#2360 - 卡罗琳·弗雷泽

乔·罗根播客。快来看看。

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

《乔·罗根体验》节目。

The Joe Rogan experience.

展示我的一天。白天黑夜都在听乔·罗根播客，全天候。

Showing my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

感谢你参与

Thanks for doing

这个。谢谢你的邀请。

this. Thank you for having me.

我在网上读到你这本书的主题后，立刻就觉得必须和这位女士聊聊。这听起来太疯狂了。请先向大家介绍一下主题，这样我们就可以开始了。

So I read about the premise of your book online, and immediately, I'm like, I gotta talk to this lady. That sounds crazy. Please tell people what the premise is just so we can get started with this.

好的。其实我很久以前就开始思考这个问题了。

Yeah. Well, I started thinking about this a long time ago.

这本书叫《谋杀之地》。

The book's called murderland.

是的。书名叫《谋杀之地》，我成长于1970年代的太平洋西北地区，那时正是连环杀手开始频繁出现的时期。人们总在问：为什么太平洋西北地区有这么多连环杀手？这正是我深入思考的问题。根据我的研究和发现的某些事实——关于西北地区在1970年代前发生的事——逐渐浮现的主题是：该地区普遍存在的铅污染（来自冶炼厂和含铅汽油）可能与连环杀手存在关联。因为正如我们现在多数人所知，铅暴露会增强人的攻击性和暴力倾向。

Yeah. The the book is murderland, and I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the nineteen seventies around the time when there were a lot of, you know, serial killers beginning to pop up. And there always had been this question, why are there so many serial killers in the Pacific Northwest? And so that was the question I was really thinking about. And the the premise as it emerged from the research that I did and from some of the facts that I learned about what was happening in the Northwest in this run up to the nineteen seventies is that there may be a connection between the lead pollution that was prevalent in the area because of smelters and leaded gas and serial killers because lead, of course, as we I think most people now know, has a connection to heightened aggression and violence in the people who've been exposed to it.

这就是多年来我逐渐发现的。起初我对此了解不多，只知道连环杀手的事，完全不了解铅污染的整个背景。后来部分是通过几起谋杀案才知晓——我现在住在新墨西哥州的圣达菲，那是个美丽的地方。

So that was, you know, what emerged to me gradually over the years. I mean, I didn't know a lot about this when I started. I knew about the serial killers, but I didn't really know about the whole lead story. And that came about you know, I learned about it in part because of some murders. I mean, I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, which is a lovely place.

不幸的是，新墨西哥州的凶杀率很高。部分原因是这里是个贫困州，税收基础薄弱，还存在毒品和酒精成瘾问题。大约几年前，可能是2008年左右，我住的街道附近就有几起谋杀案发生。而我所在的社区本是非常安宁的，你知道吗？

Unfortunately, New Mexico has a high rate of homicides. In part, it's because it's a poor state and doesn't have a big tax base and has some issues with drug and alcohol addiction. And few years ago, maybe 2,008 or something like that, some people couple people were murdered down the street from me. And I live in a very peaceful neighborhood. You know?

对吧？这件事真的让我开始思考，或许该考虑搬回太平洋西北地区了——反正我也有这个打算，因为我的家人都在那边。几年后，受此影响，我去了西北地区看房产广告。那时我还完全不了解冶炼厂或铅污染的问题。当时我在看瓦雄岛上的房产，如果你熟悉太平洋西北地区，就知道它位于普吉特海湾。

Right? And that was something that really made me start thinking about the issue of maybe, you know, it might be a good idea to think of moving back to the Pacific Northwest, which I wanted to do anyway because I have family up there. And and a few years later, because of that, I was up in the Northwest and looking at real estate ads. And at this point, I didn't really know anything about the smelter or the the lead issues. But I was looking at property on Vashon Island, which if you know anything about the Pacific Northwest, is in Puget Sound.

它正对着西雅图西区。那是个美丽的小岛——我小时候那里还很乡村化。我在一则未开发土地的广告上看到'可能需要进行砷污染治理'，当时就想：哇。

It's right across from West Seattle. Beautiful little it was quite rural when I was growing up there. Beautiful place. And I came across a real estate ad that said, and this is just for undeveloped property, and it said arsenic remediation may be necessary. And I thought, wow.

到底是什么导致瓦雄岛的砷污染严重到需要治理？这对我来说简直难以置信。出于好奇，我上网查了资料，几分钟内就发现塔科马市曾有个恶名昭彰的铅铜冶炼厂——瓦雄岛正位于该市南面，因此承受了大量污染。

What could possibly have caused so much arsenic pollution on Vashon Island that you would have to get it remediated? I mean, that just seemed crazy to me. And I was so curious about that. And I looked it up online and, you know, within minutes discovered that there had been an infamous lead and copper smelter in the city of Tacoma, which is just South of Vashon Island. And so Vashon received a lot of the pollution from that smelter.

这开启了我探究当地历史的旅程。由于长期对连环杀手感兴趣，我读过泰德·邦迪和绿河杀手加里·里奇韦的资料。他们都在塔科马长大，而那座从1880-90年代运营至今的冶炼厂就在那里。媒体曾用GIS地理信息系统绘制过污染地图，能查到塔科马每户住宅庭院里的砷铅含量。

And so that began a whole process of of kind of learning about what happened here, you know, what happened in this region. And I also knew because I'm sort of really interested in serial killers as I mentioned and had been for for a long time, reading about them and reading about Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway. And I knew that both Bundy and Gary Richway, who was the Green River Killer, had grown up in Tacoma at the same time that the smelter is you know, the smelter had been operating there since the eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, so for a very long time. And I could see that a lot of news media had been devoted to looking at what had happened in this in this region. You know, there was a whole map, a GIS map, geographic, you know, information systems that allowed you to look up individual houses, you know, residential homes in Tacoma and see how much arsenic and lead pollution was in the yards.

我发现甚至能查到邦迪童年住宅前后院的铅含量。随着深入了解铅污染与攻击性、暴力行为的关联...

So I discovered that you could actually look up the house where Ted Bundy grew up and see how much lead was in his front yard and his backyard. And the more I read about lead pollution and lead, the association with aggression and violence, the more

我不禁思考：这个议题是否值得深挖？铅污染仅仅关联连环杀手，还是整体暴力犯罪率都会升高？

I wondered, is there a story to be told here about this issue? So this this issue of lead pollution, is it just serial killers or is there an elevated amount of violent crime that goes along with it?

是的。提到连环杀手只是作为最极端的案例。

Yeah. The the issue of serial killers is one that I kind of introduced as a, you know, the most extreme example.

明白。

Right.

但多数研究聚焦于攻击性和青少年犯罪。长期追踪显示，即便是低剂量铅暴露的儿童，到青少年时期就会出现学习障碍、多动症，以及如前所述的犯罪倾向。

But most most of the research that's been done has focused on aggression, juvenile delinquency, for example. There are long term studies that look at kids who were exposed to lead, including in relatively small amounts, and then what happens to them later by the time they're teenagers or young adults. And they have shown a very strong association with you know, problems with learning, ADHD, and and as I said, delinquency and and crime.

他们甚至证明，在没有冶炼厂的地方，人们仅仅接触九十年代前使用的含铅汽油——对吧？

And what they've even shown that in places that don't have smelters where people are just dealing with leaded gasoline that was used up until the nineteen nineties. Right?

没错，是的。

That's right. Yeah.

是的。智商下降等许多因素可直接归因于汽油中的铅，这远比大型冶炼作业造成的污染要轻得多。本期节目由The Farmer's Dog赞助。我们都认同每餐吃高度加工食品并不理想，但为何加工食品却成了狗粮的常态？

Yeah. Decrease in IQ, a lot of factors that they can directly tie into just the lead from gasoline, which is significantly less than I would assume you'd get from a large scale smelting operation. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. I think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal. So why is processed food the status quo for dog food?

因为干狗粮就是超加工食品。但健康选择是存在的——The Farmer's Dog。他们为狗狗制作新鲜食物。长什么样？真正的肉和蔬菜经温和烹煮保留关键营养，避免超加工带来的有害物质。

Because that's what kibble is, an ultra processed food. But a healthy alternative exists, the farmer's dog. They make fresh food for dogs. And what does it look like? Real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra processing.

这可不是随意混搭的原料。他们的配方由在职的兽医营养学专家制定，这些狗狗营养专家全力推崇新鲜食物。The Farmer's Dog还有独特服务：根据狗狗营养需求精准分装食物。

And it's not just random ingredients thrown together. Their food is formulated by on staff board certified vet nutritionists. These people are experts on dog nutrition, and they're all in on fresh food. The farmer's dog also does something unique. They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs.

确保不会过量喂食，轻松管理体重。研究表明保持健康体重的狗狗可多活两年半。访问farmersdog.com/rogan首单享5折加免运费（限新客户）。本期节目由Visible赞助。

This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy. Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer. Head to the farmersdog.com/rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Visible.

告诉你个秘密：现有运营商最怕你知道Visible，因为这是终极通讯解决方案。没有隐藏费用的复杂套餐，只有高速网络和优质覆盖，且无需高昂成本。

I wanna let you in on something. Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees. No nonsense. Just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.

Visible提供Verizon网络支持的无限流量套餐，月费25美元含税。千真万确——25美元全包价，绝无额外费用。想见识下吗？

With Visible, you get one line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Seriously, $25 a month flat. What you see is what you pay. No hidden fees on top of that. Ready to see?

立即加入Visible计划，每月25美元享无限流量。觉得通讯服务不可能如此透明？现在你知道了。马上登录visible.com/rogan办理（条款适用）。

Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan. Don't think wireless can be so transparent, so Visible? Well, now you know. Switch today at visible.com/rogan. Terms apply.

详情可见visible.com查看套餐内容及网络管理细则。

See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

是的。含铅汽油尤其可悲，因为这本质上是对这个国家几代儿童进行的一种可怕实验。

Yeah. And the the leaded gas is particularly tragic because that was essentially a kind of horrific experiment that was conducted on generations of kids in this country

是啊。

Yeah.

成年人也未能幸免，因为每个人都暴露其中。嗯。显然有些人受影响更大，比如住在高速公路附近的人，他们接触到的铅量会比其他人更多。

And adults because everybody was exposed to that. Mhmm. Obviously, some people more than others, if you lived next to a major highway or something like that, you were getting more of it than

没错。

Yeah.

比住在其他地方的人更严重。不过我认为农村居民也未能幸免，因为农场使用的各类机械等设备同样会造成暴露。这是个糟糕透顶的主意，而当时他们心知肚明。那些公司、企业、推行者——标准石油、杜邦等等——他们清楚这其中的危险。医生们警告过他们，说这会让所有人接触到的铅量远超人类历史上任何时期。

Than if you maybe lived somewhere else. Although, I think rural people were also exposed because of the kinds of machinery and stuff that's used on farms and and so forth. So it was a terrible idea and they knew that at the time. The companies, the corporations, the people who introduced it, Standard Oil, DuPont, etcetera, They knew the dangers of this. They were told by medical doctors who said, yeah, who said this will expose everybody to, you know, more lead than than human beings have ever had to deal with before.

天啊。

Wow.

而他们这么做仅仅是为了防止发动机爆震。

And And they just did it to stop the engines from knocking.

确实如此。而且显然存在替代方案。但像乙醇这样的替代品无法申请专利，也不能从中牟利。所以这些企业全都选择了含铅汽油。唉。

They did. And, apparently, there were alternatives. But the alternatives, which were like ethanol, were not something that could be patented and were not products that you could make money off of. And so all these corporations chose to do this. Oh god.

是啊。这种道德沦丧简直令人难以置信——甚至觉得'沦丧'这个词都不够强烈。

Yeah. I mean, it's it's really almost unreal to think about the the moral failure that this I mean, failure doesn't even seem strong enough.

确实不够。太邪恶了。人类历史上——甚至就在近代——这种事件屡屡发生：企业明知自己投放的产品、释放的物质或开具的处方会危害民众，却因短期内能牟取暴利而执意为之。

It doesn't. It's so evil. It's so strange how many times that that has happened in in human history and in fairly recent history where companies know what they're putting out or what they're releasing or what they're prescribing or whatever it is is going to damage people. And they know that short term, they can make a lot of money, and so they do it anyway.

是的。他们持续了几十年这样做，因为你知道，这始于二十世纪二三十年代。

Yeah. And they did for for decades because, you know, this began in the in the twenties and thirties.

所以我们可以假设，关于冶炼的事，他们可能当时并不知情。对吗？至少在十九世纪时是这样。

So we can assume that the smelting thing, they probably didn't know. Correct? Like, it's it's at least in the eighteen hundreds.

