别让情绪做决定——与艾玛·格林德一起

我认为你不可能又摇摆不定又如此坚定，那样行不通。

I don't think that you can be flip floppy and firm like that, that's not gonna work.

你必须非常非常一致。

You have to be really super consistent.

要有一点公平，我觉得你明白，我认为这两者是相辅相成的，因为人们需要知道他们在整个过程中处于什么位置？

An element of fairness, so I think that you, you know, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand because people need to understand where am I in all of this?

比如，哪些部分是我的责任？

Like what bit is my responsibility?

哪些部分是，当我说公平时，你知道，世界上很少有公平的事，但当你保持一致性并且对人公平时，你就能够做到，你知道，我做过每一份工作，杰斐逊。

What part is, what part like, and when I say fairness, because you know, again, like so little in the world is fair, but when you have consistency and when you're fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson.

我真的是一步步爬上来的人。

It's like I really was a person that worked their way up.

我从时尚公关的储物间开始，打包箱子，打包样品。

I started in a cupboard in fashion PR, I packed the boxes, I packed the samples.

我写便条。

I wrote the notes.

然后我到了一张办公桌前。

Then I got onto a desk.

接着，你知道的，你就会在时装秀后台跑来跑去，比如铺地板。

Then, you know, you kind of, like, running around back show at fashion shows and, like, laying flooring.

我做过生产方面的工作。

I worked in production.

我一路上做了每一件事，这让我对工作中、生产中，或者现在这些服装公司的每个人所承担的角色都怀有难以置信的尊重。

It's like I did every single thing on the way up, which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a right now, you know, it's like they're clothing organizations.

我理解初级采购员的工作，因为我曾经也做过。

I understand the junior merchant's job because I was there.

我真的懂这些事。

It's like I I know that stuff.

我认为，当你作为一个坚定的人，同时对每个人所贡献的价值抱有理解和尊重时，人们就会感到被看见，这是非常重要的。

And I think that when you are a firm person, coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place where people feel seen.

而且很多时候，工作本身并不公平，对吧？

And oftentimes the work isn't fair, right?

这种感觉永远不会出现。

It never feels that way.

但如果你觉得自己被看见、被欣赏，并且有人理解你独特的能力，那么我认为这会改变一切。

But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything.

我认为，我之所以能走到今天，是因为人们明白我并没有得到任何东西，我是靠努力争取来的，我感激他们，也理解他们。

And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything, that I worked for it and I appreciate them and I have an understanding of them.

因此，我认为人们会为我竭尽全力，为我需要的事情付出，因为他们内心深处有这种感受。

And in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically.

我要回到我们之前讨论过的部分，具体谈谈作为女性如何直接表达、坚定立场、展现抱负，因为这些事情我几乎无法像别人那样表达得那么好。

I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about, specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a woman, again, because these are things that I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can.

所以我的问题是，你见过所有这些——你上过《鲨鱼坦克》，当你看到那些男性说，这就是做商业的方式。

And so my question is, you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank, when you've seen all these men, okay, saying this is how to do business.

这就是该怎么做。

This is how to do it.

而你进来时心想，是的，我同样能做好，而且还能同时应付五盘事情。

And you come in here going, yeah, I can do it just as well and and be able to spend five plates at the same time.

你当时想对那些男人说什么？

What what do what do you want to say to those men in the moment?

他们到底怎么了？你知道吗，关于这一点，有没有一种特别的方法？让我问一下，我现在之所以在说这个，是因为我极度渴望帮助人们，尤其是女性，更直接地表达自己，但有时候我觉得自己没说到点子上，那是因为我还没经历过她们的经历，没站在她们的位置上。

What what are they what are we, you know, when it comes to is there, like, an unlock to say this is a special way or is let me ask, I'm gonna I'm talking right now because I I I find the subject I I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women, speak with more directness, and there's sometimes I feel like I miss the point, and it's because I haven't been where they've been, and I haven't stood where they stood.

这有时让我感到无能为力。

That sometimes makes me feel helpless.

所以当你给女性建议时，你会告诉她们什么？

And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them?

我漏掉了什么？

What am I missing?

不，首先，你竟然会这样去思考，这个想法本身就是一个极好的起点。

No, well, first of all, idea that you even think about it like that, think is such an excellent starting point.

我在《从自己开始》这本书中写到的，就是不要让情绪主导你的决策。

And what I wrote about in the book, in Start with Yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making.

我认为对很多女性来说，这几乎是默认的，对吧？

I think for a lot of women, is like a default, right?

我们是讨好型人格。

We are people pleasers.

我们对他人如何看待或评价我们有很多恐惧。

We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or valued.

我们有很多内疚感，对吧？

We have a lot of guilt, right?

比如母亲内疚，这确实是真实存在的。

Like mom guilt is an actual real thing.

因此，在这本书中，我谈论的很多内容都是关于情绪如何左右你的决策。

And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making.

我想传达的核心观点是，女性常常被社会条件所制约，避免那些真正能带来财富、知名度和领导机会的行为。

And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth, that create visibility, that create leadership opportunities.

