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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
安排我的一天。
Train my day.
乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
你好，比格洛先生。
Hello, mister Bigelow.
你好。
Hello.
早上好。
Good morning.
下午好。
Good afternoon.
是的。
Yeah.
很高兴认识你。
Pleasure to meet you.
很高兴能和你交谈，非常感谢你来到这里。
Pleasure to get to talk to you, and I I really appreciate you coming on here.
这对我意义重大。
Means a lot to me.
你和我显然在UFO领域有一些共同兴趣，但大多数人认识你是因为比格洛航空航天公司。
You and I have, some shared interests clearly in the world of, UFOs, but I wanna talk most people know of you because of Bigelow Aerospace.
他们知道你是一位亿万富翁投资者，是一位非常成功的企业家，但你对UFO有着深厚的痴迷。
They know that you're this billionaire investor, and you're a very successful businessman, but you have a deep fascination with UFOs.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Sure do.
这一切是怎么开始的？
How did this all get started?
那是我大约三岁的时候，也就是1947年左右。
Back when my when I was about three years old, which would be about 1947.
实际上，那年五月，我的祖父母经历了一次非常惊人的近距离接触。
And, actually, of May year, my grandparents had a very close encounter that was dramatic.
他们当时在傍晚时分开车上山，然后返回拉斯维加斯。
And they were taking an afternoon, evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to to Las Vegas.
他们最初看到的似乎是一架着火的飞机。
And they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire.
这个物体越来越靠近他们，于是他们把车停到了路边。
And the object became closer and closer to them, and they pulled off to the side of the road.
有一刻，它完全占据了整个挡风玻璃，他们以为自己要死了。
And at one point, then it filled up the win windshield, and they thought they were gonna die.
就在最后一刻，它突然飞走并消失了。
And at the last second, it shot off and and disappeared.
我大概在十岁的时候听说了这个故事。
And I learned of this story when I was probably 10 years old.
因为当时我才三岁。
And because I was three at the time.
是我母亲告诉我的这个故事。
And my mother had told me this story.
于是我去找了我的祖父，但他不愿意谈论这件事。
So I approached my grandfather, and he wouldn't talk about it.
这么多年过去了，已经过了七年，因为我对这件事一直很好奇。
Now after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it.
于是我去找了我祖母，她只说了几句话，但不愿多谈。
And so I went to my grandmother, and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk.
所以我是从我妈妈那里听到这个故事的。
So I got the story from my mom.
他们当时不得不在路边的车里坐了一会儿，让我的祖父平复心情，因为他们以为自己就要死了。
And and they had my grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself and because they thought they were they were gonna die.
最后，他终于能继续开车回拉斯维加斯了。
And and then finally he finally was able to drive on back to Las Vegas.
所以，这对我来说就是一切的开始。
So that was the beginning for me.
他有没有描述过，你说它看起来像着火的飞机，但当它靠近时，它的形状是什么样的？
Did he ever describe what you said it looked like a plane on fire, but, like, what was the shape of it as it got closer?
我不记得我妈妈描述过任何具体的形状。
I I don't recall any kind of shape that was that was that my mother described.
我不记得了。
I don't recall that.
但他们就是知道那不是一架飞机。
But they just knew it wasn't a plane.
他们知道那是
They knew it was
某种东西，没错。
something That's right.
没错。
That's right.
太疯狂了。
Crazy.
所以家里，你知道的，家里发生了一件事。
So in the family, you know, in the family, the family had an event.
我就住在祖父母隔壁，家里那件事在那个时间点引发了一系列事情。
And I lived right next door to my grandparents, and the family had an event that kinda started things at that date.
对我来说，其他个人的事情是后来才发生的。
For me, other personal things came later.
但对于家人来说，那是一件大事。
But for the family, that was a big deal.
所以你说的是1947年？
So this was you said '47?
1947年。
'47.
1947年正是罗斯威尔事件发生的时期。
And '47 was the time of the Roswell crash.
1947年，全球范围内观测到大量UFO活动，人们推测这与投放在广岛和长崎的原子弹以及美国和俄罗斯进行的多次核试验有关，显然，当时人们对这些事件非常关注——不过实际上，到那时俄罗斯还没有投放过任何原子弹。
'47 was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide, and the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that United States had done and Russia had done and that there was a lot of interest in in, obviously, in that well, actually, Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
那是在那之后。
It was after that.
但外星人对我们物种产生了兴趣，因为他们看到这些疯狂的家伙在引爆核弹。
But that there was interest in our species by extraterrestrials because they let oh, these crazy assholes are detonating nukes.
嘿，咱们去看看他们吧。
Like, let's let's go take a look at them.
对。
Right.
战争期间，你听说过所谓的‘foo战斗机’，那些跟随轰炸机的光点，当然，尾部机枪手是最常看到它们的人。
Well, you had, so called foo fighters during the war, these lights that were following, bombers, and the tail gunners were the ones that saw them most often, of course.
整个战争期间都发生过这种事，然后当然就是罗斯威尔事件。
And and that happened through through the war, and then and then, of course, Roswell.
但在那之前是肯尼思·阿诺德，对吧？大约在六月，然后七月八日是罗斯威尔事件。
But before that was count count Arnold, right, in about June And then in July 8 was Roswell.
不过，从三位一体实验开始，确实出现了明显的增加。
And there's a direct uptick, though, from the Trinity experiments.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得，嗯，我的感觉很简单，就是如果没有其他任何证据或证明，那确实是一个巨大的刺激。
I think I I, yeah, I I gather my feeling simply is that without any kind of other other evidence or proof that that was a huge stimuli stimulus.
是的。
Yeah.
所以那时候，你是在家庭讨论中听说了这件事的。
So this was around that time, then you had heard about this as a part of, you know, family discussions.
对。
Right.
因此，这最初点燃了那团火。
And so that sort of ignited the fire initially.
是的。
Yeah.
当我大约十岁的时候，我就开始问我的朋友们，你知道，你们家里有没有听说过什么异常情况？
And I started asking my friends, as I say, when I was about 10, you know, have you any any reports in your family of anything?
而且，天哪，我几个亲密的朋友告诉我一些他们以前从未告诉过我的事。
And and by golly, a couple of my close friends, told me things that they had never told me before.
所以，我的意思是，这并不是一个孤立的事件。
So, you know, that wasn't that wasn't necessarily an exclusive event is what I'm saying.
拉斯维加斯的其他人也曾在近距离目睹过类似的事情。
Other people in Las Vegas had had, seen things at close proximity as well.
显然，你与这件事的关系已经伴随你很久了。
Now your relationship to this is obviously something that you've carried for so long.
这一直是你长期以来的执念。
It's it's been an obsession of yours for so long.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这一切始于这件事，但你本人有没有经历过什么特别的事情？
It started with this, but what what personal experiences, if any, have you had?
嗯，大概七岁左右，我七或八岁的时候，我一直把生活中的一切都归结为荒诞的梦境。
Well, when I was probably seven or so, seven or eight, I used to have well, I chalked up all my life to just being silly dreams.
我大概做过五六次这样的梦，但始终无法理解它们。
And I had maybe five or six of these dreams, and they I could never make sense of them.
我会侧躺在床上。
And I would be laying in bed on my side.
每次的梦都一模一样。
And typical dream, always the same.
有三个穿着类似僧袍的矮小身影。
There would be three short somebody, somethings in a kind of monk robe.
我看不清它们的脸，也看不到任何肢体。
And so I couldn't see any face, couldn't see any appendages.
这三个不明生物就站在那里，它们的高度和我的视线大致平齐。
And the these three whatevers were standing there, and they they were not too far from my eye level as far as the heights and so forth.
所以，这些是像孩子一样大小的吗？
So these, like, child size?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我是个狂热的漫画读者，但整个漫画类型里都没有任何东西与之相关，电影里也没有。
And there's nothing in a I was an avid comic book reader, but there was nothing in the in the whole genre of comic books that related to that or movies.
我们在拉斯维加斯直到1953或1954年才有了电视。
And we didn't have television in Las Vegas till 53 or '54.
即使有了之后，早期的电视广播也糟糕透顶，你知道的。
And even after that, it was terrible broadcasting, you know, at first.
所以这对我来说完全说不通。
But so it made no sense to me.
因此，我这一生从未向任何人提起过，包括我妻子。
And, so over my lifetime, I never mentioned it to anybody, including my wife.
你知道吧？
You know?
真奇怪，你会把一些事情藏在心里，却没有任何真正的原因。
It's funny how you keep things, secret and, just kinda for no no good reason.
