#2352 - 詹姆斯·塔拉里科

现在，它确实有潜力成为一个人。

now Well, certainly has a potential to be a person.

对吧？

Right?

而且，从生物学上讲，胎儿确实是活的。

Well, and a fetus is alive in terms of just biologically alive.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们体内现在确实有数万亿个活的生物体。

But we we do have literally trillions of living organisms in us right now.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

但它们没有潜力成长为一个完整的人类

But they don't have the potential to be a full grown human

生命。

being.

当然。

Absolutely.

但问题是，胎儿或胚胎是否是一个拥有完全法律权利、且凌驾于女性权利之上的人？

But the question is, is a fetus or is an embryo a person with full legal rights that trump the rights of a woman?

因为，正如你提到的，如果是一个16岁的被强奸女孩，那个胚胎或胎儿，它的权利是否应该凌驾于这个女孩的权利之上？

Because if or a girl, as you mentioned, because if you're if you're a 16 year old girl who's been raped, does that embryo or that fetus, does it have, does its rights trump the rights of that girl?

对。

Right.

我只是说，不，我认为大多数美国人也这么认为，这暴露了胎儿人格权缺乏广泛支持。

And I just, I say no, I think most Americans say no, and to me that exposes kind of the lack of support for fetal personhood.

我们当然可以讨论堕胎的限制等问题，但我确实认为，大多数美国人清楚地认为，女性或女孩应该有权自主决定自己身体的事务。

Again, we can have conversations about limits to abortion, all those things, but I I I do think it's clear that most Americans believe that a woman or a girl should have the autonomy to make those decisions about their own body.

我认为大多数美国人可能同意这一点，但我也认为，大多数美国人对晚期堕胎这个概念感到非常不安。

I think most Americans probably would agree with that, but I think also most Americans are very uncomfortable with the concept of late term abortions.

当然。

Sure.

是的

Yeah.

而且我认为

And I would

说，你对晚期堕胎有什么看法？

say What is your what are your thoughts on late term abortions?

我认为，如果你查看数据，晚期堕胎几乎都是为了挽救母亲的生命。

Well, I think if you look at the data, the late term abortions that happen are almost exclusively to save the life of the mother.

因为，你现在谈论的是那些已经为孩子取好名字、买好婴儿床的人

Because, I mean, now you're talking about people who have picked out a name, who have bought a crib

嗯

Mhmm.

那些渴望这个孩子的父母。

People who want this baby.

所以，这种情况发生的唯一原因就是出于即刻威胁生命的医疗原因。

And so the only time this happens is is for is for, you know, immediate life threatening medical reasons.

对。

Right.

但那也有例外。

But there there are exceptions to that.

对吧？

Right?

确实有人会改变主意。

There are people that change their mind.

而且，我认为在罗伊诉韦德案中，有一个法律框架允许各州对堕胎的监管做出决定。

Well and and I, you know, I think within Roe versus Wade, there was a legal framework for states to be able to make decisions about how you regulate abortion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，如果一个州决定禁止非医疗必要的晚期堕胎，而这类情况确实发生，那么这在罗伊诉韦德案的框架内是完全合理的。

And so if a state decides that they wanted to ban elective late term abortions, if those things happen, then that was completely fine within the framework of Roe versus Wade.

但我们并没有进行这样的讨论。

But we're not having that conversation.

对吧？

Right?

我们现在讨论的是全面禁止堕胎的极端措施。

We're having a conversation about a total extreme ban on abortion.

但罗伊诉韦德案，

But but Roe versus Wade,

不过罗伊诉韦德案就是罗伊诉韦德案。

versus Wade though though, was Roe versus Wade.

问题在于这是联邦层面的裁定，本应由各州自行决定。

The the issue was that it was a federal thing and that it was supposed to be up to the states to make their own decisions.

对吧？

Right?

那么德克萨斯州是怎么通过一项六周禁令的呢？我记得是六周，对吧？这时间太早了，很多女性那时甚至还没意识到自己怀孕。

So how did it get passed in Texas that it was I think it's six weeks, right, which is very early, which is point where a lot of women don't even realize that they're pregnant.

而且，最初通过的是这项禁令，但德克萨斯州还有一项触发法案：一旦罗伊诉韦德案被推翻——而它确实被推翻了——德克萨斯州将自动全面禁止堕胎。

Well, and this and that was the the original ban that that passed, but then Texas had a trigger law in place, which was if Roe v Wade is overturned, which it was, then Texas would automatically ban abortion in all cases.

所以不再是一周一周地逐步推进了。

So no longer a week, a week by week framework.

这是一场全面禁止。

It was a total ban.

所以最初实施了那项禁令，但后来由于罗伊案被推翻，它被一项全面禁令所取代。

So there was that original ban that went into place, but then that was because Roe was overturned, was then replaced by a total ban.

因此，在德克萨斯州，我们完全无视了这场对话中的任何灰色地带。

So in Texas, again, we're not recognizing any of the shades of gray in this conversation.

这是全国最极端的禁令，我们已经看到了它带来的毁灭性后果。

It is the most extreme ban in the country, and we've seen the devastating consequences of it.

我们看到德克萨斯州的女性被迫在急诊室停车场等待，直到感染败血症。

We saw Texas women who were forced to wait in emergency room parking lots until they went into sepsis.

我们还看到女性被禁止使用州际公路前往其他州进行堕胎。

I mean, we've seen women banned from using public highways to travel out of state to get an abortion.

我的意思是，他们在卢博克所做的正是试图阻止女性使用公共公路。

I mean, that's what they were just trying to do in Lubbock was prevent women from using public highways.

但还有一件事，他们试图追究那些前往其他州的女性的责任。

But there was also a thing where they were trying to go after women that traveled to other states.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yes.

而且即使没有任何证据，比如，如果一位女性去探望公婆或父母，然后发生了流产。

And and even if there was no evidence, like, say if a woman travels to see her in laws or her her parents or something like that and then has a miscarriage.

对。

Right.

对我来说，这非常令人不安：如果这位女性去了一个堕胎合法的地方，然后失去了孩子，即使她根本没有堕胎，也会被指控。

That was that to me was very creepy that if this woman had traveled somewhere where abortion is legal and then lost her baby, they would then be accused even if they had not had an abortion.

他们会受到质询，这在我看来极其缺乏同理心，尤其是考虑到这些女性中有些人根本就没有堕胎。

They would be questioned, and that to me is incredibly insensitive, especially when you take into consideration that some of these women might not have had abortions at all.

她们可能只是自然流产了，而这种情况其实相当常见。

They might have just lost the baby, which happens quite often where there are miscarriages.

你提到流产这件事很有趣，因为如果我试着站在对方的角度，假设他们出于善意，认真倾听他们这一方的合理论点的话。

It's it's interesting you bring up miscarriages because, you know, if I'm, again, trying to take people at their word, trying to assume the best intentions, and hear a good faith argument on the other side of this.

