#1942 - 马克·格里尼

老兄，你已经写了很多书了。

You've written a lot of books, man.

而且，你知道，你写书的速度真的超级快。

And, you know, like, you're super prolific with these books.

这非常令人印象深刻。

It's very impressive.

你基本上每多久就能写出一本？

You're basically banging out one what is it?

大概每十到十一个月？

Every, like, ten or eleven months?

是的。

Yeah.

差不多一年两本，但还差一点。

Almost two a year, but not quite.

我的第一本书在09年出版，而新书《Burner》是我的第二十三本。

So my first book came out in o nine, and Burner, my new one, is my twenty third book.

所以12年写了23本书，差不多这样。

So 23 books in twelve years, something like that.

这太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

因为出版社邀请我写，而且我有这些机会。

It it it's it's because they've asked me to do it, and, you know, I have these opportunities.

我花了二十年才得以出版，所以我一直在...真的吗？

I it took me twenty years to get published, and so I've been Really?

我一直在努力追赶进度。

I've been trying to catch up.

直到42岁我才出版第一本书。

I didn't get published till I was 42 years old.

所以我拼命想，你知道的，算是弥补失去的时间吧。

And so I'm desperately trying to, like, you know, make up for lost time, I guess.

那在那些没出版作品的年月里，你都在写些什么呢？

So what were you writing in all those years when you weren't published?

你当时只是在尝试和坚持吗

Were you just trying and just

是啊

Yeah.

说实话，我当时很懒

I mean, honestly, I was lazy.

我从未相信这会有什么结果，但我喜欢写作，喜欢思考书籍之类的东西

I I never believed anything could happen from it, but I like to write, and I like to think about books and stuff.

所以我花了十五年时间写我的第一本小说

So I spent fifteen years writing my first novel.

我实际上是从1990年开始写，直到2005年才完成

I started it literally in 1990 and finished it in o five.

哇

Wow.

而且从未给任何人看过

And never showed it to anybody.

我是说，我有三个朋友可能读过它。

I mean, I have, you know, my three friends probably read it.

然后我把它搁置一旁，七个月内完成了第二本书，因为我觉得——我常说这世上任何事都会因我能做到而贬值。

And I put that aside and I wrote my second book in seven months because it's like, there's something about, I always say everything in this world is cheapened by my ability to do it.

就像我一直想学外语，虽然不算特别流利，但我会说些德语和西班牙语。

It's like, I always wanted to learn a foreign language and I'm not super fluent in any foreign languages but I speak some German and some Spanish.

一旦学会了，我就觉得‘哦，这也没什么了不起的，因为老子也能做到’，懂吗？

And it's like once I learned to do it, I'm like, oh, it's not that impressive because I can fricking do it, you know?

对。

Right.

写书也是同样的道理。

And writing a book was the same way.

十五年来它就像只沉重的信天翁，一直压在我身上，我根本不确定自己能否完成。

For fifteen years, it was this big albatross, you know, just hanging on me and I didn't know that I could ever do it.

但当我真正完成时，感觉就是——‘嗯，就这样’。

And once I finished it, was like, yeah.

我到底有多努力？

How hard did I really work?

那主要是在谈论写书这件事，而不是真正在写书。

That was mostly talking about, you know, writing a book and not actually writing books.

所以后来我出去写了一本书，格雷格·南实际上是我完成的第四部小说。

So then I went out and wrote a book, and Greg Nan was actually my fourth completed novel.

那是在我出版之前。

It was before I get published.

是的。

Yeah.

所以那些年，或者说十五年里，你只是没有完全投入写作？

So all those years or fifteen years, it was you just sort of not being fully committed to writing?

还是

Or

是的。

Yes.

简而言之就是这样。

That that's it in a nutshell.

第一本书花了十五年时间，之后我才有了些动力。

Fifteen years for that first book, and then I got some momentum.

比如，当我完成它时，我想，嘿。

Like, once I finished it and I thought, hey.

你知道吗，在我写那该死的东西时，互联网都发明出来了。

You know, it's the Internet was invented while I was writing the damn thing.

所以我，就像，去查了查，比如怎么出版作品？

So I I, like, looked up, like, how do you get published?

因为我之前压根没关注过这个。

Because I never even looked at that.

你知道吗？

You know?

对。

Right.

然后我发现书里写的一切都不对，比如篇幅太长了。

And then everything I'd done in the book was wrong as far as, like, it was too big.

角色也太多了。

There were too many characters.

你知道，这些都是他们不建议的做法。

You know, there were just things they'd recommend against.

所以我试着写了更主流一点的东西，并把它拿给了一位经纪人看。

So I, you know, I tried to write something a little bit more mainstream, and I got that in front of an agent.

但他说这还不够主流，不过我的文笔不错，应该继续尝试。

And he said it wasn't mainstream enough, but I was a good writer, so keep trying.

就这样我不断跌倒，但每次都是向前跌倒。

So it was this continually falling on my face, but falling forward.

懂吗？

You know?