也许我不好意思谈论它，但我最终想，嗯，也许那只是梦而已。
Maybe I would be embarrassed to to, talk about it, but I finally thought, well, you know, maybe it was just dreams.
也许那是别的什么东西。
Maybe it was something else.
那是我当时在这一领域经历的第一件事。
And so that was a first event personally that I had at that time was in the subject.
你是什么时候开始把那些小人物或类人生物与外星人联系起来的？
When did you start to connect the idea of these tiny people or human like things with extraterrestrials?
那是很多年以后，当我开始以研究者和该领域学生的身份进行研究，并开始与那些专门研究绑架事件的专家交谈时。
Well, years later, when I began to start my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject and began to talk with people who were who made it their business to be experts in abductions.
我越深入这个领域，就越会为研究者和治疗师列出问题，而我则坐在一旁观察整个过程。
And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and and I'd be sitting there watching the process.
随着时间推移，我开始想，也许这件事背后另有玄机，但我最好什么都不知道，所以我就把它封存起来，彻底忘掉。
And just over time, I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it, but I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it.
是的
Yeah.
我们昨晚聊了点约翰·麦克的事，就是那位哈佛的
We we talked last night about John Mack a little bit, the Harvard
是的
Yeah.
很棒的人
Great guy.
是的
Yeah.
他做过很多这类催眠回溯访谈，受访者描述的场景都非常相似
And he did a lot of these sort of hypnotic regression sessions with people where they described very similar scenarios.
哦，确实，有各种各样的不同情况
Oh, well, yeah, a multitude of different situations.
绑架现象在人群中似乎非常普遍
The abduction phenomena was was very proliferate in the population, it seemed like.
我们做了一项名为罗珀调查的问卷，并重复进行了三次，使误差范围降至百分之一点到一点五。
We did a survey called the roper pole, and we repeated it three times so that the margin of error was really reduced to one, one and a half percent.
而外星绑架研究者提出了这十个问题。
And abduction researchers came up with the 10 questions.
于是我们分发了这份问卷。
And so we distributed that.
结论是，根据研究者和调查数据，相当大比例的人口曾经历过某种类型的事件。
And conclusion was a fairly relatively sizable percentage of the population had some kind of experiences according to them, according to the researchers, and according to the poll.
我没有资格评判这些问题是否与结论真正相关，但他们是这么说的。
I don't I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said.
在我的个人研究中，我找到了一些人，并让他们接受催眠回归。
And so and I had, in my own research, found people that I put them through regression.
不是我亲自操作，而是我找到了一位能做催眠回归的催眠治疗师。
Not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that.
我在各地找到了一些人，可能包括我团队里的某个人，他们都会讲述这些故事和经历。
And I found a number of people just here, there, scattered around, maybe somebody in my own staff, and they would come up with with these these stories and these events.
约翰·麦克试图通过催眠回归所受到的批评之一是，你可以在一个人的脑海中植入想法，通过暗示来创造虚假记忆。
One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is that the idea that you can put the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head, that you could suggest things and you could create false memories.
我在对他的研究的批评中读到过这一点：这种催眠回归方式，通过向不同的人反复引导出非常具体的场景，确实可能帮助塑造记忆，尤其是对那些容易受影响或易受暗示的人。
And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work, that this style of hypnotic regression and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people, you can sort of help create, especially in, people that are easily influenced or people people that are open to suggestion.
你可以在他们的脑海中植入这些虚假记忆。
You could put these false memories in their head.
因此，当你处理像UFO、外星人绑架或造访这类如此离奇的事情时，
And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic as a UFO or alien abduction or or visitation or something
比如这种事。
like that.
这绝对是有可能的。
Oh, that's definitely possible.
还有一种叫做‘屏幕记忆’的现象，但首先得考虑暗示的力量。
There's also something called screen memory, but dealing with, first, the power suggestion.
这确实是真的。
That's absolutely true.
但我的经历是与不同的催眠治疗师打交道，他们反而刻意避免暗示，甚至如果真有暗示，也是完全相反的。
But my experience was with different hypnotherapists, they went out of their way, in fact, say, maybe if they did make a suggestion, it was just the opposite.
他们可能会说：‘好吧，你正坐在一艘飞船上。’
They might say, Okay, you're on board this craft.
光线是从哪里来的？
Where's the lighting coming from?
是从你所在房间的角落来的吗？
Is it coming from the corner or of the of the room that you're in?
但那里根本没有角落。
Well, there were no corners.
被催眠的人会立刻纠正他们。
They'd be corrected right away by the person being, hip and hip and sized.
所以，他们故意采取完全相反的方向进行暗示，试图引导对方朝那个方向描述，但对方并没有这么做。
And, so they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make make suggestions, to maybe coax the person to come that direction, and they wouldn't do it.
那个人并没有这么做。
The person wouldn't do it.
现在，屏幕记忆是不同的，据说，如果某人与所谓的外星人有非常近距离的接触，他们的记忆最终会变得完全不同。
Now screen memory is different, supposedly, if somebody has a very close encounter with supposedly somebody that's that's ET, you leave that that the memory turns out to be entirely different.
这种记忆会被有意识地植入你心中，让你回忆起与实际发生的事情完全不同的场景。
And that's put into you consciously, and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened.
也许你看到路上有两只鹿，或者类似的情况，也可能有猫头鹰之类的动物。
Maybe you you saw deer two deer on the road or something of that sort, or maybe there were owls or whatever.
所以，据说就是这样。
So, yeah, that's what's purported to be.
让我觉得疯狂的是，如果你回溯贝蒂和巴尼·希尔的故事，或者特拉维斯·沃尔顿的经历，还有许多其他绑架事件，这些人都彼此不认识，尤其是我们谈论的是社交媒体出现之前的时代。
What's crazy to me is if you go back to Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton, if you go a lot of these abduction experiences, people that did not know each other, and particularly, we're talking about before social media, before any of this stuff.
没错。
Right.
他们的故事却非常相似，相似到令人不安的程度。
They have very similar stories, like, similar to a a disturbing extent.
是的。
Yeah.
贝蒂和巴尼·希尔的事件是偶然的。
Well, Betty Barney, Betty and Barney Hill was, accidental.
你知道吗？
You know?
我认为贝蒂或巴尼有睡眠问题，他们去寻求治疗睡眠障碍的方法。
I think somebody had, Betty or Barney had a a sleep problem, and they went to try to get some therapy for a sleeping disorder.
我觉得当时可能有某种关联，但并不是什么天啊，
I think there was some kind of connection like that, but it didn't have to do with, oh my gosh.
我们有这种回忆。
We have this recollection.
这个故事是在治疗过程中逐渐演变出来的。
The story evolved through the therapy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道吗？
You know?
为了试图解决这个其他问题，这个故事突然就开始源源不断地涌现出来。
And in order to try to to fix this other problem, all of a sudden, this story starts just to flow out.
所以我不知道是贝蒂先说的，然后巴尼后来才说的。
And so I don't know whether it was Betty first and then Barney later.
我认为巴尼对接受催眠是抗拒的，我相信是这样。
And I think Barney resisted, going under hypnosis, I believe.
然后一切就开始倾泻而出。
And then everything just started pouring out.
有一位名叫安吉拉·希尔的女士。
So There's a woman named Angela Hill.
她是一位顶级UFC格斗选手，实际上是贝蒂和巴尼的孙女。
She's a top UFC fighter, and she's actually the granddaughter of Betty and Barney.
真的吗？
No kidding.
太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
我是在我们进行完一次对话之后才知道这件事的。
And I didn't know about it until after we did a conversation.
我当时正在采访她，和她聊她的格斗生涯。
I was interviewing her just talking to her about her fighting career.
是的。
Yeah.
在对话结束、我们准备离开时，她突然说：‘哦，我忘了告诉你了。’
And at the end of the conversation, she like, when we were done wrapping up and about to leave, she's like, oh, I forgot to tell you.
然后她告诉我，哇。
And then she tells me Wow.
她的祖父母是贝蒂和巴尼·希尔。
That her grandparents were Betty and Barney Hill.
我当时就说：‘什么？’
I'm like, what?
这太神奇了。
That's amazing.
那是她的祖父，
That was her grandfather,
你有问过吗？
which is just Did you inquire?
你有问过她吗？
Did you ask her?
我们聊过这件事。
Talked about it.
是的。
Yeah.
我们聊了这件事，她其实对他的记忆不多，但她的父母还记得那些场景。
We talked about it, and she, you know, she didn't have much of a memory of him, But, you know, her parents recalled the the the scenes
对。
Right.
他描述的那些情景，后来当然成了全国轰动的新闻。
That he described and, you know, obviously, it became this huge national story.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我小时候就听说过这件事。
I mean, I remember hearing about it when I was a kid.
