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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
快来看看。
Check it out.
《乔·罗根体验》这档节目。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
白天黑夜都在听乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
很高兴认识你，布莱恩。
Nice to meet you, Brian.
很高兴认识你，乔。
Nice to meet you, Joe.
很荣幸来到这里。
Pleasure to be here.
你是我聊过的四五个人中，见过可能来自其他地方的东西的人之一。
You're one of four or five people that I've talked to that have seen something that might be from somewhere else.
跟可能见过那种东西的人聊天总是很奇怪。不过，在我们开始之前，先请你介绍一下你的资历和背景吧。
It's always weird when you talk to someone that may have seen something that well, let's just first, before we even get started, please tell people your credentials, what your background is.
当然可以。
Sure.
嗯，我叫瑞安·格雷夫斯。
So, you know, my name is Ryan Graves.
我有工程学位，机械和航空航天工程。
I have a engineering degree, mechanical and aerospace engineering.
大学一毕业，我就立刻转行去海军飞F-18了。
I promptly left doing that to go fly F-18s for the Navy as soon as I graduated college.
我飞了大约十年，既参加过实战行动，也当过教官，教新学员。
Did that for about a decade, both operationally in combat as well as in an instructor role, teaching the new students.
而且，我们在飞行中确实目睹了一些东西，但那是我们在日常飞行和任务中看到的。
And, you know, we did witness something while we were flying in our jets, but, you know, we're doing it under we witnessed it in the context of our just everyday flying in our missions.
你是在哪一年看到这个的？
And what year was it that you witnessed this?
我们最早是在2014年开始看到这些的，据我所知。
So we started seeing these in 2014 was the earliest that I know.
2013年，2013年底，2014年初。
2013, late twenty thirteen, early twenty fourteen.
你能描述一下第一次的经历吗？
And could you describe what was the very first experience?
好的。
Yeah.
对我来说，那次经历其实就是像往常一样飞到那个区域。
So, yeah, for me personally, the experience was simply just flying out to the area like I would any other day.
但看到的不是空旷的空域，只有我的僚机或者另一个中队在别的地方训练，而是突然出现了很多不同的雷达信号，这立刻就成了问题，因为你知道，我们可能会撞上其中一个，或者有人在我们的区域里作业。
And instead of seeing an empty airspace with just my wing person or another squadron doing something a different block, there were all sudden a lot of different radar contacts, which is immediately a problem because, you know, we could be hitting one of those or someone working in our area.
据我们判断，这是因为我们升级了雷达。
And this was happening because we upgraded our radar the best we could tell.
我们之前用的是老式的APG 73雷达，刚从部署任务回来。
We were in a earlier radar called the APG 73, and we had come back from deployment.
然后进入了所谓的维护阶段。
We entered a maintenance phase, it's called.
我们飞行次数会少一些，如果需要的话，也会对飞机进行升级。
We kinda do a little bit less flying, upgrade the jets if we need to.
我们需要进行长期维护，然后我们升级到了APG 79，那款雷达好多了。
We need long lasting maintenance, and and we upgraded to the APG 79, which was a much better radar.
那升级后的雷达系统和原来的系统相比，在性能上有什么不同呢？
And what is the difference in the capabilities of the upgraded radar system versus the original system?
对。
Mhmm.
所以，实际上，这就好比从模拟电视直接跳到OLED电视。
So, you know, kind of practically speaking, it's like going from an analog TV essentially to, like, an OLED.
它是一款数字化的现代工具，而原来的雷达更像是模拟的经典款，探测距离有限，同时追踪多个目标的能力也较弱，诸如此类。
It's, you know, a digital modern tool compared to more of, an analog classical radar that has more limited range and has less ability to track multiple targets and things of that nature.
所以一般来说，我们会看到更多物体，如果那里有任何物体的话，或者更小的物体，但那里不应该有任何物体。
So just generally speaking, we would expect expect to see, you know, more objects if there were any out there or smaller objects, but there shouldn't have been any objects out there.
那这一切发生的时候，你们离海岸有多远？
And so how far offshore are you when this is all going down?
我们的工作区域从离海岸大约10英里开始，然后向外延伸，大概100到250英里，但我们通常不会用到那些最东边的区域。
Our working areas start about 10 miles off the coast, and then it goes out, you know, a 100 or 250 miles or so that we don't usually use those far eastern areas.
但我们只会在水面上看到它们。
But we would only see them over the water.
所以它们真的只会在我们的工作区域内，可能稍微在工作和陆地之间，但绝不会在陆地上空，有时会在该地区相当大的海湾上空，但绝不会像那样向西飞越陆地。
So they would really only be in our working areas, maybe slightly, you know, in between the working area and land, but never over the land, sometimes over the bays that are in the area that are quite large, but never just kinda zooming west over land or anything like that.
这是限制空域吗？
And is this restricted airspace?
不是。
It's not.
所以这是个棘手的问题。
So that's a tricky question.
对我们来说，在军事行动区里操作，它并不是那种限制空域，不是说只有一个人能进去。
For us operating in a in a military operating area, it is not restricted in the sense that you have to be the there's only one person allowed in there.
可能会有那种小塞斯纳飞机在里面乱飞，但很快就会被叫出来，不管是那边的空中交通管制部门，还是在那里作业的F-18和其他飞机。
You could have these little Cessnas kind of bumbling in there, but they would get called out pretty quick, both from the kind of air traffic control agency that's working out there, as well as F-18s and the other aircraft that may be working out there.
但从更广的角度看，如果考虑到我们的防空识别区，那基本上就是环绕整个国家的一条空域带。如果你的飞行路径是从海上、在那个防空识别区之外开始的，然后进入那个区域，进入我们的管制空域，那你确实需要得到许可才能进入。
But in a broader sense, when we look at it, in relation to our air defense identification zone, which is essentially a band of airspace that surrounds our entire country, If you are, if your flight path originates out over the water outside of that ADES and you proceed into that ADES, into our controlled airspace, then you do have to essentially have permission to enter that airspace.
它不像传统的轰炸靶场那样是限制空域，但它是受保护的领空。
It's not a restricted airspace like a traditional bombing range, but it is protected airspace.
那是我们的沿海领空。
It's our it's our coastal air.
所以你们有升级后的雷达系统。
So you have this upgraded radar system.
你们探测到了什么？
And what are you detecting?
在雷达上，我们真正能获取的信息主要是物体的运动学特征。
So on the radar, really, what we can learn from that is essentially the kinematics of the object.
所以基本上就是它在哪，往哪个方向飞，速度多快，诸如此类的信息。
So where is it essentially and what direction is it going, how fast is it going, things of that nature.
我们不一定能判断出它的形状或者其他类似的特征。
We can't necessarily make up the shape or things of that nature.
所以它只是一个表示。
So it's a representation.
就像我们屏幕上的一个方块，用来显示这些信息。
It's like a block on our screen to show that information.
所以当我们在雷达上看到它时，我们能知道它的位置，也许还能知道它周围有什么，如果我们在探测其他物体的话，还能知道它飞得多快，朝哪个方向，以及它的飞行方向。
And so when we see that on our radar, we can tell, you know, where it's located, you know, perhaps what's located around it, if there's other objects we're detecting, how fast it's going, what direction it's pointed in, what direction it's traveling in.
我们称之为速度矢量。
So we call that velocity vector.
所以如果我们看到这个基本上是个小圆圈，它会有一条尾巴拖出来。
So if we see this essentially little circle, we'll have a tail coming off of it.
那条尾巴大致代表飞行器的头部，至少是沿着它的飞行路径的方向。
And that tail kind of represents the nose of the vehicle, at least as its flight path is going.
所以，你知道，我们通常看到飞机就是沿着一条直线慢慢飞，偶尔转个弯。
And so with that, you know, we would typically see an aircraft just kind of trudgling along with a straight line, taking occasional turns.
但这些物体的飞行路径有点不太一样，我不想说随机，但确实不太受控。
But these objects had a little bit more of a, I don't want say random, but more less controlled flight path.
那个速度矢量会跳来跳去。
That velocity vector would kind of jump around a bit more.
它们不会像你想象中飞行导航计算机那样，沿着一条完美的直线前进。
They would not proceed in like a perfectly straight line as you would imagine like a a flight navigation computer would take you.
对吧？
Right?
导航会带你从A点到B点走最直的路线。
It takes you from a to b in the straightest line possible.
这些物体似乎在朝着一个方向移动，但不是直线，大体上还是往那个方向去。
These objects seem to kind of be moving in a direction that was not a straight line, but generally proceeding in that direction.
所以它们会稍微有点蜿蜒，但总体上还是朝那个方向移动，无论是三维空间还是水平方向。
And so they would kind of be meandering slightly, but moving in that general direction, both three dimensionally and horizontally.
所以它们
So they're
绕来绕去，上升下降。
winding around, going up, going down.
对。
Mhmm.
所以它们不是在一个平面上，也不是直线飞行。
So they're not on a flat plane, and they're not going in a straight line.
我不想下太绝对的结论，因为我们也见过它们平飞的。
So I don't wanna draw too many firm statements like that because we would see them being flat too.
我们也见过它们在空中完全静止，不管风多大。
We'd see them perfectly stationary up there regardless of the wind.
真的吗？
Really?
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yep.
哇。
Wow.
那你说的风是什么样的风？
So what kind of wind are you talking about?
哦，天哪。
Oh, gosh.
我的意思是，在高空，风速可以达到每小时一百到一百二十节。
I mean, at altitude, you can have anywhere up to a hundred, hundred and twenty knots of airspeed.
那换算成英里每小时是多少？
Which is what is that in miles per hour?
大概是一百到一百三十、一百四十英里
It's about a hundred and hundred and thirty, 140 miles
每小时。
an hour.
所以它们完全静止不动，却顶着每小时140英里的风？
So they're completely stationary with a 140 mile an hour wind?
没错。
Correct.
那它们是怎么做到的呢？
How would something do that?
我也觉得挺困惑的。
It's confusing to me as well.
就算我们有什么东西能消耗那么多能量。
Even if we had something that could just burn that much energy.
对吧？
Right?
比如，一个球体周围装满了小火箭。
Like, you had a sphere surrounded by little rockets.