对。在十九世纪，他们可能根本没考虑过这类问题。那时没有相关数据。但当这些公司真正运营起来后——比如塔科马的那家冶炼厂属于阿萨科公司，即美国冶炼与精炼公司，由古根海姆家族掌控。

Yeah. In in the eighteen hundreds, they probably weren't thinking about stuff like that. They didn't have data on it. But by the time the companies really got up and running and and the smelter in Tacoma was owned by a company called Asarco, which was the American smelting and refining company owned by the Guggenheim family.

哦，天哪。

Oh, boy.

但他们为艺术做了很多贡献。是啊，我是说，这简直...

And But they've done so much for art. Yeah. I mean, that it's just

他们就好这口。

That's what they like to do.

没错。完全是在粉饰声誉。

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a total kind of whitewashing the reputation.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们是早期开展这类公关的企业之一，而且做得极其成功。

And they were among the, you know, earlier corporations to do that and totally successfully.

太阴暗了。我朋友彼得·伯格给我讲过诺贝尔奖的起源。你知道诺贝尔奖是怎么来的吗？

It's so dark. My friend Peter Berg explained to me the origins of the Nobel Prize. Did you know the origins of the Nobel Prize?

这和炸药有关，对吧？

It has something to do with with explosives. Right?

诺贝尔奖以那位先生命名，当时报纸错误地报道他去世了，还称他为'死亡商人'。他心想天啊，人们竟然这么看我——就因为他发明了炸药。于是他决定必须做点什么来挽回声誉。

The the gentleman who the Nobel Prize is named after, they erroneously reported that he was dead in the newspaper. And they called him the merchant of death in the newspaper. And you're like, oh my god. This is what people think about me because he invented dynamite. And so he's like, I've gotta do something to clean up my reputation.

所以他策划了这个策略：设立以自己命名的 prestigious 奖项，颁发给伟大科学家、诺贝尔和平奖得主等等。现在人们听到'诺贝尔'这个词就会肃然起敬——'他是诺贝尔奖得主'。这就是奖项的起源，本质上是个洗白工程。

So he devised this strategy of awarding this prestigious award named after him to all the great scientists and Nobel Peace Prize and all these different things. So now when people hear the term Nobel, like, oh, he's a Nobel laureate. Oh, he's he's a Nobel Prize winner. And that's the origin of it. He it was just a whitewashing operation.

是啊。发明含铅汽油配方的托马斯·米基利也是同样情况，这家伙真是罪大恶极——他不仅发明了含铅汽油，还发明了氯氟烃，就是制冷剂里破坏臭氧层的物质...

Yeah. I mean, this the same thing happened with the guy who invented the leaded gas formula, Thomas Midgley, who was really a terrible guy. I mean, he invented the the lead and gas stuff. He also invented chlorofluorocarbons, you know, the stuff in refrigerants that caused the

臭氧层空洞？

Ozone layer hole?

对，就是臭氧层空洞。

The hole in the ozone layer.

哦，真棒。

Oh, terrific.

二十世纪两个最具破坏性的科学发现都出自他手。就这样他还获得了美国化学协会的最高荣誉勋章——至今仍保留着。尽管他后来因接触四乙基铅（就是含铅汽油的添加剂）重病缠身，跑去佛罗里达疗养——虽然我觉得铅中毒去佛罗里达根本没用。

So, like, two of the most devastating discoveries, scientific discoveries in the twentieth century are down to the sky. And he was awarded the, you know, highest medal from the, you know, American Chemistry Association, which he still holds. I mean, even though he became really ill as a result, I think, of working with this tetraethyl, it's called, the the substance that was added to to leaded gas. And he, you know, went to Florida to try and heal himself of of this, which I don't think you can do. I mean, I I don't think going to Florida heals lead exposure.

后来他患上了小儿麻痹症导致瘫痪，就发明了一套诡异的滑轮系统帮自己起床。最终他在这个装置里窒息而死——可能是自杀也可能是意外，至今不明。

But he yes. And he developed something which was called polio. You know, he became, you know, unable to walk, and he invented this whole bizarre kind of system of pulleys that he could use to to lift himself out of bed. And eventually, he strangled to death in this sort of harness thing, which the it may have been suicide. It may have been an accident, of unclear.

哇。你最初研究这个是因为对连环杀手感兴趣吗？我一直很奇怪为什么那么多女性对连环杀手着迷——你看所有热门真实罪案播客的听众画像，女性占比都特别高。

Wow. So when you first started investigating this, was your interest in serial killers? You you always had an interest in serial killers, is always weird to me how many women are interested in serial killers. Like, all of the top true crime podcasts, if you look at their demographics, it's a large chunk of it. It's women.

我知道我家的女人们爱看那些真实犯罪节目和连环杀手的故事，这让我毛骨悚然。比如，我家人正在看关于'夜行者'理查德·拉米雷斯的节目，我就受不了。我一看就反胃，实在看不下去。

And I know the women in my house love to watch those true crime shows and those serial killer, which disturbs the shit out of me. Like, my family was watching something on the Night Stalker on Richard Ramirez. And I'm like, I can't watch this. I can't I get sick. I get sick, and I can't watch it.

她们却着迷得很。为什么会这样？你觉得女性为什么对这类题材如此感兴趣？我不是要把你和所有女性混为一谈，但女性对真实犯罪播客确实有种奇怪的痴迷。

They're, like, fascinated. Like, why is that? Why do you think women are so interested? I'm not, like, lumping you in with all women, but there is a weird thing with women in true crime podcasts.

是的。我认为这与女性长期面对恐惧有关——那种可能很模糊、说不清道不明的恐惧。很多女性都有过深夜独行或穿过停车场时害怕的经历，或是直接遭受过男性暴力、家庭暴力。女性或多或少都有这类体验，形成了这种心理基础。

Yeah. I think that that has to do with the fact that women deal with fear, you know, fear of and it may be very, you know, nebulous. It may be kind of unclear what you know? But a lot of women have just had the experience of being afraid walking alone at night or walking through a parking lot or, you know, or they've had direct experience of, you know, some kind of of male violence or aggression, you know, at home, domestic violence. So I think there's a whole gamut of experiences that women have had to one extent or another that feed into that.

对我来说，成长的地方距离泰德·邦迪1974年夏天开始绑架女性的地点只有几英里。当时人们都知道有个罪犯在活动，但'连环杀手'这个术语都还没普及，大家根本不理解这种现象。这确实非常反常。

And for me, it was growing up you know, just a couple of miles from the places where Ted Bundy began abducting women in the summer of, you know, the the 1974. And everybody knew there was somebody out there, this is at a time when the term serial killer wasn't even really in use yet. People didn't really understand the phenomenon. Mhmm. It was still kind of an unusual thing, and and this this was happening.

华盛顿大学的女生从宿舍失踪，街上的人突然消失，几周几个月都杳无音信。1974年7月我13岁，在一个炎热的周日下午，萨马米什湖拥挤的海滩上两名女性失踪——那里离我家就十分钟车程。

You know, women were disappearing from dorm rooms or their rooms at University of Washington. They were disappearing off the street, and then they weren't seen again for weeks, for months. You know? In the July 1974, I was 13. And on a really hot, you know, Sunday afternoon in 1974, two women disappeared from a crowded beach at Lake Sammamish, which was about, you know, ten minutes from my house.

经历过那个时期，那种感受既令人极度不安，又让我迫切想弄明白究竟发生了什么。

And so having had that experience of of being around at that time, it was incredibly you know, it was it was both really disturbing, but also I just really wanted to understand what was happening.

所以你原本就计划写关于连环杀手的书吗？还是对铅和砷的研究促使你写了这本书？

So did you plan on writing a book about serial killers, or was this understanding of the lead and the arsenic what led you down to write this book?

其实我从未想过单纯写连环杀手的书。这类题材已经有很多人写得很好，比如安妮·鲁尔——她认识泰德·邦迪本人，还写了关于他的第一本书。

Yeah. I never really wanted to write a book that was just about serial killers. I mean, I think that's been done. You know? And lots of people have have done that and done a good job.

就是那位认识泰德·邦迪的女作家。

You know? I mean, Anne Rule, the woman who wrote the first book about Ted Bundy, who knew Ted Bundy.

噢，她认识他啊。

Oh, she knew him.

是的。她曾和他在一家强奸危机诊所共事过。

Yes. She she worked with him at a rape crisis clinic

天啊。

Oh my

在西雅图。

god. In Seattle.

对。他在强奸危机诊所工作过。哇。他

Yeah. He worked at a rape crisis clinic. Wow. He

他对强奸研究非常感兴趣。哇。因为，当然，他算是这方面的专家。所以是的。没错。

he was very interested in doing research on rape. Wow. Because, of course, he was something of an expert. So yeah. Yeah.

这就是为什么那本书如此轰动，因为她在他被任何人发现之前就认识他了。她喜欢他。他们是朋友。哇。她还曾载他去参加圣诞派对。

That was why that book was such a phenomenon because she knew him before anybody had identified, you know, anything in him. She liked him. She was friends with him. Wow. She gave him, you know, ride to the Christmas party.

哦天哪。那是在他杀人期间还是开始杀人之前？

Oh my god. Yeah. Was this while he was killing or before he started?

嗯，关于泰德·邦迪，我们真正不知道的是他何时开始杀人。他从不回答这个问题。我书中提到的一个案例——这也是促使我写这本书的原因之一——是1961年8月在塔科马被绑架的8岁女孩安妮·玛丽·伯尔案。当时他14岁，现在他是这起绑架案的主要嫌疑人之一。

Well, the thing that we don't really know about Ted Bundy is when he started killing. He would never answer that question. And one of the cases that I talk about that really is part of what made me wanna write this book is is a case of an eight year old girl who was abducted in Tacoma in 1961, in August 1961, Anne Anne Marie Burr. And he was 14 at that time. And he is now one of the principal subs suspects, I think, behind her aberration.

哇。所以那可能是他14岁时的第一次谋杀。是的。

Wow. So that may have been his first 14. Murder. Yeah.

他有没有虐待动物之类的历史？

Was there, like, a history of him torturing animals or anything along those lines?

不。但FBI开始调查连环杀手的童年过往时，他们发现一个重要现象——这些倾向往往在极年幼时就显现。许多杀手会折磨或杀害家养宠物，诸如此类。但泰德并非如此。他的特殊之处在于生来就不知道父亲是谁——他作为私生子出生于佛蒙特州一家育婴堂，母亲将他遗弃在那里数月后才将他接回。

No. But but one of the things that I think the FBI was discovering when they started doing all this, you know, investigation of of the pasts, you know, the childhood of serial killers, was that this starts really young, that the fantasies and the obsessions with you know, I mean, some of some of them famously do torture or kill the family pets and and so forth. With Ted, that wasn't the case. I think with with him, one of the things you see is that he never knew who his father was. He was born illegitimate at a founding home in Vermont, and his mother left him there for a couple of months before she went back and and kind of retrieved him.

这是这类罪犯的普遍特征：他们要么不知生父是谁，要么与父母关系极度恶劣，可能伴随肢体虐待或性侵。不过我们尚未发现泰德·邦迪存在受虐的确凿证据。

And that's a common factor with a lot of these guys. They don't they don't know their dad. They don't know who he is maybe, or they have, you know, a very bad relationship with the parents. There's maybe abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse. We don't know that about Ted Bundy in terms of the abuse factor.

正因如此，他至今仍令人费解——在他身上看不到那些典型特征。

But he he remains, I think, really puzzling to people for that reason because you don't see some of the usual signs with him.

是因为他拒绝回答问题吗？

And because he refused to answer questions?

其实他接受过不少采访。西雅图金县负责此案的探员——当时接手这起首桩大案的他相当年轻——最终在邦迪死刑待决期间获得了面谈机会。

Well, he talked a lot about you know, various people were able to interview him. The detective in King County in Seattle who was in charge of the investigation. He was actually quite young when he took this on. I think it was his first major case as a detective. He eventually was able to interview Ted Bundy in prison when he was on death row.

但邦迪出于各种原因，始终拒绝直接认罪。他只愿以第三人称假设性陈述，因为仍在企图钻法律空子。

Bundy, for a variety of reasons, wouldn't talk about anything that he did except hypothetically in the third person because he was still trying to work the legal system, and so he didn't want to admit to what he'd done.

他是怎么用第三人称假设性描述的？

How did he talk about it hypothetically in the third person?

就像OJ辛普森那样——他会说'如果有人要做这件事...'

I mean, it was sort of like OJ Simpson or something. He would say, well, if somebody was gonna do this

天啊。

Oh, god.

'...可能会采取这些步骤'。这种把戏一直持续到他死刑执行前几天。最后两三天他终于开始招供，大概想通过交代埋尸地点等信息来换取州长暂缓执行——但佛罗里达州长并未动摇。

Here's what he probably would have done. And so there was a lot of that up until the very last days of Bundy's sojourn on death row. And then he finally began confessing in the last two or three days in an attempt, I think, to get the governor interested in perhaps extending his life because he could give information about where bodies had been left and and so forth. But that didn't convince the governor of Florida.