当然。
So Sure.
我的意思是，那是二十世纪五十年代的事。
I mean, it was in the nineteen fifties.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且当时并没有一个你可以用来参照或塑造记忆的原型。
And there was no there was no archetype that you would sort of model, you know, your memories after.
我会想，如果今天我进行催眠回归，我会对自己的记忆非常怀疑，因为我听过太多故事了。
I would wonder, like, if I ever did hypnotic regression today, I would I would be very skeptical of my own memories because I've heard so many stories
对。
Right.
关于这些宇宙飞船的遭遇。
Of these spaceship encounters.
我跟特拉维斯·沃尔顿谈过。
I've talked to people like Travis Walton.
我跟鲍勃·拉扎尔谈过。
I've talked to people like Bob Lazar.
我接触过这些经历过这些事情的人。
I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things.
我会觉得我的记忆可能因为我的预期而被扭曲，但你不能对贝蒂和巴尼·希尔这么说。
I I would want I would think that my memory might be tainted by my expectations, but you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill.
这些人当时根本没有任何类似的故事存在。
These people, they had there was no stories like that before then.
没错。
No.
这并不是他们后来迎合的流行文化产物，对吧。
This is not some pop culture thing that they were Right.
附会的。
Latching onto.
对。
Right.
甚至他们描述这些生物的方式，与二十多年后特拉维斯·沃尔顿的描述之间，有着惊人的相似之处，真的很诡异。
And even the way they describe these creatures, the film the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, twenty plus years later, it's very eerie.
对。
Right.
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
还有类似肯·阿诺德的目击事件。
And the same thing with, well, like, Ken Arnold's sightings.
你知道吗，1947年的时候，那还是片空白领域。
You know, that was that was virgin territory back then in in '47.
对人们来说？
That to people?
嗯，肯·阿诺德是个飞行员。
Well, so Ken Arnold was a pilot.
而且
And
这属于那种电影现象。
That's in that movie phenomenon.
对吧？
Right?
这不是在那个里描述的吗？
Does isn't it described in that?
也许吧。
Maybe so.
这个现象？
The phenomenon?
也许吧。
Maybe so.
他当时正在华盛顿的沙斯塔山附近飞行，看到了九个物体，以编队形式像跳跃一样前进。
And so he was flying over Mount Shasta somewhere in Washington there and saw these objects, nine objects, kinda skipping along in formation.
作为一名专业飞行员，他能够估算它们的速度并进行计算，发现它们的飞行速度远超当时常规飞机的水平。
And, he, being a a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed, calculate that, and, they were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft.
他描述的形状，我一直觉得有点像蝠鲼的形状，只是没有尾巴，整体呈一种微微弯曲的飞镖形状。
And the shape that he described was, I've always thought them of them, a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail and kind of a little bit of a curved boomerang kind of shape to to the craft.
这引起了极大的关注，因为他本人非常可信，后来还有其他具有军事背景、军衔为上尉或更高的人也公开了他们的目击经历。
And and that that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow as were other people that later revealed their own sightings, military backgrounds, people with that were had major rank or captain rank.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以他们确实有故事，你会听他们讲述自己的经历，因为他们是军队里的专业观察员。
So they had, yeah, they had stories you would listen to, you know, about their experiences because they were professional observers in the in the military.
而且
And
实际上，昨晚我们出去吃晚饭时，丹·克伦肖给我发了一条短信，我跟餐桌上的每个人都分享了。
And, actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text, and I shared it with everybody at the table.
这是来自美国航空飞行员的，他们看到了一些东西。
And it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some Right.
壮观的目击事件
Spectacular sighting
是的。
Right.
就在过去几天里。
Over the last couple of days.
对。
Right.
他们正在，你知道的，试图弄清楚这些人到底看到了什么，但有个东西以某种疯狂的速度从他们旁边飞过，而且有一段他们讨论此事的录音。
And they're, you know, trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and you there's a recording of them discussing it.
无论那是异常现象还是常规事物，都不应该在那架飞机那么近的距离内发生。
Whether it's abnormal or conventional, that should never have happened in that proximity to that aircraft.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果这是一次意外，那可真是一次糟糕透顶的意外，竟然靠得那么近。
So if it were an accident, that's a really bad accident to come that close.
而且，如果它当时正沿着航线飞行，并且以那么快的速度从头顶掠过，那它的移动速度确实非常快。
And, if it were flying in the in the line of flight and it sped that fast over its head, it was really moving.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，传统的商用飞机能达到每小时400多英里的速度吗？
Well, was a conventional commercial aircraft go 400 plus miles an hour?
美国航空飞行员报告目击了UFO。
American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO.
一名美国航空飞行员称，他在飞行时看到一个细长的圆柱形物体从飞机正上方飞过。
An American Airlines pilot reported seeing a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying.
周日的美国航空2292次航班，从辛辛那提飞往凤凰城，使用的是空客A320飞机，在新墨西哥州东北部上空37000英尺的高度飞行，当时是一次普通的飞行。
Sunday's American Airlines flight, AA2292, was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus a three twenty aircraft over the Northeast portion of New Mexico at 37,000 feet during what was otherwise a routine flight.
其中一名飞行员联系了阿尔伯克基空中交通管制中心。
One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center.
他问：‘你们这里有没有什么目标？’
He said, do you have any targets up here?
我们刚刚有个东西从我们正上方飞过。
We just had something go right over the top of us.
我不太想这么说，但那东西看起来像一个细长的圆柱体，几乎像是巡航导弹那样的东西，以极快的速度从我们头顶掠过。
I hate to say this, but it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing moving really fast right over the top of us.
缺失的是推进系统的特征。
So what's missing is propulsion signature.
对吧？
Right?
所以，应该能明显看出它具备某种推进系统。
So they that should have been evident that, it had some kind of propulsion.
应该会有排气痕迹。
That you could exhaust.
肯定有某种排气现象发生。
Some kind of exhaust was was going on.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
如果它在视线范围内，或者如果他们在它后方，你应该会认为他们能探测到这一点。
You would think that they could detect that if it were in the line of sight, if they were if they were behind it.
不过，这个描述太简短了。
That's a very short description, though.
我的意思是，也许它确实有一种他们看到的推进方式。
I mean, maybe it did have some sort of propulsion that they they saw.
我们看到的就只有这些。
That's all we saw.
我的意思是，也许将来会有一份报告详细描述它。
I mean, maybe there's a report that'll come out where they describe it in detail.
这只是他们上报了这件事。
That's just them calling it in.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
如果它不是特别独特，那可真是个巨大的错误。
If it's not super unique, then it was one hell of a mistake.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，但其实就是这样。
I mean but So It's just yeah.
这种东西很多。
There's a lot of those.
这就是问题所在。
That's the problem.
这种东西有很多，而且还有它们的视频。
There's there's a lot of these, and there's there's video of them.
比如那个，叫什么来着？
Like the the one what is it?
那个在东海岸、以惊人速度在水面上移动的。
The one that's, on the East Coast that's moving over the surface of the water at insane rates of speed.
你看到了，它也没有热信号，也没有明显的推进方式。
And you you see it, and it it also no heat signature, no obvious method of propulsion.
而且它没有表现出特征，因为那个已经被记录过了。
And doesn't exhibit because that one was done.
我认为那是红外摄像机。
I believe it was infrared, the camera.
所以，你应该能看见一些排气痕迹或热信号，显示出它是如何以如此惊人的速度推进的。
So, like, you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing Right.
它是如何以如此惊人的速度推进的。
How it was being propelled at that insane rates of speed.
对。
Right.
你还会听到那些经验丰富的飞行员说的话。
And you hear these pilots who are used to flying.
他们驾驶战斗机，却说：天啊。
They're to flying fighter jets, and they're like, holy shit.
看看这东西。
Look at this thing.
是的
Yeah.
而且他们确实有点吓坏了。
And they're, you know, they're kinda freaking out.
好消息是，现在有更多人拥有相机和手机。
Well, the good news is there's there are so many more people with cameras and with cell phones Yeah.
如今。
These days.
因此，相比25年前1997年的所谓凤凰城光点事件，公众的意识要高得多。
And so you have a much more aware public than you did, what, twenty five years ago in 1997 was the so called Phoenix Lights.
是的。
Yeah.
而且那不仅仅是光点，因为那个飞行器从亚利桑那州北部出发，有人说可能来自内华达州克拉克县，然后在傍晚时分向南飞向凤凰城，成千上万的人看到了它的结构。
And they weren't just lights because that craft started from Northern Arizona, some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix in the twilight of the evening where thousands of people saw structure.
