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乔·罗根播客。快来看看。《乔·罗根体验》。展示我的一天。白天黑夜都在听乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Showing my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
加勒特，很高兴认识你，先生。
Garrett, very nice to meet you, sir.
我也很高兴认识你。
Nice to meet you as well.
非常感谢你参与这次访谈。请告诉大家你的职业。你的正式职位是什么？你是斯坦福大学医学院的教授。
For doing this. I really appreciate it. Tell everybody what you do. Tell everybody what your official position is. You you're a professor at the School of Medicine at Stanford.
你具体从事什么工作？
What what do you do?
我的日常工作主要是癌症研究和癌症生物学，尤其是免疫学与癌症领域。我的实验室主要工作并非研究癌症生物学本身，而是开发能生成数据的仪器，帮助我们分析免疫系统如何与肿瘤相互作用，以及肿瘤如何重新利用免疫系统来助长自身。问题在于，我们过去缺乏足够的数据收集能力——直到最近才有所突破——来全面理解这些机制。因此几十年来我们就像在黑暗中摸索。过去二十年里，我开发了多款仪器并创立公司，让所有人都能获取以往无法获得的信息层级。
So my day job is in cancer research and cancer biology, mostly immunology and cancer. Much of what my laboratory does is not so much the biology of cancer, but developing instruments that create the data that allow us to analyze the complexities of how the immune system interfaces with tumors and how tumors basically re enable the immune system to help the cancer itself. So the problem has been we don't have the ability to collect enough data or not until recently to collect and understand what all of that means. So we've been kind of poking in the dark for decades. And so probably for the last twenty years, I've developed a number of instruments and turned them into companies that allow everybody to access a level of information they couldn't get before.
请详细解释一下，免疫系统是如何允许肿瘤...
So explain that. The the immune system allows the tumors
这个过程就像一场舞蹈：最初引发肿瘤的突变与肿瘤后续的进化之间存在着互动。肿瘤最终会学会欺骗免疫系统不被识别。事实上，每个人体内每天都会产生五个类似癌变的细胞，但免疫系统能迅速清除它们。然而经过足够长时间和足够多变异后，肿瘤会进化出不仅逃避免疫识别，甚至能驱使免疫系统为它们创造炎症环境的能力——这种环境反而促进肿瘤细胞分裂和转移。
So what happens is that there's sort of a there's a dance between the mutations that initiate a tumor and then sort of an evolution of how the tumor eventually learns how to trick the immune system to not recognize it. So we have all kinds of inter I mean, literally every day, every person, you'll develop five cancer like objects inside of your body. But the immune system and your body has a way of shutting it down very quickly. But with enough time and with enough variation, tumors will eventually evolve in a way that trick the immune system not only into not recognize them, but in fact, to help them and feed them in a way to create an inflammatory environment that actually then the tumor uses to propagate its own cell division and then metastasis.
所以产生肿瘤是人类生物学的正常功能？
So it's a normal function of natural human biology to create tumors?
这不算正常功能，而是进化的副产品。当基因突变（比如细胞分裂时），或长期暴露在阳光下（电离辐射会改变DNA引发突变），某些随机突变就会诱发癌症。例如我天生携带MIDFE3 18k突变——家族中首次出现——这个突变导致我同时患过黑色素瘤和肾癌。
It's not so much a normal function. It's a byproduct of what evolution is, that when the genes mutate when a cell divides or if you go out and, you know, stand in the in the sun too much, for instance, you get skin cancers because you're getting ionizing radiation that's changing the DNA, making a mutation, and some of those random mutations will initiate a cancer. So for instance, I have a mutation called MIDFE three one eight k. It's a mutation that I was born with. It didn't it wasn't in my family, and it causes both melanoma and kidney cancer, which I've had both.
仅黑色素瘤我就得过十几次。你知道，我们直到几年前才发现这一点，但多年来我一直在关注它，我们基本上已经确定，好吧，只能这样了。所以我们为我的基因组做了测序。但这只是数百种可能导致癌症的突变中的一种。
I've had a dozen melanomas alone. You know, we didn't find that out until a couple of years ago, but I've been following it over the years, and we basically figured out, okay. It's gonna have to be this. So we had my c my genome sequenced. But there's that's just one of hundreds of different kinds of mutations that can occur that are on a path towards creating a cancer.
但如果免疫系统能识别癌症，癌症就无法存活。最终，免疫系统与癌症之间会达成一种平衡，免疫系统基本上会忽略癌症。2018年，休斯顿的吉姆·艾利森因发现免疫系统的一种关闭信号而获得诺贝尔奖，癌症利用这种信号关闭免疫系统。通过证明可以阻断这一信号，他的妻子帕姆·夏尔马在MD安德森癌症中心进行了一系列临床试验，结果显示，这实际上可以将黑色素瘤的5%生存率提高到50%。这开创了如今全球都在利用的免疫疗法领域。
But the cancer can't survive if the immune system recognizes it. So eventually, what happens is there's this detente that is reached between the immune system and the cancer where the immune system basically ignores the cancer. So Jim Allison here in Houston won the Nobel Prize back in 2018 for understanding one of these turn off signals that the immune system you that the cancer is used to turn off the immune system and that by showing he could block it, his wife, Pam Sharma, ran a bunch of clinical trials at MD Anderson that showed, in fact, that this could actually turn a five percent survival disease in melanoma to a fifty percent survival. And that then created the whole immunotherapy field that the world is taking advantage of today.
哇。那么癌症到底在做什么？肿瘤是如何发展出欺骗免疫系统的能力的？其他动物也有这种情况吗？哦，是的。
Wow. So so what is what is cancer actually doing? Like, how how did it how do tumors develop this ability to trick the immune system? Is this something that other animals have? Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。所以这是一场持续的
Oh, yeah. So it's a constant
这是一场持续的战斗。举个例子，你的细胞表面有蛋白质，我们不会深入免疫学细节，它们被称为主要组织相容性复合体蛋白。如果我随便把我的组织移植给你，很可能会被排斥，就是因为这些MHC蛋白。你的细胞正在向免疫系统展示你的内部细胞生物学，它在说，好吧。
it's a constant battle. So so so for instance, there there are proteins on your cell surface, and we'll get too immunologically deep about it. They're called major histocompatibility complex proteins. So for instance, if I were to try to just randomly do a a tissue transplant from me to you, it's very likely that it would be rejected, and it's because of those MHC proteins that it's rejected. What's happening is that your cells are presenting your internal cell biology to the immune system, and it's saying, okay.
你是朋友，不是敌人。所以当癌症刚开始时，会发生一些破坏，蛋白质会错误地形成等等。在某些情况下，这些MHC蛋白正在向身体展示内部损伤，身体会说，哦，这个细胞有问题。我们最好消灭它。我们杀死它。
You're you're a friend, not a foe. So when cancer usually initiates, there are disruptions that happen and proteins are made incorrectly, etcetera. And so what these MHC proteins are doing in some cases is they're presenting the internal damage to the body, and the body is saying, oh, there's something wrong with this cell. We better wipe it out. We kill it.
这些相同的蛋白质是免疫系统用来攻击病毒的。当你感染病毒时，身体有一种方式将细胞内的蛋白质分解，通过MHC展示，然后免疫系统攻击它。肿瘤最早做的事情之一就是学会关闭自己内部的MHC蛋白。所以展示受损的能力被关闭了。免疫系统不会因此全面警戒。
These same proteins are what the immune system uses, for instance, to go after viruses. So when you get a virus infection inside of the cell, the body has a way of chopping those proteins up inside of the cell, presenting it via MHC, and then the immune system attacks it. So what one of the first things that actually tumors do is they learn to turn off the MHC proteins inside of themselves. So the ability to show that I'm damaged is shut down. And so the immune system doesn't go on full alert for that.
但还有其他突变，比如在不该分裂的时候分裂，避免这种被称为凋亡的诱导性细胞死亡等等。所以癌症不是突然出现，第二天你就得了。它是一个渐进的过程。你有这些癌前病变。你有良性肿瘤，最终变成转移性肿瘤。
But then there are other mutations like divide when you're not supposed to, you know, avoid this kind of induced cell death called apoptosis and not others. And so it cancer doesn't just like start and then the next day you've got it. It's a progression of events. You have these precancerous lesions. You have, like, a benign tumor, which eventually becomes a metastatic tumor.
所以免疫系统在癌症发展的每个阶段都至关重要，因为如果你能以正确的方式重新激活免疫系统，你基本上可以阻止癌症扩散或转移，或者杀死你。
And and so the but the immune system is key at every stage of the development because if you can reactivate the immune system in just the right way, then you can prevent the cancer from basically spreading or from metastasizing or from killing you, essentially.
基于这种理解，是否有潜力将其用于器官移植患者，让局部不再将其识别为外来物
Is there a potential for given the understanding of this, is there a potential for using this for organ transplant patients where locally would stop recognizing this as a foreign
这正是目前实际采取的做法。事实上，当你接受组织或器官移植时，就是在抑制免疫系统。这种抑制的问题在于，你会因此将自己置于风险之中。
That's exactly what that's exactly what is done. In fact, you when you get a tissue transplant or an organ transplant, you're suppressing the immune system. The problem with that suppression is that you then put yourself at risk
没错。
Right.
患癌的风险，因为你所做的实际上是关闭了免疫系统在癌症形成时对抗它的能力。所以大多数接受免疫抑制治疗的人，既面临病毒感染、细菌感染的风险，也面临癌症风险。
Of cancer because what you're doing is you're turning off the immune system's ability to to combat and go after a cancer the moment it forms. So most people who are under immune suppression are at risk both of, let's say, virus infections, bacterial infections, but also for their cancers.
那么潜在方案是否可以实现局部关闭，比如只针对这个特定器官关闭免疫抑制？
So would the the potential be to turn that off locally so you could turn that off to this on this specific organ?
如果能做到那将非常理想。目前我们只有全身性免疫抑制剂。比如，如果能定向向移植器官递送抗免疫...也就是局部免疫抑制剂就太好了。虽然目前尚未实现，但未来可能通过某种基因疗法达成。
That would be a great thing to do if we could. Right now, the only things that we have are systemic. So yeah. I mean, for instance, if you could deliver to the organ that you're transplanting anti immuno you know, basically immunosuppressives locally, that would be great. We don't have that yet, but that would be via a form of gene therapy.
但问题在于，假设是肺移植。如果肺部发生感染，后果会是灾难性的吧？
But the problem would that be that if you like, let's say you had a a lung transplant. If you had a lung infection, it would be catastrophic.
要不要来我的实验室工作？你被斯坦福大学病理学系录取为研究生了。
You wanna come work in my lab? You're you're you're you're accepted as a graduate student in the Stanford department of pathology.
哇，这么容易。确实我有几位朋友接受过器官移植。知道他们因为必须服用这些抗排斥药物而对任何感染都极度脆弱，这非常令人不安。
Well, that was easy. Yeah. I have a few friends that have had organ transplants. Yeah. This is and it's, you know, it's very disturbing knowing that they're so vulnerable to any kind of infection because of these medications that they have to take in order for the body to accept the transplant.
其中一个难题是免疫细胞实际上有数百种不同类型。直到最近——确切地说直到我们实验室十几年前开发出一项技术前，我们无法在一张图谱中同时观察所有免疫细胞类型。我在斯坦福读研时来自伦农·李·赫岑伯格的实验室，他们发明了荧光激活细胞分选仪。这让你能同时观察三种蛋白质，如果提前知道哪些细胞类型表达你感兴趣的蛋白质，就能研究那三种细胞。后来我想出了能同时检测50到60种蛋白质的方法，算是对他们教我的技术进行了升级。
One of the problems is that there are literally hundreds of different types of immune cells. And, you know, really until recently and frankly until a technology my lab developed about over a dozen years ago, we couldn't look at all of the immune cell types all at once in a single picture. So I came from a laboratory, Lennon Lee Herzenberg, when I was a grad student at Stanford, and they had developed an instrument called the fluorescence activated cell sorter. And that allowed you to look at three proteins at a time, and if you could know ahead of time what the cell types were that expressed the proteins that you're interested in, you could look at just those three cell types. Then I came up with a way to look at, you know, 50 or 60 proteins at a time, sort of stepping up what they had already taught me how to do.
突然间这让我们几乎能观察体内所有细胞类型和免疫细胞类型。由此我们获得了构建数学模型的原始数据，从而能更准确地预测治疗效果。
And then suddenly, that gave us the ability to look at nearly every cell type in the in the body, and immune cell types. And then that gave us the, let's say, the raw data to build math mathematical models that we could do better predictions of what outcomes would be.
那么具体是怎样的呢？你在现实场景中是如何应用的？你是如何运用这些的？
And how is that like, how are you what are you applying in terms of, like, real world scenarios? How are you applying this?
举个例子，有一种叫做急性髓系白血病（AML）的白血病。它始于骨髓，是髓系细胞的一种变异形态。它最初是干细胞，然后这个干细胞会分化出多种不同的路径。根据个体差异，疾病的发展路径也会有所不同，最终形成白血病本身。只有通过足够多的标记物，我们才能追踪每个人在路径上的变化，从而了解这种转移性淋巴白血病的形成过程。
Well, so for instance, there's a kind of leukemia called AML, acute myelogenous leukemia. It starts in the bone marrow, and it is a distorted version of a myeloid cell type. It starts as a as a stem cell, and that stem cell goes down a number of different paths. And depending upon the person, the disease is sufficiently different that it might follow a slightly different path towards what becomes the disease itself. And so being able to trace the path and to know which steps along the way that it takes to become what becomes then the metastatic lymph leukemia could only be accomplished by having enough markers that allowed us to trace everybody along the path.
这有点像如果我想追踪你从卵子发育到今天的过程，每个月都有快照，我需要不同的标记物来测量你作为卵子、婴儿和成人的不同阶段。在我的研究中，这些不同的标记物就是不同的蛋白质，它们能告诉我成人白血病和婴儿白血病的区别。然后我们使用一种叫做‘伪时间’的数学概念，将这些快照拼接起来。就像我可以从一堆你从卵子到现在的随机照片中，手工拼出最可能的发展路径。但我们需要数据，也需要收集这些信息的手段和工具，这样数学方法才能发挥作用。
It's kinda like if I wanted to follow you from who you are as an egg through development through to who you are today and I had snapshots every month, I need different markers to measure what you are as an egg versus what you are as a baby versus what you are as an adult. And so each of those different markers in my world would be different proteins that tell me something about an adult leukemia versus a baby leukemia. And then we use something called pseudo time, which is a mathematical concept that allows us to stitch together those photographs. I could take a random box of photos of you from an egg to who you are today, and I could just by hand put together the most likely path and sequence of what you were from the earliest to the latest. But we needed the data, and we needed the means and the instruments to collect that information so that then the math could come to play.
人类最迷人的地方就是生物多样性——我们如此相似，比如都有两片肺、一颗心脏，但我们的身体对事物的反应、遭遇的环境因素、饮食、压力等等又如此不同。而你正在拼凑这个复杂的拼图。
That's such a fascinating thing about human beings is the biological variability, is that everybody is we're so the same. Mhmm. Two lungs, a heart, but so different in how our body reacts to things and what what happens to us and environmental factors, diet Right. Stress, all all sorts of different factors. And you're kind of piecing together this puzzle Right.
所有这些因素。
Of all these things.
但你必须承认这些差异的存在。虽然我的癌症可能和另一个人的黑色素瘤属于同一类别，但导致癌症形成的复杂性差异巨大，对我有效的药物可能对另一个人无效。这就是为什么我们需要个性化用药，为每个人提供适合的药物。我创立过大约六家公司并出售，比如罗氏等。
And but what you're doing is you you still have to pay homage to the fact that those differences exist. And so while, you know, the my cancer might be the same class of, let's say, melanoma as another person's, The complexity of what allowed that cancer to become are so different that the drugs that would work for me might not work for another person. And so that's what basically requires us to personalize the medications in a way that gives the right drug to the right person. So I've started probably half a dozen companies and sold them. Places like Roche, etcetera.
实际上，我最近的公司卖给了10x Genomics。得益于我在2011年的一项专利，现在他们可以大幅提升我们一次性能收集的信息量。结合10x Genomics原本的单细胞基因组分析技术，我们能将信息量扩大百倍。但问题是，我可以为你收集所有数据并分析癌症，但结果可能与他人略有不同。因此，我们需要开发技术来缩小这些差异，确保为X开发的药物对X有效，而不是Y。这才是正确的方式。
Actually, my most recent company we sold to 10x Genomics, which enabled us enables them now because of a patent I created back in 2011 to scale up the amount of information that we can collect at a time that then when layered on top of what, for instance, 10x Genomics already did, which is doing what's called single cell genomic analysis, we could scale that up a hundredfold to get a hundredfold amount the information. But the problem with that is that I can collect all that data and make an analysis of a cancer for you, but it might be a little bit different than another person. So what we have to do then is develop techniques that allow us to narrow in on what the differences might be so that when I develop a drug for person x, it works for person x and not for person y. Right? The right way.
所以需要
So there's a lot
很多
of
医学个性化。正是这种多样性让人类伟大，让我们能在众多挑战中生存——个体差异使得某些人能存活而另一些人不能。癌症和药物也是如此。比如在药理学中，我最早学到的就是总要在疗效与损伤之间权衡。
personalization in medicine that is required. The the diversity that makes humanity great and that makes humanity able to survive in the face of so many challenges is that there are individual differences that one person might survive and another won't. It's the same thing with cancers. And it's the same thing with drugs. I mean, the you know, for instance, with certain drugs, it one of the first things I learned in pharmacology when I was, you know, way back in the day is that there's always a benefit to damage ratio that you're having to deal with.
一种药物有积极疗效，但也存在副作用。因此作为科学家或临床医生，我们会基于统计数据做出选择。哪些人最可能受益？但顺便一提，这些副作用可能会影响你。总体而言，全球范围内60%的人会存活下来。
That a drug has a positive outcome, but there are side effects. And so as scientists or as clinicians, we make a choice based on the statistics. Who will benefit the most and will it benefit the most? But by the way, there's all these side effects that might affect you. And, you know, overall, globally, sixty percent of people will survive.
但由于我对你具体病情一无所知，根据法律规定，我必须先给你使用这种对60%人群有效的药物，直到我能确认你的疾病属于另外40%的亚型。实际上，这正是许多制药公司在努力的方向——他们试图将诊断方法与疾病亚型精准匹配。如果能证明某个亚型90%的患者会存活，法律就要求必须先通过诊断排除这个亚型，才能使用那款60%有效的药物。这样说清楚吗？
But since I don't know anything more about your specific disease, I am, by law, required to give you the 60% drug until I know or can distinguish that your disease is a different subclass than the sixty percent. And that's, in fact, a lot of what pharmaceutical companies are doing is they're trying to marry a diagnostic to the disease itself, the disease subtype itself. So that if you can show that ninety percent of the people of this kind of subclass will survive, you have to, by law, choose that diagnostic to make sure that the person doesn't have the subclass before you give them the 60% drug. Does that make sense?
明白。确实如此。过去几十年的主流观点一直是——要避开阳光。嗯。
Yes. Yeah. It does. The narrative has always been over the, you know, last few decades, stay out of the sun. Mhmm.
但最近开始有人提出：不，其实需要循序渐进地适应阳光，真正的问题在于人们总是涂着防晒霜出门，结果反而被晒伤。当然你的情况很特殊...是的，因为你携带特定基因。
But recently, people started saying, no. It's actually you need to become accustomed to the sun, and the real issue is people using sunscreen all the time and then going out and getting burned. Obviously, your situation is very different Yeah. Because you you have a specific gene.
而且我是爱尔兰人。
And I'm Irish.
对，这就是问题所在。那些在阴雨连绵之地生活了数十万年的族群基因。
Yeah. So that's that's the problem. Right? Yeah. The genes of the people that lived in cloudy ass places for hundreds of thousands of years.
我母亲在我小时候——我现在64岁了——那时我们去康涅狄格的海滩，她会给我全身抹满椰子油。
And my mother, when we were kids I mean, I'm 64 years old. So when I was a kid, you know, we'd go to the beach in Connecticut, and they'd smother me in in, you know, coconut oil.
哦没错！我们小时候都用婴儿油，结果个个晒得像烤肉。
Oh, yeah. Right. Baby oil when I was a kid. Everybody had baby oil, and everybody got barbecued.
是啊，我小时候还在田间干农活，这可不是什么好事。
Yeah. Plus I worked in the, you know, in the fields as a kid for, you know, farm farm labor. And that's not good. That wasn't good.
皮肤灼伤才是真正的伤害，多年后可能演变成皮肤癌。确实如此。
The burning, the that's the real the damage to the skin, and then it manifest itself as cancer far later in life. Right. Right.
是的。所有这些微妙的，我们称之为闷烧的突变，正等待着第二次或第三次的打击。
Yeah. There's all these subtle let's call them smoldering mutations that are waiting for a second or a third hit
对。
Right.
发生。或者，比如，你年纪大了，免疫系统开始有点不正常，不再能处理二十年前本可以完美修复的问题。
To occur. Or for, you you know, instance, you get old enough so that your immune system is kinda going wonky, and it no longer is able to take care of something that twenty years ago, it would have been able to heal Right. Heal perfectly well.
这有道理。那么关于需要多晒太阳但不要晒伤的说法，这是现实吗？嗯，这要看是谁。
That makes sense. So is there any this this narrative that you need to be in the sun more and that just don't get burned, is that reality? Well, it depends on who
我是说，对我这样的人来说，不是。但太阳显然有好处，比如维生素D。
I mean, for someone like me, no. But there are positives, obviously, for the sun. I mean, I mean, vitamin d. Right. As an example.
但它们也能在早上重置你的生物钟，而不是晚上服用褪黑激素。只需用玻璃挡住紫外线，享受明亮的光线。危险的是紫外线，不是光本身。
But they're also, you know, resetting your clock in the morning rather than taking melatonin at night. Go and just, you know, in a bright use use glass to shield out the ultraviolet and get some bright light. It's the UV that's the danger. It's not light.
所以对你来说，你从不直接晒太阳？
So for you, you don't you don't ever just go sit in the sun?
再也不了。
Not anymore. No.
但我曾经——因为黑色素瘤。
But I was Because of the melanoma.
因为我小时候很蠢。我会去晒日光浴床，因为我想看起来黝黑。那时我确实晒黑了，但现在显然不行了。
Because I was an idiot when I was a kid. I mean, I would go use tanning tanning beds because I thought, oh, I wanted to look, you know, tan. Right. And I did tan back then, but, you know, obviously can't anymore.
是啊。现在真的很少见到那些了，对吧？
Yeah. You don't really see those anymore, do you?
不，还是有的。
No. You do.
也许在西雅图之类的地方还能看到。
Maybe in, like, Seattle.
有些人确实会这么做。对。我是说，显然光照是有好处的。我不是说别去做这件事。而且我觉得，总有一天——昨晚我和几个朋友吃饭时还在聊这个——或许借助CRISPR这样的技术，我可以在身上涂抹CRISPR药膏。
Some people do. Yeah. There's you know I mean, I I think there's obviously, there's a benefit to light. I mean, I'm not saying don't go out and do it. And if and, you know, I I think as well, there'll come a day, and I was just talking with some friends of mine at dinner last night, is, you know, maybe with things like CRISPR, I could rub a CRISPR ointment on my body.
它能修复我皮肤里的单点突变，这样我就能重新享受阳光了。
It would fix the single point mutation in my skin, and then I could enjoy the sun again.
这真的有可能实现吗？哦对，德尔塔计划？
Is that really potentially Oh, yeah. Delta plan?
我觉得...哦对，不。我们现在...
I think oh, yeah. No. I think we're How
离实现还有多远？
far away are we?
说实话，人们总说五年是个大概的期限。但真的，我认识一些人已经在开发递送基因的系统了，就是RNA到细胞的技术。我知道在某些场合这是个敏感词，但有些RNA配方可能不会像新冠疫苗那样引发问题。
I think honestly, I mean, people always say five years is sort of like this horizon. But, no, I really I mean, I know people who are already developing systems for delivering genes, you know, RNA to cell. I know that's a dirty word in some, but there are formulations of RNA that probably won't be as problematic as some of the things that maybe the COVID vaccine might have done.
没错。现在一提RNA，人们就紧张。
Right. Yeah. RNA right now, you say, and people clench.
他们是的。没错。是的。但是，我是说，你的细胞里充满了RNA。所以，你无法回避一个事实，那就是你的细胞里充满了RNA。
They yes. Exactly. Yeah. But, I mean, your your your cells are full of RNA. So, I mean, you can't get away from the fact that your cells are full of RNA.
这只是信使RNA。是的。
It's just the messenger RNA. Yeah.
是的。但它也是递送的手段。嗯。对吧？我是说，递送它的手段是一种核苷酸的配方，其本身旨在成为一种称为佐剂的东西。
Yeah. But it's also the means by which they delivered it. Mhmm. Right? I mean, the the means by which it was delivered was a formulation of a nucleotide that by itself was meant to be something called an adjuvant.
佐剂是一种激活你想要的免疫系统的东西。我是说，当你接种疫苗时，你会同时注射一种能过度激活免疫系统的东西，让它说‘过来’。
An adjuvant is something which activates the immune system you want. I mean, when you get a vaccination, you are co injected with something that hyperactivates the immune system to say come hither.
对。
Right.
而且，你从注射中感受到的大部分疼痛不是疫苗本身，而是佐剂。
And and most of the pain that you get from an injection is not the vaccine itself. It's the adjuvant.
对。本节目由On X Hunt赞助。猎人们，听好了。数百万猎人使用On X Hunt应用程序，原因如下。它把你的手机变成一个在任何地方都能工作的GPS，即使没有手机信号。
Right. This episode is brought to you by On X Hunt. Hunters, listen up. Millions of hunters use the On X Hunt app, and here's why. It turns your phone into a GPS that works anywhere even without cell phone service.
