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乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
去看看吧。
Check it out.
乔·罗根体验。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我这一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根的播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
好的。
Alright.
我们结束了。
We're out.
你自拍一张吧。
You taking a self No.
我只是想确认一下，自己现在看起来没那么傻气。
I'm I'm just making sure that there's nothing completely retarded looking about myself right now.
你走进来的时候和现在能有什么不一样？
What could possibly be different than the way when you walked in here?
我也不知道啊，老兄。
I have no idea, dude.
我跟你说吧。
I'm I'll tell you what.
能这么轻松地走进来，再也不用紧张得想吐，真是太爽了。
It's so much fun walking in here and not be, like, ready to throw up out of nerves.
我第一次从这儿走出去的时候，真吓了一跳。
The first time I walked out of here and I went, holy shit.
我其实挺紧张的。
I was actually nervous.
我一般不紧张，但第一次来的时候是。
I don't get nervous, but the first time I was.
现在不紧张了。
Not nervous now, though.
对。
No.
挺好。
Good.
不对。
No.
不是。
No.
很高兴再见到你。
It's good to see you again.
见到你真好。
Good to see you.
每次看到他，我都庆幸他还活着。
Every time I see him, like, I'm glad he's still alive.
你住的地方真是让人难以置信。
It's like, where you live is so crazy.
我跟你说啊，老兄。
Let me tell you, man.
我不明白你为什么还坚持做这个，但我
I don't understand why you continue to do it, but I
估计你是真喜欢吧。
guess you love it.
我非做不可。
I have to do it.
现在我已经别无选择了。
Nothing else I can do at this point.
你觉得你还会在外面待多久？
How long do you think you're gonna stay out there for?
直到任务完成为止。
Until the mission's complete.
直到任务完成为止。
Until the mission's complete.
我的整个人生其实都围绕着一个目标。
I mean, we have my whole life has been based around one goal.
那就是保护这条河。
It's been protecting this river.
今年，我们接连遇到各种奇迹。
So and this year, we've just been experiencing miracles.
过去几个月发生的事，彻底改变了我的认知——我从来没想过这种事真的会发生。
What's happened in the last few months has been life changing on a level that that, like, I didn't understand these things could happen.
当莱克斯下来之后，所有这些事都发生了。我们原本以为，出去做这件事，根本不会遇到什么奇迹，但事实上，我们真的在一步步推进，为保护这条河、拯救亚马孙做出了实质性的进展。
When Lex came down and everything that happened, we didn't think you you go out and you don't think that that miraculous things are gonna happen, and there's been there's just been there's just we we've actually been making strides towards notching winds in protecting this river, saving the Amazon.
这太不可思议了。
It's wild.
那是因为你变得更出名了吗？
So is it because have you become more more high profile?
现在支持你的人更多了？
You've got more support?
到底是什么发生了变化？
Like, what what has been the change?
嗯，来这儿之后帮助特别大。
Well, I mean, coming on here helped a lot.
首先，我刚到机场，就有三个人认出我，问我：‘你是不是那个上过乔·罗根节目的 guy？’
I mean, first of all, just coming over here, like, three different people stopped me in the airport and were like, are you that guy from Joe Rogan?
我当时都愣了，问他们：‘你认真的？’
And was like, are you serious?
我那时候还在那边呢。
Like, I'm over there.
我真的不习惯这样。
Like, I'm not used to this.
我住在丛林里，说实话，我也没想到会这样。
I live in the jungle, I don't, you know, I don't know.
等我回到这里，人家就过来跟我说：哥们儿，我认识你。
And then I come back here, and then people are like, dude, I know you.
你就是那个丛林 guy。
You're the jungle guy.
我心想：天哪。
And I'm like, oh, shit.
这对我来讲还是新鲜事。
That's new for me.
不过最近真正发生的事是，你知道的？
But so, really, the the thing that happened recently was that you know?
一年半前我上了莱克斯的节目，他说：我要去亚马逊找你，这话人人都这么说。
So I went on Lex's show a year and a half ago, and he said, you know, I'm gonna come down to the Amazon, which everybody says.
你上了莱克斯的节目，但莱克斯其实是去了你的节目。
You went on Lex's show, but Lex actually went on your show.
这么说也行。
You can say that.
在亚马逊丛林里。
In the Amazon.
看到莱克斯穿着他那身标志性的西装。
And to see Lex with his suit, his customary suit on
穿着他的西装。
With his suit.
热不热？
Hot was it?
特别热。
It was hot.
如果你仔细看那段视频，就能看到他。
If you watch that carefully, you can see him.
是的。
Yeah.
他看起来满身是汗。
He looks glistening.
我当时挺好的。
I was doing fine.
我们俩都喷了驱虫剂，然后坐下来，就说：好吧。
But we, like, we both, like, covered ourselves in bug spray, and we're we just we sat down, and we said, okay.
我们就先试试看。
We're just gonna try it out.
要是不行，那也没办法。
And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
没关系。
It's fine.
不过，他跟我说要过来的时候，我就说：哦，行啊。
But, yeah, he came like, when he said he was coming down, I was like, yeah.
你和别人都一样。
You and everybody else.
人人都说他们会下来。
Everybody says they're gonna come down.
我真没料到他会真的来。
I didn't think he would actually do it.
然后
And then
飞行要多久？
How long is the flight?
没多久。
It's not long.
从纽约飞到利马只要八个小时。
To get to Lima from New York is eight hours.
所以从这儿过去，肯定更短。
So from here, it's even shorter, I'm sure.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
是的。
Yeah.
其实没那么糟。
It's really not bad.
他刚来第一天就待了两周，我当时就说：‘我得带你去看看亚马逊雨林的起点。’
And he came down for two weeks the first day that he was I was like, I wanna show you the start of the end of the of the Amazon Rainforest.
它起源于安第斯山脉。
It starts in the Andes Mountains.
所以我们现在正处于亚马逊雨林的西缘。
So we're in the western edge of the Amazon Rainforest.
那里有海拔一万七千英尺的冰川高峰。
And so you have these glacial peaks up at 17,000 feet.
我就对莱克斯说：‘咱们上一万七千英尺的高处去看看。’
So I was I was like, Lex, we I wanna take you up to 17,000 feet.
我想从源头一路走到河口。
I wanna go from source to river.
他第一天到的时候，我们开了五个小时车，到了山脚下，然后遇到了几位专家，他们带我们上了冰川，那儿高得让人喘不过气。
And so his first day, he arrived, and then we drove five hours, got to the base of this mountain, then we met up with these dudes that are experts, and they brought us up to the glacier where we can't breathe.
太震撼了。
Wow.
确实如此。
Yeah.
一路上开车，旁边就是悬崖，往下就是上千英尺的深谷。
It was it was you're driving on roads where where the the, you know, the the cliff goes down a thousand feet.
是啊。
Yeah.
这种路我才不走呢。
Fuck all that.
那种路我见过。
I've seen those roads.
对。
That.
我当时正开着车门，想跟Lex开玩笑，说‘我现在正跟Lex Freeman在一起呢’之类的。
And and I was I opened the car door to try and goof around with Lex to be like, oh, I'm with Lex Freeman right now and the thing.
我一转头，就看见车轮直接冲出了悬崖边缘，然后又滑了回来，那场面简直……
And I look over, and I see the wheel go over the fucking edge and skid back on, and it was like
这种事经常发生。
It happens all the time.
所以，对，我们出来了。
So, yeah, we got out.
我们，我们，我们走路。
We we we walked.
我们把车留在那儿，我当时就想，看。
We let the car I was like, look.
车开走了，然后我们做了什么呢？我们捡了块石头，我说，嘿，Lex。
The car drive, and then what we did was we took a rock, and I was like, yo, Lex.
我当时就想，要是车翻了，咱们就是这下场。
I was like, this would be us if if the car flipped.
我们往悬崖下扔了块石头，那大石头就这么转着圈往下掉。
And we threw a rock over the edge, and this big rock was just spinning like this.
我当时就说，天啊，咱们掉下去肯定得被碾成肉泥。
And I was like, man, we would be chop meat by the bottom.
对啊。
Yeah.
后来我们爬到了七万英尺的高度。
So we got up to 70,000 feet.
我们看到了那片冰川。
We saw the the glacier.
每次带人进丛林，你都不确定谁适应得了、谁受不了。
And whenever you bring somebody to the jungle, the thing is you don't know some people take to it, some people don't.
