地清晰起来。

There's something about it that can click the light bulb in a way you didn't expect Yeah.

换个角度来展开对话。

To approach a conversation from a different advantage.

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，我有时候甚至会写上一大段文字。

Honestly, sometimes I've even I've even written out a long paragraph.

结果写完才发现，其实根本没必要谈这一趟。

And then by doing so, I've realized, oh, I don't even need to have this conversation anymore.

我只是需要把心里的东西写出来，理清楚而已。

I just needed to write out and process whatever this is.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，不谈反而更好。

And I actually think it'd be better if I don't have this conversation.

这太有道理了。

This is so good.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的帮了我大忙，让我能把心里的想法都倒出来。

It has it has helped me a lot to to just get out my thoughts.

我觉得写歌也是一样的道理。

I think it goes with songwriting too.

就是得有个出口，有个地方能把这些情绪都释放出来，我觉得这点很重要。

Just kind of having an having an outlet, having a place to just, yeah, let all of that out, I think is important.

你得把这些东西都排解出去。

You gotta flush it out.

对。

Yeah.

因为我知道，当你能毫无保留地表达时，

Because I I know that what I find is when you're able to no filter

对的。

Mhmm.

就直接写下来。

Just write Mhmm.

或者打字，把所有想法都倒出来。

Or type, get it all out Mhmm.

然后你就能看看，我真有必要和别人谈这件事吗？

Then you're able to look at, do I even need to have this conversation?

是的。

Yeah.

我可能根本不需要说这些。

I probably don't need to say this.

现在我把它写在眼前，而不是闷在心里，就会觉得，确实没必要。

Now that I've looked at it, like, in front of me and it's not in my head, it's like, yeah.

那不是

That's not

说出口就变味了。

Comes out wrong.

这纯粹是我自己用的。

It's the that's just for me.

不是给他们看的。

It's not for them.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这是处理对话特别聪明的方式。

And I think that's a really smart way of handling conversation.

这对害羞的人有帮助吗？

So is that has that helped you as a shy person?

有帮助。

It has.

是的

Yeah.

当涉及到和人交流，或者有什么事压在我心里时，我必须把情绪释放出来，或者找人聊聊。

And when it comes to, yeah, communicating with people or if something is burdening me, I have to, you know, let it out or consider talking to someone about it.

是的

Yeah.

把所有这些写下来，确实帮了我很多。

That that's definitely helped me just writing it all out.

这么一说，我都想重新开始写日记了。

And I should probably this is making me wanna, like, journal again.

我现在大部分事情都

I do so much on

在手机上做。

Phone.

最近我都在手机上处理这些事。

On my phone these days.

哦，是

Oh, is

这就是我们手里的东西吗

it that's what we got

在我们手上。

in our hands.

我知道。

I know.

但这让我想起以前小时候我经常写日记，不过现在 yeah。

But it's it's makes me miss, you know, I used to journal all the time growing up and but it's yeah.

大概就是同样的道理吧。

It's that that same concept, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这很容易就变成写作或者写歌，或者

I think it that it can easily turn into writing or songwriting or

对。

Right.

还有别的吗？

Anything else.

这真让人没想到。

So I that's that's wild.

我根本想不到你会这么内向。

I'd I would have never pegged you for somebody who was super Really?

害羞？

Shy.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

我确实挺内向的，这也很合理，毕竟你看到的都是我在舞台上的样子。

I really like It makes sense because, yeah, you see me on stage.

说来有趣，我老公在我们约会之前就说过，他对我有个印象，因为那时候我们刚认识，我已经有点粉丝了。

It's funny, my husband even said before we started dating, he he had this, you know, idea of me because he saw that I I had kind of a following at that point when we met.

对啊。

He yeah.

他觉得我性格挺外向的。

He just assumed I was, you know, kinda outgoing.

在舞台上。

On the stage.

在舞台上。

On stage.

觉得我关心那些艺人通常在乎的东西，但那都是舞台上的假象，可能还带点明星脾气之类的。

Cared about, you know, whatever, like, whatever artists care about and somewhere not in reality, you know, and maybe a little bit of a diva or something.

后来他真正了解了我，就明白了。

And then he obviously got to know me, and he was like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

显然你并不是那样的人。

That's you're obviously not like that.

