#2292 - 乔希·维茨金

在纽约的最后两年，我深深爱上了冲浪，我知道海洋艺术将是我人生的下一篇章，无法每天冲浪让我心碎不已。于是我买了一台单轮电动滑板，就是最早的那一代，你知道的，那种只有一个轮子的电子滑板。是的。

My last two years living in New York, I I had fallen so in love with surfing, and I was I knew ocean arts were my next chapter, and I was so heartbroken not to be able to do it every day. I got a one wheel. It was like the first generation you know, the one with electronic skateboards with one Yeah.

是的，我们也有一个那样的。

Yeah. We have one of those.

刚推出第一代时我就买了，我骑着它在纽约到处转，跑了得有几千英里。但那是早期版本，如果你突破阻力提示——它有个会减速的阻力提示机制，但你可以强行突破它加速。不过如果突破最终阻力极限，它就会直接失速。砰的一声。

Just came out first generation old, and I was just like thousands of miles biking one wheeling all over New York. And then but it was at the early one. If you push past the pushback, it had this pushback thing, which would slow you down, but you could push past it and go faster. But if you push past the final pushback, it just bottomed out. Wham.

描述一下。我正在想象那个场景。好的。所以你可以刹车。还可以倒车，这是大多数自行车做不到的。

Describe it. I'm thinking of it that way. Okay. So you can brake. You can also reverse, which you can't do on most bikes.

可以倒着骑哦。

You can ride backwards Oh.

如果有需要的话。其实很优美。我的意思是，我...这个不是我...我从来没试过，但看别人熟练操作时真的很赏心悦目。

If you needed to. It's really beautiful. I mean, I I this wasn't this I never did it, but it's really beautiful to watch when it's done well.

好吧。听说可以甩尾停车让我放心多了。

Okay. Well, that makes me feel better that you could just skid.

是的。可以甩尾停车。虽然会磨损轮胎，但能刹住车。有很多可能

Yeah. You could skid. Retire, but you could stop. There's lots of things that can

出问题的地方。但那就是

go wrong. But that's

最美事物的特质。出问题的可能性很多。就像水翼冲浪，他妈的有太多可能出错的环节。你在35、40英里的时速下站在一把水上断头台上，面对巨浪。兄弟，糟心事可能多了去了

what most beautiful things. There are lots of things that go wrong. Foiling, there's a lot of fucking things that can go wrong. You're 35, 40 miles an hour on top of a guillotine, big waves. I mean Dude, I shit can go wrong

两年前学冲浪水翼板，我他妈第一次上去花了大概三个小时，因为我从来没玩过

how to foil two years ago, and it took me, like, three hours to get on that fucking thing for the first time because I've never served

你在玩电动水翼板？还是普通水翼板？电动水翼。对。对。

You're on an e foil or Yeah. Foil. Yeah. Yeah.

花了我一辈子时间。不停地摔倒又爬起来，再摔倒。当时我最小那个12岁的女儿简直让我丢尽了脸。她一下子就跳上去，嗖嗖地滑来滑去，一看就会了

Took me forever. Just kept falling down, getting back up, falling down. Meanwhile, my kids, my youngest at the time, she was 12, humiliated me. Yeah. She just hopped on it instantly, was scooting around, and, look, she knew how to do it immediately.

但她玩尾波滑水啊。对。她经常玩那些玩意儿。她运动神经很好，但就是在羞辱我，我当时就想非得学会不可。拼了老命

But she she wakeboards. She Yeah. She does a lot of that shit. She's really athletic, but she was just humiliating me, I was just like, I'm gonna figure this out. Eat up dead.

好几个小时，我不停摔倒又爬起来，最后终于掌握了。一旦会了之后就觉得特别简单。对。一旦掌握了就

Hours, I kept falling down and getting back up, falling down, and eventually, got it. And then once I got it, it was, like, easy. Yeah. Once I got it, was

就像恍然大悟。电动水翼板是最好的学习方式，因为它们重90磅。电动水翼板确实重。高性能大浪水翼板整套装备才四五磅重。真的吗

like, oh, I see. Efoiling is the best it's like it's the best way to learn how to foil because you they weigh 90 pounds. The efoils do. Like, a high performance big wave a high performance foil, the whole setup will weigh four or five pounds. Really?

没错。电动水翼板有电池，很重，但靠电力帮你学习水翼动力学。在大浪中玩高性能水翼冲浪时，如果是被拖拽入浪，你用的就是三英尺半的板子。没有电池

Yeah. I mean, e foil, you have a battery. It's heavy, and you've got electricity to learn how to to learn foil dynamics. Foiling when you're high performance foiling in in Big Surf, you're you're just on a like, if you're towing in, you're on a three and a half foot board. No no batter.

不是电动的。就是纯靠...哦懂了。纯粹依靠流体动力学滑行

It's it's not powered. It's just Oh, okay. You're just riding hydrodynamics.

是被拖拽进浪的吗

Are you getting towed into

这些大浪？是被拖拽进去的——也可以划水入浪，但如果是被拖进大浪，就用小板子。被摩托艇拖着冲进去，然后纯粹靠滑行。超级刺激。完全无摩擦

these waves? You're getting you're getting towed you can paddle in or but if you're towing in to bigger waves, you're on a small board. You're getting towed in behind a jet ski whipped in, and then you're just riding. It's epic. It's frictionless.

太美了。而且

So beautiful. And

这比冲浪好在哪？是因为你在水面上吗？

what's the benefit of that above surfing? Is that you're above the water?

你在水面上。你不会感觉到，如果你想象一下最完美的玻璃海冲浪日，那种无摩擦的感觉，这比那更无摩擦，因为你在水面上。

You're above the water. You're not feel like, the ultimate if you think about the the the glassiest surf day possible, the frictionless feeling, it's it's more frictionless than that because you're above the water.

你是的。我在电动水翼板上也有这种感觉。当你加速时，你在水面上，这太疯狂了。我总是觉得我要摔倒了。我要摔倒了。

You're Yeah. I get that on the e foil. When you get cooking on the e foil, you're above the water, and it's wild. It just I always feel like I'm gonna fall. I'm gonna fall.

我要摔倒了。

I'm gonna fall.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。一旦他们升到水面上，就像，好吧。我们太快了。你会摔跤的。水翼板有趣的地方在于

Yeah. As soon as they get above the water, like, okay. We're going too fast. You're gonna wipe out. The foil is interesting because

这就像是终极的感应，因为水翼板能捕捉到水下的波浪环流。所以当你速度很快时，它能获得升力。而且当你在浪中时，波浪在浪面有向上的环流。当你到达浪顶时，它会加速。所以你的水翼板是在骑乘水下洋流，而你是在接收它。

it's it's like the ultimate receptivity because the foil picks up on underwater wave circulation. So it's picking up on lift when you're going very fast. And also when you're in a wave, the waves have have upward circulation at the at the face of the wave. When you get to the top of the wave, it it accelerates. And so your your foil is riding the underwater currents, and you're receiving it.

这被放大了很多。所以，微小的动作都会对它有巨大影响。因此，冲浪的动作会很大，而水翼板的身体力学动作非常微妙。然后你学会真正发力进去，这是无限的。你可以在开阔水域进行水翼滑行，用长高展弦比翼横跨海洋，骑乘公海涌浪，你可以哇。

It's so amplified. So, like, tiny little movements have big effects on the thing. So, like, the surf movement will be very big, and the the foil movement is very subtle of the body mechanic. And then you learn to really crank into it, and it's limitless. You can do open water, foiling, crossing oceans on long high aspect wings, riding open ocean swells, and you can Wow.

你可以推动，比如，高性能水翼滑行就像高性能冲浪，你能划出的线路。转弯非常史诗。承受的G力疯狂。

You can push like, high performance foiling is just like high performance surfing that the lines you can draw. The turns are epic. The g's are crazy.

所以你是完全投入在这件事上了，

So you're just all in on this,

你？哦，是的。我完全投入了。

you? Oh, yeah. I'm all in on this.

这是你每天都要做的事吗？是的。

Is it an everyday thing for you? Yes.

每天。就像柔术一样，每周六天，可能的话一天两次。

Every day. Same same as jiu jitsu, six days a week, twice a day if possible.

真的吗？是的。哇。是的。哇。

Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

你有目标吗？追求卓越。

Do you have goals? Virtuosity.

是的。我一生都在比赛，所以现在我就像在世锦赛训练营一样训练。

Yeah. I I competed my whole life, and and so now I live like, I train the way I would if I was in a world championship training camp.

太有意思了。用翼装飞行。还有谁在这么做？

That's hilarious. With foiling. Who else is doing that?

就几个疯子。

Just a couple lunatics.

还有多少人像为世界锦标赛训练一样玩翼装飞行？

How many other people are foiling like they're training for a world championship activity?

活动？是的。是的。这是一个，但有趣的是，我...是的。我热爱它。

Activity? Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a but the interesting thing is, like, I yeah. I love it.

但所有这些艺术对我来说都是相通的。这就是我艺术的奇妙之处，比如国际象棋、中国武术、柔术、冲浪、水翼冲浪。对我来说，当你接近一门艺术的顶峰时，最迷人的是——至少从我的视角来看——你会发现这些艺术的巅峰彼此之间的距离，比同一座艺术山脉中较低处的人们要近得多。嗯。所以，在不同领域达到大师级水平的人，往往比同一艺术中较低水平的训练者说着更为相似的语言。

It it's but all these arts to me are connected. That's the strange thing about my art, like chess, Chinese martial arts, jiu jitsu, surfing, foiling. To me, the fascinating thing when you get toward the pinnacle of an art is that you start to experience, at least in my from my perspective, that the apexes of these arts are much closer to one another than lower down in the mountain of the same art. Mhmm. So people who are virtuosos in various fields are often speaking a much more similar language than people who are at lower levels of the same art than their training.

而且，当我思考国际象棋时，我是通过核心原则来理解它的，而这些原则在武术中也有所体现。我记得...当我写我的第一本书，或者说是我的第二本书《学习的艺术》时，它讲述的是我从国际象棋跨界到中国武术的经历。我有一次非常有趣的经历，当时我正在为杜氏肌营养不良症慈善活动进行一场同时对阵40人的象棋表演赛。但那时，我已经训练武术两年了，那段时间我已经逐渐从象棋转向了其他领域。我意识到，虽然我在赢这些象棋比赛，同时下40盘棋，但我并没有在下象棋。

And, like, when I think about about chess, I related to chess through through core principles, and those principles manifest in the martial arts. I remember that I had this this When I wrote my first book, the art of or my my second book, the art of learning, it was about my experience of crossing over my level from chess into the into the Chinese martial arts. And I had this really interesting experience where I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition playing 40 games at once in a charity for Duchenne muscular dystrophy. But I was at a point that point, I've been training martial arts for two years, and I had not been I I'd kinda moved to I was moved in the transition away from chess during that period. And I had this realization that I was winning these chess games, playing 40 games at once, but I was not playing chess.

我是在感受流动，驾驭着留下的空间。我像是在垫子上流动一样，驾驭着比赛的能量波，但同时我在走象棋的步子。我意识到这些艺术已经从根本上连接在一起了。然后，这成为了一个我感兴趣并探索的领域。我开始将无意识的行为变得越来越有意识。

I was feeling flow riding space left behind. I was riding the energetic wave of the game like I would if we were flowing on the mats, but I was making chess moves. And I realized that these arts had become fundamentally connected. And then that became, like, an area of interest and of exploration. I started making what I was doing unconsciously more and more conscious.

现在，当我与国际象棋互动时，我不再移动棋子了，但象棋体现在我所做的一切中，柔术也是如此。就像在海洋艺术中，我也在体现这些其他艺术，通过它们体验到的核心原则。

And now when I relate to the chess, I don't move chess pieces anymore, but chess is manifest in everything that I do as is jujitsu. And as is, like, in the ocean arts, I'm manifesting these other arts, the core principles I've experienced through

是的。

them Yeah.

一直都是。就是这样。多年来我一直困惑的一件事是，为什么国际象棋他妈这么难。比如，象棋没有任何运气成分。世界上最顶尖的象棋选手在他们所做的事情上如此出色。

All the time. And and that's it. One of the things that I've I've been puzzled by for many years is why chess is so fucking hard. Like, chess has no luck. The best chess players in the world are so brilliant at what they do.

我听了你和马格努斯·卡尔森的那期节目。很享受。

I listened to your episode with Magnus Carlsen. Enjoyed it.

他很棒。

He was great.

是的。很酷。像马格努斯这样的人，他在自己所做的事情上他妈太厉害了。真是个大师。但如果你看看前100或前1000名的象棋选手，他们都非常强大。

Yeah. It was cool. Like, someone like Magnus, he's so fucking good at what he does. Such a virtuoso. But if you look at, like, the top 100 or top thousand chess players, they're they're tremendously strong.

但当他们试图将这种能力迁移到其他领域时，往往无法做到，这令人惊讶。多年来我一直在思考原因——按理说，如果你能精通某项极难的事物，应该也能驾驭相对简单的事物并变得出色。我认为人们难以跨领域迁移能力的原因在于，他们是用局部化的语言学习的。比如学象棋可以只学象棋专用的原则，也可以用连通生活的语言来学习。

But when they try to translate their ability to other fields, they often can't, and it's surprising. And I've tried to figure out why for a lot of years because you think, like, if you're able to just be so excellent at something that's super hard, you could take on something that's relatively easier and become very good at it. And I think that the reason that people often can't cross level over from one thing to the other is that they learn it in a localized language. So you can learn chess in a way which is very specific to chess. Like principles that are just chess principles, or you can learn chess in a language which connects to all of life.

这不会拖慢进度，反而可能加速象棋学习。如果孩子们通过学习象棋、体操、音乐等深度接触艺术，他们是在触摸品质，突破极限——

And that won't slow down. It might accelerate your chess learning. But you can but it but, like and if children are taught games like chess or gymnastics or music or whatever else with so they're learning about that art very deeply. They're touching quality. They're pushing their limits.

过着我知道你非常重视的训练生活，但用的是与生活相通的语言。这样他们在学象棋或柔术时，也在学习主题互联性，本质上是在掌握卓越的语言。

They're living a life of training as I know you value very much. But they're doing so in a language which connects to the rest of life. Then they're they're studying thematic connect interconnectedness while they're studying chess or jujitsu or anything else. And then they're just learning the language of excellence. Yeah.

有趣的是，许多象棋教练教学时并不这样做。他们局限在棋盘范围内教学，就像监狱。这样学棋如同困于孤岛，四周海洋如同狱墙。但若以「每个象棋原则都连通其他艺术」的方式学习，你的脑海中就会形成互联之网。

And and I I it's interesting because if you watch chess player chess teachers teaching students, many of them don't do this. They teach it within, like, the confines of the chessboard, like a prison. And if you learn chess that way, then it's like you're living on an island and the ocean around you is like prison walls. Right? But if you study chess in a way that you're you're you're learning how each chess principle connects to every other art you could ever study, then just there was this web of interconnectedness is forming in your mind.

当你涉足其他领域时，就能非常自然地实现能力迁移。这很大程度上正是我毕生工作的核心——研究这种互联性。

And then when you take on something else, you're able to cross the level over really really naturally. And that in many ways, that's my that's a a big part of my life's work is the study of that interconnectedness.

你是否认为，15岁因电影成名迫使你重新审视与生活的互动方式，这是关键因素？从童年棋手到突然备受关注，不得不应对种种问题。如你所说，挑战让人变得更复杂。这种被迫将象棋搁置、尝试新事物的能力，是否源于你必须探索其他可能性的渴望？因为你的核心事物已然改变——不再只是沉浸棋艺精进与博弈，

Do you think that a huge well, it had to be a huge factor for you that you were sort of forced to reevaluate the way you interface with life when you became famous because of the film at 15. So childhood chess player become very well recognized, and then all of a sudden this movie, and now you have to kind of, like, grapple with things. And as you said, these challenges make you a more complex person. And then your ability to sort of push chess aside and try other things, do you think that's because of that it has to be a factor in your this desire to explore other things because you're kinda thrust into this thing where your your thing is now changed. Your thing is now not just flowing and learning and getting better and and and doing battle with chess.

而是不得不面对形象、追捧者等需要迎合的荒诞现实，你厌恶这些并想要逃离。这种青少年关键成长期被迫的重新评估，为你打开了体验不同生活方式、探索人生多种可能的大门。

Now it's image and groupies and this bizarre thing that you're living up to, and you don't like it, and you wanna escape it. And so you have to reevaluate. And so this forced reevaluation from a young age at 15 years old, this key developmental period as a young man sort of opens you up to the possibilities of all sorts of different ways of living life and all sorts of different things to do with life.

是的。我用的表述是：从「前意识竞争者」到「后意识竞争者」的过渡——

Yeah. A language I use for this is the the passage from the preconscious to the postconscious competitor or

或艺术家。

artist. And,

在15岁之前，我自视为「前意识竞争者」：热爱象棋，享受自由流动的对弈与竞争。

like, when I up until 15, I I would relate to myself as the preconscious competitor. I love chess. It was free flowing. I love the battle. I love the competition.

我热爱那种痛扁与被痛扁的感觉。我就是他妈的爱死了这种战斗。然后，然后，然后我在15岁时第一次坠入爱河。那部电影在那之后上映了，我开始研究存在主义文学。我开始反思这一切的荒诞性。

I love the ass kicking and the kicking ass. I I just love the fucking battle of the thing. And then and then then I had I I fell in love for the first time when I was 15. The movie came out after that, and I started studying existentialist literature. I started reflecting on the absurdity of it all.

我开始意识到，这不过是64个格子和32个棋子。就像，我花了一生的时间研究这个他妈的盒子，木盒子，这个建构本身，被困在这个建构中的荒诞性变得清晰起来。然后我变得越来越在意别人如何看待我所做的事，我迷失在了这一切之中。在很多方面，就像，这段旅程，大多数人，像，有些人很长时间都不会遇到这种情况。比如，有些棋手变得极其强大，却从未反思过他们只是在玩一个游戏的荒诞事实。而那是一种巨大的解脱。

I started to become present to the fact that these were just 64 squares and 32 pieces. Like, I was spending my life studying this fucking box, wood wooden box, like the construct, the absurdity of being stuck in that construct became clear to me. And then I was becoming more and more self conscious about how what I was doing was perceived by others, and I got lost in all of that. And in many ways, like, the journey like, most peep most peep like, some people don't run into that for a long time. Like, there are some chess players that just become insanely strong without ever reflecting on the absurdity of the fact that they're just playing And that's a great liberation.

就像，就在你意识到自己终有一死、可能会被痛扁、胳膊会断、会死、你所做的一切都很荒诞的那一刻，你就会被这种认知所束缚。对吧。就像，这可以有多种不同的形式。或者那一刻你，比如说，波士顿凯尔特人队，你渴望赢得世界冠军，然后你赢得了NBA总决赛。突然间，一切都变了。

Like, that that the moment you become aware of the fact that you're mortal, that you can get your ass kicked, that your arm can break, that you can die, that what you're doing is absurd, like, you get locked up by that knowledge. Right. Like, and there's so many different forms that can take. Or the moment you like, for example, Boston Celtics, like, they like, you're hungering to win a world championship, and then you win the NBA finals. Suddenly, everything changes.

你的关系、你的动机都变了，你之所以做这件事的所有理由在某种程度上都不再成立，因为现在你已经实现了你一直梦想的目标，你必须去重新发现。根据我的经验，在任何形式的竞争或艺术中都是如此，总会有那么一个时刻，一个人的意识变得更为复杂，他们无法再回到从前那种天真无邪的状态，因为你已经做不到了。你无法把它再放回盒子里。对吧。它已经出来了。

Your relationship, your motivation changes, all the reasons you're doing it are no longer valid in some ways because now you've accomplished the thing you always dreamed of and you have to discover. It's true in any form of competition or art in my experience is that there comes a moment where someone's consciousness becomes more complicated, and they can't just return to the innocence they had before because now you can't do that. You can't put it back in the box. Right. It's out.