那不仅仅是光点。
It wasn't just lights.
那不仅仅是一些光点，也不可能被误认为是飞机投下的照明弹，因为当时那天根本没有发生过任何此类事件。
It wasn't just, could it be confused with flares dropping aircraft dropping flares, and they and no such things had occurred anyway at that at that time that that day.
所以人们看到的是一个结构体，这个结构体估计有四分之一英里长，呈一种飞镖般的形状。
And, so people saw structure, and the structure was estimated, what, quarter mile maybe from tip to tip, boomerang kind of shape kinda craft.
而且，这本该是新闻界的重磅事件——发生在主要城市上空，有如此多的目击者，但事实却并非如此。
And, and yet that should have been a really big deal, news wise, right over a major city, so many observers, and but it wasn't.
然后你有
And then you have
但其实是有报道的。
But it was, though.
对吧？
Right?
因为我们都知道这件事。
Because we all know about it.
不过，当时的州长是菲夫·西林顿。
Well, but then, of course, the governor at the time was Fife Syrington.
我们现在知道，他当时不知道该怎么办，因为他实际上是一名目击者，这一点他在十年后自己承认了。
And, we know now that he didn't know what to do because he was an actual witness that he he admitted to ten years later of actually being a witness.
对。
Right.
但他不知道该如何应对这件事。
But he he didn't know how to address that.
那是一场著名的新闻发布会。
Well, that was famous press conference
一场著名的新闻发布会。
famous press conference.
你让一个人打扮成外星人，让他这么做。
You had a guy dress up like an alien and made him Exactly.
嘲弄了这件事。
Mocked
是的。
Yeah.
如果他当时做了完全相反的事，他的证词——作为州长和目击者——可能会带来怎样的结果？其他人或许也会纷纷站出来，说‘是的’。
Had just if he had done just the opposite, what might have happened on that with his testimony as being a witness, a governor of a state, and and then draw that and other people then might have come forth more and more volume of of folks saying, yeah.
我也是。
Me too.
我看到了。
I saw it.
我看到了。
I saw it.
以你对政府处理这类信息方式的理解，这种信息并不是人人都能接触到的。
With your understanding of the way the government sort of processes this kind of information that it's it's not it's it's not available to everybody.
至于这些事物到底是什么、不是什么，是否是政府正在研发的某种绝密飞行器，等等，相关信息都十分模糊。
And the the information in terms of, like, what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on or what whatever it is.
除非他们就这些事情召开新闻发布会，否则他们并不一定想公开说明真相。
They they don't if unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily wanna broadcast what it is.
如果这根本不是我们自己的东西，他们就更不想公开了。
And they certainly don't wanna broadcast it if it's not one of ours.
你认为他们联系了州长，告诉他需要对此进行嘲弄，还是你觉得这是他个人的决定？
Do you think that they contacted the governor and and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this, or do you think it was his own personal decision?
我的感觉是，这是他个人的决定。
I my my feeling is it was his personal decision.
我觉得政府现在已经没有那么有组织了。
I and my feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore.
也许以前确实如此，但我不认为没有政府的默许，这种否认还能持续下去。
May maybe it was back some quite a while back, but I don't think that I I think that denial is is able to be to be carried forth without government encouragement.
所以他这么做很可能只是为了让大家平静下来。
So he probably did it just to calm everybody down.
是的。
Yeah.
他可能承受了巨大的压力。
Just mean, probably felt tremendous pressure.
对吧？
Right?
因为我记得这曾是一个巨大的新闻事件。
Because I remember this was an enormous story.
我的意思是，全美国都在讨论这件事，随后出现了各种看似合理的解释，比如投放照明弹。
I mean, it was going all across The United States as people were talking about it, and then there was all sorts of sort of semi reasonable explanations about dropping flares.
关于投放照明弹的说法，问题是它们在空中悬停了很长时间。
The thing about the dropping flares, though, were that they hovered in the sky for a long time.
这根本说不通，哪有照明弹这样的东西。
Like, it didn't make any sense at flare.
它们是在违背重力吗？
Like, are they defying gravity?
怎么可能仅仅因为有多方拍摄的视频记录就对？
How are they just because there's video footage of it from multiple sources Right.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
有家庭录像显示，人们拍到了天空中悬浮着红色光点。
Home footage where people are filming these things where there's these red lights that are just hovering in the sky.
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但这些红光与其他人看到的三角形或飞镖形状的飞行器同时出现。
But the red lights coincided with these triangular shaped vehicles or boomerang shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.
当时有人住在骆驼峰上，而且这个飞行器离地面非常低，他们从侧面看到了它，是的。
Well, there were people living on Camelback Mountain, and that at that this is how low this this craft was to the surface as it it they got a edge on view Yeah.
它几乎直接从他们头顶飞过，刚刚掠过山峰。
Coming practically at them just slightly over the it went over the mountain.
但那没有视频记录。
But there's no video of that.
对吧？
Right?
我不确定有没有。
Not that I I don't know.
可能有。
There could be.
我没见过，我从来没看过。
I don't I I've never seen that.
是97年。
Was 90 '7.
97年。
'97.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你看，那时候的手机，不是每个人都有手机，而且摄像头也不好。
See, that's know, phones back then, not everybody had a phone, and they didn't have good cameras.
对。
Right.
即使到现在，你知道，摄像头虽然普及了，但大多数手机摄像头都无法实现变焦拍摄。
The thing about even today, you know, with cameras and most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom.
比如，除了三星Galaxy系列的新款手机，它们确实有一个模式可以拍摄月亮，因为它们的变焦功能非常出色。
Like, with with the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series, the new ones, they actually have a setting where you could take photographs of the moon because they have some pretty spectacular zoom capabilities.
这真是挺有趣的东西。
It's pretty interesting stuff.
如果你有一台那样的设备，看到天空中的东西，也许就能放大观察它，对吧。
And if you got one of those and you saw something in the sky, maybe you could zoom in on it Right.
然后拍下清晰的照片。
And get a good shot of it.
但你知道，你谈论的是那些距离很远、以惊人速度移动的东西。
But, you know, you're talking about things traveling at insane rates of speed that's very far away.
是的。
Yeah.
反正你也拍不到多少细节。
You're really not gonna get much anyway.
没错。
No.
必须离得足够近，才能看清你所看到的东西到底是什么。
It's gotta be much closer to really have definition of what it is you're looking at.
最近有一个关于一位战斗机飞行员的故事，他拍到了一个形状类似的物体，一个三角形的物体，而且照片非常清晰。
Now there was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object, and, apparently, it was very, very clear image.
那是一张非常清晰的照片，有人猜测有人会发布这张照片，但发布与否存在犹豫。
It was a very clear image, and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were gonna release it, and there was hesitation about releasing it.
你听说过这件事吗？
Do you know about this?
那是东海岸的那个吗？
Well, is that what the one off the East Coast?
非常近的事情。
Real real recently.
没有。
No.
我不熟悉这件事。
I'm not familiar with that.
有件事你知道吗，杰米？
There was do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie?
我想我们之前讨论过这个
I think we discussed it with
你能够看到的那张照片。
The picture that you can, like, see.
他们对它进行了放大。
They zoomed in on it.
那张照片显然是假的。
The the picture apparently is bullshit.
好吧。
Okay.
那张照片显然不是真的。
That picture apparently is not real.
但是
But
但确实有一位飞行员在飞机上拍到了一张，是的。
But there was one taken by a pilot in the plane Yeah.
大概是两三年前的事。
A couple two, three years ago sometime.
哦，是另一个吗？
Oh, a different one?
是这个吗？
Is it that?
你看，现在五角大楼回应并发布了一张由海军飞行员拍摄的、显示不明物体的照片。
See, this is Now he took Pentagon responds to release a photo taken from Navy pilots showing unidentified objects.
你看，我听说这是无稽之谈。
See, I heard that this was nonsense.
我有点觉得
I kinda
我听说一些知情人士说，这并不是他们所指的那张图片。
I heard I heard from people that are in the know that this is not the image that they're talking about.
他们所拥有的那张，据说是来自军方内部人士的说法。
The one they have this is according to people that are in the military.
他们有的那个比这个清晰多了。
The one they have is much clearer than this.
不止一张图片。
There's more than one image.
对吧？
Right?
有好几张呢。
There there's
我不知道。
I don't know.
我们可能在说不同的图片。
We may be talking about different ones.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我不知道。
I don't know.
好的。
Okay.
抱歉，暂停一下。
Break sorry.
对不起。
Sorry.
正在中断。
Breaking.
