本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
快来看看。
Check it out.
《乔·罗根体验》节目。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
我的夜晚。
My night.
一整天。
All day.
很高兴见到
Nice to meet
你。
you.
很高兴认识你，老兄。
Great to meet you, man.
当你在大银幕上看过一个人无数次，然后在现实中见到他时，这种感觉真奇怪。
It's weird when you've seen someone in so many fucking movies, and then you meet them in real life.
就像，好吧。
Like, okay.
就是个普通人站在那里。
Just a regular person right there.
是啊。
Yeah.
直勾勾地盯着我。
Staring me in the face.
他刚去撒了泡尿。
He just took a leak.
是啊。
Yeah.
老兄，你演过不少爆款电影啊。
Dude, you've been in some fucking banger movies, man.
简直可以说，你的职业生涯太精彩了。
It's like, you've had an incredible career.
对。
Yeah.
拉那个玩意儿。
Pull that sucker.
拉啊。
Pull it.
往我这边拉？
Pull it towards me?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Alright.
非常好。
Very good.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是一段漫长而奇异的旅程。
It's been a long strange trip.
确实疯狂。
It's been a wild one.
没错。
Yeah.
你什么时候开始演戏的？
When did you start acting?
你当时多大年纪？
How old were you?
好的。
Alright.
那时我大概12岁。
So I'm, like, 12 years old.
我没有冬季运动项目。
I don't have a winter sport.
我母亲不知道该怎么管教我。
My mother doesn't know what to do with me.
而我隔壁邻居，他住在大概四栋房子外。
And my next door neighbor, he lived like four houses down.
他在保罗·罗伯逊表演艺术中心上过表演课。
He took an acting class at the Paul Robeson Center of Performing Arts.
所以我母亲给我报了名，这样我就能搭他妈妈的车，冬天被送去上表演课，再被接回家。
And so my mother signed me up so that I could get picked up by his mom, you know, taken to acting class in the winter and get dropped off, you know, and be at home.
我去上课时，当地一家剧团的负责人来教即兴表演研讨会。
And I went there, and this head of a local theater company came by to teach an improv seminar.
我12岁。
I'm 12 years old.
对吧？
Right?
后来在停车场，他说，嘿。
And afterwards in the parking lot, he said, hey.
你想参演一部剧吗？
You wanna be in a play?
我说，什么意思？
I said, what do you mean?
他说，有个骑士的角色。
He says, got a part of a guy who's a knight.
你可以配一把剑。
He gets to you get to have a sword.
然后我问，我有台词吗？
And said, will I have any lines?
他说，你只有一句台词。
He said, you'll have one line.
我说，好吧。
I said, alright.
酷。
Cool.
然后我问了我妈妈，她说，我需要付钱吗？
And I asked my mom, and she said, do I have to pay?
你知道吗？
You know?
然后我说，我觉得不用。
And I said, I don't think so.
我觉得他们会付钱给我。
I think they're gonna pay me.
于是我去演了这部戏，是新泽西州麦卡特剧院上演的萧伯纳作品《圣女贞德》。
So I went and I did this play, and it was George Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan at the McCarter Theatre in New Jersey.
而且
And
那可是正经的戏剧演出。
That was a real play.
是啊。
Yeah.
那是一部正规的戏剧。
It was a it was a proper play.
哇。
Wow.
说实话，那是一次难以置信的经历，因为我父母非常厌恶他们的工作。
And it was an incredible experience, to be honest with you, because my parents hated their jobs.
你知道，他们去上班时，生活都围绕着工作边缘打转。
You know, they would go to work, and their life happened on the periphery of their employment.
我母亲要坐火车去纽约，所以她总是天不亮就出门，晚上七点半才能到家。
You know, my mom would take the train to New York, and so she wouldn't get home till 07:30, something she would leave at dawn.
她在工作中简直苦不堪言，我是说。
And she's just miserable at work, I mean.
我去参加这次排练，所有人都在讨论上帝是否存在。
And I went to this rehearsal, and everyone was having they were talking about whether or not God existed.