所以当你发现这处房产需要清除砷污染时，这就开启了你试图将该地区与连环杀手及毒素联系起来的探索之旅。你发现了什么？比如，那个特定区域是否 disproportionately 产生连环杀手？

So when you saw this real estate and you found out that it needed to have arsenic removed from it, this began this sort of journey that you went on to try to connect this area with serial killers and and and toxins. And what did you find? Like, is there a disproportionate number of serial killers that come from that particular area?

是的。根据我的调查，那里的数量确实异常地多，但讨论具体数字很困难，因为我们根本不知道正常的连环杀手数量应该是多少

Yeah. There really are, as I discovered, a a really kind of extraordinary number, and it's hard to talk about these numbers simply because we don't know what a normal number of serial killers

其中部分案件被侦破了吗？那么该地区是否存在未被发现的连环杀手，或者被归咎于不明身份者的死亡事件？

And is is some of them caught? So are there, like, undiscovered serial killers that are in that area or maybe deaths that are attributed to unknown people?

有几起案件至今未破。你知道有种叫'肢解谋杀案'的吗？就是西北部海岸陆续发现人类脚部等残肢的案件，始终无法确认死者身份

There are several cases that have never been resolved. You know, there's something called the dismemberment murders that, you know Dismemberment murders? Yeah. Up in up in the Northwest where, you know, various feet and things were found washing up on chore, and nobody could figure out who they belonged to.

我记得这个。是最近几年的事对吧？我们说的是同个案件吗？

And remember that. That was fairly recently. Right? Am I thinking of the same thing?

你可能记成别的案件了。我想这起...

It it may be another thing that you're thinking of. I think this

时间线对不上？好像是鞋子里装着人脚那种案子

dates It was like shoes that had a human foot in it.

那些可能只是... 你知道... 某些

And they could have just been, you know, bodies of people who

溺水者

Drowned.

溺亡者的遗体，因为这种情况确实会发生。所以这算是个未解之谜。爱达荷州还有起悬案，这类未破案件确实存在

Who drowned because that's, I think, what happens in some cases. So I think that's a a sort of question mark. There are a couple of others. There's one in Idaho that they've never solved. So there are those cases.

但即便抛开这些不谈，我花了很多时间研究1974年，因为那一年在全国范围内，尤其是西北地区，连环杀手的活动似乎异常猖獗。那一年臭名昭著的是，邦迪彻底挣脱了可能曾有过的任何束缚，开始几乎每月绑架女性。仅在1974年，我就在西雅图或5号州际公路沿线发现了至少六名活跃的连环杀手，他们几乎同时在作案。

But even aside from those, I mean, I spent a lot of time looking at the year 1974 because it seemed really active in terms of what was happening with serial killers around the country and in Northwest. And it was the famously the year when when Bundy really kind of broke free of any restraints he might have once had and and began abducting women basically kind of like once a month during that year. And in 1974, I found at least six active serial killers in Seattle or along the I 5 Corridor who were all kinda working at the same time.

哇。

Wow.

这在我看来数量惊人。单看塔科马市，1974年及七十年代中期暴力犯罪率直线飙升，持续攀升。不幸的是，这种现象在全国范围内都能看到——七八十年代的暴力犯罪率达到了前所未有的高峰。

And that seems like a lot to me. And just looking at Tacoma, the rate of violent crime really skyrocketed in 1974 and in the mid seventies. It's just started going up and up and up. And you see this, unfortunately, across the country. The rate of violent crime in the seventies and eighties rose to heights that had not been seen before

那么

And is

在这个国家。

in this country.

还有其他因素吗？比如含铅汽油是个主要因素，但你认为还有哪些环境毒素之类的原因？为什么偏偏是1974年？

Are there other factors? So there's leaded gasoline, which is a major factor. But what other factors do you think in terms of, like, environmental toxins and things? Like, why 1974?

学界提出过多种理论。有人指出七十年代中期正是婴儿潮一代——这个人口密度庞大的群体——开始步入成年阶段，进入二三十岁这个犯罪高发年龄段。此外还有经济动荡、

Well, there are various theories that have been put forth. I mean, people have pointed out that in the mid seventies was when the baby boom generation, which was, you know, large in terms of of its population density, that those people had started to kind of come of age. They'd they'd entered the period when you're most likely to commit crimes, which is your twenties or 30s. And so there was that. There was a lot of economic uncertainty.

经济衰退。七十年代初尼克松执政，越南战争持续，六十年代遗留的暴力阴影未消。这些都被视为促成因素。

There was a recession. Nixon was in the White House early on in the 70s. There was the Vietnam War. There had been a lot of violence during the the sixties. And so people point to those factors as contributing to this as well.

但根据现有科学研究，我认为还必须关注当时日益泛滥的毒素。铅、镉（另一种与攻击性密切相关的重金属）、锌、锰等物质——特别是锌——

But I think also, you know, based on the science that's being done, you do need to look at the toxins that were becoming really, really prevalent. The lead cadmium is another heavy metal that's very similar to lead in the body in terms of its association with aggression. Zinc, manganese, all these things were being Zinc.

锌也会引发攻击性？

Yeah. Zinc is associated with aggression?

我不确定这与攻击性有直接关联，但这是构成特定颗粒物污染暴露的因素之一，如今已知这类污染会引发各种健康问题，比如心脏疾病。铅本质上是一种毒素，一种毒物。当它进入人体后，极易渗透到大脑。尤其是长期大量接触的情况下，可能导致多种健康损害。

I don't know that it's associated with aggression, but it's one of these things that was forming the the, exposure to particular particulate pollution, which is now associated with all kinds of health problems, you know, heart problems. I mean, lead is a is a toxin. It's a poison. And so you put it in the body and it becomes you know, it's very easy for that to reach your brain. And what happens is that, you know, especially if you're exposed to a lot of this stuff, you can be sickened in all kinds of ways.

可能引发心脏疾病，现已证实与多种痴呆症、阿尔茨海默症、肌萎缩侧索硬化症有关。铅的危害不胜枚举。但统计数据显示，七十年代中期空气中铅含量的增加，确实可能与暴力犯罪率上升存在关联。

You can get health heart problems. It's now been associated with various forms of dementia, Alzheimer's, ALS. So there's a lot of things that lead can cause. But they have shown statistically that the increase in lead in the population in the air in the mid seventies really may have contributed to a rise in violent crime.

汽油中添加铅是从哪一年开始的？

What year did they start putting lead in gasoline?

这项技术发明于二十世纪二十年代。但回想早期，汽车普及率很低——三十年代还经历过大萧条时期。

Well, they invented the stuff in the nineteen twenties. But, you know, just thinking back to those early decades, not that many people had cars. Right. You know? And there was a big depression, of course, in the nineteen thirties.

当时的交通规模与现在不可同日而语。福特汽车...没错...那时家里有辆车都算稀罕，更别说两三辆了。

So there's not a lot of driving happening in terms of the the what we see now. The Ford. Yeah. The the it just wasn't as as big of a deal. It was, you know, rare to have one car, much less, you know, two or or three.

二战时期的情况很有意思——我在书中专门用一个小章节讨论这点。战争期间汽油实行配给制，军需消耗了绝大部分资源。但战争本身刺激了铅、铜等金属的空前产量。

And then during the war, you had I mean, the war World War two is really interesting to look at in terms of lead because I have a sort of little chapter about this. Because during World War two, gasoline, of course, was rationed. You know, they needed all of it for the war effort. But the war effort itself raised the amount of metals. All these metals lead, copper, etc.

这些军用金属的生产污染，后来成为超级基金项目的治理重点——美国许多污染场地的源头都可追溯至二战。铅一旦进入环境就极难清除，这才是根本问题。

Were needed so intensively for the war that they began to be produced more than at any other time in world history. And so the pollution from that, you know, from producing all these, you know, tanks and vehicles and planes and everything that they needed was really going to form the basis of what would become the Superfund program because a lot of the Superfund sites in this country can be traced back to World War two. And so that's when a lot of the stuff started entering the environment. And once it's there, it's really hard to get rid of it. I mean, that's the problem with lead.

它不会自行消散，只会长期滞留，最终融入我们的生活环境——变成房屋阁楼里的尘埃。战后五六十年代，随着汽车大规模普及...

It doesn't wash away. It doesn't go anywhere. It just hangs around and becomes, you know, part of our environment. It becomes dust that is, you know, in people's houses or their attics. And and that, I think, is what people eventually started, you know, when when after the war, people started driving lots and lots more, you know, in the fifties and sixties.

当时美国经济蓬勃发展，汽车首次进入千家万户，民众开始大规模驾车出行。

This country particularly was doing really well economically, and everybody was buying cars and driving them for the first time, you know, en masse. And so

人类历史上的重要节点。

history. In human history.

没错。因此我认为，那时它确实成为一种严重的污染物。到了七十年代，那些五十年代出生的孩子们开始显现铅中毒的影响。

That's right. And so it really becomes, I think, a a heavy pollutant around that time. And so by the seventies, the kids who had been, you know, born in the fifties, they're starting to show the effects of lead poisoning.

我有个朋友曾在布鲁克林短暂居住，他有个很小的后院想种些植物，搞个小花园。但他做了土壤检测——他是个非常聪明的人——把样本送到大学化验，结果发现全是铅。他当时就懵了：这到底是怎么回事？

I have a friend who briefly lived in Brooklyn, and he had a very small backyard that he's gonna try to grow some plants in, grow grow a small garden. But he did some soil samples. He's a very, very intelligent guy. Did some soil samples and sent it to university to get it tested, and it was just filled with lead. And he was like, what is this all about?

后来他才知道，这都是含铅汽油造成的。这事发生在二月，大概是2012或2013年2月。专家告诉他除了彻底挖除换新土外，还可以种特定植物来清除部分土壤中的铅。

And he was like, it's all from leaded gasoline. So this was in the February. So I think this was around 02/2012, 02/2013. And they had told him there's a few things that you could do. There's certain plants that you could grow that would remove some of it from the soil other than completely excavating and replacing it with fresh soil.

但他整个后院基本都被铅污染了。是啊...（突然转话题）'当你独自开车，就等于与希特勒同行。快来加入汽车共享俱乐部吧！'——这是汽油配给时期的广告。

But his whole backyard was essentially lead poisoned. Yeah. It's When you ride alone, you ride with Hitler. Join a car sharing club today. That was during the the gas rationing days.

太疯狂了，这是最离谱的广告。'你真的试过加入加油俱乐部来省油吗？他们能做到，我们也可以。' 哦，小丑车吗？

Crazy. That was the craziest one. But Have you really tried to save gas by getting into a gas club? They do it so can we. Oh, clown cars?

那是什么？运兵车？抱歉。对，那到底是什么？

What is that? A wagon? Sorry. Yes. What is that?

后面挤满士兵的那种。哦好吧。哇，所以这些全都是在宣传汽油配给。

It's a bunch of soldiers in back. Oh, okay. Wow. So they were just this was all just about gas rationing. Wow.

'节省燃料为前线制造弹药'。哇。'那个拼命烧煤的女儿'。天，他们都在指责她。

Safe fuel to make munitions for the battle. Wow. The daughter who heaped on the coal. Wow. They're mad at her.

看看她。哦不，我只是想取暖活命啊。那么这些为战争生产物资的污染地区，暴力事件有增加吗？

Look at her. Oh, no. I'm trying to stay warm and stay alive. Wow. So is there an uptick in violence in these areas where they were making stuff for the war effort where they would be polluting the area?

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网址是betterhelp.com/jre。

That's better,help,.com/jre.

没错。塔科马市的事件如今已有详尽记录。另一个发生类似情况的是得克萨斯州埃尔帕索市——阿萨科公司自1890年代起就在当地运营大型冶炼厂，数十年来持续排放污染物。战争期间，所有冶炼厂虽未被政府接管，但政府实施了价格管制等措施，防止这些企业漫天要价。大量产出物资都被征用于战争。

Yeah. I mean, you you definitely see, you know, what happened in Tacoma is is very well recorded now. Another city where this happened was El Paso, Texas because Asarco had another major smelter in El Paso that had started in the eighteen nineties and had been spewing this stuff out for decades. But all of the smelters during the war were kind of they weren't taken over by the government, but the government introduced all kinds of price fixing and and so forth to to make it not possible for these companies to raise prices astronomically. And and and a lot of the stuff was requisitioned for the war effort.