而男性在表达自己或管理情绪时，并没有面临类似的困难，这些也不会像对女性那样阻碍他们的决策。

And men don't have quite the same kind of difficulties in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way.

因此，我想要做的是，彻底拆解我们被灌输的关于这些问题的诸多谎言。

And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff.

这应该是一剂给有抱负的女性的清醒剂，因为如果你想要权力、金钱、事业、家庭，以及这一切，你就不能靠温和的野心来获得。

This is supposed to be like a wake up call for ambitious women because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want a family and you want all of those things, you're not gonna get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition.

我们必须有胆识。

We have to have audacity.

我们必须接受这样一个事实：总会有一些不适感，这种不适可能来自你身边的人。

We have to get okay with the fact that there's gonna be some discomfort, that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you.

杰斐逊，现在最重要的是，我想明确一点：男性和女性都可以认同这一点，但我认为，我们迫切需要更多女性进入权力职位，不仅是在商业领域，更是在我们的经济、政府和政治中。

And and Jefferson, what is important right now and what I wanna be clear about, and men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but in our economies, in our governments, politically.

这一点对我来说非常清楚。

It's really clear to me.

我认为，文化中存在一套规则，让女性产生这样的感受——这些想法根深蒂固，对吧？

And I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that women feel and they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right?

就像那些根深蒂固的想法一样。

Like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist.

因此，我想做的是成为可能的榜样，因为我真的相信：你无法成为自己从未见过的东西。

And so what I wanted to do was be, you know, a model for what is possible because I really believe like you can't be what you don't see.

如果我们不断被灌输这种‘做个好女人’就必须做这做那的想法，这真的会阻碍女性的发展。

And if we're constantly put this kind of idea of like to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do, that's really gonna hold women back.

所以我试图坦诚地面对：要实现目标，我们需要在自身行为上做出哪些改变，以及在表达我们真正想要的东西时，沟通方式必须如何调整，才能真正推动观念的转变。

So what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to to kind of shift the mentality, like, really forward.

这正是我目前最关心的事情。

Like, that's what I really care about right now.

在我们继续之前，我

Before we keep going, I

我想跟你聊聊LMNT。

wanna talk to you about LMNT.

我知道，在我忙碌的生活方式中，有时很难保证充足的水分摄入。

I know that in my busy lifestyle, there's something that has to do with hydration that I cannot seem sometimes to get ahold of.

我只是在喝足够的水。

I'm just drinking enough water.

我的身体却会说：咖啡？

My body will just go, Coffee?

你应该喝咖啡。

You should have coffee.

我的身体还说：但请给我水。

And my body also says, But please give me water.

因此，我们家的一个解决方案是LMNT。

And so one solution, big solution that we've had in my family is LMNT.

LMNT提供电解质。

LMNT provides electrolytes.

它就像一个小包装。

It's like this little packet.

它们有多种形式，但我喜欢的是这种小盐包，撕开后倒进水里。

They come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water.

我只用一半，这样不会太咸。

I do about half, so it's not too salty.

我喜欢柠檬味，无论运动后、运动中、跑步后，或者外出时，我都特别喜欢。

I like the lemonade flavor and I love it anytime after a workout, during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go.

我喜欢是因为它完全不会弄脏。

I like because it's just really no mess.

现在我的孩子们也很喜欢。

Now my kids, they love it.

他们管它叫咸水。

They call it salty water.

他们特别喜欢气泡版的。

They really like the seltzer version.

我不太喜欢碳酸饮料，但他们喜欢，所以每次得到时他们都特别开心。

I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are, and so they love it every time that they get it.

事实上，他们把它当甜点一样对待，吃完晚饭后，我儿子会央求要喝咸水，所以我们让他喝大约一半，毕竟他睡前不需要喝太多，这就是我们喜欢的方式。

In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert, so they will have dinner, and then my son will beg for salty water, and so we let him have probably about half of it because he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously, and so that's how we love it.

Element 就是为像你我这样有目标的人打造的，他们正在为我的听众提供免费试用装，只要下单就能获得。

Element, it is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you and just like me, And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order.

你可以访问 drinklmnt.com/jefferson，今天就免费试用。

You can head on over to drinklmnt.com/jefferson and try risk free today.

这就是Element，为奔波路上的人提供的智能补水方案。

That's Element, smart hydration for people going places.

现在，回到本期节目。

And now, back to the episode.

让我告诉你，艾玛，你做到了，好吗？

Now let me tell you, Emma, you did it, okay?

你当初想通过这本书实现的所有目标，都完成了。

All that you wanted to do with this book, alright, you did it.

我特别欣赏你在书中做的一件事，我现在手里就拿着这本书，那就是你把旧观念和新观念都列了出来，我觉得这太棒了。

What I really appreciate that you do in your book, and I have it in my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts and the new thoughts, which I thought was great.