对吧？
Right?
我现在就在想象一个东西。
Just imagining something right now.
好的。
Okay.
如果你想让它完全静止，对抗重力，对吧。
And if you wanted to keep that perfectly stationary, right, against gravity.
你可以让底部的所有火箭快速喷射，希望能保持它平稳。
You could just fire all the rockets at the bottom really fast and hopefully keep it flat.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
它会有微小的变化。
It's gonna have tiny little variations.
然后如果有风吹到它，还有其他因素，你可能会让那些火箭尝试抵消，但在那样的风中它永远不可能完全静止。
And then if you have wind hitting it and all this, you could potentially have those rockets try to counter it, but it would never be perfectly still in winds like that.
因为风也不是完全静止的。
Because the wind's not perfectly still either.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Exactly.
它一直在变化。
It changes and varies.
确实。
It does.
所以感觉它好像不是在跟风对抗。
So it's almost like it's the wind it's not even really fighting the wind, it seems.
你知道吗？
You know?
它好像就是那样悬在那里。
It just seems like it's it's just there in a way.
哇。
Wow.
那你第一次看到这些东西的时候，心里是怎么想的？
So the first time you see these things, what are your thoughts?
对。
Yeah.
第一次看到的时候，其实就是，嗯，这到底是什么？
The first time really was, well, you know, what is this?
对吧？
Right?
那时候还不觉得是UFO或者什么神秘的东西。
It's not a UFO or something mysterious at this point.
那时候我们觉得雷达上看到的，就是，嗯，我们的雷达坏了。
It's at what we're thinking at this point we see on the radar is just, well, our radar is broken.
对吧？
Right?
这些可能还不代表实际的物体，因为我们还没在视觉上看到它们，或者还没在摄像头上看到它们。
These perhaps don't represent physical objects yet because we hadn't visually seen these or seen them on our camera yet.
所以我们有点像是在说，嘿，这里发生了什么？
And so we kind of like, hey, what's going on here?
有没有其他人也看到这种情况？
Is anyone else seeing this kind of thing?
但并没有真的去调查，对吧？
But not really like investigating it, right?
只是觉得，好吧，那边有东西，但也许下次我们再看看。
It's just kind of like, all right, there was stuff out there, but maybe next time we'll take a look.
但我们的系统运作方式是，当雷达上有这么多目标时，如果我们用光标随便选一个，所有传感器都会指向它。
But the way our systems work when we have all these contacts on our radar and if we kind of just select one out with our little cursor there, all our sensors go to it.
我们的FLIR会指向它，那是我们的摄像系统。
Our FLIR goes to it, is our camera system.
我们的所有武器，它们某种程度上都有自己的小眼睛，它们都会朝那个方向看。
All our weapons, they have their own little eyes in some sense, they all look in that direction.
所以最后，有人选中了其中一个目标，飞得足够近，这样当他们看FLIR系统，也就是他们的摄像头时，就能看到雷达上那个位置对应的东西。
And so eventually, someone had one of these selected and flew close enough so that, as they look at their FLIR system, their camera, they could see something that was at the spot represented on the radar.
对吧？
Right?
所以那里确实有东西。
So there was something there.
所以他们是用自己的眼睛直接看到的吗？
So they were seeing it visually with their own eyes?
这时候还没有。
Not at this point.
只是在FLIR上看到的。
Just on the the FLIR
系统。
system.
FLIR系统。
The FLIR system.
所以那是一个普通摄像头，也是一个红外摄像头。
And so that's a it's a regular camera and also an infrared camera.
而且通常我们会用红外模式，因为一般来说红外图像更清晰。
And so, typically, we'll roll around in infrared just because it returns a better image, typically.
所以，是的，你知道，他们在红外系统上看到的并不像一个物体。
So So yeah, you know, it didn't look like an object they were seeing on the FLIR.
它看起来更像是一种红外能量源，就好像有人拿着手电筒在照一样。
It just looked like a source of IR energy in a sense, almost as if someone was shining a flashlight.
但肯定有什么东西在那里，才能反射或产生这种能量。
But something had to be there to be reflecting that energy or creating it.
所以到这个时候，回答你的问题，我们开始觉得，好吧，这不仅仅是雷达上的一个错误。
So at this point, to answer your question, now we're like, Okay, this isn't just an error on our radar.
这可能是，你知道，我们认为这是真实存在的。
This is perhaps you know, we're thinking this is real.
我们现在必须把它当作一个安全隐患来认真对待。
We have to really respect this as like a safety hazard now.
哪怕只是一小块，你知道，一小条锡箔纸。
Even if it's just a small, you know, I I you know, however, a small ribbon of tinfoil.
对吧？
Right?
比如，被吸进发动机里，照样能把飞机搞下来。
Like, that sucked down the engine and still take out an aircraft.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们得认真对待这个。
So we have to be very respectful of that.
就像那种聚酯薄膜气球之类的东西？
Like a Mylar balloon type thing?
有可能。
Potentially.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
但这些飞行器的速度有多快？
But how fast are these things going?
有时候它们是静止的。
So sometimes stationary.
对吧？
Right?
有时候它们的速度大约在0.6到0.8马赫，在高空大概相当于240到330节左右。
Sometimes they would be going around point six to point eight Mach, which is at altitude about, you know, 240 to maybe 330 knots, you know, around there.
所以差不多和飞机一个速度范围。
So somewhere in the range of an an airplane.
是的。
Yeah.
战斗机通常也是以这样的速度飞行，但有时候它们也会完全静止不动。
And a fighter aircraft would be kind of flying around at those airspeeds, except sometimes they would be perfectly stationary as well.
对。
Right.
所以它没有表现出你以前认识到的任何模式？
So it's not exhibiting any sort of patterns that you've recognized in the past?
没有。
No.
其实有的。
They have actually.
所以虽然静止的时候没有。
So although With the stationary, no.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Correct.
静止的时候没有。
With the stationary, no.
那种蜿蜒曲折的飞行路线，没有。
With the meandering kind of flight path, no.
但我也会看到它们基本上按照我们所说的跑道模式飞行。
But I would also see them essentially fly what we call a racetrack pattern.
基本上就是说，它们先直线飞行，然后朝某个方向做180度转弯，再直线飞行，然后再转弯。
And essentially what that means is they fly in a straight path and then they do like a 180 degree turn in a certain direction, then they fly a straight path, then turn again.
所以我们称之为跑道模式，而不是圆形等待模式。
So that's what we call a racetrack pattern as opposed to a circular holding pattern.
我们确实看到了跑道模式。
We did witness racetrack patterns.
事实上，我觉得就在过去几周，西海岸有一些案例，人们也观察到物体在高空带着灯光以跑道模式飞行。
In fact, I think there's been some cases off the West Coast just past couple of weeks where people have also been observing objects flying in racetrack patterns, high at altitude with lights.
所以我确实认得出那种行为，但我不一定认为那就意味着我们必须把它归为正常行为。
So I do recognize that behavior, but I don't necessarily think that means we have to attribute it to normal behavior necessarily.
那种飞行路线很重要，因为那是一种非常高效的飞行方式，对吧？
That type of flight path is important because it's a very efficient way to fly, right?
如果你需要在某个区域保持位置，你会想尽量减少转弯的次数。
If you have to maintain the position in a certain area, you wanna minimize how much you're turning.
因为飞机在转弯时消耗的能量比直线平飞时要多。
Because anytime you're turning in an aircraft, you're using more energy than if you were just flying straight and level.
所以采用跑道形航线，通过最大化直线飞行时间、最小化转弯时间，是一种高效的保持位置的方式。
And so by having a racetrack pattern, it's an efficient way of of holding in a position by maximizing straight level time and minimizing your turn time.
这些物体能在空中停留多久？
And how long would these things stay up there for?
根据我的经验，我们的经验，再说一次，我们并不是在研究它们，但它们总是在那里。
So from my experience, from our experience and, again, we weren't studying these, but they were always out there.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们起飞时它们总是在那里。
They were always out there when we took off.
我们看到它们，然后我们降落时，它们还在那里。
We'd see them, and then we go to land, they would still be out there.
比如，每天都有？
Like, every day?
每天都有。
Every day.
每天都有。
Every day.
每天都有。
Every day.
所以你们从完全不知道这些东西存在，到升级了雷达系统，然后每天都能看到它们。
So you guys go from not having any idea that these things are out there to an upgraded radar system to seeing them every day.
对。
Yep.
当时是什么想法？
What is the thought?
就是，你们看到这些东西的时候是什么感觉？就是说，你们对它们的看法和处理方式，是不是有一个演变的过程？
Like, what how are you feeling when these like, is there an evolution of the thought pattern of how you're addressing these things and thinking about them?
一开始，你会觉得它们是故障。
Initially, you're thinking they're errors.
你什么时候开始觉得，这到底是什么鬼东西？
When do you start getting a thought that, like, what what the fuck is this thing?
对。
Yeah.
那是在我们亲眼看到一次之后。
So that happened when we visually saw one.
我们第一次亲眼看到的时候，那个物体正好在我们所说的区域入口点。
And the first time we visually saw one, the object was directly at what we call the entry, point of the area.
你知道，我之前跟你说的那个天空中的盒子，从海岸线往外十英里开始，有一个特定的GPS位置和高度，进港的飞机从那里飞进来，出港的飞机也从同一个点飞出去，但高度会低一千英尺。
So, you know, that box that I told you about in the sky that starts 10 miles off the coast, there's a particular GPS, you know, location and altitude where incoming traffic will fly in, and outbound traffic will fly in the exact same spot but will fly out a thousand feet lower.
我们中队VFA-11有两架飞机，我们飞——不对，是他们飞，两架编队起飞。
There were two aircraft from my squadron VFA-eleven and we flew or excuse me, they flew, took off as a flight of two.
也就是说，他们基本上是像这样编队飞行的。
That means they're essentially flying in a formation like this.
当他们进入那个区域时，其中一个物体正好从两架飞机之间穿过。
And as they hit the area, one of these objects went right between the aircraft.
长机机组看到了那个物体。
The lead air crew saw the object.
二号机的机组没看到，这也不奇怪，因为通常他们得全神贯注地保持编队飞行。
The Dash two aircraft crew did not, which is not surprising because they're usually you're very focused on flying formation.