到1970年代，埃尔帕索居民开始发现冶炼厂烟囱周边区域存在严重铅污染。我当时觉得埃尔帕索这个案例很有趣，但转念一想那里没出过连环杀手。结果刚搜索就发现——‘夜行者’理查德·拉米雷斯正是在埃尔帕索冶炼厂附近长大的。

So in El Paso, by the nineteen seventies, they were starting to discover that this whole area around the smokestack of the smelter was heavily lead contaminated. And what I, you know, just got I I thought, well, El Paso, that's interesting. But there were no serial killers in El Paso. And so I googled that. And, like, you know, within a minute, I discover that Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, grew up in El Paso, not very far from the smelter.

虽然他现在总与洛杉矶联系在一起——因其多数谋杀案发生在那里——但他并非在洛杉矶长大。

And, you know, we associate him now with Los Angeles because that's where he committed most of his murders, but he did not grow up there.

哇。所以这些化学物质与暴力行为确实存在关联？这种现象是否已被广泛认知？如果绘制污染最严重地区的地图，是否也能观察到暴力犯罪和连环杀手数量的激增？不仅限于太平洋西北地区，埃尔帕索也是如此吗？

Wow. So this association with, these chemicals and violence and so this is well known. And is if you could look at a map of the areas where this is the biggest problem, is there also a correlation with, an uptick in violent crime and an uptick in serial killers? Like, is it not just Pacific Northwest? Is it around El Paso as well?

是的。当你查阅埃尔帕索的暴力犯罪率数据时，会发现七十年代确实开始攀升。两者似乎确实存在关联。

Yeah. When you start looking up, okay. Well, what's the crime rate, the violent crime rate in El Paso? And, yes, that starts going up in the nineteen seventies. And so there there does seem to be an association with this.

有位叫里克·内文的经济学家兼社会科学家，他发表的在线论文中包含了约45张图表，展示暴力犯罪增长、青少年怀孕率上升（这涉及女性受影响的方式）等数据。冲动性增强可能导致七八十年代青少年怀孕率显著增加——如果你经历过那个年代，应该记得这曾是严重的社会问题。

There's a guy named Rick Nevin who was who is an an economist and social scientist, and he put together a paper about this thing which was published online that includes about 45 graphs of all these different know, showing the rise in violent crime, the rise in teen pregnancies, which is sort of how women come into it. The impulsivity seems to have perhaps led to a real rise in teen pregnancies in the seventies and eighties, which you'll you'll you know, if you'll remember, that was kind of a big thing then. You know?

这是否也与性解放运动有关？另外口服避孕药是什么时候问世的？

And is also tied is this also tied to the sexual revolution? I mean and and then, also, when was birth control, like, oral birth control introduced?

我想那是在二十世纪六十年代，六十年代初，那东西首次面世。具体年份我说不上来。但确实，我敢肯定这里面有某些

I think that was in the nineteen sixties, early sixties that that first becomes available. I can't tell you exactly what year. But yeah. I mean, I'm sure that there is some

还有一大堆其他因素。我们不能把所有问题都归咎于铅和砷。

There's a bunch of other factors. It's not like we can pin everything on lead and arsenic.

没错。

That's right.

但这些是促成因素。

But there's contributing factors.

当然，人们总会指出，你看，塔科马和埃尔帕索并不是每个人都成了连环杀手，这确实没错。

And, of course, people, you know, always point out, well, you know, not everybody in Tacoma and El Paso became a serial killer, which, of course, is true.

但有可能像你说的泰德·邦迪那样，是多种因素共同导致这个人变成那样，其中也包括铅。

But it's possible, like, what you're talking about, Ted Bundy. There's a bunch of factors that lead this person to becoming that, but also lead.

是啊。就像我在书里某处写的，一点点额外的铅，可能... 嗯。某种因素，你知道，也许他们本身就有很多其他问题，比如虐待、贫困。1950年代很多婴儿是用产钳接生的，这导致一定比例的孩子脑部受损。所以我认为这是多种因素共同造成的大脑创伤。

Yeah. I mean, you know, as I say somewhere in the book, a little extra led, you know, may have been Yeah. Something that, you know, maybe they had a lot of other factors to begin with, abuse, poverty. In the 1950s, a lot of babies were delivered with forceps, which caused brain damage in a certain percentage of of kids. So I think you're looking at a lot of different things that contributed to trauma to the brain.

我觉得现在人们真正关注的是CTE（慢性创伤性脑病）和脑损伤这方面。我们现在看到橄榄球运动员因反复头部受创，这确实会引发暴力和攻击行为。

I think now they're really focusing on that in terms of CTE and, you know, brain damage. We see that now in football players who've had head trauma repeatedly that this causes can cause violence and aggression.

还有冲动行为。对。这是个严重问题。有意思的是这种情况也出现在未受头部创伤的女性身上，青少年怀孕等现象与之相关——只需要冲动倾向稍微增强一点，就会看到相应的后果。

And impulsivity. Right. It's a huge issue. Yeah. It's fascinating that it also exists in women who have not had head trauma and the correlation between teen pregnancies and things along those lines that you're just just all it would take is, like, a slight percentage more of impulsivity, and then you would see a corresponding result of that.

做不出明智决定...嗯。关于自己的行为。

Not making great decisions Yeah. About what you're doing.

汽油中添加铅这件事简直太疯狂了。知道这一切仅仅是因为有人无法给乙醇申请专利，简直荒谬。他们无法为其他能达到相同效果的配方申请专利——这里的相同效果是指防止汽油导致引擎爆震——但这些配方对那个人来说利润不够丰厚。

The gas thing, the lead in the gas thing is just crazy. It's just crazy to know that that was all done because someone couldn't patent ethanol. They couldn't patent other formulations that would lead to the same result, but I mean, the same result in terms of not having gas making your engine knock, but wouldn't be as profitable for this person.

是啊。而且我觉得这很扭曲。或许值得给人们解释下冶炼厂是做什么的，因为现在大家都不熟悉这个了。我们的城市里已经没有这些设施了。但这些巨型初级冶炼厂是用来熔炼矿石的。

Yeah. And and I think twisted. You know, it may be worth mentioning or describing what a smelter does for people because I think people are not familiar with that anymore. We don't have them in our cities anymore. But, you know, what these things were were these giant primary smelters to melt rock.

明白吗？就是把从矿场开采的含有各种金属的矿石——包括砷，砷就是这么来的——但矿石里富含铅、铜、银、金等金属，把这些矿石放进巨型熔炉里熔化。整个过程会产生大量污染，烟囱排放出颗粒物污染。

You know? It was like taking the rocks from mines that were full of all these different metals, you know, including arsenic. This is where the arsenic came from. But they were full of metals like, you know, lead and copper and silver and gold and melting those rocks in these giant furnaces. And all of this put off an enormous amount of pollution, you know, particulate pollution that was going up the smokestack.

运营这些工厂的公司会私自保留所有有价值的金属，比如银、铜等等。所以他们确实安装了过滤器。但冶炼厂有时会出现故障，过滤器会失效。爱达荷州有个可怕案例，邦克山公司曾拥有全球最大的银矿之一，他们......

And they were you know, the companies that ran these things were keeping all the valuable metals that they could for themselves, you know, the silver and the copper and and all of that. So they did have filters on them. But one of the things that happened sometimes with these smelters is that they would kind of fail or the filters would fail. There's this horrifying example in Idaho. It was a company called Bunker Hill that was one of

的

the

在90号州际公路旁的凯洛格镇建有铅冶炼厂。如果你曾从蒙大拿米苏拉等地开车去西雅图，就会经过这里。他们建造了巨型冶炼设施处理矿产物。1973年过滤厂房发生火灾，导致本该阻止铅排放的过滤器损毁。

largest silver mines, I think, in the world. And they had a lead smelter in this town called Kellogg, which is right on I 90. If you've ever driven on I 90, you know, from Missoula, Montana or something like that to Seattle, you've driven through this place. And they built, you know, this this giant smelter facility to to handle all the stuff they were pulling out of the mines. And in 1973, they had a fire in their filtration building that destroyed most of the filter that was try you know, the thing that was supposed to keep lead from going up the smokestack.

这个镇上有孩子啊。烟囱正对面就是一所小学。天啊。关于那所学校的描述太可怕了，老师常误以为工厂起火，因为烟尘实在太大了。

And there were kids in this town. There were there was an elementary school right across the street from the smokestack. Jesus. And and the descriptions of that school are so horrifying because the teachers used to think that sometimes that the that the facility had caught fire because there was so much smoke. Oh, god.

但实际上只是烟囱在排放。过滤器失效后，当时属于海湾西方工业公司的他们做了个草率计算：这些孩子的命每条只值1100万美元——他们想着'如果继续无过滤运营会被起诉，但值得冒险，毕竟利润......'

But in fact, it was there wasn't you know, it was just what the smokestack was putting out. But after that filter failed, that company, which was owned by Gulf and Western at the time, did a kind of back of the napkin calculation of what those kids' lives were worth because they felt like, okay. We're gonna get sued if we keep running the plant without filtration. But is that really gonna matter? Because these kids' lives are probably only worth about $11,000,000 apiece.

我的天。他们的利润高到可以无视这些孩子的死活继续运营。

Oh my god. Our profits are such that it makes more sense to keep operating regardless of what happens to these kids.

太可怕了。

Oh my god.

我们之所以知道这些，是因为最终提起了诉讼，你知道，他们确实上了法庭。而且有孩子牵涉其中。有一个婴儿体内的铅含量超标程度，连医生都前所未见。

And we know this because of the lawsuits that were ultimately filed because, you know, they they did end up in court. And there were kids. There was a a baby who was more lead poisoned than any human being that the doctors had ever seen.

这里记载着，火灾爆发后损毁了过滤设备。因此在接下来的一年半里，冶炼厂继续运营，受重金属污染的粉尘如雨般降落在该地区。期间，州政府与美国疾病控制中心对当地儿童进行了血铅筛查，结果令人忧心。例如凯洛格市的儿童平均血铅浓度达50微克/分升，而CDC建议的安全上限仅为5微克。

So it says here that after it destroyed the the fire broke out, that destroyed the filters. So it's for the next year and a half, the smelter continued to operate and dust polluted with heavy metals rained down on the area. During that time, children living in the area were screened for lead by the state and the US Center for Disease Control, and the results were foreboding. Children in Kellogg, for example, averaged 50 micrograms per deciliter of blood. The CDC recommends five micrograms high enough to warrant concern.

血铅水平超过45微克的儿童建议接受螯合疗法，就是通过口服或静脉注射二巯基丁二酸这类化合物——我不知道这个词怎么念，你会读吗？

And children with levels above 45 are advised to undergo chelation therapy, which involves administrating compounds like I don't know how to say that word. How do you say that word?

我也不知道。

I don't know.

二巯基丁二酸通过口服或静脉注射来清除血液中的重金属。铅这种神经毒素会导致精神分裂症、学业表现差、认知能力低下及注意力缺陷多动症。一旦进入血液，铅会富集在大脑、肾脏、肝脏和骨骼中。孕妇体内的铅还能透过胎盘毒害胎儿。天啊。

Dimer, captosuccinic acid, either orally or intravenously to remove heavy metals from the bloodstream. Lead is a neurotoxin linked to schizophrenia, poor academic performance, low cognitive ability, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Once the metal gets into the blood, it concentrates in the brain, the kidneys, the liver, and the bones. In pregnant women, lead can cross into the placenta, poisoning their unborn babies. Holy shit.

是啊，这简直是场噩梦。而且

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a nightmarish thing. And

看这段记录：'我的天...听着，俄亥俄州凯洛格市的弗洛里——我说的这个人——青少年时期就遭受慢性铅中毒。他就读的银王学校建于1928年，位于邦克山铅冶炼厂和锌厂之间的峡谷，科达伦河的支流从校旁流过。弗洛里说河水泛着荧光绿，就像荧光棒那种诡异的亮色。'

Look at this. It says, oh my god. And so listen to this. Slowly poison as a teenager in Kellogg, Ohio, Floory, this person I'm talking about, attended the Silver King School built in 1928 in the Gulch Gulch between Bunker Hill lead smelter and zinc plant, an offshoot of the Coeur D'Alene River flowed by the school. It was, says Florrie, a light glowing green color, sort of a glow like a glow stick.

上帝啊...1973年那场火灾——就是我们正在讨论的这场——哦天哪...'泛着荧光绿的河水'。

Oh god. In 1973, a fire broke out, and so this is the the fire that we're talking about. Oh my god. A a light glowing green color.

没错。妈的，我以前住在新泽西，就在泽西城附近

Yeah. Fuck. I used to live in New Jersey right by the in in Jersey City

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

就在自由州立公园旁边，那里有大片区域因为污染严重而禁止公众进入。是的。我记得，因为从我在泽西城的公寓其实可以步行到自由州立公园，但必须经过一个汽车粉碎场，就是那种压缩汽车的设施。那里到处都是重工业和污染物。要进入公园还得穿过一条架在溪流上的小木径，溪水就是那种颜色。

Right by the Liberty State Park, which a bunch of the acreage of that was off limits to people because it was so polluted. Yeah. And I remember, you know, because you could actually walk from my apartment in Jersey City to Liberty Liberty State Park, but you had to go by this, you know, place that was crushing cars, one of those facilities where they compact cars. And, I mean, there was all this heavy industry there and and pollutants. And you had to walk across this little wooden trail over a a stream to get to the park, and the water was that color.