不仅让我们清楚地了解了你的来路、你经历的一切，以及你和丈夫、孩子的生活与平衡，更重要的是你如何看待事物、如何行动。我觉得你做得特别出色的地方是：你先列出那些旧观念——我们都懂，就是脑子里那些老套的想法，比如‘我还不够好’‘我必须这么做’‘只有通过Z和Y才能实现X’，然后紧接着，你就提出了全新的想法，就在你讲完这个道理之后，立刻给出新的认知。

It is so good that not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything, is really how you see things and what you do, what I think is so well done, is you will lay out these old thoughts, We all know what that is, these old scripts in our head of I'm not gonna be enough, I have to do this, the only way to achieve x is I have to go through z and y, and then you come up with these new thoughts, and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kind of give the lesson.

而这些新想法，恰恰颠覆了旧的思维模式。

And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head.

你说，你不必那样做，你知道吗？

You say, you don't have to do that, and you know what?

我就是这一点的活生生的例子。

I'm a living example of that.

你在职业、家庭和生活平衡方面的许多教训，都是一系列全新的思维模式，我觉得非常出色。

And So many of your lessons when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are excellent.

我可以和你分享我最喜欢的一个吗？

Can I share with you one of my favorite?

好，说吧。

Yeah, tell me.

好的，这个是你在职业方面提到的一个。

Yeah, okay, so this is one of the ones you have in career.

这个让我深受触动：旧的想法是，你理应得到导师的指导和机会。

And this is one that hit me, is the old thought is you're owed mentorship and opportunity.

所以我以前觉得，确实，在我的人生中，尤其是在法律行业，总有一种感觉，觉得你理应得到某些东西，这种感觉确实存在。

And so I thought, like, okay, that's boy, that's true in my life of times where, at least in the legal profession, it's a sense of you're owed certain things, and that can feel that way.

人们会说：‘哦，我不去争取，因为没人会为我做这些。’

People go, oh, I'm not gonna chase this because nobody's doing it for me.

我想没人愿意帮我，一切都得靠我自己，我不想浪费时间。

I guess nobody wants to help me, It's just all me and I'm not gonna waste the time.

在听完这个故事后，你产生的新想法是：你的职业生涯由你自己创造，责任也在于你自己。

And the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is, you are the creator of your own career and the responsibility for it is yours too.

我想，好吧，艾玛。

And I thought, Okay, Emma.

好了，艾玛。

All right, Emma.

这话说得好。

That was good.

真的很棒，意思是没人会替你做这些，我觉得很多人都是这么想的，我想快速提一下，我相信你是四个孩子里最大的。

It was so good of like, Hey, nobody else is going to do that, and I think a lot of that, and I want to go into this real quick, is you are the oldest, I believe, of four.

是的。

Yeah.

你有一个单亲妈妈。

Okay, and you had a single mother.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的，我很想知道，你现在的这种心态，还有这本书的标题，有多少是受到那个没有完成高中学业、早早去工作、作为四个孩子中最大的那个女孩的影响呢？

Okay, and I'm curious, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book, has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work, was the, I'm the oldest of four, right?

你是吗？

You are?

是的，我是四个孩子中最大的，没错。

Yeah, I'm the oldest of four, yeah.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

这就是为什么我们是志同道合的人。

This is why we're kindred souls.

就是这样，就是这样。

This is it, this is it.

没错。

That's right.

这些早熟的灵魂，对吧？你和我一样，我们其实都没有真正的童年。

These old souls, right, that you didn't really have, like me, like we, we didn't really have it, you didn't really have a childhood.

你知道，人生中有很多空白，你不得不扮演小家长、小配偶，你必须抓住机会，承担起责任，为了眼前的工作而放弃其他乐趣。

Know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the little parent, the little spouse, you had to take on opportunity, you had to take on things, you had to forego other enjoyment for the work that was ahead.

我发现你所传授的很多原则，都是直接源于你的生活经历和你现在做事的方式。

And I find a lot of these principles that you teach are lessons that are straight out of your life and how you do things now.

我觉得你说得完全正确。

I think that you're completely right about that.

你知道，很有趣的是，很多人问我这个问题：天啊，那感觉怎么样？

And you know, it's so interesting because so many people have asked me that question, oh my God, what was it like?

你知道，我从小到大从来没有一刻为自己感到难过。

You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid.

我从来没有觉得这件事是强加给我的，因为在我成长的环境里，你就是帮妈妈做事，还能怎么办呢？

Like I never imagined like that this thing was put upon me because where I come from, like you just helped your mom, like what are gonna do?

你知道，我12岁的时候就能为六个人做一顿饭了，但这项技能真的很有用。

You know, it's like, I could make, you know, a dinner for six people when I was 12, but that's been a really useful skill.

我十二岁的时候就能打扫房子，还能参加家长会。

I could clean the house, I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old.

你知道，我是在一种别无选择的环境中长大的。

You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice.

因此，这种经历带来了一种成熟感。

And so there's a maturity level that comes with that.

当然，这种成长方式也带来了很多不足，比如更少的宽容和更少的美好体验。

There's a lot of, you know, less, I guess, forgiving and less kind of great things that come out of that.