你可以准确看到自己的位置、每一条地界线以及土地所有者。你可以连接你的蜂窝追踪相机，设置自定义航点，调整风向，还有更多功能。无论你是在公共土地上追逐麋鹿，寻找鹿租赁地的偏僻角落，还是敲门请求许可，onX Hunt都能给你知识和信心，让每次狩猎更成功。不再猜测边界、浪费白天时间或好奇下一座山脊后面有什么。你将了解每一步。
You'll see exactly where you are, every property line, and who owns the land. You can connect your cellular trail cams, drop custom waypoints, dial in the wind, and a whole lot more. Whether you're chasing elk on public, finding the back corners of your deer lease, or knocking on doors for permission, onX Hunt gives you the knowledge and confidence to make every hunt more successful. No more second guessing boundaries, wasting daylight, or wondering what's over the next ridge. You'll know every single step.
最好的猎人不是靠运气。他们是有备而来。这就是你达到目标的方式。所以在下次狩猎前，获取On X Hunt，今天下载，并使用代码JRE e在onxhunt.com上享受会员资格20%的折扣。所以这个问题在于它把你的整个身体变成了一个刺突蛋白工厂。
The best hunters aren't lucky. They're prepared. This is how you get there. So before your next hunt, get On X Hunt, download it today, and use the code JRE e for 20% off your membership at onxhunt.com. And so the problem with this was that it it turned your whole body into, like, a a spike protein factory.
是的。嗯，至少局部是这样。是的。是的。不。
Yeah. Well, at least locally. Yeah. Yeah. No.
我读过一些相关的研究。
I've read some of the some of the work.
但并不总是局部性的。对吧？因为很多人并没有进行抽吸操作。是的。没错。
But not always locally. Right? Because didn't some they didn't a lot of they didn't aspirate with a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah.
他们当时很担心。对任何人都进行了抽吸。但电视上的总统却没有。
They were they were worried. Aspirated with anybody. They didn't with the president on TV.
但如果你感染了病毒，它其实已经遍布全身。所以关键在于刺突蛋白本身是否有问题。我知道在这个领域发表任何观点都会惹恼某一方，我并非要引发争议。不过免疫系统确实会发挥作用。如果能诱导免疫系统提前防御，那当然是好事。
But if you if you get infected by a virus, it's all over your your whole body anyway. So it's whether the spike protein itself was problematic. And so, you know, I I I know I'll annoy somebody one side or the other by saying anything around this area, and I'm not here to cause any controversy. But, you know, your immune system works. But if you can trick your immune system into getting ahead of the game, then that's a good thing.
问题又回到成本效益比上。对更广泛的统计人群而言，其收益是否值得以部分人可能受到伤害为代价？这才是关键。比如癌症疫苗领域，目前有几种即将问世的癌症疫苗，对我这样的人来说——考虑到我每年要经历四次切除手术...
The question is back to this cost benefit ratio. Is the benefit to the larger statistical population worth it knowing that some people are gonna be hurt by it or not? That's the question. So for instance, you know, back to cancer and vaccines, there's a number of cancer vaccines that are coming down the pike that for people like me would be I mean, given that I get something chopped off of me four times a year
真的吗？
Really?
千真万确。你真该看看我，浑身像是从战场回来似的。有人说这样很性感。
Oh, yeah. You should see me. I look I look like I've been in a war zone. You know? Some people say, oh, that's hot.
他们就是这么说的——很性感。
And that's the they say that's hot.
哇，有人对自残倾向感兴趣？确实。完全理解。
Wow. Someone's into cutters? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
这太有意思了。但除了切除之外，是否还有其他方法可以处理这些问题？或者说这是唯一能将其从体内清除的方式？
So that's so fascinating. But is there another way that could potentially deal with those things other than cutting them off, or is that the only way to remove it from your system?
现在必须立即切除它。
Right now, it has to be cut off.
问题是这些黑色素瘤一旦在皮肤上形成病灶，就会扩散。
So the the issue is that once those the melanoma once these lesions are on your on your skin, they will expand.
是的。幸运的是，我的大部分病灶属于表层扩散型。不过其中一个是结节型的，会直接向深处侵袭。信不信由你，是我的狗发现的——它当时在嗅我手臂上的那个部位。真的吗？
Yes. Luckily, most of mine are what are call have been called surface spreading. Although one of mine was what's called a nodal, which basically dives right in. And believe it or not, my dog found it and was sniffing at it on my arm. Really?
然后开始抓挠那个地方，后来就不流血了。你看，我可以给你看疤痕。
And, like, started, like, scratching at it, and it stopped bleeding. You know, I'll show you the scar.
你养的是什么品种的狗？
What kind of dog do you have?
那是十五年前的事了。它是只博美犬，不过你看，疤痕还在那儿。
He well, this was fifteen years ago. He was a Pomeranian, but, you know, you can see the scar there.
哇，太不可思议了。
Oh, that's crazy.
当时伤口一直流血不止。后来我去检查，医生说如果再晚一周就可能转移了。是啊，想想都后怕。
And it wouldn't stop bleeding. And so, you know, I went in and had it looked at, and they said another week, and it would have metastasized. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
它真是条好狗。非常棒。真的。关键是要早期发现这些癌症，这很重要。
He has a great dog. He was great. Yeah. He was great. But, you know, I there are so for instance, if you can catch most of these cancers early, then that's what's important.
所以我认为医疗体系最需要改革的，坦率说是推广核磁共振这类检查——而不是CT扫描，因为已知CT扫描会诱发癌症。这太荒谬了。
So I think probably one of the most important, let's say, changes to our medical system that could be initiated would be, frankly, the use of things like MRI, not CT scans because CT scans are known to cause cancer. Which is so crazy.
是啊。比如，我们是什么时候意识到这点的？
Yeah. Like, when did we figure that out?
我是说，最近刚发表了一项大型研究，显示CT扫描普及后人们的情况，你会看到数据突然激增。这又回到了成本效益比的问题。如果没有CT扫描，有些人可能永远不会知道自己体内有个巨大肿瘤。比如我得肾癌那次，当时我正和朋友在餐厅谈生意，去洗手间时发现尿血了。
I mean, they there was, like, a big study just published recently that said, here's what happens to people once CT scans were implemented, and you see this sudden spike in the I mean, again, it's this cost benefit ratio. If you didn't have it, certain people wouldn't have you know, wouldn't know that they have a giant tumor in there. Right. I mean, so for instance, I had when I had kidney cancer, I was actually at a restaurant with friends doing a business deal, actually. And I went to the bathroom, and it was blood.
我当即决定必须立刻去急诊室。做了CT扫描后，发现肾脏周围的支气管树已经大面积扩散。医生进来直接告诉我：你得了癌症。
And I said, okay. We gotta go to the, you know, we gotta go to the, you know, to the emergency room, like, now. And then they did a CT scan, and they see this. The the brachial tree around my kidney was just a big diffuse mess, and they came in and said, you've got you've got cancer.
当时必须切除肾脏吗？
Did you have to have your kidney removed?
对，切除了。不过还好，至少我还活着。
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was but, you know, it it's okay. I'm alive.
幸好肾脏有两个。
It's nice to have two of them.
没错。能活着就好，但早期发现确实关键。我很幸运癌细胞尚未转移，当时确诊的是透明细胞肾细胞癌。
Yes. Exactly. I'm alive, but, you know, it is is this early detection is important. I I was lucky that it hadn't metastasized yet. It's called it was called clear cell renal cell carcinoma.
现在市面上那些做全身扫描的公司很重要。即使你年轻且没有患癌迹象，建立基准数据供未来对比也很关键。比如做CT或核磁时，常会发现许多小异常，医学上称为'幻影病变'——这些可能是隐患，但当下无法判断。当然可以通过穿刺活检取样本...
But you know? So surveying the body and these companies that are out there right now which do it, I think are really important because even if you are young and you have no suspicion you're gonna have cancer, having that baseline against which you can compare later changes is important because I could do, for instance, a CT scan or an MRI view, and I find lots of little anomalies. And they're generally in the field called phantomas. There are these objects that may be worrisome, but we won't know that they're worrisome. And, certainly, I could do a biopsy of them and, you know, poke a needle into your chest to pee pee pick out a piece of it.
但如果半年后复查发现病变有变化，就可能需要严肃对待了。所以定期做这类扫描很重要，但最好不要用CT扫描。
But if I come back six months and it's changed, then maybe it's something we need to go after, you know, more seriously. So getting those kinds of regular scans, I think, is probably one of the more important things that could be done, but not by a CT scan.
这很疯狂，毕竟CT扫描沿用多年。但现在还会做吗？毕竟某些情况下还是必要的...
Which is crazy because we we're doing them for so long. Did they they still do CT scans, though, because it's necessary. It's necessary for
某些事情。
certain things.
没错。就是让人们知道这可能导致癌症。就像，哎呀。
Right. Which is letting people know this might cause cancer. It's just like, yikes.
是的。但或许，比如说，可以提前用某种药物治疗来最小化CT扫描的影响。啊，对吧？因为CT扫描通常会造成氧化损伤。
Yeah. But maybe, for instance, there'd be a way to treat someone with a drug ahead of time that would minimize the effect of the CT scan. Ah. Right? So that you know, because the CT scans are generally causing oxidative damage.
所以如果能提供局部抗氧化剂——我不是说这种东西已经存在。对，这说法有点天真。但如果能在成像区域或全身做到这一点，也许CT扫描的不良后果就能减轻。
And so if you could provide a local antioxidant, and I'm not saying that something like this exists. Right. It's a bit of a naive statement. But if you could do that locally to the area that's being imaged or to the whole body, then maybe CT scans could be lessened in their problematic outcomes.
我会说这是创新且充满希望的。更倾向于肯定而非天真。对，我不认为天真，因为你意识到了问题所在。
I would say innovative and hopeful. More Yes. Would naive. Yeah. I don't think it's naive because you're recognizing the issue.
对，谢谢。
Right. Thank you.
那么，X光也曾有同样问题对吧？比如X光技师——我看过他们手的照片，因为技师过去得用手检查X光机是否正常工作。多年后他们才发现：
So how well, this was also a problem with X rays. Right? Like, X-ray technicians. Like, I I've seen some of those images of people's hands because the technician used to have to use their own hand to check to make sure that the X-ray was functional. And then over the years, they go, hey.
“我的手到底怎么了？”然后才意识到，糟糕。
What the fuck is wrong with my hand? And then they realize, oh, boy.
没错。有意思的是，X光或CT扫描造成的伤害，其实是加速了原本随机诱发癌症的损伤过程。因为它具有随机性——让我回溯下癌症最初为何发生。让我们回到进化初期，单细胞生物首次相遇时，选择合作而非互相消耗。
Right. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because what's what's happening with X rays or CT scans is a fast forward of the kind of random damage that causes cancer in the first place. And so because it's random let me kinda go back a little bit as to why does cancer happen in the first place. So let's go way back in evolution to the first time that that there were single cells versus the first time that two cells met each other and said it was better to to join forces and cooperate rather than to divide at each other's expense.
在这个过程中，两三个细胞结合时形成了基因层面的社会契约。随着复杂度增加，契约也越来越复杂，以至于任何复杂契约的破裂都可能引发癌变级联反应。所以癌症并非进化进程，更像是向分裂本能的退化回归。
So in the process of that happening, those two cells came together or three or four cells. They basically said, together, we're better than alone. But there were actually social compacts and contracts that at the genetic level were being formed between all of these cells. And so as things got more and more complex, more and more complex contracts were formed to the point at which what could happen is that any one of the breaking of a complex contract could actually then initiate a cascade that becomes cancer. So rather than we thinking of cancer as being a forward progression in evolution, it's actually another way to think about it is that it's a devolution back to the core fire of the desire to divide.
因此，通过破坏这些契约，打破系统的控制，癌症得以滋生。问题在于，每种组织类型，无论是肺、脑还是其他器官，都形成了完全不同的契约生态系统。所以没有一种万能药物能消灭所有癌症，因为契约各不相同。这不像你可以请个律师来修正农业合同与海事合同之类的区别。是的。
And so by breaking the contracts, by by breaking the controls on the system, cancer is allowed to blossom. So the problem is that every tissue type, whether your lung or brain or whatever, has a whole different ecosystem of contracts that have been formed. And so there's no one size fits all drug that will kill off all cancers because the contracts are different. It's not like you can bring in a lawyer and fix, you know, agricultural contracts versus maritime or whatever. Yeah.
所以关键在于，你必须保持足够灵活的思维方式。因为如果你执着于认为这是正向进化而非契约破坏，可能会错失开发新疗法或药物的机会，这些本可以帮助人们。
So that's the you know, you have to have a flexible enough mindset because if you get stuck in this, it's a forward evolution as opposed to that it's a breaking of contracts. You might miss out on an opportunity for how to develop a a a therapy or a drug that would help people.
有件事我一直想请教你——虽然不确定你是否了解——试管婴儿技术与激素相关肿瘤是否存在关联？因为女性需要注射大量强效激素，这些药物是否会导致此类肿瘤？
One of the things that I I wanted to ask you on, I don't even know if you know anything about this, but is there a connection between IVF and the amount of because you you have to take some pretty extreme hormones. There's a lot of stuff that women have to take. Is there a connection between that and hormonal related tumors?
老实说我不清楚。我不想妄加评论，然后明天收到半数同事的谴责邮件。
I honestly don't know. So I don't wanna opine and then have half my colleagues send me emails tomorrow scolding me.
好的。很高兴你这么回答。我曾非常信任的人告诉我有关联，但上网查证却显示没有——不过这也不意外。
Okay. Good. Well, I'm glad you answered that way. I I I was told by someone who I really trust that there is. And then we tried to Google it, and it said there's not, but that's not surprising.
可能尚未开展正确的研究。如果没有，那确实应该研究。任何激素失衡都不是好事，它会扰乱系统代谢。比如回到我研究的MIDF疾病，市面上所有抗衰老药物如N-乙酰半胱氨酸、甜菜碱等，根据我的癌症代谢机制分析，每一种都会加速病情恶化。
Probably there hasn't been the right kind of study yet. And if there is not, there should be. I mean, certainly, any hormonal imbalance is not a good thing. I mean, you imbalance the metabolism of the system, and you can I mean, so for instance, back to my specific disease with MIDF, I've there's all kinds of things like n s and then and acetyl and acetylcysteine, betaine, all these other drugs that are out there for longevity? Well, if I look into the metabolism of what my cancer is, every single one of those is a is a disaster for accelerates.
是啊，非常糟糕。非常糟糕。
Yeah. Yeah. You know? Not good. Not good.
因为存在所有这些反馈机制。人们常说科学家没有宗教信仰，但对我来说，没有什么比认识到细胞的复杂性和生命的精妙更令人敬畏的了。
So because there's all these feedback mechanisms. Right? You know, people often say, you know, scientists are not religious. There's nothing that inspires more more awe in me than knowing the complexity of the cell and knowing the complexity of life. Right.
目睹这些反馈机制，并知道其背后是让人类得以存在的粒子宇宙，我只能心怀敬畏地静观这一切。
And seeing all this feedback and mechanism and knowing that underneath that is a universe with particles, etcetera, that enabled something like us to exist. I just sit in awe of that.
确实令人敬畏。任何不这么认为的人，要么没留心观察，要么就是故意装糊涂。
Well, yeah, it's awe inspiring for sure. I mean, anybody who doesn't think it is is not paying attention or they're purposely being ignorant.
对。
Right.
是啊。不过我们经常遇到这种情况。
Yeah. We get a lot of that, though.
哦，确实。不过没关系。要知道，老师在这里应该是教书而不是说教的。希望如此吧。
Oh, yeah. Well, that's okay. You know, teachers are here to hopefully teach and not preach. Hopefully.
嗯。考虑到你患的特定癌症类型和你的情况，你是不是需要特别严格地控制饮食？我可能...
Yeah. Because of your specific type of cancer and your situation, like, do you have to, like, very closely monitor your diet? I probably
不该吃现在这么多的肉。肉？对。为什么是肉？因为脂肪的关系。
shouldn't eat as much meat as I do. Meat? Yeah. Why meat? Well, because, you know, fats.
很多脂肪会溶解相当数量的毒素。这不见得是好事。已有充分研究表明，过量摄入肉类——虽然我不是在提倡素食主义——我认为应该有个平衡点。我们成长的环境里两者都有。
And a lot of them the fats dissolve a fair number of toxins. You know, it's it's not necessarily a good thing. I mean, that's been relatively well shown that too much meat as opposed to I'm not advocating vegetarianism. I think there's a there's a happy medium. I mean, we grew up in an environment where we had both.
我们是杂食动物。嗯。我认为人类文明能成功发展，正因为我们是社会性的杂食者。但比如烧焦的肉...
I mean, we're omnivores. Mhmm. And we succeeded, I think, because we're omnivores as a society, as a, you know, as a civilization. So but, you know, charred meat for instance.
问题就在这儿对吧？烧焦的部分？
The issue, though, isn't it? Yeah. Isn't it burnt?
对。那会产生致癌物。那些美味其实是各种有害物质的混合体。人类觉得好吃，是因为进化中幸存者学会了用火杀死腐肉细菌，这种风味可能因此刻进了我们的基因。
Yeah. I mean, it's carcinogens. I mean Yeah. You know, you're making all kinds of it's a it's a witch's brew of nastiness that tastes good. But, you know, the reason why it tastes good is because the humans who survived learned to use fire to kill off the bacteria in rotten meat, And so the flavor of that probably was engineered into our evolution.
但这终究是个利弊权衡的问题。
But, again, it's a cost benefit.
但烹饪过程不是也能让我们吸收更多蛋白质吗？
But didn't the cooking of it also allow us to absorb more protein?
这个我不太确定。我
I'm not sure about that. I
认为是这样的。
believe so.
好吧，可能有道理。
Okay. That could be.
我相信事实如此，烹饪肉类确实能让身体更容易吸收营养。
I believe that's the case, that that cooking meat actually allows it to be more easily absorbed by the body.
蛋白质可能更容易分解。对。不过肯定能杀菌。比如隔夜或放了三天的鹿肉，刚猎杀的那种。
It could be broken down more readily. Yeah. But, certainly, it kills bacteria. So, you know, day old or three day old deer Right. You know, that you just kill.
熊肉也是。我们毕竟不是秃鹫，它们的消化系统能处理那些腐肉。
Bear. Or not yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, yeah, we're not vultures that seem to have digestive systems that can handle all of that.
嗯。那你该少吃肉。还有呢？你戒糖吗？糖分似乎与癌症密切相关？
Mhmm. So you should eat less meat. What what else? Do you avoid sugar, which seems to be a real problem with cancer?
对，我控制糖分摄入。对了，谢谢你的建议。
Yeah. I avoid, yeah, I avoid too much sugar. Yeah. Thanks for this, by the way.
这是无糖的吗？
Is that sugar free?
不是。但那个不是吗？不，它是
It's no. But that one's not? No. It's
没关系。我们有无糖的。
fine. We have sugar free ones.
不行。因为无糖产品里含有的成分和木糖醇之类的同样有害。
No. Because the sugar free ones have stuff in them that are just as bad as Xylitol and all the
其他的呢？甜菊糖？
other. Sevia?
对，那个可以。
Yeah. That would
不错。甜菊糖对健康不好吗？
be good. Stevia bad for you?
我不这么认为。没看到相关研究。但你看，我说过，我已经64岁了，现在改变太晚了。
I don't think so. I haven't seen anything on that. But, you know, I mean, look. Like I said, I'm 64. It's way too late.
每次科学家们对好坏做出重大预测，五年后我们总会发现需要修正。科学的本质就是今天可能犯错，但明天追求正确——我们不断用更宏观的视角检验结果的意义。
And every time that, let's say, scientists make some grand prediction of what's good or bad, five years later, we find and update Right. What it should have been. I mean, I often say this, and this is this is true. The goal of science or scientists is to be right today, even wrong today, but right or tomorrow because we're always back checking what the results are and what they mean in the context of a bigger picture.
我喜欢你说'好的科学'这点，问题就在于人们容易对已发表的观点产生固执的认同。
I like how you say good science because that's part of the problem is that ego gets attached to ideas that have already been discussed and published.
没错。
Right.
人们往往非常不愿意接受与之相悖的新证据。
And then people are very reluctant to accept new evidence that's contrary to that.
没错。就像我常说的，在我们稍后会讨论的某个背景下，偏离曲线的数据比我们已有的预测更重要。预测固然好，但当出现异常数据点时——至少在我的实验室里——我们会在组会上花最多时间试图弄清原因：是机器故障导致的误差，还是蕴含着需要我们解读的意义？
Yeah. I mean, as always, as I often say, you know, in the context of something I know we'll get to later, it's the data off the curve, which is more important than what we already predict. You know, predictions are great, but when there's a data point off the curve, at least in my lab, that's the where we spend the most time at our lab meetings is trying to figure out why that data point's off the curve. Is it because the machine was wrong? It was a, you know, it was a glitch, or does it mean something that we need to make sense of?
科学领域的所有进步正源于此——当有人对偏离曲线的数据足够好奇，深入探究后恍然大悟：'现在我退后一步看清全局，就能建立包含这个异常点及其成因的新模型了。'
And that's, of course, where all advances come from in the sciences is by the fact that the data off the curve, somebody was curious enough about what it meant to go after it and then say, ah, okay. Now I now that I've stepped back and see the bigger picture, now I can create a model that incorporates that data point off the curve and why it happened.
这是BetterHelp的广告。互联网是错误信息的温床，就连搜索'如何缓解头痛'也会弹出成千上万结果——从止痛药、排毒疗法到冷敷法，令人无所适从。即便找到对他人有效的方法，也未必适合你。
This is an ad for BetterHelp. The Internet is a breeding ground for mis information. Even a simple search for ways to get rid of a headache can produce millions and millions of results from taking pain relievers to detoxes to medication to cold compresses. It's overwhelming. And even when you do find something that's true that works for other people, it might not work for you.
有时直接咨询活生生的专家更靠谱。持续头痛就去看医生，心理困扰就找持证治疗师。在心理咨询中你能深度了解自我，比如如何自我关怀、成为更好的自己——无论是管理压力、改善关系、增强自信，一切改变都始于治疗。
In some cases, it's better to just ask a living, breathing expert. If you have a headache that won't go away, go talk to a doctor. And if you're struggling with your mental health, consult a credentialed therapist. You can learn a lot about yourself in therapy, like how to be kind to yourself and how to be the best version of you, whether you wanna learn how to better manage stress, improve your relationships, gain more confidence, or something else. It starts with therapy.
试试BetterHelp吧。数百万人从中受益，其高口碑实至名归。作为全球最大在线心理咨询平台，BetterHelp提供多元化的专业心理服务。听众专属福利：首月享9折，访问betterhelp.com/jre。
Try it for yourself with BetterHelp. Millions have benefited from their services, and there's a reason people rate it so highly. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/jre.
网址是BetterHelp.com/jre。我特别期待这次关于您研究的对话，因为向公众阐明这项工作的宏大维度至关重要——要理清人体内所有可能出错或正常的机制，需要极其庞大的...
That's Better, h e l p, dot com slash j r e. One of the reasons why I was really excited to have this conversation with you about the research that you do is that I think it's really important to illuminate to the general public the sheer scope of the task of trying to figure out what is going on in all these different things that can go wrong and right in the human body Yeah. And that it requires this fucking insane amount of
工作量。
work Yep.
需要无数人共同努力。而且...
By many, many, many, many people. And, you know,
如今需要收集的数据量级完全不同。数据、证据、结论与证明是艰难的攀登，而证明之上还有意义解读。我们实验室很大程度上推动了当今世界的数据洪流——无论是组织活检分析技术还是单细胞分析技术。曾几何时，拥有数据本身就令人满足。
and then the amount of data that had to be collected now. And so here's the difference is that, you know, there's data, there's evidence, there's conclusions and proof, and that's an uphill climb. But proof, the next one up is meaning. My lab has been largely responsible, at least partly responsible for the data deluge that's out there in the world, both in how to do tissue biopsy analysis, how to do single cell analysis, etcetera. And, you know, data felt good for a while.
事情是这样的，你知道，这是一种反馈循环，哇哦，我能获取所有这些数据。然后突然你看着它，心想，这他妈到底是什么意思？人类有个习惯，就是把自己逼入绝境，然后突然灵光一现找到出路。大约两年前，我们的顿悟时刻就是人工智能，突然间我拥有了这种能力——通常我会收集所有这些数据，然后说，好吧。
It was like this, you know, this feedback loop of, oh, wow. I can get all this data. And then suddenly you look at it and go, oh, what the fuck does it mean? And so humanity has this habit of backing itself into a corner and then suddenly finding this eureka moment that gets it out. And so our eureka moment about two years ago was artificial intelligence, where suddenly I had the ability so normally, I would collect all this data and I'd go, okay.
看起来髓系抑制细胞在这里很重要，调节性T细胞的表现也很惊人。好吧，我会打电话或发邮件给斯坦福校园内或世界各地的相关专家，试图从他们那里获取一些信息。但现在你要面对的是数百种细胞类型，每种细胞又有成千上万种变异，每个细微的变异都意味着什么。
Well, it seems myeloid suppressor cells are important here and t regulatory cells are impressive here. Okay. I get on the phone or send an email to whoever the local expert is either on Stanford campus or around the world and try to get some information from them. But then now you're dealing with hundreds of cell types, each individually of which of which have thousands of variations themselves. And each subtle variation means something.
这些领域都没有专家，但人工智能至少可以部分充当那个专家。突然间，我拥有了2200万篇发表的论文，涵盖所有科学领域，仅免疫学就有数百万篇。AI可以成为我的侦探，既是我肩上的天使也是魔鬼，它能以我从未想过的方式解读事物，尤其是具备自主性的AI。比如，我们实验室开发了一个自主AI，本质上就是一个盒子里的免疫学家科学家。我们可以给它原始数据，用自然语言提出问题。
And there's no expert for any of that, but AI can be, at least in part, that expert. So suddenly, I have 22,000,000 papers published, you know, in the in all the fields of science, you know, several tens of millions just in, you know or several millions just in immunology alone. And AI can be the sleuth for me, can be both the an angel and the devil on my shoulder that can make sense of things in ways that I never would have been able to before, especially with agentic AI. So we, for instance, in my lab, have developed an agentic AI that is basically an immune an immunologist scientist in a box. We can give it the raw data, and we can pose a question in natural language.