不过，对，他当时就以为我比较外向，大概是因为我在台上会变得更自信吧，我也不知道为什么。

But, yeah, he just he just assumed that I was more outgoing because I guess I I guess I kinda turn into a more confident version of myself on I don't know why that is.

我的意思是，

I mean,

艺术家嘛，这种情况挺常见的。

artists though that that that's that happens.

他们平时很害羞，但到了舞台上就会变成另一个人。

They're very shy and then they turn into something else.

或者换句话说，他们会展现出一种灵感迸发的状态。

Or or, like, in in other words, some inspired comes out of them.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，认识你这段时间里。

I mean, in a little time I've known you.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，你的嗓音范围特别广，声音可以一下子变得很有力量。

You know, one is, you know, when you have your voice can, in incredible range, so your voice can get big.

没错。

Right.

你还有那一头大卷发，所以别人第一眼就容易想，哦，这人肯定天生就这样。

You have big hair, you know, like, and so it's easy to be like, okay, this is just by instinct of Yeah.

我一猜就知道你是谁了。

Oh, I think I know who this is.

但真正了解之后，才发现他们其实

And then you actually get to know them and they go

没错。

Right.

嗨，我是托里。

Hey, I'm Tori.

就是我。

It's it's And me.

是的。

Yeah.

这是我的托里嗓音。

This is my Tori voice.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

差不多就是这样。

Something like that.

你觉得你这一生中，是不是这样的人？

Would you say you're somebody who, throughout your life Mhmm.

你一直是个讨好型的人吗？

Has been like a people pleaser type?

我是说，确实如此。

I mean, yeah.

我觉得过去是这样的。

I think in the past, yes.

我之前提到过，特别渴望得到别人的认可，甚至包括父母的认可，因为我排行最大。

I mean, when I was talking about, you know, craving that approval from other people or even like approval from my parents or because I'm I'm the oldest.

我也有。

I've

只有两个。

just two.

我还有一个弟弟。

There's there's one younger brother.

你呢？

What about you?

我是四个孩子里最大的。

I'm the oldest of four.

哦，真的吗。

Oh, wow.

但我觉得要是只有两个孩子，我总会觉得自己是老大。

But I feel like if it was just two, I would always be like, oh, you know, I'm the oldest.

是的。

Yeah.

以前年纪小的时候，我总得强调这一点，现在不用了。

I guess as as old as before, I don't I don't have to say it.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得也是。

I I think yeah.

我以前真的很在意别人怎么看我，所以总想讨好他们，努力获得认可，不管那意味着什么。

I I definitely used to care more about what what people thought and therefore, you know, wanted to please them and and, yeah, gain approval, whatever whatever that meant.

尤其是涉及到我的音乐的时候。

Especially I think when it came to my music.

但现在，当我成为母亲后，突然就不在乎别人怎么想了，这对我来说是全新的体验。

But now it's kind of a new thing for me stepping into motherhood and really not caring about what people think.

就是从我生下他的那一刻开始的。

It's like, right when I had him.

到现在已经七个月了，我完全不在乎别人怎么说了。

So it really has seven months of not caring what people mean.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

不过我觉得，真正开始有这种转变，是在我三十岁左右，迈入三十岁的时候。

But no, I I think the first wave of it was when I turned 30 or something about stepping into my thirties.

我对自己是谁更有把握了。

I felt more sure of of who I was.

甚至开始接纳自己的害羞，就随它去吧。

It goes back to even like owning the shyness and just be like, whatever.

我是说，没错。

I'm Yeah.

你知道，这就是我的性格。

You know, this is my personality.

喜欢就接受，不喜欢就算了。

Take it or leave it.

我不会再为了任何人去迎合某个框框。

I'm not gonna try to fit in this box for for anybody.

那才是第一波转变。

And then that was the first wave of it.

而现在，当了妈妈之后，我才真正明白过来。

And then now, you know, becoming a mom, I'm like, oh, okay.

现在呢，

Now there's

是啊。

Yeah.

对我们来说，就是

For us, it was like

我家人，你

my family, you

明白吧？

know?

是啊。

Yeah.

当然了。

For sure.

没错。

Yeah.

对我们来说，西拉根本不在乎别人怎么想。

For us, it was definitely Sierra didn't really care about when anybody thought.