他们在谈论自己的信仰。
They were talking about what they believed in.
他们会穿上这些奇装异服，然后我们演了这出戏，获得了全场起立鼓掌。
They would dress up in these crazy outfits, and then we did the play, and they got a standing ovation.
这真的非常有趣。
And it was it was so much fun.
那是我第一次意识到——原来可以靠这个谋生？
And it was the first time I saw I like, you could do this for a living?
要知道，很多演员都不是什么知名人物，但他们是真正的演员，而且热爱自己的工作。
You know, a lot of the the actors aren't people you've heard of or anything like that, but they were real actors, and they loved their job.
排练室里看着他们研究站位、重点、场景主题、戏剧核心，以及如何让每个场景融入整体脉络，那种感觉真是令人振奋。
And the rehearsal room was so kinda thrilling watching them figure out where people should stand and when what was important and what was the scene about and what was the theme of the play and how could this scene fit in with the larger context.
于是我就决定这就是我想做的事。
And and I just decided that's what I wanted to do.
很多孩子都想演戏，所以这并不算什么特别的事。
And a lot of kids wanna act, so that doesn't mean very much.
但通过另一个朋友，我开始听说纽约有公开选角的消息。
But I through this other friend of mine, I started hearing about open cast and calls in New York.
我问妈妈能不能去参加一些大型试镜。
And I asked my mom if I could go on some of these big auditions.
她问，这需要花钱吗？
And, she said, does is it gonna cost me any money?
她说，如果我自付火车票钱，就可以去参加这些试镜。
She said, if I paid for my own train fare, I could go to these auditions.
于是我拍了几张宝丽来照片，参加了几次大型试镜，结果被选中了一个。
So I took some Polaroids and went on a few of these big auditions, and I got one of them.
那是1984年的一部三千万美元预算的大制作，导演是刚拍完《小魔怪》的那个人。
And it was for this big in 1984, it was a $30,000,000 movie directed by the guy who'd just done gremlins.
对吧？
Right?
乔·丹特。
Joe Dante.
我以为自己从此飞黄腾达了。
And I thought I was a made man.
我是说，这简直难以置信——突然从美国郊区被拽到了洛杉矶。
I mean, it was just it was in it was absolutely incredible to be sucked out of suburban America and brought to LA.
我的第一个对手戏演员是瑞凡·菲尼克斯，突然间我就想：哇！
My first scene partner was River Phoenix, and all of a sudden Woah.
我居然在洛杉矶了。
I'm I'm in LA.
你知道，我妈妈没法辞职陪我来，她和她母亲的关系非常紧张。
And, you know, my mom couldn't quit her job or anything, so my mom had a really turbulent relationship with her mother.
她们母女其实并不了解彼此，但她母亲主动提出要当我的监护人。
But her mother her mother and she didn't really know each other, and so her mother said she'd be my guardian.
我妈妈设计这个方式可能是想修复家庭关系，但我祖母实在是个难缠的人。
And my mom designed this as a way to maybe have a family healing, but my grandmother was a piece of work.
我们当时一起住在韩国城。
And we lived together in Koreatown.
人们都这么叫它。
That's what they called it.
那段日子很疯狂。
And it was wild.
我记得是她开车带我进的派拉蒙片场。
And she I remember we drove into Paramount Studios.
你知道的，就像《教父》里那种场景，巨大的铁门。
You know, you can picture it, the image from the godfather, and you had the big gates.
而我祖母一直梦想成为电影明星。
And my grandmother had always wanted to be a movie star.
哇。
Wow.
你知道吗？
You know?
她是从这里来的。
And she she was from here.
她来自德克萨斯州的奥斯汀。
She's from Austin, Texas.
其实更准确说是沃斯堡，不过她总爱说起在奥斯汀的派拉蒙影院看《乱世佳人》的往事。
Well, really Fort Worth, but, you know, she would talk about going to see Gone With The Wind at the Paramount here in Austin.
知道吗？
You know?
她每周都要看三遍《乱世佳人》。
And she would she would watch Gone With The Wind, you know, three times a week.