你眼睛就死盯着那架飞机。
You're just staring right at that aircraft.
长机其实有更多余力去观察周围。
The lead really has actual leeway to look around.
所以他看到了。
So he saw it.
他马上就回来了。
And he immediately came back.
我猜他雷达上没显示那个物体，不然他不会在入口点那里直接穿过那个东西。
I have to assume he didn't have it on his radar because he wouldn't have flown through this object at the working at the entrance point.
他飞了，掉头飞回来，降落了，我就在待命室里，他回来的时候我就在那儿。
He flew he turned around, flew back, landed, and I was in the ready room when he come back.
而且，你知道，他全副装备都穿着，这通常不是什么好事，因为你想尽快把那些东西脱掉。
And, you know, he had all his gear on, which typically is not a good thing because you want to get that stuff off as fast as possible.
所以通常意味着，你知道，出了什么问题。
So usually means, you know, there's a problem of some nature.
然后，你知道，他就坐在那儿说，嘿，你知道，我被那些该死的东西撞了一下。
And, you know, he was just sitting there saying, hey, you know, I was hit one of those damn things.
我们都明白他指的是什么，虽然我们不一定有名字，因为我们见得太多了。
And we all knew what he's referring to even though we didn't necessarily have a name for it just because we were seeing these so much.
然后他描述了那个东西。
And he described it.
你知道，他描述它就是一个黑色或深灰色的立方体，那个立方体在一个透明的球体里面。
You know, he described it just as a black or dark gray cube, and that cube was inside of a a clear translucent sphere.
基本上，那个立方体的顶点或者角，据他所能判断的，都贴着那个球体的内壁。
And essentially, the the apex or the corners of that cube, best he could tell, we're touching the inside of that sphere.
这个描述和很多人对这些东西的描述很像，不管你想怎么称呼它们。
And that description mirrors many of the descriptions that people have had of these whatever you wanna call them.
不管他们现在是不是出于某种奇怪的原因叫它们UAP。
Whether they're calling them UAPs now for some strange reason.
UFO，我也不太清楚。
UFOs I I don't know.
是不是这个词有点不好的含义？
Does it have a dirty connotation to it?
是不是因为太多疯子谈论UFO，所以这个词被玷污了？
And is it tainted because of so many crazy people talk about UFOs?
是不是因为这个？
Is that what it is?
确实，这个词本身就带着很多预设。
It does come with a lot of assumptions baked in.
确实，带着很多预设。
It did baked in.
对，是的。
That's yeah.
所以，不管它是什么，这种设计人们之前也报告过看到过，就是这种半透明的球体，里面有个立方体，你能看穿那个立方体吗？
So that's some but whatever it is, that is a design that people have reported seeing before, that this translucent sphere and this cube can you see through the cube?
据我所知，不能。
Not to my understanding.
不能。
No.
所以是某种实心的黑色立方体，在这个半透明的球体里面。
So it's some sort of solid black cube that's inside this translucent sphere.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它就在空中飘来飘去，飞来飞去。
And it's just floating around and flying around the sky.
所以，你知道，这确实是个好观点。
So, you know, that's that's a good point.
它是在漂浮吗？
Is it floating around?
它是在飞吗？
Is it flying around?
它两者都在做，这很奇怪。
It's doing both, which is strange.
对吧？
Right?
因为你听到那个描述，可能会想，好吧。
Because you could think of that description and be, okay.
那可能是个奇怪的气球，里面装着什么东西。
That's kinda some kinda weird balloon maybe with with stuff in it.
那当然是一种解释。
And that's that's certainly, you know, one way.
如果你只从那个角度看，它似乎是可以解释的。
If you just view that angle of it, then it it seems explainable.
但是当那个像气球一样的东西开始以0.8马赫的速度巡航时，那个特定的想法就不成立了。
But when that, you know, the balloon like object starts cruising down at, you know, point eight Mach, you know, that that nullifies that particular, idea.
而且你会经常看到这种情况，不只是那一张照片或那一种行为。
And you'll see you'll see that a lot where it's not just like that one picture or that one behavior.
真的，你得稍微退一步，把所有的东西放在一起看，然后说，好吧。
It's really you kinda have to zoom out a bit and look at everything in relation to each other and say, okay.
为什么这很奇怪？
Why is this weird?
你知道吗？
You know?
好吧。
Okay.
它当时在沿着一个环形跑道一样的轨迹移动。
It it was hanging out in a racetrack pattern.
那并不稀奇。
That's not exotic.
但当你得知它持续了大概十三个小时的时候，十三个小时。
But when you you learned it was doing it for, you know, perhaps thirteen hours Thirteen hours.
你知道，也许它们一直都在那里。
You know, perhaps they were out there all the time.
对吧？
You know?
所以，我落地后又回去了。
So, you know, I land and I go back.
而且我们当时并不是在执行分析这些的情报任务，对吧？
And we weren't on a a intel mission to analyze these, right?
我们是去进行训练的。
We're going to do our training.
飞这些玩意儿非常贵，每小时要三万块，对吧？
It's very expensive, 30 ks an hour to fly these things, right?
所以实际上，我们只有在来回转场或者等待战斗开始的时候，才有精力去关注这些东西。
So really the only time we can put energy into looking at these things when we're kind of transiting back and forth or waiting for a fight to start.
所以从来都不是那种专门的分析。
And so it's never like a dedicated analysis.
我遇到的一个问题是，人们一直不愿意深入研究和探讨这个话题。
One of the problems I've had is that people haven't wanted to look into and to study this topic.
人们总是问我，好吧，你在飞机上看到了什么？
And people ask me all the time, Okay, what were you seeing on the jet?
你在雷达上看到了什么？
What are you seeing in the radar?
我想告诉他们我们看到了很了不起的东西，但F-18并不是科学仪器，对吧？
I wanna be able to tell them that there was a great thing that we saw, but an F-eighteen is not a scientific tool, right?
我们只能获得有限的信息，因为所有传感器基本上都会过滤掉所有数据，以便我们能锁定目标并完成任务。
We only get presented a certain amount of information when all the sensors essentially filter all, all the data out so that we can prosecute the targets and do our job.
我们接收到的并不是那种模拟的、原始的信息。
It's not some type of like analog, you know, information we receive.
所以，比如说，如果雷达上显示某个物体在干扰，那并不代表那个物体真的在进行电子战来干扰我的飞机。
So, you know, just because say something is showing jamming on my radar from one of these objects doesn't mean the object is executing you know electronic warfare to jam my jet.
这其实意味着它们对我们的雷达信号做了些什么，当信号返回时，我们的战机把它当作电子战来处理。
It just means that you know it's doing something to our radar signal and when it comes back you know our jet is processing it like it's EW.
所以我们需要用真正的科学工具来分析这些物体，而不是像现在这样，很多分析都依赖那些本来就不是为它们设计的作战工具。
So we need to get proper scientific tool to do an analysis on these objects, instead of basing, you know, a lot of our analysis right now just on tools of war that aren't built for them.
对。
Right.
你们在F-18上能待多久？
How long can you guys stay up in an f 18?
如果是在进行空战格斗，大概一个小时。
If we're dogfighting, about an hour.
如果是以0.6到0.8马赫的速度巡航，就像我之前描述的那样，大概最多能待两到两个半小时。
If we're holding at point six to point eight Mach, you know, like, I described them as doing, somewhere maybe around, like, two, two and a half hours maximum.
你觉得这些东西在空中待的时间比这长得多？
And you think that these things are up there for far longer than that?
嗯。
Mhmm.
那这个东西有多大？
So how big was this thing
当时那个人看到它的时候？
when this guy saw it?
在空中很难判断大小。
So it's very difficult to tell in the air.
不过因为他们是以编队飞行的，我们基本上可以做出一些估算，后来我们讨论的时候就是这么做的。
But because they were flying in formation, we can make some estimated guesses essentially, and that's what we did when we talked about it afterwards.
对吧？
Right?
当时飞机之间大约相隔100英尺。
So the aircraft were about a 100 feet apart.
这个东西，他们估计基本上是从编队中间穿过去的，也就是说它差不多是从正中间飞过，但稍微偏向长机一点，这样算下来，如果飞机间距大约100英尺的话，它平均离两边不到50英尺。
This thing, you know, they estimate it essentially split the section, means it went more or less right down the middle, but slightly closer to lead, which would put it somewhere less than 50 feet, you know, on average if they're about a 100 feet.
你明白吧？
You know?
然后他就用那个大小作为参照，说，嘿。
And then he so he essentially used that that size reference to say, hey.
你知道，这东西的直径可能大概在五到十五英尺之间。
You know, this might have been somewhere in, the five to 15, you know, foot diameter.
这个猜测不太精确，但这是我们能想到的最好的了。
It's, you know, not a tight guess, but that's the best we could come up with.
那回到基地后，气氛是什么样的？
And what is it like like, what what's the atmosphere like when you go back to the base?
你们允许讨论这件事吗？
Are you allowed to discuss this?
这是可以公开谈论的事情吗？
Is this something that's openly talked about?
这件事会不会让你被人嘲笑？
Is this something that you get ridiculed for?
就像你想象的那样，任何一群哥们儿姐们儿听到这种事，都会像普通人一样反应，开开玩笑，然后基本上就回去工作了，因为那时候我们实在太忙了。
It's just, you know, like, you would expect any group of, you know, dude dudettes, you know, hearing about this to just kinda, you know, do the normal reaction like anyone else and the to kinda, you know, make the jokes and then kinda get back to work essentially because, you know, we're just so busy at this time.
对吧？
Right?
我们正在备战。
We're getting ready for war.
对我们很多人来说，这是职业生涯的巅峰，准备部署，你知道，在战斗机社区里，就像长刀出鞘一样。
Like, for a lot of us, this is the the apex of our career sense to get ready for deployment, you know, and it's kinda like the long blade gets cut in a sense in a fighter community like that.
这是一个非常基于信任的组织。
It's very much a trust based, organization.
所以你知道，没有人会去大做文章，把那些在我们眼里与日常运作完全无关的事情搞大，除非是安全风险。
So you know no one's out there looking to like make a big deal out of something that's completely irrelevant you know in our eyes to our day to day operations other than a safety risk.