但归根结底，这对我来说是利大于弊的，因为当我进入职场时——而且我辍学很早，所以进入职场时年纪非常小——我已经具备了很高的标准。

But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again was very young because I dropped out of high school, I had such a bar.

我知道如何把事情办成。

Like I knew how to get things done.

我是个非常主动的人，因为从来没人叫醒我上学。

I was such a self starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school.

我得叫醒其他人，准备午餐，熨校服，还要送三个孩子出门。

I had to wake everybody else up and make pack lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house.

有时候我就直接回家看奥普拉节目，根本懒得做别的。

Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah, wouldn't even bother.

但对我而言，这并不是一种负担，而是一种人生起步的优势，因为这就是我的现实。

But you know, for me, it was not an imposition, it was like I got a head start in life because this was my reality.

当我进入职场时，我心想：天啊，我真是太能干了，真的非常能干。

And when I got into the workplace, I was like wow, I am so capable, I'm so bloody capable.

所以我觉得，当我想到自己的孩子时——毕竟我有四个孩子，他们样样都有人替他们安排好。

And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, know, because I do have four and nobody, they have everything done for them.

某种程度上，这剥夺了他们成为真正自我的机会，我知道，我并不是想刻意为孩子制造困难，但有时我觉得我应该让他们多历练，那样他们会更有能力。

And somehow it kind of robs you from like who you're gonna be, you know, and I'm like trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids, but sometimes I think I should do, you know, like they would be so much more capable.

但我觉得，这正是塑造我、让我成就今天这一切的关键，因为根本没有人会来帮我。

But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was no one out there coming to get me.

我对自己负起全部责任。

I took full responsibility for myself.

归根结底，这本书讲的是自我领导力。

And at the end of the day, this book is about self leadership.

这是关于自我负责。

It's about self responsibility.

当你突然有了这种觉悟时，你会发现外面有很多很棒的东西。

And there's really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization.

没有人会来救我。

Like, there was no guy coming to rescue me.

没有老板。

There was no boss.

没有导师。

There was no mentor.

我从奥普拉那里学到了东西。

I learned from Oprah.

我从杂志里的人身上学到了东西。

I learned from people in the magazines.

我从工作经历中的那些上司身上学到了东西。

I learned from like the bosses at my work experience.

当我说学习的时候，意思是我会直接模仿这些人直接照搬。

And when I say learned, like I would just copy those people.

我就是这么做的。

That's what I did.

比如奥普拉说了什么有道理的话，我就会记下来，然后照着抄。

Like Oprah would say something good, I would write it down and I would copy it.

多年来，我总是坐在老板身后，让她能看见我的屏幕。

For years, I sat with my boss like behind me so she could see my screen.

那时候正是网上购物的初期，办公室里的每个人都觉得，你老坐在那个女人前面，妨碍大家上网购物，真是烦人。

And that was the early days of online shopping and everyone in the office was like, how annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman because you can't do your online shopping?

但我却觉得，这太棒了。

And I was like, it's amazing.

我把这个女人说的每句话都记下来，每当她说出精彩的话，我就用在新的业务电话里，你知道吗，根本没人来指导我。

I write down everything this woman says, and when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls and it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me.

所以现在，尤其是当有人问我：‘你能当我的导师吗？’

And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, could you mentor me?

我会这么做，我每天早上上班路上都会打电话，早上8点，我会打电话给某个人聊半小时，但你不能一直等着这些机会，对吧？

And I do, I look up like so many of my staff and so many women, I do a call every day on the way to the office, 08:00, I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour, but you can't wait for that stuff, right?

你不能让这些阻碍你。

You can't let it stop you.

我想确保大家明白的是，我们最大的敌人不能是自己内心的念头。

And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head.

你知道的。

You know?

我有个朋友，我在书里引用了她的话，黛安·冯芙丝汀宝，她说：你一生中最重要的关系，就是你和自己的关系。

Like I have this friend and I quote her in the book, Diane von Furstenberg, and she says, The most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself.

我知道，我能说服自己去做任何事，也能说服自己放弃任何事。

Like I know I can talk myself into or out of anything.

所以当我寻找别人帮助我时，我会想：我最好先帮助自己。

And so when it comes to like looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first.

因为如果哪天真有那么一位神奇的人来帮助我，我希望自己已经做好了准备。

Because if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I wanna be ready.

结果发现，这并不是我的经历。

And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience.

所以我觉得，我这一生一直在自我赋能。

And so it's like, I feel like I have gifted myself myself my whole life.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，我就是我拥有的最好的资源。

It's like, I was the best I had.

所以，我只能接受这一点，因为别无选择。

So it's like, just have to work with that because there was nothing else.

我觉得这并不是一个糟糕的处境。

And I feel like that's not a bad place.

这并不是一件坏事。

It's not a bad thing.

对。

No.

一点也不坏。

Not a bad thing at all.

不。

No.

当我读到你是四个孩子中最大的时，我想，哦，难怪很多事都说得通了——任何一个长子长女都会有那种老成持重的心态，你知道的，父母根本不用吩咐你做事，你都会主动去做。

When I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is making I sense think anybody who's the oldest child, you kind of have that old soul mentality of, you know, your parents didn't have to ask me to do anything, you just did it.