她一直梦想成为电影明星。
And she had dreamed of being a movie star.
我记得第一天去片场时，我们坐着一辆大面包车，当派拉蒙的大门缓缓打开时，她正在车里抽着夏娃牌香烟。
And I remember we were in a big van driving me to set the first day, and we went through the gates of Paramount opening up, and she was smoking an Eve cigarette in the van.
当然，那是1984年，她就像在说，是啊，我第一次来好莱坞居然是当个该死的监护人。
Of course, it's 1984, and she's just like, yeah, my first time in Hollywood as a fucking guardian.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以整个童星经历就像一场奇幻旅程。
And and so the whole child actor thing is was a trip.
而且我拍完了那部电影，如果要讲完这个故事，里面还有很多戏剧性的事情。
And I finished the movie, and there's a lot of drama involved in that if I was to complete that story.
但我还是完成了。
But I finished it.
那部电影彻底扑街了。
The movie was a big turkey.
你当时多大？
How old were you at the time?
14岁。
14.
哇。
Wow.
牧师和我当时都是14岁。
Reverend and I were both 14.
我们就像是啊。
We Like Yeah.
但是看啊，我们在那张照片里看起来那么年轻。
But see, we look so young in that picture.
对吧？
Right?
但你要明白，你知道，在那个年纪，你渴望18岁，渴望16岁。
But you gotta understand, you know, when you're that age, you think you're dying to be 18, dying to be 16.
我和River一起偷了一包骆驼牌香烟，因为我们都想成为像詹姆斯·迪恩那样的人。
We went off River and I stole a pack of Camel cigarettes because we both wanted to be like James Dean.
我们玩得非常开心。
And and we had a we had a lot of fun.
这是事实。
That's the truth.
但电影上映时，我记得我和River在首映式上去了洗手间。
But the movie came out, and I remember River and I going to the bathroom at the premiere.
从拍摄电影到上映这段时间里，我们长高了不少，洗手间里没人认出我们。
And we'd grown a lot from the time we shot the movie to the time it came out, and nobody in the bathroom really recognized us.
他们都在讨论这部电影有多糟糕，简直烂透了。
And they were all talking about what a turkey the the movie was, how terrible it was.
我记得当时对视了一眼，发现现实和我们想象的完全不一样。
And I remember just looking in the eyes and like, it it wasn't the narrative we thought.
你知道，我们曾沉浸在那个梦想中，以为会成为当时心目中的青少年偶像。
You know, we we'd bought into the dream that, you know, we were gonna be whatever teen icon we were thinking of at the time.
但这个梦想很快就破灭了，带着苦涩的滋味。
And and it died a quick and salty death, my dream.
后来我回到高中，放弃了当演员的梦想。
And I went back to high school and put away my dream of being an actor.
这感觉就像是一个孤立的事件，几乎像是那种自选冒险的书，让我得以窥见好莱坞的模样，却又被拒之门外。
It seemed like it was this isolated, almost like choose your own adventure book or something, where I got to see what Hollywood was like, but then have it denied.
这有点像把手伸进火焰里。
And it kinda like putting your hand in a flame.
当一切结束时，那种感觉并不好受。
It was not a good feeling when it was over.
然后，大约四年过去了，我高中毕业进入大学，听说有个叫《死亡诗社》的电影在选角。
And then, you know, four years or so went by, and I graduated high school and I was off of college, and I heard about these auditions from a movie called Dead Poets Society.
我讨厌大学。
And I hated college.
我过得很痛苦。
I was miserable.
我想，我要坐公交车去参加这些公开试镜。
And I thought, I'll take the bus in, and I'll go on one these open casting calls again.
如果我得到这个角色——这就是我当时的决定。
And and if I get the part this is what I decided.
如果我得到这个角色，我就这么干。
If I get the part, I'll I'll do that.
如果没得到角色，我就去当商船船员，像杰克·伦敦那样。
If I don't get the part, I'll join the Merchant Marines and be like Jack London.
那是我当时的幻想。
That that was my fantasy at the time.
我记得当时给我姐姐打电话说：好吧。
I remember I remember calling my sister and saying, alright.