有些人一进丛林，皮肤就对蚊虫叮咬反应特别厉害。
Some people get to the jungle and, like, their skin doesn't react well to the bug bites.
他们被自己离一切那么远的事实压得喘不过气。
They're overwhelmed by the fact that they're far from everything.
莱克斯的眼睛一下子亮了起来。
Lex's eyes lit up.
我都没想过他还有这一面。
Like, I didn't know he had that setting.
他一走进丛林，就说：这地方我喜欢。
He walked into the jungle and was like, I like this.
他脸上露出了笑容。
He got this grin on his face.
他就那样
He was just
莱克斯是个隐藏的野性派。
Lex is a secret savage.
对。
Yeah.
你看看他的表情。
Look at his face.
他可不是在开玩笑。
He wasn't fucking around.
对。
Yeah.
他真能在那儿住下去。
He could live out there.
是的。
Yeah.
你注意到了吗？他去亚马逊的时候，长得就跟他在个人照片里那副模样一样，毛茸茸的。
And if you notice, he came to the Amazon and he looked like like the fur like like Lex in his profile picture.
等他离开亚马逊时，整个人完全变了个样。
And when he left the Amazon, he he he looked totally different.
这个转变过程，就是真正发生的事。
And and that process is is is what happened.
他说，你知道吧，他说如果我下去的话，他想做你们做的事。
We he said, you know, he says, if I'm coming down, he's like, wanna do what you guys do.
我想去进行一次深度的探险。
I wanna go on, like, a deep expedition.
所以我和JJ，还有我在当地一起工作的那个 guy，他是当地的萨满原住民，也是我之所以做现在这份工作的原因。
And so me and JJ, who's the guy I work with down there, the local indigenous SAA native who who is the reason that I do the work I do.
我支持他的工作。
I I support his work.
所以我们说，行吧。
And so we said, okay.
那接下来怎么办？
What are we gonna do?
咱们找个最狂野的地方。
Let's find the wildest place we can think of.
往上游走，去个更远的地方。
Let's let's go way up our river.
从镇上坐船过来，已经要两天才能深入丛林，沿着河走。
So we're already, like, two if you take a boat from town, it's two days deep into the jungle to get there by river.
我们就说，再往上走五个小时吧。
We said, let's go five more hours upriver.
把船停了，然后从这条河往另一条支流走，大概二十英里。
Leave the boat, and then we're gonna go from our river up to this other tributary, and it's like 20 miles.
二十英里？真的假的？
I'm like, twenty twenty miles.
是吧？
Right?
天哪。
Fuck.
是的。
Yes.
应该没问题。
It'd be fine.
我们背着背包，手里拿着砍刀。
We had our backpacks, machetes.
下了船，莱克斯立马就准备好了。
We get off the boat, and Lex is all good to go.
刚走出去五分钟，JJ砍了一根树枝，上面全是黄蜂。
The first five minutes we're out there, JJ machetes a branch that has wasps.
天哪。
Oh, god.
他整个头和脖子瞬间被黄蜂围住了。
His whole head and neck gets surrounded by wasps.
他身上被蜇了三十多下。
He gets 30 stings on him.
他撒腿就跑，我们一看，完了。
He runs, and so right away, we're like, oh, god.
这下可真够呛。
Here we go.
我们得拿根棍子把他帽子从黄蜂攻击的地方挑出来。
We had to use a stick to get his hat out from under where the wasps were attacking.
我们徒步走了一整天，关键是……
We hike all day, and here's the thing.
你以为这是热带雨林。
You think it's the rainforest.
到处都会是水。
There's gonna be water everywhere.
那儿没水。
There's no water.
你就想象一下，在桑拿房里待了整整八个小时，然后还不让补水。
So picture being in the sauna for eight hours straight, and then no re up on water.
我们把水都喝光了，以为能找到条小溪。
We drank all of our water thinking we're gonna find a stream.
结果根本没找到小溪。
We didn't find a stream.
那天晚上我们露营了，干露营，什么都没有，睡着了，又醒了。
We camped that night, like dry camp, nothing, fell asleep, woke up.
我们心想，得赶紧找水了。
We're like, we gotta find water.
这时候，莱克斯他
And at this point, Lex is
你们怎么找水啊？
How do you find water?
我的意思是，按理说应该有溪流才对。
Well, I mean, there should just be streams.
对吧？
Right?
这一段路本来
This this section Were
你们就没碰到过？
there that you just didn't run into?
或者说是
Or it's like
那一段森林特别奇怪，而这整个故事的关键就在于，那片森林跟我们待的地方不一样——我们那儿地势平坦，到处都是清澈的小溪。
It was a weird section of forest, and and this is integral to the whole story was that this part of the forest, unlike where we are, which is very, very flat and there's all these, like, little streams, they're clear.
那里头有水蟒，但水还是清澈的。
This came in an Anaconda in them, but they're clear.
雨林里的树根就像一个巨大的过滤系统，溪水可以直接喝。
And the jungle works like the roots work like a huge filtering system, so you can drink that water right out of the streams.
我们那儿地形起伏不断，上上下下，所以一整天都在出汗。
Where we were, it was up and down and up and down and up and down, and so that's why we're sweating all day.
我们当时没水。
We can't we didn't have water.
第二天我们就开始走了。
We start going the next day.
还是没水。
No water.
莱克斯看着我，说：兄弟，我们不能再这样下去了。
And Lex starts looking at me, and he's like, dude, we can't keep doing this.
我们一直在斜坡上打滑摔跤。
We're we're slipping and sliding down slopes.
往上爬的时候只能拼命抓着东西。
We're hiking up slopes and just grabbing onto things.
在亚马逊雨林里抓树，那些树上全是尖刺。
And when you grab onto trees in the Amazon, they have spikes on them.
你得提防脚下有毒蛇。
You're worried about stepping on venomous snakes.
还怕一不小心扭伤脚踝。
You're worried about twisting an ankle.
那路简直难走到了极点，堪称极限徒步。
It was brutal travel, like level 10 hiking.
JJ在我身后和我对上眼神，他眼神里就一个意思：这情况不对劲。
And JJ made contact made eye contact with me behind him, and he was just going, this is this is not good.
所以我觉得是第三天，我们当时在赶路，整个人都快不行了
And so I think it was day three where what where we're going and you're in such
一整天都没喝到一滴水？
go a whole day without water at all?
我们整整一天连一滴水都没喝到
We went with a whole day with no water whatsoever.
那温度是多少？
And what's the temperature?
37摄氏度
99 degrees.
天哪
Oh.
湿度也高得吓人
Full humidity.
我的天
Oh my god.
所以你那时候已经严重脱水了。
So you're like full dehydration.
对。
Yeah.
可能都有点神志不清了。
Probably a little delirious.
完全神志不清了。
Completely delirious.
身体根本没法正常运作。
So we're Body's not working well.
开始犯各种错误。
And you start making errors.
对吧？
Right?
因为太累了，走路都踩错地方。
You start taking bad steps because you're tired.
所以你就想，我直接踩上去好了。
So you go, I'll just step on this thing.
结果踩到一根往下延伸的树根。
And so you you step on a root that goes down.
脚下一滑。
You slide.
直接摔在地上。
You hit the ground.
还被藤蔓缠住了。
You get tangled up in vines.
我们当时带了充气筏。
We had we had pack rafts.
有个叫Pack Rafts的公司。
There's this company called pack of rafts.
我们的背包上插着桨，老是勾住藤蔓。
They we had paddles sticking out of our backpacks that kept getting stuck on vines.
不过呢，当我们穿过这片森林的时候，我们一直在感叹，天哪，这林子也太密了吧。
And what happened though was as we're going through this forest, we're going, God, this is so incredibly dense.
然后我看到一棵树，特别巨大，跟这房间似的。
And I see this tree, this huge tree, size of this room.
我就问JJ，JJ，那是什么树啊？
And I go, JJ, what tree is that?
他冲我笑了笑，那表情就像老师看学生一样。
And he smiles at me, teacher to student.
他就问，你知道那是什么吗？你晓得那玩意儿是啥不？
And he goes, you know why you know what don't know what that is?
他说，你肯定没见过成熟的桃花心木，因为那边的伐木工人早就把它们全砍光了。
He goes, you've never seen a mature mahogany tree because the loggers down there, they took them all out.
这片森林从来没被砍伐过。
This forest has never been cut.
亚马逊雨林在地质年代里形成了几百万年，一直都没被砍过。
Millions of years, the Amazon Rainforest forming geologically has never been cut.