这和最小的孩子截然不同。所以，是的，我能理解这一点。我觉得对我和每个人来说都很有启发的是：如果你认为机会应该自动送到你面前，那这种想法是错误的。

Just was very did different from the youngest So that yeah, relate to that and what I find is so instructive to me and and everyone is that if you think that opportunities should be just put on your plate, You're just, that's the wrong thinking.

这是错误的想法。

It's the wrong thinking.

你得自己去拿盘子，主动去找有食物的地方。

You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food.

你得去行动。

You have to go.

我认为，你必须有一种饥饿感。

And there's a sense of hunger, I think, that you have to have.

有一种饥饿感。

There's a sense of hunger.

听我说，你可能得出去猎杀一只动物。

Listen, you might need to go out and kill an animal.

我不知道你来自哪里。

Like, I don't know where you got, like where you came from.

可能没有任何商店开门。

There might not be any shops open.

可能没有，你知道的，你只能做你必须做的事。

There might not, you know, it's like, you gotta do what you gotta do.

但你知道，尽自己最大努力去做一些事情，这真的很了不起。

But you know, there's something amazing about doing, like making the best of yourself.

当你意识到，天啊，我从那样的地方起步，现在生活变成了这样，这简直不可思议。

You know, there's something incredible when you go, God, like I came from here and now this is what life looks like.

这太了不起了。

Like that's incredible.

这真的需要很长的时间。

It just takes such a long time.

我觉得，你知道，我在书里反复提到这一点，因为我觉得社交媒体已经让我们产生了一种错觉，认为只要多听、多消费，就能走向成功。

And I feel like, you know, again, I speak about this so much in the book because I feel like social media has kind of conditioned us into this idea that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that that somehow you can consume your way to success.

但我说，不行，你做不到。

And I'm like, no, you can't.

你必须去努力。

You gotta work.

你别无选择。

You don't have any choice.

你知道吗？

You know?

你得去做一些你不太喜欢的事情，并且把它做到相当熟练，才能获得机会去做稍微喜欢一点的事，最终才能做你真正热爱的事。

You gotta, like, do something that you kinda don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity to do something that you like a little bit more and then eventually something that you really love.

但我的经验是，一直都是这样的。

But my experience is that it's always been that way.

这一直都是逐步积累的。

It's always been incremental.

一直都是一点点来，我从中获得多少，取决于我付出了多少，但从来没有任何一刻有人会说：‘给你，幸运的女孩，这是你没努力就得到的东西。’

It's always been a little bit, and I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give, but there's never been a a moment where someone's gone like, Here you go, lucky girl, you know, here's something that you didn't work for.

你必须付出努力。

You gotta put the work in.

就这么简单。

It's just that simple.

野心必须在你努力工作时找到你。

Ambition has to find you working.

在我们继续之前，我要花点时间介绍一下Timeline。

Before we keep going, I'm gonna take a moment to tell you about Timeline.

当我们谈论健康衰老时，我们通常会想到饮食、锻炼、睡眠，这些都很重要。

Now when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep, and those things matter.

它们确实很重要。

They really do.

但随着年龄增长，你的感受还取决于更深层的因素。

But how you feel as you get older also depends on something deeper.

没错。

That's right.

我们说的是细胞能量。

We're talking about your cellular energy.

你身体的每一分能量都来自线粒体。

Every bit of energy your body has comes from your mitochondria.

还记得吗？

Remember that?

细胞的发电站。

The powerhouse of the cell.

这确实是真实存在的。

It's it's a real thing still.

细胞内的微小发电厂，随着年龄增长，它们的效率会下降。

The tiny power plants inside of your cells, and as we age, those don't work as efficiently.

所以它们中有更多受到损伤，你的能量下降，恢复变慢，你就是感觉不像以前那么强壮或有韧性。

So more of them become damaged, your energy drops, recovery slows down, and you just don't feel as strong or resilient as you do.

这就是为什么我开始服用Timeline的Mitopure。

That's why I started taking Mitopure from Timeline.

它支持一种叫做线粒体自噬的过程，这是身体清除受损线粒体的自然反应，从而让细胞更高效地产生能量。

It supports something called mitophagy, which is your body's natural response and process for clearing out damaged mitochondria so your cells can produce energy more efficiently.

所以换句话说，如果你想获得更多能量，你的细胞就需要更多能量。

So it's like saying this, if you want more energy, your cells need more energy.

而这就是Timeline所做的。

And that's what Timeline does.

Timeline花了十五年多的时间研究线粒体健康，在人体临床研究中，人们在不改变日常习惯的情况下，肌肉力量和能量水平都得到了提升。

Timeline has spent over fifteen years researching mitochondrial health, and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine.

对我来说，这关乎保持强壮、保持敏锐，在我慢慢变老的同时，依然感觉像自己，而且尽可能多地留住我的头发。

For me, it's all about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as, yeah, I get a little bit older and keeping my hair as much as I possibly can right now.