总共有七个角色。
There's seven parts.
我当时真是蠢透了。
This is how dumb I was.
我还在想：明明有七个角色。
I was like, there's seven parts.
要是连一个都拿不到，那我肯定糟透了。
If I don't get one of those, I must suck.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这根本不是真的。
So it's not true at all.
但最终我还是得到了其中一个角色。
But I ended up getting one of them.
然后我辍学了，《死亡诗社》的成功让我...就像改变了人生航道，把我推向了一条与之前完全不同的水域。
And and I dropped out of college, and the success of Dead Poets Society sent me you know, it was like a trajectory of it shot me down a different course of water than I was on before.
这很可能比第一部电影就大获成功、让你成为童星要好得多。
It's probably a much better path than the first film being successful, and you become a child star.
我无法形容对那段初次经历的感激之情。
I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that first experience.
首先，即便没有其他原因，《死亡诗社》的成功让我完全没有把它当回事。
First of all, if for no other reason than in the success of Dead Poets Society, I didn't take it seriously at all.
我甚至直到几年后才意识到这部电影成功了，因为我一直给自己做失败的心理建设，你懂的，就是预想着会失败。
I didn't even realize that the movie was successful until a couple years later because I had so braced myself for failure, you know, perception of failure anyway.
是因为第一次的经历吗？
Because of the first experience?
是啊。
Yeah.
因为所有人都在说，哦，这部电影太棒了。
Because everybody's saying, oh, the movie's so great.
我就想，是啊。
I'm like, yeah.
他们上次也是这么说的。
They said this last time.
这并不能说明什么。
This doesn't mean anything.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这在我很小的时候就教会了我要问自己为什么要做某件事。
And so it kinda taught me at a really young age about to ask yourself why you're doing something.
你知道，比如，你是为了结果而做这件事，还是单纯为了做而做？
You know, like, are you doing it for the result of what happens, or are you doing it to do it?
几年后当我重返演艺圈时，我已经完全做好了心理准备，即使不顺利也值得。
And I by coming back to acting a few years later, I was just fully braced for it not to go well, and it was still gonna be worth it.
所以我觉得这给了我一点定力，让我能承受《死侍》的成功。
And and so I think I it gave me a slight bit of ballast to handle the success of Deadpool.
投身其中是出于对表演的热爱，而不是想着要成为明星。
Into it for the enjoyment of doing it rather than thinking you're gonna be a star.
我没有任何期待，但我确信自己不会成为明星。
I had no expectations, but I was certain I wasn't going to be a star.
我对此非常肯定。
I was positive of it.
我当时把这看作赚钱的途径，或许还能学习写作和电影知识，也是离开大学的一种方式。
I saw it as a way to make some money and maybe learn about writing and learn about film and a way to get out of college.
但实际情况是，当我到了那里，遇到了许多热爱表演的年轻人。
Now what happened is when I got there, I met all these other young men who were in love with acting.
那时我常和他们一起看电影、聊电影，看到他们眼中的光芒。
And that I was sort of watching movies with them and talking about movies with them and seeing the light in their eyes.
我们去片场时，罗宾·威廉姆斯就在那里。
And we'd go to set, and there was Robin Williams.
要知道，我们的导演是刚拍完《证人》的彼得·威尔——那在当时是我最爱的电影之一。
You know, we had Peter Weir who had just directed witness, one of my favorite movies of all time at that point.
他是位大师。
And he was a master.
我的意思是，他绝非等闲之辈。
I mean, he was not a lightweight human being.
他是个举足轻重的人物。
He was a heavyweight human being.
他会主持排练，以一种我前所未闻的方式谈论表演艺术——就像我们排演《圣女贞德》时那样，他把这视为艺术创作，视作超越成败的使命。
And he would lead rehearsals, and he would talk about acting and performance in a way that I hadn't well, you know, I heard people talk about it that way when we're doing Saint Joan when I was doing the like, he talked about it like we were making art and like we were on a mission beyond success or failure.
那是对一种生活方式、一种人生追求的邀约。
And it was it was an invitation to a lifestyle, a life commitment.