真的，我们尽量去理解它。
It's really like as much as we could process it.
所以是的，确实有嘲笑，但我觉得不算过分，也不会造成情感伤害，但你知道，这明确表示这不是我们会投入认真思考和精力的事情，你明白吗？
So yeah there was ridicule but I don't think it was, I wouldn't say it was like over the top or emotionally damaging but you know it made it clear it wasn't something that like you know we're gonna like put serious thought and energy into You know?
就是，嘿。
It was, hey.
对。
Yeah.
离远点，然后，你知道的，下次空战的时候告诉我你表现怎么样，基本上就是这样。
Stay away and, you know, let me know how you did in the next fight, essentially.
那你们讨论这件事的时候，有多少其他人站出来说他们也遇到过类似的情况？
And when you discussed this, how many other people came forward with similar stories?
与其说是有人站出来，不如说大家其实都心知肚明，觉得，嗯，对。
It it was less about people coming forward because everyone was just like, well, yeah.
当然啦。
Of course.
我们都能看到他们在外面。
We see them out there.
到了那个时候，这几乎已经是个安全问题了。
Like, at this point when we it was almost a safety issue at this point.
让我先退一步说。
Let me back up.
一开始，你知道，当人们后来开着升级了雷达的喷气机飞过去亲眼看到之后，那个玩笑就慢慢消停了。
At first, you know, as soon as people you know, the joke subsided when people eventually flew in the jet with upgraded radar and saw it themselves.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你知道，后来大家都知道了这件事，它就纯粹变成了一个安全隐患。
So, you know, it dwindled down where everyone was aware of this and it was just a safety hazard.
但当我们差点在空中相撞的时候，情况就升级了，对吧？
But when we almost had the midair, that kind of upped the ante, right?
因为那时候我们有点生气了，因为你知道，最有可能的答案就是这是我们自己搞的某个机密项目，可能出于某种原因，它在一个不该出现的地方开始运行了。
Because we were kind of getting pissed at this point because, you know, the high probability answer was that this was some type of some type of classified program of our own making that had perhaps just started operating in an area they weren't supposed to for whatever reason.
我们当时就是这么猜的。
That was kind of our assumption.
所以我们因为那次差点相撞提交了一份安全报告，就是一份危险报告，基本上是发给整个舰队的通知，说这是一个可能导致飞机损失的危险。
So we submitted a safety report because of that near midair, a haz rep or hazard report, which is essentially a a notice that goes out to the whole, fleet that says, you know, this is a potential hazard that could cause a loss of an aircraft.
而且，你知道，那是因为我们差点撞上一个来历不明的未知物体。
And, you know, it was due to us almost hitting an unknown object of unknown origin.
这种情况持续了一段时间，关于那些近距离接触，也提交了好几份危险报告。
And that's how it continued for a while, and there was a number of hazard reps about that, about near misses.
后来，他们发布了一个叫做NOTAM的东西，也就是给飞行员的通告，这个通告会发布在联邦网站上，基本上就是列出一些信息，比如跑道灯坏了，或者某条跑道正在施工，或者某个区域因为某些原因关闭了。
Eventually, they put out what's called a NOTAM or notice to airmen, which is a published, published on a federal website, which essentially lists things like, hey, runway lights are down or they're working on this runway or this area is closed for something.
我们当地就有一条通告，说要注意在我们的作业区域活动的未知物体。
And we had one in our local area that said, caution for the unknown objects working in our our operating areas.
基本上，我们就是不知道它们是什么。
We just don't know what they are essentially.
所以，就解决而言，事情就停滞在那里了。
So that's just kinda where it stagnated at at that point as far as, you know, resolution.
那感觉一定非常奇怪。
That's gotta be a very bizarre feeling.
你开着喷气机飞来飞去，准备部署，却看到一些东西，就算不是无法解释，也至少是还没被解释的。
You're you're flying around in these jets preparing for deployment, and you see things that are, if not unexplainable, haven't been explained yet.
对。
Mhmm.
这完全不符合我们的认知框架。
It just didn't fit into our framework.
对吧？
Right?
即使我们试着在中队里讨论清楚，你也知道，就是那种感觉。
Even if we look at so, you know, when we really kinda were trying to hash it out in the squadron, it's you know?
所以，好吧。
So, okay.
这些到底是什么呢？
What could these be?
就算是那些机密的无人机事件，我也不打算考虑那之后发生的所有事情。
And even the classified, you know, drone thing and I I'm not even gonna consider all the things that have happened since then.
但即使在那个时候，无人机的事情对我们来说也说不通，原因有很多。
But even at this time, you know, the drone thing didn't make sense to us for a number of reasons.
其中一个就是，为什么？
One of those is, you know, why?
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对吧？
Right?
为什么会有可能几百甚至更多的小型无人机，性能比我们见过的任何东西都好，却在海岸边徘徊了好几年？
Why are you know, why do we have potentially hundreds or or more, you know, small drones that can perform better than anything we've seen just hanging out, you know, for years off the coast.
这些物体有没有可见的推进方式？
And is there a visible method of propulsion that's coming from these objects?
没有。
No.
那有没有热信号？
What about a heat signature?
没有。
No.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
所以没有，没有从尾部喷出的热流。
So there's no there's no plume of of heat coming out the back.
没有螺旋桨。
There's no propellers.
我们也没看到任何机翼表面。
There's no wing surfaces that we've seen.
那你看的时候，是通过某种红外设备来探测热量的吗？
And when you're looking at it, are you looking at it in through some sort of an infrared that will detect heat?
对。
Mhmm.
你什么都没看到？
You don't see anything?
通常是通过红外。
Usually through infrared.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，它会显示为白色或黑色的轮廓，黑色代表热量。
And so, you know, it'll it'll come back as either a white hut or a a dark hut, which means, you know, black color is represents heat.
热？
Hut?
热是什么意思？
What is hut?
其实就是说，如果我们看一个物体，比如在蓝天背景下，如果那个东西在发热，那它在白热模式下就会显示成白色。
Just the it's essentially, if we're looking at, like, an object against a a blue sky, you know, if that thing's producing heat, then it's gonna come out white in white hot.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果我看到一个白色的物体，那就是个发热的物体，而天空会……
So if I see a white object, it's gonna be a hot object, and the sky is gonna
等等，你用的那个“热”是什么词？
look What's that word hot you're using?
H O T。
H o t.
H O T？
H o t?
哦，热。
Oh, hot.
就是温度那个热。
Like the temperature.
就是热。
Like hot.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
有点新英格兰口音出来了。
Little New England accent coming out
我也是新英格兰来的。
of I'm from New England too.
我刚才还以为那是别的东西呢。
I just thought I thought it was something else.
我以为那是个专业术语。
I thought it was, like, a technical term.
对。
Yeah.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
你懂吧？
You know?
我这么说就是想表达，基本上温度要么完全一样，对吧？
And I say that just to say that, you know, it would just be, like, either all like completely one temperature essentially, right?
它不像飞机外壳那样能看见，更像是红外能量的发射，就像手电筒一样，对吧？
It wasn't like the skin of an aircraft you could see, it was just kind of like an emission of IR energy, like a flashlight, right?
有时候，大多数时候它都是冷的。
Sometimes, most of the time it would be cold.
它就像一个冰冷的物体。
It was like a cold object.
所以看起来它并没有真正在散发热量。
So it didn't appear to actually be emitting heat.
但有时候它们看起来又像是在散发热量的热物体。
I there were times when they did appear to be emitting as a hot object as well.
所以我们确实两种情况都见过。
So we did see both.
所以我也搞不清楚这到底是怎么回事。
So I don't know what to make of that.
当它表现出热量时，它们的移动方式有什么不同吗？
Was there a difference in the way they're moving when it was exhibiting heat?
据我所知，没有。
Not that I not that I know.
我不想直接说没有，但当时我们确实没有深入观察，所以没法下结论。
You know, I don't wanna say no, but we just didn't look at it deep enough to say that at the time.
但不管它在做什么，它都没有表现出任何你通常期望从喷气式飞机、无人机或其他有可见推进方式的东西上看到的特点。
But it whatever it was doing, it wasn't exhibiting any of the characteristics that you would normally expect from a jet or a drone or something that had some sort of a visible method of propulsion.
对。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
所以当这些事情每天都在发生，而且所有这些不同的飞行员每天都在经历这些时，这基本上就是从2014年左右开始，当新的雷达系统被引入的时候。
So when these things are happening every day and all these different pilots are experiencing them every day, This is essentially just from the moment of two thousand fourteen ish when this new radar system gets implemented.
所以之前你对外面有什么东西有一种认识，然后突然间，你有了这些新系统，然后你就像，哇。
So you had one sense of what was out there, and then all of a sudden, you have these new systems, and now you're like, woah.
这到处都是这些东西。
This is littered with these things.
对。
Yeah.
那是什么感觉？
What is that like?
那是什么感觉，对你个人来说，那感觉怎么样？
What is that like, what for you personally, what does that feel like?
你知道，就是让人安心。
You know, it's just comforting.
从某种意义上说，我们在飞行最基本的事情上花了很多时间和精力。
We spend a lot of time and energy on the most basic aspects of flight in a sense.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果你不能安全操作，对吧，不能回来降落、管理燃油、不突破高度限制等等。
Because if you can't just operate safely, right, you can't come back and land and manage your fuel and not bust through altitudes and all that.
你就没法做其他事情了。
You can't do all the other stuff.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们对这些细节非常讲究。
And so we're very particular on those type of details.
所以要是有人在那个领域操作，那真是个大疏忽。
So to have someone operating in that area would be a massive oversight.
所以，怎么说呢，从某种意义上讲，我们，至少是我，确实感到有点失望。
So it was, you know, in a sense, we kinda, at least I did, felt a bit let down.
对吧？
Right?
感觉就像是，你知道，应该愿意去正视这个问题并解决它。
It was like, you know, should be willing to look at this and deal with this problem.
你明白吗？
You know?
倒不是说它一直被嘲笑。
If it was gonna constantly it was not that it was constantly getting laughed at.
只是我们总是有更重要的事情要处理。
It's just it was we always had more bigger fish to fry essentially.