那时候她就是觉得，我有了孩子，这事儿就是我唯一在乎的。

Like, at that point in time, she's like, I just I have this child and this is all I care about.

没错。

Yes.

我的头发就随便扎个乱发髻。

My hair is gonna be in a messy bun.

谁都不见。

Have nobody.

我根本不在乎。

I don't care.

就是这样。

Exactly.

我去买东西，也不管别人怎么看。

I'm gonna go to store, I don't care.

然后对我来说，自从儿子稍微大一点之后，我就总是忍不住哭。

And then for me, as soon as our son's more like, I'm just, I just cry, like all the time.

我觉得爸爸们的感情特别真实。

It's just, I think dad feels are real.

我也不知道为什么。

I don't know what it is.

确实特别真实。

So real.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

但突然间你就能看书了，然后你就-

But all of a sudden you can read a book and you just-

一切都变得很奇怪。

Just everything gets weird.

不一样了。

Different.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

没错

Yeah.

这其实是一件很美好的事。

Which is a which is a beautiful thing.

在开始之前，我想花点时间跟大家说说Upwork。

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这正是Upwork能帮到你的地方。

That's exactly what Upwork does.

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我自己就多次在设计和网站方面用过Upwork，体验非常棒。

I've used Upwork personally many times when it comes to specifically to design and website, and it's been awesome.

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The best thing about it is that it's all in one place.

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You can search by category, you can search by type, you can go in and look at what they charge, they'll look at their whole portfolio, you get to see everything you'd want to see and want to know to feel confident that this person can do the job you want them to do.

所以，与其费劲去发个大广告、试图雇佣一堆人，Upwork 能帮你省去这些时间。它会告诉你：嘿，如果你想找某个承包商，做你想做的事，而且他们能完成这类工作，那就在这儿。你可以直接在平台上付款，处理账单和发票，这让事情变得简单多了。

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所以，如果你像我一样，可能需要在生活中找点人来分担一些工作。

So if you're like me, you probably need some help delegating something in your life.

如果你需要帮忙，Upwork 就是你的不二之选。

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That is upwork.com, upwork.com.

接下来我们继续。

And now let's keep going.

很高兴听到你已经走出了讨好型人格的困扰，因为确实有很多人在这方面很挣扎。

Well, I'm I'm glad to hear that this transition you've had with people pleasing, because there are people out there who really struggle with that.

是的

Yeah.

总想着按别人的要求做事，把自己的价值完全系在别人身上。

That idea of doing what somebody else wants them to do and tying their identity to, tying their self worth to somebody else.

我觉得你就是一个例子，不一定彻底改变了整个模式，但你确实走到了一个不一样的境地。

And I feel like you've you're somebody who is an example of not necessarily that you've changed the whole dynamic, but you've grown into a different different place.

对

Mhmm.

现在回过头看，你在沟通方式上，有哪些以前深信不疑的东西是后来放下的？

What's something that you've had to unlearn about the way you communicate now?

我能反过来问你同样的问题吗？说不定能给我一些启发。

Can I ask you the same question and see if it inspires me?

好，就这么办。

Let's do it.

好的

Yeah.

你在沟通方式上，有什么是必须放下的？

What's something you've had to unlearn in how you communicate?

我得学会，我的想法并不总是最对的。

I've had to unlearn that my opinion's not always the best opinion.

哦。

Oh.

而且必须这么做，这很好。

And having to That's good.

多听听别人的声音。

Invite more voices

是的。

Yeah.

不只是做决定时，连生活中也要多接纳不同的声音。

Into not only my decision making, but also into my into my life.

我觉得这其实挺容易的。

I think it's real easy.

说实话，有时候独自一人坐在桌边，就像在你内心深处独处，反而更让人安心，托里。

And honestly, sometimes more comfortable, Tori, to sit at a table alone, like, at the end of your mind.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这样更安全。

Because it's it's safer.

我明白了，你得让桌边的座位有人坐。

And I learned that you have to fill seats at your table.

对。

Mhmm.

到底谁值得坐在你生命中的这张桌旁呢？

Of, like, who's gonna be who's worth the seat in your life?

你知道的吧？

You know?

谁才真正配得上这个位置？

Who's who's worth that?