然后...呃...确实是这样。

And and and there was yeah.

我一生中很少有顿悟的时刻。

I've had very few epiphanies in my life.

我不是那种喜欢自省的人，但某天我突然顿悟了——那时我已年近四十。

I'm not one of those navel gazing people, but but I had this epiphany one day that, like, okay, nothing I was in my late 30s.

我在工作上并不成功。

I was not successful in my job.

在格子间工作，注定余生都要如此。

Worked in a cubicle and I was destined to do that for the rest of my life.

我对停滞不前感到沮丧。

And I was frustrated about not going anywhere.

就在那时我突然意识到：我喜欢写作。

And there was just this point where I said, I like to write.

我喜欢走在街上构思些间谍题材的故事。

I like to, you know, walk down the street and think about, you know, some espionage theme or something.

我喜欢做研究，喜欢把东西打出来再修改完善。

And I like to do research, and I like to type stuff out and fix it up.

然后我就想，好吧。

And it's like, okay.

这不会有什么结果，但这件事的意义在于你在做自己喜欢的事。

Nothing's gonna come of this, but the thing that's gonna come of this is you're doing something you enjoy to do.

说实话，这让我释放了很多压力。

And, honestly, that just let a lot of steam out of the kettle.

突然间，我不再觉得自己是个39岁却一事无成的男人。

And and suddenly, I wasn't like, I'm a 39 year old man who's you know, has no success.

我就变成了这样一个人。

And I just became this guy.

就像，哦，你知道，我喜欢写书，我觉得每一本都在进步，也许有一天会有好事发生。

It's like, oh, you know, I like writing books, and I think each one's getting a little better, and maybe something will happen someday.

而且很快，我是说，你知道，短短几年内，我就出版了作品。

And and really quickly, I got I mean, you know, within a a couple years, I was I was published.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

那你当时是做什么工作的？

So what was your job?

我当时在一家公司叫Medtronic工作

I worked I worked for a company called Medtronic.

那是家医疗器械公司

It was a medical device company.

而且这并不是条死胡同般的工作，但我硬把它变成了，因为那确实不是我想要待的地方。

And I it wasn't a dead dead end job, but I was making it a dead end job just because it wasn't really where I wanted to be.

我曾想成为一名作家。

I wanted to be a writer.

那你当时在为他们做什么工作？

And What were you doing for them?

我在国际客户服务部工作。

I worked in international customer care.

所以我们有子公司。

So we had subsidiaries.

你知道的，这是一家医疗器械公司。

You know, it's a medical device company.

我们在其他国家设有子公司，我的工作大致是将物资配送到各子公司，参加贸易展览之类的活动。

We had subsidiaries in other countries, and I would sort of get the the supplies to the subsidiaries and go to trade shows and that sort of thing.

所以

So

那么当你离职时，你有没有说‘嘿，各位’？

And so when you left that job, did you say, hey, guys.

我可是出版过作品的作家。

I'm a published author.

我得走了。

Gotta go.

是啊。

Yeah.

这背后有个故事——2005年我父亲去世了，他生前从事的是一份白领工作。

So there's a story to that that it's it's My dad had passed away in 2005, and my dad, he had a kind of a white collar job.

他在我家乡孟菲斯经营NBC的附属电视台。

He ran the NBC affiliate in Memphis where I'm from.

但他的思维非常蓝领，认为人必须要有份工作。

But he was a very blue collar mindset, and you had to have a job.

尽管我的第一本书只是本平装大众市场读物，我父亲绝不会允许我辞职。

And there was no way my dad would have let me quit my job even though I you know, my first book was just a a paperback, mass market paperback.

那不是什么大出版社。

It wasn't a big relation.

是《灰人》那本书。

It was Gray Man.

虽然它后来取得了一些成就，但刚出版时除了好莱坞感兴趣外并不起眼。

It turned into something, but when it first came out, it was not a big deal other than the fact that Hollywood was interested.

你要知道，那点稿费根本不足以让我辞职。

But I had this you know, it it wasn't quit your job money at all.

后来他们又邀请我写了两本书，把它做成系列，这是我从未想过的。

And then they asked me to write two more books and make a series out of it, which I never even had considered.

我只是想亲手捧着一本印有我名字、标题和封面的书。

I was just trying to hold something in my hand with my name on it and a and a title and a cover.

我想成为那种级别的出版作家，你知道的。

I wanted to be, you know, that level of a published author.

我并没有更高的抱负。

I had no higher ambition.

他们让我继续写成一个系列，我答应了。

And they asked me to continue it as a series, and I said yes.

然后我才意识到，天哪。

And then I realized it's like, oh my god.

我必须在接下来的几个月里赶出三本书。

I I've gotta crank out three books in the next whatever number of months.

这就意味着，我必须辞职。

It's like, have to quit my job.

但就像我说的，那笔钱根本不够让你辞职。

And it wasn't quit your job money, as I said.

而这还是在好莱坞的资金到位之前。

And this was before the Hollywood money came in.