然后我们说，嘿，把这一切理清楚并转化成网络图。通常这需要一名研究生加上几个博士后花上好几个月才能完成。现在三小时内，我们就能得到数据如何关联的图像和假设，这是以前我绝对做不到的。刚开始时，它产生了很多幻觉，你可能听说过AI的这个现象。
And then we say, hey. Make sense of this and turn it into a network. Normally, that would have taken a graduate student along with a couple of postdocs months and months and months to put it all together. Now in three hours, we can get pictures and hypotheses of how all that data fits together in ways that I never could have done before. You know, at the beginning, it high in the beginning, it did a lot of hallucinations, which you probably heard about in AI.
但我对同事们的回应是：我最好的学生有时也会产生幻觉，对吧？关键在于人类仍在监督循环中。通过这种协作，我们现在能从数据中提炼意义，跳过许多中间步骤并加速进程。
But my answer to my colleagues is some of my best students hallucinate. Right? Right. And and so but, you know, the human's still in the loop. And so with all of this together, now we can make meaning out of the data, and we can skip a lot of the intermediary steps and speed it up.
而且它还在不断进步。比如我们最近发表的几篇论文中——我最近的一个专长领域是肿瘤免疫界面。肿瘤周围聚集着免疫系统，某些情况下肿瘤会建立屏障，通过特定细胞告诉免疫系统：忽略我们。
And it's just getting better. I mean, we, for instance, have put in a couple of papers now where so for instance, in where my special one of my recent specialties is what's called the tumor immune interface. So you have the tumor. You have the immune system, which is coalescing on, you know, near. And then in some cases, the tumor creates a boundary, a barrier between itself and the immune system where there might be certain kinds of cells that the immune system the tumor has told the immune system, ignore us.
我们不存在。但现在我们能做的是——当你观察复杂患者群体时，会发现所谓的三级淋巴结构。人体约有220个淋巴结，那是免疫系统做决策的地方。
We're not here. And then but what we now can do is there's well, on the on the other side of when you look at, let's say, complex patient populations, you find these things called tertiary lymphoid structures. So your body has 220 or so lymph nodes. Okay? And the lymph nodes are where the immune system makes decisions, let's say.
事实证明在肿瘤内部，身体进化出了形成类似淋巴结构的机制。这就像是免疫细胞的前哨站，肿瘤中这种结构越多，患者预后越好。我们通过结直肠癌患者队列，研究了数百份活检样本，进行伪时间分析：从成熟的三级淋巴结构回溯到更不成熟的阶段，最终定位到需要聚集才能形成成熟结构的细胞类型。
It turns out that in the middle of tumors, the body has evolved a mechanism to create what essentially looks like a lymphoid structure in the middle of the tumor. It's sort of a forward camp of immune cells that the more of those you see in a tumor, the better will be your outcome as a patient. And so we used a cohort of colorectal cell, basically, colon cancer patients where we looked at hundreds of biopsies. And we did that pseudo time analysis where we looked for mature tertiary lymphoid structures, and then we looked for immature, slightly less mature, even more less mature, etcetera. And we were able to backtrack to the cell types which need to come together that would then form the more mature.
这有什么用？除了是篇好论文，更重要的是它告诉我们如何在肿瘤中培育更多这种结构。因为多项研究已证实，三级淋巴结构越多，化疗效果越好。比如确诊后，我们可以通过病毒疗法等手段，向肿瘤输送启动这些结构形成所需的细胞因子。虽然收益巨大，但如果没有AI，至少在我的实验室里我们永远发现不了这些——它简直...
What use is that? It's a nice paper, but it also now tells us what we might do to create more of these in a tumor. Because the more we already know from multiple kinds of tumor types now that the more of these tertiary lymphoid structures you have, the better off will be your outcome with chemotherapy. So it might be, for instance, that once we know that you have a disease like this, we could give you some kind of therapy, a virus or what have you, that goes in homes to the tumor, seeds the beginnings of these initiators with there's these cytokines that are produced that are necessary for initiating the formation of these objects. And so there's a huge benefit to that, but we never would have found those, in my lab at least, without the AI because it Wow.
替我们完成了所有工作。这太神奇了。确实。
It basically did the work for us. That's fascinating. Yeah.
你们现在使用的是标准的大语言模型，还是构建了特定架构来与大语言模型交互？
Now are you using, like, a standard large language model, or are you do you have, like, a a specific structure that's built that interfaces with large language?
没错。我们可以使用几乎所有大语言模型，但目前发现OpenAI最适合我们。然后我们创建了一个代理覆盖层——你可能知道的'思维链'方法，其实就是一系列问题。
Correct. So we use well, we can use pretty much any of the LLMs, but right now, we find that OpenAI is the best for us at least. And then we create an agentic overlay. Basically, what's called, you probably know, chain of thought Mhmm. Which is a series of questions.
我们的训练方式是：先列出科学家可能提出的100种关于免疫系统的问题，然后让ChatGPT生成上千个类似问题。这些人工生成的问题经过我们筛选后，再基于它们产生100个假设，并衍生出数千种假设类型，对应四种可能的测试方案。
So how we taught it was we basically came up here's a here's a 100 kinds of questions a scientist would ask about the immune system. And then we tell ChatGPT, now create a thousand questions like this. So, you know, it's artificial data or artificial questions. We curate those to make sure that they're good. Then we do a 100 hypotheses, and we create thousands of types of hypotheses, etcetera, in the same four tests that you might run.
这样我们就建立了一个端到端的代理AI：输入原始数据后，它能自动处理数据、生成假设，并直接告诉你下一步该做什么实验来验证这些假设。
So now from a to z, we have an agentic AI that you give it raw data. It knows what to do with the data. It then generates hypotheses for you, and then it literally tells you the kinds of experiments you should do next to prove or disprove the hypothesis from the raw data.
就像实验室里的天才助手。OpenAI会从这个代理AI中学习吗？哦对，这其实是互利关系。
It's a genius in the lab with you. Exactly. Is is OpenAI learning from this agentic AI? Oh, yeah. So there there's a mutually beneficial relationship.
是的，虽然我们没有直接合作
Yeah. I mean, we're not working with them directly
但你们使用它时，你们的AI也在反哺OpenAI对吧？它确实从中受益。
on it. Use it and because you use it with your AI Right. It's it's benefiting from it.
最初考虑商业化是因为——我们实验室的宗旨就是要回馈纳税人，而最佳方式就是技术转化。尽管早年因此被斯坦福诟病（那时商业化被视为洪水猛兽），但我坚持这是必要过程。科学家擅长提问解题，却不擅产品化和大规模测试。所以我们觉得这个AI或许可以突破这个局限。
And we first thought to turn it into a company because that's kinda one of the things we do in my lab is if because I've always thought that it's important to give back to the taxpayer the money that they've invested in us, and the best way to do that is commercialization. I'm totally, you know, unapologetic about that even though that got me in a lot of trouble at Stanford in the early days when, you know, making money was you know, commercialization was evil and even at Stanford. And so I think that that's an important process because scientists are good at asking maybe the questions and coming up with solutions, but scientists aren't the best at commercializing it and turning it into a product that can be used or testing it, you know, in large communities. So the AI that we developed, we thought, okay. Well, maybe we can do this.
后来我们想：AI发展如此迅猛，何不直接开源？虽然可以保留特定用途，但决定把整套系统放到GitHub上供社区使用。
We thought, you know what? AI is moving so fast. Why don't we just give this to the community? Why don't we open source this? We can use it for maybe specific targeted purposes, but we're basically gonna publish the whole thing on GitHub to let other people use it.
毕竟看到有人宣称做出了类似成果，而我们的显然更优——那不如公开让同行学习借鉴。
Because we've seen other people make claims about stuff that they've already made, and it's like, ours is better. So why don't we just put it on GitHub and let people learn from it?
对商业化持抵制态度的商业行为，最初的论点是什么？
The commercial the resistance to the commercialization, what was the initial argument?
八十年代我读研究生时，基础研究——与转化研究相对——被视为知识追求的巅峰。对吧？基础研究，我们不是为了赚钱，而是为了发现事物。这很重要。
So back when I was a grad student in the in the eighties, basic research as opposed to translational research was considered the height of intellectual desire. Right? Basic research, and and we're not here to make money. We're here to discover things. And that's important.
世界上几乎所有重大发现和疗法都源于基础研究。但后来，基础研究的资金有限，于是有人开始呼吁：'嘿，你们打算怎么应用这些成果？'转化研究因此兴起。斯坦福的保罗·伯格——他早年因重组DNA技术获诺贝尔奖——提出了'从实验台到病床'的理念，意味着我们不必非此即彼。
And nearly every major discovery and every major therapy in the world came from basic research. But then, you know, there were limits to how much money you could give to basic research, and then there was a desire at a certain point to say, hey. Let's what are you gonna do anything about this? You know, are you gonna make any so translational research became a push. So this guy at Stanford by the name of Paul Berg, who won the Nobel Prize for gene for recombinant DNA way back in the day, And Paul came up with this concept bed to you know, bench to bedside, meaning that we don't have to be either or.
我们可以成为整个链条的一部分。斯坦福医学院希望既保持我们擅长的基础研究，又能直接惠及患者，将临床医生的需求与基础研究者联系起来。多数科学家乐于研究任何课题——只要给我方向，感兴趣就行。而当我们的工作价值被认可时，没有比这更令人欣慰的了。
We can be part of an arc, and Stanford wanted to be an enable within the medical school, both the basic research, which we were great at, as well as bringing it directly to the patients as well. So to link clinicians and the desires of clinicians with the basic researchers. I mean, most scientists would be happy just to study anything. You know, just point me at something, and I'll be happy if I can get interested in it. So and we are no more happy than when somebody recognizes the value of what we do.
基础研究曾是至高追求，商业化则备受排斥。我任助理教授时——其实从MIT师从逆转录酶诺奖得主戴维·巴尔的摩开始——就执意回到斯坦福，因为这里对商业化更包容。
Right. But basic research was sort of the height, and there was a push against anybody trying to commercialize. So when I started as an assistant professor so I started as a grad student. I went to MIT to work with this guy, David Baltimore, who won the Nobel for reverse transcriptase. And then I wanted to come straight back to Stanford because I already felt that it was a positive environment for commercialization.
我的导师伦纳德·赫茨伯格拥有斯坦福最赚钱的两项专利——荧光激活细胞分选仪和人源化抗体技术，为学校创收数亿美元。他们自己只留基本生活费，其余投入实验室运营。我从他们那里学会了兼顾基础研究与商业化的方法。
My bosses my former bosses' mentor is Lenin Lee Herzberg, had two of the biggest patents at Stanford. They had the fluorescence activated cell sorter and then what are called humanized antibodies, which brought in hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to Stanford. And they should they gave personally most of their own money away. They didn't they made kept enough to survive, but then they gave most of the money away, they ran their own lab off of a lot of that money. But so I had learned from them about how to still do basic research but commercialize on the side.
我本想带回这种理念，但药理系的教授们警告我别碰商业化。我置之不理，创立了纳斯达克上市公司。多年后，这些教授却坐在我办公室请教如何创业。
And so I wanted to bring that back, but the department that I came into, the department of pharmacology at the time, I was warned by many professors. Don't commercialize that. And I ignored them, and I went and started a company that went public on NASDAQ. And many of those same professors came back to me, you know, years later and sitting in my office asking me how to start a company.
当时无视他们是出于勇气吗？还是本能反应？
Why did you was it just a courageous decision to ignore them? What did you was it instinctual?
纯粹是本能——因为NIH不会资助我的设想。我开发了听起来吓人的技术：用逆转录病毒库逆向演化进程，让病毒帮助而非伤害细胞。通过分析病毒对细胞的改良作用，我们以此发现了价值数亿美元的靶点，化病毒之害为利。
It just was instinct it was like because I couldn't see the NIH funding what I wanted to do. Mhmm. So I had developed a way this will sound scary, but I developed a way to use retroviruses and make libraries of retroviruses to reverse the process of evolution in a way that rather than viruses hurting the cell, I set it up so that viruses would help the cell. And once they helped the cell, I would figure out what they did. And so we sold hundreds of millions of dollars of targets that way using retroviral libraries to basically find targets and use use some of the benefits of viruses, but to our advantage.
逆转演化这个概念本身就很迷人，伴随诸多伦理问题。但如果没有这些约束...而且能大规模实施的话...
Just the concept of reversing evolution is fascinating because it comes with there's so many ethical implications. But if you didn't have any of those Yeah. And you could do that large scale
当时我在David的实验室与Warren Pear共同开发了一种方法，称为293T逆转录病毒生产系统。这是一种能快速大量制备这类病毒的技术。它实际上是基于Richard Mulligan的研究成果，他曾在David Baltimore实验室做博士后，并在斯坦福大学Paul Berg的实验室开发了基于3T3细胞的逆转录病毒生产系统。所以这里有很多学术传承的痕迹。
Well, I had developed in David's lab along with this guy Warren Pear a means. It's called the two nine three t retroviral producer system. It was a way to make large numbers of these viruses very quickly. It really followed on the work of this guy, Richard Mulligan, who'd also been a postdoc with with David Baltimore, who developed what was called the three t three based retroviral production system, and he developed it in Paul Berg's lab at Stanford. So there's a lot of sort of, you know, interbreeding here.
但那个方法需要三个月时间。于是我带去了一个叫293的细胞系，向实验室提议：'或许我们可以用它快速制备病毒'。具体原理就不赘述了，但我们将时间从三个月缩短到了三天。如今全球数万个实验室都在使用这个系统，它可能是我所有发明中每年带来最多收益的——因为斯坦福选择以许可授权而非专利形式推广。
But the problem with that was it took three months. So I had brought with me a cell line called 293 that I introduced to the lab and said, hey. Maybe we could use this to make viruses quickly. I won't go into the details of why, but we could do it in three days rather than three months. And so that now I mean, tens of thousands of labs use that worldwide, and it probably generates the most money for me every year over any of my other inventions just because Stanford, rather than patenting it, licenses it.
许可授权是永久有效的，而专利只有十七年保护期。斯坦福在这方面做了明智的选择。
And licenses are forever, whereas patents have a seventeen year lifespan. So Stanford made a good choice there.
你认为这只是学术界的偏见吗？比如'我们不该关注金钱，应该专注于研究本身'这种观念？是的，他们有点本末倒置了。
So do you think it was just a bias academic bias? Like, we shouldn't be focusing on money. We should be focusing on the work. Yes. And they missed the forest for the trees.
但后来人们...我是说他们最终明白了。现在这种观念已经改变了不少，不过...实验室里还是不该抱着'我来这是为了赚钱'的想法。
But then people I mean, they eventually learned. You know? I mean and it's it I I wouldn't say that it's the it's the way that people think anymore, but it there's still a little bit of a I mean, you shouldn't walk into the lab thinking I'm here to make money.
这正是他们担心的。
That's what they're worried about.
没错，对吧？
Yeah. Right?
对，他们担心学术会被彻底商业化。
Right. That's they're worried about the bastardization of it all. Right.
所以斯坦福早期就制定了明确规则：当你创办公司并授权专利或创意后，虽然可以继续参与公司事务，但实验室技术不能直接输送给该公司。他们还为每个授权设立了监督委员会，确保学生权益不受侵害。毕竟不能让学生暗中研发，然后私下将成果转移给企业。
And so Stanford in the early days set up very clear lines about once you start a company and you license the patent or the idea to the company, you can still be involved with the company, but there's not a pipeline of technology now from your laboratory to that company. So they set up, you know, an oversight board for each of these licenses that make sure that, you know, the students are not being abused. You know? Because you don't want students you don't wanna be, you know, covertly getting your students to do something that then you're gonna walk behind a backdoor and then hand hand over to a company.
申请专利。
Patent it.
是啊。你知道吗？所以，你看，虽然人们常常非常担心这种情况会发生。但说实话，更多时候是公司不再需要发明者了。事实上，我数不清有多少次公司成立后，他们根本不想再和我有任何关系，因为他们有自己的事情要做。
Yeah. You know? So, you know, there's but it it's it's so interesting that there's often very much a lot of worry that that's gonna happen. But, frankly, more often is the case that the company doesn't need the inventor anymore. In fact, I can't tell you the number of times that once the company's set up, they want nothing more to do with me because they have their own thing to do.
他们不希望疯狂的学者进来否决他们的想法。我是说，像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样需要坚持公司愿景的情况确实存在，但换作是我，可能一周内就会被开除，因为我就是不喜欢别人对我指手画脚。这很简单。
They don't want the crazy academic coming in and vetoing their ideas. I mean, there's there's places for that where people like, you know, Steve Jobs needs to hold on to the the image of what he wants the company to be as opposed to, I would probably be be fired from a company within a week because I just don't like telling people tell me what to do. That's just a fact.
明白了。那么你现在从事的癌症研究，什么时候能应用到实际场景中呢？
Yeah. So where where you're at right now with this cancer research, when will this be applied in real world scenarios?
已经在应用了。真的。你看去年诺贝尔奖得主，谷歌的大卫·贝克在蛋白质结构预测方面的成果。一旦掌握了蛋白质结构，就能预测可能与之结合的分子。
It already is. It is. Already is. I mean, you know, I mean, look at who just won the Nobel Prize last year, David Baker at Google with the, you know, ability to predict protein structure, etcetera, and protein structure. Once you know the protein structure, now you can predict molecules that might come into it.
回到我正在研究的免疫系统与癌症之间复杂互动机制。如果我们能找到不同于现有药物的、类似阿喀琉斯之踵的关键节点，或许就该瞄准那里。AI和数据让我们能观察整个系统网络，突然之间面前出现了无数新机遇。以前就像看一块只有几根线的芯片，现在科学家则拥有了能观察电阻-电容-二极管-晶体管完整电路图的显微镜。
So go back to the stuff that I'm trying to do with looking at the complexities of the dance of how the immune system talks or doesn't to cancer. You know, if we can find a particular place that might be an Achilles' heel along the way towards the shutting down that is different, for instance, than what the current drugs are, Well, maybe we should aim at that. There's there's so many more opportunities that are suddenly opening up in front of us because the AI and the data is letting us look at a network of how the system is working. I mean, before, it used to be you'd look at a computer chip, and you'd see just a computer chip with a few wires. But imagine now that you, as a scientist, have a microscope that's looking at the complexities of the wiring diagram that's connecting this resistor to that capacitor to that diode to this transistor.
这就是我们现在的阶段。突然之间我们可以说：我不想动这里因为会毁掉芯片，但芯片确实故障了。那么在这里施压或那里微调，就能让免疫系统——或者说芯片——重新正常运作。
That's where we are now. And so now suddenly we can say, well, I don't wanna do that because it'll kill the chip, but the chip is malfunctioning. So let me put here or put a little bit of pressure there, and now I can reactivate the immune system or the chip to work in the right way again.
具体到你的黑色素瘤研究，你提到CRISPR可能开发某种外用药剂来解决问题。你开发的AI或AI覆盖层，是否真能协助CRISPR设计这类方案？
So when you're talking about things like with your particular issue with melanoma, when you're talking about CRISPR potentially developing some sort of a topical solution that you could put on that would fix whatever issue that you have. Is this something that this AI that you've developed or this overlay of the AI would would actually assist CRISPR in figuring out how to create something like this?
没错。因为可能需要同时作用于两三个点位。在复杂反馈网络中——我们在德州嘛，就拿炼油厂打比方——可能需要同时调节这个阀门、那个阀门和另一个阀门，才能因应那边的故障让整个系统恢复平衡。
Yeah. Because maybe it's not one place I need to press, but two or three at the same time. Right. And so when you're talking about a complex feedback network, I mean so, yeah, we're in Texas, so people do oil refinery. You You know, maybe you need to turn this valve here a little bit and that valve there and that one there to make everything work just right because something's wrong over there.
嗯。这正是AI具备人类无法企及的上帝视角之处。最让我兴奋的是，人类思维存在容量极限，而AI没有这个限制。
Mhmm. And so that's really what we're you this is where AI has the, let's say, the omniscient view that no human can. And that's what excites me about it is because I'm limited in how much I can keep in my mind at any one time or no.
确实。
Right.
但通过正确的问题、提示、提示工程，再加上AgenTic AI现在提供的幕后支撑架构，我现在能够近乎实时地提问并获得答案。所以，你知道吗，我真希望自己能重回30岁，因为我会立刻投身这个领域——光是眼下我们正在做的工作，就已经让我看到了数十个去年根本不存在的潜在新目标机会。
But with the right question, the prompt, the prompt engineering, and then with the right backbone structure behind the scenes that AgenTic AI is now, you know, providing, now I have the ability to ask the questions and get answers in near real time. And so I, you know, I wish I was 30 years old again because I would move into this area so fast and be there's I mean, I can already see with the work that we're doing dozens of potential new target opportunities that last year didn't exist at all.
告诉你个好消息：有了AI和CRISPR技术，说不定你真能重返30岁。
Well, I got good news for you. With AI and with CRISPR, you might be 30 again.
天啊，那我可太乐意了，求之不得。
May oh, I would love it. I would love it.
我觉得这个愿望...大概二三十年后就能列入可选项了。
I think that's on the love it. I think that's on the menu in about two or three decades.
嗯...我希望能...
Mhmm. I I hope
其实我只是...怎么说...算是现实吧。老实说，我都不知道自己算不算现实。
I it really I'm just being Yeah. No. Realistic. Realistic. I don't even know if I'm being realistic.
别给人虚假希望。
Don't give false hope.
这个嘛...确实不该给虚假希望。但想想我们这辈子见证的技术呈指数级发展的速度——而AI这个新变量，恐怕会彻底颠覆我们对技术演进速度的认知，就像往齿轮里扔了个巨型扳手。
Well well yeah. Don't give false hope. But, I mean, with the exponential discoveries, the exponential increase in the technological evolution just that we've seen in our lifetime. And then I think AI is some new thing that is gonna throw all that into the just a giant monkey wrench into the gears of our understanding of how quickly technology evolves.
看看Neuralink和马斯克搞的那些东西吧，现在已经有女性仅凭意念就能操控物体了...
Well, look at Neuralink as a an example in Elon Musk's stuff. You know, the woman now who can think her thoughts and make stuff happen
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为她除此之外是瘫痪的，对吧？我记得是Neuralink刚刚展示了一些这样的成果。所以展望未来，我们已经在能力上实现了指数级增长，而AI将帮助我们更快地实现其中一些目标。我能预见一个时代，或许我可以应用某种技术。
Because she's otherwise paralyzed. Right? I think it was Neuralink that just showed some of these results. So fast forward, I mean, we're already in an exponential increase in what it is that we're gonna be able to accomplish, and AI will help us accomplish some of these things faster. I can see a time where, you know, I could maybe apply something.
我不一定想要手术植入物，但也许是一种罩在头上的网，让我能通过这些技术思考问题。AI将成为我思维过程的辅助，不仅影响我的思考方式，甚至可能直接将信息反馈给我的神经系统。嗯，无需经过耳朵就能更快得出结论。当然，这也会引发各种末日般的想象场景。但我骨子里是个乐观主义者，或许再次天真地这么认为。
I don't necessarily want a surgical implant, but maybe some sort of net over my head that allows me to think through these problems. And I the AI becomes an adjunct to my thought processes, not only what it is that I think, but maybe even provides information back to me back into my system Mhmm. Directly without having to go through the ears so that I can much more quickly come to conclusions. Now there's all kinds of apocalyptic scenarios you could imagine with that as well. But I'm an optimist at heart, perhaps, again, naively so.
我也是。但我更倾向于这种结果。因为如果你不是乐观主义者，就不会有进步，因为你只会担心灾难。
Me too. But I prefer that kind of an outcome. Because if you if you're not an optimist, then there'll be no progress because all you'll do is worry about disaster.
是的，这个观点很好。但现实地说，我们可能正在孕育一种新的生命形式。
Yes. That's a good point. But, also, realistically, we might be giving birth to a new life form.
没错。我认为确实如此，而且是一种更高级的形式。我期待着AI领主以公正的方式管理政府的那一天。
Yes. And I think we are. A superior one. And, you know, I welcome the day of our AI overlords running the government rather than hopefully in an unbiased way.
我也这么说过，人们会感到恐惧，因为他们觉得人类会编程控制AI。你有没有读到过类似的观点？
I've said that too, and people get horrified because they're like, well, people are gonna be programming AI. Do do you read like, up to a point
你是科幻迷吗？你知道伊恩·班克斯的《文明》系列吗？或者尼尔·阿舍的《聚合宇宙》？他们都设想了一个未来，AI以相对仁慈的方式统治人类。他们是什么时候写的这些作品？
Are are are you a sci fi fan? Do you know the work of Ian Banks, the culture series No. Or Neil Asher, the Polyde universe as he calls it? They're like so, basically, both of them postulate a future where AI more or less benignly rules humanity. When did they write this stuff?
大概十到十五年前吧，但尼尔·阿舍还在持续出新作。伊恩·班克斯不幸在约十年前因癌症去世，他是苏格兰作家。尼尔·阿舍还健在，经常写作，他们的作品都充满创意，非常棒。我会去了解一下。
Oh, probably ten, fifteen years ago, but it's still but Neil Asher still has stuff coming out regularly. He they're both. Ian Banks unfortunately died of cancer about ten years ago, Scottish writer. Neil Asher is still alive and writes regularly, his stuff they're both great, full of ideas. I'll check it out.
而且这些AI角色也很有趣。它们会卷入自己的恶作剧中，有些甚至变得阴暗和叛逆。读起来非常有趣，尤其是伊恩·班克斯的写作风格，你会喜欢的。
And but but the AIs are also hilarious. I mean, it's not like I mean, they're they get into their own hijinks along the way, and some of them are dark and rogue. And so they're a lot of fun to read. And Ian Banks especially is hilarious in the his writing style. You would love it.
所以关于仁慈或善良的AI统治我们的想法，人们对此感到恐惧，但同时却不断被无处不在的人类腐败所惊吓。
So the idea of a benign AI or a benevolent AI Mhmm. Ruling over us, I think people are horrified by that, but yet at the same time, constantly terrified by human corruption, which is ubiquitous.
是的。
Yes.
而且在美国无处不在，我们本应成为世界上最伟大的自治实验的引领者。
And ubiquitous in America where we're supposed to be the the torch bearer for the the greatest experiment and self government the world has ever seen.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就是我们。没错。而且我们腐败透顶。确实如此。因为人性如此。
This is us. Yep. And we're corrupt as fuck. Exactly. Because it's humans.