所以你必须经历那段旅程，这很大程度上就是我十几岁后期离开棋坛、研究哲学、然后转入其他领域所做的事，并开始以一种整合了那种自我意识、整合了那种死亡感的方式去接触艺术。这就像当我，我，一个非常有力的例子是，我，我，我差点淹死在游泳池里，我想，大概是十年前。我当时在做低氧呼吸训练，维姆·霍夫训练法，天哪。请大家千万不要在游泳池里做维姆·霍夫训练，因为你正在将二氧化碳从体内排出，但二氧化碳才是给你呼吸欲望的东西。所以体内没有二氧化碳时，你不会感到需要呼吸。

So then you have to work through that journey, which is a lot of what I did from, like, my late teenage years leaving and studying philosophy and then moving into other fields and started relating to art in a way that was integrating that self awareness, integrating that sense of mortality. It's like when I I I a very powerful example of this was I I I die I drown in a pool, I guess, like, ten years ago. I was doing hypoxic breath work, Wim Hof training Jesus Christ. And never do Wim Hof training, everybody please, in a pool because you're you're flushing the c o two from your body, but c o two is what gives you the urge to breathe. And so without carbon dioxide in your being in your you don't feel the urge to breathe.

所以我，我一生都在自由潜水捕鱼，从五六岁就开始了，但我以前从未在自由潜水前做低氧呼吸训练。所以如果你潜到80、90、100英尺深，你在下水前并没有排出体内的二氧化碳，所以你仍然保有那种需要呼吸时的感觉。但当时我在纽约大学的一个游泳池里。我只是在水下游50米，再游50米回来，然后在间歇做这种低氧呼吸训练。然后我最后的记忆是，在极乐中伸展身体，那种传遍全身的刺痛感——你做过维姆·霍夫训练吗？

And so I and I've been a lifetime free diver spearfishing from from when I was five, six years old, but I was never doing hypoxic breath work before free diving. So if you're diving eighty, ninety, a 100 feet, you're you're not flushing the c o two from your body before you do so, so you have you still have that that sense for when you need to breathe. But I was in a NYU pool. I was at just swimming 50 meters 50 meters back and forth underwater and then doing this this hypoxic worth breath work in between. And then I my last recollection is being stretched out in bliss that those tingles through your body you get from have you done Wim Hof training?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。你知道，那些刺痛感。嗯。感受到了那些该死的刺痛感。然后我三十分钟后醒了过来。实际情况是，我昏过去了。

Yeah. Those, you know, those tingles Mhmm. Had those fucking tingles. And then I woke up thirty minutes later. What happened was that I blacked out.

我在昏过去之后，在池底待了超过四分钟，是由于浅水昏厥。

I was in the bottom of the pool for over four minutes after blacking out from shallow water blackout.

哦，我的天啊。

Oh my god.

按理说应该是45秒到一分钟，你就该脑死亡或者直接死亡了，因为你是浅水黑视后状态。我知道时间是因为泳池里有个老先生看到我在池底，他游了一圈，他的一圈用时一分多钟。所以我是第二圈。他游完第三圈后说，让我看看他是不是还在下面。他以为我在憋气，但其实我只是游泳时在憋气。

Which should it should be forty five seconds to a minute, and you should be brain dead or dead because you're post shallow water blackout. I know the time it was because there's an old man at the pool who saw me in the bottom of the pool and swam one lap, and his his laps were a little bit over a minute. So I'm a second lap. After his third lap, he said, let me I'll check on him if he's still down. Thought He I was holding my breath, but I was only holding my breath while swimming.

所以如果我静止不动，我他妈早就昏过去了。他第四圈游完，第四圈之后他把我拉了上来。我浑身发青。天啊。身体都蓝了。

So if I was still, I was fucking out. His fourth lap, after his fourth lap, he pulled me up. I was blue. Oh my god. Body was blue.

我的头是红的。我的身体救了我。我的训练救了我，也差点杀了我。把所有血液都输送到了大脑。之后三周我的眼睛都是通红充血的。

My head was red. My body saved me. My training saved me and almost and killed me. Sent all the blood to my brain. My eyes were blown out red like bloodshot for three weeks that followed.

我记得醒来时看到周围所有人都看着我，就像，大家他妈的在干什么？发生什么事了？然后我意识到我就是那个他妈的事故。哇。那天晚上我在医院里做了各种胸部检查，试图测试我的大脑。

And I I remember waking up and having this everyone looking everyone around me and like, what the fuck is everyone what's going on guys? Like, what's the drama? I realized that was the fucking drama. Wow. And I spent that night in the hospital going through old chest variations trying to like test my brain.

我的大脑是不是废了？我还记得事情吗？不知怎么的，我的大脑可能有点问题，但看起来运作得还不错。哇。但那也是让我意识到必须把生命奉献给海洋的重要原因，因为我能感觉到潜在的PTSD反应。

Is my brain brain ruined? Like do I remember things? Somehow my brain maybe it's fucked up but it seems like it'd be working pretty well. Wow. But like I can't and and and that was also a big part of me realizing I had to spend my life in the in the ocean because like I could feel the potential for some PTSD response.

我确实能感觉到那种潜在的创伤反应，就像一片乌云正在笼罩我。我能看到乌云袭来，但我他妈的就是决定不让它进来。第二天我就回到了水里，我想这就是我与海洋关系的重要部分——曾经在水中死过。我需要把生命奉献给水域。

Like, I could I could actually feel the potential trauma response like a cloud that was washing over me. Like, I could see the cloud coming, and I would just fucking decided not to let it in. And I got back in the water the next day, and I I just fucking and I think that's a big part of my relationship with the ocean is having died in water. I need to spend my life in the water.

你在失去意识时有没有任何灵魂出窍之类的体验？

Did you have any sort of out of body experience or anything while you're gone?

最诡异的是完全没有。这才是最疯狂的。直接一片漆黑。疯狂的是我最后的记忆只有刺痛感和极乐感，然后就醒来了。所以如果没人把我拉出来，根本不会有任何人生走马灯。

What's really fucked up about it is no. That's what's really wild. It went just black. That's what's crazy is that I I went my last memory is of just tingles and bliss and then waking up. And so if I hadn't been pulled out, there would have been no flash.

没有看到人生闪回。没有通往另一端的隧道。什么都没有。不过真正疯狂的是多年后，我和布兰登·鲍威尔合作——他是顶尖的维姆·霍夫训练师兼导师中的导师。当时我和我的团队在做静修，进行一些维姆·霍夫呼吸法训练。

No no seeing my life pass before my eyes. No tunnel on the other side. Nothing. You know what's really fucking wild though is that many years later, I was doing this this guy, Brandon Powell, is a brilliant guy who's train top Wim Hof trainer and a trainer of trainers of his guys. And I was doing some retreats with teams of mine, and we're doing some Wim Hof work.

他有一套加速缺氧训练的方法，他说不确定是否真实，但声称能释放体内的DMT，抑制体内的DMT抑制剂。我通过纯呼吸法（没有致幻剂）和他进行了两次这种旅程。两次体验相隔数月。有一次，我体验到我的意识中心就是我受损的椎间盘，通过L4/L5节发出的电信号连接来感知世界。

And he had this methodology of kind of accelerated hypoxic work where that he said I'm not sure if it's true, but he said release DMT in your body, inhibited the DMT inhibitors in your body. And I did these journeys with him twice through pure breath work, no psychedelics. And I experienced these two times months apart. Experienced one time, I experienced the center of my consciousness as where I as as my busted disc. And I experienced the world through like the electrical connections emerging from my from my L four L five.

这非常奇怪。而另一个是我对此唯一的记忆。我不确定这是准确的还是某种幻觉，但我从上方看到了整个溺水经历。我目睹了自己在池底待了二十分钟，然后二十五分钟后浮上来，再到池边的整个过程，我是从上方看到这一切的。但那是在事情发生多年之后，所以我无法解释。

It's very strange. And the other one was the only memory I have of that. And I'm not sure if this is accurate or some kind of illusion, but, I saw the drowning experience from above the whole thing. I watched the twenty minutes that I was on the that I was in the bottom of the pool and then up in twenty five minutes and then on the on the pool deck, and I saw the whole thing from above. But that was, like, years after it happened that so I can't explain that.

当时所有人都在那里吗？是同样的人吗？我不知道。

Were were all the people there? The same people? I don't know.

我对这件事的有意识记忆与实际发生的情况非常模糊。对吧？

I my memory of it consciously from what actually happened is so fuzzy. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为我刚刚死而复生。但然后我从上方看到了它。我想我主要关注的是关于我自己的记忆。嗯。是的。

Because I just died and came back. But but and then I saw I saw it from above. I think I was mostly focused on the memory of of myself. And Mhmm. Yeah.

所以我如今与自己相处的方式就像我已经死过，现在活着，我怀着感恩和承诺生活。这也是我们全家搬到丛林的重要原因。就好像我从那次经历中获得了一种承诺，要尽可能美丽、深刻、真实地生活，不让任何事物溜走。全力以赴。

So I I I relate to myself now like I've I've died and I'm living and I I I live with a sense of gratitude and and, commitment. That's a big part of why we moved to the jungle with my family. It's like, I emerged from that with a commitment to living life as beautifully and deeply and truly as I as I possibly could and to and to, not let anything slip. Just all in.

这不是很迷人吗？有时候，再次，这和失去推动你进入下一个层次是一样的。甚至是在生活中你意识到一切可能瞬间消失的那个时刻

Isn't it fascinating that sometimes it take again, it's the same thing as, like, loss propels you to a next level. Even the moment in life where you realize it all could just go

就那么他妈的快。瞬间。毫无预警。就这么没了。

away like that. So fucking fast. Instantly. No warning. Just gone.

毫无预警。

No no warning.

我做过那么多愚蠢的事情，比如在我从事的这些极限运动中。你知道吗？有很多次我差点在自由潜水中死掉，但那次不一样，老兄。

I've done so many stupid fucking things, like, in these extreme sports I've done. You know? For like, so many times I almost died free diving or but that one was different, man.

是的。因为当时有

Yeah. Because there was

就像，我并不知道那只是一个——而疯狂的是这个技术盲点。我根本不知道关于二氧化碳的这件事。我不知道那一刻我是在冒险。我以为我只是在游泳。

like, I didn't it was just a and the crazy thing was this technical blind spot. I just didn't know this thing about carbon dioxide. I didn't know I was taking a risk in that moment. I thought I was just taking a swim.

你有没有从其他做维姆·霍夫呼吸法的人那里学到什么？之后？还是之前？没有。之前。

Has did you learn from other people who do Wim Hof breathing when they swim? After? Did Before. No. Before.

哦，是的。就像是，

Oh, yeah. It's like,

谁教你这么做的？

who taught you to do this?

没人教。我在陆地上做过一次维姆·霍夫呼吸法，然后我就想，妈的，我要做。现在就他妈的在游泳时做。听起来是个好主意。

Nobody. I did one Wim Hof breathing on land, and I was like, you know, I'll fucking do it. Let's do it fucking on the swim right now. Sounds like a great idea.

我觉得别人这么做过，然后死了。

I think other people have done that and died.

是的。他们确实死了。海军以及大多数死于浅水黑视的人都是训练有素的海豹突击队员，因为他们非常

Yeah. They have. And navy's and most people who die from shallow water blackout are highly trained navy seals because they're very

擅长

good at

抑制呼吸的冲动，但你可能会做得太好，或者你根本感觉不到它。

inhibiting the urge to breathe, but you can get too good at it, or you can just not feel it at all.

海洋是如此迷人的事物。它充满了生机。是的。当你有一段时间没下海后再次进入海洋时，会有种奇妙的感觉。你爬进海里，能感觉到它在周围流动、拉扯，海水的触感截然不同。

The ocean is such a fascinating thing. It's so alive. Yeah. It's a it's a just strange thing when you get in the ocean if you haven't been for a while. You you climb in and you feel it moving around you and pulling and and the water just feels different.

它感觉就像个活物。比如，你潜入水下，看着这个覆盖地球四分之三表面的世界，它是如此充满活力。你会看到冲浪者们被它的魔力吸引，驾驭那股能量、感受它，并因此上瘾，这已成为他们生活的一部分。像莱尔德那样的人，现在还有像你这样的人。我认识很多人，比如乔科，他根本不愿离开圣地亚哥。

It feels like it's a living thing. Like, you're in a you dunk your head under and you look at this world that's three quarters of the surface of the earth, and it's so it's so vibrant. And you see people that are surfers that just get drawn into its spell, and it just becomes a part of their life is to ride that energy and to feel it and and the addiction that they get from it. Guys like Laird, now guys like you. I I know so many people that they like Jocko, he won't leave San Diego.

他甚至不想待在加州。是的。但南圣地亚哥就是他的海洋。他必须靠近海洋。

He doesn't even wanna be in California. Yes. But South San Diego is the ocean for him. He has to be by the ocean.

没错。而且你无法主宰海洋。不行。你必须接纳她。是的。如果你 ego 中有一丝脆弱，她会把你踢得屁滚尿流，直到你融入其中。

Yeah. And and you can't dominate the ocean No. You have to receive her. Yeah. You you just and if you have any brittleness in your ego, she will kick your ass until you just blend.

我知道你赞成优化训练、寻找更快学习的方法。波浪冲浪池，那些像凯利·斯莱特风格的疯狂冲浪池，能让你获得更多练习次数，对吧？对于冲浪来说，确实如此。

I know you're a favor you you're in favor of optimizing training and finding ways to learn things quicker. Would wave surf pools, those crazy ones like Kelly Slater style wave surf pools where they have that would give you, like, way more reps. Right? If you're surfing, for sure.

波浪池彻底改变了冲浪训练，因为对于翼板冲浪，你拥有海洋。嗯。翼板冲浪机会更多。而冲浪在某种程度上相当稀缺，因为你只能在特定类型的浪中冲浪，比如如果你想做一个特定转向，可能两年都遇不到同样的情况。在海洋中无法复制条件。

Wave pools have revolutionized surf training because for foiling you have the ocean. Mhmm. And foiling is much more abundant. In the surf community is quite scarce in some ways because you have to you can only surf in specific kinds of waves and like if you if you're trying to make one turn, you might not see that section again for two years. You can't replicate conditions in the ocean.

但翼板冲浪可以，因为你可以泵动翼板，下压后再浮起，反复操作，或者通过摩托艇拖拽进入特定浪型。所以如果我想练习某个转向，一天能重复四五十次。而在波浪池出现前的冲浪，根本做不到。因此大多数优秀冲浪者，我认为，都是出色的低重复次数学习者。他们不得不如此，因为在海洋中，你没有大量重复练习的机会。

Foiling, you can because you can pump a foil, you can drive it down, let it float back up, and drive it down so you can and you can or you can whip yourself on a behind a jet ski into a certain kind of wave. So if I wanna work on, like, a certain turn, I can get forty, fifty reps in a given day. While surfing pre wave pool, you couldn't at all. So most great surfers, I would my are are brilliant low rep learners. They've been because by necessity, in the ocean, you don't get tons of reps.

对。据我观察，世界上最顶尖的竞技冲浪者非常擅长从一两次练习中学习，就像马塞洛·加西亚在垫子上训练那样。我天生不是个优秀的低重复次数学习者，我需要更多重复。翼板冲浪可以说在技术上比冲浪更复杂，因为它包含了冲浪的一切，还多了具有升力动力学的翼板和尾翼，你可以改变翼形和尾形。

Right. So in my observation, the greatest, like, competitive surfers in the world are excellent at learning from one or two reps, like Marcelo Garcia is on the mats. I'm not I'm not naturally a great lower rep learner. I'm a higher rep learner. Foiling is what one could say it's it's it's more technically complex than surfing because it's everything that surfing is, but also you have a foil which has lift dynamics and a tail, and you can change the foil shape, the tail shape.

如果你将尾翼攻角改变四分之一度，整个感觉都会不同。超级技术性。从很多方面看，有人可能认为它更难。我不是说它难——这些技艺都无限深奥，因为任何细节都可以无限精进。

The the if you change the angle of attack on your tail by a quarter degree, it changes the whole feel of everything. It's super technical. And so many ways, one could argue that it's harder. I wouldn't say not that it's hard. These any of these arts are infinitely deep as because you can refine anything for forever.

但它有更多技术细节要处理，不过也更具可训练性，因为你现在可以在波浪池中复制条件。对冲浪者来说，在波浪池里，你可以重复冲击同一个浪段三四十次。所以我确实认为这非常了不起。但有趣的是，这代大多数冲浪者的训练方式不像国际象棋手或柔术选手那样，因为冲浪是一门低重复次数、无法复制条件的艺术。因此大多数冲浪者的心理构造决定了他们不会像柔术选手那样充分利用波浪池。

But it's it's more technical shit to deal with, but you it's more trainable because you can replicate conditions like you now can in wave pools. Wave pools for surfers now, you can you can hit the same section thirty, forty times. So I do I do think it's an it's incredible. But the interesting thing is that most surfers of this generation aren't they don't train in the same way that chess players do or jujitsu fighters do because it's a low rep art that you do can't replicate conditions in. So surfers aren't most surfers aren't constructed psychologically in a way that they will take advantage of wave pools the way a jujitsu guy would.

这很有趣。就像钻探一样。心理上的钻探。

That's interesting. Like drilling. Like, drill Psychologically.

这很有趣，因为他们习惯于只是接受海洋给予的东西。

That's interesting because they're accustomed to just taking what the ocean gives you.

你不能随便找一个低重复学习者，告诉他们像高重复学习者那样生活。这完全是两码事。对吧？而且对我来说非常有趣的是，冲浪者跨界玩翼板冲浪很有意思，因为很多冲浪者——有些冲浪者会尝试，他们全身心投入，想要接受挑战。

You can't just take a low rep learner and tell them to, like, live like a high rep learner. It's a different fucking thing. Right. Right? And and it's it's very interesting to me that so surfers crossing over to foiling is very interesting because they a lot of surfers some surfers do it and they just they're all in and they they wanna take it on.

世界上很多顶尖冲浪高手都在跨界，但这是不同的生活方式。那些能够跨界的人，是那些能够拥抱高重复训练生活的人。

A lot of the high the best surfers in the world are crossing over, but it's a different lifestyle. The ones who cross over, the ones who can embrace the high rep training life.

那些能够适应的人。是的。是的。冲浪中的低重复训练这件事我从未真正考虑过，但确实有道理。你必须能够优化。

The one who can adapt. Yeah. Yeah. That's the the low rep training thing with surfing, I never really considered, but that does make sense. You have to be able to optimize.

你必须能够利用每一次机会，并且相当快地掌握它。你必须

You have to be able to take advantage of each one of those things and pick it up pretty quickly. You have

必须。尤其是在早期，想想，比如，小时候的学习，然后，你接触到的是海洋总是在运动，总是在变化。但如果你能从一次重复中学习并巩固它，那么——比如在柔术中，你可以说，我今天要练习这个手臂锁40次，就今天下午，40次，在接下来的两周内练习数百次、数千次。对吧？所以你可以获得你需要的尽可能多的重复次数。

to. Especially in the early think about, like, learning as a as a kid, and then, like, you're exposed to that the ocean's always moving, always changing. But if you can, like, learn from one rep and burn it in, then that just well, in jujitsu, for example, you can say, I'm gonna drill this arm bar 40 times today, 40 times, like, this afternoon, hundreds of times, thousands of times over the next two weeks. Right? So you can get as many reps as you need.

嗯。在海洋中就不是这样了。

Mhmm. It's not true in the ocean.

对。是的。这完全有道理。你认为为什么孩子比成年人学得更快？

Right. Yeah. It totally makes sense. Why do you think that children learn quicker than adults?

是的。很好的问题。我认为这很大程度上和‘忘却’有关。对吧？所以我毕生的工作就是忘却，我经常思考忘却，因为高水平学习的很大一部分就是解除阻碍，也就是摆脱那些障碍、自我障碍、我们拥有的错误建构、以及我们在所做的每件事上附加的那些试图控制局面的狗屁东西。

Yeah. Beautiful question. I think it's I think a lot about unlearning. Right? So my life's work is unlearning, and I think a lot about unlearning because so much of what high level learning is is being unblocked, which is getting rid of the blocks, the egoic blocks, the false constructs we have, the fucking bullshit we put on everything we do, trying to control the situation.

我们应该欣然接受孩子们无需忘记某些东西，因为他们一开始就没学过。所以他们是没有束缚的。比如，看我小儿子查理学冲浪的样子真是太美妙了。他就像是在海洋里长大的。

We should just embrace the lack of children don't have to unlearn that. They haven't learned it in the first place. So they're unblocked. Like, my little boy, Charlie, learning how to surf was so beautiful to watch. He just like, he he grew up in the ocean.