这影响了我与人沟通的方式

And that affects how I communicate

对

Mhmm.

我也更倾向于把事情控制得紧紧的

And the way that I try to keep things very tight.

对

Mhmm.

以前我总想跟每个人都做朋友

Before, I tried to be a friend to everybody.

现在我还是很友善

And now I'm still friendly.

是的

Yeah.

但这并不意味着我们非得做朋友不可

But that doesn't mean we always have to be friends.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你把朋友保持得很少。

Because you keeping your friends few.

是的。

Yeah.

同样地，你可以联系到这一点，比如在新约里，耶稣经常公开出现，但祂真正做的是什么？

In the same way, you could tie that to I mean, how much of even in and I know with our faith, of the New Testament is Jesus going to be public, and then what is He doing?

祂会选择退隐。

He's going to withdraw.

祂就像说：我先走了。

He's like, I'm out.

你得去找祂。

Have to go find Him.

他们得去寻找祂。

They have to go look for Him.

对吧？

Right?

所以越是公开露面，就越需要抽身退隐。

And so it's a lot of that, of almost the more public you become, the greater the need there is to withdraw.

你得学会放松自己。

You need to do the cool downs.

说得对。

There you go.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

就是这么回事。

Exactly.

正是这样。

That's what that is.

你得好好学学托莉·凯莉的《如何让生活慢下来》。

You need a lot of how to Cool Down Your Life by Tori Kelly.

哦，那是我的回忆录吗？

Oh, is that my memoir?

那是你下一本回忆录。

That's your next memoir.

没错。

That's right.

我正好问你这个问题，真好，它让我开始思考了。

That actually, I'm glad I asked you that because that did get me thinking.

很好。

Good.

关于我不得不放下的那些东西。

For what I've had to unlearn.

我几乎觉得，这恰恰是另一面——我从小就觉得自己的意见不重要。

I almost feel like it's kind of the other side of that where I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter.

所以我得重新学习，明白自己确实有话要说。

And I think I've had to unlearn that and realize you do have something to say.

你也能为对话贡献自己的想法。

You can offer something to the conversation.

很多时候，我参加谈话时都会退到一边，有点紧张。

Because I think a lot of times I would be in a conversation and just, you know, kinda sit back and be a little intimidated.

觉得我说的没别人说的那么好。

Like, okay, what I what I have to say is not as good as what they're saying.

所以我就干脆不说了。

So let me just sit back.

但我确实学会了好好倾听，我觉得这特别重要。

And I I did learn to become a good listener in that way, which I think is very important

对你来说是这样。

to you.

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得关键在于平衡——既要当个好听众，也要打破我这辈子一直骗自己的那个谎言：你觉得你对对话没什么可贡献的。

I think there's this balance of, like, being a good listener, but also, yeah, having to remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is, you know, you don't have anything to offer the conversation.

别人只知道你是歌手。

People just know you as a singer.

所以你就只管唱你的小歌就行了。

So just sing your little songs.

他们只有在你唱歌的时候才有反应，至于你平时聊天，根本没人在意。

That's when they react, you know, they react when you sing, not when you're just, you know, talking in normal setting.

所以我得重新学习，意识到：其实我确实有话可说。

So I think I've had to unlearn that and realize like, oh, I do have something to say.

哪怕只是很小的一件事，也不用非得主导全场，但至少对自己经历的故事、走过的路，能更有信心一点。

Even if it's just something small, it doesn't I don't have to overpower the conversation, but, you know, just being more confident in the the story that I've been given, the things I've gone through.

没人能夺走你的故事，也没人能否定你那些真实经历。

Like, no no one can no one can take away your story like that or or or, you know, discredit things

他们没法否定你的感受。

that they can't invalidate your experience.

否定我的经历。

Invalidate.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我觉得，带着这种认知去参与各种对话，真的帮了我很多。

So I think having that, you know, and and carrying that with me through different conversations has has helped.

我脑子里现在想的就是这个。

I this is where my brain's going.

好的。

Okay.

你想跟我一起去吗？

You wanna come with me?

好。

Okay.

你刚才说的，我就坐在桌边，我知道自己有话要说。

So what you just described of here I am at the table, and I know I have something to say.

对。

Yeah.