对吧？
Right?
这个我尊重，也理解，但这不代表我们就能完全无视它。
Which I respect and I understand, but, it doesn't mean we completely ignore that.
对吧？
Right?
而且我们不能只是，你知道，我觉得作为飞行员，我们在天上飞行的时候有责任去如实报告我们看到的东西，因为我们在前线，能看到天上发生的一切。
And we have to do more than just, you know, we have responsibility, I think, as aviators when we're up there to report really what we're seeing because we're on the front line of what we can see up there.
而且如果我们没有，你知道，指挥或行动上的支持去，你知道，如实说出我们在天上看到的情况，那么，你知道，事情就必须得改变。
And if, you know, we don't have, the the command or operational support to, you know, tell the truth about what we're seeing up there, then, you know, things have to change.
这些事物可能是什么，其后果有多严重，这对你来说压力有多大？
And the ramifications of what these things possibly could be, how much does that weigh on you?
因为如果这些东西来自另一个世界，或者来自海洋，或者来自另一个维度，或者，你知道，随便你怎么想，不管你认为它可能是什么，光是这一点就已经很诡异了，因为这不是公开讨论的事情。
Because if these things are from another world or from the ocean or from another dimension or what you know, fill in the blank, whatever you think it could be, that alone has gotta be very weird to experience because this is not something that's being openly discussed.
所以你就在那儿飞来飞去。
So you're just flying around out there.
你拿到新装备，然后突然之间，你就想，嘿。
You get this new equipment, and then all of sudden, you're like, hey.
外面有些东西是我们完全不了解的。
There's some stuff out here that we have no knowledge of.
对。
Mhmm.
而且它们的移动方式我们真的无法解释。
And it's moving in a way that we really can't explain.
那是什么感觉？
What is that like?
当时我们真的没有意识到。
We never really appreciated at the time.
真的吗？
Really?
真的吗？
Really?
因为你们太专注于任务了。
Because you're so mission focused.
非常专注于任务。
So mission focused.
当我们离开中队的时候，我们是在2015年出发去部署的。
And the point when we kind of left our squadron, we left for deployment in 2015.
所以那时候这件事还在发生。
And so this was still happening.
那是在他们开始向飞行员发布那个通知之前，就是那个提醒他们的通知。
It was it was prior to the point that they started putting that notice out to airmen, that note him out.
所以他们甚至还没到发布那个通用通知的阶段。
So they still not even got to the point to have that general notice out.
只是偶尔有人从个别中队发出一些危险报告，然后我们就出发去部署了。
It was just people sending out the occasional hazard reports and left from an individual squadron, and then we left for deployment.
哦，抱歉。
Well, excuse me.
我们先是去参加准备工作，应该这么说。
We left for, we left for workups first, I should say.
那我稍微往回说一点。
So let me let me backtrack a little bit.
在准备部署的时候，我们有一个出发的日期。
As we get ready for deployment, we have our our date where we leave.
但在那之前大约六个月，我们会去航空母舰上，到不同的训练指挥部或训练区域，基本上就是为了那次部署做准备，像实战一样练习。
But then about six months prior to that, we're gone to the aircraft carrier into different training command or training areas to essentially get ready for that deployment and practice like we play.
对，我们开始跟着航母走。
So, right, we start going with the boat.
我们住在航母上。
We live on the boat.
我们开始在航母上进行战术训练。
We start doing tactics off the boat.
然后我们出发去佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔海岸，参加一个活动，基本上就是做这些事。
And we left to go down to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida on a event where we essentially do exactly that.
我们飞到航空母舰上，执行一系列战术任务，模拟我们在作战区域。
We fly out on the aircraft carrier, and we do a number of tactical missions to simulate that we are in operational theater.
说实话，在很多情况下，这比真正的作战部署还要危险和困难。
And honestly, it's it's more dangerous and likely difficult in a lot of cases than the actual combat deployment.
你知道，我们是在为各种可能的情况做准备，空对空作战、救援任务，什么都有。
You know, we're deploying or we're preparing for every eventuality, air to air combat, you know, rescue missions, everything.
但当然，到了那边，并不是所有情况都会演练到。
But of course, you know, not everything gets exercised when you get out there.
所以实际上，这要危险得多，也紧张得多。
So it's actually it's much more dangerous and pretty intense.
这就是我们准备去做的事情，然后我们出发了，也完成了。
And so that's what we were getting ready to go do, then we left, and we did that.
当我们从弗吉尼亚海滩到那个区域时，我们发现那些物体也在那里。
And when we got down down in that area from Virginia Beach, you know, we noticed that these objects were down there as well.
我们不知道它们是跟着我们来的，还是本来就在那里。
We didn't know whether they, you know, came with us or whether they were already down there.
但你知道，一旦我们开始从航母上起飞，大概在弗吉尼亚海滩以南一千五百英里左右的地方，它们又出现了。
But, you know, once we started flying off the boat, you know, about, I don't know, 1,500 miles or so south of Virginia Beach, you know, there they were again.
而且那次又是在我们中队，就是现在大家知道的那个“万向节”视频，当时录那个视频的时候，我们正在杰克逊维尔那边进行战备训练。
And it was it was in my squadron again when the, the video that's known as the gimbal video now, that when that was recorded, we were on that workup cycle out in Jacksonville.
我们应该放一下那个万向节视频。
We should play the Gimbal video.
杰米，你能帮忙调出来吗？
Jamie, will you, please pull that up?
因为我想让你从你自己的专业角度，给我们讲讲你从技术层面怎么看这个视频。
Because I want you to kind of give us an understanding from your own expertise, like your technical understanding of what we're looking at.
好的。
Yeah.
所以这个就是……
So this is So
来了。
here it is.
这个。
This.
这是FLIR的录像吗？
Is this so this is this is FLIR footage?
对。
Yep.
所以我说FLIR，指的就是这个。
So this when I say FLIR, this is what I'm referring to.
看屏幕顶部中间，写着IR，就是红外。
And right in the middle of the top of screen, see IR infrared.
现在处于红外模式，我们看到的是热量。
So that's at infrared mode where we're seeing heat right now.
我们用的是黑热模式。
We are in black hot.
也就是说，颜色越深的物体温度越高。
So that means objects that are darker are hotter.
所以中间这个物体正在释放热量。
So this object right in the middle is putting heat out.
而且现在，它看起来在旋转。
And right now, it's it it appears to be rotating.
它刚才也是那样吗？
Is that what it was doing there?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我们确实看到这个物体在旋转，看起来像个云台。
So we do see this object row I mean, it looks like a gimbal.
我觉得这就是它名字的由来。
That's why it's called it, I think.
名字不是我起的。
I didn't name it.
但我们确实看到了。
But we do.
我们看到这个物体基本上是从水平位置开始旋转的。
We see the object essentially rotate from what looks like a horizontal position here.
它上面的那些线代表地平线，所以它基本上是平行的。
Those lines above it represent the horizon, so it's essentially parallel.
看，它动了。
There it goes.
很难看清这个东西的形状，但它看起来几乎像一个圆盘，上下都有像皇冠一样的东西。
And it's hard to make out the shape of this thing, but it seems almost like a disc with, like, a a a crown on the top and the bottom.
对。
Yeah.
有点像，看起来几乎像是有一些能量从两极那里散发出来，如果你愿意这么说的话。
Kinda like it looks like almost like a little little bit of energy coming out from the the poles there, if you will.
我就是这么描述的。
That's kinda how I describe it.
我看到有一点暗色的，你知道，热量从那里散发出来，或者我称之为能量。
I see, like, a little bit of the dark, you know, heat emanating from there or the the energy as I call it.
那从这个视频，用这套设备，有没有办法判断这个东西有多大？
And and is there any way from this video, from this equipment to detect how large this thing is?
有办法。
There is.
中间那个速度矢量可以设定成特定的大小，而这个大小对应着特定的长度。
So the velocity vector in the middle there can be set to a particular size, and that size correlates to a particular length.
所以在空战时，如果你在对方后面，他的翼展差不多就等于那个圆圈上两条线的长度，就是带线的那个圆圈。
So that in a dogfight, if you have, you know, you're behind the guy and you you essentially his wingspan is equal to the length of those two lines on that circle with the lines coming out.
看到了吗？
You see that?
那就是速度矢量。
That's the velocity vector.
这样你就知道他离你有多远了。
Then you know how far away he is.
对吧？
Right?
所以这有点像那种模拟的东西，在现代来说不是特别重要，但确实有。
And so the it's kinda like an analog thing that's not super relevant, like, in modern days, but, yes, there is.
不过我不知道这个视频里那个参数设的是多少，所以我现在没法帮你算出来。
I don't know, however, what that is set to in this one, so I can't, like, make that calculation for you right now.
我认识一些人，他们试图反驳这个，甚至反驳这个物体的旋转。
Now I know some people who've attempted to debunk this and debunk even the rotation of this object.
你怎么知道那个物体在旋转呢？
What how do you know that that object is rotating?
确定无疑地知道。
Definitively.
嗯，其实我们并不确定。
Well, so we don't.
对吧？
Right?
说到底，我们并不一定确切知道它在旋转。
We don't necessarily definitively know it's rotating at the end of the day.
对吧？
Right?
我们有证据表明它在旋转，但我也没有确凿的证据证明你是个有意识的人，坐在桌子对面跟我说话。
We have evidence that it is, but I don't have definitive evidence that you're a conscious human being on those side of the table with me either.
我明白你的意思。
I see what you're saying.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what mean?
就是说，我们就是没有那个信息。
Like, we just don't have that information.
所以你只有视频片段，而在视频里，它相对于云层的位置看起来确实旋转了。
So you only have video footage, and in the video footage, it appears right now in relation to where it sits on the clouds that it has rotated.
是的。
Yes.
所以，你知道，我们也可以看看，如果你和我都知道这件事已经做过了。
So, you know, we can also we can also see if you if you and I know it's been done.
有人已经做了模型，基本上就是看云层，然后画出可能的飞行路径。
People have created models out there that, you know, essentially look at the clouds and they they draw out a flight path that this could be at.
唯一的变量其实就是物体离我们有多远。
And the only variable is essentially how far away the object is.