德布里夫媒体获悉，一张未分类照片被泄露，并据称在情报界广泛传播，该照片据称展示了国防部所称的不明空中现象。
Debrief media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which purportedly shows what the DOD has characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon.
我不确定这是否是，你看。
I don't know if that's see, look.
显然，我只是在瞎说，但我听说那并不是问题照片，真正的问题照片要清晰得多，非常惊人，他们正在争论是否要发布。
Obviously, I'm just talking out of my ass, but what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much much clear image in question that was pretty stunning, that they were debating on whether or not to release.
因为2017年《纽约时报》刊登了一篇头版文章，展示了从视频摄像头和战斗机上拍摄的一些图像，并讲述了戴维·弗弗洛指挥官在圣迭戈海岸遭遇‘ Tic Tac ’不明飞行物的经历。
Because once the New York Times in 2017 published that front page article that showed some of those images that have been captured from the video cameras and that fighter jets experiences and and and talked about commander David Fravor's experience with the Tic Tac UFO off the coast of San Diego.
那种情况在一定程度上缓解了讨论这些话题就会被视为愚蠢的舆论压力。
That sort of, like, released a lot of pressure on the concept of if if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person.
是的，很长时间都是这样。
Right, for a long time.
我肯定你也有过这种经历，因为你在这个领域已经很久了。
And I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in in the game for a long time.
对吧？
Right?
在1970年或1980年讨论UFO时，人们会觉得你可能疯了之类的。
Discussing UFOs in 1970 or in 1980, like, people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something.
对吧？
Right?
那几年我忙着做生意。
I was too busy being in business in those years.
你没有
You didn't
在乎？
care?
我小时候就制定了一项小计划，一心想要从商，积累资源，以便有朝一日能有钱去追逐这些东西。
I had a little plan I was following that I had put together when I was a kid, and I was on a mission to be in business, to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
那是其中之一
That's that's one of
你身上最有趣的事情之一。
the more interesting things about you.
你成了酒店大亨和房地产大亨，积攒了这么多钱，就是为了研究UFO。
Like, you became, like, a hotel tycoon and a real estate tycoon, gathered up all this money so that you could study UFOs.
而且也许还能在太空中做一些有趣的事。
And and do fun things maybe in space.
对。
Yeah.
此外，你还参与了创建人类可以在太空中实际居住的庇护所和结构。
Well, you've also been involved in creating shelters and structures that people can actually live in in space.
对。
Right.
那就是起源，起源是……
That that's the genesis and the genesis
我们称它为B330，我们现在工厂里有的是工程单元，就船体和隔舱而言，还有环形结构。
Well, we call it a b three thirty is what we have in our our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units far as hull and bulkheads are concerned and lingerons.
由于新冠疫情，我们不得不暂停，但我们拥有非常先进的结构。
And, so we had to shut down because of the COVID, and, and but we have very advanced structures.
是的。
Yeah.
这些结构也已经被应用了。
And these have been implemented too.
其中一些实际上已经被你部署了
Some of them have actually been you've actually put these things
我们有一个技术就绪等级9，因为我们有一个结构规模的结构，现在就在国际空间站上。
We we have a TRL nine because we have a structure scale structure, that's on the ISS now.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，从很多方面来说，你参与航空航天和太空旅行的梦想已经成为现实。
So your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in in space travel, like, you're this is real.
没错。
Like Yeah.
你是一个真正拥有合同的人，
You're a guy who actually has contracts with,
与大型政府机构。
you know, big government.
虽然我从未赚回过钱。
Not that I've ever made money back.
你知道的？
You know?
这一直是个无底洞。
It's been a bottomless pit.
真的吗？
Has it been?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
所以你只是出于热情在做这件事？
So you've just done it as a passion?
全靠一点希望和祈祷，你知道的，就是这样。
On a on a maybe a hope and a prayer, you know, kinda thing.
孤注一掷。
Hail Marys.
而其中一部分原因是因为你对外星生命的痴迷吗？
And part of it is because of your obsession with extraterrestrials?
我不知道。
I'm not I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
很可能存在某种联系，因为你意识到，外面远比我们所知和人们所想的要多得多。
Probably there probably is a connection there because you're made aware that there is a whole lot more out there than what we know and and, what people think.
所以很可能一直存在着某种联系。
So that could they are there probably is a connection that was always was.
你有那些图片吗？
Do you have any images of that?
我们调出来看看吧，让别人也能看到我们谈论的你创作的东西。
See let's pull it up so people could see what we're talking about, the stuff that you've created.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这个
So this one
那是我们很久以前做的一个旧版本。
that's that's an older version that we did quite a long time ago.
我们有一个全尺寸的。
We have a full scale.
那只是一个三分之一尺寸的。
That's that's just a one third scale.
基本的建筑特征和生活设施。
Basic architectural features and accommodations for for living.
太空栖息地。
Space habitat.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为那些是全尺寸的建筑渲染图。
I think those are those are full scale architectural renderings.
现在在底部，保持好。
Now down at the bottom, keep okay.
所以这是全尺寸的。
So that's full scale.
就是那个吗
That one right
吗？
there?
是的。
Yeah.
那是旧版本，但也是全尺寸的。
That's that's an old version, but that's a full scale.
那是330立方米，比我们现在有的模型更粗糙。
That's 330 cubic meters, and it's it's a more crude mock up than what we have now.
国际空间站每个模块的标准体积大约是120立方米，最大的也就在120立方米左右。
And the standard volume on a module for the ISS is about a 120 or the largest is around a 120 cubic meters.
所以3.30立方米大约是它的三倍左右。
So $3.30 is about, you know, three almost three times that.
所以，当你设计这样的东西，或者决定要创业制造这些设备时，你采取了哪些步骤？
So when you design one of these things or when you go into business to create one of these things, how what what's the steps that are you're taking?
你会联系工程师吗？
Do contact engineers?
你会引入哪些资源？我的意思是，你如何决定要创业制造这些东西，又如何付诸实施？
Do you bring in, I mean, how do you how do you decide that you wanna go into business to make these things, and how do you go about implementing it?
所以，这其实是一个长达二十年的过程。
So, you know, we it was it's been a twenty year process.
首先，你得尝试去工程化。
And, first, you try to try to engineer.
事实上，关于这个想法的起源并不是我原创的，因为我对NASA在九十年代初做的一个叫TransHab的项目感到难以置信。
I in fact, I nothing about about the origination was original with me because I became, incredulous about what NASA had done in the in the early nineties, with something called the TransHap.
那是一个用于将人类送往火星的飞行器，但国会切断了它的资金。
And, it was a vehicle to take people to Mars, and congress cut the funding for that.
我的天。
And, my god.
他们怎么能做出这样的事？
How could they do such a thing?
因为那艘飞船在很多方面都显得非常酷。
Because it was very apparent apparent that that that craft was really cool for a lot of reasons.
于是我创办了公司，投入资金，并开始朝这个方向努力。
And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that.
大约三年后，我们获得了他们专利的独家许可，仅限于外壳部分。
And then after about three years, acquired a license, exclusive license to use their patent for just for the enclosure.
没有任何使用说明书随附。
No book of instructions came with it.
也没有手册说明该如何操作。
There wasn't a manual saying here's how you do this.
所以我们从零开始，NASA完全没有在架构设计和工程方面提供任何协助。
And so we started from scratch, and we had no assistance from NASA whatsoever in in in arranging architectures and engineering.
然后我们通过反复试验、测试和再测试——包括破坏性测试、长期泄漏测试——来进行研发，因为必须量化材料的强度。
And then through a process of trial and error and testing and testing and testing, destructive testing, long duration leak tests, destructive because you had to to try to quantify the the strength of of the materials.
我们使用的安全系数远高于金属材料的标准。
And we were using factors much more demanding than the factors for metallics.
我们用的是四倍系数，而金属材料可能只有一点二五左右。
Factors of four instead of metallics maybe one and a quarter or something.
我们最终设计出了在弹道冲击下非常耐用的外壳。
And and we finally engineered envelopes that were very durable ballistically.
我们进行了大量所谓的超高速撞击测试，用气枪将颗粒以每秒六到七公里的速度射出，观察结构抵御如此高速物体的能力。
We did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts, tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second, six to seven, depending on the type of gas gun you're using, and, seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast.
实际上，抵御高速物体的防护比抵御较慢的物体（比如子弹）更容易。
Actually, the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet, for example.
这听起来有点疯狂，但不知为何，这是因为
Kinda crazy, but for some reason, that that
当你说到防护时，指的是类似微流星体或太空碎片之类的东西吗？
And when you mean defense, you mean something like micrometeors or space Yeah.