而我当时没有意识到，那也正是这部电影的主题。
And what I didn't realize at the time, that's what that movie's about too.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这部电影本身就是一场关于'及时行乐'的引导式冥想。
So the movie itself is a guided meditation on carpe diem.
对吧？
Right?
这是一部关于'花开堪折直须折'的冥想作品。
It's it's a meditation on gather ye rosebuds while ye may.
我在世界屋顶上发出野蛮的呐喊。
I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world.
明白吗？
You know?
这些就是我在排练时被大量灌输的内容。
This is kind of stuff that I was getting inundated with in rehearsal.
所以当时我并没有意识到，也不会告诉你《死亡诗社》杀青那天我的生活已经改变，但回想起来，其实并没有。
And so that was I didn't I wouldn't have told you that on the day I wrapped Dead Poets Society that my life had changed, but looking back, it hadn't.
它已经播下了种子。
It had planted the seeds.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我在想，我还没见过哪个14岁成名的人最终能安然无恙地走出来。
Was thinking I I've never met a person who became famous at 14 who came out of it okay of yet to.
听说朱迪·福斯特就处理得很好。
I heard Jodie Foster's cool.
从来没有人能在年少成名后全身而退。
Never been anybody that became famous very young.
正是出于这个原因，我读过她所有的访谈。
I read every interview she does for exactly that reason.
这真的太难了。
I have it's it's so difficult.
我经常告诉家长们，孩子表演是件很棒的事。
I tell parents all the time, like, children acting is a wonderful thing.
让他们参加学校的戏剧表演。
Put them in the school play.
这对他们非常有益。
It's so good for them.
给他们报声乐课。
Get them singing lessons.
这对他们非常有益。
It's so good for them.
参加教堂唱诗班唱歌。
Singing the church choir.
这对他们非常有益。
It's so good for them.
但让年轻人成为职业演员这件事——它极其危险，其危害方式隐蔽到发生时都难以察觉。
But to be a professional actor at a young age is this it it's dangerous in an extremely insidious ways that are very, very hard to perceive when it's happening.
这个说法很到位。
That's a great way to put it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为这完全阻碍了你的成长过程。
It's it I think it completely impedes your developmental process.
我把它比作混凝土。
The way I I liken to is like concrete.
制作混凝土时，需要一系列非常精确的配料。
When you make concrete, there's a bunch of very specific ingredients.
必须按特定比例混合。
You put them with very specific mixture.
比如水量、沙量、石料比例都必须精确——稍有偏差，便无法补救。
Like, you have to have this amount of water, that amount of sand, this amount of rocks, all the if it's off, it's never fixed.
混凝土凝固后就无法再加水了。
You can't add water after it's cured.
已经定型了。
It's done.
永远都搞砸了。
It's fucked forever.
现在这就是劣质混凝土了。
This is bad concrete now.
这就是许多年轻人在成名后会遭遇的情况，无论是通过演戏还是唱歌
And this is what happens to a lot of young human beings that become famous, whether it's through acting or singing
或者对。
or Yeah.
而且不仅仅是名声问题。
And it's not just fame.
这个类比实际上适用于各行各业。
That analogy works for all walks of life, really.
你知道，如果在童年时期经历了非常创伤性的事件，要恢复是非常困难的。
You know, if if you have a really something really traumatic happens in childhood, it's very hard to recover.
这需要付出巨大的努力才能恢复。
It's a tremendous amount of work to recover.
我同意你的观点。
And I agree with you.
我觉得名人效应就像一滴水银，或者说是一种毒药。
Like, I think celebrity is like it's like a tiny drop of mercury or it's poison.
这对你的大脑是有害的。
It's poison for your brain.
如果你足够成熟，你或许能够应对。
Now if you're mature, you can handle it.
如果是慢慢接触的话，就像我是逐渐接触到的。
And if you get it in slow ink like, I got it in slow increments.
《死亡诗社》让我尝到了一点成名的滋味，但那时还没人知道我的名字。
Dead Poets Society happened to add a little taste of fame, but I wasn't nobody knew my name.