因为人类在很多方面确实有点恶心。对吧。至少部分
Because humans are kind of gross in a lot of ways. Right. At least some
人是这样。这是因为我们生活在一个资源匮乏的社会。没错。如果人工智能能实现后稀缺时代，或许我们除了坐着尝试各种新毒品就无事可做了。是啊。
of us. That's because we live in a scarcity society. Right. And if AI enables a post scarcity, maybe we have nothing to do but sit around and try out various new drugs. Yeah.
这就涉及到社会主义了，因为很多人认为我们处于资源匮乏社会的原因之一是小部分人攫取了大部分资源。对吧。并且持续掌控着它们。确实。尤其是当你面对地球资源时。没错。
Well, this is where we get into socialism because a lot of people think that one of the reasons why we're in a scarcity society is because small groups of people have gathered up most of the resources Right. And are in constant control of them. Right. And especially when you deal with resources that are the Earth's resources. Right.
你以为你是谁啊。对吧。把地球的血液抽出来以每桶100美元的价格出售？说得对。
Who are you Right. To be sucking the blood of the Earth out and selling it for a $100 a barrel? Right.
没错。别让我开始这个话题。别让
Right. Don't get me started. Don't get
我也开始。
me started either.
是的。不。但我的意思是，再次强调，我的乐观在于，通过足够的推动与拉扯，人工智能将使我们迈向一个后稀缺时代的环境。
Yeah. No. But, I mean, that that again, my optimism is that, you know, with enough push and pull, AI will enable us to move towards a post scarcity environment.
我也这么认为，而且我认为在此过程中，它会揭露那些吸血鬼，因为对……的抗拒
I think so too, and I think in doing so, it'll expose vampires because the resistance to
没错。
Yes.
揭露这一切将会非常精彩。对吧。这将非常有趣，因为他们别无选择，只能保持透明。
Exposing this is going to be fantastic. Right. Which is gonna be very interesting to watch because they have no choice but to be transparent.
而且他们别无选择，只能开始使用AI。所以你会看到AI将以各种方式渗透到社会的各个层面，变得不可或缺。嗯。然后它会逐渐向上攀升，最终连那些可能是首席精神病患者的CEO们也不例外。对吧。
And they have no choice but to start using AI. So you're gonna see AI is going to be inculcating itself across society in various ways where it becomes indispensable. Mhmm. And then it will start to move up the food chain where eventually even the CEO who's probably, you know, the psychopath in chiefs. Right.
或者说CEO们。我们知道研究显示，嗯，领导者比追随者更容易表现出精神病态倾向。
Or CEOs. We we know that the studies have shown that Mhmm. There's more psychopathic tendencies in leaders than there are in followers.
而且你了解企业环境，因为仅仅是推销发明。是的。那是真实存在的。哦，
And you know about corporate environments because of just selling inventions. Yes. There's that's real. Oh,
确实如此。
it's yeah.
这是真实的，而且很诡异。当你遇到那些完全反社会的CEO时，感觉特别怪异。
It's real and it's weird. It's weird when you encounter them, when you encounter, like, complete sociopathic CEOs.
但是，看看——我这么说可能会惹上麻烦，但我不在乎。这可是乔·罗根的节目，
But but look at how I mean, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't care. This is the Joe Rogan show where,
要知道，我们...你光是出现在这里可能就有麻烦了。
you know, we're You're probably in trouble just for being here.
是啊。哦，我已经惹上麻烦了。没关系，我不在乎。这样，想象有两个部落。
Yeah. Oh, I already am. It's okay. I don't care. So, you know, imagine two tribes.
一个部落相对文明，只想与环境和谐共处。另一个部落有位精神变态的首领，能煽动追随者或另一个部落的人发起攻击。但存在一组基因会让人变得精神变态，另一组基因则可能让人更容易成为追随者。那么，哪组基因会留存下来？对吧？
One tribe is relatively, you know, civilized and just wants to live in harmony with its environment. Another has a psychopathic leader who can enrage his followers or the other tribe's people to attack the other one. But there's a gene set that makes a person, you know, psychopathic and also a gene set that probably makes somebody more likely to be a follower. Well, which gene survive? Right?
我们心知肚明。当这些部落彼此隔离时相安无事。但现在我们生活的环境中，部落边界已然模糊。突然间，精神变态者可以自由活动且难以辨识。
We we know. Right? And suddenly now but when those tribes were separated and independent, it was perfectly fine. But now you live in an environment where we don't know where the edge of one tribe begins and another ends. And suddenly, you have this environment where psychopathic individuals can move freely and aren't obvious.
没错。我敢肯定会有社会科学家发邮件说这个想法有多愚蠢。但我...
Right. Right. Now, again, I'm sure there's some social scientists who'll send me a boatload of emails saying how stupid that idea is. But I
我不认为这很蠢。但我觉得在职场环境和特定企业文化中，人类擅长扮演既定角色，这使得识别反社会者变得异常困难。
don't think it is stupid. But I think also when you're dealing with office environments and the the culture of a specific corporation, humans have an ability to act like they're supposed to act in that world, and it makes it very difficult to discern who's a sociopath.
确实。
Right.
因为大家都在某种程度上遵循着某种表演。对吧。
Because you're all kind of following an act. Right.
是的。既有必须遵守的规则，也有规则的边界。但我一直生活在规则边缘——如果当初听从首任系主任的指示，今天就不会站在这里。我绕过他直接获得院长许可，实质上推翻了系主任的决定。
Yes. The rules there are the rules that you're supposed to follow, and then there's the edge of the rules. Now but but I've lived at the edge of the rules. I mean, I if I followed my rules as told to me by the chairman of my first department, then I wouldn't be here today. So I ignored him, and I basically found I got permissions from the deans to do what I did, and they basically overruled the chairman.
但这仅仅是因为我敢于行动。你必须坚信自己所做之事的价值。
But that's only because I dared to do it. Yeah. Because you have to believe in the value of what you're trying to do.
没错。这就是我对企业的问题所在，因为我认为作为一种结构，当某事物对股东负有义务时，是的，必须持续赚取更多利润。
Right. Well, that's see, this is the problem that I have with corporations because I think as a structure, when you have something that has an obligation to its shareholder Yeah. To consistently make more money
嗯。
Mhmm.
每个季度，每一年，持续不断，你处于一个永无止境的增长循环中，那么你必须不择手段。是的，就像，你必须生存。如果你想作为CEO生存下去，我们不需要那些虚伪的和平主义者。嗯。毁了我们的股票表现。对。
Every quarter, every year, constantly, you're in a constant growth cycle, Then you have to do whatever it takes. Yes. Like, you have to survive. If you wanna survive as a CEO, we don't want some fucking kumbaya shithead Mhmm. Ruining our stock profile Right.
我们的投资组合。赶紧干活，兄弟。对。把事情搞定。如果你想作为CEO生存并成功，这会助长反社会人格。
Our portfolio. Get get to work, bro. Right. Get shit done. And if you wanna survive and succeed as a CEO, it encourages sociopathy.
股市虽然有其价值，但它是一个巨大的洗白和洗钱系统，让你可以将自己的道德与股市的所作所为分开。对人们来说。
The stock market, as valuable as it is, is the great whitewashing and money laundering system that allows you to separate your morals from what it is that the stock market is doing Right. To the people.
如果你是企业的一部分，责任就会被分散，因为整个机器可能在作恶，但我是好人。我只是在这个部门工作。
And if you're part of a corporation, there's this diffusion of responsibility because it the whole machine might be doing evil, but I'm a good guy. I just work in this department.
我是个毫不掩饰的资本主义者，你知道，不像我的许多同事。为你点赞。在斯坦福。我的意思是，你这么做是因为这是目前最好的选择。但我，你知道，我希望生活在一个后稀缺的世界里，让AI处理许多原本容易被腐败操纵系统的事情。
I'm an unapologetic capitalist, you know, unlike many of my colleagues Good for you. At Stanford. I mean, it's like, you do it because it's the best thing for now. But I, you know, I hope to live in a world where there will be this kind of spoke post scarcity environment, where we do let AI do a lot of the stuff that would otherwise be the place where corruption manipulates the systems.
我对AI唯一的恐惧其实是自动化，以及美国劳动力中一大部分人的彻底失业。是的。还有全球劳动力。是的。这让我害怕得要命。
My only fear with AI really is automation and the complete removal of a gigantic swath of the American workforce Yes. And the global workforce. Yeah. That scares the shit out
对我来说。这是不可避免的。
of me. That's coming.
是的。这就是为什么它让我害怕得要命。因为我认为这是不可避免的，而且我觉得除了全民基本收入之外，没有其他解决方案能补救这一点。即便如此，我对全民基本收入的问题是它违背了人性。没错。
Yes. That's why it scares the shit out of me. It's because I think it's inevitable, and I just don't think any solution other than universal basic income is gonna remedy that. And even that, the problem I have with that is that goes against human nature. Yep.
这是个问题，它剥夺了人们的身份认同，消解了他们的价值感。嗯。
And that's a problem, and it removes people's identity, removes their sense of worth. Mhmm.
是啊，我同意。不，其实我...某种程度上，我很庆幸自己64岁了，不用面对某些未来可能出现的
Yeah. I agree. No. I don't I I'm, in some ways, happy that I'm 64 years old, that I'm not gonna have to deal with some of the problems that
我觉得你终究得面对
I think you're gonna have to deal
这些问题的，老兄。我觉得你能活到那时候。谢谢你的关心。
with it, dude. I think you're gonna live. I thank you.
是啊，不，我明白。而且你掌握大量信息，能判断什么时候事物真正有价值、在正常运作。
Yeah. No. I know. You're Also, you're you're privy to a lot of information, and you're gonna know when things are really valuable and working. Yeah.
说到AI的潜力，我认为需要平衡。对吧？这是场博弈。AI在军事目标应用方面确实存在严重问题。
When you think of the potential for AI, I think there's a balance. Right? There's a battle. I think there's a real problem with AI in in terms of military objectives.
嗯。这是
Mhmm. It's a
个严峻问题，因为它不会做出道德和伦理判断。它只会说，好吧，根据设定就该这样。对吧。
real problem because it's not going to make moral and ethical Right. Decisions. It's just gonna say, like, well, the decision that they Right.
给出明确答案。本来就是被编程这么做的。
Clear answers. Programmed to do this.
没错。如果想让我成功，我就把那里的人都杀光，然后你就能得到土地，开采矿产
Yeah. If you want me to succeed, I'll just kill everybody there, and then then you'll have the land. You can get minerals out of
对。没错。是的。
it. Right. Yeah.
这把我吓得够呛。
That scares the shit out of me.
你知道，我我我认为这确实应该引起担忧，虽然我不知道答案是什么，但有很多人正在这个领域努力。我尽量关注我认为AI在科学中能带来的积极影响。比如，它让我实验室的人数从30人减少到了6人。明白吗？因为我不需要再产出数据了，实际上它已经缩减了我实验室的人力需求。
It you know, I I I think it should, and I don't know what the I don't know what the answer is, but there's plenty of people working in the area. I mean, I try to keep to the positive aspects of what I think AI can do in science. And, I mean, for instance, it's enabled me to take my lab from 30 people down to six. Right? I don't because I don't need to produce I mean, so I've it's it's actually already reduced the workforce in my own lab because I don't need to produce any more data anymore.
我需要的是解读数据的意义。
I need to make meaning of the data.
没错。我认为人类历史上所有真正具有突破性的发明都曾让人恐惧，人们担心潜在的负面影响，包括印刷机。
Right. What I think every invention that's been truly groundbreaking throughout human history has scared people, and they've worried about the potential negative side effects, including the printing press.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。就像...没错。最初有很多人说这不该存在。这太糟糕了。这会毁掉社会。
Mhmm. Like Right. They there's a lot of people in the beginning that said this should not be a thing. This is terrible. This is gonna ruin society.
人们曾认为书籍会毁掉一切。
People thought books were going to ruin things.
对。
Right.
还有很多人认为书写会损害记忆力。他们觉得不该写字。哦，真的吗？
There's a lot of people that thought writing was going to ruin your memory. You shouldn't write. Oh, really?
我没有
I didn't
指这个。人们曾有过一些疯狂的想法，嗯。有些事物最终被证明极其有益，但他们只看到其弊端，认为这可能会毁了我们所有人。
mean this. Some crazy thoughts that people had Mhmm. In terms of things that turned out to be incredibly beneficial, but they looked at the downside of it and go, this this could ruin us all.
嗯，你知道，我是说，我们了解这些眼镜和AI之类的东西，它们能某种程度上感知你的环境
Well, I you know, I mean, we know about these glasses and AIs and other things that would be sort of omniscient of your environment
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此能帮你记住，比如，我把钥匙放哪儿了
And therefore allow you to remember, you know, where did I leave my keys
对。
Right.
今天？
Today?
对。让我倒回去想想。
Right. Let me rewind.
让我倒回去。然后...我的个人硬盘。我不...我想要这个功能，但不想上传到Meta。
Let me rewind. And then My personal hard drive. I don't I would want that, but I don't want it uploaded into Meta.
你不想让任何人控制它，然后给你推送相关广告。
You don't want anybody in control of it and then offering you ads for things.
对。你知道吗？对。你知道的，
Right. You know? Right. You know,
也许你会有这样的想法，伙计，现在要是能来点‘ho ho’该多好。
maybe you have a thought like, boy, it wouldn't be ho ho be nice right now.
对。
Right.
对。然后，比如，你为什么不买些‘ho ho’呢？
Right. And then, like, why don't you buy some ho hoes?
对。是啊。
Right. Yeah.
它们现在正在打折。
They're on sale right now.
但但我觉得AI有趣的地方在于，你知道，我们把它视为工具，但实际上很快它就会成为同事，然后很快又会成为一个实体。是的。一个可能拥有权利的实体。我们已经看到人们在讨论，AI是否有意识？对。对吧？
But But I think what's interesting about AI is, you know, we see it as a tool as opposed to actually, pretty soon, it will be a colleague, and then pretty soon, it will be an entity Yeah. That maybe has rights. And we already see it talking about people saying, well, does AI have consciousnesses? Right. Right?
它是否具有某些人所认为的那种意识——你知道的，那种体现在时空中的意识——还是说它只是看起来像有意识，这对我来说几乎无关紧要。我在寻找一个可以互动、合作或帮助我的伙伴。嗯。所以它是否有意识或表现得像有意识，对我来说不如我能否使用它、与它合作来得重要。你知道，我其实是个内向的人。我希望能有个人可以无休止地谈论我感兴趣的东西，而不是在派对上应付闲聊。
Whether it has consciousness in terms of the the consciousness that some people think about as, you know, embodied in space time as opposed to thinking and looking like consciousness is almost irrelevant to me. I'm looking for a partner that I can interact with and work with or help me. Mhmm. So whether it's conscious or not or whether it acts like it's conscious doesn't matter so much to me as to whether or not I can use it and work with it and it can you know, I'm I'm an introvert as it turns out. I would love to have somebody that I can talk to endlessly about just what it is that I'm interested in as opposed to having to deal with small talk at a party.
是啊。不。我懂。我懂。当你思考这些东西的进化时，让我有点害怕的是，似乎融合是我们生存的唯一选择。
Yeah. No. I get it. I get it. When you think about the evolution of this stuff, it one of the things that kind of freaks me out is if it seems like integration is our only option for survival.
嗯。
Mhmm.
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我们现在所看到的，当我们看到一个没有任何永久性电子接口的普通生物人，比如你或我，我认为那将会像今天没有手机的人一样显得怪异。
And that what we're looking at right now, when we we see just a a normal biological person like you or I without any sort of electronic interface that's permanently a part of us, I think that is going to be as weird as someone today who doesn't have a cell phone.
没错。
Yep.
我同意。而且我认为这真的
I agree. And I think that's a really
它正在到来。
It's coming.
是的。现在的手机就是最好的例子。就像埃隆·马斯克那句名言说的，我们已经是半机械人了。你只是随身携带着它。对吧。
Yeah. That's the the cell phone is, the best now. Like, Elon has famously said, we're already cyborgs. You just carry it with you. Right.
而且，最终它会
And, eventually, it will
它会更加集成化。
It'll be way more integrated.
对。现在这样效率极低，实际上还得去查找东西，嗯。用拇指打字输入，嗯。甚至和它对话提问后等待回应，嗯。
Yeah. This is super inefficient to be actually have to go look things up and Mhmm. Use your thumbs and type up stuff or Mhmm. It's just going and and even talking to it and asking a question and waiting for the response. Mhmm.
相比能即时访问大型语言模型的人类神经接口，这效率太低了。对吧。不仅如此，为什么我们还有上百种——我是说，我们到底有多少种该死的语言？我甚至都不知道。
That's inefficient in comparison to a human neural interface that allows you to instantaneously access large language models Right. Like that. Right. Not only that, but then why do we have a 100 and I mean, how many different fucking languages do we have? I don't I don't even know.
上千种？
Thousands?
是啊，我也不确定。再加上各种方言，把这些全混在一起。
Yeah. I don't know. And dialects. Add add in all of that.
不如设计一种通用语言，每个植入芯片的人都能掌握？嗯。然后，天啊...嗯。这样一来，各种想法就能自由流动，既没有语言障碍，也没有文化隔阂。
How about one universal language that everybody with a chip gets? Mhmm. And then, boy Mhmm. Boy, do we have a soup of ideas flowing around and no problem with language barriers, no problem with cultural barriers.
但这样会不会模糊你与他人之间的个体边界？
But then do you have a problem with the edge of who you are versus who the other person is?
我认为这种界限会消失。是的，我觉得界限会消失，我们会变成集体意识。嗯。我想那就是...那就是全部
I don't think that I think that goes away. Yeah. I think that goes away, and we become a hive mind. Mhmm. I think that's That's all
我正想说到这点。
I was getting at.
没错。我认为这终将是人类的进化方向。你看，我知道你在UAP（不明空中现象）领域做了大量研究，你的工作非常出色，对整个局势的分析也极其客观。当我观察人工智能，看着眼下正在发生的变革，对比人类过去与现在的状态——尤其是对比远古人类时。那个所谓的外星人原型，人们声称看到的那个形象，或者说众多变体之一
Yeah. I think that's ultimately the evolution of human beings. And, look, I know you've done a lot of work with UAPs and the like, and I think you've done some really fantastic work, and you're very objective in your analysis of what this whole situation is. When I look at artificial intelligence and I look at this this thing that's clearly taking place right now and I see what what human beings are like in comparison to what they used to be like, and especially when you look at, like, ancient hominids. The alien archetype, this thing that everybody sees supposedly or one of the many different ones
对。
Right.
似乎正是我们正在演变的方向。没错。
That kind of looks like what we seem to be going in the direction of being. Right.
是啊，我
Yeah. I
的意思是...这也正是我觉得特别诡异的原因之一。所以
mean Which is one of the reasons why I find it so odd. So
如果你暂且将UAP（不明空中现象）、外星人或ET、跨维度生物——无论你想怎么称呼它们——搁置不论，直接快进到人类在千年后的未来以及我们向邻近星系扩张的能力。我们不会以本体形态前往，而是会作为与人工智能结合的实体。
if you just, for a moment, take UAP and aliens out or ET or interdimensionals or whatever it is you wanna call them out of the question and fast forward what humanity's going to do Right. In a thousand years and our ability to expand into the local galaxy. We're not gonna go as ourselves. We're gonna go as AI conjoined entities like
像化身那样。
An avatar.
没错。假设我们没有曲速引擎技术，你不会亲自前往某处，而是会派遣一个AI中介，由它在当地环境中建立人类文明——或者说我们认为千年或五千年后人类会演变成的形态。因此我认为，当今出现的UAP现象，很可能是其他文明采用类似方式的产物。而我们可能正在接触的，并非那个文明本身的实体。
And yeah. And so when you go somewhere, let's say we don't have warp drive, you're not gonna send yourself. You're gonna send an AI intermediary who's gonna establish humanity or whatever it is that we think humanity will be in a thousand or five thousand years in that local environment. And so I think the extent to whatever it is that UAP are here today is somebody else's civilization's version of just this. And that you wouldn't the the principle, us, behind whatever this is that we might be allegedly, etcetera, dealing with isn't the thing that's gonna show up.
明白吗？就像尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森说的那样，最初登上飞船的（或启动任务的）主体，与最终抵达目的地的东西不会是同一个。你会先派遣传教士、中介或探测器之类的。如果要与当地生物互动，你会制造与它们相似度较高的东西，而非百万年前你自身的模样。这样讲合理吗？
You know? So to the extent that Neil deGrasse Tyson is right about anything, the person who gets on the ship at the beginning or whatever it is that sends it off is not the same thing that gets off on the other side. But you're gonna send missionaries or intermediaries or probes or whatever. And then if you're gonna interact with the locals, you're gonna make something that looks more or less like the locals rather than something that whatever it was that you were a million years ago. Does that make sense?
懂了。你是说制造类似当地生物的外观，这样它们更容易相信这是真实存在？
Right. I get what you're saying. So you you make something that looks like the locals so that they'll more likely to accept that it's a real thing?
确实如此，但不会完全像人类，否则会被误认为人类。可能会制造既保留部分人类特征，又带有明显外星元素的外观，让人能识别出是外星造物。再次声明，这只是我的推测。
That's a real thing, but not you're not gonna make something that looks like a human because then you'd mistake it as a human. Right. But you might make something that looks more or less enough like a human, but enough like an alien that you're gonna recognize it as an alien. And again, I'm just speculating. So Right.
所以《每日邮报》别明天就据此发文章。
So the Daily Mail don't say, you know, put a article out tomorrow.
他们反正都会写的，我太了解这些媒体了
Oh, they're gonna do it anyway. I know they're gonna
是啊。有些号称引述我言论的内容简直荒谬，但...
do it anyway. Some of the stuff that I'm seeing supposedly having quoted as saying is ridiculous, but
我也被他们乱写过。
Yeah. They got me too.
这就是他们的手段，无一幸免。天性使然。
It's They get everybody. It's the nature.
你到底是怎么卷入这事的？我们直接说重点吧。比如，你最初是怎么接触到这个的？你对UAP或UFO的概念本身有过兴趣吗？
How did you even get involved in this? Let's bring it to that. Like, so your what was your initial introduction to this? Did you have any interest in the idea of UAPs or UFOs?
我是说，我有个大概的了解——自从YouTube兴起后，你知道，随便点点就看到UFO相关内容。觉得挺酷的。我除了科幻小说什么都不读，在这方面可悲地狭隘。所以我就追踪了早期YouTube上常见的那类内容，然后发现了这个叫阿塔卡马木乃伊的东西。
I mean, I had a general so once YouTube started becoming a thing and, you know, you're clicking around and I was like, oh, UFOs. That's kinda cool. I'm you know, I read nothing but sci fi. Mean, I'm, you know, pathetically narrow in that sense. And so I followed, you know, I I followed the usual kinds of things that you would see on the early days of YouTube, and I came across this thing called the Atacama mummy.
你可能知道那个小木乃伊，被宣称是外星人婴儿的。
You probably knew that little that little mummy that was claimed to be an alien baby.
是秘鲁那个吗？
Is this the Peruvian one?
不，是智利的。
Yes. It was no. It was Chilean.
好吧，所以这是最初的那个？
Okay. So this is the original one?
最初的那个，很久以前的事了。于是我联系了声称代表物主的人。那是什么时候？2010年2月还是2011年2月。
The original one. Long ago. And so I reached out to the people who were claiming to represent the owner of the thing. And I year was this? 02/2010, 02/2011.
我说：嘿，我能告诉你这是什么。不如这样——我可以鉴定它是否是人类。只要给我一点样本...首先把它的X光片发给我。拿到X光片后，我做的第一件事就是发现斯坦福正好有位世界顶级专家，写过儿科骨骼疾病的权威著作。
And I said, hey. I can tell you what it is. Why don't you you know, I can tell you if it's human or not. If you would get me a piece of its, you know first of all, send me some X rays of the thing. So I did the first thing I did with those X rays was it turned out that at Stanford, we had the world's expert who wrote the book on pediatric bone disorders.
我把资料拿给他问：您觉得这是什么？他说：虽然没见过这种情况，但可能是这个基因、那个基因等等。然后他突然说——啊！就是这个特征！所以...没错，看起来确实很怪对吧？
And I brought it to him, and I said, what do you think this is? And he said, well, I haven't really seen this before, but it could be this gene, this gene, this gene, etcetera. He said, but here's oh, there it is. There it is. And and so, yeah, it looks weird, doesn't it?
很好。专家告诉我，我需要这样一张X光片视角，这个视角，那个视角。我们照做了，结果出来后他说，行。
Super. And so so the expert told me, okay. I need this view of an X-ray, this view, this view, this view. And so we got that, and it came back. And he said, okay.
他说我们需要做DNA测序。我说好。于是我们从肋骨取了块骨头——选肋骨是因为我觉得这个部位最不容易受细菌降解污染。我提取了些骨髓做了测序。长话短说，测序后发现有大量无法解读的DNA，但那是古早DNA。
Well, you know, we need to get some DNA sequencing, he said. I said, okay. So we got a piece of the bone from actually the rib, and the rib was important to use because that would be, I felt, an area that would be least likely to be contaminated by bacterial, you know, you know, degradation. And so I got a little bit of bone marrow out, I did the sequencing. Long story short, I had to bring in once I'd done that, there was a lot of DNA that didn't make sense, but it was it's old DNA.
其实年代不算久远，但已降解。我不得不请斯坦福的专家来修复降解，又找来恰好也在斯坦福的南美遗传学专家。接着我们组建了学生团队，还邀请了罗氏诊断——几年前我刚把一家测序公司卖给他们，所以请来了专业团队帮我组装基因组。
It wasn't that old, actually, but it was degraded. So I had to bring in experts at Stanford who knew how to fix the degradation. And then I had to bring in an expert in South American genetics who also happened to be at Stanford. And then we brought in a team of students, and then I brought in Roche Diagnostics. I had sold a sequencing company to Roche about two a few years earlier, so I brought in the team that actually knew how to help me assemble the genome.