那颜色简直——天啊，是一种自然界根本不存在的恶心色调。你看着它只会想：这到底是什么？水里有什么东西？

I mean, it was like Oh. This disgusting, you know, color not found in nature. And you just looked at it and thought, what what is that? What's in that?

而这还是发生在有基本监管体系的美国。想象一下当这些公司把业务转移到毫无监管的第三世界国家，贿赂官员肆意污染时的情形。

And this is in The United States Of America where we have at least some kind of regulations. Just imagine what is happening when these companies are allowed to ship off to third world countries where there's no regulation, and they're bribing officials and just polluting everything.

没错。SARCO公司就是典型案例。当环保署成立后，随着《清洁空气法》《清洁水法》等法规出台，包括工作场所的环保规定——想想在那些冶炼厂工作有多可怕——这些企业基本上就因违法经营而无法维持了。

Yeah. I mean, that's what happened with the SARCO. You know, it it once the EPA had sort of got started and and the various clean air and clean water acts were passed and and legislation about what you could do in the workplace because, I mean, imagine what it was like to work in these smelters. It was Yeah. It just basically became illegal to operate them, and the companies could no longer afford to do it.

所以它们在1980年代几乎全部倒闭。但这真是美国历史上令人震惊的时期：利润竟然比人命更重要。天啊。像爱达荷州的科达伦地区，既有科达伦市，还有个巨大的科达伦湖。

So they all pretty much went out of business in the nineteen eighties. But it it it is just an incredible sort of time in America because it was like, well, what's the trade off here? You know, the the profits are worth much more than people's lives. Gosh. And that place, the Coeur D'Alene you know, there's a town, city called Coeur D'Alene in Idaho, but there's also this giant lake, Lake Coeur D'Alene.

邦克山矿区冶炼厂的所有污染物都顺流而下，如今沉积在科达伦湖底。虽然这里被列为超级基金项目多年，但根本无法彻底清理——那些含铅沉积物一旦搅动反而会造成二次污染，几乎无解。

And all that pollution from Bunker Hill, from the mines, from the smelter, it all went downriver and is now sitting at the bottom Yeah. Of Lake Coeur D'Alene. And that's been a superfund project for many, many years, but they really can't clean that up because it's it's the kind of thing where you try to remove the sediment that's full of all the lead and stuff, and stirs everything up. And so it's really, really almost impossible to to clean a

本期节目由The Farmer's Dog赞助。我们都认同长期食用高度加工食品不健康，那为什么狗粮却以膨化粮这种超加工食品为主流？

lot of that. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. I think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal. So why is processed food the status quo for dog food? Because that's what kibble is, an ultra processed food.

其实有更健康的选择：The Farmer's Dog的新鲜犬粮。用真材实料的肉蔬温和烹制，保留营养的同时避免超加工带来的危害，绝非随意拼凑的原料。

But a healthy alternative exists, the farmer's dog. They make fresh food for dogs. And what does it look like? Real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra processing. And it's not just random ingredients thrown together.

他们的配方由驻场兽医营养师研发——这些专业犬类营养学家全力倡导新鲜饮食。更独特的是会根据狗狗需求分装餐食，避免过量喂食，轻松管理体重。

Their food is formulated by on staff board certified vet nutritionists. These people are experts on dog nutrition, and they're all in on fresh food. The farmer's dog also does something unique. They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs. This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy.

研究表明保持理想体重的狗狗寿命可延长两年半。登录farmersdog.com/rogan可享首单五折包邮优惠（限新客户）。

Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer. Head to the farmersdog.com/rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. This offer is for new customers only.

本期节目由Squarespace赞助播出。你是否曾在网购时遇到网站直接显示'让我告诉你'的界面？如果使用Squarespace就不会发生这种情况。Squarespace的设计智能让每个人都能打造美观、个性化的网站，满足你的独特需求。通过Squarespace支付系统，只需点击几下即可轻松管理付款。

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Have you ever been shopping online and the website just gave you the Let me tell you. That wouldn't happen if they used Squarespace. Squarespace design intelligence empowers anyone to build beautiful, more personalized websites tailored to your unique needs. And with Squarespace payments, it's super easy to manage payments with just a few clicks.

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停一下。对。我们前几天讨论过，其实根本不该吃淡水鱼。因为淡水鱼的问题在于所有污染物都会沉积在这些湖泊里——静止的水体中，淡水鱼就泡在各类化学物质和重金属里，这真的很可怕。吃淡水鱼接触永久性化学物的概率高得离谱。具体数值是多少来着？

Stop. Yeah. We were talking about this the other day that you really shouldn't even eat freshwater fish because freshwater fish the the problem is because of all the pollutants that settle into these lakes, when you don't have flowing water, freshwater fish is just sitting in all these chemicals and all these heavy metals, and it's it's, you know, it's really disturbing. Like, if you eat freshwater fish, your exposure to forever chemicals is, like, ridiculously high. Like, what what was the number?

我们前几天查过，吃一条淡水鱼相当于...我记得好像是接触一年份的永久性化学物。天啊。对。双酚A之类的各种恶心物质，等我们发现时为时已晚。吃一条淡水鱼等于喝一个月含永久性化学物的水。

We we pulled it up the other day, but it it's akin to, like, eating one freshwater fish is akin to I believe it's, like, a year of exposure to forever chemicals. Yikes. Yeah. BPAs and all these different disgusting things that are a part of our world that we didn't know until it was too late. Eating one freshwater fish equals a month of drinking Forever Chemicals water.

我的天。淡水鱼体内检出高浓度PFAS，弱势群体风险最大。记得我们拍电视节目时去过底特律——这个曾经世界第三富裕如今极度贫困的城市。当地穷人在湖边捕鱼果腹，

Oh my god. PFAS found in high levels in freshwater fish with most concern for vulnerable communities. I I remember we did this television show once, and we were in Detroit. And Detroit, which is notoriously very poor and at one point in time was the third richest city in the world. But when we were there, these people were, fishing in this lake, really, obviously, very poor people, and just catching food in this lake.

我当时就想：这些人吃的到底是什么？这明显是被污染的水域，而且就在工厂旁边。但他们别无选择，总要填饱肚子。

And I was like, oh my god. Like, what are these people eating? Like, this is clearly polluted water, and it was just outside of a plant. And, you know, they had no choice. They needed food.

这些穷人只能去那里捕鱼，谁知道他们正承受着怎样的健康危害。

And so they they went there. They're poor, and who knows what's what kind of health consequences these poor people are suffering from.

确实。贫困社区总是受害最深。问题是...

Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely the the poor communities that get the worst. The thing is it's like

一百五十年前这些水域还纯净无暇。短短时间内就...想想这些湖泊河流存在了多久，几百年间就...

a hundred and fifty years ago, all that was pristine. It's a such a short amount of time. Yeah. If you think about how long those lakes existed, how long these river systems existed in in a couple of hundred years

是啊。

Yeah.

我们为了利润，基本上永远地毁掉了一切。

We've ruined everything essentially forever for profit.

是啊，绝对是这样。

Yeah. Absolutely.

他们心知肚明，这才是最恶心的。听你说爱达荷州那个冶炼厂火灾的事，他们明明知道后果，却草草计算这些孩子的生命价值，简直令人作呕。虽然难以置信人会如此行事，但我清楚他们确实如此。

And they knew it, and that's what's sick. The thing and you're telling me about this smelting plant and the fire in Idaho and the fact that they knew and they they made a back of a napkin calculation as to these children's lives, that is so disgusting. It's it's so hard to believe that that's how people operate, but yet I know they do.

对，这就是谋杀。所以我称之为谋杀之地。这些企业行为者的所作所为同样恶劣。

Yeah. I mean, it's it's murder. Yeah. And that's why I called it murder land. You know, I think that the behavior of these corporate actors was as bad.

或许比较不太恰当，但人们已逐渐看清企业的谋杀式行径。他们根本不在乎承担责任，只顾追逐利润，让我们承担代价。在理性世界里，这种情况必须改变。

I mean, it's maybe pernicious to compare. But I think that people have come to see that the ways that corporations have behaved is murderous. You know, that they're not I mean, aside from, you know, just the issue of taking responsibility, they're just gonna go ahead with what they wanna do and make the profits that they want and leave us to pay the price. And that, I think, is something that in a sane world would have to change. You know?

我们应该在企业行动前就审查他们的计划。

We would have to look at what a corporation wants to do before they start doing it.

没错。

Yeah.

要提前评估：如果他们执意推进，我们如何预防潜在危害？若无法预防，就不该让他们运营。

You know? And and figure out, okay. Well, if they wanna proceed with this, how do we prevent the damage that could occur? And if they can't figure out how to prevent it, they shouldn't be operating.

可他们还会撒谎。就像制药公司那样，做十项显示危害的研究，然后篡改其中一项显示疗效的研究发表，掩盖其他不利结果。产品上市后，内部邮件却显示他们早知会出问题。

Though, also, they lie. They lie. Whatever they're gonna tell us. I mean, we found this out from pharmaceutical drug companies that when they run studies, they'll run 10 studies that show damage, and they'll find one study that they can kinda manipulate into showing some sort of efficacy. And then they'll publish that one study and bury the other studies that show damage and then release a product and then have internal emails where they show that they know that this is gonna cause problems.

这就是万络止痛药事件，导致约六万美国人死亡。虽然人们不愿把他们比作连环杀手，但明知会害死人还要赚钱，这不叫谋杀叫什么？

And this is the issue with the the drug Vioxx that wound up killing somewhere in the neighborhood of sixty thousand Americans. And I know people don't like to equate those people with serial killers. But what else would you call that? What else would you call if you know that you're gonna kill people Yeah. But you also gonna make money?

而你决定，无论如何都要这么做。无论如何都要做。让我们赚点钱吧。结果六万人因此丧生。还有谁知道有多少人幸存下来却得了中风，这个数字也相当庞大。

And you decide, let's do it anyway. Let's do it anyway. Let's make some money. And sixty thousand people die because of it. And then who knows how many people also survived but got strokes, and it's a large number.

是的。由于证据被销毁，现在很难确切知道有多少人直接或间接受到这些冶炼厂的伤害。他们中许多人甚至专门雇人散布虚假信息。在塔科马，冶炼厂有位医生撰写虚假论文声称工人接触砷不会受到伤害，实际上他的数据却显示工厂工人死于肺癌的比例异常高。而他隐瞒了这些信息。

Yeah. It's now very difficult to figure out how many people were directly and indirectly harmed by these smelters because of the destruction of evidence. Many of them had sort of, people on staff whose job it was to put out false information. In Tacoma, there was a guy, a doctor at the smelter who wrote false papers saying that, oh, the workers aren't being harmed by exposure to arsenic, when in fact, his numbers showed that people who worked at the plant were dying of an elevated percentage of lung cancer. And he suppressed that information.

他说，你知道，他说这些人死于心力衰竭——但谁最终不是死于心脏停跳呢？他基本上就是在篡改死亡证明上的信息，并发表论文企图证明砷不是毒物。

He said, you know, he said their deaths were from heart failure, which everybody dies of heart failure. You know? So he basically was falsifying the information from their death certificates and publishing papers, you know, designed to make it look like arsenic wasn't a poison.

公司很可能为此重金奖励了他。这就是责任分散的问题——当你对股东负有每季度持续增收的义务时，你就得想办法实现目标。然后你会意识到：哦，我只是庞大机器中的零件，只管赚钱就好，后果与我无关。

And probably nicely rewarded by the corporation for doing It's a this is just this issue of diffusion of responsibility when you have this obligation to your shareholders to continually make each quarter generate more income. And then you have to figure out how to do that. And then you realize, like, oh, I'm just a part of a big thing. I'm just gonna do my job to get more money. I'm not gonna think about the consequences.

我只需要戴上眼罩，想着靠这些钱能买到的度假别墅就行了。

I'm just gonna put blinders on and think about my vacation home that I'm gonna get out of all this.

没错。你关于谎言的描述非常准确。连环杀手就是这样，他们对所有事都说谎，甚至包括那些根本没必要撒谎的事情。

Yeah. I mean, it's you know, what you said about the lying is really true. And this is what you see in serial killers, you know, that they lie about everything. Right. They they lie about stuff they don't even need to lie about.

这已经成为他们的生存方式。是的。他们完全习以为常，只想逍遥法外。

It's just it's their Serumo. Yeah. It's they're just so inured to it, and they wanna get away with what they're doing.