但我心里有个障碍，觉得他们比我懂得多。

But I'm dealing with that that mental block of, now they know better than me.

我可能不该开口。

I probably shouldn't say anything.

我还是保持沉默吧。

I'm just gonna be quiet.

是的。

Yeah.

有人在听，他们也在想：Tori，你是怎么克服这种感觉的？

There's somebody who's listening who feels that, and they go, how how, Tori, how did you get over that?

所以我想把这个问题拆开说清楚。

So I wanna break this down.

好的。

Okay.

咱们稍微讲点科学原理。对。

We're gonna get science y for a second Yeah.

我们可以用一种循序渐进的方法来告诉这个人。

On kind of a step by step approach that we could tell this person.

好的。

Okay.

所以我听到你说了第一点，就是识别出自己正在退缩的时刻。

So what I heard you, one, say is identify when you are reserving.

就像你首先要承认，或者说意识到，自己心里有话想说。

Like you first acknowledge, like recognizing, becoming self aware that I have something to say.

我在憋着。

I'm holding.

而且我一直在忍着。

And I'm holding.

我回来了。

I'm back, yeah.

就是要意识到那个时刻。

Is to acknowledge that moment.

对。

Yeah.

第二点，你怎么克服你所说的那种阻碍？

Two is how do you get over the you called it a a block.

你是怎么跨过那个障碍的？

How'd you get over that?

我觉得首先要意识到，每个人都是平等的。

I think realizing that one, that everybody is equal.

我觉得关键在于明白，我们大家都一样，没有人比别人更高一等。

I feel I feel like realizing that we're all like, nobody is better than another person.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以这是一种心态，你值得出现在这个房间里。

So it's a mindset kind of you deserve to be in the room.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

这挺有意思的，因为我现在仔细想想，别人可能会觉得我是个高高在上的人，你知道的，确实如此。

Because it's interesting because as I'm thinking about it now, people would probably look at me as like someone above, you know, which is so yeah.

挺讽刺的是，我一开始觉得自己没什么可说的。

Funny because I I'm like, you know, coming in being like, I had nothing to say.

但后来一想，等等，台下那么多人看着我，我是真真切切站在舞台上。

But then like, wait, people are looking at me on stage, you know, I'm in very I'm in a literal sense.

我那时候觉得

I'm like

但你在那里其实有很多话要说。

And you have a lot to say there.

高高在上。

Elevated.

对啊。

Yeah.

我在那儿其实有很多话想说。

I have a lot to say there.

那个地方对我来说像是一个安全的空间。

And that is kind of a safe space for me.

我觉得在那里更自在，也更愿意表达。

Feel like where I feel comfortable, more comfortable sharing.

不过呢，我的挑战一直是在普通的对话场合里。

But yeah, my my challenge has always been more in the, you know, the normal conversational place.

但我认为，让我突破这一点的关键，就是意识到我们其实都不懂多少东西。

But yeah, I think that's one aspect of how I got over it was just realizing we all don't like, no one really knows anything.

别人可能懂一些，但我觉得最有力的一句话就是：我不知道。

People might know some things, but it's, I think one of the most powerful phrases we could say is just, I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这真的让人轻松多了。

I think it's really freeing.

比如，我允许自己既有想法可以分享，也能坦然接受不知道的时候。

And even even like allowing myself, like one, yes, having something to say and offer the conversation, but but also being okay with not knowing.

如果有人问我问题，有时候就是，我真的不知道。

Like, if someone asks me a question, you know, some yeah.

有时候就直接说：我不知道。

Sometimes it's just, I don't know.

你觉得呢？

What what do you think about that?

我刚才好像也对你这么说了。

You know, and kind of I think I just did that to you too.

我没有答案，要不你先说说看？

I don't have the answer Will you answer it first?

所以，对自己更宽容一点，就是这样。

So, just kind of being more kind to myself and yeah.

意识到我们其实都在同一条船上。

Realizing that we're all we're all kind of in the same boat.

我越明白这一点，就越觉得大家都是在摸索前行，彼此的共同点远多于不同之处。

The more I realized that, and we're all trying to figure it out, and we all have a lot more in common than we than we, you know, don't have in common.

我觉得这就是我最初的出发点。

I think that has been like my my starting place.

真是松了一口气。

Nice exhale moment.