于是我去找了老板。

So I went to my boss.

我已经在那家公司工作了大约九年半。

I've been at the company for, like, nine and a half years.

我在某个周三向老板提交了辞职通知。

I went to my boss, and I put my notice in on a Wednesday.

结果下周一，他们就把所有人都召集到礼堂开会，现场有800人。

And the next Monday, they brought everybody in to the auditorium for a meeting, you know, 800 people there.

他们说，嘿，

And they're like, hey.

听着，

Listen.

比如销售额下滑啦，或者2009年以来的经济形势什么的。

Like, sales are down or the economy, you know, since 2009.

所以，你知道，经济状况不太好，诸如此类的。

So, you know, the economy is not doing well or whatever.

所以我们提供自愿离职方案。

So we're offering voluntary separation.

如果你现在辞职，我们会按你工作的每一年支付一个月的工资。

If you quit your job right now, we will give you a month's pay for every year you've worked here.

我们会为你提供一年的保险。

We will give you insurance for a year.

我们会做这个，这个，这个。

We will do this, this, this.

我四天前刚辞职。

I'd quit my job four days before.

所以你会想，天啊。

And so you think, like, oh my gosh.

我头顶上总有一片乌云。

There's this black cloud over me.

显然，我对辞职感到害怕。

And I was scared about quitting my job, obviously.

我记得之后老板立刻走进了我的隔间。

And I remember my boss came into my cubicle right afterwards.

她说，我要去和人力资源部谈谈，看他们是否允许你回来。

She's like, I'm gonna talk to HR and see if they will allow you to come in.

我当时想，他们怎么可能同意呢？

I'm like, why the hell would they do that?

我觉得我是人力资源部最近遇到的最好的事情。

I'm like, I'm the best thing that's happened to HR in a while.

你知道吗？

You know?

这个傻瓜在给你巨额离职补偿的前三天辞职了。

This this dummy quits three days before they offer you a ton of money to quit.

所以大约有半年时间，我都觉得头顶笼罩着乌云，觉得自己做了世界上最蠢的事。

So so for for about six months, I just felt like I had this cloud over my head, and I'd done the stupidest thing in the world.

然后《灰色人》的电影版权被买下了，虽然还不够让我辞职不干，但至少是够我吃一年的钱了。

And then the the film film rights got optioned for Gray Man, and it still wasn't quit your job money, but it was like, I can eat for a year money.

而且，你知道，没过几年我就开始和汤姆·克兰西合作，事情真的开始往好的方向发展了。

And, you know, within a couple of years, I was working with Tom Clancy, and things started to really go in the right direction.

哇。

Wow.

这故事太精彩了，老兄。

That's an amazing story, man.

我喜欢。

I love it.

本来可能走向完全不同的结局。

It could've gone either way.

但那些最精彩的故事不都是这样的吗？

But isn't that, like, always how it works with some of the best stories?

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

事情本可能有两种结局。

It could've gone either way.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

那个故事其实也有个悲伤的版本。

There's there's a sad version of that story too.

我很幸运没有经历那个版本。

I'm lucky that I I didn't have to experience it.

这就是当人们开始谈论显化现实、吸引力法则这类话题时，我的困扰所在。

That's my problem when people start talking about, like, manifesting your reality and the secret and stuff like that.

是啊。

Like, yeah.

你知道吗，和成功人士聊聊，他们会告诉你这样的故事：我早就知道这事会发生。

You know, talk to people that win, and they'll tell you that story that I knew it was gonna happen.

是我让它发生的。

I made it happen.

我有愿景板。

I had a vision board.

再去和那些尝试过却失败、无家可归的人聊聊。

Talk to people that tried and failed and are homeless.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们对这种显化现实的故事情节有不同版本。

And they have a different version of this manifesting reality story.

我这辈子跌倒过太多次，所以我很清楚现在有多幸运。

Fallen on my face in so many ways in my life that, like, I I recognize how lucky this is.

而且我不会随便抓个孩子就说，嘿，辞职吧。

And I would not, you know, grab some kid and go, like, quit your job.

去当个作家，伙计。

Be a writer, man.

因为这只是在我身上偶然奏效，并不意味着在任何情况下都适用。

It's gonna you know, it just because it worked for me in that one instance doesn't mean it would've, you know, work in any instance.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为你能给他人最好的激励就是自己的成功。

I think the best inspiration you could give to someone is just your own success.

没错。

Yeah.

如果直接告诉别人照搬你的做法，那几乎是不负责任的。

To if for you to tell people to do what you did, it's almost irresponsible.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得我学到的一切，都是通过几次犯错才明白的。

And and I feel like everything I've learned, I've learned by doing it wrong a few times.

懂吗？

You know?

所以，我不像尤达大师那样。

And so, like, when I I'm not I'm not like Yoda.

我不是那种隐居山中的智者，你明白吧。

I'm not this guy on a mountain, like, you know Right.

告诉他们就像，是啊。

Telling them is like, yeah.

不。

No.