他们真该去企业界发展。为那些公司工作，他们可能真能逃脱惩罚。我是说，不知道有多少化工企业的员工，展现着与连环杀手完全相同的特质。

They should've went for corporate America. Should've worked worked for them, and they could've got away with it. They might have been fine. Never got caught. I mean, I just I wonder how many people who are working for these chemical corporations and how many how many exhibit the exact same traits as serial killers.

他们只是不想亲自动手杀人，但通过知道自己在为利润损害他人健康，获得某种变态的快感。

They just don't wanna get intimate and actually physically cause the murder but get some sort of a bizarre thrill out of knowing that they're doing this kind of damage to people for profit.

是的。这种心理变态可能比我们愿意承认的更普遍。

Yeah. I think that kind of psychopathy is maybe more common than we would like to think.

是啊。我们不愿去想这些。我们不愿思考反社会者，不愿思考精神病态和反社会人格。这两者有很多重叠之处。

Yeah. We don't wanna think about it. We don't wanna think about sociopaths. We don't wanna think about psychopaths and sociopaths and psychopaths. There's a lot of overlap.

我们不愿思考有多大比例的人表现出这种零共情的特质。确实存在很多这样的人。完全零共情。我就认识这类毫无同理心的人。

We don't wanna think about what percentage of us exhibit these traits where we have zero empathy. Right. And there's a lot of people like that. There's zero. But, I mean, I know people like that that have no empathy.

他们根本不在乎别人是否受伤。我无法理解，但我和他们的缺陷不同。我总在思考——这是先天因素？后天养育？还是环境毒素的影响？

They don't care if other people get hurt. And I don't understand it, but I don't have whatever is wrong with them. And I want I always wonder, like, is that nature? Is that nurture? Is are we dealing with environmental toxins?

是幼年时接触了某些物质吗？究竟是什么导致了这种情况？是

There's exposure to something at a young age? Like, what is it that causes that? Is it

我认为可能是脑损伤。要知道，接触铅和镉的孩子，他们的前额叶皮层会出现特定区域发育不全。你能观察到那些本应充满决策功能物质的区域存在缺损。就是大脑中控制行为和自制力的那部分。

Well, I think it can be brain damage. You know? I mean, the what happens to the frontal cortex of these kids who are exposed to to lead and cadmium is that certain parts of the brain fail to develop correctly. And so and you can see the the deficits, the little holes that are supposed to be full of something that helps you make good decisions. You know, the part of your brain that helps you control yourself and control your behavior.

这些孩子往往缺失这部分功能。研究显示男性受影响比女性更严重——前额叶神经损伤在男性中更显著，MRI扫描能清晰呈现。虽然具体原因尚未明确，但这已成为学术界重点研究的真实现象。

That's kind of missing in in some of these kids, and they have shown now that the effects are worse in men than they are in women. That the damage to the frontal cortex, the neurology is more marked in men, and they can see this on the MRI scans. And I think there's you know, I don't know that they know why that's happening, but it does seem to be, you know, a real effect that they're writing papers about.

男性前额叶发育确实更慢。所以年轻时特别蠢，而女性成熟得更早。20岁的女性可能比25岁男性成熟得多，学者认为这主要与额叶发育有关。

Well, it does take longer for men to develop their frontal cortex. That's why men are so stupid when they're young, and women are much more mature, younger. Like a, you know, a 20 year old woman is probably far more mature than a 25 year old man, and a lot of that they think has to do with the frontal lobe.

没错。这显然是重大发现。关键在于如何利用这个发现，以及最终能对存在这些问题的孩子提供什么帮助——那又是另一个课题了。

Yeah. I mean, it obviously is some, you know, incredibly important discovery, what they make of that and how it's all going to come out in the wash in terms of what can be done to help kids who have these issues. That, I think, is is another story.

最讽刺的是，化学物质暴露在人类历史上算是新现象。就在我们刚理解大脑发育机制的同时，却要面对人类集体对儿童大脑造成的化学污染。

It's just so twisted when you think about the fact that this is all a fairly new thing, like this chemical exposure. Chemical exposure and pollutant exposure is a fairly new thing in terms of, like, human history. You know, as we're gaining this understanding of how the human brain develops, which is also a fairly new thing, we're also dealing with this thing that we did collectively as a human race. This thing that we did where he introduced these insane chemicals into the brains of children. Yeah.

比如爱达荷州的情况——根本是明知故犯。精心算计的结果。

And and in this case, like in Idaho, knowingly Yeah. Calculated.

最令我震惊的是，几个世纪甚至更久以前，我们就知道这些东西有害。罗马人和希腊人早就知道铅会让人发疯，那些在铸造厂接触铅的工人明显出现了问题。砷的毒性更是自古皆知。

And one of the things that sort of blows my mind is that we've known for centuries, for eons, that these things are bad. You know? I mean, the Romans and the Greeks knew that led, caused people to go crazy. I mean, they had people who worked with lead in foundries and things then and they knew it was a problem. We've known that arsenic is a poison since forever.

但到了二十世纪，这些企业居然开始对瓦雄岛之类的社区宣称：砷根本不是问题，人体会自然排出。天啊。

And yet, you know, comes along the twentieth century and somehow these these corporations are telling communities, including the community on Vashon Island, You know? Oh, arsenic is really not a problem. You know? The the human body just excretes it naturally. Jeez.

他们提出了各种荒谬论点来为自己的行为辩护。

You know? All kinds of just crazy arguments were being put forward to to justify what they were doing.

有次体检发现我体内砷含量高得吓人。医生询问我的饮食习惯，我说经常吃沙丁鱼罐头。他立即警告说：立刻停止。当我说每晚吃三四罐时——

I found out at one point in time in my life that I had a a disturbing level of arsenic in my system. I went to get blood work done, and my doctor said, you have a concerning level of arsenic. And he started asking me about my diet, and I said, I eat a lot of sardines. He's like, stop doing that. I he goes, how much do you eat?

他直接说：绝对不能再吃了。因为沙丁鱼生活在海底，重金属沉积区。

Like three or four cans a night. He's like, don't do that. Wow. Because sardines spend their time in the bottom of the ocean. Right.

没错，我就是这样摄入了砷。停吃几个月后复查，指标就正常了。

Like, that's where all the heavy metals accumulate. Yeah. And I was getting arsenic from eating cans of sardines. I stopped eating the sardines. I waited, like, a few months and went back, got more blood work, and it's gone.

当时真的难以置信。

Wow. I was like, wow.

其实砷分两种。海鲜中的有机砷虽然毒性较低，但像虾、沙丁鱼吃多了还是会积累——

Yeah. I mean, the there actually are two kinds of arsenic. There's organic arsenic, which you can get from seafood. And if you're eating a lot of, you know, shrimp or sardines or or whatever, it can build up. And I think that that form of arsenic is is slight is less toxic and less of a problem.

当然不该摄入，就像你医生说的——

You don't want it. I mean, as your doctor

现在完全没事了。

It's all good.

说过，别别那么做，太疯狂了。对。但他们在塔科马冶炼厂生产的物质是无机砷，就是那种用来毒老鼠的东西。他们把它用作杀虫剂，在四十年代和五十年代大量使用，喷洒在苹果园、樱桃园和棉花田里。

Said, don't don't do that. It's crazy. Yeah. But the the stuff that they were producing at the smelter in in Tacoma was was what's called inorganic arsenic, And that's the stuff they used to poison rats. And they used it for insecticides and and very heavily at you know, during the forties and fifties, they were putting it all over apple orchards and cherry orchards and cotton crops.

所以那些地方后来都被砷污染了。华盛顿州现在有四片这样的污染羽流。最大的一片来自冶炼厂，污染了普吉特海湾约一千平方英里的区域。还有韦纳奇，位于华盛顿州东部，那里有很多苹果园，形成了另一片杀虫剂污染羽流。

So those places were then contaminated with arsenic. And Washington State now has four plumes of this pollution. The the big one was in Puget Sound from the smelter, which was like a thousand square miles of Puget Sound that was contaminated. But also Wenatchee, which is over in Eastern Washington where they have all these apple orchards, there's another plume pesticides and and insecticides.

呃。

Ugh.

还有几处。埃弗里特那边还有一片，那里有个所谓的‘砷厨房’。洛克菲勒家族曾在喀斯喀特山脉拥有矿场，他们在埃弗里特有个冶炼厂，后来被古根海姆家族买下，把砷厨房搬到了塔科马。但埃弗里特留下了所有这些污染，后来发现人们在那片曾经的砷厨房上建了房子和公寓，那些污染从未清理过。所以他们不得不买下那些房产进行修复。

And there's a couple more. There there's another plume up in Everett where there was a what they called an arsenic kitchen. The Rockefellers used to own mines up in the Cascade Mountains, and they had a smelter in Everett that was then bought by the Guggenheims, and they moved their arsenic kitchen to Tacoma. But it left all this pollution in Everett, and so they discovered, you know, all these people had built houses and condos and things on top of where the arsenic kitchen had been, which, you know, that stuff was never cleaned up. And so they had to, you know I think they had to buy those properties and remediate.

怎么

How do

对，‘修复’这个词。比如，怎么修复一块五英亩的土地，你打算在上面建一栋漂亮的房子，在瓦雄岛上？五英亩被毒害的土地，他们是怎么处理的？

yeah. This term remediation. Like, how does one remediate a piece of land, like a five acre plot of land that you plan on building a beautiful house on Vashon Island on? Like, how how do how do they do that? Well In five acres of ground that's poisoned.

对。在塔科马，污染最严重的地方，因为烟囱就在水边。烟囱在九十年代被炸掉了。是的，他们把烟囱炸毁了，

Yeah. In in Tacoma, what they did, that was where the worst of the pollution was because the smokestack was getting sitting right, you know, near the water. The smokestack was blown up in the nineties. And yeah. They They exploded the the smokestack,

是故意的吗？

which I'm On purpose?

对。他们在1986年关闭了工厂。

Yeah. They they, you know, they closed the plant in 1986.

哦，所以是受控爆破？

Oh, so it's debt controlled demolition?

是的。所以答案是肯定的。完全正确。

Yeah. So it was a yes. Exactly.

这也可能极大地导致了更多污染物的产生。

Which also probably contributed greatly to more pollutants.

他们声称清理了烟囱内部。

They claimed that they cleaned the inside of the smokestack.

在他们炸掉它之前？

Before they blew it up?

对。就在这边。是的。所以，在塔科马，他们运走了成吨的土壤。他们甚至，你知道的，进入了人们的院子里。

Yeah. Over here. Yeah. So, yeah, in Tacoma, they they carted away tons of soil. They took, you know, they went into people's yards.

他们对所有庭院进行了检测并告知居民，好吧，你们得更换土壤。于是，到了这个阶段，Asarco公司已宣告破产，最终环保署不得不接管整个清理工作。但环保署从Asarco获得了史无前例的环境破产和解金，接近20亿美元。据我所知，这是他们从企业获得的最大一笔和解金，但需用于清理约20个超级基金污染场地，包括爱达荷州科达伦的那处——他们已在那里持续工作多年，至今仍未完工。

They tested all of the yards and told people, okay. You're gonna have to replace the soil. And and so, yeah, they went in and they by this point, Asarco had declared bankruptcy and the EPA eventually had to take over the whole thing. But the EPA got an unprecedented environmental bankruptcy settlement out of the Sarco, which was close to $2,000,000,000. I think it was the highest settlement that they'd ever gotten from a corporation, but it had to clean up about 20 different Superfund sites, including the one in Idaho in Coeur D'Alene, which they've, you know, they've been working on that for years and still haven't finished.

但在塔科马市，他们确实为许多居民的庭院更换了土壤。不过资金终究耗尽了。比如在瓦雄这样的地方，南部大部分区域都是如此。某些区域的居民可以申请土壤更换，但根据居住地段，这并非绝对保障。

But in Tacoma, they actually did replace the soil in many, many people's yards. But, you know, they run out of money. I mean, I think on places like Vachon, a lot of that was on the Southern part. I think you could request soil replacement in some of these places, but it wasn't necessarily guaranteed depending on where you live.

这对生态系统破坏性太大了。你们这是在移除所有维系植物生存的要素——动物、菌丝体，以及连接这些植物的整个地下网络。你们把这一切都挖走，再填入新土。

Oh, that's also so destructive to the ecosystem. So you're taking out everything Yeah. That allows these plants to live, animals, mycelium, all all the different the network that connects all these plants together. You're pulling all that stuff out and introducing new soil. Yeah.

而且不可能全面实施。总会有残留，绝对做不到彻底清除。你们不可能处理整座岛屿，也不可能覆盖塔科马每一寸土地。

And you're not gonna do it everywhere. You're you're not gonna get all of it out. There's no way. You're not gonna be able to do the whole island. You're not gonna be able to do, like, every inch of Tacoma, all the land.