Timeline的临床验证配方现在以更低的新价格上市。

Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price.

现在前往 timeline.com/jefferson，Mitopure 仅售 79 美元。

Mitopure starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com/jefferson.

更多详情请访问 timeline.com/jefferson。

That's timeline.com/jefferson to learn more.

现在回到本集节目。

And now back to the episode.

你有没有想过，是不是有人告诉你，你不配拥有这一切，只是恰好时机对了，你并不是独自完成的，你得到了全世界的帮助。

Is there a thought that has recurred in your own mind of whether it said you don't deserve this, it just right place, right time, you didn't do this on your own, you had all the help in the world.

我想知道，你有没有经历过一些负面的、让你觉得自己不配的念头？如果有，你一直在与哪些想法抗争？

I'm curious of what are the negative hardship thoughts that you, or if there are any, what are the thoughts that you have to fight against?

因为这些念头总是存在。

Because they're always there.

是的，我痴迷于喜剧，几乎看过了所有克里斯·洛克的脱口秀专场，从头到尾都能背出来。

Yeah, you know, I'm obsessed with comedy, and I've watched like every Chris Rock special, like back to front, I could recite them for you.

但他经常提到的一件事是，有次他买下了一栋漂亮的梦想之家，他说这房子好到他一直准备着一个打包好的行李包，因为他根本无法想象这样的生活会属于他，会是他真正拥有的。

But one that he always talks about is like, at some point he gets like this house, this beautiful dream house, and he says his house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that this would be his life, that this is like his and he owns it.

我也有这种感觉。

And I kind of like feel like that so much.

上周我在我的播客上采访了Cardi B，但对我来说，我觉得我和Cardi B没什么共同点。

I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week, and Cardi, like to me, I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B.

那种再也不想穷下去的感觉。

I was like, oh, that that feeling of like never wanting to be poor again.

她跟我说的第一句话就是：我们是一样的，我和Cardi B是同一种人。

Like the first word she said to me, was like, we are the same, me and Cardi B, we're the same person.

但这种想法曾经长期困扰着我。

But that is something that I think for so long haunted me.

我总担心自己努力得到的一切会被夺走，我会再次陷入贫穷。

This idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away and I would be poor again.

不只是穷，而是失去做决定的能力，无法决定自己该做什么。

And not even like just poor, but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do.

所以，这种感觉我觉得会一直伴随着我。

And so that is something that I feel like it's always gonna be with me.

我总是保留着那份警觉，因为每天早上醒来，躺在比佛利山庄这间美丽的房间里，我都觉得这不可能是我的生活。

I am always keeping the proverbial bag because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air and I'm like, that can't be my life.

真的不可能。

Like it just cannot.

我内心有一部分不想丢掉。

There's a little piece of that that I don't wanna get rid of.

这部分让我保持一种饥饿感。

There's a piece of that that I am like, kinda keeps me hungry.

它让我不断思考：接下来该做什么？

It keeps me like thinking like, what's next?

接下来该做什么？

What's next?

别躺在功劳簿上。

Don't rest on your laurels.

别偷懒。

Don't get lazy.

还有一部分想法是，像我这样的孩子有成千上万、甚至数百万之多。

There's also a piece of that that goes, there's thousands of hundreds of thousands and millions of kids like me.

所以，你如何才能真正发挥作用，把你所学到和所经历的一切，用来确保那些天生机会较少的人也能拥有更多机会呢？因为我清楚地记得每一个改变我命运的时刻。

And so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more, because I know that I can pinpoint all the moments of of lift that happened.

那并不总是因为我比别人更机智，有时候只是运气来了，你知道的，天时地利人和都凑齐了。

And it wasn't always because I was outmaneuvering everyone, like some stuff just like, you know, the stars aligned.

但我想，对你问题的回答是，这种想法一直在我脑海中挥之不去，并在某种程度上激励着我。

But I guess that that the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind and it somewhat fuels me.

我觉得我现在已经摆脱了‘明天一切可能就都没了’这种心态，但如果说这种想法从未存在过，那我就是在撒谎。

I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow, but I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there.

就像一种匮乏型思维，你总觉得自己永远不知道什么时候会结束，所以你必须一直往前冲。

Like a scarcity type mindset, like you're always, you never know when it's gonna stop, so you gotta keep going.

是的，我在书里经常谈到匮乏，因为我从未想过，因为我拥有了更多，你就一定会失去什么，对吧？

Yeah, and there is, listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisaged that because I have something more that you're gonna get less, right?

我觉得

And I think

这非常女性化。

that is a very female thing.

我完全不这么想，我不相信这一点。

That's not how I think at all, I don't believe in that.

但对我来说，确实有这种感觉。

But I do have that feeling for me.

你知道，当我遇到我丈夫时，我对他说，我不会回到过去的生活方式。

You know, when I met my husband, I said to him, I don't go back in lifestyle.

我们现在在哪里，我就只会向前走，不会再回头。

Like this is where we are now, I'm only going one way, it's going forward.