我确实犯过很多错。

I've I've done a lot wrong.

而我告诉你的可能完全是错的。

And what I might tell you could be totally wrong.

但学习如何做事，本就是过程的一部分。

But learning how to do stuff, that's a part of the process.

你总会犯错。

You do stuff wrong.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，确实...

I mean, there's Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

不能因为害怕犯错就不敢做事。

Can't be scared to do things wrong.

对。

Right.

你只需要自我调整，是的。

You just self correct Yeah.

不断自我修正，希望在生命结束前能有所成就。

And keep self correcting, and hopefully, something good happens before you die.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是个复杂的过程，而且并不总是能成功。

It's a tricky process, and it doesn't always work out.

但问题在于你只听到那些成功者的声音。

But the problem is you're only hearing from the people where it does work out.

确实。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂吗？

You know?

而且有些人会看。

And and some people look.

关于天赋也有一个残酷的现实。

There there's a hard reality about talent too.

比如，有些人就是没有天赋，有些人就是写不好。

Like, some people just don't have talent, and some people just aren't good writers.

是啊。

Yeah.

有很多人会说，如果是你的梦想，就永远不要放弃。

There there's a a lot of people that go, like, you know, if it's your dream, never quit.

诸如此类的话。

Blah blah blah.

就像，嗯，我很想成为一名F1赛车手。

It's like, well, I'd love to be a Formula One driver.

但我永远不可能成为F1赛车手。

I would not ever be a Formula One driver.

你懂吗？

You know?

我觉得某种程度上你必须发挥自己的优势，当然也要努力进步，但这不仅仅是...你知道...盲目追随愿望。

It's like, I I think you sort of have to, like, play into your strengths and obviously work hard and get better, but it's it's not a it's not just, you know, follow your your, you know, your wish.

这是一种平衡。

It's a balance.

生活中每件事都需要平衡。

Like, everything in life is a balance.

是啊。

Yeah.

这不公平，而且非常棘手。

It's not fair, and it's it's very tricky.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且那种认为只要足够渴望就能实现的想法。

And the idea that all you have to do is also, like, want it bad enough.

你懂吗？

You know?

嗯。

Yeah.

我以前会根据自身问题给别人建议，比如职业生涯早期的时候。

And I used to sort of give advice to people based on my own problems, you know, like, earlier in my career.

所以当年轻人问‘我该怎么做’时，

So, like, a young person will be like, what do I need to do?

我就会说‘真希望当初更相信自己’，因为我以前做事总是半吊子——总觉得不会有什么结果。比如想写本书就东拼西凑随便写写。

And and I was like, I wish I believe in myself more because I was very half assed about everything because it's like I never thought anything would come from it, but I wanted to write a book, so I'd pick at it here and there.

所以我总对人说：要相信自己，一定要相信自己。

So I used to tell people, know, believe in yourself, believe in yourself.

然后你开始多了解这些人一些，就会发现，对，自信根本不是这个人的问题。

And then you start learning a little more about these people, and it's like, yeah, self confidence is not this person's problem.

是缺乏天赋。

It's lack of talent.

无论是写作、编辑还是类似的事情。

It's writing or it's editing or it's something like that.

他们表现得非常、非常自信。

It's like, they are very, very confident.

所以，你知道，帮助他人并没有一种放之四海皆准的方法。

So, you know, there's not one one size fits all for, like, helping people.

嗯，还有一种自信是基于对自己能力的了解而产生的。

Well, there's also confidence versus confidence that's based on an understanding of your competence.

是的。

Yeah.

还有你的职业道德以及随时间积累起来的自信

And and your work ethic and comp confidence that's built up over time

是的。

Yeah.

努力换来的自信与妄想型自信的区别。

With effort versus delusional confidence.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我的职业道德是慢慢培养起来的，但这是必要的，现在它已经很好。

And my work ethic came slowly, but by necessity, and, and it's good now.

而且，你知道，我是个多产的作家。

And, you know, I am pro a prolific writer.

成为

To be

像你写的那么多。

as much as you're writing.

对。

Right.

长时间

Long in

你家里的书。

your house books.

是的。

Yeah.

虽然我不做太多其他事情。

Although I don't do much else.

虽然我现在有了家庭。

Although I have a family now.

但确实，这一路上我学到了很多，让我变得更有纪律性，因为就像，好吧。

So but, yeah, it's there's there's so much that I've learned along the way that's made me a little bit more disciplined because it's like, okay.

如果我每天平均写不到1200字，到七月份就会落后很多，而书稿截止日期是8月1日。

If I don't average 1,200 words a day or something, I'm gonna be really far behind by July and the book's due August 1.

所以，你知道的，就像必须得拼命赶工。

So, you know, it's like, gotta go bust it out.

是啊。

Yeah.

你第一次把自己的书给别人读的时候，比如，他们读的都是像《灰人》这样的早期作品吗？

The first time you you gave someone one of your books to read, Like, were they were they all like The Gray Man, like, the early book?

对。

Yeah.