其实是太空垃圾。
Actually junk.
比那还要小。
Smaller than that.
你知道，可能只有几厘米大小，这在历史上已经算是很大的碎片了，比如撞上空间站之类的。
You know, maybe the size of a centimeter, which is actually a big particle historically to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever.
我觉得可能有些太阳探测器曾被这么大的物体击中过。
I think maybe some of the solar rays have been hit by something that large.
但你还要防范辐射。
But So you're defending against also radiation.
铝制结构并不是理想的内部材料，尤其是在低地球轨道以外的深空任务中。
Aluminum structures are not what you want to be inside, especially for deep space missions outside of LEO, low Earth orbit.
还有一种叫做次级辐射的现象会传播开来。
And, there's something called secondary radiation that that propagates.
而背景银河辐射中含有重质质子，危害更大。
So and the background galactic radiation has heavy protons, and and, it's it's more lethal.
那你们是如何为栖息地屏蔽辐射的？
So what did you do to shield your habitats from radiation?
船体没有使用铝结构。
Well, the hull has no aluminum, structure.
船体由多种不同材料的层叠矩阵构成。
So, and the hull is a matrix of many layers of different kinds of materials.
这些材料包括凯夫拉，或者维克特兰之类的。
And those materials are like Kevlar, you know, or Vectran.
我们使用维克特兰有几个原因，但它和凯夫拉类似。
We use Vectran a little bit for a couple reasons, but it's like Kevlar.
通过结合其他一系列材料，你就能逐步形成一种防护层。
And so through a series of of other materials in addition to to that type of material, you start to evolve a shield.
B330整体的防护层厚度约为15到18英寸。
And the shield on a b three thirty overall is about 15 to 18 inches thick.
各层之间存在空隙。
And there is there there are spaces in between layers.
所以并不是说你把它压缩后，厚度就只剩一英尺半了。
So it's not as though you compress it, and it's gonna be a foot and a half thick.
对。
Right.
但正是这些空隙起到了关键作用，它们让碎片破碎并最终变成尘埃。
But it's those spaces that make a difference and how debris breaks up and finally just becomes dust.
但如果碎片速度太快、体积太大，就不会变成尘埃。
Or if it's too fast and too large, it's not dust.
它会继续穿透过去。
It's gonna succeed on going through.
当这种情况发生时，有没有修补方法？
And when it does, is there a patch method
是的。
Yeah.
他们以前曾经用过。
They used to
首先，你得确认船体上是否有其他东西挡着，因为你把船体当作附着表面，所以这个空间非常有用。
First of all, you have to maybe locate there could be things on the hull that are in the way because you use the hull as an attaching surface, and so that volume is very useful.
假设你现在已经定位了它，这取决于粒子的大小。
Assuming you've located it now and it depends on the size of the particle.
如果它真的相当大，就会把附着在洞口上的东西炸飞。
If it actually was significantly large, it'd blow off whatever was attached to the hole.
也许直接在附着物上再打一个洞，这样更容易找到原来的洞口。
Maybe just put another hole right through whatever was attached, so it'd be easier to find the hole.
这是好消息。
That's the good news.
坏消息是，你的气体泄漏得快得多。
Bad news, the gas is you know, your gas is escaping a lot faster.
不过，在一个大体积的空间里，气体完全泄漏还是需要一些时间的。
So you do have some time, though, in a large volume for that gas to totally escape.
所以你必须判断，是否有足够的时间来制作补丁。
So then you have to make a judgment as to, do you have time to create the patch?
这个过程其实相当简单，因为任何你贴上去的东西都会想粘在舱壁上。
And it's actually fairly simple process because anything you put there wants to stick to the wall.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Mhmm.
但如果是篮球那么大的东西，也不会发生爆炸。
But depending on a basketball size something, there's not an explosion.
它不会像气球一样砰地炸开。
It doesn't go boom like a balloon.
它只是漏气，你知道的，你的空气在泄漏。
It just loses gas, you know, your air.
所以，除非你正在舱室里，否则你大概有时间去气闸室。
And, so you'd probably have time to go to the airlock unless, you're on the pod or something.
你有时间逃生。
You'd have time to escape.
但那会是正确的做法。
But that would be the move.
你真的不会
You really wouldn't
能够做到，是的。
be able Yeah.
你希望有能力去别的地方。
You wanna be able to go someplace else.
你知道，希望你能连接到一个能容纳所有乘员的东西上。
You know, hopefully, you're attached to something that can accommodate whoever's on board.
为什么这成了你在航空航天领域的专长？
Why did this become your area of specialty when it comes to aerospace?
比如，你为什么投资这个？
Like, why did you invest in this?
你为什么投资栖息地？
Why'd you invest in habitats?
嗯，我最初和一些其他公司做过一些尝试。
Well, I at first, I played around with some other companies.
我在九十年代末投资了两到三家其他公司。
I invested in two or three other companies in the late nineties.
其中一家是火箭飞机类型的公司。
One, they were rocket plane type companies.
在维珍介入之前，我差点就投资了伯特·鲁坦正在开发的项目。
I came very close to investing in in what Burt Rutan was creating before Virgin came along.
所以我一直在寻找一个地方，把资金、金钱、精力和热情投入到某件事上。
And so I was looking for some place to go, some where to put capital, money, and and energy and passion into something.
于是我做了这些对不同公司的投资，然后偶然发现了TransHap。
And so I did these these investments in these different companies, and then I stumbled on the TransHap.
你知道的吗？
You know?
所以
So
所以你最初的构想可能是某种商业太空旅行类的投资，比如维珍银河之类的
So your initial idea was maybe some sort of commercial space travel type investment, something like Virgin Galactic or something like
是的。
Yeah.
我真的不知道。
I really didn't know.
我认为最吸引人的是伯特正在研究的东西。
I think the most enticing thing was what, Bert was working on.
而且那个项目的商业模式非常有吸引力。
And and that the financial model for that was very attractive.
我认为他当然是一位航空设计天才。
And I think he was of course, he's a aircraft design genius.
他获得过无数奖项。
He has so many awards.
简直数都数不清。
Hardly can count them.
当你走向他的办公室时，走廊两侧从地板到天花板挂满了奖牌。
As you walk down the hallway to his office, it's like floor to ceiling plaques.
你知道吧？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
搞了几个讲座当纪念品，你知道的，或者类似的东西。
Got a couple lecture just for souvenirs, you know, or something.
你知道吧？
You know?
而且他确实是个天才。
But and so he's he's a total genius.
顺便说一下，他一生都记得自己的一次UFO目击经历。
And he, by the way, had his own UFO sighting that has stayed with him all his life.
他当时多大年纪？
When how old was he when he had
我不知道。
I don't know.
你得从他那里听这个故事，但真的很值得听。
You'll have to get that story from him, but it's worth listening to.
有太多人经历过这种事了。
It so many people have.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以，总之，我就是这样开始接触这个领域的，我爱上了可扩展系统这个概念——用一个有限直径和长度的整流罩发射东西，然后在进入太空后，体积能扩大三倍，你知道吗？整流罩打开后，就开始扩展和充气。
So, anyway, that's how I I started in that, and I fell in love with the concept of of expandable systems, launching something with a finite, fairing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that that volume once it's ejected and it's it's launched, you know, and the fairing opens up, and now you start to expand and inflate.
哇哦。
And, wow.
利用这个空间能做的所有事情都太酷了。
All that you can do with that volume is is really cool.
所以，这让你能够——我是说，如果你和IS资产合作，这些合同是和NASA签的吗？还是你和谁合作？
And so this allowed you to I mean, these contracts, if you're doing with the IS asset, are they with NASA or, like, who is that who you you work with?
是的。
Yeah.
对我们大多数人来说，NASA基本上是唯一的选择。
NASA's basically has been the only game in town for us and for most folks.
在火箭行业，除了空军为卫星购买发射服务外，其他人都还在依赖这个体系。
Most folks in the rocket business, other than for the Air Force who buys launches for satellites, is the game still.
当NASA财政困难时，所有人都会受影响。取决于国会、NASA和白宫谁在领导，我们能做出非凡的成就。
And when NASA's financially hurting, everybody hurts, Depending upon who who is providing the leadership, both in congress and in NASA and in the White House, you can do fantastic things.
所以，这一切都取决于人们是否能齐心协力。
So it's all a combination of whether or not people can all work together.
如果他们在国会里互相争斗，你就很难取得进展，无法实现本可达成的目标。
If they're fighting in congress and going on, you're not gonna get much you're not gonna go go places like you could.
是的。
Yeah.