那条飞行路径遵循一个方程，你建个小模型就能很容易看出来。
And that flight path obeys an equation that can be observed pretty readily when you build the little model.
基本上，如果物体在六英里左右，它朝一个方向移动，然后当它开始旋转时，就像飞机描述的那样，它爬升并反转方向。
And essentially, if you're at six miles or so, the object is proceeding a direction and then when it starts to rotate as as the aircraft described it climbs and reverses directions.
所以你可能看不出来，但当你真正建模时，你会发现在这些距离上，它确实做了所声称的动作。
So you can't quite make that out but when you when you when you actually model it out you can see that at these ranges it does what was claimed.
我们有点跳着讲，所以也许我应该先退回去。
And we're kind of skipping a little bit on the story so maybe I should back up.
所以你知道，当我们观察到这个物体时，机组人员基本上是在他们所谓的态势感知页面上看到的。
So you know when we observed, when this object was observed, the air crew essentially saw it on what they call a situational awareness page.
那是一个上帝视角，能看到所有传感器数据以及我们的飞机和其他飞机发出的所有信息。
And so that is a god's eye view of all the, sensor data and everything else that our jets and other jets, put out.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们可以放上光标，移动，选择东西。
And so we can put cursors on and move around, select stuff.
而机组人员在描述这段视频时，口头说的是，有一组物体，然后还有那个万向节物体。
And what the air crew described during this video verbally, is a formation of objects and then the gimbal object.
所以事情是这样的，你知道，在那个训练周期里，我们都在罗斯福号航母上执行了一次空对空训练任务。
So what happened was, you know, we had all gone out on an air to air training mission during this workup cycle off of the aircraft carrier, the Theodore Roosevelt.
而且，我们当时就在佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔海岸附近。
And, again, we're off the coast of Jacksonville, Florida.
你知道，大概有四、五、六架红色战机，那是我们自己人扮演的敌方，然后我们上去扮演蓝色战机，执行我们的战术。
And, you know, there's, like, four or five or six, you know, red fighters, which are, our own guys or gals acting as, the enemy, and then we go up and act as the the blue fighters and go do our tactics.
我是那次飞行的一员。
I was part of the flight.
我们都飞到了那里。
We all flew up there.
战斗中油快用完的时候，你就自己先返航。
When we kind of run out of gas during the fight, you kind of just return by yourself.
如果还有油，就继续打。
And if you still have gas, you continue the fight type of thing.
所以我们不总是一起飞回去。
So we don't always fly home together.
那次拍Gimbal视频的机组，他们结束任务后就开始往回飞了。
And in this case, the air crew from the Gimbal video, you know, they knocked it off and started flying back to the boat.
我们没油的时候，不是直接飞回航母的。
We don't go, like, directly back to the boat when we run out of gas.
听起来有点反直觉，但我们得等自己的降落时间。
It seems counterintuitive, but we have to wait for our landing time.
不能提前回来降落。
We can't just come back and land earlier.
所以只要在附近，我们在哪儿都无所谓，只要减速到我们说的最大续航速度就行。
So it doesn't really matter where we are as long as we're nearby and we just slow down to what we call our max endurance speed.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们就慢慢飞，在那儿晃悠，等到该降落的时候再回去。
So we just kind of cruise around, puddle along out there and just hang out until it's our time to land.
然后，他们在这过程中，在态势感知页面上发现了一组目标，还是来自雷达的，他们就说，嘿。
And so, you know, while they were doing this, they noticed that there was a group of contacts on their situational awareness page, again, from their radar, and they're like, hey.
你知道，这可能是某种渗透测试，因为他们会从海岸起飞一些老式战斗机或者速度比较快的飞行器，但未必是要跟我们空战，而是看我们能不能及时发现并拦截它们，这是整体训练的一部分。
You know, maybe this is like a penetration test because they'll launch aircraft from the coast, like old fighters or just things that can move relatively quick but not necessarily there to engage us in a dogfight to see if we can detect them and intercept them in time and things of that nature, part of the overall training.
所以当他们看到这些物体时，他们以为就是这种情况。
And so when they saw these objects, that's what they thought this was.
于是他们开始飞过去，大概飞了六到七、八英里远。
And so they started flying over to it, and they got, you know, they got about, you know, six to seven, eight miles away.
机组人员告诉我的是六到八英里。
Six to eight is what the air crew told me.
他们不想再靠近了，因为当时已经是晚上了。
They didn't wanna get any closer because it was nighttime at this point.
他们看不到那个物体，所以才只用红外模式。
They couldn't see the object, which is why they were only in the IR mode.
他们基本上就是先观察了一会儿，然后绕了一圈，最后因为该返航了，就飞回去了。
And they essentially, you know, they checked out for a bit and then circled a bit and then flew back essentially as it was time for their recovery.
但他们看到的是，你看到了视频里的那个万向节物体，但还有一群大概四到五个，我可能会说六个。
But what they saw was you saw the gimbal object that we saw in the film, but there was also a formation of like four to five I might say six.
我记不清具体数字了。
I don't remember the exact number.
大概四到六个物体，排成楔形编队飞行。
Somewhere in the four to six range objects that were flying in a wedge formation.
就像是一个没有底边的三角形。
So essentially like a triangle without a base.
那些物体基本上是沿着和万向节相同的路线前进。
And those objects were kind of proceeding along the same line as the gimbal.
据我回忆，万向节稍微在那个编队的后面，并且在其下方偏移一点。
From my recollection, the gimbal was slightly behind that formation and offset below it.
然后那个编队基本上就是转了个弯，我管它叫左转弯，转弯半径正常，稍微小一点。
And so that formation essentially kind of just turned in a, I'll call it, left hand turn in a normal radius of turn to slightly less.
但他们全都乱套了。
But they got all jumbled up.
他们开始转弯的时候，不是那种整齐的转弯，大家都保持在原来的位置上。
So they just started turning instead of, like, a a clean turn where they all kinda stay in the same spot.
那种转弯是很大范围的扫过去。
It's kind of a big sweeping thing.
但这次不是，这次转弯很紧凑，然后他们有点散架了。
Instead of that, it was a lot tighter, and they kinda kinda broke down.
看起来他们好像不再保持编队了。
They didn't look like they were in formation anymore in a sense.
你懂吧？
You know?
他们有点分散开了。
They were kinda scattered about.
在雷达上我根本分不清哪个是哪个。
I can't tell which one's which really out there on the radar looking at it.
所以我不知道他们是不是以同样的编队、完全相同的位置回来的。
So I don't know if they came back in the same formation, exact same position.
但当他们转了一百八十度，基本上就是掉了个头，他们又差不多回到了原来的编队，甚至可能一模一样，然后朝反方向飞。
But when they rolled out 180 degrees out, basically reversed their direction, they kind of got back into similar if not the same formation proceeding the opposite direction.
在这段时间里，那个云台物体，还是从左往右飞，跟在编队后面。编队转弯的时候，它基本上就是直线飞，然后就像撞到墙一样，突然掉头去追那个编队，等他们开始往反方向飞的时候。
And during this time, the gimbal object, again proceeding, call it left to right, trailing this formation, while it kind of executed its radius of turn, the gimbal just essentially was continuing in a straight line, and then as if it, like, pinged off a wall, just reversed direction to follow that formation, you know, once they had started flowing in the opposite direction.
所以它没有转弯。
So no turn.
在半空中停住，然后倒着飞回去了。
Stopped in midair and went backwards.
我甚至不觉得它停过。
I wouldn't even say stopped.
看起来就像它一直没停过。
It just seemed like it it just, like, never stopped.
它就直接弹了一下。
It just went ping.
你知道吗？
You know?
哇。
Wow.
你知道吗？
You know?
那就是我们从态势感知页面往下看时看到它的样子。
And that was that's how we saw her from the the situational awareness page from looking down.
对吧？
Right?
所以当你把它拉起来从侧面看时，那个弹跳动作看起来就像是一个U形转弯，一个垂直的U形转弯，然后朝相反方向飞去。
And so when you lift that up and look at it from the side, you know, what that ping motion looks like is a U-turn, a vertical U-turn to go in the opposite direction.
对吧？
Right?
所以它爬升来反转方向，在大约500英尺内朝相反方向流动，这是一个非常紧凑的转弯。
So it climbs to reverse its turn to flow in the opposite direction within about 500 feet, which is very tight turn.
我觉得一架F-18要做这样的转弯，大概需要6000英尺或4000英尺。
I think an f 18 needs, like, 6,000 feet or or 4,000 feet to do a turn like that.
哇。
Wow.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们现有的无人机没有能那样移动的？
So there's nothing that we have as a drone that's capable of moving like that?
所以，是的，再说一次，如果你只看一个特定案例，就像，好吧。
So, yeah, again, if you just look at one particular case, it's like, alright.
所以有东西垂直爬升，然后朝相反方向前进。
So something climbed vertically and proceeded in the opposite direction.
这倒不是什么特别惊人的事。
Like, that's not the sexiest thing in the world.
但咱们再回到当时的背景来看，好吧。
But then let's look back in context and say, okay.
我们离海岸350英里，在航母周围的保护空域里，空中只有战斗机。
We're, know, 350 miles off the coast in protected airspace around an aircraft carrier, you know, with only fighter jets in the air.
然后突然出现一小队小物体，就在那儿转悠，不知道转了多久，做的转弯是最不省油的。
And then all of a sudden, there's a formation of small objects just kinda cruising around, you know, for a period of time that's unknown, performing the least fuel efficient turns possible.
对吧？
Right?
就像，他们根本不在乎转弯省不省油。
Like, there's no concern for how fuel efficient that turn is.
那简直是最不经济的转弯方式了。
That's not that's like the least efficient way to do a turn.
所以，一个离海岸几百英里的物体，显然不在乎燃料，就在我们航母旁边晃悠，这怎么解释？
And so how is an object hundreds of miles off the coast, you know, with apparently no concern for fuel hanging out next to our carrier?
而且如果没有FLIR影像，你根本看不到这些东西，对吧？
And without the FLIR footage, you would have never been able to see these things?
没错。
Correct.
对。
Yeah.
你上报这件事的时候，反应是什么样的？
When you report this, what is what's the reaction?