一直是同一种类型，只是同类型的不同变体。

Always the same genre, different variations of the same genre.

没错。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

那么这是否与你平时的阅读兴趣有关呢？

So did is this something that you've been interested in in terms of, like, the way you read?

比如？

Like?

是啊。

Yeah.

百分之百确定。

A 100%.

我是说，我只是个读者出身。

I mean, I was just a reader.

比如，我我没有军队背景。

Like, I I don't have military experience.

我不是杰克·卡尔或布拉德·泰勒那些有军方背景的作家。

I'm not Jack Carr or Brad Taylor or any of these other guys.

你知道，我在酒吧工作到31岁左右，还同时打其他零工，一直身兼数职。

You know, I I bartended till I was, like, 31, and I had other job you know, like, I always had a couple jobs.

我拿的是国际关系和政治学学位，但二十多年都没用上——除了在酒吧调酒时可能聊过这些话题。

I got my degree in international relations and political science, but didn't do anything with it till for twenty something years, you know, other than 10 bar with it, I guess.

哇。

Wow.

所以我确实阅读，但我读的都是间谍小说、军事题材的小说。

So I I read, but I read every espionage novel, military stuff, fiction.

实际上，我曾尝试加入空军，但没能成功。

Actually, tried to get in the air force at one point and didn't get in.

我对那个世界相当着迷，17岁时就开始读《经济学人》。

And I was sort of fascinated by that world, and I'd read The Economist when I was 17 years old.

我订阅了《经济学人》和《美国新闻与世界报道》，并且会

I had a subscription to The Economist and US News and World Report and would

真的吗？

Really?

阅读所有这些。

Would read all this.

我就是对那类事物感兴趣，外交政策之类的。

I was just interested in that, foreign policy and and and that sort of thing.

所以我非常热爱，喜欢构思那些狂野离奇的故事、大场面动作戏和地缘政治这类题材。

So I I loved it, and I and I loved thinking up, you know, kind of like wild crazy stories and big action set pieces and geopolitical this and that.

所以我人生中买的第一本书或惊悚小说是汤姆·克兰西的《爱国者游戏》。

So I Clancy, the first book I ever bought in my life was or thriller I've ever bought was Patriot Games, which was a Tom Clancy novel.

哦。

Oh.

那时我大概19岁。

I was, like, 19 years old.

那么现在轮到你写这类作品时，感觉有多不可思议？

And and then How wild is it for you to now be writing that?

二十五年后，我和他——你懂的——我就在他家里，坐在他办公室和他聊天。

A quarter century later, he and I were you know, I'm I'm in his house, you know, sitting there in his office talking to him.

明白吗？

Know?

是不是很疯狂？

Ain't that crazy?

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果我当初再努力一点，可能进展会更快些。

It probably could've happened faster if I if I worked a little bit.

我更拼命工作。

I worked harder.

但也许不会，因为我觉得你作品中的某些东西源自真实的生活经历。

But maybe it wouldn't because I think some of the what comes out in your writing is actual life experience.

百分之百是这样。

At a 100%.

你需要那些经历。

You need some of that.

百分百需要。

A 100%.

我一直这么告诉自己。

That's what I keep telling myself.

这样我就不会因为25岁还没出版作品而沮丧了。

So I don't get depressed about not getting published at 25.

嗯，你怎么会沮丧呢？

Well, how could you get depressed?

你现在非常成功。

You're very successful now.

你知道，人们有时候挺有趣的。

You can't you know, it's funny how people are.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Exactly.

我刚才在看，比如，你作品里存在的一些问题。

I was looking at, like, the things that are wrong with what you've done.

原本可能会怎样发展，但现在结果已经很好了。

What could've what could've been, but now now it's worked out really well.

这让我觉得很有趣，因为你看起来是个非常温和的人，却为这样一个精神病角色创作。

It's really interesting to me because you seem to be, like, a a very, like, mild mannered sort of a guy, and you write for for such a psychopath.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，你了解罗伯特·E·

It's like, do you know about Robert E.

霍华德吗？

Howard?

嗯哼。

Mm-mm.

罗伯特·E·

Robert E.

霍华德就是写《野蛮人柯南》系列的人。

Howard is the guy who wrote the Conan books.

哦，

Oh,

对。

yeah.

他是个相当安静的人，和母亲同住，三十出头就自杀了。

And he was, like, you know, kinda like a real quiet guy who lived with his mom and committed suicide in his early thirties.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

但他写出了最狂野的奇幻小说

But he wrote the most savage fantasy novels

是啊。

Yeah.

关于野蛮人柯南的故事。

About Conan the Barbarian.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你知道吗，他创作这些作品时，本人就是个安静、说话温和的人。

And he did, you know, all of them while he was this sort of quiet, soft spoken guy.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

And Yeah.

我是说，这两者之间并不一定存在关联，你懂的。

I mean, there's there's not necessarily a correlation, you know, between one or the other.

我认识一些三角洲特种部队的人，他们性格温和得不能再温和了。

I I know, you know, guys that were Delta Force, and they're as mild mannered as possible.