所以你必须跟我一起走，否则这段关系就不会继续。幸运的是，他接受了我给他的这个挑战，这个浪漫的挑战。

So you have to come with me or this And is not gonna thankfully he was up for that challenge, that romantic challenge that I gave him.

但这对我来说真的很重要。

But that is really important to me.

我一直在有意识地构建我所拥有的生活。

Like it's like, have been very purposeful about the life that I built.

我认为保持前进是我的责任，必须始终处于运动状态，绝不能停下来，认为事情已经完成了。

And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done.

我永远不会，我永远不会产生那种感觉。

I never, I will never feel like that.

我知道在我的世界里，我们都这样，我知道你在书里谈到过冒名顶替综合征，有些人，尤其是女性，几乎会因为过度自我怀疑而错失机会。

I know that in my own world, you know, I, we all do, and I know you talk about in your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women, can almost out talk themselves out of an opportunity.

你经常遇到这种情况吗？

Is that something that you find often?

是的，我的意思是，我经常在周围看到这种现象。

Yeah, I mean, I see it around me often.

你知道，我从来没有过，这很难让人理解，我从来没有任何冒名顶替综合征，这完全归功于我妈妈。

You know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome and it was literally down to my mom.

我妈妈是个非常强势的女性，她个子小小的。

My mom is like such a fierce lady, you know, she is like five foot nothing.

她是个白人，金发，却有好几个女儿，都是黑人，留着浓密的卷发。

She's like white and blonde, and she has these like daughters that are like, you know, black with like big curly hair.

我妈妈非常强势。

And my mom was fierce.

她总是说，你必须学会照顾自己。

She was like, you are gonna need to learn to look after yourself.

而且你要知道，艾玛，你并不比任何人优越，但任何人也不比你优越。

And you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you.

我向上帝发誓，杰斐逊，我这一生一直都是这么想的。

And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life thinking exactly that.

我觉得没人比我强。

I was like, nobody's better than me.

真的，你去伊顿或者哈佛都没用，你也不比我强。

Like, literally, you could go to Eaton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me.

我真的一直这么认为。

And I really imagined that.

我是真的把这些话记在心里了。

Like, I I was I took it in.

所以在我心里，我觉得只要我足够努力，倾尽所有，我就能像任何人一样成功。

And so in my head, I thought if I work really hard and if I throw everything that I've got at it, I can be as successful as anybody else.

但那只是我的起点。

But that was my starting point.

你知道，这是我妈妈给我的。

You know, my mom gave me that.

因为我做过很多事，拥有很多成功的生意，但也经历过很多失败——我在书里谈到了这些——所以我变得更加自信了。

And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book, I got more confident.

我学会了接受失去，接受自己不擅长某事，接受创业失败，而不会觉得这说明我本身有问题。

I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business, to fail, and for that not to be like, there's something wrong with me.

我只是觉得，那个情况没成功。

I was like, that situation didn't work out.

那是环境不合适。

That was the wrong set of circumstances.

我犯了这个错误，但我从不把它内化为‘我不适合做这个’。

I made this mistake, but I never internalized it and was like, I'm not right for it.

所以我一直与自己所做的事情保持某种距离，从不觉得任何事是关于我的。

So I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing, and I never thought that anything was about me.

我只是觉得，那只是那样而已，你知道的？

I was just like, that was that, you know?

我想把这种心态传递给尽可能多的女性，因为冒名顶替综合征是虚假的。

And I want to impart that on as many women as I can, because imposter syndrome is fake.

它不是真实的，是人为构建的，只存在于你的脑海中。

It's not real, it's made up, it's in your mind.

因此，你必须创造相应的条件，改变自己对可能性的认知。

And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you.

艾玛，有哪些是你信奉的观念，可能让其他听你讲话或读你书的人觉得是激进的？

Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe listening or reading your book, might think are radical?

有没有一些你奉行的原则，会让别人惊讶地说：天啊，这完全违背了我们被灌输的观念？

Are there things that you live by that other people go, woah, this is something that is definitely against the the grain of what we've been told.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh gosh.

好吧。

Okay.

这将是我在播客中最受欢迎的部分。

This is gonna be the popular part for me in the podcast.

这就是每个人爱上我的时候，杰斐逊。

This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白了。

I've got it.

好吧。

Okay.

我认为工作与生活的平衡是个迷思，我们都知道，任何听过我讲话的人都明白这一点。

Well, I think that work life balance is a myth, and we all know that I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that.

我认为这根本不是正确的目标。

I think it's the wrong goal.

对吧？

Right?

在我的人生中，我看到过，而且我相信生活和工作都是有阶段的，总有一些时刻你需要全身心投入，全力以赴，毫不在意别人怎么看。

Like, I I have seen in my life and because I believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the metal and to go for what it is that you want with no, you know, no fucks given.

就是说，你直接冲进去就是了。

Like, no like, you're just gonna go in.

但也有一些时候，比如你刚生完孩子，你根本别无选择。

And there is a time when, you know, like, right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that.

你必须稍微退一步，照顾好自己的身体和孩子，找到属于自己的新节奏。

You have to, like, lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself.