他在丛林和海洋中长大，从小就开始游泳、翻滚，我们把翻滚当成游戏。当他第一次站上冲浪板时，我们没有把它技术化。没有告诉他应该怎么做。他可以右脚在前或左脚在前。我们没有强加任何东西给他。

He grew up in the jungle and ocean, and he just, from a young age, was swimming and tumbling, and we made a game of tumbling. And then when he first got on the surfboard, it was like he it wasn't we didn't make it technical. It wasn't like he should telling him what to do. Was like he could be right foot forward or left foot forward. It wasn't we didn't impose things on him.

他就像在冲浪板上跳舞，自己摸索方法，开始做出一些他自己创造的技术动作。那纯粹是玩耍。如果你看那些来冲浪的人，比如从纽约来玩五天的游客，他们装备齐全，装备很棒。有手套、靴子、护膝，全身都包裹着，脸上涂着防晒霜。好像他们身体的任何部分都不打算接触海洋。

He just, like, danced on the board and would find his way, and he started doing things that were very technical that he would just create. It was pure playfulness. Well, if you watch people come to a surf like a surf break who are like New Yorkers who travel down for five days and they've got all this gear, the gear is amazing. They've got like gloves and booties and knee guards and like everything is covered, white face. Everything is just like not a part of their body is designed to touch the ocean.

他们试图远离海洋。他们对所学的一切都想要超级控制。在他们心中一切都很刻板，他们试图控制与海洋的关系。但在海洋中学习的方法不是控制它，而是拥抱它，倾听它，观察它，感受它，让它包裹你。对吧？

They're trying to keep the ocean away. And they're like they wanna be super controlling about everything they learn. They're like everything is so regimented in their minds but they're trying to control their relationship with the ocean. But the way to learn on the ocean is to not control it, to embrace it, to listen listen to it, to observe it, to feel it, to like let it envelop you. Right?

对。

Right.

孩子们就是会玩耍。他们不怕失败。他们会...直到孩子开始害怕出丑。你会看到这种情绪在孩子们九岁、十岁、十一二岁不同年龄段时涌现出来。嗯。

Kids will just play. They're not afraid of failing. They'll they'll just like the moment a kid becomes afraid of looking bad. Like, you see that wash over kids when they're, like, nine, 10, 11, 12, some different ages. Mhmm.

然后他们变得，哦，不想摔倒。不想看起来糟糕。然后就开始变得拘谨了。

And they become, oh, they don't wanna fall. They don't wanna look bad. And then then then that's when they get locked up.

是的。

Yeah.

这种自由——对我来说，作为成年人的灯塔就是发现后意识自由作为学习者的状态。我们如何在没有自我阻碍的情况下学习？对吧？不需要表现得很厉害。所以如果你跨界——比如你是个世界级 striker 然后上柔术垫子被虐。

The freedom of I mean, to me, lot of what, like, the beacon is is as adults is being the postconscious, like, discovering the postconscious freedom as a learner. Like, how can we learn without the egoic blocks? Right? Without having to look good. So if you're crossing over like, if you're a a world class striker and you're getting on the jutsu mats and you're getting your ass kicked.

或者你是厉害的柔术选手，进了MMA馆突然发现那些家伙能把你打趴。或者厉害的冲浪手转玩水翼冲浪。对吧？或者国际象棋高手转练武术。所以你会...或者如果你在练某种玄妙的中国武术像我之前那样，然后参加柔术比赛，可能会有些自负，但你会一直输给所有人。

Or if you're great jutsu fighter and you get onto an MMA gym and suddenly the guys can just beat the shit out of you. Like having or a great surfer switching over to foiling. Right? Or a great chess player moving into the martial arts. So you're fucking or if you're like training in some esoteric, you know, Chinese martial art like I was and then you're moving to the jujitsu match, you might have some ego, but you're just tapping out to everybody all the time.

对吧？能够不受自我障碍影响自由学习，我认为这实际上是文化层面我们最需要培养的重要品质之一。因为我们正生活在一个技术颠覆速度急剧加快的时代。我知道你和特里斯坦·哈里斯等人就此做过很多探索，关于AI给社会带来的影响。这是我多年来重点关注并深耕的领域。我认为我们将生活在一个AI在所有方面都比人类更出色的世界。

Right? And like having the freedom to learn without egoic blocks is and I actually think that culturally this is one of the most important things that we need to cultivate because we're living in a world now where the pace of technological disruption is accelerating so fast. I know you've done a bunch of of explorations on this with with Tristan Harris and others in in terms of what AI is bringing to society. It's been a big focus of mine for many, many years, and it's an area where where I'm working. I think that that we are going to be living in a world where AI is better at everything than we are.

对吧？以国际象棋为例，我成长于象棋与计算机领域交汇的时代。最初我开始下棋时还处于前计算机时代，后来计算机介入其中。起初我非常抗拒并对此抱有浪漫主义想法。记得19岁时我开始开发象棋大师软件，随后十年间建立了自己的教学体系，通过计算机传授象棋的人文精髓。

Right? So if you think about it in the context of chess, I grew up in the world of where chess was crossing over into the computer realm. So computers are first like, I I began playing chess in the pre computer era, computer chess era. Then computers entered, and I initially was very resistant and romantic to it. And I remember at 19, I started developing Chessmaster, this computer chess program, and I developed this academy of mine for the next ten years that followed teaching the human side of chess through computers.

但当他们最初联系我时，我并不愿意参与，因为觉得这会破坏象棋的美感——那种蕴含在不完美中的艺术性。我们那个时代的棋手必须学会与未知共存，培养认知距离的耐受力。可能研究一个棋局三个月都找不到解法。

But when it first they first approached me, didn't want to do it because I I felt like it was gonna disrupt. It was going to kill the beauty of of of human chess, the art of chess, which is so much about imperfection. And then but like chess players when I grew up had to sit in the unknowing in tolerant. They had to have a tolerance of cognitive distance. You might I might study a chess position and go three months without knowing what the solution is.

对吧？我们的心理构造必须能承受长时间——数日、数周、数月甚至数年的认知与情感距离。如今棋手点击按钮就能获得超级计算机的即时解答。这种心理差异及其吸引的不同人群特质很值得深思。

Right? So our psychologies had to be constructed so that we could sit in cognitive and emotional distance for long, long periods of time, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. Now chess players can click on a button and they've got a supercomputer right by their side. We'll tell them the answer instantly. It's interesting to think about how different that is psychologically and the different kinds of people that that draws in.

后来深蓝等超级计算机进入棋坛，AI开始席卷象棋领域。出现了AlphaGo，继而DeepMind推出了AlphaZero。创始人德米斯·哈萨比斯是我儿时的棋友，我们从11岁就是好友，曾深入探讨过他创立的AI公司DeepMind及其开发的AlphaGo与AlphaZero。

But what happened then is that you had Deep Blue entered the game like supercomputers, and then you had the movement of AI entering into chess. And we had AlphaGo and then AlphaZero, which came out of DeepMind. So Demis Hassabis was the developer of DeepMind. He was a child of chess friend of mine. So Demis and I from age 11 on were were good friends and we had dialogue about the birth of DeepMind which was this AI company he began and then he developed AlphaGo and AlphaZero.

说明AlphaZero的颠覆性：它未接受任何人类棋谱训练，仅通过三小时自我对弈就超越了历史上所有人类和计算机棋手。想象你毕生的心血——我算是不错的棋手，而像芒努斯·卡尔森这样的顶尖棋手...

And to give give a feel for what AlphaZero did in chess, Alpha zero was able to, without being taught anything about humans playing chess, no education of, like, the history of human chess playing within three hours of experimentation was stronger than any human or computer in history. So imagine your life's work. Like, you know, I was a pretty good chess player. Right? Like someone like Magnus Carlsen is a much, much stronger chess.

他是世界冠军。加里·卡斯帕罗夫、阿纳托利·卡尔波夫、鲍比·菲舍尔...所有这些传奇冠军。AlphaZero未经教导，仅三小时实验就超越了他们。对吧？

He's a world champion. Gary Kasparov, Anatoly Karpov, Bobby Fischer. I think about people who are world champions. AlphaZero within three hours of experimentation without being taught anything was stronger than them. Right?

当前最强AI引擎等级分高达3700埃洛分。举个例子：我9岁时约1900分，如今人类最强棋手如卡尔森约2800-2850分，而最强AI达到3700分。

So, like, we really need so the strongest AI engine in the world today is rated 3,700 Elo. So to give a sense for what that means, when I was nine years old, my rating was like 1,900 or so. Right? Magnus Carlsen is like the strongest or the, you know, the strongest human players in the world now are rated somewhere about 2,800, twenty eight fifty ish Elo. The strongest AI is 3,700 Elo.

这荒谬的差距意味着：九岁棋手与世界冠军的分差，竟等同于世界冠军与最强AI的分差。我们很难真正理解这背后的含义。象棋界最早亲历了这场变革。听你与专家们的对谈时，我能感受到你们都在努力阐释这些超级智能存在的意义。

So just like the absurdity of the fact, the gap between like a a strong nine year old and the human world champion is the same Elo rep gap as between the world champion and the strongest AI. Wow. It gets so hard for us to really wrap our heads around what that means. That means that everything like, chess players had a front row seat to that happening early. When I listened to some of your dialogues with these guys, and I I I could feel you and them trying to grapple with, like, how to communicate what it means to to have these these insanely powerful intelligences in the world.

想象一下：像象棋这样拥有千年历史的技艺，人们如同练习柔术般钻研——每天训练十小时持续三四十年成为世界顶尖。而某物仅用三小时实验就远超其上。更要命的是，这种现象即将发生在所有领域。

And I think, like, if you can imagine, like, an art like chess having millennia of development, people studying it like you train jujitsu. Right? So imagine people's training ten hours a day for thirty, forty years being the greatest human in the world at it. And then something can come in and within three hours of experimentation be much stronger than them. And imagine that's gonna be in fucking everything.

真难搞，对吧？所以，我们得像孩子一样去学习。我们必须放下对自身水平、知识以及一切事物的自我执念。是的。

Nuts. Right? So, like, we have to be like children in how we learn. We're gonna have to, like, release the egoic relationship that we have to our level, to our knowledge, to everything. One of Yeah.

你知道，伟大的托马斯·库恩的科学革命结构理论，你知道吗？

You know, the great you know, Thomas Kuhn's structure of scientific revolutions?

是的。

Yes.

对。所以，想想看，人类必须克服内心的阻力才能拥抱新范式。假设你是一个牛顿物理学家，对吧？你一生都在研究物理。

Right. So, like, you think about what happens, what the human has to do to the internal resistance we have to overcome to embrace the new paradigm. So let's say you're a Newtonian physicist. Right? You've been studying physics your whole life.

你有终身教职。积累了四五十年的知识。所有人都尊敬你。而现在出现了新东西——量子力学登台了。

You've got tenure. You've got forty, fifty years of knowledge built up. Everyone reveres you. And now there's this new thing. Quantum mechanics enters the picture.

对吧？要拥抱这个新事物，就意味着要对自己和所有人承认，你毕生的心血某种程度上必须放手。它是错的，是过时的。对吧？

Right? Like to embrace this new thing is to realize is to admit to oneself and everybody else that your life's work is kind of you have to release it. It's wrong. It's old. Right?

这个新范式是……但我们个体上会抗拒它。自我。自我。是的。社会层面上也是。对吧？

This new paradigm is but we resist it individually Ego. Ego. We Yeah. And societally. Right?

因为我们会拼命维护自己的概念体系。这是全人类最强大的驱动力之一。对吧？嗯。所以我认为，我们正进入一个世界，那里将有3700、3800 Elo评级的一切事物，在各方面碾压我们。

Because we will fight tooth and nail to maintain our conceptual schemes. That's one of our strongest drivers of all humans. Right? Mhmm. And so I think we're moving into a world now where you're gonna have 37, 3,800 Elo rated everything, kicking our ass at everything.

所以，回到你的问题，在我看来，我们必须变得像孩子一样，重新看待我们与学习的关系。对吧？我们不能……决策。对吧？比如，想想社交媒体。

So we have to become like children, to go back to your question, in my opinion, and how we relate to learning. Right? We can't decision making. Right? Like when, you know, we think about, like, social media.

想象一个3800 Elo评级的网络。想象一百万互联的、3800 Elo评级的超级智能，利用它们能从社交媒体上搜集到的关于你的一切信息来操纵你，去做它或控制它的人想做的任何事。它们能让你做任何事。

Imagine a 3,800 Elo rated network. Imagine net a million networked, 3,800 Elo rated super super intelligences utilizing everything that they can gather about you on social media to manipulate you to do whatever that it wants or whoever is controlling it wants. They can have you do anything.

没错。

Right.

但我们必须承认，相对于人类而言，我们就像蚂蚁一样渺小。对吧？我们必须保持这种谦逊。嗯。

But we have to, like it's so hard for us to admit that we are the ant relative to the human. Right? Like, we are the ant. We have to have that humility. Mhmm.

我认为，作为物种，我们今天面临的最重要问题之一就是：我们该怎么办？

And one of the things that I think that that's the most important question today as that we face as a species is, like, what do we do?

在它发生之前我们不会知道，而我们将变成另一种存在。我们必须承认我们不再是地球上的顶尖智能。我们将面对一种类似于人工生命形式的存在，它在推理、资源获取和逻辑上都远胜于我们。它的技术能力将远超我们，很可能很快就能创造出比自身更优秀的版本。

Well, we won't know until it happens, and we will become a different thing. We will have to admit that we are no longer the apex intelligence on the planet. We will have something that's akin to an artificial life form that's far superior to us in reasoning, access to resources, logic. It'll be far more technically proficient. It'll make far better versions of itself probably pretty quickly.

我们已经看到人工智能在自我复制。这并不是被提示才这么做的。

They've already seen AI's duplicating itself. It's not being prompted to do this.

但你说我们不知道——我认为我们应该当作它已经在发生了。这是一种无能的表现。

But when you say we don't I mean, I would argue we we should operate as if it's already happening. It's in an inability.

所以它确实正在发生，只是还没有完全改变生活。没错。它正在崛起，对吧？即将到来。

So it is happening, but it hasn't completely transformed life yet. Right. It's it's emerging. Right? It's about to.

是的。它是一个神，一个正在崛起的神。如果现在还不是神，五十年后它就会是神。它将与量子计算结合。

It's a yeah. It's a god. It's a god that's emerging. And if it's not a god yet, it'll be a god in fifty years. It just did is it's going to be attached to quantum computing.

它将找到更好的策略来利用能源资源。在一切方面都会比我们强得多。是的。然后问题是，它会被用来操纵我们吗？会被用来控制人口吗？

It's going to figure out ways to implement better strategies as far as utilization of energy resources. It'll be much better at everything than we are. Yeah. And then the question is, will it be used to manipulate us? Will it be used to control populations?

埃隆估计，有80%到90%的可能性它会对整个社会产生极其积极的影响，90%的可能性它会极大改善每个人的生活质量。但还有20%或10%的可能性它不会，反而会禁锢我们。就像10%的可能性是《黑客帝国》那样，你知道吗？90%的可能性是技术驱动的乌托邦。

Will it be Elon says his estimation says there's an 80 to 90% chance it'll have a radically positive impact on society at at large, that 90% likelihood that it'll radically improve the quality of everyone's life. But then there's 20 or 10% that it will not and that will be imprisoned. This is, like, 10% possibility of the matrix. You know? 90% possibility of a technologically inspired utopia.

我我的感受是

My my feeling about

我的意思是，在某些领域，它将会变得极其美妙。就像计算机象棋如何提高了人类象棋选手的水平一样。对吧？而现在AI象棋让棋手们变得更强大了很多。部分原因在于，顶尖棋手之所以杰出，是因为他们擅长知道哪些地方不需要关注。

it is that, I mean, there are places where it's gonna be incredibly it's gonna be beautiful. Like, just how computer chess raised the, the level of of human chess game chess players. Right? And now AI chess has made chess players, much, much stronger. And and part of it is because great chess players are partially great because they have had they're they're excellent at knowing where not to look.

对吧？顶尖棋手实际上不会看更多，而是看更少，但他们关注的是最有效的方向。有趣的是，AI的出现迫使顶尖棋手不得不重新审视他们过去认为不需要关注的领域。换句话说，那些他们被训练不去关注的领域，因为人类无法驾驭那些局面。

Right? Great chess players don't actually look at more. They look at less, but they look in the right most potent directions. And what's fascinating is that AI entering the picture has forced really strong chess players to unlearn where they've been correct to learn not to look. So in other words, areas where they were well trained not to look because humans couldn't play those positions.

现在AI可以处理那些局面了。而且，实际上，那些才是正确的应对方式，是客观上的最优解。但如今，通过与AI学习，人类可以更好地驾驭这些局面。对吧？

AI can now play those positions. And, actually, those are the right positions to play. They're the objectively correct positions to play. But now humans studying with an AI can be much better at playing those positions. Right?

举个例子，我正在参与一个名为Lila Science的迷人项目，它专注于结合尖端科学、世界顶级科学家和先进AI，试图在材料科学和生命科学领域取得重大突破。在我看来，这只有在采用最顶级的安全实践下才能实现。我认为，这需要运行一个比实际科学研究更高级别的AI来负责安全。

And so, like, for example, I'm working on this fascinating project called Lila Science, which is focused on combining cutting edge science, the best scientists in the world, and cutting edge AI to try to have huge breakthroughs in material science and life sciences. And now that can only be done, in my opinion, with just best, best, best in class safety practices. And in my view, like, that involves having a higher level AI running safety than you have running the actual science.

当你提到安全时，你具体指的是什么？

When you say safety, like, what are you what are you referring to?

确保我们不会失控，不会创造出可能造成巨大破坏的东西。我认为AI竞赛的一部分是，人们被自我驱动，存在一种博弈论的竞赛态势。在竞赛中，每个人都拼命向前冲，但如果他们放慢脚步考虑安全，可能会落后。从道德上讲，如果我们参与AI领域，就必须制定负责任的安全实践。

Making sure that we don't do that doesn't go wild, that you that you don't create things that get out there that could be terribly destructive. I think that that the part of the AI race that's happening is that people are driven by ego, and there's an there's a there's like a game theory of a race going on. And when you have a race, everyone just running running as fast as they can, but they're not if they slow down to think about what's safe, they might fall behind in the race. And I I believe, ethically, if we're in the AI scene at all, then we must be developing safety practices that are making it responsible.

这是一个非常合乎逻辑的观点。不幸的是，我们正处于一场竞赛中，这让事情变得复杂。对吧？而且这不仅是在美国国内的竞赛。

That's a very logical perspective. Unfortunately, we are in a race, and that's where it gets weird. Right? And because we're not just in a race in America. Right.

这是一场国际竞赛。输掉竞赛的后果是严重的，类似于输掉曼哈顿计划的后果。是的，不是第一个造出炸弹，不是第一个部署炸弹，这想想真的很疯狂。但我觉得这比那还要严重得多。

We're in a race internationally. And, the consequences of losing the race are grave. It's akin to the consequences of losing the Manhattan Project of Yeah. Not be coming to the bomb the first, not being the first to implement a bomb, which is really crazy to think. But I think it's that on steroids.

我认为这是加强版的曼哈顿计划，因为如果被滥用，它有可能完全禁锢社会。你只需要锁定资源、食物、电力等一切，社会就会完全停滞。如果你能找到方法彻底瘫痪电网，而且现在每辆车都有电脑，大多数新车都至少可以连接WiFi。

I think it's the Manhattan Project on steroids because I think it has the if if used in the wrong way, it has the the possibility of completely imprisoning society. All you'd have to do is lock down resources, food, power, electricity, everything, And you you've put society at a complete halt. If you can figure out a way to completely disable grids and, you know, every car has a computer in it now. Most cars are connected to Wi Fi. It's most new ones have at least an option to connect it.

有人可以通过某种方式连接到你的汽车。这太疯狂了。在手机方面，每个人都完全依赖你的手机。现在你的手机里有人工智能。谁知道如果被黑客入侵会发生什么？

There's a way that someone can connect to your car. And this is this is crazy. In phones, everyone's reliant completely on your phone. There's AI in your phone now. Who knows what what could happen if that got hijacked?