就是，这个过程是怎么进行的？
Like, how do how does that go?
没有。
No.
因为那时候我们在训练，就像实战一样，为打仗做准备，每次飞行后都要做正式的情报汇报。
Because we are practicing like we play at this point, getting ready for war, we were doing, like, a formal intel debrief after our flights.
对吧？
Right?
就像是，嘿，我们拦截了那些家伙，还做了别的事。
It's kinda like, hey, we intercept these guys and did that another thing.
所以录下那段视频的机组人员就下楼去那个房间做汇报了。
And so the the air crew who recorded it were going down to that room to debrief it.
然后有人跟我说，嘿，你知道吗，你那个朋友这次在FLIR上拍到点有意思的东西。
And someone told me like, hey, you know, your friend there got something interesting on the on the FLIR this time.
你知道，也许你该去看看什么的。
You know, maybe you should go take a look or something.
因为我已经降落了。
So because I had already landed.
装备都脱了。
My gear's off.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以基本上就是在等着做汇报。
And so, waiting to debrief essentially.
然后我就说，对。
And so I'm like, yeah.
去看看吧。
Go check it out.
所以我就走过去了。
So I walked down there.
你知道，就在船的另一头。
You know, it's like the other side of the ship.
进了保密区域。
Go into classified space.
所有情报人员都在那儿，他们正在调视频、准备看FLIR的录像。
All the intel folk are in there, and they're queuing up the video, the tapes to watch, the FLIR footage.
还有件挺有意思的事。
And here's an interesting thing too.
对吧？
Right?
就是那个态势感知页面，我之前跟你说的那个显示雷达数据的屏幕，大概在胸口那么高的位置。
So the situational awareness page, that screen I told you about with radar data, that's kind of in a screen that's, you know, chest level.
然后这里有个屏幕，这里也有一个，两边都在视线高度。
And then there's screen here, screen here, eye level on either side.
如果我们录制的话，按照标准程序，我们把FLIR画面放在下面的态势感知页面上，然后上面会有雷达或者我们其他的系统。
And if you record we put the FLIR here as standard procedure in the situational awareness page down here and then we'll have a radar up here or any of our other systems.
如果你录制带FLIR画面的屏幕，态势感知页面也会自动被录下来。
If you record the screen with the FLIR, you record the SA page automatically.
它们是在同一盘带子上的。
It's part of the same tape.
有趣的是，我们在情报室里看的就是这个。
So what's interesting is that is that's what we watched when we were, in that intel space.
我能看到FLIR画面，我们刚才看的就是那个。
Know, I was able to see the FLIR footage, and that's what, you know, we just watched.
然后带有雷达数据的态势感知页面也显示了同样的内容，显示了舰队和那个移动。
And then the situational awareness page with the radar data, showed that as well, which, you know, showed the fleet and showed that movement I described.
你知道，如果那段FLIR画面存在，那么那个事件的雷达数据也一定存在。
Those are you know, if that FLIR footage exists, then the radar data for that event exists as well.
对吧？
Right?
因为它们是同一时间拍摄的。
Because it's filmed the same time.
所以如果有人想单独把云台视频拿出来，而不带雷达数据，那就得特意去拆分。
So someone would have to specifically split it off to get the gimbal video out without the radar data.
对吧？
Right?
所以云台视频是被泄露了。
So So the gimbal video was leaked.
是这样吗？
Is that what happened?
我不清楚具体是怎么操作的。
I don't know the exact mechanics.
据我理解，可以这么描述，但这是在合规渠道内进行的，所以并不构成违法行为。
My understanding it was that's the way it could be described, but it was done within channels that that doesn't make it, you know, an illegal activity.
但说实话，我真不清楚它是怎么被放出来的。
But I honestly don't the mechanics of how it was released.
所以不管怎样，它就传出去了，上了网，但态势感知页面和雷达数据没有。
So somehow or another, it gets out there and it gets online, but the situational awareness page and the radar data does not.
你只能看到FLIR的录像。
You only get the FLIR footage.
对。
Correct.
你觉得这是为什么？
Why do you think that is?
我觉得这背后有合理的理由。
I think there's good reasons for that.
你知道，我不觉得这有多神秘。
You know, I don't think it's overly mysterious.
你知道，我们的雷达传感器系统是我们在那里的主要传感器。
You know, our radar sensor systems are our primary sensor out there.
它们是我们使用武器的方式，这都没问题。
They're how we employ our weapons, and that's all fine.
我觉得不公开这些是完全合理的，比如
I think that's completely reasonable to not have that released, like
因为那是绝密信息，因为那会构成某种安全漏洞。
Because it's top secret, because it would be some sort of a a a breach of security.
对。
Yeah.
基本上，这会暴露我们雷达的性能有多好。
It would give away, like, how well our radar works, essentially.
对吧？
Right?
但话虽如此，还是有办法把这些信息解密，然后把原始数据公开，比如运动学数据。
But with that being said, you know, there's still ways you can take that information and declassify it and just put the raw data out there in sense like the kinematics.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，好吧。
Like, okay.
我们检测到的是这样移动的物体。
This we're detecting objects that move like this.
你明白吗？
You know?
没有具体位置。
There's no location.
没有那种具体的，你懂的。
There's no, like, specific you know?
有些细节已经被整理出来了。
There's specifics that have been kind of fleshed out.
有一些数学工具可以做到这一点，而且很精确、很确定。
There's, like, mathematical tools that can do that with, you know, precision and certainty.
所以是有办法解密这些数据的。
So there are ways to declassify that data.
我在美国航空航天学会做的其中一项工作，就是和我帮助组建的UAP兴趣社区一起，基本上是准备团队来做那种分析。
One of the efforts that I'm doing at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, with the UAP community of interest that I've helped put together is essentially preparing teams to do that, you know, analysis.
我们有一个由工程师、航空航天专家等组成的团队，他们加起来有超过三百年的NASA经验，至少是这样。他们正在努力编写可以每年更新的工程和科学UAP感知手册，这样我们以后学到的有用信息就不一定非得靠政府解密才能推进了。
We have a team of of engineers, aerospace and and others that have, you know, over three hundred years of NASA experience, you know, at least that are working to put together, you know, engineering and scientific UAP sensing manuals that can be updated yearly so that the information that we learn going forward in a productive manner isn't something that we need to necessarily get disclosed from the government in order to move forward on.
所以当你在看FLIR录像，看那个态势感知页面，看到这些物体的时候，你那时候已经有过接触这些物体的经验了？
So when you're watching the FLIR footage and you're looking at the situational awareness page and you're seeing these objects, you you've already had experiences with these things by then?
所以Gimbal是新的。
So the Gimbal was new.
对。
Yeah.
不过我们还没见过那个Gimbal。
We hadn't seen the gimbal yet, though.
所以这和你之前见过的其他物体不一样。
So this is different than the other objects that you've seen.
对。
Yeah.
所以那个时候的那个陀螺仪目标
So the gimbal object at this time
什么是陀螺仪？
What what is a gimbal,
顺便问一下。
by the way?
一个旋转的陀螺。
A spinning top.
我就是这么想的。
That's what I think of.
对吧？
Right?
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
对。
Yeah.
基本上，你知道，这会产生一种力，让它保持直立。
And essentially, you know, and that induces a force that wants to keep it upright, essentially.
对吧？
Right?
所以当它旋转的时候，你戳它一下，它会回到中心位置。
So as it's spinning, you poke it, it kinda goes back to to the center.
我，你知道，再说一次，我不知道这些名字是从哪来的。
I you know, again, I don't know where the names came from.
但是，好吧。
But Okay.
但是这种特殊形状的UAP，你之前没见过。
But this particular shape of UAP, you had not witnessed before.
你之前听说过类似的东西吗？
Had you heard of something like this before?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
而且我想说，其实不一定是那个形状——一方面，那个形状给了它名字，甚至也是我们分析的对象。
And let me let me say it was not necessarily the shape that well, one, gives it the name and even is what we were analyzing.
对吧？
Right?
因为我们在视频里看到的是红外能量，那可能是任何东西。
Because what we see in a video is IR energy, and that could be anything.
就是说，那里是不是有等离子场，但表面更小，或者那里有某种能量或热量，掩盖了物体的形状？
Is, you know, is there a plasma field there, but the surface is smaller, or is there some type of energy out there that or heat that is masking the shape of the object?
我们其实无法从那个图像真正知道物体的大小或物理形状。
We don't really know the size or the make the the physical shape of the object from that that image.
对。
Right.
你只是得到了那个信号。
You're just getting the signature.
对。
Mhmm.
那大家都在看的时候，当时有多少人在房间里？
So when everyone is observing this how how many people are in the room with you when this is going down?
是的。
Yeah.
有，对，挺好的。
There's, yeah, good.
大概15个人左右吧。
Maybe, like, 15 or so.
很多情报人员，还有几个飞行员，当然还有机组人员。
A lot of intel people, you know, a handful of aviators, and then, of course, the air crew.
大家反应怎么样？
What's the reaction?
大家就是互相看看。
Everyone just kinda looking around each other.
就是那种，你懂的，我的天哪。
Just kinda like, you know, holy shit.
就是说，没有那种，哦，这很平常，或者这是……
Like, you know, there was there was no, like, oh, that's prosaic or that's
对。
Right.
没有人下什么结论，但大家就是都不知道那是什么。
There was no there was no conclusions drawn, but everyone just kinda, like, had no idea what it was.
当时在房间里的人，他们也都用了升级后的设备，所以他们都意识到外面有情况？
And the people that were in there, had they also used this upgraded equipment so they were all aware that there was something going on out there?
就是说，这是一个大家都在讨论的事情？
Like, this is a this is a narrative that's being discussed?
所有飞行员。
All the aviators.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以
So
大家基本上都知道你在外面不是一个人。
everyone kinda knows that you're not alone out there.
这是个好问题。
It's a good question.
我甚至不知道这时候有多少情报人员知道这件事，但至少我们中队的情报人员知道，我还知道其他几个人，但说实话，我不确定有多少情报人员这时候已经知道了。
I don't even know how many of the intel folks knew at this point, but, I mean, at least our squadron intel, you know, guy did, and I know a handful of others, but I honestly don't know how many of the intel folks were aware at this point.