后来我们发表论文确认这是人类女性骸骨，并列出可能解释其外形的基因突变。但UFO界因此憎恨我，因为我证实这不是外星婴儿。不过你展示的那张照片当时是全球头条，有媒体标题直接写《斯坦福科学家测序外星婴儿》。
And then we published a paper which said it's human. It was a female, and here are some mutations that it might that might explain what it looked like. They did have some mutations in in gene. And then the UFO community hated me because I had disproven that as not being a baby, not being an alien. But, of course, that picture that you showed, I mean, it was worldwide news, and literally the title of one of the thing is Stanford scientist sequences alien baby.
但这份论文经受住了时间考验。尽管有人污蔑我是中情局卧底、收钱办事，但至今无人能否定我的发现。
And so, you know and so but the paper stands the test of time. Nobody's disproven what it is that I showed despite the fact that some people want to say that I was a CIA plant and I was paid off by the CIA, etcetera.
当然。
Of course.
这件事无意间向科学界发出了信号——原来早有科学家在秘密协助政府分析UAP（不明空中现象）。电影上映约一个月后，中情局和航天公司代表突然登门，说要和我谈谈。他们希望我协助调查多名声称受不明现象伤害的军政人员。
But what what that had done was that I didn't realize, but I'd kind of hoped, was that it sent up a flag to a scientific community that already existed that I wasn't aware of of scientists who were deeply involved with the government in the analysis of UAP that I wasn't privy to. And so literally about a month after the the the movie came out about that thing, I got a knock at my door, and it was representative of the CIA and an aerospace company unannounced. And they said, we wanna talk to you. And they wanted my help with a number of military and diplomatic personnel who'd been, they claimed, harmed by things. They'd either heard stuff, etcetera.
简而言之，我查阅的约100份医疗记录中，多数人后来成为首批哈瓦那综合征患者。他们当时就在我办公室展示了MRI和X光片，脑部损伤证据确凿——这不是主观叙述，而是可复现的医学证据。
And long story short, the majority of the 100 or so people that I had privy to their medical records ended up being the first of the Havana syndrome patients. Ah. They'd heard things in their head, etcetera. But what they had done was they had shown me the data literally that day in my office. They brought out the MRIs.
他们出示的脑部X光片和损伤证据非常清晰。这不是单纯的数据，而是确凿的伤害证明。
They brought out the X rays and the damage in the brain, etcetera. It was clear. I mean, it wasn't it was not just data. It was evidence that something had happened. It wasn't somebody's story.
这些可重复验证的证据花了我们三四年才破解。当哈瓦那事件发生时，我们发现这批患者的症状完全匹配。好消息是这90多名患者终于能被国安系统接纳——现在国防部设有异常健康事件上报网站，受害者可通过退伍军人事务部寻求医疗援助，而不再被拒之门外。
It was evidence that was repeatable. And so that took us about three or four years to figure out what they were, and it was at about the time that actually the Havana events were occurring that we realized that all the symptoms of what it is that we were seeing in this group of patients were matching what it was that the Havana Syndrome individuals had. So in a way, that was good because that meant that those 90 or so patients who matched, we could hand over to the national security people, and, you know, it became a real thing. And now there's, like, a DOD website that has anomalous health incidents where people can come forward and report the stuff that they've got, and here's the ways you can use the Veterans Administration to seek medical help. Whereas previously, they'd been shooed away as we don't wanna hear about this.
他们认为这是什么？
What do they think it is?
这是某种能量武器，可能是微波或其他能量或伽马能量武器。这听起来还行，虽然有点疯狂，但没人会承认或否认我们具备这种能力。基本上，如果你拆掉微波炉前盖，打开它并把脸凑近，就会被灼伤。所以这只是将微波或声波定向作用于特定个体的方式。
It's an energy weapon of some kind, a microwave or other energy or gamma energy weapon. And that sounds okay. That sounds crazy, except no one would admit or no one would deny that we have the capability to do it. It's basically if if you take the front off your microwave and turn it on and put your face near it, you'll get burned. So this is just a way to direct the microwaves or sound waves At specific individuals.
特定个体。而且而且
Individuals. And And
你认为这是实验性的吗？还是说...这些人是被特意选中的目标，因为他们具有某种对方想要利用的职能？
do do you think it was experimental or do no. So these are targeted people with specific intention to get those people because they had some function that they wanted to
他们想骚扰这些人，想让他们别碍事。
They wanted to annoy they wanted to get them out of their out of the way.
哦，因为他们在哈瓦那。
Oh, because they were in Havana.
因为他们当时在哈瓦那。但这种武器在全球都被使用过。至今我仍会收到军方人员的邮件，讲述他们的遭遇并附上医疗记录。现在他们知道我是可靠的求助对象，因为我知道该把他们引荐给内部哪些人。
Because they were in Havana. And but it's been used all over the world. You know, I still get emails from military personnel saying this and this and this happened to me. Here's my medical records. And so now I just I know they know that I'm a safe place to approach because then I know where to send them on the inside.
但有趣的是，当我们搁置这件事后——我曾为参议院情报委员会和众议院提供建议，多年前还就应对措施写过白皮书——剩下那10个没有哈瓦那综合症却有一系列其他问题的人中，有几个表示他们的症状始于接触所谓的不明飞行物。顺便说，我刚注意到你身后墙上有UFO图案。
But what was interesting was that once we had set that aside and I've advised the senate intelligence committee, and I've advised them the house on things. I wrote a white paper for them years ago on what I thought needed to be done. But what was interesting were the remaining 10 people who had you know, who didn't have Havana syndrome but had a series of other problems, and several of them had said that part of their problem was initiated because they'd come in contact with what they had claimed to be a UFO. By the way, I just noticed that you have a UFO on the wall behind you.
是啊，我们这儿到处都是。
Yeah. We're all in over here.
这让我结识了雅克·瓦利这类人物，你之前也采访过他
That so that got me introduced to what, you know, people like Jacques Vallee, who you've had on
这场演出，我太棒了
the show, I Great
这家伙。他太棒了。他成了我的导师，真正把我从迷茫中拉了出来。我本可能陷入20种不同的死胡同。他住在旧金山，我们会定期见面，现在依然如此。
guy. He Great. He became my mentor who essentially took me out of the wilderness. I could have gone down 20 different rabbit holes. And he lives in San Francisco, and we would meet regularly, and we still meet regularly.
他基本上给了我一个思考框架，这是我从20个——或者说100个YouTube视频里都绝对无法获得的，还把我引荐给合适的人。这最终让我结识了卢·埃利桑多。实际上在那篇纽约时报文章发表前两周，我就在水晶城俯瞰五角大楼的地方见到了卢，他给我看了即将公开的那些视频。那是我第一次见他。后来通过他们所有人，我又认识了戴夫·格鲁什和卡尔·内尔。
And he basically gave me a formulation of how to think about this, you know, that I never would have been able to get from 20 different, you know, or 100 YouTubes or what have you and introduce me to the right people. That eventually led me to meet Lou Elizondo. And I actually, two weeks before that article came out in the New York Times, met Lou in Crystal City overlooking the Pentagon, and he showed me the videos that were about to come out. And that was my first time that I had met him. And then through all of them, I met Dave Grush and Carl Nell.
我和戴夫保持定期联系，我想提前声明——希望特朗普政府能认识到戴维能带来的价值，授予他一定的职权，不一定是决策权，而是让他能把关键信息传递给正确的人。因为我认为这里存在巨大的商业价值被忽视了，不仅仅是‘我们是否孤独’这类问题。想象一个比我们先进百万年的文明，他们的技术革命能让这些物体在大气层中自主移动或机动——如果我们能从中获取哪怕最微末的理解，会如何改变我们的文明？硅，一粒沙子，造就了今天的我们。此刻我周围的一切都运行在硅之上。
And Dave and I are in regular contact, and I'm you know, I mean, I just wanna say upfront, I hope that the Trump administration understands the value of what David can bring to them and put him in a position of authority that gives him not the ability necessarily to make decisions, but to give the necessary information to the right people. Because I think there's great commercial value here that is being missed, not just the are we alone, etcetera. I think there's extraordinary commercial value. I mean, imagine a civilization that's a million years ahead of us. How many technology revolutions allow these objects to move as we clearly see something motivating itself or maneuvering around the atmosphere.
对吧？所以如果我们能从那个文明顶端刮取最微小的理解，会如何改变我们自己的文明？我是说，硅，一粒沙子，造就了今天的我们。此刻我周围的一切都运行在硅之上。对吧？
Right. So if we could scrape just the tiniest bit of understanding off of the top of that, what would that do to change our own civilization? I mean, silicon, a grain of sand, makes us who we are today. Everything that is that's around me right here is all run off of silicon. Right?
我是说，计算。但想象一下还有其他发明，还有其他操纵现实的方式，我们尚未意识到，因为我们的物理学还没发展到那一步。如果我们能理解这一点，政府可能会说，好吧，我们需要对此保密以防武器化，或者我们不想扰乱能源生产等等。这没问题。但也许保密过度了，或许其中某些方面可能被利用。
I mean, compute. But imagine that there's other inventions, other ways of manipulating reality that we don't appreciate yet because our physics just isn't there yet. If we can understand that so the government might say, well, we need to keep this behind closed doors for weaponization or we don't wanna disrupt energy production or what have you. That's fine. But maybe there's too much secrecy, and then maybe that there's an aspect of that that could be taken advantage of.
所以卡尔·内尔和我对此有过积极的争论，关于保密还是公开并非非黑即白。或许存在一个中间领域，通过公私合作的机会，实际上卡尔现在已部分采纳了这个观点——或许企业或投资机构可以站出来，以期权方式投入资金，资助那些具备适当保密权限的公共科学家在幕后进行研究，从而推动社会再次进步。
So Carl Nell and I gotten in, you know, positive arguments about this, about that, well, it's not black and white that we keep something secret or we put it into the public domain. Maybe there's a middle domain where you have a public private partnership opportunity, and, actually, that's now Carl has now adopted this, at least in part, that maybe companies come to the fore or investment form places come to the fore where they will put money in as options to fund, let's say, public scientists to come in behind the scenes with the right levels of clearances to study stuff that would propel society forward again.
但这基于两个假设。第一，我们确实已经回收了这些东西。
But this is assuming two things. One, that we have actually recovered these things.
对。
Right.
第二是它来自某个比我们现今先进得多的外星社会。嗯。这可能并不正确。它未必来自外星，也许就来自地球某个地方。
And then another one is that it's from a society from somewhere else Mhmm. That's far more advanced than we are today Right. Which might not be correct. It might not be that it's from somewhere else. It might be that it's from somewhere here
嗯。
Mhmm.
或者是我们无法触及的维度。对，对吧？是的，这一切的前提是假设这些事都是真实的。
Or a dimension that we don't have access to. Right. Right? Yeah. This is assuming that all this stuff is real.
没错。但当你谈论政府和技术逆向工程时，主流观点认为——关键争议在于：他们回收了这些东西，现在这些东西掌握在国防承包商手里，存在资金挪用和欺骗国会的行为，而且永远会保密，因为一旦公开，所有人都会坐牢并面临诉讼。对，是吧？
Right. But when you're talking about the government and back engineering of things, like so the big argument this is the narrative. The big argument has been that they have recovered these things and that these things are now in the hands of defense contractors and that there's been a misappropriation of funds lying to congress, and it's always gonna stay secret because if it didn't, everybody would go to jail and everyone would get sued. Yeah. Right?
这公平吗？
Is that fair?
是啊，这很公平。不过我觉得大赦可能是解决办法之一。
Yeah. I mean, that's fair. I mean, I but I would say amnesty would be one way to.
你参与过《揭秘时代》纪录片吗？
This is were you were were you in the age of disclosure documentary?
短暂参与过。是的。
Briefly. Yes.
好。我觉得那部纪录片非常棒。
Yeah. Okay. Which I thought was very good.
非常棒。
Very good.
我等不及想看成品了。我一直在问别人：怎么才能看到？但还不知道渠道，现在还没上映呢。
And I can't wait for that to come out. I've been talking to people. How can I see it? I don't know how you can see it. It's not out yet.
是啊，而且我不知道为什么。不管是谁，去Netflix看看吧。嘿，泰德，去买那个。
Yeah. And I don't know why. Whoever it is, go Netflix. Yo, Ted. Go buy that.
真的很棒。
It's really good.
没错，确实很棒。
Yeah. Exactly. It's really good.
这是一个
It's a
精彩的节目。我是说，对啊。里面还有好几位政府官员，我想我发过一些视频给你们，基本上都是他们主动站出来的。比如我们现任国务卿马可·卢比奥，你看到了吧，他也在里面。
great show. I mean Yeah. And it has a number of officials, and I think I sent you guys some of the videos basically coming forward. I mean, you know, Marco Rubio, our current secretary of state. I mean, you saw He's in it.
对，他出场了大概十分钟左右。嗯，讲了些惊人的事情。还有参议员朗兹，你知道的，随便举几个例子。最近还有图尔西·加巴德，是的。
Yeah. He's in it, like, for, like, ten minutes Mhmm. Saying some remarkable things. You know, senator Rounds, you know, you name it. More recently, Tulsi Gabbard Yes.
她公开表示，嗯，有些事情正在发生。
Coming out and saying, well, there's something going on.
我觉得最引人入胜的部分之一是哈尔·普托夫对布什政府时期事件的描述——我说的是赫伯特·沃克·布什执政期间。
I think one of the most fascinating things is Hal Putoff's depictions of descriptions rather of what happened during the Bush administration. Herbert Walker Bush.
没错。
Right.
大概在1990年，他们找到哈尔·普托夫和其他一些专家说，我们需要你们——嗯——为公开的所有利弊给出一个数值评估，因为...嗯...我们从某处获得了这些飞行器，我们认为它们不属于这个世界，也不是我们制造的。现在我们在考虑是否要让公众知晓。对。
So in I believe it was 1990, they came to Hal Putoff and a bunch of other experts and said, we would like you to we want a numerical value placed on all the positives and the negatives of disclosure because Mhmm. We have require we have acquired these crafts from somewhere else. We believe they're not of this world, and we have not made them. And we're talking about letting the general public know. Right.
尽管他们绝大多数人认为积极面远不及消极面。没错。消极面包括银行业、宗教、政府。对。社会结构。如果我们知道自己并不孤单，一切都会分崩离析。
And while they overwhelmingly said that the positives were dwarfed by the negatives. Right. The negatives being banking, religion, government Right. Societal structure. Everything would fall apart if we knew we weren't alone.
我们不仅不孤单，而且存在某种比我们先进无数倍的事物。嗯。甚至可能是我们最初存在于此的原因，这正是事情变得极其诡异的地方。
Not only are we not alone, but something is infinitely more sophisticated than us Mhmm. And might be responsible for us being here in the first place, which is that's where it gets super squirrelly.
对，对。你可以想象《以诺书》里的场景，而且有很多...我是说，我觉得它对人类反应的描述有点夸张。如今人们更担心的是养家糊口，而不是那些虚无缥缈或所谓的外星人。假设它们不会突然出现在你家附近的沃尔玛开始和你互动，我认为揭示我们并不孤单的事实反而更让我感到希望——毕竟现在有多少电视剧都在讲世界末日？
Right. Right. Well, you could imagine The book of Enoch, and there's a lot of I I mean, I I think it's a little bit overwrought as to what humanity's reaction will be. People are more worried today about putting food on the table than they would be about, you know, ethereal or supposed aliens. I mean, they would mostly, I think on on the assumption that they're not gonna basically show up at your local Walmart and start, you know, interacting with you, I think the the fact of revealing that we're not alone is actually more of a hopeful thing to me to because, you know, how many TV shows right now are about the apocalypse
没错。
Right.
有上千种末日版本。是啊。如果能知道有人成功跨越了末日不是很好吗？是的。知道我们不必集体走向悬崖？
Of a thousand different varieties. Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice to know that somebody got beyond it? Yes. That there's not a cliff that we all have to walk over?
对。如果真能如此，我们该如何避免坠崖？在我看来这才是有希望的结局。哈尔、埃里克和所有这些人都是好朋友。尽管哈尔说了很多积极的事，但就严守界限而言，他恐怕是我见过最守口如瓶的人。
Right. And if so, how do we not walk over the edge of the cliff? I mean, that to me is a is a hopeful outcome. Now Hal and Eric and all the people are all good friends. Hal is probably for all of the things that he says positively, is probably the tightest clam I've ever met in terms of making sure that he doesn't go over the the line.
是啊。他知道的太多了。这就是问题所在。他必须非常谨慎选择交谈对象和谈话内容。
Yeah. He knows too much. Yeah. That's the thing. He has to be very careful who he's talking to and what he says.
我真想用斯波克那招心灵融合术。我们...但这样就能获取所有信息了。
I like to mind meld him the Spock thing. We But find out all the information.
但正是像他、雅克、基特·格林等一群人，我和他们围坐会议桌好几年，每年两次。我环顾桌子时总想：这些人知道或声称知道的事情，我也想知道。嗯。眼前的机会如此难得，如果信息属实，为什么不能公之于众？所以与其和人争论，不如行动起来——这正是我创建Soul基金会的原因，这是个由学者组成的慈善团体。
But it's people like him and Jacques and Kit Green and a number of others, and I sat around a table with them for several years, like, every twice a year. And I looked around the table and thought, the things that these people know or claim to know, I wanna know. Mhmm. And the opportunity that's here, and why can't we get this information out if it's real? And so rather than arguing with people about the matter, that's, for instance, why I created the Soul Foundation, which is a charitable group of academics.
我和大卫·格鲁什、彼得·斯卡菲什共同创立。大卫后来因要履行政府职责不得不退出。实际上我们已连续三年举办研讨会，先在斯坦福，后在旧金山，下一届将在意大利。所以我得打个广告：Sol2025.org。
I started it with David Grush and Peter Skafish. David, of course, had to leave because he had governmental responsibilities he wanted to go take care of. And, actually, we've now had, for three years in a row, a symposium, first at Stanford, then at San Francisco, and the next one is now in Italy. So I'm gonna plug it. Sol2025.org.
你可以去看看，如果想去索尔索尔的话？0阳光下的小憩。
You can go look if you wanna go to solsol?0lasinthesun.
2025.org？点org。
2025.org?dotorg.
这样做的目的并非主张这些现象真实存在，而是为了创建一个学术讨论环境，让学者、专业人士或对此话题感兴趣的普通人能以专业方式交流。明白吗？就是交换想法，而非宣扬外星人存在或他们是爬虫族之类，而是探讨你提出的某些问题——伦理议题是什么？宗教议题又是什么？
And the purpose of that was not to advocate that any of this is real, but was to create an environment with win within which academics or professionals or just laypeople interested in the subject matter could come and talk about it in a very professional manner. Right? Just to bounce around ideas, not to advocate for, you know, they're here or they're reptilians or they're this or they're that, but to like, some of the things you raised. What are the ethical issues? What are the religious issues?
我们已发布多份白皮书。例如，曾邀请天主教会高层撰写关于天主教与宗教议题的论文。顾问委员会成员蒂莫西·加拉德特讨论过USO（不明潜水物）及相关问题。我们还探讨了近太空议题，彼得正在主导一项关于体验现象的研究。
So we have put out a number of white papers. For instance, where we had a member of the Catholic hierarchy write a paper on the issues related to Catholicism and religion. We've had Timothy Gallaudet, who's actually on our advisory committee, talk about USOs and the those issues. We've talked about near space issues. Peter is running a study on experiences.
并非认定这些体验必然真实，而是研究那些自称经历者需要考虑的社会心理因素。英国有个叫'Unhidden'的团体，由专业精神科医生组成，他们认为：无论现象真实与否，相关创伤确实存在。公众和精神科医生应遵循哪些指导原则？
Not that the experiences are necessarily real, but what are the what are the kinds of psychosocial matters that need to be considered for people who say that they've this has happened to them. So there's a group in The UK called Unhidden, which is basically a bunch of psychiatrists, a group of professional psychiatrists who say, okay. Well, there's a trauma associated with this. Whether it's real or not, we don't know. But what are the kinds of rules that we should or provisions that we should provide to the public and to psychiatrists?
所以当患者在治疗中陈述这类经历时，医生不该立即开抗癔症或精神分裂药物。
So when somebody shows up at your doorstep, you know, in therapy and says this, you don't you you shouldn't immediately reach for the, you know, the the anti hysteria or schizophrenia drugs.
对，确实。
Right. Right.
我很幸运，曾有段时间我们的邻居是斯坦福精神病学系主任。有次去她家吃饭，她问我职业时——
You know, I was lucky enough in my neighborhood, our next door neighbor who moved in for a while was the chair of psychiatry at Stanford. And so we go over to have dinner with her and her husband. And, you know, like, one of the first things that she says, hey. What do you do? Blah blah blah.
我提到UFO话题时，她突然向后靠在了椅背上。
And I happened to mention the UFO thing, and she just sort of, like, sat back in her seat.
好吧，哦，你可能是个怪人。
Okay. Oh, you might be a kook.
好的。不过大概花了一年左右时间，她才最终意识到我并非如此。而我当时是以非常科学的方式处理这件事的。我对所面对的事物有自己的信念，认为这其中存在某种现实基础。但这与我作为科学家的身份是分开的——后者要求我若要科学地讨论此事，就必须明确需要证实或证伪的内容。这促使我开始研究雅克·瓦莱带给我的材料，包括某些金属和其他物品，这些都有证据链表明它们曾出现在不明航空现象或UFO着陆现场。
Okay. And but it wasn't but it took, you know, a year or so until she finally realized that I wasn't, and then I was approaching this from a very scientific manner. I had my beliefs as to what I think it is that I'm dealing with and that there is some sort of reality to this. But that's separate than the scientist in me that says, well, if I wanna talk about this scientifically, here are the things that I need to prove or disprove. So that has led, for instance, to my production or study of materials that Jacques Vallee had brought to me, some metals and other things that had chains of evidence associated with them being at some UAP or UFO landing.
有趣的是，其中一些金属非常特殊：超高纯度硅、异常的镁比例、错误的同位素比率等等。这虽不能证明什么，但足以说明它们是人工制造的。再加上医学证据，这些就是我能够进行的基于现实的测试，可以向同事展示并说：这里存在数据和证据。
And so interestingly, some of these metals are very unusual. Super high purity silicon, strange magnesium ratios, the the isotope ratios are wrong, etcetera. Now that's not proof of anything, but it's proof that somebody engineered them. So it's that plus the medical. Those are the kinds of reality based tests that I can do to provide to my colleagues to say, here is data and evidence.
证据不等于任何事物的证明。就像法庭上的证据，只是提交给陪审团的信息。但我更进一步——我意识到：
Evidence isn't proof of evidence of anything. Evidence, like in a court of law, is just evidence that you provide to the jury of peers. Right. Right? So but I sort of have gone a step further, and that is I'm like, okay.
假设我们获得了某种先进材料，如何证明它是由高等智慧制造的？很可能其原子排列方式会比我们最先进的芯片更精密。如何验证这点？需要原子级成像设备来定位原子位置、分析键合结构——这些都是可测量的，结果也能被他人验证真伪。
Well, if these things are let's say we get some advanced material, how do I prove that this advanced material was made by some superior intellect? Well, probably the atomic positioning of how the material is made is gonna be more advanced than even our most advanced computer chip. So how do you determine that? Well, you need some sort of atomic imager that might tell you where the positions of the atoms are and what the bond structures are that you say, well, that's something I can measure, and I can have it I can give those results to somebody else, and they can say, yes. It's right or it's not.
至少我能断言：就我所知，人类无法制造这种东西。为此我创立了一家公司，为研发新型原子成像技术筹集资金。目前项目已启动，资金到位，设备正在建造中。这项技术无论对UAP材料研究是否适用，其在纳米材料、超材料及政府生物合金等领域的应用价值都毋庸置疑。
But it at least I can say, no human, at least, that I know of could make this. So I started a company that I've raised money for with this new idea that I have for how to make an atomic imager, and we're doing it. And so, you know, we've raised the money. We're building it already, and I know it will work. So when I have it, whether or not it's useful for looking at UAP materials is almost immaterial because I know what how useful it will be for the nanomaterials, the metamaterials, the alloys that the government, etcetera, uses for biology, etcetera.
与其预测蛋白质结构、DNA或染色体臂形态，我将能直接读取它们的结构。
So rather than predicting what a protein structure or a DNA or a chromosome arm looks like, I'll be able to read its structure directly.
我想回到您提到的10名没有瓦纳综合征、但遭遇UAP事件相关伤害的人。他们具体什么情况？体内有植入物还是...
I I wanna bring you back to the you said it was 10 people that didn't have a Vanna syndrome that they had some sort of an injury that was associated with the UAP event. Mhmm. What was their thing? Did they have an implant, or was there
不。部分人患有脑白质病变——像是暴露于某种物质所致。比如多发性硬化症患者的MRI脑部扫描会显示代表坏死组织的白色区域。这些人有类似症状。其中一人声称在后院目击某物，用手电照射时立即遭到电击。照片显示其后颈出现巨大肿块、瘀伤和疤痕——这种伤痕绝非普通火焰或焊枪所能造成。
a No. Some of them had, like they had what you would call white matter disease in their brain, like they had been exposed to something. So white matter disease, if if you have, for instance, multiple sclerosis and you look in the brain with MRI, you'll see these white areas which are basically dead tissue, scar tissue. They had things like that. One person one of the pictures that I had was that they had claimed to have seen something in their backyard.
问题在于这类事件不可复现，都是孤立个案。我们显然不能将人置于可能诱发此类事件的危险境地。因此某种程度上...
They shone a flashlight at it, And the moment they did, they got zapped. And then you see the picture of the guy in in the back of it back of his neck, this huge welt and a bruising and a scarring that could there there's there's no reasonable way you could have gotten something like that just by exposing yourself to a flame as a for instance or a blowtorch. And so it's these kinds of events that and the unfortunate issue with these is that they're not repeatable. They're one off anecdotes. Right.
（语句未完成）
You and you certainly can't put a person in a place where they become bait for these kinds of events to occur. And so you're sort of Some
人们会自愿去做那种事，
people would volunteer for that,
不过。也许会有人愿意。
though. Somebody might.
是啊。去接受电击。你知道
Yeah. Go get zapped. Do you know about
特拉维斯·沃尔顿的故事吗？对吧？非常了解。是的。
the Travis Walton story? Right? Very much. Yeah.