所以我们一路穿行在这片森林里。
And so we're going through this forest.
我们看到了美洲豹的脚印，还有古老的红木树。
We see jaguar tracks, ancient mahogany trees.
还有铁木树也映入眼帘。
We're seeing ironwood trees.
从来没人来过这里。
No one's been there.
连未接触部落的痕迹都没有。
It's not even signs of uncontacted tribes.
这片森林，根本没人踏足过。
This is forest that no one's been through.
那时候，我记得我们停下来吃午饭。
And so right at the time, I remember we stopped for lunch lunch.
我们停下吃掉最后一点食物，当时我们遇到的问题是，我带着指南针，正往这些山丘的顶端爬。
We stopped to eat the last food we have, and we're the problem that we were doing was at I had a compass, and we were getting to the top of these hills.
你知道海底那些沙子形成的几何状波纹吗？
And you know when you look on the ocean floor and the the the sand makes, like, those geometric ripples?
对。
Mhmm.
而且上面是有规律的。
And there's, like, there's a pattern to it.
所以我们当时正爬到山脊顶端，心想，可不想再往下走，也不想再往上爬了。
And so we were coming to the top of a ridgeline, and we were like, we don't wanna go down again, and we don't wanna hike up again.
所以我们一直沿着山脊走，结果导致我们向西偏了大概30度。
So we're staying on the ridgelines, and what that was doing was taking us a 30 degree tick to the I think it was to the west.
但这让我们偏离了原定路线大约20英里。
But that what that was doing, though, was taking us about another 20 miles off course.
所以我们本来应该在这里到达河流，结果却跑到了那边。
So we we had to hit the river here, but we were gonna hit over there.
哦，天哪。
Oh, no.
所以我们得调整方向。
So we had to correct for course.
我们停了下来。
We stopped.
我们吃掉了最后一点食物。
We're eating the last of the food we have.
我们从水坑里喝水。
We drank water out of a puddle.
我拍了段视频，打算发布出来
I have a video, and we're gonna release
全部都发布。
all this.
你们有净水设备吗？
Do you have a filtration system?
我们什么都没带。
We went with nothing.
我们带了帐篷，还有砍刀。
We had our tent we had our tents and our machetes.
天哪。
Jesus Christ.
我有一段视频，是莱克斯在找
And I have a video video of Lex, and he's looking for
他的水坑。
his puddle.
带个
Bring a
SteriPen 之类的设备吧？
SteriPen or something?
因为我都是跟当地的人一起做事，他们就说，没事的，肯定有水。
Because I do everything with the local guys, and they were just like, oh, it'll be fine.
会有水的。
There'll be water.
我们根本没想到会发生这种事。
And we just we didn't anticipate this happening.
莱克斯蹲在那个水坑边，背着背包，盯着水看了好一会儿，然后抬头看我，说：‘我就要喝这个。’
And I I Lex was crouched by this by this puddle with his backpack on, and he's, like, looking at the water, and he looks at me, and he goes, I'm gonna drink it.
我跟他说：别喝这个。
And I said, do not drink that.
我求他了，别他妈喝这个。
I was like, please don't fucking drink that.
他却说：我就要喝。
And he he goes, I'm gonna drink it.
他说：现在地球上别的我都无所谓，就只想喝水。
He goes, I don't care about anything else on earth right now except for water.
我还是求他：别喝啊。
And I was like, please don't drink it.
贾尔迪亚可不是闹着玩的。
Jardia is no joke.
不行。
Nope.
我们停下来吃午饭。
We stopped for lunch.
他喝了吗？
We Did he drink it?
他没喝。
He did not drink it.
真的吗？
Wow.
没有。
No.
你知道，我们其实不想那样，因为要是病了，我们又没有卫星电话。
He you know, I mean, we we didn't want if because now we're going we get sick, we have no sat phone.
对。
Right.
跟外界完全断了联系。
No communication to the outside world.
离最近的河流都有至少三十英里，更别说有人帮忙了。
We're at least 30 miles from the nearest river, let alone help.
对。
Right.
那地方离这儿有一百英里远。
That's a 100 miles away.
深陷亚马逊丛林，那种原始荒野的气息。
Deep in the Amazon and the feeling of deep jungle, that feeling of wilderness.
我知道，就像你去猎驼鹿的时候，肯定也感受过那种置身荒野、与世隔绝的感觉。
I I know, like, you know, when you're, like, elk hunting, I'm sure you know this when you're out there and you get that feeling like this is this is out there.
是的。
Yeah.
而且冷漠无情。
And Uncaring.
冷漠无情。
Uncaring.
是的。
Yeah.
你开始感受到像大海一样，
You start like the ocean where
那种感觉几乎就是孤独。
it's like It's almost like lonely.
真的很孤独。
It's very lonely.
即使身边有人，那种感觉也会慢慢袭来。
Even when you're with people, it starts
压得人喘不过气。
to press on you.
我们渐渐都沉默了。
We started getting quiet.
我们根本没玩得开心。
Like, we weren't having, like, an awesome time.
我们感觉不对劲，就吃了一些坚果，可连口水都没得喝。
We were we were feeling it, so we ate, like, some nuts, and and we had nothing to wash it down with.
于是我们只好一直嚼着，然后站了起来。
So we're just chewing on it, and we got up.
走了几步，突然间，一切都变了。
And then we took a few steps, and all of a sudden, everything changed.
我们走到一条路上，是条伐木道。
We came out onto a road, and it's a logging road.
JJ的脸一下子垮了。
And JJ's face fell.
我心都碎了。
I was heartbroken.
Lex一脸茫然。
Lex Lex looked confused.
我们意识到，在这片古老的森林里，亚马逊雨林那种蔓延式的破坏是沿着道路推进的。
What we realized was in this ancient patch of forest, the progression of the metastasizing destruction that's moving through the Amazon Forest comes in roads.
这条路是有人刚开辟出来的，但他们没有砍伐那些古老的桃花心木，也没有砍铁木。
This road, somebody had just cut a road, and they hadn't cut the ancient mahogany trees, and they hadn't cut the ironwood trees.
野生动物还没受到惊扰，但既然有了路，他们迟早会来的。
And the and the wildlife was untouched, but there's a road, so they're coming.
我们就顺着这条路走了。
We used the road.
我们徒步走了出去。
We hiked we hiked out.
我们终于找到了水源。
We reached water.
找到水源那一刻简直太棒了，我们直接跳进河里。
And it is this is amazing when we reached water because we just plunged into this river.
我们一直在喝水。
We were drinking.
我们确实带了一些碘片。
We did have some iodine tablets.
我们把碘片放进了水瓶里。
We we put that in our water bottles.
想喝多少就喝多少。
We drank as much as we wanted to.
然后我们得划着筏子，整整一天才回到接我们的地方。
And then we had to raft for an entire day back to the place where we got picked up.
但后来我们发现，这条河上已经发生了变化。
But what happened was that now we know and this is on our river.
这里正是我们和丛林守护者想打造生态走廊的地方。
This is where we're trying to create this corridor with Junglekeepers.
现在我们知道，地球上一些最古老的森林即将被毁掉。
Now we know that some of the most ancient forest on Earth is about to be destroyed.
我们回到基地的研究站时，碰巧有个客户在那里，他住的就是那个树屋——阿尔塔庇护所树屋。
And we get back to our base, to our research station, and it just so happens that there was a client there, and he was staying in the that tree house, the Alta Sanctuary tree house.
我们把整个经历都告诉了他，当时一边喝酒一边吃东西，所有人都晒得脱皮、被蚊虫叮得浑身是包，又脱水，脸都干瘪得贴在骨头上了。
And we tell him this whole story, and we're drinking, and we're eating, and we're, you know, we're all sunburnt and bug bitten and dehydrated, and our cheeks are, you know, stuck to our skulls.
我们跟他讲完，都说这景象眼看就要被拆得一干二净，真是让人揪心。
And we tell him this whole story, and we go, it's gonna be brutal watching this, you know, dismantled.
他听完就说：我想帮你们。
And he goes, well, I wanna help.
他让我们去查清楚这块地到底怎么才能买下来。
He goes, find out how we get that land.
我之前根本没想过，我们居然能做点什么来改变这事。
And it hadn't really occurred to me that we could do anything about it.
这位朋友叫杰，他说：我先给你们垫个头。
And this dude, this guy's name is Jay, and he said he goes, I'll I'll I'll start you off.