我是说，他们当然没参与过...我确定对吧。

I mean, they weren't in, I'm sure Right.

当他们身处战区时，但你永远无法预料。

When they were downrange, but you you just never know.

就作家而言，有些人写的军事题材作品相当准确。

And then as far as writers go, you know, there's there's guys that write pretty, you know, accurate, you know, military or stuff like that.

我认为我的角色在某种程度上不同之处在于，他是个极具同理心的人。

What's different about my character to some degree, I think, is, like, he's a very empathetic guy.

我不想把他塑造成那种方下巴的硬汉形象。

I don't wanna make him, like, this square jawed, know, like, total badass.

他确实有点神经质。

He definitely has a screw loose.

他的道德罗盘并不总指向正北方，但他最终想做正确的事。

He he doesn't his moral compass, you know, doesn't point true north or whatever, but he wants to do the right thing at the end of the day.

他富有同理心，在某些方面比其他角色更脆弱。

And he's empathetic, and he's vulnerable in some ways that that some of the other characters aren't.

我认为这正是多年来让这个系列受欢迎的原因。

And I think I think that's helped the series over the years.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我也这么认为。

I think so too.

我是说，他确实有个指南针。

I mean, there's he's got a compass.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且这个指南针有点问题。

And it's it's kind of a fucked up compass.

对。

Yeah.

不过确实。

But Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

在其中一本书里，我记得是《枪金属灰》。

In one of the books, I think it was Gunmetal Gray.

那是第六本书。

It was the sixth book.

我我记得快到结尾时，我当时想，我要让他做一件对他自己来说合理的事，但实际上读者们并不希望他那么做。

I I remember near the end, I was like, I'm gonna have him do something that makes sense to him, but it's actually the readers it's not what the readers are gonna want him to do.

这种情况以前从未出现过。

And and I that that had never come up before.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

就像，如果我在读这本书，我会想，别别犯傻。

This like, if if I'm reading this book, I'm going like, don't don't be an idiot.

别，你知道的，别那么做。

Don't, you know, don't do it that way.

别那样做，你知道的，这基本上决定了故事的结局——他打算如何处置这个他救下的人。

Don't do you know, it's basically the outcome of the story, what what he was gonna do with this this guy that he rescued.

但我觉得，这对他来说是合理的。

And I was like, but it makes sense to him.

那么我能接受让一群读者对我生气吗？

So am I okay with having a bunch of readers mad at me?

我想，有时候你必须跟随直觉，而我确实这么做了。

And I'm like, you kinda have to go with your gut, and I was.

然后我说，好吧。

And I I said, alright.

我要让他按照故事发展的逻辑行事，按照我在六本书中塑造的这个角色的性格行事。

I'm gonna have him do what what makes sense in the story for the this character the way that I built him up over six books.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且我确实几乎没有因此收到什么负面反馈。

And and I never really got much negative pushback from that at all.

所以我想，那应该是个正确的决定。

So I guess I guess that was the right decision.

不。

No.

我喜欢那个。

I like that one.

是啊。

Yeah.

阅读小说时最让我着迷的是，当你在阅读时，有人正在构建这个世界，而你信任他们创造的所有角色和这个世界——这种信任不容破坏。你知道，无论是阅读文学作品还是看电影，都需要一种对现实的暂时性怀疑。

It's it's just it's always interesting when you're reading is so fascinating to me, reading fiction, because someone is creating this world and you're trusting them with all these people in this world to to for it to not mess with your your it doesn't you you know, there's a suspension of disbelief that's involved in any, you know, reading literature or watching a movie or anything like that.

你只是不想破坏这种信任，让读者读到某个情节时忍不住抱怨：‘哦，得了吧。’

And you just don't want to mess with it with to the point where someone's reading it going, oh, come on.

没错。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

这就是你想避免的那种'拜托，别这样'的瞬间。

That's what you you don't want an oh, come on moment.

没错。

Yeah.

而你做得很好，在描述这个精英杀手那不可思议的世界时，完美避开了那些让人出戏的'拜托'时刻——尽管他总能在各种险境中毫发无伤。

And you do a great job of avoiding oh, come on moment while you're navigating this impossible world of this elite assassin who somehow another never gets killed.

嗯。

Yeah.

谢谢你这么说。

Thanks for saying that.

其实我很清楚这种处理手法的来源。

And I really know where that came from.

它源自一个非常具体的创作理念。

It came from a very specific place.

当时有位经纪人对我的作品感兴趣。

So I had an agent interested in me.

虽然他拒绝了我几本书的投稿，但他一直说，你知道的，你写得不错。

One he turned me down on a couple books, but he he kept saying, you know, you're good.

让我看看你写点别的。

Write me something else.

于是我写了《灰人》的开篇部分，那是个狙击手的故事，一架美国直升机被击落。

And I wrote the the opening for the gray man, and there's a it's a sniper thing, and an American helicopter gets shot down.