明白了。

Okay.

首先，要意识到自己什么时候在压抑表达。

So we have we have one, recognize when you're holding back.

对。

Yeah.

第二点，我理解你的意思是，要克服这种心理障碍，首先得有这种心态：你值得在这里。

Two, to get over this mental block is what I hear you saying, it's, one, there's a mindset of, hey, you deserve to be here.

对。

Yeah.

如果你不配，你根本不会在这儿。

You wouldn't be here if you didn't.

对。

Yeah.

那具体来说，你该怎么行动呢？

And you like, how do you practically, physically do it?

我觉得你得主动开口，哪怕只是说一句很小的话。

My guess is you have to choose to say something, even if it's small.

哪怕只是很小的一句。

Even if it's small.

可能就是最简单的一句话、一个评论，你总得从嘴里说出点什么来。

So it just maybe the smallest sentence, comment, like you have to say something out of your mouth.

是的。

Yeah.

然后试着放个气球，看看自己会不会被击垮。

And then as a test balloon to see like, did I survive?

明白了。

Okay.

对，其实我之前担心他们根本没在听我说话。

Yeah, actually, yeah, the fear that I had that they weren't listening to me.

是的。

Yeah.

不，他们其实很在意。

No, they actually do care.

是的。

Yeah.

你只有不断证明给自己看，才能真正往前走。

And you can only, you know, make progress by proving it proving it to yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

你也有过这种情况吗？

Have you had to do that?

需要练习。

Practice.

对。

Yeah.

这还得看你在什么样的人群里，当然了。

And it depends on, you know, of course, the the group of people that you're in.

没错。

Right.

有些人本来就更爱聊天，也更感兴趣，我觉得。

You know, some people are more conversational and and more interested, I guess.

但就算这样，我觉得我至少学会了一点：在对话里自然地参与，但不会硬插话。

But even just that, like, I I think I've on one end, it's like, yeah, I've learned to offer something to the conversation with without forcing it though.

我会这么说。

I will say that.

我觉得如果我只是勉强开口说点什么，对我没什么帮助。

I I don't think it's helpful for me if I'm just kind of, okay, let me just try to say something to like

变得太强势。

Getting aggressive.

克服这种恐惧。

Get over this fear.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得有时候你得等那个合适的时机，自然就能感觉到什么时候该说。

Like, I think sometimes you just have to wait for that right moment and you'll know, like, when when it feels natural and and organic.

在开始之前，我得跟你们说说 Cozy Earth。

Before we get going, I need to tell you about Cozy Earth.

如果你一直听这个播客，你就知道我有多喜欢Cozy Earth。

Now, if you've been a listener of the podcast, you know that I love Cozy Earth.

为什么呢？

Why?

因为他们家每一样东西都做得顶级精致。

Because everything they do is top notch premium.

我这个人穿衣不喜欢太花哨，也不喜欢太随意，就想要那种刚刚好的感觉。

I'm somebody that likes to wear not not something that's overly, you know, fancy and also not too casual, somewhere in in the middle.

而Cozy Earth每次都能正好踩中我的喜好。

And Cozy Earth hits that for me every single time.

他们的衣服已经很棒了，

Now, clothing is not just amazing.

但不止是衣服，他们的睡衣也是一绝。

It is also their pajamas.

还有他们的竹纤维床品，晚上睡觉特别凉爽舒适。

It is also their bamboo bedding, which keeps me cool at night.

还有他们的毛巾。

It is their towels.

连他们的居家拖鞋都这么棒。

It is their house shoes for goodness sake.

我妈妈特别喜欢他们的睡衣。

My mom is crazy about their pajamas.

他们的每一样东西质量都很高，说实话，想找真正舒服的衣物，这可不容易。

Everything they do is good quality, and that is really hard to find, in my opinion, when you're asking for really comfortable clothes.

去 cozyearth.com 看看吧。

So go to cozy earth dot com.

你买啥都不会错。

Whatever you get, it's not gonna steer you wrong.

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接下来，我们继续。

And now, let's keep going.

我一直说，从小处着手。

I always said start small.

对。

Yeah.

从小事做起，先说那么一点点，这样挺好。

You know, starting small with that piece, being able to say just a little bit.

对。

Yeah.