既然你参与了这些栖息地的研制，又长期痴迷于UFO和外星生命，能与NASA合作一定非常令人兴奋。
So with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long standing obsession with UFOs and potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting.
你可能会想：也许我现在能学到些什么了。
You're like, well, maybe I'm gonna learn something now.
当然了。
Oh, definitely.
你肯定会学到东西。
You're definitely gonna learn.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
他们有很多优秀且非常专业的人员，所以你会学到很多。
They have a lot of good people and very expert people, so you're gonna learn a lot.
这是个吸收一切知识的好地方。
It's a great place to to sponge all that you can.
但我是说，关于UFO和外星生命的学习。
But I mean, learn things about UFOs and alien life.
哦，那个。
Oh, that.
哦，那个。
Oh, that.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我刚才在谈常规的太空旅行。
I I was back I was back about, you know, space conventional space travel.
嗯，那也是。
Well, that too.
还有什么更好的方式呢？
And what better way
去学习？
to learn?
你不可能从科学界的绝大多数人那里了解到任何关于UFO和外星生命的信息，这包括NASA和其他所有机构。
You're not gonna learn anything about UFOs and ET from the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the scientific community, and that includes NASA and everybody else.
他们不感兴趣吗？
Are they not interested?
我认为这是多种因素的综合结果。
I think it's a combination of things.
我认为原因并不是他们不感兴趣，其实很多人都是感兴趣的，因为我经常被问到这些问题。
I think the reason for that is not because they're not not interested, and a lot of people are, because I'm asked things all the time.
很多人都是感兴趣的。
A lot of people are.
我认为总是存在一种尴尬的顾虑。
I think there's always the concern of embarrassment.
我认为他们并不具备从事调查的条件。
I I think they're not in a position to be an investigator.
他们可能有热情想去做，但这需要时间。
They might have a passion and wanna do that, but it takes time.
做这些事情需要时间和精力。
It takes time and effort to go do those things.
而通常，人们更愿意专注于自己的本职工作。
And usually, you wanna stick to what your career is.
对吧？
Right?
所以，也许他们家里有人有过非常精彩的故事，于是他们会一直铭记在心。
So, then maybe they they've had somebody in their family that has had a tremendous story, and so, they'll carry that with them.
他们可能会买书，然后放在家里收藏。
And they might be, they might buy the books they keep at home.
他们可能会自带便当。
They might brown bag it.
你知道的。
You know?
嗯。
Mhmm.
不会把饭带到食堂吃，以免别人看到你吃的是什么。
Not bring it to the lunch at commissary where other people can see what you're eating.
对。
Right.
你知道的。
You know?
所以这涉及各种不同的情况，每个人都不一样。
So it's all different kinds of things, so everybody's different.
对吧？
Right?
所以，在追求外星人相关想法时，会不会带有一点羞耻感之类的东西？
So there's kind of a maybe a shame or something along that line involved in pursuing extraterrestrial ideas?
没有以前那么严重了。
Not as much as it used to be.
是的。
Right.
二十年前、三十年前情况要糟糕得多。
Now it was much worse twenty, thirty years ago.
那时候是什么样子？
What was it like then?
就我所知，当时的科学界整体上对谈论UFO的态度，比现在要保守得多。
Well, as I could speak to to, you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to to talk about, UFOs thirty years ago, I think, than today.
媒体上的曝光多了很多。
There's been so much more exposure, on the media.
是的。
Mhmm.
现在电视上经常有外星人、ET、古代外星人之类的节目。
So because you have regular television program now on aliens, ETs, ancient aliens, whatever.
这都不重要。
It doesn't matter.
跟二十五年前相比，现在到处都是这类话题。
It's all over the place compared to twenty five years ago.
所以这是一个完全不同的世界。
So it's a it's a different kind of world.
但当你持续研究并深入这个UFO和外星人领域时，会有一种奇怪的挫败感——你对推进方式、运动原理以及我们所处位置的可能性有了一点理解，却发现我们还在用消防车。
But, the thing about the UFOET subject as you continue to do research and and work in that whole community is a kind of a strange frustration about acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion, of movement, and where we are, that we're still working with fire engines.
你知道吗？
You know?
感谢像埃隆和杰夫·贝佐斯这样的人。
And thank god for people like Elon and and Jeff Bezos.
我真的很尊重这些人，包括埃隆的秘密武器——格温，你知道的，他的总裁。
I I really respect those guys and including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen, you know, his president.
国家能拥有他们真是太幸运了。
Those are the the country is so lucky to have them.
但UFO和外星人的动态性如此令人震撼，让人难以想象那个世界是什么样子。
But the the dynamicism of UFOs and ETs is so overwhelming as to what that world is like.
如果这一切都是真的，哪怕只有一部分是真的，那也不仅仅是‘天哪’那么简单。
And if it's all true or even some of it true, it's more than just a holy cow.
而是‘我的天啊’。
It's oh my god.
你知道吗？
You know?
这简直是天壤之别。
So it's like night and day comparison.
而我们现在还停留在2021年，仍然在等待重返月球。
And and here we are still in 2021 and, still waiting to get back to the moon.
我想，我们之前谈到过《纽约时报》的那篇文章。
Well, I think when we so we were talking earlier about the New York Times article.
我认为，那是文化接受这些现象的一个关键转折点。
I think that was a a real, a pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things.
因为当你看到这样的内容刊登在《纽约时报》头版上时，
Because when you see something like printed on the front page of the New York
确实如此。
Times For sure.
当你看到像弗拉沃指挥官这样的人，是的，
You know, when you see, like, people like Commander Fravor Yeah.
他备受尊敬，完全值得尊重。
Very well respected, You know, all full respect.
没人会觉得他是个怪人。
No one no one thinks that guy's a kook.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
你读过他的经历后，就会想，
You you read about his experiences, and you go,
好的。
okay.
当然。
Absolutely.
这件事确实有蹊跷。
There's something to this.
是的。
Yeah.
撰写那篇文章的记者莱斯利·基恩做得非常出色。
And Leslie Keane, the journalist that did that article, did a terrific job.
做得太棒了。
Fantastic job.
太棒了
Just fantastic
描绘了对某人而言危险的主题。
portraying dangerous subject for someone.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
你是对的。
You're Yeah.
你可能会遭到嘲笑。
You're open to ridicule.
当然。
And Sure.
但大量证据已经积累到一定程度，足以让你说：听好了。
But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there where you could say, listen.
这已经不是应该被嘲笑的事情了。
This is not something to be mocked anymore.
这件事有一些
There's something to
道理。
this.
对。
Right.
没错。
That's right.
当你有像法伯指挥官这样的人，而且我们还聘用了那里的飞行员道格。
When you have you have, like, commander Faber, and and we hired Doug, one of the pilots there.
我们在2008年了解到这件事。
We learned about that in o eight.
事件发生在2004年。
The event happened in o o four.
所以你有非常可信的人目睹了某些完全异常、根本不该如此行为的事物。
So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomalous and has no business doing what it's doing.
对。
Right.
所以你必须认真对待这件事。
So you gotta take it really seriously.
唐纳德，那些被仪器追踪到的事物，曾从八万英尺高空瞬间下降到离地一英尺，然后前往预定的飞机后续飞行目的地。
Donald, yeah, things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from, well, it's like 80,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second, and then traveled to the the the agreed upon destination where the the plane is gonna go later.
是的。
Yeah.
它们似乎知道自己的目的地在哪里。
Like, the they knew it knew where they were traveling to.
它能以一种疯狂的速度移动，这种速度完全违背了我们曾经设想过的任何技术原理。
It was able to travel at an insane rate of speed that's not even it doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized.
没错。
No.
不。
No.
所以这些是被仪器追踪到的现象。
So these are these are things that were tracked by instrumentation.
这些并不是最顶尖的仪器。
So it's not this is the best instrumentation.
这些是美国军方用来保护边境的仪器。
This is instrumentation that's used by the United States military to protect the borders.
这些都是实实在在的东西。
It's all the real shit.
所以当你在《纽约时报》上读到这些内容时，每个人都不得不承认：是的。
So when you read things like that in the New York Times, everybody has to kinda go, Yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
然后你再把这与过去五十年、六十年、七十年间发生的数十万甚至数百万其他事件和故事结合起来。
And then and you couple that with hundreds of thousands or millions of other events and stories that have happened over the last fifty, sixty, seventy years.
你会想，天哪。
You you think, oh my god.
我们远远落后于其他正在发生的事情，你知道的。
We're so far behind, you know, of what else is going on.
对。
Right.
因为我们一直害怕被嘲笑。
Because we've been so afraid of ridicule.