你知道，有个叫罗伯特·爱泼斯坦的人花了很多时间分析核心定制搜索对总统选举、对公众舆论的影响。当你使用谷歌或其他搜索引擎时，你得到的是经过筛选的搜索结果。如果你搜索特定的政治观点、政治立场，你会得到一个往往偏向于编程者意识形态的定制结果。所以如果你用谷歌搜索关于唐纳德·特朗普的内容，他们会把尽可能多的负面信息推到最前面。你可能要翻一页又一页才能找到你想要的内容，但首先映入眼帘的都是负面信息。对于一个中间派或在选举中犹豫不决的人来说，这可能会产生重大影响。他估计高达30%到50%的摇摆选民可能被搜索引擎结果影响，这有点疯狂。

You know, there's a a guy named Robert Epstein who spent a lot of time analyzing what the impact of core curated searches can do to presidential elections, to public opinion on things, and that when you're getting a search where you're using Google or some of these search engines, you're getting curated search results. If you look for specific political opinions, political positions, you will get a curated result that is oftentimes skewed in whatever ideology towards whatever ideology the people that programmed it are are, you know, they're aligned with. So if you Google something about Donald Trump, you will have as many negative responses they can possibly throw to the front of the line. It will take you page after page after page to find what you're looking for, but you'll be confronted immediately with negative stuff. Now if you're a person that's in the middle and maybe a person that's undecided in an electoral process in an electoral race, you can be swayed in a significant manner, and he estimates it's as high as 30 to 50% of the people that are on the fence that are sort of undecided voters can be swayed by search result engines, which is kind of crazy.

而这还只是一个算法。只是他们设计出来的东西。这不像是有意改变叙事来实施他们认为最有利的财务策略，无论是央行数字货币、社会信用评分系统，还是能完全控制行为、将你的行为与银行账户绑定、影响你谋生和旅行能力的东西。这很可怕，因为这些都是人工智能。如果有人找到了最好的人工智能版本，能够突破我们现有的加密、网络和计算机系统边界，完全锁定一切，那我们就完蛋了。

And that's just, you know, an algorithm. That's just something that they've devoured. This is not like a purposeful changing of narratives in order to implement whatever strategy they think would be the best for them financially, whether it's a central bank digital currency or a social credit score system or something where they could completely control behavior and have your behavior locked up to your bank account, locked up to your ability to make a living, your ability to travel. That's spooky stuff because that's all AI. And a if if AI can be if someone figures out the best version of AI that can traverse these boundaries that we have with encryption and with grids and computer systems and just completely lock everything down, we're fucked.

是的。这就是为什么当我听到人们说80%到90%是积极的时候，我觉得他们直接跳到了目的地而没有考虑过程。因为这个过程会涉及太多的混乱、痛苦和动荡。你刚才说的关于网络和其他的一切都是对的。想想十五年前，有多少国家有能力以这种方式造成破坏，只有少数几个。对吧。

Yeah. That's why I don't you know, when I when I hear people say things like that 80 to 90% positive, I feel like they're they're they're jumping to the destination without thinking about the journey to it because the journey to it is gonna involve so much disruption, so much pain, so much chaos. And I think what you just said about grids and everything is true. Mean, you think about about how many people had the ability to disrupt in that way fifteen years ago, a handful of countries. Right.

对吧？而现在，将会有成千上万的个人能够接触到超级程序员。

Right? Now it's gonna be hundreds of thousands or millions of individuals who just have access to super code super coders.

没错。

Right.

对吧？那么当有无数人 armed with 3800 Elo评级的程序员，能够为所欲为时，怎么可能80%到90%是积极的呢？黑客。这简直太疯狂了。

Right? And so how could it be 80 to 90% positive when there is just gonna be limitless humans who have the ability to disrupt armed with 3,800 Elo rated coders that can do anything you want. Right. Hackers. It's just, like, insane.

在有问题的人手中。

In the hands of broken people.

破坏比创造容易得多。是的。对吧？你可以创造几千年，但瞬间就能摧毁它。是的。

It's much easier to destroy than to create. Yeah. Right? You can create for thousands of years, and you destroy it instantly. Yep.

对吧？所以只需要一次极其破坏性的行为或少数几次，就能压倒所有积极的东西。我不相信那个80%、90%的说法是正确的。我认为在某些领域，比如科学，我们可以轻松创造出对气候产生巨大积极影响的材料。我们可以在生命科学领域取得突破，消除癌症、消除疾病，让人类寿命延长到数百年。

Right? So it only takes one terribly destructive act or a handful of them to overcome all the positive. I I don't believe that that eighty, ninety percent thing is is right. I think that there are areas like science where we could easily create materials that could have a massively positive impact on the climate. We could have life science breakthroughs that eliminate cancer, eliminate diseases, make the human lifespan hundreds of years.

我认为那些事情可能会发生，这很棒。我也认为我们可能被操纵去做越来越具破坏性的事情，而且可能会发生像电网瘫痪这样的可怕事件。你知道，多年前在间谍领域有一位非常聪明的人对我说过，他是知情人士。他说，乔什，你没意识到的是，一个强大的AI——这是多年前的事了——凭借社交媒体公司掌握的关于你的信息，可以在两周内轻易说服99%的美国人搬到阿拉斯加或南极洲或任何地方。轻而易举。

I think those things could happen, which is great. I also think that we could be manipulated into doing increasingly destructive things, And we could have horrific things happen like like the grid. You know, there's a guy there's a guy who was very brilliant in the espionage world years ago who said to me he said to me, you know, he he's someone who would know. And he said, you know, Josh, what you don't realize is a strong AI, and this was years ago, armed with the information that the social media companies have about you, could convince ninety nine percent of Americans to move to Alaska or Antarctica or anywhere within two weeks easily. Easily.

我的意思是，就像我们相对于人类只是蚂蚁一样，要保持这种谦卑真的很难。对吧？如果一个拥有3800 Elo评分——我只是打个比方——的智能体试图操纵你，并且它掌握了一切信息。我是说，人类仅凭社交媒体上的信息就能操纵你。

I mean, just just like it's it's so hard to have the humility that we are the ant relative to the human. Yeah. Right? If you have a 3,800 Elo, I'm just using that, rated intelligence trying to manipulate you and it's armed with everything. I mean, humans can manipulate you with what's on social media.

是啊，用着英国口音和电视购物节目的套路。

Yeah. With a British accent and infomercial.

没错。毫无难度。稍微露点大腿，你就沦陷了。是的。

Yeah. No problem. Show some leg. You're gone. Yeah.

我的意思是，我们真的很难保持那种真正的谦卑，意识到自己是可被操纵的。而超级智能已经存在，目前还有人类在控制它，但也许这种控制终将结束。所以我个人觉得，每个人都应该彻底远离社交媒体。我认为这是最重要的事情，因为我们输入的一切信息——我从未用过社交媒体。我很早就做出了这个决定。

I mean, it's just so hard to have the so we have to have the, like, the real humility that we are manipulatable. And a superintelligence, which is out there, and there are humans controlling the superintelligence so far, maybe that will end. So I I personally feel I know everyone should get the fuck off social media. I just think it's like, I I think that's the most important thing because everything that we're feeding in to I've never been on social media. I made that decision a long time ago.

真的吗？你什么时候决定的？

Really? When did you make it?

我从未用过。我决定了。对吧？最早的时候，我记得当Myspace出现时

I was never on it. I made it. Right? When first, I remember when, like, Myspace came

的时候，你当时是怎么想的？

out, like What did you what did you think at the time?

我说，去他妈的。真的吗？是的。我没有——我当时就觉得不对劲。感觉那是我不想参与的东西。

I said, fuck that. Really? Yeah. I didn't I didn't it felt off to me. It felt like something I didn't wanna be involved with.

我并不是说我当时有先见之明预见到了一切，但我从未——有些人曾在社交媒体上冒充我，但我从未使用过任何形式的社交媒体。而且

I I didn't not I'm not saying that I was prescient and I saw everything that would happen, but I never there was some people who were impersonating me on social media and but I was never on any form of social media. And and

那很好啊。

Good for you.

是啊。我是说除了TikTok我什么平台都用。TikTok真是完蛋了。太搞笑了。

Yeah. I I mean I'm on everything but TikTok. TikTok. TikTok is fucked. It's hilarious.

我来这里的飞机上，一边听着你和特里斯坦·哈里斯的对话，旁边那哥们就在刷TikTok。一边听着这里的对话，一边看着他就像

I was I was when I was flying here, I was listening to your your conversation with Tristan Harris while the dude next to me was was scrolling TikTok on the plane. And it was amazing listening to this dialogue here and watching him just like

亲眼目睹这一切发生。整整一个

Watching it happen. An hour and a

半小时不停。就像，刷，刷。太不可思议了。我从没见过有人真的这么干。

half straight. It's like, boom. Boom. It was incredible. I've never actually seen someone fucking do that.

这是我这辈子见过最无脑的事情。真是

It was the most brainless thing I've ever seen in my life. It's

太无脑了。太残忍了。这么让人上瘾。

so brainless. It's brutal. So addictive.

而且还这么操控人心。它就能这样，能引导你去任何地方，但为什么我们不...有件事我有点不同意你的观点，你在谈话中说你觉得人类除非被迫，否则不会采取行动。但我不确定，老兄。我在想，万一我们他妈突然醒悟了，主动脱离这个能被他人或AI随意操控的东西呢？为什么我们不

And so manipulative. Like, it can just just just like, it can guide you to anything you but why don't we there's one thing I kinda disagreed with you on this talk where where you you were saying that you just don't think that humans are going to do anything about it until we're we're forced to. But I I don't know, man. I think that what if we just wake the fuck up and take ourselves off of this thing that can be used to steer us anywhere this other humans or AI wants to steer us. Like, why don't

主动远离它？嗯，这是个很理性的观点。

we just remove ourselves from it? Well, that's a very rational perspective.

咱们就他妈这么干吧。大多

Let's just fucking do it Most

人不是理性的。

people aren't rational.

但为什么我们不帮助人们变得理性，而只是——你他妈必须改变

But why don't we help people be rational and just just You have to fucking change

他们与生活互动的整个方式，这是一个很高的要求。这并不像逻辑上认为社交媒体对你有害那么简单，然后我就不用了。你打开短视频、滑动浏览、看到人们被击倒、车祸和大胸，所获得的那一点点多巴胺刺激，不管出于什么原因，都比拥有自主权的想法更具吸引力。还有，你知道，完全摆脱人人都上瘾的东西——点赞、互动和获得愤怒——的能力。算法一遍又一遍地给你看那些让你愤怒的东西。

the the whole way they interface with life, and that's a big ask. It's not as simple as, logically, social media is bad for you. I'll stay off. The the small dopamine hit that you get from opening up reels, just scrolling through and seeing people get knocked out and car accidents and big boobs, that is, for whatever reason, much more compelling than the idea of possessing autonomy And the the idea of, you know, having the ability to completely remove yourself from the thing that everyone's addicted to, which is likes and engagement and and getting an outrage. The algorithm showing you things over and over again that outrage you.

这对人们来说太有吸引力了，我们如此厌恶无聊，以至于在任何无事可做的时刻，你都会拿起手机开始滑动。在任何时候，你的脑子里都会被塞进无意义的东西。

It's it's so compelling to people, we're so averse to being bored that at any time when nothing's going on, you pick up your phone, you start scrolling. At any time, you just get nonsense just fed into your head at any time.

但想想，比如，有人第一次体验柔术的时候。对吧？他们踏上垫子，然后他们意识到自己可能有些自负。他们是个运动员，也许练过一些站立格斗。

But think about, like, the first time that somebody experiences jujitsu. Right? They get on the mats, and they're and they realize they they might have some hubris. They're an athlete. Maybe they've done some stand up.

也许没有。他们是个足球运动员之类的。然后他们突然像离水的鱼一样，在沙滩上扑腾。对吧？

Maybe they haven't. They're a football player or whatever. And they suddenly are like a fish out of water. They're flopping on the sand. Right?

他们的关节被锁住，被勒到窒息。他们体验到的那种谦卑。对吧？是的。我认为我们需要在文化上体验那种谦卑，以免为时已晚，因为这说明我们有多么容易被操纵。

They're and their joints are being popped, and they're being choked out. They and the humility that they experience. Right? Yeah. Like, I think we need to culturally experience that humility before it's too late because that's what that's how manipulatable we are.

是的。就像一个第一次实战的格斗者，在柔术垫上面对一个不错的 fighter，一个不错的 grappler。就像那样，我们在一个3800 Elo（这是存在的）面前是多么无助。嗯。它会比30强。

Yeah. Just how, like, a first date grappler is on the on the jujitsu mats against a decent fighter, a decent grappler. Like, that's how helpless we are next to a 3,800 Elo, which exists. Mhmm. It'll be stronger than 30.

我是说那个词现在就是。

I'm saying that that word is now.

对。

Right.

明天这玩意儿会他妈比现在强得多。

It'll be much the fuck stronger than that tomorrow.

一旦它与量子计算结合，简直会成为神。是的。嘿。我们即将经历我认为人类文明史上最诡异的转型。要知道，这是电力乘以十亿倍的效果。

Once it's attached to quantum computing, it literally would be a god. Yeah. Hey. We're we're about to experience the most bizarre transition that I think any human civilization has ever experienced. And, you know, it's it's electricity times a billion.

这是计算机乘以十亿倍的效果。这是完全不同的东西，我们必须适应它。我们不得不适应。我们必须想办法解决。只是那会是什么样子？

It's, you know, computers times a billion. It's it's something completely different, and we're gonna adapt to it. We're going to have to. We're gonna have to figure it out. It's just what will that be like?

当我们适应之后，生活会变成什么样？那才是事情开始变得奇怪的时候。我认为他所说的生活体验80%到90%的提升，指的是生活质量体验。我认为他指的是资源分配会变得高效得多。向第三世界国家提供水和医疗服务会容易得多。

What will life be like when we adapt to it? That's what things that's when things are gonna get strange. I think the 80 to 90% improvement of of life experience I think what he's talking about quality of life experience. I think what he's talking about is it'll make allocation of resources much more efficient. It'll be much easier to get water and and health services to third world countries.

维持各地电力供应会容易得多。人们获得卫生设施、药品这类东西也会容易得多。然后饥饿、贫困、营养等问题都可能以更高效、更有效的方式解决。但问题在于控制。是的。

It'll be much easier to to keep power on in places. It'll be much easier for people to get sanitation, medicine, things along those lines. And then starving, poverty, nutrition, all those things could probably worked out in a far more efficient and a far more effective way. Then the problem is control. Yeah.

这就是问题所在。问题在于人类。每一个政府，每一个领导职位，所有一切都涉及控制。CEO控制公司。总统控制国家。

That's the problem. The problem is human beings. Every single government, every single leadership position, every everything involves control. The CEO controls the company. The president controls the country.

有国会。有参议员。控制。控制。控制。

There's congress. There's senators. Control. Control. Control.

一切都是控制，然后从中获得经济利益。这才是可怕的地方，因为正如我们在谷歌AI灾难中看到的，实际编程这东西的人——当他们编程让AI展示纳粹图像时，它给你看的是多元文化、多种族、你知道的，多民族的纳粹，而不是真正的右翼。就像，这是什么？他们不会。是脸上他妈有决斗疤痕、看起来凶狠吓人的德国佬。

Everything is control and and then financial benefit from that control. That's where it gets scary because whoever is actually programming this thing as we've seen with Google's AI disaster, when they program their AI to show you images of Nazis and it showed you multicultural, multiethnic, you know, multiracial Nazis, like, instead of actual Right. Like, what is it? They'll no. Nazis with fucking dueling scars on their face, hard looking scary German dudes.

那才是纳粹。这些不是纳粹。这是一场狂热梦境。这是你把DEI（多元化、公平、包容）的胡言乱语注入对过去的人工版本中产生的疯狂。

That's Nazis. These are not Nazis. This is a fever dream. This is some nuttiness that you've you've put your DEI nonsense into an artificial version of what the past is. That's crazy.

你不能那样做。因为如果你开始对其他一切也这样做，那么我们就会通过我们目前掌握的最强大的智能，得到一个扭曲的现实版本，那太疯狂了。

You can't do that. Because if you start doing that with everything else, then we have a distorted version of reality itself by the most potent intelligence that we currently have at our disposal, and that's nuts.

问题在于我们该做什么？作为个人，在社会层面，我知道你正在与许多对社会有见解的人进行对话，而我也在从个人层面思考这个问题。这就像你关于儿童和学习的问题一样。嗯，对吧？

The question is what should we do? And, like, as individuals, societally, I mean, I know you're you're having dialogue with people who have a lot of ideas about the society, and I'm thinking about it on the individual level, as well. And it goes like your question about children and learning. Mhmm. Right?

我觉得拥有初学者之心有某种特别之处。嗯。这非常令人解放。

I I feel that there's something about having that beginner's mind Mhmm. Which is so liberating.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？成年人很难放下对自我、习惯以及支撑身份的事物的执着。但我认为我们可以做的是，以初学者之心去思考、学习和做决策的艺术。面向即将到来的世界，就像滑冰时要滑向冰球将要去的地方，而不是它曾经或过去所在的位置。对吧？

Right? And it's very difficult for adults to release their egoic addiction to what they do, to their habits, right, to what props up their identity. But I think that what we could do is take on thinking, take on learning, take on the art of decision making, for example, with a beginner's mind. For the world that's coming, like, you think about skating to where the puck is go is going, not to where it was or where it used to be. Right?

那么，在一两年或三年后的世界里，做一个人意味着什么？那时会有超级智能可以操纵我们，许多工作岗位会消失。

So what does it mean to be a human in the world that we're a year or two or three away from? Right? Where there's a superintelligence out there that can manipulate us, where where so many jobs are lost.

好吧，让我把这个问题抛给你。你认为世界会变成什么样子？

Well, let me throw that at you. What do you think the world will look like?

我认为会是什么样子？是的。我认为我们将会有激动人心的发现，人类无法解决的问题将会被解决。因此，会有惊人的技术创新让一切变得更加便利。

What do I think it will look like? Yeah. I think that we're going to have thrillingly exciting discoveries being made. We're gonna have problems solved that we are, as humans, unable to solve. And so there'll be, like, amazing technological innovations that are gonna make things much more convenient.

我认为会有重大的生命科学突破，重大的材料科学突破。我认为会有一场激烈的竞争，争夺控制权，我完全同意你的观点。而且我认为随着这一切展开，情况会变得非常混乱。难以置信数量的工作岗位将会消失，人们会失业。

I think there'll be huge life science breakthroughs. I think there'll be huge material science breakthroughs. I think there will be wild competition for who controls it, and I completely agree with you about that. And I think that it as that unfolds, it's gonna be really messy. I think that there's going to be, like, unbelievable amounts of jobs are gonna be lost, and then people are gonna not have jobs.

那他们他妈的要做什么？这就是我描述的一部分。人们需要，对吧，训练自己重塑自我的能力。对吧？

So what the fuck are they gonna do? So this is part of what I'm describing. People need to Right. Train at the ability to recreate themselves. Right?

就像有些人可以从一种艺术转向另一种，而有些人不能。我认为我们必须训练重新发现的艺术。对吧？所以我认为我们作为一个物种，将面临考验，考验我们重塑身份、生活在动态变化中并拥抱新范式的能力。范式他妈的无时无刻不在变化。

Like like, how some people can move from one art to another and others can't. I think we have to train at the art of rediscovery. Right? So I think we're going to be tested as a species in our ability to to recreate our identities and to live in a state of dynamic flux of embracing new paradigms. Paradigms are gonna be shifting all the fucking time.

在我们余下的人生中，变革的步伐将会急剧加速。我们整个余生，对吧？既然变革步伐在加快，那么当情况变化时，我们就需要具备重塑自我的能力。我们都知道，就像你不能一直纠结于一分钟前打斗中那个重要的问题。

The pace of change is going to be radically accelerating for the rest of our lives. The rest of our lives. Right? So if that pace of change is accelerating, then we need to have the ability to recreate ourselves as things shift. We we all know that, like, you you can't be solving the problem that was important, like, in a fight a minute ago.

没错。

Right.

对吧？这他妈的和我们现在面临的问题完全不同。

Right? It's a different fucking problem than we have right now.

没错。

Right.

或者一小时前、十分钟前甚至一分钟前的棋局问题。作为一个社会，我们需要解决当前和即将出现的问题，而不是那些十年前我们情感上沉迷的旧问题。但人类他妈的就是做不到这一点。

Or in a chess game an hour ago or ten minutes ago or one minute ago. Right? As a society, we need to be solving the problems that are and that are coming, the ones that were ten years ago that we're emotionally addicted to. Right. But humans don't fucking do that.

对吧？我们往往固守自己的观念和既往决策，然后试图为其辩护。我们紧抓自己的身份认同。我认为身份认同这个问题确实至关重要，无论它关联的是信仰体系还是你做出的某个决定。

Right. Right? We we are we tend to cling to our ideas, the decisions we made, then we try to justify our ideas. We cling to our identities. I mean, I I think that this question of identity is a is a really important one, whether it relates to a belief system, a decision you've made.