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没错。当然他们得处理那些受污染土壤。在塔科马市，他们将其运到特殊填埋场。但关闭烟囱后最荒诞的是——他们把我提到的那个含砷废料堆（原本在埃弗里特）连同冶炼厂建筑群污染最严重的部分，当初奥萨科公司承诺会全部运走。

Yeah. And, of course, they have to take that soil somewhere. So in Tacoma, they they took it to some special landfill. But, I mean, one of the really crazy things that happened as a result of closing the smokestack there was that they took that arsenic kitchen that I was talking about, the one that had been up in in Everett, and some of the most contaminated parts of the buildings that were part of the whole smelter compound. And the Osarco promised that they were gonna take all that stuff and put it somewhere else.

我不知道他们原计划运往何处。但他们承诺会处理。结果公司破产了，这些污染物就留在原地。最后他们挖了个怪异的深坑，把最危险的物质——包括埃弗里特的污染土壤和含砷废料堆——全塞进超级加厚的塑料衬垫垃圾袋（想象一下世界最大的垃圾袋）。

I don't know where they were gonna put it. But they said they were gonna take it. But then they went bankrupt, and so they didn't remove it. And instead, they created this very bizarre kind of pit with where they put all the worst stuff, including a bunch of the soil, the contaminated soil from Everett and the arsenic kitchen, and they put it in a sort of super heavy duty plastic lined, you know, garbage bag, essentially. I mean, if you can imagine, like, the largest garbage bag in the world.

所有污染物装袋后，他们覆土掩埋。如今冶炼厂建筑群原址虽已清理干净建起公寓楼，但公寓后方仍矗立着这个巨型土包——里面是装在塑料垃圾袋中的高危污染物。

They put all this stuff in it, and they capped it with soil. And that thing is sitting there, you know, still, even though they have now you know, they cleared off the whole area where the compound was, where the factories and the the furnaces were, and they built condos on top of that. Oh my god. But behind the condos is this giant hump of contaminated stuff in a giant plastic garbage bag.

他们会告知公寓住户这里埋着什么吗？

Do they tell the people that live in these condos what they're dealing with?

嗯，那里有一个非常小的历史展示区，里面有一些照片和关于冶炼厂的资料，就在通往公共卫生间途中的一栋建筑里。

Well, there's this there's a very small historical dis display with some photographs and and materials about the smelter that's in, you know, in one of the buildings on the way to the public bathroom.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以假设在那里买公寓的人对此有所了解的话，他们可能觉得这种工业遗迹很奇怪，但从某种意义上说，那里已经被清理过了。我是说，不过...

So presumably, if the people who are buying condos there know anything about it, they probably They probably think it's weird in industry, but they think it's and in a sense, it has been cleaned up. I mean, but

某种意义上。但是，它不会渗入地下水层吗？

In a sense. But, also, doesn't it leak into the water table?

他们做了很多处理措施。我在书里提到过，你知道《沙丘》的作者弗兰克·赫伯特吗？嗯。他来自塔科马市。

Well, they have a lot of stuff that they've done. I mean, in the in the book, I talk about, you know you know, Frank Herbert, who wrote Dune? Mhmm. He was from Tacoma. Oh.

事实上，《沙丘》中关于污染和星球生态恶化的描写，很多都源自他对这座冶炼厂的厌恶——一个彻底摧毁了自身环境的星球。如今他们在这片曾经的冶炼厂地块一端建了公寓，另一端则在这片矿渣地上开发了整个小公园。矿渣就是从矿石中提取金属后的残留物，冷却后看起来像砾石，但其实含有污染物。

And he in fact, the stuff in Dune about the pollution and what has happened to the planet, you know, that that he dramatized, a lot of that came from his disgust with the smelter. And and, you know, a planet that had basically destroyed its whole environment. And now they have, you know, developed this whole little park on one you know, the condos are on one end of this what used to be the smelter property and then on the other end on top of this slag land. The slag is the stuff that's left over after you've pulled all the metal out of the rocks. There's the stuff that once it's cooled off, looks like gravel, and it's called slag, but it isn't really gravel.

这些矿渣被砷等物质污染了。他们建了个叫'沙丘公园'的地方献给弗兰克·赫伯特，是条步行小道。整个设计像是用塑料衬垫包裹起来的，岸边也有塑料衬层防止污染物泄漏。住在那些公寓里的人不能种植超过小灌木高度的植物，部分原因就是这个塑料衬层。

I mean, it's contaminated with all the stuff. It's contaminated with arsenic. And and so they built a park that's called Dune Park, and it's dedicated to Frank Herbert. And it's this little walking trail, and the whole thing, I think, is developed in such a way that it's kinda lined with plastic, and there's a plastic liner, you know, on the shores to keep stuff from leaking out. And, like, if you live in one of those condos, you can't plant anything that will be larger than a, you know, small shrub in part because of the plastic liner thing.

我的天。

Oh my god.

是啊，挺疯狂的。

Yeah. It's it's wild.

太离谱了。哇。真让人不安。而且涉及这么多复杂因素对吧？

That's so crazy. Woah. It's so disturbing. And then there's so many factors too. Right?

一方面是植物，另一方面是工业杀虫剂。你读过《消解的幻象》吗？苏珊娜·汉弗莱斯在这本书中写到了DDT及其无处不在的使用，以及农村社区许多人如何患上带引号的‘脊髓灰质炎’。嗯哼。这种麻痹性脊髓灰质炎与DDT的使用直接相关。

There's the plants, and then there's the industrial pesticides. Have you ever read Dissolving Illusions? Suzanne Humphreys wrote this book about and one of the aspects of the book is about DDT and the ubiquitous use of DDT and how so many people in rural communities were coming down with, in air quotes, polio. Uh-huh. Paralytic polio that was directly correlated to the use of DDT.

就像，同样的地区，不仅是人类，还有牛、马和狗也在患上这种‘脊髓灰质炎’。它们也出现了瘫痪症状，而这是不会跨物种传播的。人类脊髓灰质炎不会跨物种传播。这是个非常黑暗的故事。你想听点更疯狂的吗？

Like, the same areas where people and it wasn't just human beings that were getting this polio, but it was also cows horses, and dogs. They were getting paralyzed as well, which it doesn't cross species. Human derived polio does not cross species. It's a very dark story. And you you wanna hear something crazy?

你认为无症状的脊髓灰质炎比例是多少？

What percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic?

我从没听说过脊髓灰质炎还有无症状的。

I've never heard that there's polio that's asymptomatic.

95%到99%。真正的脊髓灰质炎中，95%到99%是无症状的。所以他们所谓的脊髓灰质炎很可能是DDT中毒。哇。这东西当时到处喷洒，为了对付舞毒蛾等各种害虫。

Ninety five to ninety nine percent. Ninety five to ninety nine percent of actual polio is asymptomatic. So what they were calling polio was most likely DDT poisoning Wow. That was sprayed everywhere. That was sprayed everywhere for gypsy moths and all all sorts of different pests.

他们只是不知道。等他们知道时已经太晚了，于是试图掩盖，说‘不，我们治愈了脊髓灰质炎。看，我们治愈了它’。

They just they didn't know. And then once they did know, it was too late, and they were just trying to cover it up and say, no. We we cured polio. We cured it. Look.

那些患上带引号‘脊髓灰质炎’的人，很可能就是DDT中毒。

And these people that were, you know, getting air quotes polio were most likely getting poisoned by DDT.

是啊。我觉得很多这类环境问题对人们来说已经变得太沉重，以至于他们选择屏蔽。是的。就像，我们能怎么办呢？对吧。

Yeah. I think that the you know, a lot of this environmental stuff has become so overwhelming to people that they kind of tune it out. Yes. It's like, what are we gonna do about it? Right.

我们无能为力。所以，对吧，干脆假装没发生。

There's nothing we can do. So, like Right. Let's just pretend it's not happening.

我确保自己不在深夜读这些东西。嗯。你知道，当我晚上读这些时，我睡不着。我会抓狂。人类这种明知或不知情地做出这种事，然后明知故犯地掩盖，再试图通过清除它或治疗这些人的病痛来牟利，同时混淆视听，转移注意力，比如称之为疾病或其他什么，这让我非常不安。

I make sure that I don't read any of this stuff late at night. Yeah. You know, when I when I read stuff like this, read it late at night, I can't go to sleep. I just I freak out. I just it just disturbs me, human beings, their capacity to do things like this either knowingly or unknowingly, and then to cover it up knowingly, and then to try to find some way to profit off of the removal of it or the treatment of these ailments that these people suffer and then the obfuscating and the, you know, diverting the attention to some other thing, like calling it a disease or calling it something else.

是的。我的意思是，当我想要展开关于连环杀手、暴力、攻击性及其潜在根源的讨论时，这正是我脑海中的考量之一。我不想仅仅把它当作引入污染议题的特洛伊木马，但我确实认为这或许能让那些原本不愿思考这些问题的人开始关注。你知道吗？人们对自己可能如何暴露于这些历史影响很感兴趣。

Yeah. I mean, that was one of the things in my mind when I kind of wanted to develop the whole thing about, you know, put talking about serial killers and violence and aggression and where that might have come from because I, you know, I wanted to talk about all that, and I didn't wanna just use it as a kind of Trojan horse to introduce all the stuff about pollution. But I did think it was a way to get people maybe to think about these issues who might not otherwise wanna do that. Know? Who who and I think people are interested in the history of how they might have been, you know, exposed.

大约一个月前我在西雅图做读书会时，所有人都在讨论他们成长的地方与冶炼厂的相对位置——距离有多近，可能因此经历过什么。塔科马故事最耐人寻味的一点在于：许多穷人直接暴露在污染中——冶炼厂工人就住在烟囱旁边，承受着最严重的危害。但该地区还有其他社区，包括我长大的默瑟岛，如今那里以富裕闻名，微软高管在此置业，保罗·艾伦也曾居住于此。而我童年时，那里已是优渥的上中产阶级社区。

When I when I did a a reading up in Seattle a month or so ago, you know, everybody was talking about where they grew up in relation to the smelter, like how close they were to it and, you know, what they might have experienced as a result. And that, I think, is one of the interesting things about the Tacoma story is that many poor people were directly ex you know, the people who worked at the smelter, they lived right around the smokestack. So they got the worst of it. But there were a lot of other communities in the area, including Mercer Island where I grew up, which is now kind of a famously wealthy you know, some of the, you know, Microsoft people have houses there or I think Paul Allen had house there. And it was when I was a kid growing up there, it was a well-to-do upper middle class place.

书中我探讨了当时岛上发生的几起离奇罪案——这些是否与某些污染存在关联？我们讨论的是含铅汽油导致空气中铅含量上升，因为90号州际公路横穿默瑟岛，这条从喀斯喀特山脉延伸而来的公路经华盛顿湖中心的岛屿直抵西雅图。默瑟岛不仅承受着I-90的污染，还处在塔科马冶炼厂的烟羽范围内。而我成长期间，确实发生过些诡异事件。

And one of the things I look at in the book is some of the really bizarre crime that happened on the island at that time that you wonder, was this, you know, in any way related to, you know, some of these things? We're talking about the rise in lead in the air from from leaded gas because Mercer Island is crossed by I 90. I-ninety comes down out of the Cascades crosses Mercer Island, which is sitting in the middle of Lake Washington and ends up in Seattle. And so Mercer Island had a lot of pollution from I 90, and it also was in the plume from the Tacoma smelter. And while I was growing up there, some weird shit happened.

比如什么事件？

Like, what kind of shit?

我住的街道靠近I-90公路，实际位于公路隧道的正上方。同一条街上长大的乔治·沃特菲尔德·罗素，后来成了连环杀手——九十年代他在东区贝尔维尤杀害了三名女性。这相当触目惊心，毕竟你很难想象这种社区会孕育连环杀手。

Well, I lived on a street that was close to I 90 and was actually it kinda ran over the top of a tunnel that enclosed I 90 on part of the island. And down the street from where I grew up was growing up another young guy named George Waterfield Russell who turned out to be a serial killer. And in the nineteen nineties, killed three women on the East Side where Bellevue is. And so that is really kind of a striking fact. You know, you don't expect serial killers to come from that kind of a neighborhood.

离罗素家不远处——他也就读于我的高中——还有个纵火犯，他烧毁父母仓库导致多名西雅图消防员丧生，成为本地史上最恶劣纵火案之一。我高中同学里还有个痴迷前女友的男生，从工作场所偷取炸药炸毁她的宿舍楼。初中时还有个抑郁少年偷开女友姐姐的科迈罗，以百万英里时速撞向初中体育馆。

Not very far away from where Russell grew up. This other guy was also, who went to my high school, as did Russell, was growing up who became one of the worst arsonists in Seattle history when he burned down his parents' warehouse and killed several Seattle firefighters. So there were those two. There was a guy in my class at the high school who was obsessed with his ex girlfriend and went he he worked at a facility that used dynamite, and he stole some dynamite and blasting caps, and he went and blew up her dorm building. And there was another kid who went to my junior high who decided he was so depressed he was gonna kill himself, and he drove his car at, like, a 100 miles an hour.