有个与美军行动毫无关系的人，正试图逃离他刚杀过人的交战区，他狙击了一枪，击毙了那些杀害美国士兵的人。

And this guy that has nothing to do with the operation with the American soldiers is just trying to get out of the kill zone where he's killed somebody, and he takes a sniper shot and kills some of the people that killed the Americans.

我把这本书的前50页交给了那位经纪人。

And so I I gave that agent the first 50 pages of the book.

那时我还是个未出版过作品的作家。

I'm still an unpublished author.

我问他，你能告诉我你的想法吗？

I'm like, will you tell me what you think?

他说，是的。

He's like, yeah.

很棒。

It's great.

从一英里外射杀那些家伙，真的很厉害，但他需要救个人。

The shooting those guys from a mile away, that's really badass, but he needs to save somebody.

我说，等等。

And I'm like, wait.

他怎么救人？

How's he gonna save somebody?

他在一英里外，就像基地组织，你知道的，2007年那会儿。

He's a mile away, and it's like Al Qaeda, you know, since 2007.

然后他说，我不知道。

And and he's like, I don't know.

我不是作家，但他需要救个人。

I'm not the writer, but he needs to save somebody.

于是我回到故事里，心想，靠。

So I went back into the story, I was like, well, shit.

这真的不太可能，你知道，太离谱了。

That doesn't really you know, that that's so impossible.

但后来我想，好吧。

But then I'm like, alright.

看来我的工作就是让这个设定变得可信。

I guess it's my job to sell that.

整个系列都受到这个早期想法的影响，因为我做的就是创造相当离奇的情节，然后拼命让读者买账。

And the whole series was informed by that early thing because what I do is I create pretty outlandish things and then work my ass off to to sell them to the reader.

懂吗？

You know?

加入现实世界的元素，地缘政治的东西，尽你所能解释各种前因后果。

And put in put in the real world stuff, the geopolitical stuff, put in all these you know, explain the hows and the whys to the best if you can.

到最后，反派打偏的子弹必须比正派多得多。

And then at some point, you know, the bad guys have to miss their shots a lot more than the good guys miss their shots.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，这确实有点异想天开。

So, you know, it it's it is it's fanciful.

有人称之为枪械情色片，但同时

Some people call it gun porn, but at the same time

枪械情色片？

Gun porn?

对。

Yeah.

他们就是这么

That's what they

他们就是这么

Is what they

他们这么叫的吗？

call it?

他们就是这么称呼它的。

That's what they call it.

但同时，你知道，故事是有灵魂的，我试图吸引读者，让他们不会觉得这完全偏离常理。

And but but at the same time, you know, there's there's, like, a heart to the story and all that that I'm trying to, like, pull the pull the reader in to where they don't go, this is just way too out out of out of left field.

你的写作过程是怎样的？

How what is your writing process like?

你是先有想法再坐下来写作吗？

Do, like, do you do you have ideas before you sit down and write them?

你会先记些小笔记，比如‘这个可能很有趣’或‘他可以这样做’，然后坐下来尝试把它们整合起来吗？

Do you have, like, little notes of maybe that would be fun or maybe he could do this and then sit down and try to piece them all together.

你是怎么做到的？

Like, how do you do it?

是的。

Yeah.

我基本上是即兴写作，但确实会先构思一些内容，哪怕只是三页纸的故事梗概。

Write sort of by the seat of my pants, but I do come up with some little if even if it's three pages of what the story is about.

你知道，这本书讲的是人工智能和机器人，反派角色想要毁灭美国之类的。

You know, this book is about artificial intelligence and robotics, and the bad guy, you know, wants to destroy America or whatever.

然后你再逐步充实这个框架，一点一点完善。

And then you flesh that out a little more and a little more.

到了某个阶段——这也是我常给作家的建议——直接坐下来开始写，自然就会明白你的故事要讲什么。

And then at some point, and this is what I always recommend to writers, is just sit down and start writing, and you'll figure what your story's about.

如果你完全没有蓝图规划，那很可能会陷入困境。

And if you if you don't have any blueprint, then I think you're gonna get yourself in trouble.

但我想说，每个人的创作方式都不同。

But I mean, everybody's different.

我认识一些作家，他们会把每个章节都详细规划好。

I I know some authors that they have every chapter completely plotted out and everything.

然后他们每天按部就班地写一章，因为前期已经花了好几个月来构思。

And then they just go and write a chapter a day because they've spent months plotting it out.

而我必须在故事中寻找故事。

And I I kinda have to find the story in the story.

所以我在写对话时，两个角色在交谈，我就想，这里缺乏紧张感。

So I'm writing in, you know, the dialogue, two characters talking to each other, and I'm like, well, there's no tension here.

我得制造些紧张气氛。

I have to create some tension.

然后你想出个理由让这两人之间产生矛盾，这又为故事的另一部分提供了素材。

And you come up some reason, there's tension between these two people, and then that informs another part of the story.

然后迟早有一天，你就完成了一本书。

And then sooner or later, you've got a book.