如果我的关注点是胚胎或胎儿的生命，那么对这种生命最大的威胁其实是流产。

If my concern is with the life of an embryo or the life of a fetus, the greatest threat to that life is a miscarriage.

我的意思是，如果你关心的是我们失去了多少胚胎或胎儿，那么与流产相比，堕胎导致的损失数量简直微不足道。

I mean, if your concern is how many embryos or fetuses we're losing, the number that we lose to miscarriage versus the number we lose to abortion, I mean, it's dwarfed.

所以我一直很好奇，为什么生命权运动对如何预防更多流产这件事没有更积极的关注。

And so I'm always interested why the pro life movement is not more interested in figuring out how we prevent more miscarriages.

因为如果你们的关切点确实是胚胎生命，那么找到方法预防流产似乎是更合理的方向，而我们其实已经有行之有效的做法，对吧？

Because if again, if your concern is that embryonic life seems like finding ways to prevent miscarriage, which we have best practices that can do it, right?

确保孕妇从怀孕开始就能获得医疗保险覆盖。

Making sure people are covered by health insurance once their pregnancy starts.

我的意思是，这正是预防流产的巨大契机。

I mean, that is a huge opportunity to prevent miscarriages.

你不可能完全阻止所有流产，但确实有一些措施可以帮助减少发生。

You're not gonna prevent all of them, but there are things we could do to stop it.

因此，所有关注都集中在堕胎上，而不是这些我们或许都能达成共识的其他事情上，这让我对一些推动这些禁令的政治人物和活动人士的真实动机产生了怀疑。

And so the fact that all the attention is on abortion rather than on some of these other things that maybe we could all agree on, to me, again, it makes me suspicious about the true motives of some of these politicians and some of these activists who are pushing some of these bans.

因为这似乎并不关乎孩子。

Because it doesn't seem like it's about children.

这似乎也不关乎母亲、女性和女孩。

It doesn't seem like it's about mothers and women and girls.

这确实关乎控制。

It does seem like it's about control.

我认为，在这个基督教民族主义运动中，我们看到的就是对人们身体自主权的控制、对阅读内容的控制、对学习内容的控制、对旅行地点的控制。

And I think that's what we see across this Christian nationalist movement is controlling what you do with your own body, controlling what you read, controlling what you learn, controlling where you travel.

这正是宗教最糟糕的一面。

I mean, this is religion at its worst.

是的。

Right.

它试图控制人们的行为和选择。

It's trying to control people and what they do.

你如何定义基督教民族主义？

How do you define Christian nationalism?

对你来说，那是什么？

What is that to you?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为有多种方式可以描述它。

So I think there's lots of different ways you could describe it.

我给它的定义稍微宽泛一些。

The way I define it is a little broader.

我说，基督教民族主义是以基督的名义对权力的崇拜，无论是社会权力、经济权力还是政治权力。

I say Christian nationalism is the worship of power, whether it's social power, economic power, political power, the name of Christ.

我认为这样描述它很有意义，因为从基督教教会诞生之初，我们就一直在与这个问题作斗争。

And I think it's relevant to describe it this way because it's something we've struggled with within the Christian church from the very beginning.

所以，耶稣的首批追随者甚至不称自己为基督徒。

So the first followers of Jesus didn't even call themselves Christians.

他们称自己为‘道’，因为他们的被钉十字架的老师教导他们一种不同的为人方式，一种与他人相处、理解与邻舍和上帝关系的不同方式。

They called themselves the way, because their crucified teacher had taught them a different way of being human, a different way of relating to other people, of understanding your relationship to neighbor and to God.

这彻底改变了他们。

And this transformed them.

圣经描述他们为一群独特的人，因为他们不参与经济、军队和文化。

They became these peculiar people is how the Bible describes it, because they didn't participate in the economy, the military, the culture.

他们因颠覆了世界而遭到迫害。

They were persecuted because they turned the world upside down.

再次说明，这正是《使徒行传》中的描述。

Again, that's how it's described in Acts.

但在那之后三百年，罗马帝国钉死耶稣之后，君士坦丁大帝将基督教定为这个同一帝国的国教，就是那个钉死耶稣的帝国。

But 300 after that, after the Roman Empire crucified Jesus, Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of that very same empire, the same empire that crucified Jesus.

所以，三百年后，基督教成了这个帝国、西方文明的官方支持者。

So this is three hundred years later, and now Christianity is the official sponsor of of the empire, of Western civilization.

你认为君士坦丁是真正意义上的基督徒吗？还是他只是在利用基督教？

Do you think Constantine was a Christian, like, legitimately, or do you think that he was using it?

要判断政客的真实想法总是很难的，而我本人也是一名政客。

It's always hard to tell, with politicians, and I say this as a politician myself.

君士坦丁什么时候受洗的？

When was Constantine baptized?

他受洗的时间我不记得具体年份了，但他在一场决定性战役前看到了异象，当时他看见了十字架，并决定让士兵们把十字架作为他们的徽章。

Well, he was baptized I don't know the year, but he was baptized after he had this this vision before a decisive battle when he saw the cross and and decided, that his soldiers would put the cross as part of their emblem.

然后他们赢了那场战役，对吧？你知道，谁也不知道这是否真的和他的异象有关。

And then they won that battle, right, which, you know, who knows if it was because of his vision or not.

但这开启了一种趋势，我们整整一千五百多年都在与之斗争——有权势的人，比如皇帝、亿万富翁、独裁者、大型教会牧师，都利用宗教来保护自己的财富和权力。

But it started a trend, which we've struggled with for literally, you know, more than fifteen hundred years of powerful people, emperors, billionaires, dictators, megachurch pastors using religion to protect their own wealth and power.

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，基督教民族主义不过是这种趋势的最新表现，无论是《十诫》法案，还是我也不知道你有没有读过——我们通过的一项允许学校用未经培训、无人监督的宗教牧师取代学校辅导员的法案。

And to me, Christian nationalism is just the latest iteration of that, whether it's the 10 commandments bill, whether it's the bill, I don't know if you if you read about this, a bill that we passed that allows schools to replace school counselors with untrained, unsupervised religious chaplains.

有时候，有些人上网五分钟就能成为牧师。

Sometimes people who go online and become a chaplain within, you know, five minutes.

你知道，这对我来说再次是基督教民族主义的一个例子。

You know, that to me again is an example of Christian nationalism.

它在利用国家权力。

It's using the state.

它在利用政治权力来抬高一种宗教传统，压倒其他所有宗教。

It's using political power to elevate one religious tradition over all the others.

它在利用政府权力来支配我们的邻居，而不是像爱自己一样爱他们，而这正是我们作为基督徒被呼召去做的。

It's using governmental power to dominate our neighbors instead of loving them as ourselves, which is exactly what we're called to do as Christians.