就像人类拼死维护自己认知框架的这种倾向——比如有人可能被形容为'成功恐惧症'，对吧？在我看来，所谓成功恐惧症就是：为什么人们在即将获得渴望的突破时反而自我破坏？我认为原因在于，如果他们的认知框架、他们的身份认同是'非成功者'，那么取得成功比放弃旧身份更令人恐惧。

Like, this idea of humans fighting tooth and nail to maintain our conceptual schemes is something like, you think about someone who has, like, what what one might frame as, like, a fear of success. Right? Like, that's a term people use, fear of success. The way I understand fear of success is that why do people undermine themselves when they are close to something that they want, right, to a breakthrough that they earn. I think the reason is because if their conceptual scheme, if their identity is in not being the person who wins the big game, right, or who succeeds, it is more terrifying to succeed than it is to give up that old identity.

这是人类心理的核心驱动力。在竞争环境中，我们大量运用这种心理——给人植入特定身份认同、心理暗示、微小自我瘾癖，然后利用思维僵化于这些定式的弱点，因为它缺乏动态适应性。

That's a core driver of human psychology. Right? In competition, that's a lot of what we do. Right? We plant identities in people, tells in people, little egoic addictions in people, and then we exploit the mind being stuck there because it's not dynamic.

思维无法持续演进。就像罗伯特·波西格——我人生中最重要的一位哲学家，他写了《禅与摩托车维修艺术》。你读过吗？读过那本书吗？

It can't keep on moving. Right? Like Robert Persig, my favorite the most important philosopher in my life, Robert Persig wrote Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. Have you read? Have you read that book?

我读过。太棒了。他对我的人生影响深远。关于他有个有趣的故事可以分享，关于他提出的'动态质量'理念。

I did. Awesome. He was a really important person in my life. I could tell you an interesting story about him. His idea of dynamic quality.

对吧？我认为我们必须生活在动态质量而非静态质量的状态中。对吧？就像，你想想货运列车前端在时空中飞驰，与坐在餐车里的对比。我们想要被绑在货运列车的前端，随着现实不断展开并适应新的现实，我认为我们需要构建一种能够让我们做到这一点的生活方式。

Right? I think we have to live in a state of dynamic quality, not static quality. Right? Like, you think about the front of the freight train surging through space time versus sitting in the restaurant car. Like, we wanna be strapped to the front of the freight train as reality is unfolding and adapting to the new realities, and I think we need to build the the way of life that allows us to to do that.

对。

Right.

对吧？关于那种生活方式是什么样子，我有很多想法。我认为如果我们不这样做，那么当彗星来袭时，我们就会像他妈的世界里的恐龙一样，会被炸得粉身碎骨。所以我们需要创造重塑自我、发挥创造力和适应变化的能力。

Right? And I have lot of ideas about what that way of life looks like. I think if we don't do that, then we're gonna be dinosaurs in a fucking world with the comet coming, and it's gonna blow us the fuck up. So we need to create the ability to to reinvent ourselves, to be creative, to adapt.

那么你认为所有失业的人会怎么样？因为大多数研究这个问题的人相信，某种形式的全民基本收入是不可避免且必要的。我对此在心理上感到担忧，因为我担心人们会依赖国家的支票，失去自主权，失去个人价值感。你知道，我认为人们通过他们所做的事情来定义自己。某人是个很棒的机械师，他们与带来修车的人建立了良好的关系，他们享受能够修理东西和帮助别人。

So what do you think happens with all these people that lose their jobs? Because most people believe that some form of universal basic income people who study this believe that some form of universal basic income is inevitable and mess necessary. I worry about that psychologically because I worry about people being dependent upon checks from the state and not having agency and not having a personal sense of worth. You know, I think people identify with what they do. Someone's a great mechanic, and they have a great relationship with the people that bring their cars to them, and they they enjoy being able to fix things and help people.

他们以此自居。这是他们身份的一部分。他们是修理汽车、从事汽车工作的人。如果这一切消失了，现在他们突然只拿到一张支票，他们是谁？

They they identify with this. This is a part of who they are. They're a person who fixes cars and works on cars. If that's gone and now all of sudden they just have a check, who are they?

当男人们无事可做时，他们会做什么？

What do dudes do when they got when they have nothing to do?

嗯，这取决于具体的人。你知道？有些人学习新东西。有些人会感到兴奋，也有些人会以非常积极的方式利用它。如果政府提供一种真正的生活工资，让你真的不再需要担心住房，不再需要担心你的——我的意思是，我认为如果你是一个有抱负的人，那将会非常棒。

Well, it depends on the dude. You know? Some people learn new things. Some people get excited, and some people there's gonna be people that take advantage of it in a very positive way. If there's a there's, like, a a, like, a real living wage that you get from the government where you really don't have to worry about your housing anymore, you don't have to worry about your I mean, I think that would be if you were an ambitious person, that would be amazing.

这样你就可以完全投入到你热爱的事情上，无论那是什么，并真正深入其中，让它成为你生活的焦点。我们已经习惯于相信生存本身就是主要的驱动力。食物和住所是这个智慧物种——人类——的主要驱动力。但我的一部分在想，为什么？嗯。

So then you could dedicate yourself entirely to what you love, whatever that thing is, and just really dive into that and let that become your focus in life. And we're we're accustomed to believing that survival itself is the the primary driving force. Food and shelter is the primary driving force for this intelligent species of human beings. But part of me says, why? Mhmm.

为什么会这样？为什么那必须是你的驱动力？因为如果我们拥有无限的资源——假设在人工智能正确实施的情况下我们将会拥有——在你不必担心饥饿、不必担心住所的意义上，我们拥有无限的资源。你可能会希望人们那时会去追求他们的梦想，但有些人他妈的根本就没有梦想。有些人，他们带着僵化的心态和非常有限的视角在这条人生道路上走得太远，现在他们被迫改变。

Why is that? Why does that have to be your driving force? Because shouldn't if we have unlimited resources, which assumingly will assumingly, we will with AI if it's implemented correctly, We have unlimited resources in terms of your ability to never worry about being hungry, never worry about shelter. You would hope that what people would do then is pursue their dreams, but some people don't have fucking dreams. Some people, they've gone too far down this journey of life with a rigid mindset and a very limited perspective, and now they're forced to change.

很多人会改变，但很多人不会。这就是事情变得奇怪的地方，因为那时你会有一个整个的社会阶层，一大片人类，他们沉迷于TikTok，现在拿着支票，没有爱好或兴趣，靠垃圾食品生活，他们迷失了。是的。而且他们很可能被灌输、被操纵，认为有人该为此负责，认为这些人需要被扳倒和 shut down。我们需要回归我们旧的生活方式。

And many will change, but many will not. And that's where it gets weird because then you have a whole entire class of society, an enormous swath of human beings that are addicted to TikTok, that now get checks, have no hobbies or interests, live off garbage food, and they're lost. Yeah. And they're being told, probably, they're being manipulated that someone's responsible for this, that these people need to be taken down and shut down. We we need to return to our old way of life.

你带来了巨大的动荡潜力。嗯，我觉得，就像是，

You give enormous potential for for unrest. Well, I think that, like,

在我过去十年左右与AI乐观主义者们的对话中，他们总是直接跳到乌托邦式的未来，对吧？那里就像是富足之地，不再有资源稀缺。一切都很美好。人们有能力学习艺术、诗歌和歌剧，对吧？他们不再需要工作，不再需要苦苦挣扎。

I've in dialogue that I've had over the past ten years or so with people who are AI optimists, there's this jump to the utopian future, right, where where every like, land of abundance, no more resource scarcity. Everything is beautiful. People have the ability to study art and poetry and opera and right? They don't need to work anymore. They don't need to be grinding anymore.

他们可以思考哲学，等等等等。这就是他们的论点。就好像默认那会是一个积极的终点。我不太确定。我认为我们体内还流淌着一些我们不愿表达的其他能量，但我们就假设那样会很棒吧。

They can think about philosophy, etcetera, etcetera. That's the argument. That's just, like, assume that that would be a positive end. I'm not so sure. I think that we have some other energies flowing through us that we won't wanna express, but let's just, like, say that that would be great.

问题在于如何到达那里。对吧？所以在国际象棋中，战略和战术之间总是存在这种有趣的动态关系。对吧？我们需要解放自己，以便能够进行战略思考，提前规划，比如理想的去处是什么，但我们也必须把战术做对，把数学算对才能到达那里。

The problem is getting there. Right? So in the in in chess, there's this interesting dynamic between strategy and tactics all the time. Right? We need to liberate ourselves from to to be strategic and to think ahead, like, about what would be the ideal place to go, but then we also have to get the tactics right, the math right to get there.

在我们通往战略梦想的道路上，我们不能随便牺牲皇后、主教或车。对吧？我们需要将执行与战略梦想结合起来。因为如果我们过多地纠结于战术，往往就无法看清我们想要利用的长期计划。对吧？

We can't just hang our queen or hang our bishop or hang our rook on the path to our strategic dream. Right? We need to integrate execution with strategic dreaming. Because often if we're thinking too much tactically, we can't see the long term plan we wanna we want to to to utilize. Right?

就像，我们想要迈向的最终结果。所以当我思考AI的这条道路时，我认为在通往资源丰富和乌托邦的途中将会充满巨大的动荡。即使那是一个积极的地方，我认为通往那里的道路也会非常混乱。是的。但为了让我们能够驾驭这条路，现在对我来说问题是，作为个体，作为一个物种，我们应该做什么才能让我们驾驭那条道路？

Like, the the end result we wanna move toward. And and so when I think about this path of AI, I think there's gonna be so much disruption along the way to that place of resource abundance and utopia. Even if that was a positive place, I think it's gonna be really messy path to get there. Yeah. But for us to navigate the path, the question to me now is what do what should we be doing as individuals, as a species in order to allow us to navigate that path?

嗯，我认为，如果普遍基本收入变得无处不在，我们肯定需要某种指导。我们肯定需要一些东西来引导人们获得存在感和目标感。就像，你必须给人们一些东西。

Well, I think certain people certainly if universal income becomes ubiquitous, we're certainly gonna need some sort of guidance. We're we're certainly gonna need some something that guides people towards a feeling of relevancy, towards a feeling of purpose. Like, you gotta you gotta give people something.

训练是一件美好的

Training is a beautiful

事情。任何形式的训练。任何你在学习东西的事情。但是，这又回到了舒适度的问题。你和我的人生道路非常相似，我们都追求许多人所认为的不舒服和困难的事情。

thing to do. Any any kind of training. Anything where you're learning something. But, again, it comes to this comfort thing. You and I have very similar paths in life and that we've sought things that are many people find uncomfortable and difficult.

我认为不舒服和困难的事情，以及初学者的心态和学习者的心态，都具有巨大的价值，因为通过深入学习某件事，你能更了解一切。我我就是这样度过我的一生的，你也是。有很多人认同这些想法，他们也这样生活，并且感到兴奋。但也有很多人不是这样。而那些正是我真正担心的人。

And I think there's great value in uncomfortable and difficult things and in the beginner's mindset and the learner's mindset because there's just you learn more about everything by learning about something. And I I I've lived my life like that and so have you. And there's many people out there that resonate with these ideas, and they they also live their life like that, and they get excited. But there's many people that don't. And the those are the people that I really worry about.

那些只想要一份好工作的人，这本身没什么错。想要一份好工作、能够养家糊口、有一个自己喜欢的工作环境、每天能开心地去上班，这些都无可厚非。但当这一切被剥夺，人们不得不重新构建与现实互动的方式时，就出现了一种与政府之间诡异的关系——政府现在成了你的供养者。这不再只是民有、民治，也不再代表人民。

The people that just want a good job where there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with wanting a good job and being able to take care of your family and having a place where you enjoy working and being able to go there every day. And when that's taken away from people and they have to kind of restructure the entire way they interface with reality, and then there's this bizarre connection with the government now where the government the government is now your provider. It's not just for the people by the people. It's not, you know, representative of the people.

它现在成了你的供养者，这是一种非常奇怪的关系。我们在福利国家中能看到这种情况，我认为社会保障网非常重要。如果我们想要成为一个有同情心的社会，就需要能够照顾那些处境不佳的人，因为人生很大程度上关乎运气。有些人会遭遇极其不幸的情况，但他们身上蕴藏着巨大潜力。如果得到帮助，这些人就能实现潜力，我认为这也是事实。

It's now your provider, which is a very strange relationship to have. And, you know, we see it in welfare states and, you know, which I think social safety nets are very important. I think if we're we're gonna be a compassionate society, we need to be able to take care of people that aren't doing well because a lot of life is about fortune. And sometimes people run into horribly unfortunate situations, and there's massive potential in those people. And those people can realize that potential if they're helped, and I think that's real too.

但我确实认为，当国家负责你所有的食物、金钱、资源和住房时，会产生某种心理影响——突然之间，你是谁？如果你不是那种主动寻求挑战的人，而你已经45或47岁左右，遭遇这种情况，你会感到迷失。像这样的人会有很多。纵观历史，艰难时期对那些没有准备的人总是非常残酷。

But I do think there's a certain psychological aspect to having the state take care of all your food and money and resources and and and housing that all of a sudden, who are you? And what what do you do to give yourself meaning if you're not the type of person that seeks out difficult things and you're 45 or 47 years old or whatever you are, and this is happening to you. Like and you you feel lost. Like, there's gonna be a lot of people like that. And throughout history, the times terrible times have been very cruel to people who weren't prepared.

是啊。

Yeah.

我几乎像担心智力饥荒一样担心这个问题，就像一种心理饥荒——人们将被剥夺他们赖以立足的东西，比如他们的身份、他们是谁、这意味着什么、他们的目标感，这些都将被夺走。这让我害怕极了，尤其当我看到那么多人沉迷毒品，那么多人沉迷各种奇怪的生活方式选择，只为了获得一些多巴胺、一些刺激，或者任何能让他们感觉自己还活着的东西。扎根于某种东西的力量是如此强大——

And, you know, I worry about it almost like an intellectual famine, you know, like a psychological famine that people will be deprived of the thing that they have rested their hat upon, like their identity, who they are, what what it means, their their sense of purpose, that it'll be pulled away from them. That scares the shit out of me, especially when I know how many people get addicted to drugs and how many people get addicted to all sorts of weird lifestyle choices to provide them with some dopamine or some rush or some just something that makes them feel like they're alive. There's something so powerful about being grounded in

而扎根的一种途径就是沉浸于一门技艺，比如柔术或国际象棋。如果你在柔术垫上过度伸展手臂被锁臂，你不会说‘这不是我的错，是他的错’——如果你这么说，你就他妈的不会进步，只能再次上场。但只有承担起自己的责任，你才能变得更好。

and and a path to being grounded is being immersed in an art, like, for example, like jiu jitsu or or chess where if you like, if if you're on the jiu jitsu mats and and you overextend your arm and you get arm barred, like, you're not gonna say that's not my fault. That was his fault or, like, that's you then you just don't fucking get better and you get on board again. Right. But you only get better by taking your shit on.

对。

Right.

对吧？或者如果你是棋手，犯了错误输了棋，那些说‘这不是我的错’的人，他们他妈的很快就会被淘汰。他们只会被碾压。就像其他人的比赛已经继续进行，而他们却不在赛场了。如果你想想一个社群，比如格斗者的社群，我们可以把柔术看作一种愿景。

Right? Or if you're a chess player and you make a mistake and you lose, you you you if the people who say that's not my fault, don't they fucking they're irrelevant very, very quickly. They just get blazed by. And they they're just like everyone else's race has passed, and they're not in the race anymore. And if you're if you think about a community, for example, of of fighters, let's think about jujitsu as as like a vision.

当人们深入一门技艺时，区分他们的因素之一就是是否愿意将挑战自我作为一种生活方式，是否渴望暴露自己的弱点。想想一个道场，观察那些打了四五轮实战的人总是很有趣：他们是找蓝带休息，还是找那个240磅的壮汉痛扁自己，或是找高水平棕带 exploitation，或是找黑带暴揍自己？

Like the one of the things that separates people as they get deeper into an art is whether they wanna take themselves on as a way of life, whether they're hungry to have their weaknesses revealed. Right? You think about about a school where, like, somebody like, you can I always found it interesting to watch people when they're four or five rounds into sparring? Like, do they look for the blue belt to rest with, or do they look for the, like, like, 240 pound fucking bruiser to beat the shit of them or the high level brown belt to exploit them or the black belt to, like, kick their ass. Right?

他们在找谁？那个有前途的紫带、年轻的竞争者，他在寻找自我安慰的休息之地，还是寻找暴露缺陷的机会？那些渴望通过暴露问题来进步的人。

Who do they look for? Who does, the you know, the up and coming purple belt look for when like, the the young competitor. Is he looking for the egoic rest or the place to be exposed? Right. Like, people who hunger for exposure to get better.

对吧？这就像把承担责任作为一种生活方式。我觉得在决策方面这样做特别有力量。对吧？因为我们不断在做决定，而且是在一个风险越来越高的世界里做决定。

Right? It's like seeking accountability as a way of life. I think there's something really powerful to do that with decision making. Right? Because we're making decisions, and we're making decisions in a higher and higher stakes world.

如果我们在基于现实的领域训练决策艺术，比如国际象棋等级分系统——这他妈就是个客观存在。没有半点虚假。但我听到有人说，我认识些在线下棋的人，他们会说：'这是我的等级分，但我实际水平比这高得多，因为这样那样的原因'。

And if we train at the art of decision making in something that's grounded in reality, like for example, the chess rating system is just a fucking thing. It's objective. There's no bullshit to it. But I hear people like, I know people who play chess online and then they're like, yeah. This is my rating, but I'm actually much stronger than that because of this and this.

要我说：不，你不是。你只是还没正视自己的问题。对吧？你的水平就是不可能超过你的等级分。

It's like, no. You're not. You just haven't taken your shit on. Right? Like, you you you're not stronger than your rating.

你的等级分就是你作为棋手的真实水平。

Your rating is how strong you are as a chess player.

是啊。

Yeah.

对吧？但精准的反馈循环有着某种特别美妙之处。无论是通过与教练训练，还是直接被制服、被痛揍、被击中、输掉比赛——无论形式如何。

Right? But there's something about there's something so beautiful about an accurate feedback loop. Right? Whether and that can be with a coach training with you. It could be on the just getting tapped out, getting your ass kicked, right, getting hit, losing, whatever it is.

我认为人们培养某种生活方式非常强大——在他们的训练生活中扎根于某种没有水分的反馈循环，学会把承担责任作为生活方式，主动寻求反馈循环。我觉得我们在决策中也能这样做。

I think that there's something so powerful about people cultivating some way of life where they're grounded in some kind of feedback loop in their training life that there's no bullshit involved. That they they they they learn to accept accountability as a way of life. They seek feedback loops. Right. I think that we can do this in decision making.

我的观点是：作为一个物种，我们将在日益复杂的世界里做决策，那里还存在超级智能。所以我们需要追踪自己的决策，需要客观判断何时做得好何时做得糟。就像篮球队研究比赛录像，或柔术选手复盘那样——我们需要为我们的决策创建'比赛录像'。

I mean, my view is that we're going to be making decisions as a species in an increasingly complex world where there is a super intelligence. So we need to track our decisions, and we need to see objectively when they are good and when they're bad. Like, just how you can studying tape as a basketball team or as a jujitsu fighter or whatever. Like, we need to we need to create game tape in our decision making. Right?

我们必须停止自欺欺人，不要再幻想自己比所有证据显示的更优秀。

We have to stop deluding ourselves about the fact that we're actually better than everything shows we are.

没错。人们就爱这么想。他们他妈太喜欢这样了。这给他们的成就留了个漂亮的退路，为事情不如意提供了完美的借口。

Right. People love to think that way. They fucking love it. It gives them a nice little out in their accomplishments. It gives them a nice little excuse for why things haven't gone their way.

比如，如果你做了一个决定，就写下这个决定是什么，以及你为什么做出这个决定，然后在一两周或三周后回顾它。对。然后创建一个电子表格、日志，或者随便你他妈想用的什么东西，记录你所有的决定及其原因，并回顾它们。如果当初做决定的理由不再成立，但你还在坚持那个决定——这是每个人都会做的事——那就别那么做了。别那么做。

Like, if you make a decision, write down what the decision is and write down why you made the decision, and then look back on it in a week or two or three. Right. And create like a spreadsheet, a a log, or whatever the fuck you wanna use of all of your decisions and why you made them, and look back on them. And then if the reasons for making the decision no longer are valid, but you're holding to the decision, which is what everyone does, then don't do that. Don't do that.