他说：不管这块地要多少钱，我先给你们捐一千五百块。
He goes, whatever the land costs, I'll give you a $150.
去筹个款，把事情公开，争取有人配捐，再跟那些伐木工谈谈。
Do a fundraiser, put it public, and try and get matching donations and talk to the loggers.
所以我们筹款的时候，JJ——本地人——直接联系了拥有那块地的朋友。
So while we set up the fundraiser, JJ, local, called up his friends who happened to own that land.
那些朋友根本不想留着那块地。
His friends don't want the land.
他们把地承包给伐木工，砍树赚钱，打算干脆把地卖了。
They're contracting it to loggers to get the trees out to make some money so they could just sell it off.
我们把筹款信息发到了Instagram上。
We put it up on Instagram.
48小时内，我们筹到了15万美元。
We raised a $150,000 in forty eight hours.
我们跟伐木工谈了，买下了那块地。最让人没想到的是，后来我们带着Junglekeepers的所有负责人亲自去了那里，秘鲁的团队成员坐下来对伐木工说：
Talked to the loggers, bought the land, and then the craziest part is that when we were we went there, we physically with all the directors of Junglekeepers, we went to the land, and the Peruvians the the Peruvian directors sat down with the loggers, they're like, look.
现在这块地归我们了。
We own this land now.
这块地要用来做保护。
It's for conservation.
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我们要拯救这片森林。
We're gonna save this forest.
伐木工听了说，行，但我们可以继续在这里工作吗？
And the loggers went, that's fine, but can can we still work here?
我们愣住了：什么？
And we went, what?
他们说，我们干这行是因为真的喜欢。
And they said, we do this because we love it.
我们又问：什么？
And we went, what?
他们说，是的。
They said, yeah.
我们能当护林员吗？
Can we just be rangers?
我们看到你们有护林员。
Like, we see you have rangers.
我们能当护林员吗？
Could we be rangers?
我们当时就说，行啊。
And we were like, yeah.
你们完全可以当护林员。
You could be rangers.
对。
Yeah.
你们完全可以当护林员。
You could be rangers.
这些人在毁掉他们热爱的东西，只是因为别无选择。
These dudes are over here destroying the thing they love because they have no other opportunity.
没错。
Right.
所以现在我们有了一个全球性的网络，有这么多人在关心这件事。
So the fact that this is that that we now have this global network of people that care.
亚马逊雨林的当地居民正在努力保护这片雨林。
The local people in the Amazon Rainforest are trying to protect the Amazon.
现在，因为这类行动，因为我们一直做的这些工作，全世界都有了大量关注的人，有人每个月捐五块、十块，甚至一百块。
And now we have all these people all over the world because of stuff like this, because of all the work that we've been doing that people know that they just you know, we have people that give $5, $10, a $100 a month.
我们拥有庞大的捐助者网络，现在终于能取得实际成果了。
We have this huge network of donors, and now we're able to get those wins.
只要发现哪片森林有威胁，我们立刻行动，把它拿下。
We see a threat in patch of forest, boom, we grab it.
把伐木工聘为护林员，大家都赢了，森林也保住了。
Hire the loggers as rangers, everybody wins, and we're saving forest.
从去年我见你到现在，我们保护的面积从五万五千英亩增加到了近十万英亩。
This year, since the last time I saw you, we went from 55,000 acres to almost a 100,000 acres.
这相当于完成了保护三十万英亩目标的三分之一。
That's one third of the way to protecting the 300,000 acres that we have to protect.
所以，我们已经走完了目标的三分之一。
So we're one third of the way through the goal.
哇。
Wow.
这些全都是在过去一个半月里发生的。
That's all been happening in the last month and a half.
太惊人了。
That's incredible.
简直是奇迹。
Miracles.
所以你导航的时候不靠GPS，只用指南针？
So are you when you're navigating, you're not using GPS, you're just using a compass?
对。
Yeah.
为什么？
Why?
因为决心。
Commitment.
什么？
What?
你听我说。
Because look.
其实呢，
So I actually
你难道不希望用最好的工具来完成工作吗？
Wouldn't you want the best tools for the job?
我同意你的说法。
I agree with you.
确实，当我们去特别偏远的地方，那种地方绝对不能出错，那时候我们确实会带上像佳明这样的GPS设备，
And if you're in a really so when we go out to really remote places when you just cannot fuck around, yes, we do bring, like, a Garmin GPS and
我们出发前以为不会缺水，但要是真没水撑两天，那可就真出大事了。
we have a map in like you cannot fuck around if you guys are without water for two days.
我们本来只是打算进森林散个步而已。
We thought we were gonna go in the forest and go on a walk.
二十英里根本不算什么长途徒步。
20 miles isn't a 20 mile hike is nothing.
我们每天都走这么远。
We do that every day.
这片森林一直没被砍伐，是因为地形起伏太大，比其他森林都密得多，因为它可是上古就存在的老林子。
We did not the reason this forest hadn't been cut was because it was up and down and up and down and denser than all the other forests because it's fucking ancient.
我们发现它的时候，才真正体会到有多难走，那一刻我真的惊了。
And so we discovered it and how hard it was, and that's where I'm going, holy shit.
我们带莱克斯·弗里德曼来过这儿。
We brought Lex Friedman out here.
他肯定撑不住。
He's gonna die.
他肯定撑不住。
And he's gonna die.
脱水会要了他的命。
Of dehydration.
他
And he
一直盯着我看。
was looking at me.
一路上好多次他都这么看着我，明显就是心里在骂：你疯了吧，兄弟。
I mean, there were so many times during the trip where he looked at me, and you could just tell he was like, fuck you, dude.
就是纯粹在骂：你真是疯了。
Just just fuck you, man.
那你们怎么找水？
What how do you find water?
是随便走走就能碰上吗？
You just stumble upon it?
那是不是
Is that
从我们基地出发，往丛林里走五分钟，就有一条清澈的小溪，我就直接在溪边喝水。
I mean, from from our base, you walk five minutes back into the jungle, and there's a beautiful clear stream, and I I drink straight out of the stream.
没问题。
No problem.
要是有人刚来丛林，我可不会建议他直接这么干。
Now I wouldn't for someone that comes to the jungle, I wouldn't say just start doing that.
我建议第一天先喝一小口，看看肠胃能不能适应。
I say, like, take a sip the first day, see how your stomach goes.
我在这儿待了二十年，当然没问题。
I've been down there twenty years, so I'm fine.
当地人
The local
是你的肠道菌群适应了变化吗？
just your gut bacteria changes?
就是这个原因吗？
Is that what it is?
有些人一到意大利就生病，你知道吧？说白了，就是有些人太娇气了。
I mean, some people you take them, you know, you go to Italy and they get sick, you know, but like, you know, it's like people Fragile folk.
身体太弱的人。
Fragile folk.
对啊。
Yeah.
你知道的，防晒霜和驱虫剂。
You know, sunscreen and bug spray.
不过还真有人这么说，因为我发过一个视频，拍的是我用碗喝猴脑汤和咖啡。
But we somebody said that too because I I posted a video of me drinking, like, monkey head soup and coffee out of a bowl.
什么？
What?
猴脑汤？
Monkey head soup?
我们在所有人都闹起来之前，早就跟当地人一起吃过这东西了。
We went with the locals before everybody all the PETA people freak out.
我才不在乎呢。
I don't care.
大惊小怪。
Freak out.
和当地人住一块儿时，入乡随俗嘛。
When you live with the locals, when when in Rome
没错。
Right.
你知道吧，去别人家做客，要是当地人，人家是吃猴子的。
You know, if you go to someone's house and they're local, they eat monkeys.
我们当时在海滩上，有些本地人去猎猴子。
And so we were on a beach, and some of the local guys hunted monkeys.
第二天早上起来，他们就把猎来的肉热了当饭吃。
And so we woke up in the morning, and they heated up the food.
我们喝咖啡用的是碗，因为没带杯子。
And what we had was bowl coffee because we didn't bring cups.
我们当时坐在独木舟上。
And we're on a canoe.
对吧？
Right?
你干脆把牙刷对半切，省点重量。
You just bring you cut your toothbrush in half to save weight.
我就发了出去，还说呢，老有人问我怎么才能有我这份工作。
And so I posted it and I was like, here's because everybody messages me going, you know, how do I get your job?
我就想告诉你，这就是你根本不想干我这行的其中一个原因，别以为你真想干。
And I was like, here's one reason why you fucking don't want my job and think you do.
猴头汤。
Monkey head soup.