没错。你对那个故事怎么看？
Yeah. What did you what do you think of that?
要知道，这么多年他一直坚持自己的说法。
You know, he's kept to his story over all of the years.
这正是令人困惑的地方。
That's what's so confusing.
是啊。我是说，他没有理由撒谎。我不认为他从中获利了。我觉得这很吸引人。你懂吧？
Yeah. I mean, he's had no reason. I I don't know that he's profited off of it. He you know, I find it fascinating. You know?
但确实。那些怀疑论者——我更愿称他们为伪怀疑论者——就是抓住这类事件不可复现的特点，用这些孤例来贬低整个...这个概念。听起来很荒谬。
But it's Yeah. It's it's it's the irreproducibility of the events that the skeptics I call them more pseudosceptics. They're pseudists like nudists. They're pseudists that use these one offnesses of these events to disparage the entire, you know, idea of it. It sounds ridiculous.
当然听起来荒谬，因为你在谈论的是超出
Well, of course, it sounds ridiculous because you're talking about something that is outside
会电击人的宇宙飞船。是啊，太荒谬了。
spaceship that zaps people. Yeah. It's ridiculous.
而且我不认为特拉维斯会主张他是故意受伤的。对吧。我是说，如果你走过停机坪，被喷气发动机的气流卷进去，肯定会受伤的。对吧。你明白吗？
It and and I don't think that even he would propose, Travis, that he was purposefully hurt. Right. I mean, if you walk across an airfield and get in the plume of a jet engine, you're gonna get hurt. Right. You know?
没错。而他的说法是他被带上飞船接受治疗。对。说是在那次事件中他遭遇了某些事。但最离奇的是卡车里其他目击者都通过了测谎仪检测。
Yeah. And his story is that he was taken aboard to heal him. Yeah. That there was something something happened to him during that event. And but the crazy part is that all the other people that are in the truck, they witnessed it, and then they passed polygraph examinations.
确实。
Right.
他们被分开问讯时也独立陈述了相同经过。五天后特拉维斯·沃尔顿穿着同一套衣服出现了
They also told the same story independently when they took them and separated them. And then Travis Walton shows up five days later with the same clothes on
没错。
Right.
带着这个荒诞的故事。
With this crazy story.
对。所以当人们说没有证据或证据在哪时，我首先会问：你读过相关书籍吗？哪怕花过一分钟了解吗？比如罗伯特·鲍威尔和迈克尔·索尔兹的《UFO与政府》，这书并非主张这些事真实存在，只是记录几十年来的事件经过。
Right. You know, so when people say that, you know, there's no evidence or where's the evidence, my first question to them is, well, what have you have you read any books about any of this? Do you have you spent even a moment looking into it? And, you know, I would point them at books like by Robert Powell and Michael Swords, UFOs and Government, which is not a a proposal that any of this is real. It's just the story of these events over decades.
类似这样的书籍有几十本，都记载了数据和证据。如何解读取决于个人偏见。证据是充足的。但如果有人没研究过就妄下论断，那他们更像神职人员而非科学工作者。
And so there's there's books like that, dozens of them, that tell the story of data and evidence. How you contextualize it is, you know, up to your personal biases, let's say. But there's plenty of evidence. But if people haven't looked into it, if they have an opinion about it and they haven't looked into it, they're more like priests than they are scientists.
是啊。而且公众普遍认为UFO等于怪人。对吧。你就是个怪人。
Yeah. That's it's also the public. The general public narrative is UFO equals kook. Right. You're a kook.
你相信那个？太荒谬了。嗯。
You believe in that? That's ridiculous. Mhmm.
那太荒谬了。而且我什么都不信。我只相信数据和证据，而证据不足，我无法告诉同事这是真的。对吧。
That's ridiculous. And and I don't believe in anything. I believe in the data and the evidence and and the evidence. There's not enough evidence for me to tell a colleague of mine it's real. Right.
但有足够的证据让我认为这是个值得解答的问题。所以当你
But there's enough evidence for me to say there's a question worth answering. So when you
谈到镁和那些合金时，具体是什么问题让你不认为它们是由美国或其他地方的标准合金工厂制造的？
were talking about magnesium and these whatever these alloys are, what is specifically wrong with them that you don't think that it was manufactured by, like, a standard sort of a alloy plant in The United States or somewhere else.
对。所以我说的硅来自巴西乌巴图巴的一个事件，有趣的是，另一块似乎是镁，但两者的纯度在1950年代末期都是不寻常的。我对一块硅进行了原子级映射，纯度达到99.999%。其中一块的镁比例与地球常态一致，这些可以说是杂质。
Right. So the so the silicon that I'm talking about is from an event in Ubatuba, Brazil, which interestingly there's another piece of it that appears to have been magnesium, but both of them are of a purity that is unusual for the day in the '9 late nineteen fifties. So the magnesium and I did an atomic mapping of mine piece of silicon down to a level of where it's like 99.999% silicon. And so one piece of it had magnesium ratios that were earth normal. And these are these were impurities, let's say.
另一块的镁比例远偏离地球常态。例如，地球上任何地方，镁同位素24、25、26的比例大约是80%、11%、9%左右。太阳系内任何地方都应大致如此，这与恒星演化有关。但我们得到的比例却异常偏离。
The other piece were way off earth normal. So for instance, anywhere on earth, if you look at the ratios of what the three magnesium isotopes are, 24, 25, 26, it should be like 80%, 11%, 9%, more or less. And anywhere in our solar system, that's more or less what the values should be of the ratios. And that has to do with stellar evolution and how, you know, radioactive compounds might decompose to whatever. But we got this we got this ratio that was just way, way off.
偶然间，我遇到斯坦福的一位博士后。他和一位研究生，都是应用物理专业的，对UAP感兴趣。我给他们看了这些比例，问他们怎么看。他们研究了异常比例后说，让我们计算一下。
So by luck, I came across a a postdoc at Stanford. And he and a graduate student, they're both in applied physics, who are interested in UAP. And I said, I've got these ratios. What do you think it means? And so they looked so they looked at the ratios and the the weird one, and they said, well, let me let's do some calculations.
结果发现，如果我们对正常镁比例施加中子源，持续九百年，强度相当于每几秒一颗原子弹，就能得到我们观察到的比例。这数据才两周新，但计算是数学上成立的。
And so it turns out that the ratios that we have could have been generated from normal magnesium ratios if you expose normal magnesium ratios to a neutron source for nine hundred years at the level of an atomic bomb every few seconds. Okay? So so you they yeah. Wow. So so it's like I'm looking and this this data is literally two weeks old, but the calculations are are are math.
所以你会想，好吧。要在三个指标上准确匹配这个数字的概率很低，委婉地说。但这样的中子源暴露意味着某些有趣的事。这并不证明什么，只说明结果在数学和物质上是真实的。
So you're like, okay. Well, where and how you know, the the chance of getting that number correct on three things is low, you know, to put mildly. But to say that you had exposed these things to that kind of a neutron source means something interesting. Right? So, again, it doesn't prove anything other than that the result is mathematically and materially true.
这意味着什么？对我这样痴迷非常规数据的科学家来说，这就像猫薄荷。我忍不住想了解更多。
So what does it what does it mean? Again, it's just it just for a scientist like me who loves data off the curve, it's catnip. I can't help myself but want to know and understand more about it.
是的。我是说，就像你提到的镁同位素比例问题。有没有质疑者对此提出过任何解释，说明为何会发现这种比例？
Yeah. I mean, just what you said is what you said about the magnesium ratios. Like, that's has there ever been any debunkers that have some sort of a an explanation for why you would find that?
没有。我是说他们...
No. I mean Do they
认为你的测量有误吗？
think that your measurements are off?
理论上，你可以通过提纯每种同位素并按比例预先混合来人为制造这个比例。但为何要在1950年代末将其引爆在墨西哥乌班图的海滩上空，然后让它躺在阿根廷博物馆五十年，直到雅克·瓦莱最终取回一块碎片，带到斯坦福大学工程系的仪器上让我测量？
Well, I mean, the only way I mean, you could create that ratio artificially by purifying each of those isotopes and then premixing them to that ratio. But why you would blow it up over a beach in Ubuntu, Mexico in the late nineteen fifties and then let it sit in a museum in Argentina for fifty years until Jacques Vallee ended up going and grabbing a piece of it and bringing it to me to measure on an instrument in the engineering department at Stanford.
为什么？当时技术上能做到吗？这可行吗？
Why? Could you do it physically back then? Would that be possible?
会非常困难。极其困难。技术上可行。但在1950年代末，我们还在忙着分离铀同位素制造更多核弹。说真的。
Would have been very hard. It would have been very, very hard. You could. But in the late nineteen fifties, we were still busy trying to isolate and separate uranium isotopes for making more bombs. I mean, let's let's be serious.
人类分离同位素为了什么？制造炸弹或做健康相关的标记研究——后者直到六七十年代才兴起。
What do humans separate isotopes for? To make bombs or to do health related tagging, which is really only something that came to the fore in the sixties and seventies.
而这个事件比那还要早十年。
And this predates that by a decade.
确实更早。所以很不寻常。虽然可能。嗯。但就像所有这类事情，比如为什么从该事件获得的碎片中，镁的纯度竟达到当时只有陶氏化学才能生产的水平。
This predates it. So it's it's unusual. It's possible. Mhmm. But, I I mean, again, with any of these things, why why, for instance, would one of the supposed pieces that came from that event of be magnesium at a level of purity that only Dow Chemical at the time had the ability to create.
这个地点还发现了什么？关于这个地点有什么背景故事？
Now what else was at this site, and what is the story behind this site?
一位渔民看到这个发光的物体似乎释放了什么东西然后爆炸，他捡起了它的碎片。有证据链显示它如何被送到巴西的一家报纸或南美洲的某个博物馆等等，不同的人在不同时期进行了各种研究。令我惊讶的是，我手中的那块是硅，而传说中它应该是镁。所以我一直与那些认为它是镁的人保持联系，并告诉他们，你看，你的结果并不否定我的，只是说明可能存在不同的东西。
A fisherman sees this glowing object that kind of released something which then exploded, and he picked up pieces of it. And there's some chains of evidence of how it got to either a newspaper in Brazil or to this South American museum, etcetera, and different studies have been done by different people over time. And the the surprise to me was that the piece that I had was silicon, whereas the lore was that that it was magnesium. So I've been in contact with the people who talk about it as being magnesium and saying, well, it's you know, your results don't dispute mine. It just says that maybe there was something different.
是那个人吗？
Is that him there?
特拉维斯·沃尔顿？
Travis Walton?
那是特拉维斯？
That's Travis?
对，那是特拉维斯。特拉维斯摇头娃娃。他送我的。很酷吧。
Yeah. That's Travis. Travis Bobblehead. He gave me this. Cool.
所以，
So,
你知道，我…我不确定这意味着什么。我可能是最早发表关于爱荷华州康瑟尔布拉夫斯一起UAP事件材料同行评议论文的人之一。当时有个物体被看到在旋转，灯光闪烁等等，似乎有东西从物体上掉落。警察也看到了。
you know, I I don't I don't know what it means. I mean, I I published probably one of the first peer review papers on a UAP material from an event in Council Bluffs, Iowa. And the event was an object is seen rotating, lights flashing, etcetera. Something appears to drop from the object. The police saw it.
七十年代还有其他几组人目击了这件事。他们都聚集到现场，那是在二月左右，冬天。田野中央有一大堆熔化的金属，大概有三四十磅重。人们也试图解释这个现象。
Other several other groups saw it in the nineteen seventies. They all converged on the locale, and this was, like, in February or something. It was winter. And there was this big pile of molten metal in the middle of this field, probably thirty, forty pounds of it. And people tried to explain it away as well.
有人说是一架直升机载着巨大的熔融金属罐，但你要计算需要多大的容器才能携带这种类型的熔融金属。我用实验室发明的一种叫多重离子束成像的设备分析了它，这是一种二次离子质谱技术。原理是用离子束轰击物体，就像喷砂一样，它会使目标材料离子化，然后你可以测量被轰击下来的物质的质量。我们发现同位素比例没什么异常，但金属混合物在样本的不同位置成分不同。
A helicopter had a giant vat of molten metal, and then you calculate how far and how big a container you would have to have to carry molten metal of this type. And so I analyzed it and with a a device that we invented in my lab actually called multiplex ion beam imaging, which is a kind of what's called secondary ion mass spec. Which what you do is you shoot a beam of ions at an object like a sandblaster. It ionizes the material on the target, and then you shoot off and measure the mass of the objects that you just sandblasted off. And so what we found was nothing unusual in terms of isotope ratios, except we found a mixture of metals that depending on where you looked in the sample was different.
比如这里可能是铁、钛和铬的某种比例，但在那边和这边比例又不同。这意味着这些物质不是完全预混合好的，不像奶昔那样均匀。它是部分混合的浆状物，有人决定把它丢在那里。
So it'd be like iron, titanium, and chromium of a certain ratio here, but a different ratio of those things over there and over here. So what that meant was that whatever this stuff was didn't come completely premixed. It wasn't like a a milkshake. Right. It was a slurry of partially mixed materials that somebody decided to drop off.
重申一次，这仅仅是数据。嗯哼。但我发表它的首要目的——这篇论文发表在《航空航天科学进展》上，经过同行评审——是想表明你不会因为发布这类内容被学术界排斥。只要你不妄下结论，只是陈述‘这是数据’即可。
So, again, this is just data. Uh-huh. But my purpose of publishing it was first and this was published in the Progress in Aerospace Sciences, peer reviewed. The purpose was to show you're not going to get thrown out of the academy for publishing this stuff. As long as you don't make crazy conclusions and you just say, here's the data.
向人们展示：只要在科学上谨慎把握尺度，这类研究是可以发表的。你需要在措辞上给自己留足体面的退路。这也促使我后来与戴夫等人共同创立了灵魂基金会（Mhmm），传递一个信号：只要足够谨慎，开展这类研究无可厚非。
To show people that you can publish this stuff as long as you're scientifically careful in how far you go. You leave yourself plenty of diplomatic exits in the verbiage that you use. And it was part of what then got me to start the Soul Foundation Mhmm. Along with Dave and others to say, look. It's okay to do this as long as you're careful.
正因如此，阿维·勒布才会追随我的脚步——他在自己的领域遭遇了类似的阻力。他仅仅是把问题摆上台面，并非断言其真实性，只是强调‘不能无视这个问题’。他怀有与我相同的义愤，这种情绪推动着我证明：你们没资格把这个问题踢出讨论范围。
And that's why people I mean, Avi Loeb came after me because he had kind of the same pushback from his community where all he was doing was saying, the question's on the table. I'm not saying it's true. It's just you can't push this off the table. So he had the same kind of righteous indignation that I have that propels me to say, well, I'm gonna show you why you can't take this off the table.
当他们发现这滩熔融金属时，由于它是多种物质的混合体且未充分融合，你们是否推测过任何个人/生物/存在体这样做的动机？比如通过加热特定金属混合物来提取某种物质，而这些残留只是副产品？（是的）像是...中途丢弃的废料？
So when they found this puddle of molten metal, and it's a bunch of different mixtures, so it seems like there's a bunch of different stuff that was there, and it wasn't perfectly mixed. Is there some sort of like, have you theorized some sort of a reason why they any person or any creature or any being would do that? Is there something that you would extract from that kind of metal, like heating it up to a certain degree and having a mixture of all these things, and this is just a byproduct Yeah. I think dropping off?
我认为这可能是某种加工过程的副产品——再次强调，只是‘可能’。或许是推进系统的残留物，也可能是它们产生动力场装置的组成部分。记住，这些都只是推测。
I think it's a byproduct of some process that might, again, might might might Might might might extract. It might be part of a propellant system. It might be part of the way that they generate the fields that allow these things to move. Again, these are all mites. Speculation.
但就像当你遇到无法理解的事物时，必须保持完全开放的心态。说真的，搞不好它们只是在冲马桶呢。（笑）天啊...确实。
But it's like when you see something and do something that you don't understand what it is, you have to be fully open. I mean, for all I know, they're flushing the toilet. Right? Oh, boy. Yeah.
噁...但那可是金属排泄物。不过——我持有警方提供的原始宝丽来照片，可以证实其真实性。有人声称这只是铝热剂...
Ew. But They got metal poop. So but but, you know, I have the original Polaroids from the police department of it. So, you know, it was real. And people have said, oh, it was thermite.
如果是铝热剂，现场就该有氧化铝残留懂吗？所谓铝热剂是指...
Well, if it were thermite, there'd be there'd be aluminum oxide. You know? Thermite meaning that's how
金属被熔化了
it was melted
熔化后的痕迹，被说成是孩子们的恶作剧之类的，整件事被当成个大笑话。
was melted down, and it's just some kids playing around, etcetera, and it was a it was a big joke.
那些玩铝热剂的古怪孩子们。
Wacky kids with their thermite.
用他们的铝热剂。你知道吗？但分析结果显示样本中根本不存在氢氧化铝或氧化铝——我是说我有检测报告，确实不存在这些成分。
With their thermite. You know? But it turns out there's no aluminum hydroxide or oxide, I should say, in the sample. I mean, I I have the analysis. It's just not there.
所以只能是极端高温造成的。
So it had to have been extreme heat.
必须是某种能产生极端高温的东西。而且那个物体当时在空中悬停了一会儿，所以不可能是飞机。现场也没有直升机——至少没有闪着灯的直升机。现在还有大块的残留物存在。
It had to have been extreme heat of some kind that would produce it. And, you know, whatever it was was hovering for a moment, so it wasn't an airplane. And there was no helicopters, at least no helicopters with flashing lights. And, you know, I've got there's been huge chunks of it still exist.
这种物质的量级...要熔化它所需的熔炉规模将极其庞大。
And the amount of this stuff, the kind of cauldron that would have to exist in order to melt this would be immense.
确实庞大。七十年代就有人估算过所需能量，当时人们说可能是陨石。但不对——我们通过数学计算证明了...
It was immense. Yeah. So people back in the seventies already sort of made estimates of what was required, and people said, oh, it's a meteorite. Well, no. We we basically showed mathematically how you know?
首先陨石撞击地面会形成坑洞，它们不会熔化，而且会产生爆炸。
First of all, meteorites make holes when they hit the ground. They don't melt when they hit the ground, and they make explosions.
还有其他类似事件的记录吗？
Are there similar instances of something along this line?
有好几起。最有趣的是全球各地都有关于这些物体掉落熔融金属的报告。我手头就有另外两例——澳大利亚某地和另一个保密地区（据称真实发生过）的熔融金属坠落事件。
Several. Really? That's what's so interesting is that worldwide, there are multiple reports of molten metals that get dropped off of these objects. And I have actually two other ones of a molten metal that was dropped off of one case in Australia and another in another area. I'm not allowed to say, but it was one actually happened supposedly.
我得再联系弗雷斯诺那个目击者——也许他正在听——他说有东西坠落，熔化的金属在他家沥青车道上形成一滩，他亲眼看见了那个物体。
I've gotta find the guy again in Fresno. Maybe he's listening. That he said stuff dropped, and he has, you know, molten metal that land in a puddle in his in the asphalt of his of his driveway, and he saw this object.
所以他只是紧紧抓住不放
So and and He's just holding on
抓住它？他正抓着它。他联系了我，当时我刚开始涉足这个领域，但这类例子比比皆是。有趣的是，其他几个样本只是铝制的，而我手上这个是铁质的。
to it? He's holding on to it. He reached out to me, and I and, you know, we're still at a time when I was just kinda getting into this area, but there's many, many examples of this kind of thing. So but interestingly, several of these other ones are just aluminum. The one that I have is iron or whatever.
这说明了什么？是否意味着存在不同的目标实现方式？无论是丢弃不再需要的物品，还是因为某些阻碍需要清除，总归是要处理掉什么。
So does what does that tell me? Does that tell me there's different kinds of ways of accomplishing the goal? Whatever it is, they're either throwing something overboard or for you know, because they don't need it anymore or because maybe it's getting in the way of something and it's time to get rid of it.
你有没有咨询过真正的材料科学专家？在技术突飞猛进的背景下，他们是否推测过这可能是什么？
Have you brought in anyone who's, like, a real expert in material sciences to that would, like, theorize, like, given an immense increase in technology and what, like, what potentially do you think this could be?
参加这类节目的意义就在于获得专家见解。我之前找过斯坦福的教授们，他们总是敷衍了事，说'好的，我得走了'之类的话。
The purpose of being on shows like this is to have experts maybe give me an idea because the people I've been to at Stanford, you know, the other professors, they're like, okay. Yeah. I gotta go. Yeah. Yeah.
这可能会损害你的职业声誉，奇怪的是我们讨论的明明是具体可测量的实物数据。
It could be it could actually be detrimental to your career, and that's what's really weird about something when you're just talking about data, specifically in this case of an actual physical thing that anyone can measure.
没错。我手头有大量样本。最初的碎片有这么大，物主去年夏天又带到我的实验室来了。
Right. And I've got pieces of got plenty of it. You know? And the original pieces is, you know, is like this big that the owner of it had brought to my lab just last summer again.
像iMac电脑那么大
Big as an iMac.
对，确实。天啊，大得离谱。所以这到底是什么？
Yeah. Exactly. Oh, it's huge. Crazy. And and so what is it?
我多希望有人能告诉我这是普通物品，有个平淡无奇的解释。这样我就能继续研究其他项目。当初研究阿塔卡马木乃伊不是为了惹恼谁，而是因为它太引人注目了——明显是能吸引公众关注的东西。
I would love for somebody to tell me that it's conventional and has a purely prosaic answer. Because then I can go on to the next thing. The whole reason for getting that the Atacama mummy off the table was not because I wanted to annoy anybody. It was because it was spectacular. It's obviously something people would pay attention to.
所以如果是真的，我们就去做。如果不是，就把它从桌面上拿掉，因为通常藏在废墟下的东西才是最有趣的。
So if it's real, let's do it. If it's not, let's get it off the table because it's usually the stuff that's hidden under the rubble. That's the most interesting.
我对那具木乃伊的疑问不在于它是否是外星人，而是如果DNA检测显示它是人类，那它是否可能是与我们不同的人类种类？
My question about that mummy is not that it's an alien, but if it does register as human in in the DNA, is it potentially a different kind of human than us?
嗯，当然，她...她？我们曾请来一位研究南美土著人基因的专家，分析显示标准的全球不同种族群体中发现的基因突变，与智利阿塔卡马地区的完全吻合。所以她的父母、亲属显然是智利人。是的，我是说，这真的是...这真的是你能得出的全部结论了。
Well, certainly, she She? Had we brought in an expert in South American indigenous people genetics, and the analysis showed that the the genetic the standard genetic mutations that are found in different racial groups around the world matched exactly the Atacama region of Chile. So her parents, her relatives were clearly Chilean. So yeah. I mean, that's really all you can that's really all you can say.
如果有人想说她是外星人，那也没关系。我确信她的身份，也认为她应该得到妥善的安葬。
If someone wants to say that she's an alien, well, that's fine. I'm convinced of what she is and that she deserves a proper burial.
所以这只是基因异常？
And so it's just a genetic anomaly?
只是基因异常。
Just a genetic anomaly.
我知道你关注过那些三指木乃伊。是的。对此你有什么看法？
I do know that you've paid attention to the tridactyl mummies. Yep. What is your take on that?
你知道，我认为人们首先把很多不同的木乃伊混为一谈了。
So, you know, I think people have conflated a lot of the different mummies that are out there, first of all.
大概有...
There's, like
说得好。60具左右还是...
Good point. 60 of them or
某事。而且
something. And
可能数量不少，我不一定称它们为骗局。我会说它们是人为构建的，但属于古老的构建物。或许其中包含某种对祖先的致敬，无论它们究竟是什么。所以有些东西你一看就知道。
probably a fair number of them, I wouldn't necessarily call them hoaxes. I would say that they are constructed, but they're old constructs. So maybe there's some sort of homage paid Right. To the ancestors or something like that, whatever they are. So the the there are some ones that you clearly look at.
你会说，得了吧，这玩意儿根本不存在过。懂吗？
You go, oh, come on. Right. That never lived. You know?
然后还有那些胎儿姿势的。
That's Then there's the fetal position ones.
胎儿姿势的那些，体型巨大的那些。没错。最初我——要知道我一直乐于接受自己犯错——刚开始我觉得那些小型的可能不真实。但随着核磁共振图像陆续公布...
The fetal position ones, the big ones. Yeah. And I was at the beginning I was you know, I'm I'm always open to being wrong. Was I at the beginning thinking, oh, well, because of the small ones, those are probably not real. But then the MRIs started coming out.
是啊，全身核磁共振图像、韧带结构、骨骼构造、手指，最惊人的可能是上面明显非人类的指纹。这很有趣。但问题是，由于围绕它们形成了马戏团般的闹剧——这要归咎于那些制造噱头来推销电视节目的人——任何有声誉的科学家都不会靠近。我收到过无数次研究邀请。
Yeah. The full body MRIs and the the ligature and the bone construction and the finger and then perhaps most, I think, extraordinarily, the the the fingerprints on on them being clearly not human. So it's interesting. But here's the problem, is that because there's so much circus around them, unfortunately created by people who want a circus because it sells their TV shows, no scientist of any merit would go near it. So I was approached many times, many times to study them.
我的回应是：满足一个条件我就做。第一，提供所需资金（不是给我个人，是研究经费）；第二，不准电视拍摄；第三，在我完成反复验证并像处理奥塔卡马木乃伊那样，邀请更多领域专家交叉验证之前，不会对外发声。
And I said, I'll do it on one condition. Here's the money I need, not personally, but here's the money I need to do the kinds of analysis to accomplish this right. Second, there will be no TV cameras. And you won't hear from me again until I'm ready to talk because I'll have double checked and triple checked and quadruple checked the results, and then I've gone out as I do with the Otakama Mummy, bringing in further contiguous circles of experts to double check me.
不让它变成马戏表演。
And not make it a circus.
绝不让它变成马戏。具体哪个电视节目我就不点名了，他们想用摄像机跟踪拍摄。我直接拒绝：这不是搞科学的方式。
And not make it a circus. Because I won't name the TV show that wanted to do it, but they wanted me they wanted to follow me around with a camera. And I'm like, no. This isn't how science is done. Right.