当然，最近我们看到了一项法案，该法案削减了德克萨斯州公立学校的资金，转而补贴私立基督教学校。

And then, of course, most recently, we saw this bill that defunded public schools here in Texas to subsidize private Christian schools.

对我来说，这又是一项 squarely 处于基督教民族主义运动核心的法案，旨在侵蚀政教分离，并强迫每个人接受某种特定的基督教解释，违背他们的意愿。

And to me, again, that is a bill that's right in the middle of this Christian nationalist movement to erode the separation of church and state and, force a certain interpretation of Christianity on everybody against their wills.

是的。

Yeah.

有一种说法认为，这是一个基督教国家。

There's this this narrative that this is a Christian nation.

这当然是真的。

This is Sure.

它最初是一个基督教国家。

It was founded as a Christian nation.

我认为他们确实会引用这一点。

And I think they they call upon that Yeah.

当他们做出这些决定并以这种方式谈论时。

When they're making these decisions and talking about it in this very particular way.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为没有人会否认基督教在建国时具有影响力，而且至今仍很有影响力。

And and I think no no one would disagree that Christianity was was influential in the founding of this country, and it's still influential.

我的意思是，它渗透在我们的文化、政治之中。

I mean, it's suffused throughout our culture, our politics.

它是作为国家的我们身份的核心部分。

It is a central part of who we are as a nation.

但我认为非常重要的是要澄清，我们并不是作为一个基督教国家建立的。

But I think it's really important to clarify that we were not founded as a Christian nation.

我们建立的是一个每个人都可以自由信仰基督教、犹太教、伊斯兰教、锡克教、佛教或无神论的国家。

We were founded as a nation where you are free to be a Christian or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Sikh, or a Buddhist, an atheist.

我的意思是，美国的承诺就在于我们是一个多元文化的熔炉，没有人被要求必须如何祈祷，也没有任何宗教被置于其他宗教之上。

I mean, that is the that's the promise of America is that we are this multicultural melting pot where no no one is told how to pray, and no religion is elevated over the others.

还有一点很重要，那就是‘效忠誓词’中加入‘上帝之下’这一表述，是在共产主义成为美国问题之后才出现的。

It's also important to point out that it wasn't in the pledge of allegiance until communism was an issue in this country.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，公平地说，《独立宣言》确实提到了造物主，虽然它并没有明确提及基督教的上帝，但确实提到了造物主。

And and, you know, to be fair, the the declaration of independence does mention a creator, and now it doesn't necessarily mention the Christian God, but it does mention a creator.

这可能是为了减少宗派性，更加开放而有意为之的。

Think probably in a deliberate attempt to be less sectarian and more open.

我的意思是，如果我们坦诚面对，我们的许多开国元勋其实根本不是宗教信徒，比如托马斯·潘恩。

I mean, a lot of our founders, if we're being honest, some of them weren't religious at all, Thomas Paine.

而且他们中的许多人并不符合我们今天所认为的基督徒标准。

And then a lot of them weren't really what we would consider Christians today.

他们中的许多人是自然神论者，认为上帝是一位冷漠的钟表匠，创造了宇宙后便抽身离去。

A lot of them were deists, where they saw God as this impersonal clockmaker who created the universe and stepped away.

钟表匠。

Clockmaker.

我并不是说我是不

And I'm not I'm not

这种描述方式很有趣。

That's an interesting way of describing it.

而且我并不是在贬低这一点。

Well, and I'm not I'm not casting aspersion that.

是的。

Yeah.

你从哪里想到这个说法的？

Where did you come up with that?

我认为这就是上帝会如何描述它的。

I think this is this is how Deus would describe it.

因为宇宙被描述为一个钟表匠？

Because the universe describe it as a clockmaker?

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

宇宙是这样的，这是因为他们是启蒙时代的思想家，所以他们对物理学和自然科学着迷。

That the universe is and and it's because they were enlightenment thinkers, so they they were enthralled by physics and and the natural sciences scientists.

他们看到宇宙以一种完美的方式组合在一起，几乎就像钟表一样。

And they saw that the universe fit together in this perfect way, almost like a clock or a watch.

因此，他们认为上帝是一位钟表匠，创造了宇宙后便退居幕后。

And so they assumed that God was this watchmaker, this clockmaker, and then kind of stepped away from God's creation.

这是一种非常不同的观点。

That is a very different view.

这种观点并不无效。

It's not an invalid view.

我并不是想贬低这种观点，但它与今天许多基督徒的看法非常不同，后者与上帝有个人关系，并感受到上帝在我们生活和世界中的介入。

I don't mean to cast aspersions on that view, but it's very different than a lot of Christians today who have a personal relationship with God and feel God's intervention our lives and in our world.

因此，这些是非常不同的宗教观念。

And so those very different kinds of religious.

因此，今天的基督教民族主义者声称我们的开国元勋是这些福音派新教基督徒，这在历史上并不完全准确。

And so for Christian nationalists today to say that our founders were these evangelical Protestant Christians is is just not quite historically accurate.

这些是启蒙时代的思想家。

These were enlightenment thinkers.

他们对宗教本身抱有疑虑。

They had their own suspicions of religion.

比如托马斯·杰斐逊就编纂了自己的《圣经》，把所有神迹都删掉了。

I mean, Thomas Jefferson created his own bible where he took out all the miracles.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

他同时也拥有奴隶。

He also owned slaves.

嗯，确实如此。

Well yeah.

我的意思是，这些人都有

I mean and then all these guys had

相当反基督教。

Pretty anti Christian.

我也是这么认为的。

I would say so.

但再次强调，基督教曾被用来为奴隶制辩护。

But, again, Christianity was used to justify slavery.

同时，它也被废奴主义者用来推翻奴隶制。

It was also used by abolitionists to tear it down.

对吧？

Right?

基督教被布勒·康纳和南方的白人官员用来维持吉姆·克劳法。

Christianity was used by Bull Connor and white officials in the South to maintain Jim Crow.

它也被马丁·路德·金博士所使用。

And it was also used by Doctor.

金博士和民权运动用它来推翻那个制度。

King and the civil rights movement to tear down that system.

所以，

So,

信仰，其实掌握在使用者手中。

faith, it's really in the the hands of the user.

它既可以用来对人们造成巨大伤害，也可以用来推动我们走向一个更加公正和充满爱的世界。

It can be used to do a lot of damage to people, but it can also be used to move us toward a more just and and loving world.

这就变得有点奇怪了。

That's where it gets weird.

对吧？

Right?

我们需要这样一个人，他能以对所有人都有益的方式诠释信仰，而不是为了个人利益、自己的意识形态或想推广的叙事。

It's like we need someone who interprets faith in a way that is beneficial for all and not personally beneficial or beneficial to their ideology or the narrative that they're trying to push.

对吧？

Right?

而且，如果我保持最乐观的心态，老实说

Well, and I honestly think if I'm being my most hopeful self

是的。

Yeah.