猴头汤。
Monkey head soup.
而且
And
猴头汤是什么味道？
What does monkey head soup taste like?
没错
Exactly
就是你想象的那样。
what you think.
说起来，其实也没你想象的那么糟。
It's it's at the same time, it's not as bad as you think.
不过，说的可是真猴子。
Monkey proverbial monkeys, though.
对吧？
Right?
他们可喜欢猴子了。
They love monkeys.
保护策略的一部分，就跟我们有鹿类狩猎配额、确保鹿群数量稳定一样。
Part of the conservation strategy is just like, you know, just just like we have deer tags to make sure that there's continually deer.
当地原住民社区呢，他们就是想继续吃猴子。
For local indigenous communities, they wanna keep eating monkeys.
他们很喜欢猴子。
They love monkeys.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们希望把猴子的数量控制在合理范围。
So they wanna keep the monkey population manageable.
这就是他们的想法吗？
Is that the idea?
而且他们还想吃猴子。
And they wanna eat them.
最终，确实如此。
Eventually, yes.
所以，如果外来者跑来告诉当地人‘你们不能吃猴子，因为我们认为不行’，这其实是一种殖民式的保护思维。
And so I would say it's kind of colonialist conservation to come in there and go, well, you can't eat monkeys because we think you can't.
但你自己去钓鱼、打鹿的时候，怎么就不觉得有问题了呢？
But then, like, you go trout fishing and deer hunting.
这完全说不通。
That doesn't make any sense.
没错。
Right.
但问题是，猴子跟我们太接近了。
But it's like monkeys are too closely related to us.
我注意到一件事，那些反对打猎的人，未必会反对钓鱼，也不见得会对吃鱼感到不安。
It's like the people that this one thing that I've noticed, people that get upset about hunting don't necessarily get upset about fishing or don't get upset about a piece of fish.
比如，你面前摆一盘三文鱼，是的。
Like, if you put a plate of salmon Yeah.
你知道，你会说，哦，今天中午就吃这个了。
You know, like, oh, this is my lunch today.
大家都觉得，哦，这很健康。
Everybody's like, oh, that's healthy.
三文鱼。
Salmon.
是的
Yeah.
但如果你放一张三文鱼的照片，人们就会有点不高兴。
But if you have a picture of a salmon, people get a little upset.
但如果你放一块牛排，人们就不会太在意。
But if you have, like, a a steak, people don't get too upset.
但如果你放一只死鹿的照片，人们就会非常不安。
But if you have, like, a dead deer, people get very upset.
别提了。
And forget yeah.
我的意思是，这真的很奇怪。
I mean, it's Very weird.
所以我有点想不通。
So I I Disconnected.
我觉得昨天，或者这周的某一天，我发了一个视频。
I think yesterday, sometime this week, I posted a video.
我们出去的时候，又和一些马奇肯加原住民在一起，钓到了一条黄鲶鱼。
We were out, and I was with, again, some Machigenga natives, and we caught a yellow catfish.
他们家女儿现在三岁半，当时我们在一个没有冰箱的地方。
And their daughter who's three, three and a half years old now you're out somewhere where there's no refrigeration.
回家还得坐两个小时的船。
You have a two hour boat ride back.
那你们怎么办？
What do you do?
就把鱼放在船底，加点水，让它活着。
You put the fish in the bottom of the boat with a little bit of water, and you let it stay alive.
对吧？
Right?
只要保证鳃能继续呼吸，等回到家再处理。
Just enough to keep its gills going until you get back.
因为要是刚钓上来就杀了，鱼肉很快就变质了。
Because if you kill it as soon as you catch it, it'll go back.
都烂了。
Rotting.
是啊。
Yeah.
这小姑娘闻到了鱼的味道，然后她就……对，特别开心。
And so this girl picked up the scent the the the fish, and she's yeah.
她还抱着那条鱼。
And she's hugging it.
你猜怎么着？那些素食主义者都炸了。
You the comments on this, the vegans went crazy.
有人说：‘我取关你了。’
People were like, I'm unfollowing you.
太恶心了。
That's disgusting.
这小姑娘可兴奋了，因为她马上就能吃上饭了。
This girl's excited because she's gonna eat.
她住在丛林里，只吃米饭和木薯。
She lives out in the jungle eating nothing but rice and yucca.
要是没吃到那条鱼，她就得营养不良了。
Like, if she didn't get that fish, she's gonna get malnutrition.
是的。
Yeah.
人们太习惯超市里的食物了。
Well, people are just so accustomed to supermarkets.
他们完全不明白食物到底是从哪儿来的。
They're just they're so delusional about where your food comes from.
这事儿挺有意思的，而素食者在这方面最离谱——如果他们真了解田地里是怎么种出大部分食物的，一定会吓坏的。
It's a it's a fascinating thing, and and vegans are probably the worst at it because they really if they really, on the ground level, understood monocrop agriculture, which is what supplies most of your food, they would be horrified.
他们会吓坏的，想到那些工业农药、除草剂，想到我们往土里倒了多少化学物，还有多少小动物在种植过程中被无辜害死。
They'd be horrified at industrial pesticides and herbicides and all all the shit that we put in the soil and how, you know, how many small animals get murdered in the process.
你得腾出地方给小鹿啊。
It's Well, you gotta clear space for a fawn.
对吧？
Right?
你不仅要清理土地，还得把土拨鼠、地松鼠，还有所有挡道的、会吃庄稼的动物都除掉。
You not only have to clear space, you have to kill groundhogs and ground squirrels and and anything that's in the way, anything that's gonna eat your crops.
在丛林里，情况就是这样。
Well, in the in the jungle, well, that's what they're doing.
亚马逊那些火灾，每年都在发生，都是人进去烧地，60%是为了养牛，剩下的那部分是为了种木瓜、玉米和可可。
They're all this burning, all this Amazon fires shit that goes on is every year is people coming in, and 60% of it is for beef, but the other percent of it is for papaya and corn and cacao.
我经常看到有人说，这是来自亚马逊的可持续可可。
I see a lot of stuff where they're like, oh, sustainable cacao from the Amazon.
我就想问，亚马逊的可可怎么可能是可持续的？
I'm like, how is it sustainable cacao from the Amazon?
你砍掉了一整个生态系统，那些树上可是住着成千上万种生物的。
You cut down an ecosystem and trees that have mill thousands of species living on them.
对吧？
Right.
根本不是。
It's not.
所以呢。
And so
哦，这叫可持续。
Oh, it's sustainable.
可持续这个词，就跟有机一样。
Sustainable is one of those words, like, organic.
大家总爱挂在嘴边。
People like to throw it around.
印在包装上。
It on the package.
这就像那种果皮之类的东西。
I mean, that's like that that a peel stuff.
他们管那个叫有机。
They call that organic.
你知道这个吗？
You know that?
你知道吧
You know
那是什么东西？
what that is?
不知道。
No.
这是一种涂层，用来涂在蔬果表面，防止它们变质。
It's this coating that they put on vegetables and fruit to keep it from going bad.
是蜡吗？
The wax?
其实是一种奇怪的物质，果皮的成分到底是什么？
Well, it's some weird sub what what's the ingredients of A peel?
其中一部分号称是‘有机’的，但他们从不告诉你具体有哪些成分。
So, like, part of it is quote, unquote organic, but they don't tell you what the actual ingredients are.
果皮涂层是一种植物性材料，涂在水果蔬菜表面，帮助它们保鲜更久。
A peel is a plant based coating that's applied to fruits and vegetables to help them stay fresh longer.
听起来挺正常的。
Seems normal.
对吧？
Right?
没错，它是植物来源的。
Like, yeah, it's plant based.
但里面到底有什么成分呢？
But what's in there?
有机苹果上常有这层东西，但你得用肥皂和水洗干净。
It's commonly found organic apples, but you're supposed to wash it off with soap and water.
我们之前在埃尔卡姆，用着Starlink上网，看到一篇讲这个的文章，说吃牛油果之前要注意这事。
Like, we were reading that if you have an avocado, what so we're in Elk Camp, and we're reading about this stuff because we had Starlink.
Starlink真的太棒了。
Starlink is fucking amazing.
我们就是这么做的。
That's how we do it.
老兄，这东西就跟雪茄盒差不多大。
Dude, it's this it's like the size of this cigar box.
我知道。
I know.
你把它往地上一放，就能在荒郊野外用上超快的网络。
And you put it down on the ground, and you get fucking high speed Internet in the middle of nowhere.