在这种限制下我无法工作。我认为如果真要研究，应该交由南美科学家保管——不需要北美科学家越俎代庖。南美有很多聪明人能妥善处理，并尊重发现这些遗骸的圣地所属原住民的权利。这点很重要。
It's I I can't do it under the with those strictures. So I would say that if anybody's gonna do it again, lock the things away with South American scientists. You don't need a North American scientist to come in and do it. There's plenty of smart people in South America who can do this properly and respect the rights of the indigenous peoples who own the sacred grounds within which these things were found. I think that's important.
然后进行分析对吧。你知道，他们说过犯了错误，大概是说‘我们已经做了DNA检测，有很多DNA不匹配’。这些东西都有几百年历史了。那么古老的东西，你不可能提取出大量完好的DNA。但他们对待丹尼索瓦人和尼安德特人样本时也犯了同样的错误。
And and then do the analysis right. You know, they've said they made, I think, the mistake of saying, well, we've done the DNA, and there's a lot of DNA that doesn't match. Anything and the stuff is several 100 years old. Anything that old, you won't get a lot of good DNA out of it. But just they did the same thing with the d with the Denisovan and the and the Neanderthal.
必须校正随时间产生的化学误差。有种方法叫生物信息学校正。需要对基因组进行所谓的过读取——进行大量测序后，将所有读数像千层饼一样逐行堆叠。就像如果你有一千本古老圣经，你会逐行比对，最终找出某一行正确的字母，再确认下一个正确字母，本质上是在做正确率的叠加平均。所以他们声称‘基因组90%是非人类的’。
You have to correct the chemical errors that occur over time. There are ways to what's called bioinformatically correct. You need to do what's called overreading of the genome where you do so many reads of it that you stack them all up line by line. Like, if you had a thousand versions of an ancient bible, you would stack up the lines one by one, and finally, you find one line that has this letter that's correct and then this one correct, and then you basically do a summation of an averaging of the correctness. And so they say, oh, well, there's you know, 90% of the genome is nonhuman.
那很可能是垃圾数据。可能是这些错误。可能是你正在读取的细菌污染。有办法处理这些问题，但这需要资金支持，而不是把一次性DNA测序结果扔到网上，让某个业余基因组学家来发表些不靠谱的论断。
It's probably garbage. It's probably these mistakes. It's probably bacterial contamination that you're reading. There's ways to deal with that, but that requires money and not one off DNA sequences put on the on the interwebs for some amateur genomicist to make a claim Right. About.
没错。明白吗？所以方法确实是有的。我的意思是，你最终会希望把结果提升到能拿去给研究丹尼索瓦人和尼安德特人DNA的团队——比如马克斯·普朗克研究所那些因此获得诺贝尔奖的人——然后问：‘嘿，你们怎么看？’
Right. You know? So there's ways to do it. I mean, you would want, at the end of the day, to get the results to the level where you could go to the guys who did the Denisovan and the Neanderthal DNA, the Max Planck, and others who won the Nobel Prize for it, and say, hey. What do you think?
但在完成基础工作前，你根本不敢把这种成果拿给那些专家看。
But you don't dare take it to people like that until you've done your homework.
明白了。是的。
I see. Yeah.
而且要在幕后完成。不能把他们突然推到聚光灯下。对吧。懂我意思吗？
And you do it behind the scenes. You don't put them under a flashlight. Right. Right. You know?
我觉得人们已经习惯了这种点击即得的急躁心态——我今天就要结果。为什么不能完全透明？明天就把所有数据扔到网上。你不透明就是在隐瞒什么。
And and and people, I think, have gotten used to this click mentality of impatience where I want the result today. Why can't you just make it all transparent? Dump all the data on on the web tomorrow. You're not transparent. You're hiding something.
不，我没有。我只是在确保你不会因为原始数据本身的不纯净而犯错，进而指责我犯错。
No. I'm not. I am just trying to make sure that you don't make the mistake and accuse me of making the mistake that you'll find in the data because the raw data is never clean.
然后《每日邮报》的标题就会满天飞。
And the Daily Mail headline daily mail headline.
准确地说，长话短说，我认为那里仍有值得探究的东西。
Accurate. So so long story short, I think there's still something worth looking at there.
嗯，这些扫描结果很吸引人，对吧？
Well, the scans are fascinating. Right?
是啊，这些扫描对我来说最有意思。
Yeah. The scans are the most interesting to me.
你看过杰西·迈克尔斯的最新视频了吗？对。
Have you seen the Jesse Michaels, the newest video? Yeah.
杰西是我的好朋友。
Jesse's a good friend.
他太棒了，我超喜欢那家伙。他做的那期节目精彩极了，尤其是展示扫描结果、分析骨骼结构的部分，看着看着你就会觉得——天啊，这太真实了。如果这是1700年前的骗局，或者...
He's great. I love that guy. And the the the episode that he did is fantastic. And when you see the scans and they go over the bone structure of the thing and you look at it, you're like, god, that looks real. If that's a hoax from seventeen hundred years ago or
历经这么多年。确实。
over years Exactly.
不管是谁...如果他们做的碳同位素年代测定是准确的。
Whoever if they've if the carbon isotope dating that they did on it is accurate.
我研究过那些数据，看起来没问题。
I've looked at that data. It looks good.
好吧，那它真有那么古老。去你的吧。没错，因为那时候的人根本不可能伪造出这种东西。
Okay. So then it is that old. Fuck you then. Yeah. Because there's no way someone back then could fake that.
然后有人
And somebody
前几天问我。他们说，嗯，会不会是单个突变或一组突变？我说不会。因为没有一个突变能造成所有那些变化。对吧。
asked me the other day. They said, well, could you have a single mutation or a set of? I said, no. I mean, because you don't get one mutation that does all that. Right.
要知道，进化是逐步进行的，这个负责这个功能，但它有个缺陷，不过会被这边的这个突变修正，而这个突变又被那个修正。所以整个基因组会随时间波动，补偿那些原本会致命的错误。
You know, evolution works step by step that this is a this does this, but it has a mistake, but it's corrected by this mutation over here in evolution, which is corrected by this. And so the whole the genome fluctuates over time compensating for the errors that would otherwise have killed you.
另外，其中有一个怀孕了。
Also, one of them is pregnant.
真快。是啊，我知道。
That's fast. Yeah. I know.
好吧。所以是个三英尺长的怀孕生物，看起来一点都不像人类。
Okay. So it's a three foot pregnant thing that doesn't look remotely human being.
对。所以现在还无法定论。但如果他们想正确处理，就需要隔离这些东西，召集合适的人手和足够资源，还要撤掉摄像头。
Yeah. So the jury is still out. Right. But if they're gonna do it right, they need to sequester the stuff away, bring in the right people with sufficient resources, and get rid of the cameras.
你和他们谈过吗？你有推动这事吗？有可能引导它朝正确方向发展吗？现在进展到哪一步了？
Have you talked to them? Have you encouraged this? Is this is it possible to nudge this in the right direction? And where is it at right now?
我在推特上详细列出了他们需要做的事。说实话，最容易实现的第一个里程碑，几个月内就能完成——如果它属于人科或脊椎动物谱系，我们都有共同的新陈代谢基因。实际上我们甚至和细菌都有非常相似的代谢基因。你知道聚合酶链式反应PCR技术吧？何必非要测序整个基因组呢？
I I wrote out on Twitter a full thing of what they needed to do. I mean, the easiest first milestone to do, to be honest, that could be done within a couple of months, is if it is somewhere in the hominid or, let's say, vertebrate line, there are metabolism genes that we all share. In fact, there are metabolism genes that we share with bacteria that are very similar. So there's you probably do you know the technique called polymerase chain reaction, PCR? So, you know, why try to do the whole genome?
为什么不直接靶向我们已知进化缓慢但确实会进化的一些基因，用PCR扩增出来？这比组装整个基因组容易多了。有了这些——我们姑且称为初步证据组——就能说：看，如果我从手指取样，从骨髓取样，从身体不同部位取样，再从三个主要部位取样，都发现相同的突变，而且这些突变与人科进化存在差异或关联。对吧？我们可以和所有已知人科生物做对比。
Why not just target a bunch of genes that we know evolve slowly but do evolve and PCR those out because that's easier to do than is trying to assemble a whole genome. And then by having just those, let's call it preliminary sets of evidence, you could then say, this actually reproducibly if I take a sample from the finger, I take a sample from the bone marrow, I take a sample from here or there on the body, and I take a sample from different the three different main things. And I see the same mutations, and they're different or somehow aligned with hominid evolution. Right? We compare it to all the known hominids.
我是说，如果操作得当，这类数据确实能发表在《自然》这样的期刊上。嗯。因为这是唯一能引起人们注意的方式。
I mean, that would be the kind of data that you could actually publish in a journal like Nature if you did it right. Mhmm. Because that's the only way that you're gonna get anybody to pay attention.
还有一些艺术品本身带有诡异的轶事特征。比如这些人创作了大量挂毯和千年古画，上面都描绘着这些三指生物。
There's also the bizarre anecdotal nature of some of the artwork. Like, the fact that these people did a lot of these tapestries and a lot of ancient artwork that's a thousand years old that depicts these three fingered things.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以他们到底在描述什么？是记录某种数量稀少的真实生物——某种基因突变的怪物，还是在描绘某种常见的访客？
So it's like, what are they describe? Are they describing these actual creatures that that is there only a few of them, and it was a weird genetic mutation, or is this a common visitor that they're describing?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我也不知道。
I don't know either.
我是说，为什么要...为什么要把它们放在秘鲁的洞穴里？我不明白。
I mean, why would you why would you put them in a cave in Peru? I don't know.
如果不把它们放在秘鲁洞穴里，还能剩下什么证据？问题就在这儿。化石形成极其困难，骨头也很难保存。懂吗？
And if you didn't put them in a cave in Peru, what would be left? That's the problem. The problem is it's really hard to make a fossil. It's really hard to find bones. You know?
想想所有死去的人类。对吧。可你见过多少遗骨？相对死去的那几十亿人来说，我们找到的骨头根本不成比例。
Think about all the people that died. Right. And where where you know? We don't find that many bones, relatively speaking, to in comparison to the fucking billions of people that died.
确实。
Right.
我们又不是每天都会踩到人骨头上。
It's not like we're tripping over human bones every day.
没错。除非是乱葬岗。对。
Right. Except in mass graves. Yeah.
对。确实如此。即便是乱葬岗，时间久了也会腐化，就像...1700年前的乱葬岗，不管这些是什么东西。
Right. That's really yeah. And even in mass graves, given enough time, they will deteriorate, like Yeah. Mass graves from a 1,700 years ago, whatever these things are.
所以你看，我再次发现它们时觉得很有趣，我希望幕后有人在用更系统的方法研究——这些人我认为应该保持隐秘，直到数据完善到可以发表。听着，在网上发布白皮书或随便发点东西，和公布完整的研究工具、方法等数据是两回事。坦白说，理想的论文应该详实到近乎枯燥，让伪怀疑论者根本不敢质疑——因为他们智商不够。但如果你只抛出些缺乏背景的片段，谁都能挑刺。
So, you know, I find them again, I find them interesting, and I I I hope that behind the scenes, there are people who are taking a more methodical approach to this who I think should remain stealthed until they have the data to the point where is publishing publish. Yeah. You know, publishing a white paper or putting something out on the Internet is not the same as putting out data that has all of the instruments that you used, the methods that you used, etcetera. The the reason you want papers, frankly, when you publish them to be almost boring and so thick with detail that no pseudosceptic would dare approach it because there's just they're just not smart enough. If you but if you put out these snippets that don't have sufficient background, they can be picked apart by anybody.
嗯哼。懂吗？所以同行评审才这么重要。人们误以为评审是要让专家认同你的结论。不是的。
Mhmm. Alright? But that's why peer review is so important. And people mistake peer review as trying to get the reviewers to agree with your conclusions. No.
同行评审的核心其实是确保你使用的方法足够详尽准确，使得任何结论都能与方法论自洽。
The main purpose of peer review is actually to make sure that the methods that you used are sufficiently detailed and are correct enough to the extent you came to any conclusions, they match the methods that you used.
说到这些可能的...不管是什么生物，如果它们真是某种人科物种，你觉得'远古分支文明'理论可信度有多高？就是这些UFO、UAP可能来自与我们截然不同的史前文明，就像人类和黑猩猩的关系那样——虽然共存但天差地别。
And when you think about these potential whatever they are, whatever these these creatures are, if we did find out that they are some sort of a hominid, how much credence do you give to the theory that there's, like, the possibility that these UFOs, UAPs, whatever it is, is a break off civilization from a very, very long time ago that's very different from us, the same way we're very different from chimpanzees Right. Which we coexist with.
没错。我完全接受这种猜想。你看过网飞的《黑猩猩帝国》吗？
Right. I have no problem conjecturing that. Did you ever see the the Netflix show, Chimp Empire?
看过。
Yes.
绝妙对吧？分化两千万年后，它们开会的样子简直像他妈的高校教研室——互相打量、密谋策划...活脱脱董事会现场。
Amazing. Right? Amazing. Twenty million years of separation, and it looked like fucking faculty meeting, you know, with people, like, looking at each other and planning and plotting Yep. Board meeting.
你知道吗？我们共享了来自两千万年前的所有那些互动。嗯哼。那么要追溯到多久以前才能遇到类似的情况呢？
You know? And so we shared all of those interactions from twenty million years ago. Mhmm. So how much further back would you have to go to have something like what
对。
Right.
那是什么？我是说，这显然不是最近的事。
That is? I mean, it's clearly not recent.
而且，如果你想想我们与黑猩猩相比的状态，我们如此脆弱，容易受伤，嗯...如果想象比我们技术先进得多的存在，它们会更加脆弱。体型会更娇小。几乎完全没有肌肉。奇怪的是它们会很像《第三类接触》里的格雷斯。
And, also, if you think about what we are in comparison to chimps, we're so fragile, we're frail, we're easily injured, we're well, if you think of something that's far more technologically advanced than us, it would be even more frail. It would be even more petite. It would have Right. Almost no muscle at all. It would look weirdly enough like the grace from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
是的。如果那是个类人生物——不管我们算什么——而它已经远远超越了那个阶段，那就是它的模样。
Yeah. That's what it would look like If it was a hominid, that's whatever we are, and it went way past that.
对。没错。技术给了进化一个借口，不再需要让你变得或允许你保持...健壮。健壮。
Right. Yeah. No. Technology gives evolution the excuse to no longer make or allow for you to be Robust. Robust.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这就是我在找的词。
That was the word I looking for.
为什么需要对生拇指？是吧？这些东西甚至没有对生拇指。
Why do you need opposable thumbs? Yeah. Right? These things don't even have opposable thumbs.
这就是奇怪之处。对。就像，它们怎么与环境互动？它们看起来更像树懒而不是...对吧。
That was what's weird about it. Right. It's like, how do you interact with your environment? They look more like sloths than they do. Right.
是啊。我是说，至少它们的手是这样。对。然后...我我也不清楚。我觉得这
Yeah. I mean, at least their hands do. Yeah. And and I I don't know. I find it
嗯，如果一切都由AI和自动化完成。嗯。而你的交互界面完全是神经层面的。嗯。比如，你有某种人类或生物神经接口技术，只需将手指放在电子设备上就能同步连接。
Well, if everything's done with AI and automation Mhmm. And your interface is purely neurological. Mhmm. Like, you have some sort of a human or a creature neuro interface with technology, and you just use fingers to, like, lay them on electronics so that you can sync up with it.
对。没错。是啊。为什么不呢？
Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Why not?
为什么...老兄你干嘛还要拿东西？你根本不需要再拿东西了。那些都会消失，懂吗？
Why why are you picking things up, bro? You don't have to pick things up anymore. Those go away just like you know?
你能想象那个场景吗？我是说，我们知道的这些物体——身体是真实的。它们究竟是什么我们不清楚。但你能想象它们被埋葬时的情形吗？比如能不能...拍一部关于这些东西仪式性下葬的影片？究竟是什么导致了它们的死亡？
Can you imagine the scenario of I mean, these things we know are the the the body is real. What they are, we don't know. But can you imagine the scenario of what happened as they were being buried? You know, what would they could could you, like, make a a of, you know, a film of the ceremonial burial of these things. You know, what would what led to their death?
是什么让它们被安置在那里？如果它们是构造体——虽然根据我们看到的核磁共振图像我很难相信这点——那又是出于什么原因？所以对我来说，这几乎和它们是否真实存在一样有趣。
What led to their placement there? Or if they were constructed, which I have a hard time with given the MRIs that we've all seen, etcetera, What led to it? And so that to me is is almost interesting as to whether or not they're real or not.
没错。那些明显是构造体的才真有意思，因为...你到底想复现什么？
Right. Like, the ones that are clearly constructed, that's where it gets fascinating because, like, what were you trying to reproduce?
是的。
Yes.
为什么它们和那些看起来真实的如此相似？
And why are they so similar to the ones that look real?
对啊。你这是...某种致敬对吧？对祖先或祖先传说的致敬之类的？
Yeah. Are you is it an homage Right. To the ancestors or to the stories of the ancestors, etcetera?
没错。尤其是看看秘鲁的情况。比如，秘鲁有纳斯卡线条
Yeah. Especially when you look at Peru. Like, Peru is like, you've got the Nazca lines
是啊。
Yeah.
那些线条非常诡异。对吧？它们只能从空中看到，遍布各地且规模巨大，描绘的都是些非常奇特的东西。
Which are really weird. Right. You can only see them from the sky, and they're everywhere, and they're huge. These depictions of very strange things.
我常对我的科学界同僚说，不要急于否定，而是开放心态去思考这些现象可能意味着什么，尝试解释而非直接驳回。因为这在政治中太常见了——随便给出一个明显荒谬的答案来转移话题。但作为科学家，我们永远不该采用这种回避态度，可惜像尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森这类人经常这么做。
I you know, I just so I just ask my scientific colleagues to not suspend disbelief, but to open your minds as to the possibility of what it of what these things might mean and just try to explain them without dismissing them. Because it's so easy, and politics, we see it every day. All you need to do is just give any answer even if it's obviously flagrantly wrong as just as a way to deflect. And so, you know, you can either use that approach you shouldn't use that approach ever as a scientist, deflect, which unfortunately is what someone like, you know, Neil deGrasse Tyson often does.
确实。
Yeah.
而不是用能教会观众正确思考方式的角度来解释。
And as opposed to try to explain in a way that teaches your audience the right way to think.
说得好。雅克·瓦利曾指出，他们发现过一种分层原子结构的特殊合金。以现今技术几乎不可能复刻，成本更是高达数十亿美元。
Yeah. Well said. One of the things that Jacques Vallee highlighted is there's an alloy, another piece of metal, some that they'd found that had layers like these at an atomic level Yep. That if you wanted to make this alloy today, it would be almost impossible, and it would cost billions of dollars.
我参与过其中一块的研究，做过原子成像...该死我一时想不起具体事件，应该是索科罗事件，地点好像是新墨西哥州？
So I worked with him on on one of those pieces. I got the atomic imaging of some of that, and it's oh god. I'm I'm blanking on the event, but it was the Serocco event. And where was that? In, I think, New Mexico.
记不清细节可能要挨骂了。我们当时用原子探针断层扫描技术逐原子解析其三维结构——这是40年前的老技术并不神奇。但如今要制造这种材料确实极其困难。
I'm gonna get in trouble for not knowing exactly. But and we actually did a atomic layering using this device called atomic probe tomography where you literally pick it apart atom by atom and get its three d position. It's a 40 year old technology, so it's nothing magic. So and, yeah, it would just be very difficult to make it. You know?
更重要的是，没人会把这种东西随意丢弃在沙漠里。是索科罗吧？七十年代或其他时候的沙漠中。制造或许并非完全不可能，但动机才是关键问题。
And and, certainly, it would be not something that you would have dropped in the middle of the desert. Is it Socorro? Socorro. In the middle of the desert, you know, in the nineteen seventies or whenever it was. I wouldn't say it's impossible to make, but why you would do it is another question.
这显然是技术和制造的证据。而最让我感兴趣的是，首先，为什么要这么做？比如，为什么要用改变比例的硅和镁来制造某物？不是问它从哪来。而是这证明了什么？
It's clearly evidence of technology and manufacture. And that's what interests me is, first of all, why would you do it? Why would you create something, for instance, with the silicon and the magnesium with the altered ratios? Not the where did it come from. What so what is it evidence of?
这显然是技术的证据。
It's clearly evidence of technology.
在这次所谓的坠毁事件发生时，当时有这种技术吗？
Was this talk technology available at the time this supposed crash happened?
哪个？这个肯定没有。没有。绝对达不到那种精密程度...不，根本没有。
Which one? This car no. Not no. Not not at the level of precision that was done and a chunk of and no. It just wasn't.
根本没有。所以如果这是真的，如果证据链正确且它确实来自那次坠毁，那就不是人类制造的。
It just wasn't. So if that's true and if it really if that's the chain of evidence is correct and it really did come from that area from that crash, that's not a human creation.
其实不是坠毁。是有警察目睹一个物体，旁边站着矮小的生物。当它起飞离开后，他发现了这块碎片——实际上现在由我亲自保管。但你知道，很难界定什么可能什么不可能。毕竟现在很多军事项目的技术都远超主流水平。
Well, it wasn't a crash. It was an object that a policeman had seen with beings short beings outside of it. And when it took off and left, he went over and found this piece that I had actually, I personally have it now. So but, you know, it's it's hard to say what's possible and what's not possible. So, you know, there's plenty of military programs that make stuff that are way outside of mainstream capabilities right now.
比如看看隐形轰炸机
I mean, just look at the stealth bomber
确实。
Right.
举例来说，隐形轰炸机的表层材料就非常了不起。
For instance, and the skin of the stealth bomber is just remarkable.
他们在1970年可能做到这种程度吗？
Is it possible they were doing that in 1970?
也许吧。也许。这就是为什么我总是保留这种可能性，你知道，这也是为什么我要回到我正在研发的原子成像设备这件事上。我认为通过原子成像能提供的证据层级，可以超越我们所知的任何人能制造的水平。对吧？
Maybe. Maybe. So that's why I always leave open the possibility that, you know which is why I mean, this is I'm gonna go back to this atomic imager thing that I'm making. It's like there's a there's a level of evidence that I think can be produced with atomic imaging that goes beyond what it is we know anybody can make. Right?
所以，这就是我想做这件事的原因，因为你看，我可以通过研究合金和纳米材料等来赚钱，这将成为制造这台仪器的目的所在。这就是它如何成为一家公司的方式，但它也会在其他领域有价值。老实说，我最初对它感兴趣是为了观察染色体，但后来我意识到，哦，也许它对其他事物也有研究价值，这进一步推动了我对它的兴趣。
So and so that's my reason for wanting to do it because you know, look. I can make money on it with looking at alloys and nanomaterials, etcetera, and that's gonna be what the purpose of the of making the instrument will. That's how it will be a company, but it will have value elsewhere. So the reason that I got interested in it was frankly for looking at chromosomes, but then I realized, oh, maybe it has interest and maybe it would be useful for these other things as well, which has kind of propelled my interest in it.
嗯，雅克·菲莱之所以是一位宝贵的研究者，是因为他处理事情的方式非常逻辑化，不会草率下结论。是的。而且他对这些材料及其来源的描述非常令人信服，因为就像，如果在1970年真的不可能制造出这种东西，那谁能帮我解释一下。是的。那到底是什么？
Well, Jacques Filet is such a valuable researcher because he's so logical about the way he handles things, and he doesn't jump to any conclusions. Yep. And and his descriptions of these materials and the origin of these materials is really compelling because it's just like, if that's not really possible to make in 1970, then someone help me out. Yeah. What is that?
是的。那今天有可能制造出来吗，成本会是多少？
Yeah. And is it possible to make today, and how much would it cost?
对。而且你会在哪里制造？这就是为什么镁的比例问题，当我最初估算时，感觉这需要数百万美元，为什么会有人把它留在巴西乌巴图巴的海滩上？对吧。你知道，这看起来不太可能。
Right. And where would you do it? Well, that's why the magnesium ratio thing was you know, when I first estimated, it was like, this is millions and millions of dollars, and why would you leave it on a beach in the middle of Ubatuba, Brazil? Right. You know, it just it just seems it seems unlikely.
没有什么是不可能的
Nothing's impossible
不。但不太可能。嗯，
No. But unlikely. Well,
然后，通常就是证据链的问题。有很多材料你可能会发现它们很特别。相信我，我实验室经常收到人们寄来的石头，他们说，哦，这个很特别。不。它就是块石头。
then and and then it's usually the chain of evidence. It's it's there's lots of materials that you might find that are unusual. And believe me, I get rocks sent to me at my lab in the mail that people say, oh, this is unusual. No. It's a rock.
抱歉。它就是块石头。但你知道，我至今还没有收到任何能让我明确说这不是人类可能制造出来的东西。可能很难，但并非不可能。这是因为要宣称某物不可能存在，所需的分辨率水平我们目前甚至还不具备。
Sorry. It's a rock. But, you know, I have not yet been given anything which I could definitively say this is not something a human might have been able to make. It might be difficult, but not impossible yet. And so that's because the level of resolution required to claim something is impossible is something we actually don't even have yet.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
是的。这确实有道理。
Yes. That does make sense.
所以我整个职业生涯都在发明那些我认为是必然但尚未实现的仪器。我能看到制造它们的路径，于是我对大多数人说，别挡我的路。我要做这个，因为我知道一旦成功，它将对所有人产生价值——这正是我在免疫学领域取得成就的方式，通过制造一系列这样的仪器并让科研界共享。我认为下一个前沿是原子层面，因为如今翻开任何主流物理期刊，内容全是关于那些存在于超材料原子层面的奇异粒子，它们具有模糊而奇特的能力，可能改变超导体、室温电子元件或量子计算机电路与量子比特的性能。
So that's what I so my whole career has been inventing instruments that were, I felt, inevitable but not yet possible. But I could see a path to making them, and so I said to most people, get out of my way. I'm gonna do this because I know once I've got it, it will become valuable to everybody, which is that's what made my career in immunology, making a succession of instruments like that and then making them available to the community. So I think the next level is atomic because we now know you can pick up and look at any of the any of the major, you know, physics journals today. Everything is all about these weird exotic particles that exist in metamaterials down at the atomic level with vague and strange capabilities that will change their utility either as superconductors, room temperature, or different kinds of electronic components that might be better quantum computer circuits and qubits.