我特别喜欢这一点，因为不管做什么，你都得先行动起来。

Which I really like because I think that's for anything, it's just you have to do something.

对。

Yeah.

如果你一直憋着不说，就永远没法把它表达出来。

If you always keep it in, you'll never be able to push that out.

所以别以为你得在开会或谈话时，带着一套完整得像画册一样的想法。

So it's a don't think that you have to come into the meeting or conversation with a beautiful, you know, picture book worth of thought.

有点小想法就够了，没什么大不了的。

It's okay just to have something small.

对。

Yes.

这让我想起另一件事，对我帮助特别大，就是多提问，我相信你也是。

And that reminds me of the other thing I was that has really unlocked a lot for me, which is asking questions, I'm sure

说来听听。

Tell me more.

你显然在这方面特别在行。

I mean, you're obviously really good at it

因为咱们

because So we're

我学到的一点是，如果我觉得自己没什么能贡献的，就不敢开口。

one thing I have learned, if I don't you know, I don't feel like I can offer anything to the conversation.

有时候我觉得他们在聊的话题太深奥了，但哪怕如此，我只要问一个问题，也能加入进去。

I'm you know, maybe maybe I feel like they're talking about things that are, like, too smart for me or whatever it is, I can still be a part of the conversation by asking a question.

其实，保持好奇心本身就已经为我打开很多门了，因为我觉得我们一直在谈的，是怎么克服害羞，勇敢说出自己的想法，真正参与对话。

And even even, like, just being a curious person in general has unlocked so much for me because I think a lot of what we're talking about is like, you know, how do I get over this shyness and, you know, say like, say things that I feel and be a part of the convo.

但我们还没提到一点：有时候，单纯的好奇心就够了。

But what we haven't really touched on is sometimes it's just being curious, you know?

这种好奇，就是你参与其中的方式，它会为你打开大门。

And that is your way of or that opens the door to, you know, be a part of it.

这真的帮我克服了害羞和觉得自己不够格的感觉，因为我会想，我只是好奇，想多听听而已。

I think that that actually has really, really helped me get over any sort of shyness or feeling unworthy of being a part because it's like, oh, I'm just, you know, tell me more about that.

我对你的生活真的很感兴趣。

I'm really curious about, you know, your life.

当别人分享故事时，我只要这样回应，就能和他们产生连接——我觉得，这也是成为好听众的关键。

If someone's like sharing their story, I can kind of connect with them by just that's where I think the becoming a good listener too.

就像多问问题，好好倾听。

It's like asking questions, listening.

这确实是一项很实用的技能。

It's a real skill.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这些年我一直试着在这方面下功夫。

I've I've I've tried to work on that over the years.

对，多想想能问别人的问题，这对我很有帮助。

But yeah, just thinking of different questions I can ask people has has helped me.

你有没有那种特别常用的问题？

Do you have like a go to question?

我来分享一个我的。

Let me tell you mine.

是的

Yeah.

说说你的吧。

Tell me tell me yours.

我的，嗯，其实算不上一个问题。

My my I guess it's not really a question, actually.

哦。

Oh.

如果我仔细想想的话。

If I'm thinking about it.

那更像是一句话。

It's a statement.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我通常都会说，再多讲讲吧。

It's all usually I like to say, tell me more.

我想这其实就是‘请再多讲讲’的简略说法。

And I guess that's the shortened version of tell me more, please.

也许，这确实是个问题。

Like, maybe that's maybe that's a question.

你能再多讲讲吗？

Can you tell me more?

是的。

Yeah.

你能再多讲讲吗？

Can you tell me more?

我觉得这就是个缩略版。

And I think that's the abbreviated version.

不过，是的。

But Yeah.

说‘再多说点’也是同样的道理。

Same thing with say more Yeah.

或者‘再讲讲’。

Or tell me more.

就是把他们的话多引出来一点。

Just drawing more out of them.

没错。

Exactly.

你平时有没有一句常备在口袋里的问话？

Do you have you have one that you typically like to keep in your pocket?

我喜欢用一个挺有趣的，比如说：

I like oh, this is kind of a funny one.

巡演的时候，我们互相问：你有什么大胆观点？

On tour, we've been we've been asking each other, what's your hot take?

就是，你有没有什么特别的观点？

Like, do you have any hot takes?