所以我们看到他们说，去掉牛油果上的涂层，得把它放进沸水里泡十秒，再冲干净。
So we're reading that they were saying that to take it off of avocados, you dunk the avocado in boiling water for ten seconds and then rinse it off.
什么？
Like, what
你在说什么啊？
are you talking about?
这东西到底是什么成分？
What's in this stuff?
而且也没人知道这个。
Also, nobody knows that.
我也不知道。
I don't know that.
没错。
Right.
所以我才上这儿来。
So I come up here.
我可就吃这玩意儿。
I'm eating that shit.
就是。
Exactly.
大多数人就直接吃苹果了。
Most people are just gonna eat the apple.
他们才不会用肥皂水洗呢。
They're not gonna wash it off with soap and water.
问题是，他们说这是植物基的、有机的。
The thing is, like, they're saying it's plant based and organic.
这种说法现在挺流行的。
Like, that's a that's a thing.
还有可持续，这些词。
Like, sustainable.
人们用这些词，让你觉得眼前这事好像也没那么糟。
These words that people use that make you feel okay about what's going on.
但说实话，我根本不知道里面到底有什么东西。
But, I mean, I don't even know what the fuck is
这玩意儿里头到底装了啥。
in there.
这个上面说要用刷子。
This one says use a brush.
刷子。
A brush.
用力擦干净。
Scrub it.
你看，他让你把苹果擦一擦。
See, he scrub your apples.
这是个抖音视频。
TikTok video.
你在说啥啊？
What the fuck are you talking about?
你为啥要在苹果上涂东西，还得我使劲擦？
Why are you putting something on the apple that I need to scrub?
只有完全削掉皮，才能彻底去掉它。
This is only you can only remove it 100% by peeling it off.
天哪。
Oh my god.
但我也不确定。
But I don't know.
一个苹果就这么点东西？
That's Of of an apple?
因为苹果嘛，你总得吃吧。
Because apple's like, you wanna eat this.
点开那个‘如何清洗、去除、削掉果蔬涂层’的教程。
Click on that how to wash, remove, peel coating, vegetable coating.
咱们看看能不能找段视频。
Let's see if we can watch a video.
视频会教我们怎么做。
It'll show us how to do it.
这东西哪儿都能沾上。
This could go anywhere.
我们来看看。
Let's see.
你选哪一个
Which one do you
想选哪一个？
wanna pick?
我们就选第一个吧。
Let's go with the first one.
那位女士正在削皮。
That lady, she's so she's peeling it.
削皮呢。
Peeling it.
对。
Yeah.
为什么要削水果蔬菜的皮？
Why do you peel produce?
但不是很多营养都在皮里吗？
But isn't a lot of the nutrients in the skin?
打蜡又削皮。
Wax and peel.
不过这个就不一样了。
So this is different, though.
这个是上蜡的。
This is wax.
对。
Yeah.
这个是巴西棕榈蜡。
This is, that's carnuba wax.
跟普通的差不多。
It's like normal.
但去皮是新产品，就那种吧。
But a peel is a new product, and it's one of those yeah.
好的。
Okay.
咱们看看这位女士想说些什么。
Let's see what this lady has to talk.
我们来聊聊这种去皮处理吧。
Let's talk about a peel.
我不太喜欢她的耳环，不过还是听听她说什么。
I don't like her earrings, but let's listen to her.
减少塑料的使用。
And reduce the use of plastic.
这种成分用植物原料制成单甘酯和二甘酯，也就是在水果蔬菜表面形成一层脂肪涂层。
This compound uses plant material to make monoglycerides and diglycerides, aka fats, a fat coating on fruits and vegetables.
目的是减少塑料，效果惊人，还能延长保质期，太棒了。
The intent, less plastic, amazing, longer shelf life, Fabulous.
在什么方面？
At plus
人的代价。
human cost.
什么？
At what?
人的代价。
Human cost.
这些脂肪是通过乙酸乙酯和庚烷从植物中提取的。
These fats are extracted from plants using ethyl acetate and heptane.
哦。
Oh.
在生产这些脂肪的化学过程中，他们会添加含有重金属的成分。
In the chemical process to make these fats, they add ingredients that contain heavy metals.
哦，真不错。
Oh, great.
并非所有来自植物的脂肪都适合人类食用。
Not all fats that come from plants are safe for human consumption.
一般来说，橄榄油来自植物，而且很健康。
Generally speaking, olive oil comes from plants and it's healthy.
菜籽油、亚麻籽油、棉籽油都是来自植物的脂肪，但并不健康。
Canola oil, wrap seed oil, cotton seed oil are fats that come from plants but not healthy.
它们会引发大量炎症。
They cause a lot of inflammation.
这完全取决于脂肪是如何提取的，以及化学成分是如何合成的。
It all depends on how the fats were extracted and how the chemical compound was created.
目前还没有针对长期食用带皮水果蔬菜的人群开展人体试验来观察其影响。
At this time, there's no human trials to show what happens to humans who consume fruits and vegetables with a peel on them on a regular basis.
哦，真不错。
Oh, great.
继续说。
Keep going.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
为什么还要对人们日常吃的东西做人体试验呢？
Why would there be human trials on something that people eat?
而且超市里到处都是。
And it's all over supermarkets.
但现在有很多关于食品安全的新消息。
But there's a lot of stuff coming out right now about the safety of our food.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
我老是听到这方面的说法。
I keep hearing about this.
这类消息不断冒出来。
It keeps coming showing up.
对。
Yeah.
参议院之前开过一场听证会，昨天来的那个布里格姆·巴勒，他在会上跟一群议员谈了这事，解释了整个系统有多糟糕，大部分欧洲国家和加拿大都早就不是这样了。
Well, there was a big hearing in front of the senate that Brigham Bueller, who was on yesterday, he was talking about it, you know, in front of all these representatives, and they're trying to explain what the system is and how fucked it is and how there's most of these European countries and Canada.
我们用的很多添加剂，尤其是食用色素。
There's a lot of ingredients, particularly dyes that we use.
你知道吗，他提到在美国卖的幸运麦片，在加拿大根本卖不了。
Like, you know, we he was talking about how Lucky Charms that you buy in America, you can't sell it in Canada.
加拿大得卖完全不一样的幸运麦片，因为他们不许用这些色素。
They have to sell a completely different Lucky Charms in Canada because Canada doesn't allow all
这些色素都有毒。
these dyes because they're toxic.
颜色亮得吓人。
Super bright color thing.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这些色素是有毒的，但我们还是允许使用，因为商家想吸引人，而且还有很多其他成分会让食物更让人上瘾。
Those are toxic dyes, and we allow them because we want people to and there's also a bunch of other ingredients that make the food more addictive.
这些成分都出现在我们的食品里，有些在其他国家是被禁止的。
Those are in our food supplies, and some of them are illegal in other countries.
这情况不太妙，听他描述的意思是，FDA根本忙不过来，而那些公司就在不断推这些产品，就跟我们昨天说的差不多。
It's not good, and there's it it seems like the way he was describing it is like the FDA is just completely overwhelmed, and they they you know, and then these companies are just pushing this stuff through, and it's it's kind of like the way we described it yesterday.
就像一个囤积症患者的家一样。
It's like a hoarder's house.
这种地方，你该怎么清理？
Like, how do you clean this up?
你走进一个囤积症患者的家，
Like, you get into a hoarder's house.
心里就忍不住想，天哪。
You're like, oh god.
是的。
Yeah.
我们到底该从哪儿开始下手？
Where do we where do we fucking start?
我们的食品系统就是这样的。
That's what our food system's like.
我们的食品系统就像一个杂物堆积如山的家。
Our food system's like a hoarder's house.
我听过这个人说话。
Well, I heard that guy.
我不记得他叫什么名字了。
I don't remember his name.
他是个风险投资人。
There's he was like he's a venture capitalist.
上周你们提到过，他说自己出国旅行时想吃什么就吃什么。
In the last week, you guys were talking about he was saying that, like, when he travels abroad, he can eat whatever he wants.
但一回到美国，体重就往上蹿。
And then when he comes back to The US, he puts on weight.
对。
Yes.
那就是查莫斯。
And That was Chamath.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这说法太棒了。
That was a great one.
他真的特别聪明。
He was he was incredibly intelligent.
我后来查别的东西时，偶然看到有人说，像赛百味三明治里的面包，在欧洲居然被归类为蛋糕。
And and then I was looking up something something else popped up where they were saying that the bread in in, like, Subway sandwiches is considered cake in Europe Yeah.