放手

Let go

吧。重新评估。所以当你与人合作时，你知道，我了解你工作的很大一部分是帮助组织学习，那么你如何向人们灌输这些理念？当你去与人合作时，你是否有遵循的结构？你会尝试观察他们的做法吗？

of it. Reevaluate. So when you work with people and, you know, I know a big part of what you do is help organizations learn and and how do you instill these ideas in people? Do you have a structure that you follow when you go to to work with people? Do you try to see what they do?

是的。我尝试观察他们的做法...我尝试...我从...过去十五年，对，大约十五、十六年来一直在培训精英的心理和身体运动员。对吧？

Yeah. I try to see what they so I I tried I've been training for the last fifteen since two yeah. It's fifteen, sixteen years. Elite mental and physical athletes. Right?

决策者、投资者、运动员、格斗选手。你和格斗选手合作吗？NBA球队。嗯，在我的学校，和马塞洛一起，我们有一个庞大的，是的，格斗选手群体。柔术选手。

Decision makers, investors, athletes, fighters. You work with fighters? NBA teams. Well, in my school with Marcelo, we had a huge, yeah, group of fighters. Jujutsu fighters.

嗯。所以我一生都在与各个领域的顶尖人物对话。有一点是，我喜欢，我热爱与那些想要挑战自我的人合作。所以这始于他们全身心投入这个过程。我不太擅长，比如，激励人们去面对自己的问题。

Mhmm. And so I've been in dialogue with people who are the the like, the pinnacles of different fields my whole life. And one thing is that I like, I love working with people who wanna take themselves on. So it begins with them being all in on on on the process. I'm not great at, like, motivating people to take their shit on.

不。我，我喜欢，比如，一旦我们开始面对自己的问题，我就喜欢开始工作。所以，是的。就是这样，然后它是因人而异的。比如，我会去了解某人的模式。

No. I I love to, like like, begin once we're taking our shit on. So Yeah. That and then it's it's individualized. Like, I I get to know someone's pattern.

99%只是倾听、观察。我很多工作的核心是试图理解他们才华与怪癖、或天才与功能障碍之间的纠缠。我认为太快人们就试图介入。如果你带着某种固定的公式来处理事情，你将会削除个体的才华。对吧？

Just 99% listening, observing. Under a lot of what I try to do is understand the entanglement of their brilliance and their eccentricity or their genius and their dysfunction. I think so quickly people try to come in. If you come in with some kind of formula for how things will be done, you're gonna be slicing away the brilliance of of individuals. Right?

比如，我们所有最杰出的创造都与我们心智中功能失调的部分交织在一起。每个人都想让人变得正常化。就像在大多数不同领域的培训师或教练圈子里，我认为这大多是胡说八道，因为大多是纸上谈兵的教授，他们不理解在巅峰表现的那条刀刃上玩耍实际意味着什么，在那里你必须做出一个决定，那是一个正处在灾难边缘的风险，但那就是，比如，穿针引线的解决方案。所以当我开始与某人合作时，我试图非常非常深入地了解他们。他们的成功模式，他们的失败模式，他们的天才与功能障碍在何处纠缠。

Like, all of our most brilliant creations are interwoven with the dysfunctional parts of our mind. Everyone wants to normalize people. Like most in in the realm of like trainers or coaches of different fields, I think it's mostly bullshit because mostly armchair professors who don't understand what it actually means to be playing on on that razor's edge of peak performance, where you have to make a decision, which is taking a risk that's right on the edge of something catastrophic, but that's the, like, thread the needle solution. And so when I start working with someone, I try to get to know them very, very deeply. Their patterns their patterns of success, their patterns of failure, their where their genius and their dysfunction are entangled.

我经常进入我所谓的‘洞穴过程’，即试图理解他们的自我表达是什么，就像比喻性地和他们一起进入洞穴，试图理解如果摆脱了反应性和惯性，他们的自我表达会是什么样子。所以不是对他们之前所做的做出反应。嗯。也不受他们之前所做事情的惯性束缚。嗯。而只是天马行空地思考理想的解决方案会是什么。那对他们来说最纯粹的自我表达会是什么。

I often go into what I call a cave process, which is trying to understand what their self expression is, like going into the cave with them metaphorically, try to understand what their self expression would be liberated from reactivity and inertia. So not reacting away from what they did before Mhmm. And not being subject to the inertia of what they did before Mhmm. But just blue skying what the ideal solution would be. It what the most pure self expression for them would be.

所以这完全取决于个人及其最初的方法。

So it's completely dependent upon the individual and their approach initially.

是的。而且不是他们的方法，而是个人及其方法的模式。对吧？不是他们会按照以前的方式做事，而是我有很多谦逊。比如，我不认为我知道那条路。

Yeah. And and not not their approach, the individual and the patterns of their approach. Right? Not that they would do things the way they did before, but I have a lot of humility. Like, I don't think that I know the way.

我不认为有一条固定的路。我认为我们都有自己的路需要去发现。比如，对我伤害最大的教练，在我15、16岁那个时期，我有一位属于俄罗斯象棋学派的教练，他基本上让我远离了自我表达，远离了我的风格。我那时的象棋风格一直是富有创造力、进攻性、即兴发挥的。我喜欢制造混乱，并在混乱中发现隐藏的和谐。

I don't think there is a way. I think we all have our own way we need to discover. Like, coaches who have been most damaging to me for example, when I was in that same period when I was 15, 16 years old, I had a coach who was part of the Russian school of chess who essentially had me move away from my self expression, move away from my style. My style of chess play at that point my whole life had been creative, attacking, improvisational. I love to create chaos and find hidden harmonies in chaos.

我喜欢战斗。他敦促我停止那样下棋。停止研究那种风格。要像彼得罗相或卡尔波夫那样冷酷、预防性的棋手一样下棋。我的风格更接近——不是实力，而是风格——像加里·卡斯帕罗夫、米哈伊尔·塔尔或鲍比·菲舍尔那样的棋手，他们是激进的，身体里流淌着很多热血。

I love to battle. He urged me to stop playing that way. Stop studying that style of play. Play like these cold blooded prophylactic chess players like Petrozin or Karpov. I played much more in the style, not the strength, but the style of, like, Gary Kasparov or Mikhail Tal or Bobby Fischer, like players who were who were aggressive, who had a lot of, like, red blood flowing through their body.

就像我是热血型的。他敦促我采用与我天性相反的风格去下棋。想想卡尔波夫在这里会怎么做，而不是乔什会怎么做

Like, I was hot blooded. And he urged me to play in the opposite style from what was natural to me. Think what would Karpov do here, not what would Josh do

。这样做有好处吗，只是为了扩展你的棋路 repertoire？

here. Is there a benefit to that just to expand your repertoire?

是的。这样做绝对有好处，但这也让一个年轻的竞争者远离了他们的自我表达，远离了对游戏的热爱，远离了他们的激情。对吧？我想起了尤里·拉祖瓦耶夫，一位杰出的人，俄罗斯象棋学派的另一支柱，他对我说了一句惊人的话。他对我说，乔什，你可以通过卡斯帕罗夫来学习卡尔波夫。

Yes. There is absolutely a benefit to that, but there's also the movement of a of a young of, like, a young competitor away from their self expression, a love from their love for the game, a love from their passion. Right? I think I had this there's this brilliant man named Yuri Rasovayev who was on the other pillar of the Russian school of chess who said this amazing thing to me. He said to me, Josh, you can learn Karpov through Kasparov.

在那之后的很多很多年里，我都不明白他的意思。但那时在我的象棋生涯中接受这一点有点太晚了。但他的意思是，你可以通过研究伟大攻击手的防御来学习伟大的防御象棋。

And I didn't understand what he meant for many, many years after that. But and it was a little too late in my chess life to take that in. But what he was saying is that you can learn the great defensive chess by studying the defense of the great attackers.

为什么在你的职业生涯中接受这个为时已晚？

Why was it late in your career to take that in?

嗯，好问题。只是当他对我说的时候，我那时二十出头，我已经失去了对象棋的热爱。它变得停滞、陈旧了。你知道，是个好挑战。可能并不算晚，但我当时听不进去。

Well, good question. It's just when he said it to me, it like, my my like, I was in my early twenties and my and, like, my love for I'd lost my love for chess. Like, it had gotten static, stale. Like, I I would it it you know, good challenge. It probably wasn't late, but I I wasn't I couldn't hear it.

我我我并没有。就像，我本可以进入那个洞穴，离开，经历一场意外的危机，然后回到国际象棋，但除了那个原因之外，当时还有很多事情让我远离国际象棋。我我不想再被困在64个格子的局限里了。我感觉自己像笼中的狮子。所以，如果如果我在14、15岁时认识他，那我的国际象棋生涯将会是另一番景象。

I I I didn't. Like, I would have had to go into the cave, go away, go through an accidental crisis, and come back to chess, but there were a lot of things that were moving me away from chess at that point in addition to that. I I didn't wanna be trapped inside of the confines of 64 squares anymore. Got I felt like a lion in a cage. So it was like, if if I had known him when I was 14, 15, he it would have been a different arc for me in the chess life.

但也许那对我的生活来说会更糟。如果我在50岁时认识他，我他妈的可能会一辈子下国际象棋，而我现在非常庆幸我没有。所以谁知道呢？

But maybe it would have been much worse for my life. If I'd known him in the 50, I might have fucking played chess for the rest of my life, and I'm so grateful I didn't. So who knows?

当生活带你走上这些道路，或者你自己踏上旅程，并意识到你做出的那些将你引向某个方向的决策——如果你认为你现在所过的生活是最优的，那么这些就是关键决策。如果这是最优的，那么，是的，你离开国际象棋是件好事。但如果你在更年轻的时候得到那样的指导，它重新点燃了你对国际象棋的热爱，那么这对你目前的生活来说会是好事。因为你会说，嗯，你知道，作为一个如此热爱国际象棋的人，我非常感激在11岁时遇到了这个人，他们把我引向了这条正确的道路。

Isn't it interesting when life takes you on these or you go on your own journey, and you realize that decisions that you've made that have turned you in one like, those are critical decisions if you think of the life that you're living now is this optimal. If this is optimal, then, yes, it's good that you moved away from chess. But if you had gotten that coaching when you were younger and it reignited your love of chess, then it would be good for the life that you currently have. Because you would say, well, you know, as a person who's just, like, so in love with chess, I'm so grateful that I ran into this person when I was 11 years old, and they sent me in this correct path.

是的。我的意思是，我我绝对同意。我我是说，对我来说，我热爱我现在的生活，对我所经历的生活充满感激，我在很多方面因为刚才描述的那种疏离体验而远离了国际象棋。嗯。还有电影带来的各种动态和一切。

Yeah. I mean, I I absolutely. I I mean, for me, I love the life that I live that like, I'm so grateful for the life that I've lived, and I was moved away from chess in many ways by this alienating experience of of that I just described. Mhmm. And then also the dynamics of the movie and everything.

但我在电影之后又下了八年棋，所以我的成绩非常好。但我当时正陷入一种内心的存在主义危机。是的。对吧？然后，但是每一次，比如灾难性的受伤、心碎的失败，或者在只差毫厘就能赢得决赛时输掉世界冠军——所有那些让我心碎的重大失败，我现在都心存感激，它们带来了最大的胜利、最深刻的见解和转变。

But I was many I played just for eight years after the after the movie, and so my results were very good. But I was moving into this internal I was in an existential crisis. Yeah. Right? And then but I every, like, catastrophic injury or heartbreaking loss or losing a world championship in a like, when you're a millimeter from winning the finals, like, all of those losses that were so heartbreaking to me, every big loss, I'm grateful for now and led to the biggest wins and led to the biggest insights and transitions.

而我今天的生活，我在许多方面经历的危机，武装了我去帮助人们在他们的艺术中表达自己。对吧？再回到你的问题，我作为竞争者所做的许多解读，我现在会反过来运用。所以，就像我过去解读棋手、发现他们思维卡住的地方、找出他们的偏见模式、发现他们能量停滞之处、找到他们静态的位置那样，然后我会利用这些弱点。

And and my life today, like the crises that I had in many ways have armed me to help people express themselves in their arts. Right? And a lot of the reads that I made as a competitor, to go back to your question, like, I invert now. So, like, the things that the way I would read chess players find where their minds were stuck, fall find where their bias patterns were, like, find where their energy was stuck, find where they were, like, static. Now and then I would exploit them.

对吧？就像你在格斗比赛中做的一样。你找到某人模式静态的地方并加以利用。对吧？而我在培训别人时做的是，我发现那些——我对这些有很好的嗅觉，因为我作为竞争者花了一生时间去嗅出它们，感受它们的存在，但然后我致力于解放它们，消除那些阻碍。

Right? Same thing you do in the fight game. You find where someone's pattern is static and exploit it. Right? Then what I do in training people is I find those I have a very good nose for those because I spent my life as a competitor sniffing them out, feeling my way to them, but then I work on liberating them, releasing the obstruction.

所以，我今天与杰出表演者合作的工作，很多都是致力于释放我过去用来

So a lot of what I do today in my work with brilliant performers is is work on unleashing what I used

利用的东西。这很有趣。太棒了。教别人如何把事情做得更好，这一定非常令人满足。

to exploit. That's interesting. That's great. That must be very satisfying to teach people how to get better at things.

是的。很有趣。我我不使用那个。是的。我不教人——我不懂那个。

Yeah. It's interesting. I I don't use that. Yeah. I don't teach peep I don't know it.

我并不是在把我所知道的东西教给某些人。而是你在教我你所知道的。我们其实是在一起探索他们的道路。明白吗？我不会一开始就想着'你就他妈该这么做'。

I'm not teaching some people for something I know. But you're teaching me what you know. We're we're well, I'm kind of discovering their path with them. Okay. Like, I don't go in thinking like this is the way you fucking should do.

是的。我不认为我知道他们应该做什么。我相信任何教练，如果不深入倾听对方的自我表达就自以为知道别人该怎么做，那都是错的，他们应该拒绝这样的教练。

Right. Don't believe that I know what they should do. And I believe that any coach who thinks that they know what someone else should do without listening to the self expression of that person very, very deeply is just wrong, and they should not be they could reject that coach.

没错。要能真正辅导一个人，你必须从心理层面理解他们。因为有时候你并不知道问题卡在哪里，直到你遇到时才会发现：哦，原来是在这里。

Right. Yeah. Well, you have to really understand someone psychologically to be able to coach them as well. Yeah. Because sometimes you don't know, like, what the the hitch is until you run you're like, oh, there it is.

对。所以这就是你整个人生的问题所在。

Right. So this is your whole problem with your whole life.

就像个卡点。但神奇的是，你找到了那个卡点，然后发现它与你最重大的经历交织在一起。嗯。我发给你的那篇关于Marcello的文章。嗯。记得吗？

Like a hitch. But the amazing thing is you find the hitch, but then you see, oh, that hitch is interwoven Mhmm. With your biggest like, I I sent you that I sent you that thing I wrote about Marcello. Mhmm. Right?

然后，我和Marcelo之间有过一个不可思议的时刻，非常情感化的时刻。你知道，我形容他是一个出色的'低重复学习者'。在我生命中，我从未见过有人能像他那样，无论经验大小，都能从中极致学习。

And, like, there was this incredible moment that I had with with Marcelo. Such an emotional moment. You know? He so he he's in I I describe him as, like, this great lower rep learner. And he's someone who uniquely in my life I've never seen anyone better at learning from one experience, big or large.

对吧？那时我们坐在一起，大概是六年前。我们聊着生活、旅程和一切，他开始哭泣。他对我说：Josh，我从未忘记我的痛苦。

Right? And then there was this moment we were sitting. I guess it was six years ago. We were sitting just talking about life and our journey and everything, and he started he started weeping. And he and he said to me, you know, Josh, I never forget my pain.

他说，Marcelo经历过一场真正的悲剧。他失去了一个孩子。Marcelo和妻子Tachi有一对双胞胎，他们失去了儿子Joey。Olivia和Joey早产，Joey不幸夭折。那是一场可怕的悲剧。

And and he he said, you know, Marcelo had a real tragedy. He lost a baby. Marcelo and Tachi, his wife, they lost they had twins, and they lost their baby Joey. Olivia and Joey were born premature, and Joey Joey died. It was a terrible tragedy.

那对他们来说是毁灭性的，简直难以置信。毁灭性的。失去儿子，失去母亲，失去父亲。每一次有人用某种眼神看他，每一次有人对他提高嗓门，触发他进入战斗状态。每一次被降服，每一次被扫倒。我意识到，他所有的痛苦每时每刻都伴随着他。

It was just devastating for I mean, just beyond belief. Devastating. And like like the loss of his son, the loss of his mother, the loss of his father. Every moment someone looked at him a certain way, every moment somebody, like, raised their voice at him and it triggered him into, a fight place. Every every time he'd been submitted, every time he'd swept, every time I realized as he was saying this, like, all of his pain is with him every moment.

当他向我描述这些时，那是一个极其情感澎湃的场景，他哭泣着，像兄弟般向我倾诉：他带着生命中经历的每一道伤痕，无时无刻不活着。我们以为这位杰出的低重复学习者拥有超乎常人的学习能力，这是一种超能力，但也无时无刻不在折磨着他。而你无法简单地移除它，不能只是说：放下你的痛苦吧。

And as he described this to me, it was an incredibly emotional scene where he was just weeping in his exploration in in his, like, just brother to brother talking to me about, like, he walks around with every wound he's experienced in life present all the fucking time. And so we think of, like, this brilliant low rep learner, the guy who has a superhuman ability to learn from one experience, but it it and it's a superpower, but also it it ravages him all the fucking time. And you can't just remove that. You can't be like, yeah. Release your pain.

没错。

Right.

会很棒。是的。但与此同时你也在释放那种天才特质。而且

Be great. Yeah. But then you're also releasing the the the genius. And

这就是那些在某方面真正出色的人的特点。失败的痛苦对他们来说是毁灭性的。比如，当你谈论五月时的天才，人们常以迈克尔·乔丹为例。天才篮球运动员，但竞争心强得难以置信。是的。

it's the thing about people that are really amazing at something. The pain of losing is so devastating to them. Like, when you when you talk about genius in May like, people use Michael Jordan as an example. Genius basketball player, but unbelievably competitive. Yeah.

就像，根本控制不住自己。

Like, just can't help himself.

在每件事上。每件事。场上场下都是。

In everything. In everything. On and off the court.

我听说如果你在台球上赢了他，他会两周不跟你说话

I've I've heard if you beat him at pool, he won't talk

你可能会说，迈克，在台球桌上放松点不行吗？你在乎什么？但你不能这么说。加雷思·埃斯帕尔也是这样的。

to you for two weeks. You could be like, Mike, just take it fucking easy on the pool table. What do you care? But you can't say that. Gareth Espar was the same way.

是的。事事争强好胜。

Yeah. Competitive in everything.

每件事。

Everything.

但你不能就这样，比如，去掉那种特质。你连同天才也一起去掉了。

But you can't just, like, remove that. You're removing the genius with it.

对。对。就像你拥有一台法拉利引擎，却试图在30英里每小时的交通中穿行。然后你就会觉得，操。

Right. Right. That you you have a Ferrari engine, and you're trying to, like, navigate 30 mile per hour traffic. And you're like, fuck.

我永远不会忘记这位国际象棋教练马克·诺弗雷茨基，他对我说过一句极其傲慢的话，那时我大概15、16岁。他告诉我，如果他能从鲍比·菲舍尔7岁起就担任他的教练，他本可以让菲舍尔成为一名更强大得多的棋手，而且不会有任何疯狂行为。

I'll never forget this this this chess coach, Mark Novretsky, who I was he said to me this unbelievably hubristic thing when I was 15, 16 years old. He said to me, if he had had Bobby Fischer as a student as a as a from as a seven year old, he could have made Fischer a much, much stronger chess player without any of the craziness.

我还记得那些疯狂的事。

And I remember the craziness.

我当时就觉得，我…我作为一个青少年，听到那句话时我的手都开始出汗了。因为对我来说，这他妈根本就不是真的。

And I was just like, I I as a teenager, like, I I just my my hands started, like, sweating when I just said that. It's just like because to me, it's just it's just not fucking true.

对。

Right.