一切都发生在那个微观层面。但实现它需要目前尚未达到的工程水平——且不说解读其原理，单是将其组装成型就是当前面临的挑战。如果我们连基础组装都无法完成，那么读取信息、确认其存在性并将其与功能关联——这才是我希望创造的价值所在。
It's all down at that level. But to do so requires a level of engineering that we don't I mean, never mind reading what it is. Putting it together in the first place is what's still required. And so if we don't know how to put it together in the first place, then reading it and knowing that it can exist and then associating it with a function is the value that I'm looking to bring.
这让我想到坠毁残骸回收计划——这个概念其实由来已久，罗斯威尔事件只是众多案例之一。据说在罗斯威尔附近还有一起更重大的事件，只是没被媒体报道。
Well, this brings me to the idea of crash retrieval and the the idea that these crash retrievals started a long time ago and that Roswell was just one of many. There's another one that was near Roswell that apparently was even more significant but didn't get in the newspaper.
你说的是三位一体事件吧？就是雅克参与研究的那次。
Trinity, are you talking about? Dang. It was the one that Jacques was involved with studying.
我是根据理查德·多兰的书来推断的。
I'm gonna I'm basing this off of Richard Dolan's book.
明白。
Okay.
但关键在于，如果他们真这么做了——如果真的逆向工程了某些东西，继而启动那些绝密科研项目，用前所未见的技术开发全新合金材料...（嗯）而这些技术可能完全源自外星飞船。如果不公开这些信息，那才真正疯狂，因为这相当于给人类进化——人类技术进化（嗯）——以及我们对可能性边界的认知套上了枷锁。
But at the end of the day, my the point being that if they did do that, if they really did back engineer something and then they started these completely top secret scientific research projects where they were developing alloys that had never existed before with techniques that they had never really even considered Mhmm. Because they got it all from some spaceship. Well, that's where it's really crazy if you don't disclose this information because you're you're you're basically putting a bottleneck on human evolution, human human technological evolution Mhmm. And our our understanding of what's actually possible. Right.
我同意。如果要激发本国新一代科学家的热情，要为国家带来经济繁荣，我们就应该...倒不是说完全民主化地公开到互联网上，我理解保密的种种理由——
I agree. And, you know, if you're going to excite the next generation of scientists in this country and you're gonna bring economic prosperity to this country, then we should I wouldn't say democratize it and put it all out on the Internet. I understand all the reasons why you might not
没错。
Right.
需要这么做，但你需要激发民众的热情。我的意思是，过去十年里，我在斯坦福的实验室大约90%是外国人。不是因为我不想招收更多美国人，而是因为美国人不再投身科学领域了。他们不学数学。你知道吗？
Need to, but you need to excite the populace. I mean, my laboratory at Stanford for probably the last ten years is 90% foreigners. Not because I don't want to take more Americans, but because Americans just don't go into the sciences anymore. They don't study math. You know?
他们没有被鼓励来接触我们，所以我们从海外引进了很多科学家。但你知道吗？其中约三分之一最终会带着他们在这里发明的所有技术回国，创造出竞争对手。从全球范围看这或许是好事，但如果我们想保持技术优势，这可能不是我们想在本地层面鼓励的现象。
They aren't encouraged to approach us, so we're importing a lot of our scientists from overseas. Well, guess what? A good third of them end up going back and bringing all the technology that they invented here back there and creating competitors. Now maybe that's good on a global scale. You know, but maybe it's not something that we want to encourage on a local scale if we want to maintain our technological superiority.
而且我们基本上是由律师治理的。中国是由工程师治理的。明白吗？
And we're basically governed by lawyers. China is governed by engineers. You know?
我是说，看到他们无人机技术、电动汽车和中国最近推出的那些成果了吗？
I mean see the results in their drone technology and electric cars and the things that are coming out of China recently?
他们的政治局几乎全是工程师和科学家。
Their polyp bureau is almost entirely engineers and scientists.
有意思。
Interesting.
是啊。《大西洋月刊》最近有篇小文章讲这个。
Yeah. There's a little article in the in the Atlantic recently about that.
巨大优势。
A giant advantage.
没错。所以当这些人做决策时，我们有律师在找各种该做或不该做的理由和法律责任。而他们（中国）看的是可行性。
Yeah. So people who are making these we have lawyers looking for all the reasons why something should or shouldn't be done and the liabilities. They're looking at things as to what's possible.
当你查看人们带给你的那些UAP（不明空中现象）资料时，有没有哪一个事件对你来说特别具有说服力？
When you're looking at these UAP things that people bring you, what is there one that stands out as being the most compelling to you? One event?
嗯，康瑟尔布拉夫斯和乌巴图巴事件都让我很感兴趣。
Well, both the Council Bluffs and the Ubatuba event are interesting to me.
是因为那些实体物质吗？
Because of the physical material?
就是实体物质本身。说到底我是个唯物主义者。明白吗？我不喜欢那些道听途说的故事。一千个传闻可以编成精彩的篝火故事。
The physical material itself. I mean, I'm, at the end of the day, a physicalist. You know? I mean, I I don't like all the anecdotes. I mean, a thousand anecdotes make a good story, good campfire.
我认为人们反复看到相同事物具有统计价值，其中存在某种真相。但你知道？我可以相信围绕它的一切猜想，许多据称是我发表的言论都关乎我的信念。而当我戴上科学家的帽子试图说服同行时，我只能提供这些数据和证据——目前还没有这些材料。也许它们确实存在，也许像大卫·格鲁什这样的人能从那些紧握不放的人手里撬出来。只要给我一件实物，我就能创造奇迹。
I mean, I think there's statistical value in people seeing the same thing again and again, and and there's a there's a truth to it. But as you know? And I can believe everything I want to around that, and many of the statements that I'm purported to have said are around my beliefs as opposed to when I put on my scientist hat and I try to convince another scientist, I can only provide this data and this evidence, and I don't have yet these materials. Now maybe they exist, and maybe, you know, people like David Grush will be able to pry them out of the clammy hands of those who wanna keep it where it is. But give me one piece of that, and I will do wonders with it.
没错。这就是为什么我对《不明空中现象披露法案》如此兴奋——如果它最终成为法律，我们或许能逐步挖掘出一些东西。这也是我认为应该走公私合作商业路线的原因：国防预算本质上是零和游戏，我们不过是在拆东墙补西墙。无论是从税收还是退伍军人保险里拨款，都是零和博弈。
Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm so excited about the UAP disclosure act if it ends up becoming law because there will be this ability to start to maybe eke some of this out. And, again, it's the reason why I think this commercial opportunity is the direction we wanna go where we have a sort of public private partnership is that the defense budget in and of itself is a zero sum game. We're taking money from one program to give to another. You know, whether you're taking it from your taxes, you're taking it from veterans, you know, insurance, etcetera, it's a zero sum game.
但引入投资界就不同了，这些人愿意冒险尝试，不再动用公共资金。这让我很振奋——我重返斯坦福就是因为那里的创业氛围（如今奥斯汀也形成了类似生态），这才是创新的驱动力。我想激发这个群体的热情。灵魂基金会正是一个汇聚人才的平台，已有投资者主动接洽创意项目。现在这几乎形成了自我推进的运动。
Whereas if you bring the investment community in, now you're bringing in people who are willing to take a chance and willing to take a risk, and you're not using the public's money anymore. And so and that excites, I mean, me as a the reason why I wanted to go back to Stanford is because the the entrepreneurial environment there, and now which is actually almost homegrown here in Austin, is really what drives innovation. And so I want to excite that kind of community. And, again, the Soul Foundation is a place where we can bring people in, and we've got investors who show up now who are talking to people about their ideas and what would we do with this. And so you you it almost has now a self propelling movement Mhmm.
我不必再站在公园的木箱上吆喝'看这个'，人们已经在自发行动。现在涌现出许多小型或正规组织，像手工业作坊般独立运作。这几乎已成必然趋势。
Where I don't need to be standing on a, you know, wooden box somewhere in the middle of the park saying, you know, look at this. Look at this. People are just doing it now. There's now a whole almost a cottage industry of small groups or formalized groups who are doing this independently now. So it's almost like inevitable.
比如'天空观察者'组织。你应该听说过吧？嗯。我有所耳闻。还有杰克·保罗停止——
So Skywatcher, as an example. You probably know of the Skywatcher group. Yeah. I've heard of it. And Jake Paul stop
行动？出什么事了吗？
operations? Did something happen?
没有。很奇怪有人说我们停止了。其实从一开始就定好只从一月运行到七八月收集数据。现在我们已经进入...好吧。
No. It's it's strange because people said, oh, we stopped. No. Actually, it had been it had been determined from the beginning that we were gonna go from January until July or August and collect data. And now we're in the, okay.
所谓的数据解读阶段，就是我们在中国实地查看数据文件的过程。正如我之前所说，我们正在筛选数据，寻找明显的错误等等。所以不，他们并未停止工作。
What does the data mean phase where we're literally going through the data, looking at the data files in China. We're as I said before, we're filtering the data. We're looking for the obvious mistakes Mhmm. Etcetera. And so, no, they have not stopped.
对。推特上有条关于设备的消息，具体我记不清了。没有。
Yeah. There was something on Twitter about the something about the equipment. I forget. No.
詹姆斯·福勒是给我们带来大量设备和技术的人之一，他决定转去国防部工作而非继续研究岗位，但仍担任我们的顾问。上周我刚和他通过Zoom电话会议审阅数据文件。
So James Fowler, one of the guys who brought a lot of his equipment and technology to us, decided that he wanted to basically go off and work in a DOD capacity as opposed to the research capacity, but he's still advising us. I was just on a phone call, a Zoom call with him last week going over the data files.
给大伙解释下这个'天眼观测'是怎么回事吧，听起来太玄乎了。
So explain this sky watcher thing to people because it sounds insane.
这个设想的初衷是可能存在某种发送信号就能让物体显形的方法。詹姆斯·福勒宣称他掌握了这种技术。我参加过某次活动，确实有东西出现了——虽然转瞬即逝，但确凿无疑。
Well, the idea behind it was that there might be ways to send a signal and get things to show up. And Right. James Fowler claimed that he had such a thing. I was at one of the events where something showed up. It was transient, momentary, but in dis you know, indisputable.
但具体什么样？就是个银色球体在视频的连续帧间快速移动，坦白说帧率根本不够捕捉它，我们只看到它朝那个方向移动。
But it's just like, what did it look like? It was just a silver ball moving quickly through several frames of a of the of a video, which was not fast enough, frankly, to pick it up. We just saw it move. It went that way,
能用肉眼直接看到吗？
and then see it with your naked eye?
不能，我肉眼没看见。嗯，这确实是个问题。
No. I didn't see it with naked eye. Mhmm. Which, of course, is a problem.
他们有时能用肉眼看到东西吗
Do they sometimes see things with the naked
？有个人做到过。对。
eye? One guy did. Yeah.
一个人。哦，我是说，这些东西的外观会变化吗？
One guy. Oh, I mean So are these things variable in their appearance?
真希望我带了手机，但我没带。不过我们确实有一张照片，拍的是距离直升机约200英尺的一个东西，在蓝天下看起来像一团模糊的白色斑点。但它确实在那里。你懂吗？它不是云，也不是气球。
I wish I had my I don't have my phone here. But we do have a picture of one next to a next to the helicopter about 200 feet away, and it's just kind of a fuzzy white blob against a blue sky. But it was there. You know? And it's it's not a cloud, and it's not a balloon.
嗯。你知道，它看起来不像任何明显的东西，但它确实存在，而且是在沙漠中某次事件期间出现的。嗯。所以，‘天空观察者’项目的初衷就是探索是否有方法能让它们现身，如果可行的话，以可重复的方式，并配备多传感器同步监测能力来测量，包括雷达、红外、视觉观测和地面人员。
Mhmm. You know, it's not discernible as anything obvious, but it was there, and it happened during one of these events out in the middle of the desert. Mhmm. And so, you know, so the the idea is behind Sky Watcher is to see if there are ways to get them to show up, and if so, in a reproducible manner, and then have the right kind of simultaneous multisensor capabilities to measure it, meaning radar, IR, visual, people on the ground.
他们发送什么信号让这些东西出现？具体是什么信号？
What are they sending to get these things to go? What what signal?
詹姆斯有个信号，但遗憾的是他不愿意——我也不知道具体是什么。
James has a signal that, unfortunately, he won't. I don't know what it is.
他不肯公开那个蝙蝠信号？
He won't let everybody know what the bat signal
是吗？我是说，也许吧。听起来有点傻，但为什么要放到网上？因为可能会让它失效。
is? Well, mean, know, I mean, maybe yeah. Exactly. I mean, it sounds kinda silly, but, I mean, why would you put that out on the Internet? Because, you know, you might render it useless.
它们可能会想：‘呃，现在所有人都在用这个信号，我才不出现呢。’
They're like, ugh. I don't gotta show up. Everybody's everybody's using it now.
哦，所以你觉得这是个骗局？像是用计诱使它们现身？
Oh, so you think it's a trick? Like, it tricks them into showing up?
我不知道，真的不知道。你不觉得它们会——
I don't know. I really don't. Don't you think they'd
比那更聪明些？
be smarter than that?
嗯，这或许能让你了解这些所谓的笨机器可能整合的智能水平。对，我也是这么想的。就像，除非你是有意要训练猴子该怎么做，否则明知是什么还出现是为什么？也许你在诱使猴子发送...我不清楚。
Well, that tells you something maybe about the level of smarts that might be incorporated into these, let's say, dumber machines. Maybe yeah. That was exactly my thought. It's like, why would you show up when you know what it is unless there's a reason you're basically trying to train the monkeys what to do? Maybe you're tricking the monkeys into sending I I don't know.
但不是有一群人纯粹依靠心灵力量吗？他们冥想。是的。据说他们也取得了一些成功。
But isn't there a group of people that just go out and they just using their mind? They meditate. Yeah. And supposedly, they have some success as well.
CE5团体就在做这类事，我从未参与过，因为...我不知道如何量化它。嗯。我完全愿意相信存在能远距离测量思维的技术，可能是某种超级先进的...我不认为必须称之为心灵感应或魔法。我认为如果真存在这种现象，那应该是某种能远程读取的技术。
There's the c e five groups that do that, and I've never participated in any of that because I don't I don't know how to measure it. Uh-huh. I'm, you know, I'm I'm more than willing to believe that there are technologies capable of measuring thoughts at a distance that might be, you know, some super advanced. I don't believe you have to call it telepathy and magic. I think that there's you know, if such a thing happens that there is a technology that might be able to read at a distance.
对，我对此没有异议。
Right. Well, it's I no problem with that.
我也没异议。我不反对意识这个概念还处于模糊且浅显的认知阶段，也不反对我们通过意识与宇宙及现实本身的关系尚未完全界定。而且，它可能像我们其他智力能力一样会进化。
I I don't have a problem with that either. I I don't have a problem with the idea that consciousness is kind of vaguely and barely understood, and whatever our relationship to the universe itself and reality itself through consciousness is it's not fully defined. And, also, it might evolve just like all of our other intellectual capabilities.
没错。这么想吧：你我正通过量子波相互作用。我的肉体大脑将你视为物体，但你的本质存在于普朗克尺度的量子时空中，你甚至没有质量——在某些人看来，你只是一系列振动场和物体。
Right. Well, I mean, think of it this way. You know, you you and I are interacting with each other through quantum waves. I my meat brain sees you as an object, but yet everything that you are sits in quantum space time down at the Planck level, and you're not even mass. You're just a series of I mean, in some people's minds, vibrating fields and objects.
我们通过传感器看见、听见并思考对方，但意识却嵌在时空中。谁能断言没有信号在来回传递，只是我们的肉体大脑未必能感知？对吧？所以即使我不能对你发脑电波，你也听不见，不代表某些人的大脑结构可能比其他人更擅长接收这种回响。
And so we have sensors that see and hear each other and think about each other, but our consciousness somehow is embedded in space time. And so who's to say that there's not signals passing to and from that are vaguely able to be picked up by our meat brains that we don't necessarily appreciate? Right. Right? So that just because I can't think at you and you can't hear me doesn't mean that there aren't perhaps brain organizations of some people that are a little bit better at hearing the the echo than others.
这或许也解释了为什么在没手机信号的森林里，世界感觉不一样。是的。因为你可能正接触大量大脑隐约感应的信号，这些信号甚至未必对你有益。
Well, this is also probably the reason why when you go to the woods and there's no cell phone signals, the world feels different. Yeah. Because you're probably experiencing a bunch of signals that your brain vaguely interacts with Right. That, you know, might not even necessarily be good for you. Right.
但它们确实存在，是你所处世界的一部分。
But they're out there, and they're a part of the world that you live in.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而你只是...你没有收音机。对吧？所以你不会像调频那样接收它们。你也没有手机，所以不能直接用手机打电话，但你却在经历这种现象。
And you just you can't you don't have a radio. Right. Right? So you're not, like, tuning into them. You don't have a cell phone, so you can't just, like, make calls with it, but you're experiencing it.
没错。而且，你知道，我们的文明正用持续不断的噪音淹没我们。是的。所以也许，正是这种噪音掩盖了它，这就是为什么人们声称通过冥想能与某些事物互动。我也不确定。
Right. Well and, you know, our civilization is drowning us in constant noise. Yeah. And so maybe, you know, that drowns it out, and that's why meditation is why people claim that they can interact with other things. I don't know.
是啊，我也不清楚。我曾看过你的一次采访，你描述2004年2月在圣地亚哥海岸附近目睹的尼米兹号事件，你说那个物体展现的动能...不如你来描述下？就是那东西要做出那种运动方式所需的能量...
Yeah. I don't know either. One I saw an interview that you did where you were describing the sighting over off the coast of San Diego in 02/2004, the the Nimitz sighting, where you said that the amount of power why don't you describe it? So the amount of power that that thing had to to use to move the way it did
对。
Right.
它被雷达捕捉到了。
So it's on radar.
雷达上有显示。这些其实是奥尔巴尼大学的物理学家凯文·纽斯做的计算，发表在论文里。再次强调，只是推测。但他基本说的是：要将一个物体从海平面50英尺瞬间加速到距地50英里高空，再瞬间减速，需要多大能量？这不仅仅是提升物体所需的能量。
It's on radar. So so these are actually calculations by Kevin Neuth, a physicist from the University of Albany, and a published paper. Again, just speculation. But what he basically said was how much power would it take to instantaneously accelerate from 50 feet over the ocean to 50 miles above the earth, whatever the number was, and instantaneously decelerate. So it's not just the amount of power to lift something.
这是实现瞬时加减速所需的能量。你可以简单计算一个假设一吨重的物体——其能量超过美国全年核能产量。而这些物体似乎能随意做到这点。那么它们的能量从何而来？我记得多年前问过哈尔类似问题。
It's the amount of power to accelerate and decelerate instantaneously. And so you can make simple physical calculations of a one ton object, let's say, and it's more than the nuclear output of The United States for a year. And yet these things seem capable of doing that at will. So where are they getting the energy from? And I remember asking Hal a question like this years ago.
当时我们正要进电梯——哈尔推迟了进电梯的时间——我们讨论他对这些物体运动原理的猜想。我说：所以它们某种程度上是在作弊，对吧？他回答：从我们的角度看是在作弊，从它们的角度看，只是在运用我们尚未理解的物理法则。那么能量究竟从哪来？
We were stepping into a Hal put off stepping into an elevator, and we were talking about his ideas about how these things might move. And I said, so they're cheating somehow, aren't they? And his answer was, from our point of view, they're cheating. From their point of view, they're just using the physics that we don't understand yet. So where's the energy coming from?
它们是怎么做到的？这或许就是...举例来说...为什么不能让人人都掌握这种技术。是的。因为任何一个那样的物体都比热核炸弹更危险。朝城市发射一个，整座城就完了。
What are they doing? And and so that might be, as a, for instance, a reason why you don't want everybody having access to it. Yeah. Because any one of those objects is a is worse than a thermonuclear bomb. You shoot one of those things at a city, and that's the end of the city.
而如果有人能做到，
And if anybody could do it,
要知道，或许这正是人类进化、社会文明演进的必经阶段——在获得其他所有能力之前，必须由AI掌权。没错。我们需要一个AI治理体系。没错。我们不再需要军事干预和那些糟心事。同意。
you know Well, maybe that's the the step of human evolution, of the the evolution of our society and civilization is that AI has to come into power before we have access to all this other stuff. Right. That we do need an AI government structure. Right. That we do no longer require military intervention and all all the shit that is Agreed.
当今文明的祸根。嗯。因为如果你问现在普通人，是否想象过没有战争的世界？大多数人会说没有。对吧？
The bane of civilization today. Mhmm. Because if you you ask the average person today, is do you envision a world where war doesn't exist? Most people are saying no. Right?
除了少数妄想嬉皮士，绝大多数人都会说不可能。对吧？但如果你问，如果这个超级智能AI接管世界后证明是仁慈的，只想提升地球上人类的生活品质，让所有人过得更好——那他们就会说可以。没错。
The vast majority, except for a few delusional hippies. They're gonna say no. Right? But if you ask them, okay, given this super intelligent AI takes over the world and proves to be benevolent and really just wants to accentuate the life of human beings on Earth and make it better for everybody, then yes. Right.
百分百可以。对吧。它为什么要战争？
Then a 100% yes. Right. Why would it want war?
对。
Right.
对吧？所以或许必须经历这种阶段，我们才能真正实现那种——看，这才是真正的旅行方式。
Right? So maybe something like that has to take place before we get to a situation where, okay, this is how you really travel.
没错。
Right.
好。既然不再打仗了，听着。
Right. Okay. Now that you're not going to war anymore, listen.
但你已经能想到重力泡泡了。也能预见负面声音：人们会说这是末日保姆国家，AI完全接管人类导致退化。所以我认为...对。应该让人类智慧与之融合形成协同，而非非此即彼。我也不想被保姆式管理。确实。
But you can already about gravity bubbles. You can already imagine the negatives where people will say, oh, well, it's the it's the it's the apocalyptic nanny state, right, where AI just basically takes care of you and humans devolve into something, which is why I think Yeah. A merger of human intellect with this where it's a synergy as opposed to an either or. I don't wanna be nanny stated either. Right.
我想用它来探索想法或寻求快乐。我是说，我发现人们想要享乐主义，整天参加虚拟派对。随他们去吧，我不在乎。
I wanna use it to explore ideas or explore pleasure. I mean, I'm finding people wanna be hedonistic and, you know, participate in virtual parties all day long Right. For all I care. I don't care. Right.
但我认为给予人们选择做任何他们想做的事的自由，这是最...我不知道该怎么说...这是最自由也最保守的生活方式，因为你可以做自己想做的事。但实际上我们做不到，因为我们总是受制于诸多束缚。
But I think giving people the option to do whatever it is that they wanna do, it's the most I don't know. What's the it's the most liberal and conservative way of living because you're allowed to do what you want to do. But we're not because we're living at the behest of so many other strictures. Always.
是啊。最后一个问题。伍迪，你怎么看鲍勃·巴扎尔的故事？
Yeah. Last question. Woody, what's your take on the Bob Bazaar story?
其中有真实的成分，但也掺杂了大量他可能被提供的错误信息。我不认为他在完全说谎。他似乎知道很多普通人不知道的事情。不过我也听埃里克·戴维斯等人说过，说他这个人如何如何。
Elements of truth with a healthy dose of misinformation that perhaps he was provided. I don't think that he's entirely lying. He seems to know enough about things that the average person wouldn't know. But, you know, I've heard from Eric Davis and others saying, you know, he's he's he's a this. He's a that.
我不确定，因为就像理查德·多兰这样优秀的历史作家，或是罗伯特·鲍威尔、迈克尔·斯沃兹这样只陈述事实不做过多结论的人。我不属于那个领域，那不是我的专长。我的专长是处理数据、分析问题，用严谨的科学方法说服其他科学家什么是对的或错的。因为除非能验证给同事看，否则我不会满足——虽然我很确定自己的认知，但总想证明给同行看，好说句'我早告诉过你'。
I don't know because, you know, it's like that's why there are great people like Richard Dolan who who's a, you know, a wonderful writer of the history of the area or people like Robert Powell or Michael Swords who write just the facts not coming to too many conclusions. I don't live in that world. That's it's it's not my specialty. My specialty is working with data and analyzing things and bringing rigorous science to it so that I can convince another scientist what is right or what is wrong. Because I won't be happy I mean, I'm pretty sure of what I know, but I want to validate that to my colleagues if only to be able to say I told you so.
对吧？这里面有点人性中的小心眼。
Right? There's a little bit of human pettiness in there.
你知道吗？有点小心眼反而是很好的动力。
You know? A little bit of pettiness is great motivation.
是啊。但我觉得，创造一个能让人们自由讨论这些想法而不被嘲弄的世界，这才是科学应该追求的目标，也是开放、非神学教条主义方法应有的目标。就像指责科学家像神父，这最能激怒他们。但指出他们的行为正在模仿教条和神职体系，才是让他们羞愧并做正确之事的唯一方法。这样说有道理吗？
Yeah. But, you know, but but that's I think, again, enabling people to live in a world like that where you can talk about these ideas without being ridiculed is really, I think, the objective of what science should be and what open minded, you know, non theologically dogmatic approaches should be. It's it's like accuse a scientist of being a a priest, and that's the best way to really upset them. But pointing out that what they're doing is mimicking dogma and priesthood is the only way to shame them into doing the right thing. Does that make sense?
有道理。
It does.
确实有道理。听着老兄，很高兴我们终于完成了这次对话。
It does. Well, listen, man. I'm glad we finally did this.
是的。谢谢
Yes. Thank
非常感谢你能来。非常感谢你目前参与的所有研究以及你所做的一切，和你交谈真是太棒了。我真的
so much for being here. Thank you so much for all the research that you're you're currently involved in and all the stuff that you've done, and it's been amazing talking to you. I really
很感激。谢谢你。
appreciate it. Thank you.
非常感谢。好的。大家再见。
Thank you so much. Alright. Bye, everybody.
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