我们要花多久才能达到那个地步？
How long is it gonna take us to get to that point?
对。
Right.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们甚至能理解它的物理原理的初步阶段吗？
And do we even understand be even be the beginnings of the physics of it?
因为如果它们是意识驱动的呢？
Because what if they're consciousness operated?
你知道的。
You know?
就是这样。
That's it.
你没有正确的信号和心理特征。
You don't have the right signal mental signature.
这不会有任何进展。
It isn't going anywhere.
什么都没有发生。
Nothing is coming on.
不。
No.
没有灯光。
There's no lights.
瞧好了。
Ta da.
仪表盘没亮。
The dash didn't light up.
对。
Right.
所以有点像当你
So Sort of like when you
走到你的车旁，比如我有一辆福特F-150。
walk up to your car, like, I have a a Ford f one fifty.
当我靠近它时，它知道我来了，因为我的智能钥匙。
When I get near it, it knows I'm there because my key fob Sure.
你知道的。
You know?
当我触碰门把手时，或者像特斯拉，别人有你的
And when I touch the handle or like a Tesla somebody else has your
钥匙扣，是的。
key fob Yes.
它会亮起来的。
It's gonna it's gonna light up.
不像特斯拉的钥匙扣那样，当你靠近时，门把手会自动弹开，你就可以开门了。
Instead of it being, like like, a Tesla key fob, when you get to it, the the handle opens up so you could open the door.
对。
Right.
比如，当你靠近它时，它会……
Like, as you get close to it, it's
挺酷的。
pretty cool.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
但事实上，它其实是你的意识。
But instead of that, it's actually your consciousness.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你根本不在它附近呢？
And what if you're not even close to it?
是的。
Yeah.
如果你在地球的另一端，想启动它呢？
What if you're on the other side of the planet and you want it to start?
比如，你可以通过一个应用程序来控制汽车。
Like, you can with a car with a with an application.
比如，如果你有一辆特斯拉，可以用应用程序升起车窗。
Like, if you have a Tesla, you could roll your windows up with the app.
你也可以用应用程序锁车。
You could lock it with the app.
对吧？
Right?
它通过Wi-Fi运行。
It operates through Wi Fi.
是的。
Yeah.
谁说意识不能以类似的方式运作呢？
Who's to say they can't do something like that with with consciousness?
是的。
Yeah.
我们根本一无所知。
We have no no idea.
我的意思是，这甚至并不违背常理。
I mean, it's not even that's not even outside of what makes sense.
你知道，如果你看看过去十五年、二十年里技术的发展，再设想一下未来一百年、一千年甚至十万年可能实现的技术突破。
You know, if you if you looked at, like, if you follow the the technology and the technological improvements over the last fifteen, twenty years, and you you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next hundred or a thousand or a hundred thousand years.
我会说，是的。
I go, yeah.
这根本不算疯狂。
That's not even crazy.
是的。
Yeah.
在我看来，我们的物理学是不完整的，因为它无法解释所有超自然现象。
Well, in our physics physics is incomplete, in my humble opinion, because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal basket.
不只是我们讨论的外星人和UFO，还有许多其他类型的现象，多年来在实验室里，由人们在摄像机前做过许多奇怪的事情。
Not not just what we're talking about with ET UFOs, but all the all the other kinds of stuff that is done and has been done in laboratories for many, many years on camera, by by people that have performed really strange things.
你是说量子力学和……
You mean, like quantum mechanics and
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
比如微观和宏观PK。
Like micro macro PK.
就拿一个简单的例子来说。
Just take something simple.
那是什么？
And what is that?
微观和宏观就是操控物质对象，无论是电子之类的，还是瓶盖。
Micro macro Just manipulating, material objects, whether they're electrons and and so, or or a bottle cap.
假设你有一台电脑屏幕，它连接着一个随机事件生成器，每秒反复抛硬币数十万次，并在屏幕上形成一条稳定的50比50的直线。
So let's say you've got a screen computer and it's hooked up to a random event generator, which is flipping a coin many, many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm even line, this fifty fifty across your screen.
然后另一条线出现，你的任务是让这两条线发生偏离。
And then there's another line coming along, and your challenge is to is to have the two lines deviate.
所以你正在——我不知道。
So you're you're and I don't know.
自从我在皮尔实验室和鲍勃、约翰以及布伦达·邓恩一起工作以来，已经过去很多年了。
I've it's been so many years since I I was in the Pear Lab with Bob John and and Brenda Dunn.
我记不清具体的细节了，但重点是，屏幕上出现了一条第二条线，你需要去思考并尝试让它偏离。
I forget the exact details on this, but the point was there was a line that was created, a second line, that you were to think about and try to deviate that line.
而你根本不可能做到这一点。
And you should not be able to do that at all.
所以，屏幕上可能原本是一条平直的线，然后你有一个随机事件生成器，应该和这条线完全一致，保持百分之五十对百分之五十。
So they have maybe a once flat line on the screen, and then you have this random event generator that should be fifty fifty right alongside that same line.
但它并没有。
But it's not.
你正在让它上升，或者让你让它下降。
You're causing it to go up or you're causing it to go down.
很多人在这项实验中都成功了，非常多非常多的人。
And they had a lot of people successful on this, many, many, many.
他们进行了大量成功的试验。
And they did just a huge number of trials that were successful.
所以，这是在最小的层面上。
So that's in the smallest context.
你记得那位俄罗斯女性，科利尼亚，名字大概是这样，她曾用钟罩里的物体做实验。
You had, well, that Russian woman, Kolygnia, something like that was her name, that worked with objects in a bell jar.
她能够操控这些物体，让它们旋转，让它们升起。
And she would be able to manipulate them, cause them to spin, cause them to lift.
还有物体。
And Objects.
什么样的物体？
What kind of objects?
小物体。
Small objects.
就是一些很小的东西。
You know, something something small.
显微镜级别的？
Microscopic?
不，不是。
Like No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
比如瓶盖。
Like a bottle cap.
你知道的。
You know?
差不多这么大。
Something that size.
所以是一种心灵遥感？
So some sort of telekinesis?
宏观心灵致动。
Macro PK.
所以这是一种意识连接，导致了对那个物体的影响。
So you're it's it's it's some kind of a consciousness connection that is causing the effect, that effect on that object.
这个有被拍下来吗？
And this is something that's been filmed?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以这个女人在做什么？
So this woman is doing what?
她在相对较年轻的时候就去世了。
And she she died at a relatively young age.
他们说她的心跳会达到每分钟180次或90次。
Her heart, they said, would go up to, like, a 180 beats or 90 beats a minute.
而她做这件事的时候？
And I While she was doing this?
是的。
Yeah.
而她只是
And I she was just
在测试这位女士吗？
testing this lady?
哦，你这位男士真厉害。
Oh, your guy is good.
他是最好的。
He's the best.
他确实是最好的。
He is the best.
那么她在这里做什么？
So what is she doing here?
嗯，她正在
Well, she's
哦，这可是很老的东西了。
Oh, this is, like, really old stuff.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
她在移动那些火柴吗？
She's moving those matches?
对。
Yeah.
但她也在移动那块金属。
But she's also moving that piece of metal.
对。
Right.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有其他的例子，她会这么做，而这些东西当时应该是在一个玻璃罩里，我想。
And there's other ones where she would do this, and these things would be in a bell jar, I believe.
所以她并没有碰它。
So she's not touching it.
她在让它移动。
She's making it move.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得他们真的把她累垮了。
And I think they literally wore her out.
这是哪一年？
What year is this?
大概是六十年代，甚至更早。
Like, sixties or before that even.
对。
Yeah.
但这里有个问题。
But here's my problem.
这是放在桌上的东西。
This is something that's on the table.
对。
Right.
我看不见桌子下面。
I can't see below the table.
我看不见有没有一根棒子或者磁铁。
I can't see if there's a bat a magnet.
我看不清这副牌下面有什么。
I can't see what's underneath this deck of cards.
有一块金属。
There's a piece of metal.
你可以用一些诡计来移动东西。
And you can move things around with fuckery.
我不知道这是否是真的。
I don't know if this is real.
那些火柴在移动是因为那块金属在推动火柴。
And those matches were moving because that piece of metal was moving the matches.
对吧？
Right?
所以那块金属在推着火柴，而她正控制着它移动。
So the piece of metal was plowing the matches, and she's got it moving around.
我不相信这套说辞。
I I'm not buying into this.
但表面上看
But on its face
是的。
Yeah.
这真的很引人入胜。
It's really intriguing.
这确实引人入胜，但只是一个把戏。
It's intriguing, but it's a party trick.
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