每本书...我并不是个特别自信的作家。

Every every book I'm not a super confident writer.

所以每本书在春季到初夏时，我都觉得它是世界上最糟糕的垃圾。

So every book, it's you know, spring, early summer is the biggest piece of crap in the world.

但不知怎么到了八月，我把它交稿，十月完成编辑，最终我对它很满意。

And then some somehow by August, I get it turned in and edited by October, and I'm happy with it.

我为此感到自豪。

I'm proud of it.

但我朋友阿里在他的笔记本电脑上贴了一张小纸条。

But My friend Ari has a little piece of paper on his laptop.

上面是欧内斯特·海明威的一句话。

It's a quote by Ernest Hemingway.

写着：所有初稿都是狗屎。

It says, every first draft is shit.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我...我觉得这话说得好。

I I I have said that's good.

我说过，要是我死在某本书98%完成的时候，那稿子就废了。

I've said it if I died when one of my books is, like, 98% done, it's unusable.

那样的话，他们就无法修改了。

Like, then they wouldn't be able to fix it.

我不确定这是否属实。

I don't if that's true or not.

但作为一个作家，你知道一本16万字的书里所有隐藏的问题在哪里。

But, like, you know, as a writer, you know where all the bodies are buried in a 160,000 word book.

就像，哦，这里说不通，那里的关联也不成立。

And it's like, oh, that doesn't make sense, and this connection here isn't there.

所以它会一直压在你心头，直到你尽最大努力把所有问题都清理干净。

And so, like, it kind of, like, weighs on you until you get everything cleaned up to the best best you can.

是啊。

Yeah.

斯蒂芬·金说过他其实没有写作大纲。

Stephen King said that he doesn't really have an outline.

是的。

Yeah.

他就是这么做的，我相信这一点。

He just I believe it.

坐下来就开始写。

Sits down and starts writing.

是啊。

Yeah.

他真的很了不起。

He he's amazing.

他简直是另一个物种。

He is just another species.

是啊。

Yeah.

我我真是对

I I'm so impressed with

那家伙印象深刻。

that guy.

嗯，肯定是在他职业生涯早期的时候。

Well, certainly in the early days of his career.

对吧？

Right?

对我来说，他职业生涯早期是最有趣的阶段。

The early days of his career, to me, it's the most interesting.

这并不是要贬低那些保持清醒自律的人。

And this is not to disparage people that are clean and sober.

也不是要贬低保持清醒自律这个理念。

It's not to disparage the idea of getting clean and sober.

你绝对应该那么做。

You definitely should do that.

你的健康比什么都重要。

Your health is more important than anything.

是啊。

Yeah.

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

那家伙状态糟糕的时候，反而写出了惊人的作品。

When that guy was fucked up, he was writing some amazing shit.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

他他他并没有开创一个流派，但基本上算是创造了一个流派。

And he he he didn't create a genre, but he created a genre, basically.

对。

Yeah.

你懂吗？

You know?

某种程度上确实如此。

It's like Kinda did.

他的产出是如此之多。

And he did the output was so much.

天啊。

Oh my god.

即使在他晚年，我不知道你是否读过《112263》。

Even in his later years, I don't know if you've ever read eleven twenty two sixty three.

没有。

No.

天啊。

Oh my god.

那是一本非凡的书。

It's it's a magnificent book.

真的吗？

It's a Really?

是啊。

Yeah.

这本书讲述的是一位高中老师穿越回过去阻止肯尼迪遇刺的故事。

It's about a a high school teacher who goes back in time to stop the Kennedy assassination.

哇。

Wow.

但你知道，随之而来的是混乱。

But, you know, chaos ensues.

这是斯蒂芬·金的小说，你可以想象得到。

It's a Stephen King novel, so you can imagine.

而且大概有七八百页厚。

And it's probably seven or 800 pages.

真的吗？

And Really?

它真的非常引人入胜。

It's it's really fascinating.

而且这是本新近出版的书。

And it's a recent book.

是的。

Yeah.

大概有八九年了。

It's been, like, eight or nine years.

他们实际上拍了一部电视剧，我记得是在Hulu上播出的，由詹姆斯·弗兰科主演。

They actually made a TV series, I think, on Hulu with James Franco,

那部

which was

实际上那部剧确实拍得很棒。

actually which was actually really good.

不过，那本书确实精彩绝伦。

But, yeah, that that book is is fabulous.

剧集也很不错。

The series is good too.

不。

No.

我是说，他早期的一些作品比如《闪灵》、《狂犬库乔》、《宠物坟场》之类的。

I mean, some of his early stuff like The Shining or Cujo or Pet Sematary or Yeah.

还有《燃烧的凝视》。

The Tommyknockers.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

天啊。

Like, my god.

对啊。

Yeah.

我记得去看《宠物坟场》首映时坐在前排，简直后悔死了这个决定。

I remember sitting getting light to the theater for Pet Sematary and sitting in the front row and just regretting that decision.

那片子真的太刺激了。

It was, like, so intense.