但我认为，我们文化中创造的这种观念——认为存在某种神奇的平衡，只有找到它，一切才会顺利——是错误的。

But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists and until you've found it, nothing's gonna work out for you.

这完全是胡说八道。

Like, that's BS.

想要拥有出色的职业和成功的事业，你需要近距离参与。

Like, you need like, to have a great career and a great business, like, you need proximity.

你需要有能见度。

You need visibility.

你不可能通过Zoom会议就变得优秀。

You can't like, you don't get good over a Zoom call.

你必须亲临现场。

Like, you need to be in the room.

如果你不在我身边，你就看不到我是怎么行动的。

If you're not, like, around me, you're not gonna see how I move.

你不会理解我们正在推进的速度，也不会明白这家公司到底是什么样的。

You're not gonna understand, like, the pace of what we're trying to do, what the, like, company is all about.

所以我认为，现在文化中这种观念，特别针对女性。

So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just got specifically for women.

别再追求平衡了。

Like, stop looking for balance.

去找你真正想要的东西，去追求它，并理解你人生中的时机。

Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand, like, the timing of your life.

我也认为人生的时机非常重要，我一直思考这个问题：女性一直被告诉要等待、等待、再等待生孩子。

I also think the timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about like this idea that, you know, women have been told just like wait and wait and wait to have a child.

根本不存在完美的时机，但确实存在生理现实，对吧？

Like there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right?

我不是在提倡青少年怀孕，但我也要说，等到39岁可能并不是个好主意。

I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're 39 years old probably isn't a good idea.

所以，那种认为你必须找到一个骑着白马、能解决你所有问题的梦幻伴侣的想法。

So the idea that, you know, it's like you've got to find this, that mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems.

我觉得，找一个你爱的人，然后生个孩子，也许比别人告诉你的时机稍微早一点。

I'm like, find someone that you love and have a baby, like maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told.

这不会毁掉你的人生。

It won't be the end of your life.

没关系。

It's okay.

就是，没关系。

Like, it's just, it's okay.

我觉得发生的事情是，人们变得非常害怕，因为现代育儿已经失控了。

And I think that what happened is that, like people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas.

育儿本身并没有变得更难，但期望变得苛刻了。

Like parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult.

所以在这本书里，我大量谈论了为自己设定愿景，不是那种愿望板，也不是显化。

And that's why in this book, I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boarding, not manifestation.

我想要过怎样的生活？

Like how is it that I wanna live?

对我来说什么是重要的？

What is important to me?

我的原则和我在乎的东西是什么？

What are my principles and the stuff that I care about?

这样你就可以拿自己和这个标准做对比，而不是去和社交媒体上那个把孩子的三明治切成星星形状的妈妈比较。

Because then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to like some chick that you saw on social that like cut her kids sandwiches into stars.

像那种事情根本不重要。

Like, that's not important.

真正重要的是，对你来说什么才是重要的？

What's important is, like, what's important to you?

对你重要的事，和对我重要的事是不一样的。

And it's different for you than it is for me.

所以我喜欢为自己设定标准。

And so what I like to do is set my own standards.

我不喜欢被周围涌来的各种噪音所影响。

I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is, like, coming in and around me.

我会说，这些对我很重要，这些是我作为父母的目标，作为妻子的目标，作为女企业家的目标，我会毫不犹豫地去追求它们。

I like to say, this is important to me, and these are my goals as a parent, and these are my goals as a wife, and these are my goals as a businesswoman, and I'm gonna go after that without apology.

我觉得这才是重要的。

Like, that's what I think is important.

屏蔽掉所有噪音，因为你知道什么是疯狂的吗？

And tune out all the noise because you know what's insane?

根本没人盯着你。

Like, nobody's watching you.

没人像你关心自己那样关心你。

Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you.

所以你完全可以做自己的事，不必担心，因为人们没空关注你。

So you can pretty much like just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time.

他们真的没空。

They literally don't have time.

完全没意见。

Absolutely no notes.

我可以告诉你，我对这些话毫无异议，艾玛。

Can tell you I have no notes off that, Emma.

从你自己开始，为工作和生活树立新的愿景，艾玛·格里德。

Start with yourself, a new vision for work and life, Emma Grede.

这真是太好了。

This is so, so good.

我很荣幸能支持它。

I am honored to be able to support it.

我希望每个人都读一读，我会确保我的社群都知道这本书有多重要。

I want everybody to read it and I'll be sending, make sure that everybody in my community knows how important this book is.

Emma，谢谢你。

Emma, thank you you.

非常感谢你抽出时间。

So much for your time.

哦，Jefferson，谢谢你。

Oh, Jefferson, thank you.

你真是个宝藏。

You're a diamond.

这真是太美好了。

This was so lovely.

请代我向你的家人致意，再见

Appreciate Appreciate your family high for me and until

也请你为我向你的家人问好。

And the the next same thing to yours for me.

保重，亲爱的。

Take care, my love.

好的，保重。

Okay, take care.

谢谢。

Thank you.

再见。

Bye.