因为糖分太高了。
Because of the sugar content.
有些国家觉得那根本就是蛋糕，糖放得太多了。
Some countries consider it cake because it's it's mostly it's like, it's fucking cake.
这根本就不是真的，纯粹是瞎扯。
It's not really it's bullshit.
对。
Yeah.
市面上有很多垃圾食品，你知道的，我基本上都不吃那些东西。
We have bullshit food, And, you know, I don't eat most of that stuff.
但如果你常吃，身体肯定会出大问题，而且大多数人对此根本没有概念。
But if you do, you're gonna be really unhealthy, and most people aren't educated.
你知道的，我花了好长时间才搞明白这些。
You know, it took me a long time to understand this stuff.
其实我之前也试过健康饮食，但主要是靠听播客和跟人交流，才真正了解到那些东西对身体有多糟糕，然后自己试着调整饮食，发现身体感觉好多了。
And mostly I mean, I tried to eat healthy before that, but mostly through the podcast and talking to people, getting an understanding of how bad the stuff really is for you, and then experimenting with diet and watching how much better my body felt.
对。
Mhmm.
再看看那些不这么做的朋友，他们看起来状态差极了。
And seeing my friends who don't do it, and they just look like hell.
你现在主要吃肉食吗？
And you're mostly carnivore now?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
主要是水果和肉类，还有水果。
Mostly fruits and mostly meat and fruits.
是的。
Yeah.
我几乎不吃蔬菜，但也不刻意避开。
I mean, I I hardly eat any vegetables at all, but I don't avoid them.
没错。
Yeah.
比如出去吃饭，要是想吃凯撒沙拉之类的，我也会吃。
Like, if I want if I go out to dinner and I wanna have a Caesar salad or something, I'll eat it.
这对我没什么影响，但让我不舒服的是面食。
It doesn't seem to bother me, but what does seem to bother me is pasta.
面食和面包真的让我受不了。
Pasta and breads really hit home.
它们真的让我很不舒服，但在欧洲就不会。
They they really wreck me, but not in Europe.
在这里就不行。
Not here.
去年夏天我去了一趟意大利，吃了意面和披萨。
Went to Italy last summer, had pasta, had pizza.
一点问题都没有。
No problem at all.
但我就是不明白为什么。
But what I don't understand why
会这样。
it was.
我们平时做的一堆事情。
Bunch of things that we do.
罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 解释了很多原因。
Robert f Kennedy junior explained a lot of it.
加里·布雷卡也讲过不少。
So did Gary Breca.
他也说了很多关键点。
He explained a lot of it.
其中一个就是强化面粉，所谓的强化面粉。
One of them is enriched flour, what's so called enriched flour.
里面加了一堆化学物质，比如叶酸，还有好多身体很难消化的东西。
It contains a bunch of chemicals like folic acid and a bunch of shit your body has a hard time digesting.
意大利用的是传统小麦，那种小麦才是原生态的。
It's also they use heirloom wheat in in Italy, and heirloom wheat is the original wheat.
我们呢，改了小麦的品种，为了提高产量，让一小块地能产出更多麦子。
What we did was we changed wheat to make higher yield so that a smaller piece of land, you can get more weed out of it.
所以正因为这样，它含有更复杂的谷蛋白，身体更难消化。
So because of that, it has more complex glutens, makes it more difficult for your body to process.
再加上这一点，最重要的是——关于这个说法有很多猜测，但确实有相当有力的证据表明，大多数吃美式日常饮食的人，体内都有这种东西。
And then on top of that, the big one may be this is a lot there's a lot of speculation about this, but there's there's some serious evidence that most people who eat the common American diet, it's what was it?
体内含有农达的人占多大比例。
The number of the people that had Roundup in their system.
草甘膦？
So glyphosate What?
对。
Yeah.
草甘膦是一种强效除草剂，被广泛喷洒在各种作物上。
Glyphosate is a a really powerful pesticide that they spray on all kinds of different plants.
我听说，接受检测的人里，大约有九成体内都检出了草甘膦。
And I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of ninety percent of people tested had glyphosate in their system.
就是农达。
Roundup.
是的
Yeah.
先喷除草剂，然后把所有东西都杀光。
So Roundup spray and then kill everything.
没错。
Exactly.
在一些国家这已经是非法的了，在美国也该禁用。
And it's illegal in some countries and should be illegal in America.
但问题是，如果禁了，那些单一作物农业公司怎么运作？
But the problem is if you make it illegal, how are these monocrop agriculture companies gonna function?
明白了。
Okay.
高达百分之八十。
It's 80%.
儿童中有百分之八十七。
That's 87% of children.
87%的儿童。
87% of children.
这是2022年的情况。
So this is twenty twenty two.
是的。
Yeah.
我猜这个比例每年都在上升。
I would imagine this goes up every year.
百分之八十的美国人尿液里都有草甘膦。
Eighty percent of Americans have Roundup in their urine.
这太惊人了。
That is so crazy.
这太危险了。
That's so dangerous.
这太可怕了。
That's terrifying.
从人类历史的角度来看，这其实也很新。
And it's also fairly new in terms of human history.
我的意思是，我觉得草甘膦大概是九十年代才出现的吧？
I mean, I think Roundup has only been around since the is it the nineties?
草甘膦是什么时候开始在农作物上广泛使用的？
When did Roundup when did glyphosate start becoming ubiquitous on on crops?
这太危险了，我们简直是在赌命。
It's fucking dangerous, man, because we're rolling the dice.
很多人吃的东西，都会带来长期的健康问题。
A lot of the stuff that people eat causes long term health consequences.
对。
Mhmm.
所以像那些才出现五六年的物质，要过很久才能看清它们到底造成了什么影响。
And so when you're dealing with short term stuff, like stuff that's only been around for five, six years, it it takes a long time before you figure out what's happening.
哦，1974年，草甘膦上市了，它含有活性成分。
Oh, so '74, Roundup, which contains active ingredients.
草甘膦最早是在1974年投入商业农业使用的。
Glyphosate was first introduced to commercial agriculture in '74.
我们往下拉一下，看看它是什么时候开始大规模使用的。
So, like so scroll down so we could see, like, when it, like, ramps up.
就是1974年。
So '74.
明白了。
Okay.
直到1996年才开始广泛使用。
Wasn't widely used until '96.
我之前看到过这个说法。
That's what I I read.
孟山都开始销售抗草甘膦的转基因种子。
So Monsanto began selling genetically modified seeds that were resistant to Roundup.
这样一来，农民就可以直接在整片田地上喷洒草甘膦，而不用担心作物受损——毕竟它是一种除草剂。
This allowed farmers to spray their entire crop beds with Roundup without risking losing their it's an herbicide.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
不是杀虫剂，是除草剂。
Not a a pesticide, an herbicide.
但对你来说简直糟透了。
But it's fucking terrible for you.
太糟糕了。
Terrible.
有百分之八十的人体内都检测到了它。
And eighty percent of people have it in their blood.
草甘膦、微塑料、滴滴涕。
Roundup, microplastics, DDT.
是的。
Yeah.
然后呢，那个叫什么来着？
And then in the and then what was that?
好像是淘金热那会儿，大家打开罐头后都用铅来重新封口，结果很多人后来死于铅中毒，直到很久以后才弄明白原因。
Think it was during the gold rush times that everybody was using lead to to to replug cans after they opened them, and then, you know, thousands of people died from lead poisoning before they figured it out.
谢恩·吉利斯讲过一个关于乔治·华盛顿的段子。
Shane Gillis has a great joke about George Washington.
乔治·华盛顿的假牙是用铅做的。
George Washington's dentures were made out of lead.
所以他才那么疯，根本就是铅中毒。
That's why George Washington was such a fucking psycho.
他就是铅中毒。
He's like lead poisoning.
他根本不算勇敢。
He wasn't brave.
简直太疯狂了。
Was just insane.
我看过报道，说现在大多数男性的精液和睾丸里都能检测到塑料成分。
I read that when they were talking about the amount of plastic that people find, like, in most men have plastic in their sperm, plastic in their their testicles.
大脑里也有塑料，其中很多来自PVC材料。
You have plastic in your brain, and a lot of that plastic is the plastic that's derived from PVC.
所以这些塑料主要来自水管。
So it's coming from water pipes.
我以为我们的水管
I thought our water pipes
是金属的。
are metal.
有些水管确实是金属的。
Some water pipes are metal.