我认为Z世代和千禧一代的年轻人将会带领我们走出这个困境。

That Gen Z and and millennials, young people are gonna be the ones to lead us out of this.

为什么？

Because Why?

因为，让我想想，是因为TikTok吗？

Because let me because of the TikTok?

不。

No.

因为TikTok。

Because of the TikTok.

因为他们沉迷于电子游戏？

Because they're addicted to video games?

因为

Because

比如，什么是

Like, what is

呢？

it?

因为幻灭中蕴含着力量。

Because there is power in disillusionment.

好的。

Okay.

因为那是肥沃的土壤。

Because that's fertile ground.

所以让我好吧。

So let me Okay.

让我退一步说。

Let me back up.

在我的信仰传统中，耶稣不仅仅是一位伟大的导师。

So in my faith tradition, Jesus is not not just a great teacher.

耶稣是宇宙模式的化身。

Jesus is the embodiment of the pattern of the universe.

对吧？

Right?

这真是玄乎的东西。

This is trippy stuff.

我喜欢玄乎的东西。

I like trippy stuff.

是的

Yeah.

在他的人格、生命、死亡和教诲中，我们 somehow 了解到关于上帝、这终极现实的一些东西。

He, in his person, his life, his death, his teachings, that we somehow learn something about God, this ultimate reality.

而耶稣的生命，根据我们的传统，关键节点是道成肉身，也就是圣诞节，对吧？

And Jesus' life, again, our tradition, the milestones are incarnation, that's Christmas, right?

当上帝取了人的形体。

When God takes human form.

顺便说一句，道成肉身并不仅限于耶稣，它适用于每一个人，对吧？

Incarnation by the way, is not just limited to Jesus, it's everybody, right?

每个人都承载着神圣的形象，对吧？

Everybody bears the image of the sacred, right?

乔·罗根如此，詹姆斯·塔拉里科如此，这个播客的每一位听众也都承载着神圣的形象，是按上帝的形象所造——这是一种激进的观点。

Joe Rogan does, James Talarico does, every listener to this podcast bears the image of the sacred, made in the image of God, a radical view.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就是道成肉身。

So that's incarnation.

第二是钉十字架。

The second is crucifixion.

对吧？

Right?

那就是受难日，耶稣因为挑战权势而被钉在十字架上，与其它罪犯一样遭受羞辱的死亡。

That's Good Friday, where Jesus, because he confronts the powerful, is executed on a cross, a humiliating death along with other criminals.

然后最后一步是复活。

And then the last step is resurrection.

从那些灰烬中，有崭新而美好的事物诞生。

That's something new and beautiful rises from those ashes.

所以这三件事——道成肉身、钉十字架、复活——就是宇宙的模式。

So those three things, incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, that's the pattern of the universe.

再暂时把宗教放一边。

Again, just take religion out of it for a second.

我们不妨从物理学家或生物学家的角度来思考：创造、毁灭、再创造。

Let's just think like a physicist or a biologist, creation, destruction, recreation.

我的意思是，这正是物理宇宙的故事。

I mean, that is the story of the physical universe.

这也是我们人生的写照，对吧？

It's the story of our lives, right?

我们所有人都终将面对生命尽头的那堵砖墙，对吧？

That we are all headed toward a brick wall at the end of this, right?

有出生，有死亡，也有重生。

There is birth, death, rebirth.

印度教徒会说这是轮回，对吧？

Hindus would say reincarnation, right?

这种现实的模式在各种传统中都被认可。

This pattern of reality is something that's recognized across traditions.

我之所以说这些，是为了回应你的问题，因为无论哪种信仰，我们最初都经历秩序、混乱，然后如果能走到最后一步，便是重新有序。

I say all this in response to your question, because all of us in our faith start off with order, disorder, and then reorder, if we get to that last step.

我们每个人都从父母那里继承了一种信仰。

All of us kind of inherited a faith from our parents.

这种信仰通常相当稳定。

It was usually pretty stable.

我们从不提问，而且它让人感到安心，对吧？

We didn't ask any questions and it was comforting, right?

你在最好的意义上显得孩子气，纯真无邪。

You were childish in the best sense of that word, innocent.

你长大后，经历了各种事情，遇见了新的人，接触了新的思想。

You grow up, you have experiences, you meet new people, you're exposed to new ideas.

突然间，你开始质疑所有那些被教导过的东西，于是你陷入了混乱与幻灭，对吧？

Suddenly you start to question all those things that you were taught And now you have disorder, disillusionment, right?

也许我所被告知的并不真实，也许这一切并不对，也许我必须质疑一切。

That maybe what I was told wasn't real, and maybe this isn't right, maybe I've gotta question everything.

这是健康且至关重要的。

And that's healthy and essential.

你需要这种钉死在十字架上的经历，来打破之前的一切。

You need that crucifixion to break apart what was there before.

第三步——复活、轮回、重生、重组，无论你怎么描述它，在我看来，我们正站在这个转折点上。

That third step of resurrection, reincarnation, rebirth, reorder, however you wanna describe it, to me, it feels like that's what we're on the precipice of.

尤其是年轻人，他们确实在提出这些问题，因为历史上在每一个重大议题上，年轻人通常都能跳出框架，以全新的视角看待事物。

And it does feel like young people in particular are the ones that are asking these questions because young people have always, on every major issue, have usually been the ones who have been able to kind of think outside the box and see things anew.

但很明显，他们正在意识到有组织的宗教有多么破碎，他们开始渴望更宏大、更美好、更真实、更诚实的东西。

But it does feel like they are waking up to how broken organized religion is, and they are starting to yearn for something bigger and something better and something that's more true and more honest.

我整天都能听到人们的声音，不仅在TikTok上，也在现实生活中，他们只是说：我想与上帝建立关系，但我不知道该如何找到它。

I hear from people all day long, yes, on TikTok, but also in real life where they're just like, I want a relationship with God and I'm just not sure how to find that.

我的意思是，也许是因为疫情，但外面确实在酝酿着某种东西，人们渴望更宏大、更深刻的东西。

I mean, I think that's, maybe it was the pandemic, but there is something brewing out there where people, they're hungry for something bigger and deeper.

所以，这又是我在充满希望的日子里的想法。

So, again, that's me on my hopeful days.

当然，我也曾有过更加愤世嫉俗的日子。

I've also had my days where I'm more cynical.

但在你悲观的日子里会发生什么？

But What happens on your cynical days?

实际上，我现在正在担任德克萨斯州众议院的第四届任期。

So I actually so I'm in my fourth term in the Texas House.

他们的任期是两年，所以我已经干了八年。

I'm in their two year term, so that's eight years.

在我的第二个任期内，我经历了一次信心危机，我想是这样的。

In my second term, I kinda had a crisis of confidence, I guess.

那届会期非常艰难。

It was a brutal session.

众议院里发生了许多激烈的争斗，通过了许多极其糟糕的法案。

It was a lot of really vicious fights on the House floor, a lot of really terrible bills.