有没有讨论过，你能公开谈论多少？
Is there a discussion about, you know, how much of this can you talk about openly?
就像，大家都在想，这到底是怎么回事？
How like, is everyone going, Like, what what is it like?
对。
Yeah.
差不多就是这样。
Pretty much that.
对吧？
Right?
我其实一直在等有人能在这方面给点指导。
And kinda I was just waiting for someone to provide some, you know, leadership on this.
所以，这到底
So, like, what the
搞什么？
fuck?
如果外星飞船出现，能有什么领导力可用？
What leadership is available if an alien spacecraft shows up?
嗯，显然他们叫了上将。
Well, apparently, they called the admiral.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们就说，咱们看看上将怎么想。
So they're they're like, let's see what the admiral thinks.
然后我就慢慢地溜到阴影里，也没人赶我走。
And so I kinda, like, kinda slowly walked into the shadows and no one kicked me out.
你知道吗？
You know?
对。
Right.
因为你想知道。
Because you wanna know.
是的。
Yeah.
我至少想看看他的反应。
I wanna see what his reaction at least was.
你懂吧？
You know?
他几分钟后下来了，看了大概五六秒钟。
And he came down a couple minutes, and what he watched it for, like, five, six seconds.
然后他转过身，就直接走出去了。
And he just turned around and was like, just walked out.
哇。
Woah.
对。
Yeah.
所以我就想，他肯定以前见过这个。
So I was like, I think he's he's clearly seen this before.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我也是这么想的。
That's my thought.
我第一反应也是这个。
That would immediately be my thought.
如果他只是看了一眼就走，除非他早就麻木了，这家伙见过的
If he's just going, Like, unless he's so fucking jaded, the guy has seen
太多了。
so much shit.
天哪。
Holy shit.
也许他该
Maybe he need
退休了，兄弟。
to retire, buddy.
你见过太多事了。
You've seen too much shit.
但我想，如果他的反应是这样的话，那他以前肯定见过这种情况。
But I would imagine if if that's his reaction, that this is something that he's observed before.
所以几年后，我们再回来看看。
So fast forward a couple years, and we'll come back.
但你知道，那时候我已经和国会山上的各种人聊过，也和一些调查过这件事的人有过接触。
But, you know, I had, at this point, talked to, various people on the hill and had been involved with some people that had looked into this.
其中一个人跟我说，嘿，你知道吗。
And one of them mentioned to me, you know, hey.
你的直觉是对的。
Your your, your inclination was correct.
你知道吗？
You know?
他看完视频后，基本上就回来联系我们，报告说那些该死的东西还在他的领空里，他们正在寻找解决办法。
After he saw a video, he essentially came back and called us to report that these fucking objects were still, you know, in his airspace, and we're looking for some type of answer what to do about them.
哇。
Wow.
那有没有得出什么结论？
And was there any sort of conclusion?
就是说，之后有没有建立什么应对程序，遇到这些东西时该怎么做？
Like, is there is there any sort of protocol that you that would gets established afterwards to what to do when you encounter these things?
要回答这个问题，最糟糕的方式就是，我们走回休息室，然后大家当然都在讨论，说这到底是什么？
So to to answer that in the the the worst way possible, you know, we walk back to our ready room and, of course, then we're all, like, you know, talking about it and, like, what's this?
因为我们之前见过其他那些物体。
Because we hadn't we've seen the other objects.
据我们所能判断的，那个编队代表了我们平时在东海岸看到的那种物体，但那个陀螺仪是新的。
Like, from the best we could tell, the formation represented the objects we were used to seeing off the East Coast, but the Gimbal was new.
然后，你知道，我们开始构建各种理论，因为觉得，嗯，这个不一样。
And, you know, now we're building theories because it's like, well, this is different.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们开始变得有点更感兴趣了。
We're starting to get a little more interested.
你知道，基本上就是有人进来说了一句‘够了’，就这样。
You know, essentially, someone just came in and just said that was enough, essentially.
对吧？
You know?
然后你们就讨论了一下？
And talking about it?
对。
Yeah.
而且也不是说签什么保密协议之类的。
And it wasn't like it was, you know, here's here's an NDA or anything like that.
其实也没人真有权力下这种命令，就算想下也不行，但反正就是‘好吧’那种感觉。
It wasn't really even anyone in a position to order that if they wanted to, but it was was still it was just like, alright.
你知道，到那时候，这也就是又一件怪事而已。
You know, just another weird thing here at this point.
而且再说，我们当时压力特别大。
And, again, we're in a super stressful time.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
每天工作十八个小时，压力很大。
Eighteen hour days, you know, it's a stressful time.
但是，是的，你知道，我回头看，我觉得我得为那个决定辩护，因为好像，你难道不好奇吗？
But, yeah, you know, I look back and I I feel like I have to defend that decision because it's like, weren't you more curious?
你为什么没那么投入呢？
Why weren't you more into it?
你知道吗？
You know?
或者你为什么没想到去探索这部分呢？
Or why didn't you think to explore this part of it?
但是，是的，我们当时就是太忙了。
But, yeah, we were just busy.
我们当时太专注于手头的事情，只想尽力做到最好。
We were just so focused on what we were doing and trying to do it the best we could.
你们单独在一起的时候，比如吃饭或者只是喝杯啤酒，这些事会聊起来吗？
When you guys are alone, like, you're having dinner or you're just alone having a beer, does do these things come up in conversation?
会。
Yeah.
当然会。
Absolutely.
尤其是喝啤酒的时候。
Especially over a beer.
对。
Yeah.
这些物体是不是有更多不同的形状和类型？
Are there more different shapes and more different types of these objects?
在东海岸的观测中，我们和其他中队有类似能力的人聊过，他们描述的情况也一样，就是古巴球体。
The observations off the East Coast, we talked to other people in other squadrons with similar capabilities, and they were describing it the same way, the Cuban sphere.
颜色一样，你知道，什么都一样。
Same color, same, you know, everything.
那这是不是意味着只有东海岸才能看到这些东西？
And does that seem indicative of things that you only see on the East Coast?
据我所知，你知道，这又回到了那个问题，我希望有更好的地方来回答这些问题，但我没有答案的部分原因是我们长期以来一直拒绝正视这个问题。
So far as I know, you know, that again, there's no I wish there was a better place to answer these questions, but part of the reason I don't have answers is because we've just refused to look at this for so long.
对吧？
Right?
据我所知，从来就没有过数据收集。
There's just never been data collections so far as, you know, I know.
所以，你知道，如果我们二十年前就开始研究这些问题，也许我们现在就能回答了。
And so, you know, that would be these would be questions we could answer that we if we had started looking at this twenty years ago perhaps, that we could be answering now.
但是，你知道，我们必须收集大量数据。
But, you know, we have to collect a lot of data.
而且，你知道，有趣的是我们实际上有两种方法来做这件事。
And, you know, it's interesting because we have really two ways of doing that.
对吧？
Right?
一方面是利用世界上最先进的传感器之类的设备，通过美国
There's there's leveraging the world's best sensors and things of that nature through the U.
政府
S.
来实现。
Government.
当然，这些信息总是会被列为机密，而且处理起来总是很困难。
And, course, all that is always gonna be classified, and it's always gonna be difficult.
另一方面，其实还有真正的探索发现。
And then on the other hand, there's really discovery.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我们不必只等着政府告诉我们什么是对的、什么是错的，什么是真实的。
I mean, this we don't have to just wait for the government to tell us, you know, what's right and what's wrong, what's real on this topic.
对吧？
Right?
我们现在所处的时代，技术和工具的普及，以及进入太空的机会，都在推动这件事，所以我们能够自己去验证和推进这个话题，而不必完全依赖那些拥有世界上最先进传感器的人来告诉我们。
We we are in an age now where technology and democratization of tools essentially and access to space, you know, is is moving it so, you know, we can verify and move the topic forward without being hand fed perhaps from the people with the world's greatest sensors.
有道理。
That makes sense.
对。
Yeah.
确实有道理。
It does make sense.
你听别人讨论过多少种不同类型的这些物体？
How many different types of these objects have you heard other people discuss?
有一种是圆圈里面有个立方体的。
There's the there's circle that has this the cube inside of it.
还有那种万向节的东西，你其实不太清楚它的形状是什么。
There's this gimbal thing, which you don't really necessarily know what the shape is.
但是除了指挥官大卫·弗雷弗之外，有没有其他人亲眼目睹过，他说那东西看起来像一颗薄荷糖？
But have people witnessed eyewitness accounts other than commander David Fravor described something that he said looked like a Tic Tac.
对。
Mhmm.
我记得他说那东西大概有25英尺宽。
And I believe he said it was somewhere in the neighborhood of, like, 25 feet wide.
是不是就是那种
Is that what something
差不多。
Sounds right.
所以有三种。
So there's three.
对吧？
Right?
你不知道那个万向节物体的实际形状，然后还有那个里面有个立方体的圆形物体，再加上那个薄荷糖形状的。
You don't know what the gimbal the physical shape of it is, then you have the the the the circle with the cube inside of it, and then you have the Tic Tac.
还有更多吗？
Are there more?
可能吧。
Probably.
你知道，就是，就是
You know, it's it's
你跟见过其他形状的人聊过吗？
Have you talked to someone who's seen others?
在东海岸，你知道，我们通常看到的就是我跟你描述的那些，到处都是。
On the East Coast, you know, we were typically seeing whatever I described to you, all up and down.
甚至在华盛顿特区外的帕图森特河地区，你知道，人们在试飞员区域也看到了。
So even up in, like, the, Patuxent River area outside of DC, you know, people were seeing them up there at the test pilot area.
在西海岸，就像你说的，我多次听到过“Tic Tac”的描述。
On the West Coast, like you said, I've heard the Tic Tac, description, you know, multiple times.
一旦消息传开，我觉得，关于那个立方体，人们开始留意和关注，我就开始听说在其他地方也观测到了，比如西海岸，甚至更内陆的其他基地附近。
Once kind of the word got out, I think, about the cube a bit and people were looking and paying attention, I started to hear about those being observed in other areas such as the West Coast and further inland actually around other bases.
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