不过我以前干建筑的时候，盖过很多房子，用的都是PVC管。
But when I used to do construction, we did a lot of houses where they use PVC pipes.
对。
Yeah.
你看，厨房水槽下面有很多PVC管之类的。
See, this this is A lot of PVC pipes underneath kitchen sinks and stuff.
所以水经过这些管道时，你会接触到这些微小的塑料颗粒。你用它做饭，或者接一杯自来水喝。
So all that stuff, when water's going through that, you're picking up these little particles plastic, and that little those little particles of plastic, you know, you cook your food in it, you drink a glass of water from the tap.
所有这些都会让你摄入塑料。
All that stuff is getting you plastic.
还有微波炉加热食物。
And then there's cooking in microwave.
你知道，就是那种盖子上贴一层保鲜膜，然后放进微波炉加热的塑料碗。
You know, if you have, like, one of those things you lift up and, you know, have a piece of plastic over the lid and you cook microwave with that, and it's in a plastic bowl.
这些东西全他妈进到身体里去了。
That's all fucking getting into your body.
全都进
That's all getting
进入你的血液。
in your blood.
我被自己吓到了，因为有一次远征时我们用塑料杯煮咖啡，然后直接倒进塑料杯里喝。
Well, I I scared myself with that because we had plastic cups on an expedition, and we boiled coffee, and then I poured it into the plastic cup.
我当时就意识到，我们得赶紧改掉这个习惯。
And I was like, I was like, we gotta stop doing this.
于是我们开始在远征时带金属杯和玻璃杯。
So we started bringing, like, metal and glass cups on on expeditions.
当然，市面上有很多专为露营者设计的用品，所以我们换成了这种不锈钢杯子。
Obviously, they make stuff for campers that you can get, you know, and that's why we switched these steel cups here.
以前我们不知浪费了多少瓶矿泉水。
We we used to just go through so many bottles of water.
我觉得这太离谱了。
I was like, this is fucked.
所以我们后来就改了。
So we Yeah.
买了个过滤系统，然后开始用不锈钢杯子。
Bought a filtration system and, you know, and and started using steel cups.
但这就像美国现在的状况一样。昨天我和布里格姆聊到的一个话题，就是‘让美国再次健康起来’的运动，这背后有小罗伯特·肯尼迪和其他一些人在推动。
But it's like our this whole thing in America, one of the things we talked about yesterday with Brigham is the make America healthy again movement, which is Robert Kennedy junior and a bunch of other folks that are involved in this.
这势头越来越猛，挺让人兴奋的，因为大家开始关心自己的健康，也担心食物里那些乱七八糟的化学物质。
And it's exciting that this is gaining steam because people are concerned about their health, and they are concerned about all the different chemicals that are in your fucking food.
但问题是，现在这件事被右翼意识形态给绑定了。
But the problem is now that's been attached to right wing ideology.
所以那些对极右翼感兴趣的人都在互相称呼对方，而且这简直……
So people are calling people that are interested in that far right people, and it's just If
你是担心食品安全吗？
you're worried about food safety?
对。
Yeah.
太疯狂了，哥们。
It's nuts, man.
但这只是因为这事跟特朗普扯上了关系。
But it's just because it's attached to Trump.
因为特朗普政府搞过‘让美国再次伟大’，也搞过‘让美国更健康’，跟罗伯特·肯尼迪 Jr. 他们一帮人搞在一起。
It's because the Trump administration, you know, make America great again and also make America healthy again with Robert Kennedy junior.
他就是参与了这个事。
He's involved in that.
所以大家直接把这当成右翼极端分子的胡言乱语，什么玄乎的伪科学，其实根本不是这么回事。
So people are just labeling that as some sort of alt right fuckery and woo woo bullshit, and it's not.
这对我们所有人来说都危险得很，我们真得醒醒了。
It's fucking dangerous for all of us, and we really need to wake up.
不过在美国，尤其是最穷的人，是不是通常吃得最差？
Isn't it also true though that that in America, least, like, the poorest people are usually the ones with the worst diets?
没错，完全对。
Absolutely.
所以你其实也是自然而然地走到了这一步，觉得这样才对。
So I mean, like, you like, you've naturally progressed towards going, okay.
我吃麋鹿肉，也吃蔬菜，很在意食物的来源。
So I eat elk and I eat vegetables and I care about where I get my stuff from.
但有些人根本没能力做这种选择，在我看来，有些事我们本该达成共识的。
But people that aren't able to make that decision, that would seem to me there's certain things where you go, shouldn't we all agree on this?
是的。
Yeah.
比如说食品安全。
You know, food safety.
我们难道不该都认同这一点吗？
Shouldn't we just all agree with this?
我真不明白。
I don't understand
这怎么就变成政治问题了。
be political at all.
这怎么会变成政治话题。
How that becomes political.
说到自然保护，我一直搞不懂，那些数据明明这么清晰，怎么就没人理呢？
When it comes to nature conservation, I never understood how that, you know, I'm like, all these clean numbers.
可以
Can
解决。
be solved.
这才是真正荒唐的地方。
And this is what's fucked.
我们有那么多钱去帮其他国家解决问题，却没钱解决自己的健康问题。
It's like we have so much money to solve other countries' problems, and we don't have any money to solve our own health problems.
这太奇怪了。
That's very strange.
这既短视又荒谬，我们得采取点行动了。
It's it's very shortsighted and very bizarre, and we need to do something about it.
我们现在就必须采取行动了。
We we need to do something about it now.
想想看，如果这种情况继续放任下去，这些公司只要有利可图，就会继续卖给你对健康有害的东西，而且还不用承担任何后果，这真的让人害怕。
It's just it's it's really scary when you think that this if this unchecked happens, these corporations will continue to sell you things that are very bad for you if they're profitable as long as they're not penalized for it.
我敢打赌，那些清楚内情的人——他们自己根本不会碰这些东西。
And I guarantee you, those people that know that, the people that are in they probably don't eat any of that shit.
就像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样。
That's like Steve Jobs.
我不确定这到底是不是真的。
I don't if it's true.
我听说史蒂夫·乔布斯不让孩子接触电子屏幕。
I heard that Steve Jobs wouldn't give his kids Yeah.
屏幕。
Screens.
是的。
Yeah.
他们心里清楚得很。
They they know.
你去餐厅的时候，会看到小孩子坐在餐盘旁，手里拿着iPad，一动不动，就为了让父母能安心聊天。
When you go to restaurants, you see little kids with an iPad sitting on a tray just standing there so their parents can have a conversation.
孩子整个人都像被催眠了一样。
The kid's just, like, hypnotized
老兄，孩子看的都是卡通片。
Dude, kid's cartoon.
孩子还没学会说话，就已经会滑屏了。
Kids are swiping before they're talking.
这个动作啊。
Oh, this motion.
对，没错。
Oh, yeah.
他们的手指早就练出来了。
They got that finger out.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们还试着对杂志这么做。
They try to do it to magazines.
你有没有见过小孩子
Ever see little kids
想这么操作？
try to do that?
真的假的。
Yo.
我见过一个小孩想把杂志放大。
I saw a kid try to expand a magazine.
我想我以前也这么干过。
I think I did that once.
我之前陪一个婴儿待着，就跟他说，你看这张图。
I was just hanging out with a baby, and I was like, look at this picture.
我给他看一本书，他伸手就去摸，我赶紧说，别这样。
And I showed him a book, and he put his hands on it, and he went, and I was like, no.
不是这么操作的。
It doesn't work like that.
我好像真干过一回。
I went I think I almost did that once.
我记得我看过一本杂志。
I I think I looked at a magazine.
我手都抬起来了。
I I brought my hand up.
你这是在干嘛？
What the fuck are you doing?
对啊。
Yeah.
我最近做得最糟的事就是，有时候出门不带手机，完全没意识到。
My thing is the worst thing that I've done recently is I didn't have you know, I start doing activities without my phone on me.
有次我去跑步，看到个挺酷的东西。
And like, I, I went for a run, I saw something cool.
我当时就想，哎，得拍张照留个念。
And I was like, oh, I need to take a picture of that.
可我该怎么拍呢？
And I was like, how?
居然连不能拍照这件事，我都给忘了。
Just I the the idea that I couldn't take a picture of something
对啊。
Right.
我都已经把不能拍照这回事给抛到脑后了。
Had become something that I forgot about.
没错。
Right.
我什么东西都拍。
I take a picture of everything.
我一天大概能拍四百张照片。
I probably take 400 pictures a day.
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