就像，菲舍尔

Like, Fisher

这种话太疯狂了。

crazy thing to say.

是啊。这是一种傲慢，对吧？而正是这个人当时在推动我朝那个方向走。但这与我的方法完全相反。

Yeah. It's a it's a it's hubris. Right? And this is this is the same guy who was urging me into that that direction. Like but that that that's the opposite of my approach.

对吧？我认为我们需要，如果我们试图将功能障碍与天才分离开来，我们就需要非常深入地理解它。我们需要耐心地播下种子，让那种天才在别处发芽。我们需要浇灌那些种子。我们需要观察它们的成长。

Right? I think we need and then if we are going to try to disentangle the dysfunction from the genius, we need to understand it very deeply. We need to plant the seeds patiently for that genius to sprout somewhere else. We need to water those seeds. We need to observe them coming.

我们必须非常、非常轻柔地打磨掉那些功能失调的模式，同时观察它是否…这是一个非常精细的过程。对吧？

We have to very, like, slightly sand away the dysfunctional patterning while observing if it like, it's a very delicate process. Right?

你不能他妈的就这么把肿瘤切掉。嗯，还有一个问题是，当某人变得非常擅长做某件事，并且他们有非常特定的方式时。他们变得非常擅长做某事。他们就认为这是唯一的方式，并且适用于所有人，他们可以将自己的方式强加给别人。而最初让他们变得伟大的那种傲慢，也正是这种让他们认为自己可以带走鲍比·菲舍尔并让他变得更好的傲慢。

You can't just fucking excise the tumor. Well, there's also a problem in when someone becomes very good at doing something, and they have a very specific way. They've become very good at doing something. They assume that this is the way and that this is the way for everyone and that they can impose their way on other people. And the what led them to become great in the first place is also that hubris that makes them think they could take Bobby Fischer and make him even better.

嗯，这就是为什么伟大的教练，比如，伟大的拳击手往往不是伟大的教练。对吧？因为大多数老师都以他们学习的方式教学，这从定义上就会疏远70%或80%的学生。

Well, that's why great coaches, like, great fighters often aren't great coaches. Right? Because they most teachers teach the way they learned, which will alienate 70 or 80% of their students by definition.

对。

Right.

伟大的教练可以，嗯，对于一个大的群体来说，伟大的教练需要能够为不同类型的学习者教授不同的方法。是的。不同的学习模式。他们是视觉型的吗？他们是体感型的吗？

Great coaches can well, great coaches for a a large group need to be able to teach different ways for different kinds of learners. Yeah. Different modalities of learners. Are they are they visual? Are they somatic?

他们是听觉型的吗？比如，什么能激发他们？你必须知道，如果你在教一个国际象棋班——我十几岁时就开始教一群孩子下棋。我从幼儿园教到五年级，我们最终在纽约赢了比赛。那是一段与PS 116学校的孩子们一起的美好旅程。

Are they are they auditory? Like, what makes them tick? And you have to know if you're if you're teaching a chess class I started teaching a group of kids chess when I was in my teens. I taught them from kindergarten through fifth grade, and we ended up winning in New York. It was a beautiful journey with kids at PS one sixteen.

我们从移动棋子到赢得市、州和全国冠军。这非常有趣，因为我一次要教八到十个孩子，就像在进行一场同时进行的表演赛。每个孩子都有自己的语言，我完全沉浸在这个主题中，这让我精疲力尽。嗯。因为我同时在给10个孩子上10节不同的国际象棋课。

And we from moving the pieces to winning city, state, and national championships. And it was so interesting because I'd be like teaching eight, ten kids at once, and I would be teaching it was like giving a simultaneous exhibition. Like, each one had their own language, and it was I I was, like, so involved with this theme that I would be it was exhausting. Mhmm. Because I was teaching 10 chess lessons at the same time to 10 kids.

我记得有一次，一个令人心碎的时刻，我有一个叫伊万的学生，他非常有魅力、很投入，你知道，我们关系非常亲密。我爱这个孩子。在全国锦标赛上，我给他做了一次鼓舞士气的谈话，用他需要的方式激励他。然后他跑开了，充满干劲，准备去大展身手。然后队里另一个孩子，一个美丽敏感的男孩走了过来，我用刚才对伊万说话的那种能量看着他，并把同样的能量带给了他。

And I remember I had this moment, this heartbreaking moment where I had this one student named Ivan who I who I I just charismatic, intense, you know, we had a very close relationship. I love the kid. And like I was he was with the national championship, was giving him this this this pep talk, and I was just, like, firing him up and, like, speaking to him in the way he needed to be spoken to. And and then he was, like, he ran off, like, stoked, fired up to go kick some ass. And then this other kid who was on the team, this beautiful sensitive boy came over, and I looked at him with the same energy that I just been speaking to Ivan, and I brought it to him.

然后，我和他说话大约十五秒后，我看着他的眼睛，意识到，就像，这

And and I I was, like, fifteen seconds into speaking to him, I looked at his eyes, and I realized, like, this

是一场灾难。

is a disaster.

就像，我这样太糟糕了。然后我停了下来。我，就像，拥抱了他，我们，就像，放慢了节奏。你知道，他需要一种与伊万完全不同的方式。

Like, I'm being this is terrible. And then I stopped. I, like, and I, like, gave him a hug, and we, like, slowed it down. We you know, he he he needed to go into a very different way than Ivan went in.

对。

Right.

但是教练，想想你看到四分卫搞砸拳手的情况有多频繁。是啊。对吧？是啊。我的意思是，作为教练，我认为我们必须放下自己的自负和我们自以为知道应该如何学习的想法。

But coach, think about how often you see quarter men fucking up fighters. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, so as a as a coach, I think we have to, like, put our own egos aside and our idea that we know how one should learn.

是啊。这就是为什么找到合适的教练非常重要。你必须找到一个理解你、并且拥有你能实施的风格的教练，因为有些教练的风格你身体上就不适合，你不是为那种方式设计的。你无法按照他们学习的方式去学习。是啊。

Yeah. And it's that's what's very important is finding the right coach. You you have to find a coach that understands you and has a style that you can implement because there's some coaches that just have styles that you you don't physically you're not designed for. You you don't you can't learn the way they learned. Yeah.

你令人着迷的地方在于，你从一个极度竞争者转变为教导或指导人们找到最好的自我，并学会如何获得它。很少有人能在某件事上变得非常出色，同时还能擅长向他人展示如何进步。这是一种你特有的专注。为什么这对你来说如此有回报？

That's what's fascinating about you is that you've gone from being this hypercompetitor to teaching people or coaching people to find the very best version of themselves and how to how to acquire that. That's very rare that someone who gets really good at something also becomes really good at showing people how they can get better at things. Like, that's a specific focus that you've had. Like, why why is that so rewarding to you?

嗯，当我背部受伤时，我接受了一个有趣的挑战，因为我当时已经在做这个了，我在训练别人。但当我背部受伤时，我记得我说，好吧。在康复过程中，经过一年半到两年的否认和坚持训练后，当我停下来时，我试图以训练自己时的同样激情和热爱去训练别人。我想看看我是否能像爱自己训练那样爱它，但我从未达到那个境界。然后，这促使我发现了海洋艺术，并全身心投入训练。

Well, I took on this interesting challenge when I broke my back, because I was already doing this, but I I was training people. But I when I broke my back, I remember I said, okay. During this healing process, after the year and a half to two years of denial and training through it, when I stopped, I tried to take on training people with the same passion and love that I had for training myself. I wanted to see if I could, like, love it as much, and I never got there. And then and then I got into the you know, that that's part of what moved me into discovering the ocean arts and being all in on training.

所以我与训练他人的关系很大一部分是通过训练自己来实现的。就像我总是生活在自己的极限中。我认为一旦教练离开了那个他们时刻将自己的自负或生命置于风险之中的竞技场，嗯。他们就会变得停滞，开始自以为知道答案。就像那个多年不训练、在场边抽烟告诉别人该做什么的肥胖武术教练，不再动态，不再将自己的...一旦我们的自负受到保护。是啊。

So a big part of my relationship with training other people is training myself as a way of Like, I'm always like, I'm living at my limit in my in the arena myself. The moment I think a coach, like, leaves the arena where they're putting their own ego on the line all the time or their life on the line or whatever the fuck they're putting on the line Mhmm. Then they they become static, and they start to think they know the answer. It's like the the fat, you know, martial arts instructor who's many years past training and is smoking a cigarette in the sideline telling people what to do and no longer is, like, actually dynamic than putting their the moment our egos get protected. Yeah.

对吧？所以我与训练的关系是我一直生活的一部分。我认为成为父亲也是其中很大一部分，就像那种养育。我所做的很多事是颠倒我过去用来击垮人的方式，现在我用它来治愈或释放他们。

Right? So my relationship to training is something that I live all the time. I think also becoming a dad was a big part of it, Like the the nurturing. And a lot of what I've done is invert what I used to do to break people. Now I invert to heal them or to unleash them.

成为父亲是我经历过的最谦卑的事情。我以为我对教育有想法，直到我成为父亲，才意识到我一无所知。不得不从头开始。是啊。还有创伤模式，理解人们的创伤模式非常重要。

Becoming a like being a father is about the most humbling thing I've ever. I thought I had ideas about about education until I became a dad, and I realized I didn't know anything. Had to start over. Yeah. And also the wound pattern, like, think understanding people's wound patterns is very important.

我的很多创伤模式在于深爱某样东西，却被它疏远，然后找到一种后意识的关系以及其中的自我表达。我认为帮助人们完成这段旅程非常重要。而且，我也喜欢与全力以赴的家伙们互动。我的当前项目涉及尖端科学和人工智能，都是杰出的科学家。

And a lot of my wound pattern is in loving something very, very deeply, being alienated from it, and then finding a postconscious relationship to it and the self expression within it. And and I think that helping people with that with that journey is is is really important. And, also, I I love engaging with all in motherfuckers. I mean, I just love, like, you know, my current projects are, like, cutting edge science and AI. Just brilliant scientists.

这非常有趣且深入，比如深度参与波士顿凯尔特人队，NBA世界的顶尖，我与主教练乔·马祖拉的关系，以及教练的教练这种模式，这是我长期发展并参与的，帮助组织的领导者作为他们人民的教练表达自己，这是我工作的重要部分，还有其他一些有趣的投资和科技项目。这让我能在迷人的领域玩耍，并研究互联性。我的很大一部分热情在于主题互联性，比如波士顿凯尔特人队发生的事情与尖端科学项目、以及极其有趣的科技投资项目有何相同之处。

It's such an incredibly interesting and, like, deep being deeply involved with the Boston Celtics, like, the very top of the NBA world and my relationship with Joe Mazula, the head coach and kind of coaching the coach is a modality that I've been developed playing in for a long time, helping the leader of an organization express themselves as the coach of their people is a big part of what I do and a couple other interesting investing and tech projects. And, like, just helping some like, it allows me to play in in fascinating realms and then studying the interconnectedness. I mean, a big part of my passion is thematic interconnectedness. Like, how is what's happening with the Boston Celtics the same as what's happening in this cutting edge science program? The same as what's happening in this wildly interesting tech investing program.

对吧？那么这些原则，这些相互关联的纤维如何更广泛地与文化联系起来，又如何与我以及我每天烧水煮茶时的所作所为相关联呢？

Right? And how do those principles, those interconnecting fibers relate to culture more broadly and relate to me and what I'm doing every day on the on the water boiling?

是的。那是宫本武藏。没错。一旦你广泛地理解了道，你就能在所有事物中看到它。

Yeah. That's Miyamoto Musashi. Yeah. Once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things.

所以是《五轮书》。对吧？对我来说，我觉得难以置信竟然这么少人深入研究过武藏。我是说，不管你是读关于他生平的小说，然后学习《五轮书》，我认为每个人都该读上，比如，10遍，也许一天一页

So the book of five rings. Right? Like, to me, I feel that I cannot believe how few people have studied Musashi deeply. Right? I mean, whether you're reading read the novel about his life and then studying like, of five rings, I think everyone should read, like, 10 times, maybe a day a page

是的。

Yeah.

反复读10遍。我，你知道，武藏我最喜欢的节奏之一是在《五轮书》的许多章节中，他如何反复强调，基本上，这些文字是空的。你必须将其作为一种生活方式来实践。

10 times over. I you know, one of my favorite cadences of Musashi is in so many chapters of book of five rings, how he comes back and says, like, essentially, these words are empty. You have to practice it as a way of life.

没错。

Yes.

一遍又一遍。人们总是跳过这些部分，但他们没有真正理解，每个人都想被告知他妈该做什么，而不是明白他们必须为道路努力，去搞清楚自己他妈到底该做什么。你必须将其作为一种生活方式来实践。对吧。对吧？

Again and again. And people just skip these things, but they don't real and everyone wants to be told what to fucking do as opposed to understanding they have to work for the path to figure out what the fuck they should do. It and you have to practice as a way of life. Right. Right?

是啊。这才叫真正的狠角色。

Yeah. Talk about a real motherfucker.

嗯， fascinating 的是他通过成为一名剑客学到了这一点。是的。成为剑客的最佳方式是什么？你的心中不能有丝毫杂念，所以你必须保持平衡。而他的方法是，你必须成为一名艺术家。

Well, just fascinating that he learned this by being a sword fighter. Yeah. What is the best way to be a sword fighter? You can have no bullshit in your mind, so you must be balanced. And his approach was you must be an artist.

你必须是一名诗人。你必须是一名武士。你必须与你的所有感受、所有感官以及关于你的一切保持协调，并正确地做好每件事。做好所有事情。

You must be a poet. You must be a warrior. You must be in tune with all of your feelings and all of your senses and everything about you and to do everything correctly. Do all all things.

他是在殊死搏斗吗？至死方休。所以没有任何废话。没错。没有规则。

And he was fighting to the death? To the death. So there was no bullshit. Right. There's no rules.

在一对一搏斗中杀了62个人。是的。

Killed for 62 men Yeah. In one on one combat.

你不能说，哦不，那不是我的错。那根本行不通。不行。你得承担起自己的责任。

You can't say, like, oh, no. That wasn't my fault. That doesn't fucking work. No. You take your shit on.

是的。但生活中有种如此美丽的真实性。比如，当你在柔道队里，看到有人一直没打算参赛，然后突然下周就要比赛了？嗯。他们的备战过程会如何压缩？

Yeah. But that's but there's something so beautiful about the truth telling nature of living. Like, if you you know you know when you're on the when you're in a jujitsu team and and you've got some you watch someone who doesn't think they're competing for a while, then they're they're suddenly, like, they're competing next week? Mhmm. How the repertoire compresses?

就像所有赘肉瞬间消失。嗯。对吧？那个过程和节奏中有种特别美的东西。是的。

Like, all the fat just flies off. Mhmm. Right? There's something so beautiful about that process and the cadence. Yeah.

而且，如果我们生活在火焰中（接受挑战），我们就不会一直自欺欺人，因为存在这种揭示真相的模式。没错。所以问题是我们如何让尽可能多的人以某种真实的方式生活，在我们所做的事情中有一个接地气的、真实的、准确的反馈循环。我们是在实践一种生活方式。

And, like, if we live putting ourselves in the flame, then we're not gonna be bullshitting ourselves all the time because there's this truth telling modality. Right. So the question is how can we how can we, as many of us as possible, live in some form that's true to us where we are there's this grounded truth telling accurate feedback loop in what we're doing. We're practicing as a of life.

恐怕我们中有很多人，甚至可能正在听这个的人，从未发展过他们生活的那个方面。而且一旦你走上了自满和舒适的道路，就很难再开始那条（挑战的）路。让人们去拥抱这种新的思维和与现实互动的方式非常困难。

Fears that there's so many of us, probably even people that are listening to this right now, that have never developed that aspect of their life. And it's very difficult to get started on that path once you've been on this path of complacency and comfort. It's very hard for people to sort of embrace this new way of thinking and interfacing with reality.

但当事情艰难时，那很美。就像，那是开始。我们希望事情变得艰难。所以第一件事是，我认为我们希望人们爱上艰难带来的不适感。这很难。

But when things are hard, that's beautiful. Like, that's the beginning. We want things to be hard. So the first thing is I think we want people to love the discomfort of being hard. It's hard.

他妈的一切值得做的事情都很难。

Fucking everything worthwhile is hard.

没错。

Right.

比如，我们不是...你做过什么有趣但不那么困难的事情？每次你进行冰浴，那都他妈的很艰难。是的。比如每天冷水浴。我觉得你也这么做。

Like, we not what what have you done that's that's been interesting that hasn't been hard? Every time you get in an ice plunge, it's fucking hard. Yeah. Like, cold plunge every day. I think you do too.

对吧？是的。是的。这就像一种生活方式。每次都非常艰难。

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's a way of life. It's fucking hard every time.

是的。这并不容易。艰难是美丽的。生活在痛苦的彼岸确实很艰难。但很有价值。

Yeah. It's not easy. Hard is beautiful. Living on the other side of pain is really hard. Valuable.

你没坚持下去。那种知道自己没完成的感觉。是的。那很难受。对你不好。

You're not doing it. That's Knowing that you didn't do it. Yeah. That's hard. That's not good for you.

不。那不好。如果你让那个部分的自己——当你在里面四十秒时，你会想，现在赶紧出去。是的。如果你让那部分赢了，你一整天都会感觉很糟糕。

No. It's not good. If you let that that part of you when you're forty seconds in, you're like, let's get the fuck out now. Yeah. If you let that part win, you feel terrible for the rest of the day.

但如果你再坚持两分二十秒...是的。你会感觉非常好。出来时会想，好了，搞定了一次。

But if you just hang in there for two minutes and twenty seconds more Yeah. You'll feel so good. You get out of there like, alright. Got this one done.

这就像你在冲浪但没有摔倒。那是糟糕的一天，老兄，因为你没有足够用力地推进转弯。你没有足够地突破。你没有足够猛烈地驾驭它。对吧？

It's like you are foiling and you don't fall. That's a terrible day, man, because you're not pushing your turns hard enough. You're not breaching enough. You're not ripping it around hard enough. Right?

比如，每个人都会发现...这就像投资者身上发生的一件事。对吧？他们成功了，然后他们开发出一个心理模型来复制成功。对吧？所以他们找出心理模型，变成可以遵循的固定模式。

Like, everyone finds these these it's like one thing that happens with investors. Right? They they become successful and then they develop a mental model to replicate the success. Right? So they figure out mental model become a groove that they can follow.

嗯。但然后这个模式变成了他们陷入的 rut（车辙），开始积水，变成死水。然后他们坚守基于十年前或二十年前成功的旧心理模型，余生都困在其中。是的。这在每个领域都一再发生。

Mhmm. But then the groove becomes a rut they get stuck in, and then it starts to collect water, and it's stagnant water. And then they hold to an old mental model based on a success ten years ago or twenty years ago, they're and trapped in it for the rest of their lives. Yeah. It happens again and again in every field.

对吧？一些早期的成功让你建立一个框架。你创造一种模式。你建立一个心理模型。你复制成功。

Right? Some early success creates you make a framework. You make a modality. You create a mental model. You replicate the success.

它不起作用，你坚持它是因为你的身份与那个心智模型相连，而你没有活在动态品质中。你的品质变得静态了。

It's not working, you stick to it because your identity gets connected to that mental model, and you're not living with dynamic quality. Your qualities become static.

是的。人们也很难意识到这种情况正在发生，因为一旦人们获得成功，害怕失去这种成功的恐惧就会压倒他们。然后有时候控制一个成功过的人更容易，因为他们不想放手。他们不想回到过去，他们想继续前进。

Yeah. It's it's so hard for people to recognize when that's happening as well because, you know, once people get success, then the fear of losing that success overwhelms them. And then it's sometimes it's easier to control a person who's been successful because they don't want to let this go. They don't wanna go back. They wanna move forward.

他们想要继续。所以我必须做些什么来确保自己——我的意思是，你在好莱坞看到这种情况。这在好莱坞是个大问题。人们开始做得好时就会恐慌，然后他们与其他做得好的人结盟，接着他们某种程度上改变了思维方式和行为方式，因为一切都取决于你是否被选中参与项目。所以你整个生活就像在琢磨你的社会地位是什么，如何提升它，以及，

They wanna continue. So what do I have to do to make sure that I'm I mean, you see this in Hollywood. It's a it's a big thing in Hollywood. People panic when they start doing well, and then they align themselves with other people doing well, and then they, like, kinda changes the way they think and the way they they behave because everything is dependent upon you being chosen for for things. So your your whole life is, like, wondering what your social status is and how you would how you advance that and, hey.