我们刚才提到的堕胎禁令，就是在我的第二届任期内通过的。

The abortion ban, which we just talked about was passed in my second term.

我当时真的失去了对自己所产生影响的信心，甚至对整个民主制度也产生了怀疑——我们是否真能通过政治程序非暴力、和平地解决所有分歧？

And I just kind of, I honestly lost faith the impact I was making, and maybe even in democracy as a whole, whether this thing was even gonna work, this idea that we were all gonna try to solve our conflicts nonviolently and peacefully through a political process.

我不知道，所有这些让我开始以一种深刻的方式质疑我所从事的工作。

I don't know, all of that kind of, I started to doubt, in a profound way the work I was doing.

在我一生中，每当我感到这种怀疑时，我总是回归信仰。

And throughout my life, whenever I felt that doubt, I've always fallen back on faith.

信仰对我来说是一种根本性的支撑。

Faith is the thing that is kind of the foundation for me.

所以在我的第二个任期内，我曾考虑过彻底辞职。

And so in that second term, I had thought about quitting altogether.

我想过辞去职务，去从事其他可能更有成效的事情。

I thought about resigning my seed and just going off to do other things that maybe would be more fruitful.

但经过大量的祈祷、深入的自我反省和冥想，我做出了一个稍有不同的选择：去神学院，重返校园，完成成为牧师的全过程。

But through a lot of praying and a lot of soul searching and a lot of meditation, I made a slightly different choice, which was to go to seminary and go back to school and go through the process of becoming a minister.

我祖父是南德克萨斯州的一名浸信会牧师，因此这构成了我成长的一部分。

My granddad was a Baptist minister in South Texas, and so it was a part of my upbringing.

我其实从未想过自己会走上这条路，但我想，爱邻如己有时真的很难。

And I had really not thought about doing it myself, but I think I had just loving thy neighbor is really hard sometimes.

我在立法机构所做的工作，就是通过我推动的法案、在处方药、托儿服务、公立学校和司法改革方面的努力，来实践爱邻如己。

And the work I do in the legislature is my attempt to love my neighbor through the bills I pass, through the work that I do on prescription drugs, on childcare, on public schools, on justice reform.

但我开始怀疑，自己是否真的在做当初来到这里想做的事。

But I was losing faith on whether I was actually doing what I came here to do.

于是我决定去神学院，追随耶稣的第一个诫命：爱上帝。

And so I made that decision to go to seminary to follow Jesus' first commandment, which is to love God.

祂赐予我们的就是这两条诫命：爱上帝和爱邻如己。

Those are the two commandments he gave us, love God and love neighbor.

作为一名神学院学生和议员，我正逐渐明白这两条诫命是如何相互关联、相互支撑的。

And as a seminarian and a lawmaker, I'm kind of, I'm starting to figure out how these two commands, how they relate to each other, how they sustain each other.

你需要内在的生命，而我觉得我正在神学院中培养这种内在生命。

You need that inner life, which I feel like I'm cultivating at seminary.

同时，你也需要外在的生活，即这种内在信仰如何影响你的人际关系和你在世上的工作。

And then you also need this outer life of how does that impact your relationships and the work you do out in the world.

这两者缺一不可，因为如果你只做外在的工作，很容易就会耗尽自己——我想，我当时在第二个任期就快要崩溃了。

And you really can't have one without the other, because if you do the second one, the workout in the world, you can burn out so easily, which I think I was about to burn out in that second term.

如果没有对上帝的爱作为支撑，你很容易就会耗尽自己。

You can burn out if it's not sustained by that love of God.

而且，我说的上帝并不是这个词对很多人来说所承载的含义。

And again, I don't mean God as that word is charged for a lot of people.

我不是指某种教派性的宗教正统定义。

I don't mean like a sectarian religious orthodoxy definition.

我只是指你存在的根基，无论那是什么。

I just mean that ground of your being, whatever that is.

是的。

Mhmm.

不管怎样，我不知道这是否回答了你最初的问题，但是

Anyway, I don't know if that answers your original question, but

主要的挣扎是什么？

What was the the main struggle?

比如，你在家里面临什么问题，导致你陷入这场危机？

Like, what what were you facing in the house that was causing you to have this crisis?

嗯，当时有好几项法案。

Well, so there were several bills.

我提到了堕胎禁令。

I mentioned the abortion ban.

但你是在处理具体的人吗？

Was dealing with the human beings, though?

是那些实际的……

Was it the the actual

所以，这项法案成了压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草。

So so the bill this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

在那届立法会议快结束时，我的共和党同事又提出了一项——用我自己的话来说，这是一项压制选民的法案，让德克萨斯州的投票变得更加困难。

Toward the end of that legislative session, my Republican colleagues brought a again, this is the most this is the way I would describe it, a voter suppression bill, making it more difficult to vote in the state of Texas.

再说一遍，德克萨斯州可能是全国投票最困难的地方，光是表格、要求和必须跨越的繁琐程序就让人头疼。

Again, Texas is is probably the hardest place to vote in the country just in terms of the paperwork, the requirements, the the the hoops you gotta jump through.

但具体是怎么个困难法？

How so, though?

还有很多其他问题。

There's a whole host of things.

你知道，我们州没有在线选民登记，而很多其他州都有。

You know, the fact that we don't have online voter registration in the state when a lot of other states do.

想想你平时在线上做的所有事情。

I mean, think of all the things you do online.

但选民登记却不在其中。

Voter registration is not one of them.

现在被认可用于选民登记或投票的身份证件非常有限。

The IDs that now count for registering to vote or voting are very selective.

例如，隐蔽持枪许可证可以作为身份证明，这一点我同意，它确实应该被接受。

So for instance, you've got a concealed carry license, that license counts as ID, which I agree that it should.

但大学或学院的学生证却不被认可为有效身份证件。

But a student ID from a college or university doesn't count as an ID.

你必须去办理驾照。

You have to get a driver's license.

是的。

Yeah.

你必须去申请驾照。

You gotta go get a driver's license.

还有，护照对某些人来说是可行的，但我一生中大部分时间都没有护照。

And again, Passport for someone like passport was that But again, I didn't have a passport for most of my life.

对吧？

Right?

我直到三十多岁才第一次出国旅行。

I didn't I didn't travel outside the country till I was, you know, I was in my thirties.

所以我没有护照。

And so I didn't have a passport.

很多人没有驾照，尤其是老年人。

A lot of people don't have a driver's license, especially older folks.

所以问题是，这些规定层层叠加，使得情况变得更加困难。

So the point is that these rules get added on top of each other and make it even more difficult.

其中一个

One of the

主要的。这些规则是什么？制定这些规则的目的是什么？

main What are these rules what what's the reason for these rules?

这些规则是为了防止非公民投票。

Is the rules they're trying to keep people that are noncitizens from being able to vote.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，也不完全是。

Well, not exactly.