所有这些都集中发生在你意想不到会出这种罪案的时间与地点。

It actually wasn't his car. It was, like, his girlfriend's sister's Camaro or something. And he drove it, you know, at a million miles an hour into the wall of the junior high gymnasium and destroyed the gymnasium. So all this stuff is happening, you know, in a in a period of time, you know, and in a place that you wouldn't think would have that level of crime.

而且是这类罪案。

And that kind of crime.

而且是这类罪案。

And that kind of crime.

奇怪的是肇事者全是男性——这些毒素对他们影响尤为显著。但当地女性呢？是否存在你认为可能归因于这些毒素的异常行为？

And oddly enough, all always men Yeah. Which are uniquely affected by these things. But what so what about the women that were there? Was there was there bizarre behavior that you might think could be attributed to these toxins?

你知道，我真的不知道该如何回答这个问题。我是说，我记得关于高中的一件事，比如，那里有很多令人毛骨悚然的行为，像是食物大战之类的，很多现在可能不太常见的事情。这完全是我的个人感受，无法证实。但我觉得我侄子和侄女在九十年代成长时，似乎比我们七十年代那会儿少些烦恼。

You know, I don't really know how to answer that. I mean, I think that there was one of the things that I remember about the high school, for example, was, you know, that they there was a lot of kind of creepy behavior, you know, going on in terms of food fights and just a lot of stuff you I don't think you see as much now. I mean, I this is completely anecdotal, so I can't support any of this. But it just it felt to me like when my niece and nephew were growing up that that they were less troubled as youth, you know, than we were in the nineteen seventies. You know, they were growing up in the nineties.

你懂吗？我觉得确实有那么一点道理。虽然无法证明，但那些关于婴儿潮一代因铅暴露而疯狂的玩笑话，可能还真有几分真实性。

You know? And and I think there is a little bit of that. I mean, there there can't prove it, but I think that it may be true that, you know, the whole all the jokes about the baby boomers being crazy because of lead exposure. There may be a little bit of truth to that.

我是说，这很合理。如果铅和其他毒素水平都升高了，而我们知道这些会影响人类行为，那这完全说得通。

I mean, it makes sense. If it I mean, it totally makes sense. I mean, if there were elevated levels of all this lead, elevated levels of all these toxins, and we know that it affects human behavior, I mean, it only makes sense.

确实如此。我希望我的书能鼓励人们思考这个问题。现在很多人对铅更了解了。比如你之前提到的邦克山事件，他们说血铅水平从5微克/分升降到了3.5，但其实应该为零——因为任何铅暴露都不安全，这是公认的。

It it does. And and I, you know, I hope that one of the things my book might be able to do is to encourage people to just think about this in their, you know, in their lives. And I think a lot of people are now much more aware of lead. I mean, that thing that you were showing earlier about the Bunker Hill thing, it said that five micrograms per deciliter of lead was the they've now lowered that to three point five. And and it really should be zero, you know, because there is no amount of lead that's safe in terms of exposure, and they know that.

如果联邦政府直接宣布标准为零，就会引发一系列连锁反应，让家长恐慌——带孩子检测发现铅含量不是零怎么办？然后我们该怎么处理？这很棘手...

I think it just if the federal government comes out and says it's zero, then that triggers all kinds of things that have to happen, and it makes parents freak out because, you know, they might take their child to a doctor and have them tested and find out there's some you know, if it's not zero, then what are we what are we gonna do about it? And it's, you know

责任归谁？没错。最令人不安的是，相关企业会竭力扭曲事实、隐藏证据，把大事化小，假装这根本不是问题。

And who's liable? That's right. Yeah. That's what's so disturbing about all this stuff is that a lot of effort is put forth to make sure that whatever companies that may be liable, they they'll try to distort facts and try to hide evidence and try to make it seem like this is just a this is a nothing burger. This is no big deal.

氟化物就是例子。我们长期往水里加氟说是防蛀牙，但现在发现高氟水与智商下降直接相关。可还有人坚持要加氟，说什么不然蛀牙会泛滥。

But you see that with fluoride. You know, we've been putting fluoride in the water forever supposedly to help people with tooth decay. And then you're seeing that there's a direct correlation between high levels of fluoride in the water and lowered IQs. And yet there's still people out there that are saying, oh, we need we we you're gonna have to see a bunch of tooth decay. We need to put the fluoride back in the water.

必须停止这种行为！为什么？因为有人在靠加氟获利。那些提供氟化物的大公司，打着改善口腔健康的幌子——这太荒谬了，根本不需要这样。

We need to stop this. Why? Well, because people are profiting off of putting fluoride in water. There's enormous corporations that are responsible for that fluoride, and they provide that fluoride to the drinking water. And under the guise of improving dental health, which is just crazy because you don't need it.

你只要好好刷牙，别他妈吃那么多糖就行了——糖才是罪魁祸首，百分之百的元凶。看看古代人的头骨和牙齿，几百年前哪有这么多蛀牙？因为那时人们不吃这么多腐蚀牙齿的糖果。

Like, you could just brush your teeth and stop eating so much fucking sugar, which is really the culprit. That's really 100% the culprit. I mean, if you go back to ancient times, one of the things they've seen that they find, like, skulls and dead people's teeth from, you know, hundreds of years ago. You don't you don't find a massive amount of tooth decay because people weren't eating a lot of sugar. They weren't constantly eating candy and stuff that rots your fucking teeth out.

我们不需要往水里加这种神经毒素，需要的是停止摄入毒物。这很简单：不能靠添加一种毒物来抵消另一种毒物的危害。

It's we don't need to stop. We don't need to put this neurotoxin into water. We need to stop eating poison. It's, like, really simple. You don't add a poison to make you better because there's more poison.

这真的很疯狂，这些都是铁一般的事实，无可否认。比如，如果你看看氟化物与智商下降之间的关联，这几乎是无法辩驳的。他们知道这是事实。

Like, it's really crazy. And these are, like, hardcore facts. This is not something that's deniable. Like, if you look at the correlation between fluoride and and lowered IQs, it's pretty undeniable. They know it's a fact.

他们知道它是一种神经毒素。但他们却轻描淡写地说，哦，那只是在剂量高或低的情况下。那么，是谁在决定剂量标准？谁在决定？

They know it's a neurotoxin. But yet they'll brush it off. Oh, but that's in high doses and low doses. Like, well, who's determining? Who's determining?

人类在饮用水中使用氟化物的历史并不长，相对较近。我记得可以追溯到二十世纪初。这太疯狂了。

There there there hasn't been a long history of human use of fluoride in drinking water. It's fairly recent. It's I believe it goes back into the early twentieth century. It's crazy.

是的。嗯，我是说，他们总是说剂量决定毒性，我想这确实有一定道理。

Yeah. Well, it is I mean, they always say the dose makes the poison, and I suppose that that that's true.

哦，我当然相信这是真的，但我的意思是，零剂量才是对你无害的，而这不是人们应该做的明智之举。这就是为什么他们告诉你不要吞食含氟牙膏，要吐出来。为什么？因为里面含有氟化物，氟化物对你他妈的不好。

Oh, I'm so sure it's true, but I mean, it's zero amount is good for you, and this is not a smart thing for people to do. It's why you're not supposed to eat toothpaste that has fluoride in it. They tell you to spit it out. Why? Because it's got fluoride in it, fluoride is fucking bad for you.

对吧。那我们一开始为什么要把氟化物加进牙膏里？帮我理解一下。你只是想清洁牙齿，对吧？

Right. So why are we putting it in toothpaste in the first place? Like, help me out. You're just trying to clean teeth. Right?

为什么非得用氟化物？其实不必。这就是为什么市面上有无氟牙膏，并且他们明确标注。如果氟化物真的能帮助所有人预防蛀牙，那为什么还有人想买无氟牙膏？因为那些真正关注并阅读独立记者报道、跳出主流叙事的人意识到，这东西对你没好处。

Like, why do you have to use fluoride? Well, you don't. That's why they sell fluoride free toothpaste, and they advertise it as such. If fluoride was a thing that was helping everyone with tooth decay, why the hell would anybody wanna buy fluoride free toothpaste? Well, because people who have been actually paying attention and reading independent journalists and reading people that have gone outside the mainstream narrative that realize, like, this is not good for you.

它不仅对你没好处，可能早就该从我们的供水系统中去除了。那么谁该负责？这就牵扯到那些向水中排放氟化物或为其使用辩护的公司，还有那些推动此事的政客。谁在收钱？

Not only is it not good for you, it probably should have been removed from our water supply a long time ago. So who's responsible? And then it gets into that. It gets into, like, these corporations that have been dumping Florida into water or justifying the use of Florida, the politicians that have been doing it. Who's been getting paid?

资金流向如何？到底发生了什么？这不过是人类堕落的又一令人作呕且不安的证据，表明人们明知某些事有害却仍愿意去做，

What's the paper trail? Like, what's going on? And it's just one more piece of disgusting and disturbing evidence of human depravity that people are willing to do things that are just they know are bad,

但他们从中获利。而且他们

but they profit. And and they

本期节目由LifeLock赞助播出。我猜你最近几个月肯定去过诊所，肯定交过保险、身份证件甚至社保号码等个人信息。但你可能没想过，诊所只是众多掌握你个人信息的机构之一。只要其中任何一家机构疏忽大意，就很可能让你的资料落入黑客之手，导致身份盗窃风险。

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. I bet you've probably been to the doctor's office in the past few months. I bet you had to hand over your personal info like your insurance, your ID, maybe even your Social Security number. And I bet you weren't thinking about how your doctor is just one of many places that has your personal information. If any one of them isn't careful, it's a good bet they could accidentally expose your details to hackers and identity theft, putting you at risk.

这些地方你又避不开——看病看牙都得去，连雇主那里都存着你的个人信息。好在LifeLock每秒监控数亿数据点防范身份威胁。若身份被盗，美国本土的修复专家将负责解决，否则全额退款。

It's not like you can avoid all these places either. Sometimes you have to go to the doctor, the dentist. Hell, even your employer has your personal info on file. Fortunately, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it guaranteed or your money back.

另有最高300万美元的被盗资金赔付方案。别拿个人信息冒险，即便不在你掌控时也要做好防护。首年最高享40%优惠，拨打1-800并输入优惠码JRE，或访问lifelock.com/jre立享6折。

There's also plans covering up to $3,000,000 for stolen funds and expenses. Don't take chances with your personal info. Help protect it even when it's out of your hands. Save up to 40% your first year. Call +1 800 and use the promo code JRE or go to lifelock.com/jre for 40% off.

LifeLock为您防范不可控的威胁。条款适用。本期节目亦由Takova's赞助。糟糕的靴子毁所有，所以你需要Tecovas。

LifeLock for the threats you can't control. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Takova's. You can't have a good time in bad boots. That's why you need Tecovas.

Tecovas为所有人精制优质西部靴——无论世代牧场主、资深牛仔还是首次购靴者。每双靴子经过200多道工序手工打造，开箱即享磨合舒适感。品质与风格从不妥协。不止靴子，D'Kovis还提供丰富男女装、箱包及精品皮具。

Tecovas crafts quality western boots for everyone. From generational ranchers and lifelong cowboys to first time boot buyers, each boot is handcrafted with over 200 meticulous steps for broken in comfort right out of the box. There's no compromise between quality and style. And it's not just boots. D'Kovis offers a wide selection of men's and women's apparel, bags, and fine leather goods.

甚至还有懒人鞋和凉拖——虽非靴款，西部风情不减。现在注册邮件短信即享官网t e c o v a s.com/rogan九折优惠，详情参见网站。

They even have slip ons and sandals. They aren't boots, but they still bring the western flair. Right now, get 10% off at takova's.com/rogan when you sign up for email and text. That's 10% off at t e c o v a s dot com slash Rogan. See site for details.

Takovas，让脚尖指向西部。

Takovas, point your toes west.

要知道赫尔曼在这件事上也不是完全无辜。比如铅污染问题，我认为公立学校是最令人担忧的场所之一。这些校舍多是几十年前建造的老建筑，管道系统陈旧，用的是含铅水管。

Herman is not, you know, completely blameless in all of this either because, you know, in terms of of lead, for example, one of the places that I think people are really concerned about is the schools, you know, public schools. Public school buildings were built, you know, often decades ago. So they're old, and they have old plumbing. They have lead pipes.

含铅涂料。

Lead paint.

含铅涂料。

Lead paint.