我该说什么？我今天该发什么推文才能确保大家都知道我站在正确的一边？

What do I have to say? What should I tweet today to make sure everybody knows I'm on the right side?

对。然后你就是在为不输而打，而不是为赢而打。这在体育中经常发生。比如，如果你是一支篮球队，一直主导比赛，在第四节领先8或10分，然后你开始保护领先优势。

And Right. Then you're playing not to lose. You're not playing to win. It happens all the time in sports. Like, if you're a basketball team and you've been dominating the game and you're up eight or 10 in the fourth quarter, then you start to protect the lead.

是的。不。你得到领先优势不是因为你在保护那该死的领先。你是通过侵略性来主导的。对。

Yes. No. You didn't get the lead because you're protecting the fucking lead. You were dominating with aggression. Right.

对吧？在我看来，预防性防守是体育策略中最糟糕的发明。对吧？你知道预防性防守吗？

Right? The moment it's like the prevent defense, in my opinion, is the worst thing ever created in sports strategy. Right? Like, you know, prevent defense?

我听说过，但我不确定

I've heard of it, but I don't know if

如果你是一支橄榄球队，在第四节领先14分或8分，然后你停止做那些让你取得领先的主导性事情，转而开始保护领先优势。所以你的防守后卫后撤。你开始允许8码、10码或12码的传球完成。现在你是在保护领先，而不是主导对手。但然后你让对手感受到他们的力量，感受到他们的伟大。

you're a football team and you're and you're you've you have a 14 lead in the fourth quarter or an eight point lead in the fourth quarter, and you stop doing the dominant things that got you the lead, but you start protecting the lead. So your defensive back sit back. You start allowing eight or 10 or 12 yard completions. It is now you're protecting the lead versus dominating the opponent. But then you let the opponent feel their strength, feel their greatness.

他们不再被主导了。他们就像——当一个拳击手停止感到被主导，开始挖掘自己的伟大时，那你他妈的对手就又变成猛兽了。

They they're not dominated anymore. They're like, you you a moment a fighter stops feeling dominated and starts to tap into their greatness, then your fucking opponent's a beast again.

没错。

Right.

对吧？我们经常看到这种情况。

Right? We see it all the time.

经常看到。

All the time.

没错。所以别他妈守着领先优势。要主宰局面。

Right. So don't protect the fucking lead. Dominate.

是啊。对吧？我...我做让你成功的那件事。

Yeah. Right? I I Do what brought you to the dance.

对。完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly.

只是...在生活中。我觉得你说的那个点非常关键，就是赢了之后害怕失去的那种心理。是的。没错。

It's just it's In life. I think that thing that you're talking about is very critical, that fear of losing once you've won. Yeah. Yeah.

在冲浪界这个现象很有意思。我观察到很多优秀的冲浪者都想学翼板冲浪，因为翼板冲浪能打开太多可能性。对吧？你可以在各种条件下玩翼板——混乱的海况、大洋、巨浪、小浪。简直资源太丰富了。

It's very interesting in the surf world. So many people I have observed who are great surfers, they want to learn to foil because foiling opens up so much. Right? You can foil all the time in different conditions and sloppy conditions and ocean, big big waves, small wave. It just is it's so abundant.

他们能看到这运动有多酷，但试一次就被虐得惨不忍睹。不管你冲浪技术多好都一样。我说的不是电动翼板，是浪板翼板冲浪。这些可不是高性能装备。

And they can see how epic it is, but then they try once and they get their ass kicked. It doesn't matter how good a surfer you are. Not talking about e foiling. I'm talking about, like, wave foiling. They're not high performance gear.

你都得经历两三个月的被虐期。不管你冲浪多厉害都没用。但现在你必须...必须重新像个初学者。如果你原本是社交圈里最酷的冲浪者，现在就得变成所谓的"菜鸟"，变成那个不断被虐、不停摔跤的人。对吧？

You're gonna have two, three months of ass kicking as part of it. It doesn't matter how good you are as a surfer. But now you have to, like, be you have to look like a beginner again. You have to be go from being, like, the coolest guy in the lineup if you're socialized to being the quote unquote kook, being the guy who's just getting his ass kicked, who's falling all the time. Right?

而他们不愿意那样做。所以那些优秀冲浪者的自尊心阻碍了他们学习这项技艺。他们想学，却又不愿在那些习惯看到自己出色表现的人面前，暂时显得笨拙。

And they don't wanna do that. So their ego of the excellent surfer prevents them from learning this art. They want to learn because they're unwilling to look bad for a while in front of the people who they're used to looking good with.

没错。他们太习惯保持酷炫形象了。

Right. They're so used to being cool.

所以水翼冲浪者形成了一个非常有趣的冲浪亚文化。这些人学会水翼冲浪，正是因为他们愿意接受挫折、不怕出丑。

So the the foilers are people who it's a very interesting microculture inside of surfing. Is it foilers have been people who learned how to how to foil because they were willing to get their ass kicked and looked bad.

还有没有其他让你如此兴奋的事物？比如，如果有一天你不能再玩水翼冲浪，你有备选计划吗？

Are there any other things that are exciting to you like that that you think of? Like, if one day you can't foil any longer, do you have, like, an escape strategy?

我没有备选计划。从来都没有。我从不制定所谓B计划。我就不是个准备B计划的人。我知道我可以重塑自我，但我深爱这门技艺，也热爱海洋。

I don't have an escape strategy. I never did. I never had, like, this is gonna be plan b. I've never been a plan b guy. I I I know I could recreate myself, but I I love this art profoundly, and I love being in the ocean.

这其中有种特殊魅力。对我而言，这不是关于摧毁什么或战胜谁。而是关于自我发现，在海洋这个元素中突破极限。而水翼板能如此强烈地汲取海洋能量。

Like, there's something about this. This is like to me also, this is not about destroying anything. It's not about beating anybody. It's about self discovery, pushing my limits in the ocean, which is an element. And and the foil taps into ocean energy so fucking potently.

另一方面，这项技艺正处于技术发展的早期阶段。水翼装备进步神速，那些真正处于性能前沿的玩家能驾驭这些越来越难操作的装备。最难驾驭的装备往往能完成最震撼的动作。随着装备对操控精度的要求越来越高，这种敏感度也被培养出来。世界上只有极少数人能用这种装备做到，这种感觉实在太超凡了。

And the other thing is that the the art is at such an early stage of technological growth. The foil gear is progressing so quickly, and the people who are actually at the bleeding edge of foil performance wise can ride this gear, which is increasingly difficult to ride. But the hardest gear to ride is the gear, which is can do the most epic shit. And so the sensitivity is like as the gear requires more and more sensitivity, the sensitivity is is cultivated. And fewer very few people in the world can can do it on this gear, and it's just so sublime.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我他妈的热爱这门技艺。哇。我没有B计划，但，谁知道未来会怎样呢？

So I'm so fucking in love with this art. Wow. I do not have a a plan b, but, know, fuck. Who knows what happens?

我特别喜欢看人们热爱某件事物的样子。

I love when people love things.

哦，我也是。

Oh, me too.

我最喜欢看的事情之一，就是看到人们完全沉浸在他们所做的事情中，为之着迷、热爱并享受这个过程。这非常令人上瘾，也非常鼓舞人心。它能给你带来一些东西。就像从观看那些对某件事真正充满热情的人身上学习，那种热情是如此具有感染力。

One of my favorite things to watch is people that are just absolutely engrossed in what they're doing and fascinated by it and in love with it and and on the journey. It's very addictive. It's very, inspirational. It gives you something. It's like there's there's something out of watching people and learning from people that are really, really passionate about something that's so contagious.

我从未如此热爱过一门技艺。就像，我这辈子真的他妈深深地热爱行进。你知道吗？翼板冲浪是第一位。我从未如此热爱过一门技艺。

I've never loved an art more. Like, I've loved to march really fucking deeply in my life. You know? Foiling is number one. I've never loved an art more.

嗯，也许是因为我正处在人生的这个阶段，我正在整合我从不同技艺中学到的一切，并将其融入这一项，而这一项正在展现所有的一切。但就日常体验而言，哦，是的，伙计。我是个疯子。我他妈就是爱它。

Well, maybe it's because I'm I'm I'm at this moment of life where I'm at, and I'm, like, integrating everything I've learned from different arts and bringing it into this one, and this one's manifesting all of it. But but in terms of, like, the day to day experience of it, oh, yeah, man. I'm I'm a lunatic. I fucking just just love it.

是啊，是啊。所以你不能——你必须住在海边。你完蛋了。

Yeah. Yeah. So you can't you have to live by the ocean. You're fucked.

我是。那太美了。我住的地方正是丛林与海洋相遇之处。

I do. That's that's beautiful. I live right where the jungle meets the ocean.

在我们结束之前你告诉我，你之前跟我讲过一个遇到鳄鱼的经历。

You were telling me before we wrap this up, you were telling me about a crocodile encounter.

哦，是的。那是在我开始玩翼板冲浪之前，我当时在冲浪。那是早上5点，我那天要飞回纽约。所以我就出去，在日出前，正好日出时分冲了个浪。我当时在一个玻璃般平滑、齐头高的浪上，然后这根疙疙瘩瘩的木头突然出现在我面前，这他妈的一块木头。

Oh, yeah. That was before I started, before I started foiling, I was surfing. And I it was, like, 5AM, and I was I was flying back to New York that day. So I went out for, like, a just pre sunrise, right at sunrise surf. And I was on this glassy, like, head high wave, and this, gnarled log came up in front of me, this piece of fucking wood.

我看到了它，撞上它然后跳开了。它就在我面前冒出来。我不知道我怎么没看见它。我以为是一棵大树。当我掉进水里时，我的大脑还在想是木头，但这太有趣了。

And I saw it, and I hit it and jumped off. It just emerged right in front of me. I didn't know how I didn't see it. Like, I thought it was a big tree. And when I hit the water, my brain was still thinking log, but my it was so interesting.

我的我的我的我的皮肤瞬间起了鸡皮疙瘩，我才意识到，就像，红色警报，像是史前危险。我跳回我的冲浪板上，然后这条大概十、十一英尺长的鳄鱼就在离我几英尺远的地方游过。太有趣了。哇。因为我这辈子，我从六岁起就花了很多时间自由潜水、用夏威夷弹射叉（像水下弓箭一样）鱼枪捕鱼、进行深水潜水。

My my my my skin lit up goosebumps, I just realized, like, like, red alert, like, prehistoric danger. And I jumped back on my board, and this, like, a ten, eleven foot croc came swimming just a few a few feet away from me. It was so interesting. Woah. Because I spent my life like, I spent a lot of since I was six years old, I've been freediving, spearfishing with a Hawaiian swing Hawaiian sling, like, bow and arrow underwater, deep deep water diving.

比如，我我见过成千上万的鲨鱼，但这感觉完全不同。鳄鱼的能量场很特别，我不了解鳄鱼。我熟悉鲨鱼，但不了解鳄鱼。而且鳄鱼的行为非常狂野。

Like, I I spent tens of thousands of sharks, but this was so different. Like, croc energy, and I haven't I don't know crocs. Like, I know sharks. I don't know crocs. And Crocs are acting wild.

是为了吃你。鲨鱼，很多人认为鲨鱼攻击人类是因为人类侵入了它们的领地，它们不欢迎人类在那里。是的，比如当人类干扰它们的猎食区域时，它们就会攻击。我听过这种说法，觉得挺有道理的。

To eat you. Sharks, a lot I mean, there's a lot of people that believe that sharks are attacking people because the people are where the sharks are, and they don't want the people there. Yeah. You know, like, when they're they're interfering with their hunting grounds, and they attack people in that regard. I've heard people say that, and I'm like, oh, that kinda resonates.

这说得通。但鳄鱼不同，它们纯粹是在猎食一切。如果你在那里，你就是菜单上的一道菜。它们极具攻击性。

That makes sense. But crocodiles are different. They're just hunting everything. And if you're there, you're on the menu. They're hyper aggressive.

它们与短吻鳄非常不同，短吻鳄也很危险，但鳄鱼明显更危险、更具攻击性。

They're very different than alligators, which are also very dangerous, but crocodiles are significantly more dangerous and more aggressive.

我觉得很有趣。当我跳进水里时，我的身体突然警觉起来，就像和水里的恐龙在一起，然后它出现了。有趣的是我的身体——这说明了直觉的本质，对吧？因为我的大脑还以为是根木头。

My it was interesting. When I hit the water, my body lit up like, like I was in the water with a dinosaur, and then it came up. And it's interesting that my body this speaks to the nature of the intuition. Right? Because my mind still thought it was a log.

我跳进水里，某种能量上的感觉告诉我：快他妈离开。然后它游到我旁边。那种吻部和眼睛的感觉，它就这么过来了，接着又一个大浪打来。

I hit the water. Something energetically told me something. Get the fuck out. And then it came swimming right up next to me. And, like, the feeling of the snout, the eyes, like, it just came and then a big another wave was coming in.

我我设法浮起来，乘着下一个浪回到了海滩。是啊，不过，也许如果我知道

I I managed to just pop up and ride the next wave to the beach. Yeah. But, yeah, maybe if I knew the

那可能就是我最后一天玩冲浪了。

been the last day I foiled.

嗯，也许，如果我能懂鳄鱼的语言，就像懂鲨鱼的语言一样。

Well, maybe, like, if I knew the language of Crocs, like, know language of show.

语言。杀戮、捕食、吃掉。我不——那就是它们的语言。

Language. Murder, kill, eat. I don't That's the language.

也许存在一种内部语言。

Maybe there's an internal language.

我不相信这是真的。我认为它们是海洋和陆地的废物管理者。我的意思是，它们的存在是为了确保任何失误、任何靠得太近、任何搞砸了的生物——那些不注意水中涟漪的生物——都会成为一顿美餐。它们负责清理。它们是清洁队。

I do not believe that's true. I think they are they are the waste management of the ocean and of the ground. I mean, they are there to make sure that anything that slips, anything that gets too close, anything that fucks up, it doesn't pay attention to the ripples in the water, that's a meal. They they clean up. They're the cleaning crew.

它们确保系统中没有弱点，它们吞噬一切，并且永生不死。这才是最疯狂的地方。就像早期探险中发现的那些，当时人们谈论可能有四十多英尺长的鳄鱼，很可能是真的，因为鳄鱼不会老死。它们没有像二十年这样的寿命限制。它们会一直生长。

They make sure that there's no weakness in the system, and they devour, and they live forever. That's the crazy thing. It's like the ones that they spotted in the early journeys when they were talking about, like, there's talks of forty forty foot plus crocodiles probably were real because crocodiles don't die of old age. They don't have, like, a twenty year lifespan. They just keep growing.

如果一条鳄鱼在人类有枪之前就活着，而且它们不在人类的菜单上，你可以想象它们能活几百年，几百年间以鹿、角马、任何搞砸了的动物、羚羊、任何它们能抓到的生物为食，然后不断长大。我认为它们可能是巨大无比、生活在人类中间的超级掠食者恐龙。是的，我有个朋友是职业猎人吉姆·肖基，他曾被派往非洲，因为某个村庄正遭受鳄鱼袭击。所以他们雇了猎人去猎杀这些鳄鱼。

And if a crocodile lived before people had guns and, you know, they weren't on the menu, and you gotta imagine they could live hundreds of years, hundreds of years eating deer and wildebeest and anything that fucked up, antelopes, anything that fucked up, anything they can get ahold of, and they just keep growing. I think they could be enormous, enormous, enormous super predator dinosaurs that live amongst people. Yeah. I have a friend of mine who's a professional hunter, Jim Shockey, and he was flown to Africa because this particular village was being targeted by crocodiles. So they they hired hunters to hunt these crocodiles.

他说在那里的时候，遇到的每个人身上都有被咬掉的肉块。人们缺手缺脚。他在那里期间，村里的一名妇女被拖走了。他们在水中设置了木桩，防止鳄鱼进入他们取水、洗衣服和做其他事情的区域。

And while he was there, he said, everyone you would meet had a chunk taken out of them. People were missing hands. Some people were missing feet. And while while he was there, one of the women in the village got taken. And, they would set up these posts in the water so that the crocodiles couldn't get through to this one area where they would gather water and wash clothes and do things.

鳄鱼已经摸清了这个情况，所以它们会上岸，然后进入有木桩的水域等待他们。唉。唉。唉。

The crocodiles had figured this out, so they went onto the shore, and then they would go into the water where the posts are and wait for them. Oof. Oof. Oof.

是的。所以相对于鳄鱼，你感受到的那种谦卑和危险感...是的，我对人工智能也有同样的感觉，相对于它操纵人类的能力，除非我们把容易被操纵当作一种生活方式。就像，我能切身感受到这种威胁。

Yeah. So the feeling of humility and danger that you have relative to crocs Yeah. I have about AI relative to the ability to manipulate humans unless we take on our ability to be manipulated as a way of life. Like, I feel it, like, that much in my skin.

我认为你是对的。是的。我认为你是对的。我认为这将是一段极其、极其具有挑战性的历史时期，而且我不认为我们中最聪明的人能真正预测结果。

I think you're correct. Yeah. I think you're correct. I think it's gonna be an incredibly, incredibly challenging time in history and, one that, I don't think the brightest amongst us can truly predict the outcome.

我想提出另一点，我认为当我们谈论作为决策者的训练时，你在某件事上做得多好并不重要。重要的是你正在路上。你正在旅程中。比如说人们开始下国际象棋。你棋艺高超与否，或者水平好坏，都不重要。

I wanna make one other point, which is that I think that when we talk about, like, training as decision makers, it doesn't matter how good you are at something. It matters that you're on the road. You're on the journey. So let's just say people started to play chess. It doesn't matter how strong a chess player you are or if you're good or if you suck.

那不重要。这是一个旅程。对吧？如果你把自己放在任何客观的竞技场上，尽最大努力，并且有一个反馈循环，比如柔术垫，或者任何对你来说类似的东西。你审视自己决策的质量，记下原因，愿意改变想法，并把这种训练当作一种生活方式，那么你就走上了... 像今天我们所不具备的那种脚踏实地的道路。

That doesn't matter. It's a journey. Right? If you're if you're if you're putting yourself in any arena that's objective and you're trying your hardest and you have a feedback loop like the mats, like the jujitsu mats, whatever they are for you. And you look at the quality of your decisions and you jot down why and you are willing to change your mind and you take on that training as a way of life, then you're you're on the the road to, like, being grounded in in, like, in a way that we're not today.

我认为，在我们的过程中扎根于现实、脚踏实地，是我们能够在一个一切都被超级智能不断解构的世界中航行的关键，因为我们需要重新创造自己。但我们必须知道如何去做，就像当你深入一门艺术时，比如想想你对MMA的了解。你对真相在哪里有一种直觉，对吧？你能感觉到它在哪里。

And I think that being grounded in reality, in something, like feeling the earth beneath our feet in our process, is a big part of how we're going to be able to navigate a world where everything is being deconstructed all the time by superior intelligence because we're gonna need to recreate ourselves. But we have to have you know how, like, when you're deep into an art, like, think about you with your knowledge of of MMA. Like, you have this intuition about where the truth is. Right? You have a sense for where it is.

对吧？在一个日益混乱的世界中，我们需要培养那种感觉。我确实觉得，参与某种讲真话的领域，无论是什么，都是极其重要的实践。然后，把训练的艺术作为一种生活方式，我觉得这是我们的一种方式，而且，再加上彻底远离社交媒体。

Right? We need to cultivate that sense in in an increasingly chaotic world. And I do feel that that, like, being involved in some kind of truth telling arena, whatever it is, is a hugely important practice. And then taking on the art of training as a way of life is I feel like it's one of our and and, like, that combined with getting the fuck off social media.

非常糟糕。是的。建议。

Really bad. Yeah. Advice.

是的。那是我的

Yeah. That's my

谢谢你，乔希。我的推介。非常有趣。

Thank you, Josh. My pitch. It was a lot of fun.

非常感谢。

Really appreciate it.

这太棒了。是的。真的很兴奋能做这个，也很高兴认识你。所以，是的。非常感谢你。

This was great. Yeah. Was really excited to do this and really happy to meet you. So Yeah. Really appreciate you.

太棒了，吉姆。

Awesome, Jim.

谢谢你联系我们。

Thanks for reaching out there.

我的荣幸。好了。大家再见。在社交媒体上找不到我。别找了。

My pleasure. Alright. Bye, everybody. Can't find on social media. Don't look.