我的意思是，确实有这方面的担忧。

I mean, there is that concern.

但问题就出在这里，情况开始变得复杂了。

There's all but and here's where it kinda breaks down.

主要的担忧是冒名投票。嗯。

Main concern is voter voter impersonation Uh-huh.

也就是说，我会假装自己是别人去投票。

Which is the idea that I would show up to vote as if I was someone else.

比如，我会去冒充乔·罗根，然后替他投票。

Like, I was gonna go and impersonate Joe Rogan and vote for Joe Rogan.

不过，这种事情确实发生过。

That does happen, though.

对吧？

Right?

这种事件发生的次数极少。

Vanishingly few incidences of this happening.

对。

Right.

难道不应该为零吗？

Because Shouldn't there be zero?

难道不应该为零吗？

Shouldn't there be zero?

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Of course.

而且，你知道的，肯·帕克顿，我们德克萨斯州的总检察长，竟然花数百万美元去寻找选民欺诈行为，试图证明这是一个普遍存在的问题，对吧？

And and Ken Paxton, you know, decides to he's our attorney general here in Texas, decides to spend millions of dollars trying to find voter fraud, right, to try to prove that this is a widespread problem.

而你知道，如果他真找到了什么，通常也不过是一两起母亲填表出错的案例。

And, you know, if he comes up with anything, it's usually like one or two cases of some mom who made a mistake on her form.

我的意思是，我们德克萨斯州的州务卿，一位共和党人，曾表示我们的选举是安全且可靠的。

I mean, the secretary of state here in Texas, a republican, said that our elections are safe and secure.

所以我完全支持确保我们的选举具有公信力。

So I'm all for making sure that our elections have integrity.

我认为在民主制度中，这一点是必须的。

I think you have to have that in democracy.

但我担心的是，一些法案在此基础上增加了不必要的规定，只是为了让某些人更难投票，而不是确保每个人都有平等的投票机会。

My concern though is when some of these bills are adding unnecessary regulations on top of that, just to make it harder for some folks to be able to vote rather than make everyone, you have the same opportunity to vote.

谁

Who do

你觉得他们想让谁更难投票？

you think they're trying to make it harder for?

我觉得是年轻人。

I think young people.

你知道，我提到过大学和学生证不能作为有效身份证明的问题。

You know, I mentioned this issue of of colleges, universities and those student IDs not being eligible.

第二，在德克萨斯州，每当你换县，就必须重新登记投票。

Two, in Texas, you've gotta change your registration every time you move counties.

如果你只是在同一个县内搬家，不一定需要，但每换一个县就必须重新登记。

Not necessarily if you move within a county, but every time you move counties.

我们根本不需要这样做。

This is something we don't have to do.

实际上，我们已经有了一些后勤系统，可以跨县追踪选民登记信息。

Like we have, there are logistical systems in place where we could track voter registration across counties.

但想想那些被剥夺投票权的人，那些经常搬家的人。

But think about the people that disenfranchises, the people who move a lot.

是的。

Mhmm.

经常搬家的人。

Who moves a lot.

年轻人经常搬家。

Young people move a lot.

对。

Yeah.

每次你换工作、搬新公寓，或者去上大学，你都在搬家，而你的选民登记实际上就被取消了，直到你重新登记。

Every time you get a new job, get a new apartment, if you go to a college or university, then you are moving, and your voter registration has essentially been erased until you redo it.

而且年轻人更有可能投票给进步派和自由派。

And young people are more likely to vote progressive and liberal.

我的意思是，我不确定现在是不是还这样，因为很多年轻人在上一次选举中投票给了特朗普总统。

I mean, I don't even know if that's true anymore because, you know, a lot of young people voted for president Trump in the last election.

我认为这是因为许多年轻人对前政府通过的一些法律以及他们为压制言论自由所采取的行动感到被剥夺了权利。

I think that's because a lot of young people felt very disenfranchised by some of the laws that were being passed by the previous administration and some of the actions they were taking to suppress freedom of speech.

我觉得这很公平。

I think it's fair.

我的观点是，当共和党人在我的工作场所试图剥夺某些群体的权利时，他们应该更自信一些，相信自己真正有能力赢得这些群体的支持。

My point is when Republicans in in in my in my workplace try to disenfranchise certain groups, I I think it's almost they should give themselves more credit and and believe in their ability to actually win over those groups.

对吧？

Right?

与其让年轻人

Instead of trying to make it harder for young

却对他们这样做。

to them, though.

你知道吗？

You know?

但我的意思是，与其让年轻人投票更困难，为什么不直接去争取他们的选票呢？

Well, but but my point is, instead of making it harder for young people to vote, why don't you just go out and try to win their votes?

显然，唐纳德·特朗普做到了。

Clearly, Donald Trump was able to do it.

如果唐纳德·特朗普能做到，我认为更多共和党人应该相信自己也能赢得这些选票。

And if Donald Trump was able to do it, I think more Republicans should feel they they can compete for those votes.

是的。

Yeah.

竞争是好事。

Competition is a good thing.

很多人投票给特朗普的原因，很大程度上是对前一届政府的不满，以及认为这是一场延续——卡玛拉·哈里斯的政府将是前一届政府的延续。

And A lot of the reason why people were voting for Trump was a rejection of the previous administration and the idea that this is a continuance, that the Kamala Harris administration would be a continuance of the previous administration.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's true.

但我再次为我的共和党同事们发声。

But, again, I'm arguing for my Republican colleagues here.

我认为唐纳德·特朗普触及了一些其他共和党人也可以利用的东西。

I do think there is something that Donald Trump tapped into, I think, that other Republicans could tap into.

而且，再次说明，这有点奇怪，因为我是个民主党人，却在为共和党人辩护。

And, again, this is weird because I'm a Democrat making an argument for Republicans.

我这么做的原因是，我认为当政治家们觉得他们能够赢得选民时，我们都会竞争去争取这些选民，而这会带来更好的公共政策。

The reason I'm doing this is I think when politicians feel that they can win over voters, we all compete to win over those voters, and that leads to better public policy.

对吧？

Right?

如果你直接放弃某些选民，当然。

If you write off voters Sure.

那就会导致政策制定走向极端，因为你只关注取悦自己的群体。

Then that leads to extremism in your policy making because you're only focused on pleasing your people.

嗯，这正是年轻男性群体面临的问题。

Well, that was a that was an issue with young men.

是的。

Yes.

是的

Yep.

所以我认为共和党能够回应这种渴望成为企业家的愿望。

And and so the fact that I do think the Republican Party can speak to this this desire to be an entrepreneur.

民主党人，也就是我的政党，往往认为人们会满足于施舍。

Democrats too often, my party, we think that people are gonna be happy with a handout.

我从未遇到过想要施舍的人。

No one I've never met someone who wants a handout.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，人们想要的——我从未遇到过。

I mean, people want Never met.

去工作。

To work.

你从未遇到过只想白拿钱的人吗？

You've never met someone who just wants free money?

我实际上没见过。

I actually haven't.

没有。

No.

见过。

Have.

你见过吗？

Have you?

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

我应该多和不同的人交往。

I should hang out with different people.

嗯，确实有很多人只想让政府来照顾他们。

Well, there's a lot of people that just want the government to take care of them.

问题是这样。

Here's the thing.

我认为有些人可能以为他们想要那样。

I think some people may think they want that.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

让我们把政府排除在外。

And let's take the government out of it.

有些人觉得他们只想窝在沙发上。

Some people think they just wanna sit on their couch.

对吧？

Right?

我也是。

And I do too.

对吧？

Right?

当我精疲力尽的时候，最不想做的就是那件事。

When I'm, like, exhausted, don't want the last thing.

我只想躺平发烂。

I just wanna I just wanna rot.

我的意思是，过一段时间后，这样并不会让你感觉好受。

My point is after a while, that doesn't make you feel good.

没错。

No.

对吧？

Right?

每个普通人，

Every human being,

你需要有工作的愿望、创造的欲望和贡献的意愿。

you need the desire to work, to produce, to contribute.

我认为这是一种与生俱来的人类本能。

I think that is a natural human urge that's, like, built into us.

这没错，但我认为也有很多人感到彻底被边缘化，工作对他们来说是令人厌恶的。

That is true, but I also think there's a lot of people out there that feel completely disenfranchised, and the idea of working sounds abhorrent to them.

每天把生命奉献给一件你憎恨的事情。

The idea of giving your life every day to something that you hate to do.

如果有足够的钱让你不必这么做，他们宁愿不工作。

And if there's enough money out there where that's not necessary, they would rather do that.

我认为这完全正确。

I think that's absolutely true.

对。

Yeah.

我认为这意味着我们没有创造出足够多能让人们找到意义的工作。

And I think that one should be that means that we aren't creating enough jobs where people can find meaning.

我们该如何创造这样的工作呢？

How can we create jobs

让人们找到意义的工作？

where people find meaning?

我不认为你和我，至少我不认为我所扮演的这个角色是工作。

I don't think you and I you and I have, and I don't wanna speak for you, but I don't think of this role that I have as work.

对吧？

Right?

这每天都能激励我起床，去处理这些问题。

This is something that moves me every day to get out of bed and work on these issues.

现在我做这件事并没有报酬，所以我还得另找一份全职工作，但那是另一个问题了。

Now I don't get paid to do this, so I have to actually have a whole another job, but it's a whole different issue.

但职业和工作是有区别的。

But there's a difference between a career and a job.

是的。

Yes.

我认为我认识的每个人，我从小一起长大的朋友们，都想要一份职业。

I think everyone that I've met, everyone I grew up with wants a career.

是的。

Yes.

而且这样的事业可以呈现出非常不同的形态。

And that career can look very differently.

这份事业不一定非得在办公室里，对吧？

That career does not have to be in a office, right?

我的意思是，这份事业可以是在户外，可以是动手操作的，也可以是在家里，对吧？

I mean, that career can one can be outside, can be with your hands, or that career can be at the home, right?

我小妹两年前生了第一个孩子，我的小侄女简，她现在全职在家照顾孩子，玛德琳，她花了很多时间陪伴简。

My little sister just had her first child two years ago, my baby niece, Jane, and she stay at home, Madeline is, and she's spending so much time with Jane.

我从未见过我妹妹比现在做这份工作时更有活力。

And I've never seen my sister more alive than the work that she's doing.

对吧？

Right?

她以前是一名成功的会计师。

And she made my sister was a successful accountant.

她在Alamo Drafthouse工作过。

She worked at Alamo Drafthouse.

她之前做过一些很酷的工作。

She had she had cool jobs.

但我认为这才是她真正想要的职业。

But I think this is the career that she wants.

她知道如果她想，她也可以做其他事情，但这份工作给了她生命的意义。

She knows that she could do other things if she wants to, but this is what's giving her meaning in her life.

我也希望有一天能有孩子，所以我完全能理解这一点。

And I wanna have kids one day, so I definitely see that.

我有一些想做的工作。

There's work that I wanna do.

我上神学院的部分原因，是因为我觉得这是上天赋予我的使命。

Part of why I'm going to seminary is that this is something I feel called to do.

这给了我生命中的目标和意义。

It's something that's giving me purpose and meaning in my life.

我只是觉得，每个人都值得拥有这样的东西。

I just think every single person deserves that.

我不知道最好的方法是什么，但我们该如何让每个人都有机会去送出他们本该送出的礼物呢？

And I don't know the best way to do it, but how do we give everyone that opportunity to give the gift that they're meant to give?

我的意思是，我们每个人在这里的时间都如此短暂。

I mean, we're all here for just a short amount of time.

我们每个人都是如此不同。

We are all so different.

在宇宙的历史上，绝对没有第二个人和你一模一样，对吧？

There's literally no one in the history of the universe that is you, right?

乔·罗根，你这个由原子和元素组成的个体，只会存在这一次。

Joe Rogan, this collection of atoms and elements is only gonna exist once.

感谢上帝，你找到了发光的方式。

And thank God you found a way of how do you shine that light?

你该如何送出这份礼物？

How do you give that gift?

想想看，这个国家各地有多少人，根本找不到送出这份礼物的方式。

To think of all the people across the state in this country who don't have a way to give that.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我们错过了什么？

What are we missing out on?

你有

Do you have

治愈癌症的方法可能被困在一个低收入学校孩子的脑海中。

a way to say cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of of a kid in a low income school.

对。

Right.

但这都只是美好的情感，究竟可以采取哪些实际行动，来给人一条通往职业而非仅仅一份工作的道路？

The but this is all great sentiment, but what are the actions that could be taken in order to give people a path to a career rather than a job?

让我们谈谈吧，我认为我们所有人都对这个人工智能的未来既兴奋又恐惧。

So let's talk about I think we're we're all either thrilled or terrified of this AI future.

谁知道它会是什么样子？

And who knows what it's gonna look like?

这可能不会是末日，也不会是乌托邦。

It's probably not gonna be apocalypse and probably not gonna be utopia.

它可能会介于两者之间。

It'll probably be something in the middle.

但它将改变我们对工作的理解。

But it is going to change how we understand work.

它将改变我们对工作和职业的理解。

It's gonna change how we understand our jobs and our careers.

我想象它会消除很多工作。

It's gonna eliminate a lot of jobs, I would imagine.

因此，这现在成为一个关于“成为人意味着什么”的精神问题。

And so this is now gonna be a spiritual question about what does it mean to be a human being?

我们目前并没有准备好回答这个问题，因为在很多方面，我们因之前谈到的有组织宗教的问题，而把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉了。

It's one that we are not equipped to answer right now, because in a lot of ways we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and because of the problems with organized religion that we talked about earlier, we've just jettisoned the whole thing.

因此，我们不再讨论成为人意味着什么。

So we're no longer having conversations about what it means to be a human being.

但要回答你关于这具体可能是什么样子的问题，我对一些全民基本收入的试点项目以及它们所提供的内容很感兴趣。

But to get to your question about what specifically this could look like, you know, I'm intrigued by some of the pilot programs on universal basic income and what provided.

但我认为这个想法中缺失的是：如何为人们提供支持，让他们去实现那些在脑海中潜藏已久的梦想？

But I think what's missing in this idea is how do you provide people the support to go off and realize whatever dream has been festering in their brain for a long time?

就像是创业资助，对吧？

Almost like entrepreneurial grants, right?

即我们投资于某人下一个关于产业、艺术、社区工作、非营利工作或解决社区问题的重大创意。

Of where we invest in someone's next big idea for an industry, for art, whether it is community work or nonprofit work or solving a community problem.

我的观点是，我的人生告诉我，人们确实拥有这种创造力和想象力，而我们却未能加以利用。

My point is my life shows me that people are just, they have this creativity and this imagination that we are not tapping into.

而这些潜力大多被禁锢在那些从事毫无意义工作的人身上，或者因为上过质量低劣的学校，根本无法进入一个能让他们表达自我、奉献天赋的工作。

And so much of that is trapped in people who are either in these meaningless jobs or are either gone to inadequate schools and therefore don't even get into a job where they could express themselves and give this gift.

但我确信这种潜力是存在的，如果我们能发掘它，就可能带来颠覆性的改变。

But I do know that it's out there, and then if we tap into it, it could be a game changer.

所以我不知道这具体会是什么样子，但似乎即将到来的变革正是一次机遇。

So I I don't know what this looks like, but it does seem like the disruption that's coming could be an opportunity.

再次回到受难之后必有复活的主题。

Again, back to out of crucifixion comes resurrection.

颠覆是一种机遇。

Disruption is an opportunity

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I would agree.

行动起来。

Do something.

我认为这也非常依赖于个人。

I think it's also very dependent upon the individual.

我认为我们能给予他们最好的就是激励。

And I think the best thing we can give them is inspiration.

而通常，最好的方式就是给他们一个也做到过的人的榜样。

And oftentimes, the best thing you can give them is an example of someone who also did it.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，有很多人感到当前的制度完全剥夺了他们的权利，而我认为这种制度将被人工智能颠覆。

And so there's a lot of people that feel completely disenfranchised by the system that's currently in place now that I think is going to be upended by AI.

因此，他们有机会去做一些完全不同的事情。

So there is an opportunity for them to do something completely different.

而全民基本收入的积极之处在于，首先，我认为我们都同意，如果大量工作突然消失，这可能是维持社会运转的唯一方式。

And the positive aspect of universal basic income is that first of all, I think we could both agree that if an enormous amount of jobs just go away, that probably is the only way to sustain society.

当这些系统正在创造难以想象的财富时，我们不能任由人们陷入贫困和饥饿。

You can't just have people go poor and go hungry when we we have unfathomable wealth that's being created by these same systems.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

所以，全民基本收入在一方面充满希望，因为它带来了这种可能性：你不再被锁定在这种必须工作才能维持温饱和住所的处境中。

So universal basic income, on one hand, has a lot of hope because there there is this potential that you now no longer so we're locked into this situation where you think that you're working and you have to work because you have to take care of food and you have to take care of shelter.

现在这个国家的大多数人都是这样，靠工资过日子，挣多少花多少。

And that this is what most people are doing with most people in this country right now are working check to check.

他们过着朝不保夕的生活，勉强维持生计。

They're they're living paycheck to paycheck, and they're essentially getting by.

任何一场灾难——无论是医疗还是其他原因——都会瞬间耗尽他们所有的积蓄，让他们陷入绝境。

And any catastrophe, medical or otherwise, will eliminate all savings instantaneously, and they're doomed.

因此，他们只是不停地工作，把大半生都耗费在维持当前这种状态上。

And so what they're doing is just working, giving most of their life just to sustain whatever state they're in currently.

这对人们来说非常沮丧，因为他们觉得自己永远无法翻身，也看不到任何出头的希望。

And that's very frustrating for people because they don't think they ever get ahead, and they don't think they're they have any potential to get ahead.

所以，如果有什么办法能解决生活中的这一基本需求——比如全民基本收入能为你提供食物和住所，你就不再需要为吃饭发愁了。

So if something comes along that takes care of that aspect of life so if universal basic income can provide you with food and shelter, now you no longer have to think about food.

你也不再需要为住房操心。

You no longer have to think about shelter.

现在，你必须去寻找人生的意义。

Now you have to find meaning.

问题是，对很多人来说，有太多无益的干扰，比如社交媒体、电子游戏，以及人们整天参与的许多其他事情，再加上药物成瘾、派对和其他许多毫无意义的活动。

The problem is for a lot of people, there are so many distractions that are unproductive, like social media, like video games, like many things that people participate in all day long, and then you add in a factor of drug addiction and partying and a lot of other fruitless lit things that people participate in.

如果你前35年的人生只是为了应付食物和住所，而现在食物和住所已经得到了保障。

If you only were living for the for first thirty five years of your life just to deal with food and shelter, and now food and shelter is provided for you.

那么在35岁时，你就需要重新调整对世界的看法，找到意义，是的。

Now at 35, you have to sort of reformulate your view of the world and find meaning Yeah.

找到一些东西。

And find something.

也许你是无神论者，所以你不会从宗教中寻找意义，也不希望从宗教中找到意义。

And maybe you're an atheist, so you don't you don't find meaning in religion, and you don't have any desire to find meaning in religion.

明白了。

Okay.

那你该怎么办呢？

Well, you what do you do?

你该如何教育这些人？

And how do you educate these people?

而且你打算怎么做？我认为将会发生一场前所未有的巨大动荡。

And how do you I I think there's gonna be an upheaval, the likes of which we have never seen before.

将会出现大量混乱，对很多人来说这将非常不适。

And there's gonna be a lot of chaos, and it's gonna uncomfortable for a lot of people.

我认为我们将面临前所未有的成瘾水平，无论是药物还是其他任何东西。

I think we're gonna deal with unprecedented levels of addiction, whether it is with drugs or with fill in the blank.

无论是赌博，还是人们会上瘾的任何事物，因为我认为人们会去寻找刺激。

Whatever whether it's gambling, whatever things that people get addicted to because I think people are gonna look for thrills.

他们会寻找一些能吸引他们、带来兴奋感的东西，因为他们每个月只是领一笔钱。

They're gonna look for something that entices them, that gives them some excitement because they're they're just getting a check every month.

是的。

Yeah.

不幸的是，人类的天性就是这样，这对我们并不好。

Unfortunately, just the way humans are wired, that's not good for us.

我们从彩票中奖者身上已经知道了这一点。

We know that from we know that from lottery winners.