我去餐厅吃饭？
I was You go to restaurants?
是啊。
Yeah.
就是《死亡诗社》里那个孩子。
Was that kid from Dead Poets Society.
哦，看看他。
Oh, look at him.
对。
Yeah.
巴拉巴拉。
Blah blah blah.
我是慢慢获得的，逐渐培养出...该怎么说呢？
And I got it in slow I got to develop what do what do you call it?
当你逐渐获得一些从容，就像有了抵抗力。
When you you get a little bit of poise like a Resistance.
是的。
Yeah.
对此的抗拒。
Resistance to it.
它对我来说来得太慢了。
And it it it came so slowly for me.
我甚至想起《风月俏佳人》上映的那个周末——两天前还没人听说过朱莉娅·罗伯茨。
I even think about people I remember the weekend pretty woman came out two days before no one had ever heard of Julie Roberts.
两天后，她就成了全美最知名的女性。
Two days afterwards, she's the most famous woman in America.
我觉得这种巨变很难消化。
I think that's a huge thing to absorb.
我不希望任何人经历这种事。
I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
而且我知道以我的性格根本承受不了。
And I know that my personality couldn't have handled it.
我确实很努力去应对，无论做得好还是不好。
I've I've worked hard to handle it as poorly or well as I have.
你知道吗？
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得你重返校园、过了五六年普通生活才离开大学，这真的很关键。
It's I think you going back to school and living a normal life for, you know, five, six years or whatever it was before you left college, that's I just think that's critical.
这是一个人正常成长的发展过程——经历青春期、青少年阶段、大学时期，成为年轻成年人后，你才能更好地应对事情。
That's the developmental process of the normal maturation of a person when they go through adolescence, teenage years, into college, young adult, then you can kinda handle things.
而且可能你也算幸运，就像你说的，《死亡诗社》没让你一夜爆红。
And then maybe you're also fortunate that, like you said, dead poet society, not you know, you didn't get too huge from it.
只是获得了一些关注度。
You just got some some juice.
一点点关注度。
A little bit of juice.
一点点自信。
A little bit of confidence.
那是一个夜晚，你知道的，感觉像是有什么事情正在发生。
That was a night you know, it's like Something's happening.
确实有事情在发生，但之后那几年，我得感谢我妈妈，她对我辍学这件事感到非常伤心。
Something's happening, but then I had the years after that, though, you know, I have to give some a shout out to my mom who was just so devastated that I dropped out of college.
我是说，她为此哭个不停。
I mean, she just couldn't stop crying about it.
你知道吗？
You know?
这让我充满了一种渴望，想向她证明我正在为自己的教育负责，这正是我承诺过的事。
And it filled me with a desire to show her that I was taking responsibility for my own education, which is what I said I would do.
于是我开始组建了一个剧团，我非常努力地做了很多事情，写作、阅读、思考，主要是和这个剧团一起，在那里我遇到了许多对我所做之事感兴趣的年轻人，但我们没有报酬。
And so I started a theater company, and I I worked really hard at a lot of different things, writing and reading and thinking and mostly with this theater company where I met a lot of young people who were interested in what I was doing, but we weren't paid any money.
我们拼命工作，搭建布景，你知道的，那段时光很快乐。
And we worked our asses off, we built sets, and we you know, it it was fun.
我不想说谎。
I won't wanna lie.
我们度过了非常愉快的时光。
We had a great time.
但通过这个剧团，我为自己创造了一种大学般的体验。
But it was a college experience that I gave myself through this theater company.
这改变了我，因为我遇到了许多在我所从事的领域非常优秀却不赚大钱的人。
And that changed me because I met a lot of people who were really excellent at what I do that weren't making a lot of money.
我遇到了许多和我一样热爱这份事业的人，他们没有被拍照记录，也没有人告诉他们很特别。
I met a lot of people who loved it as much as I do, who weren't getting their picture taken, who weren't being told they were special.
我知道他们有多么天赋异禀。
I knew how gifted they were.
我能理解。
I could understand.
在我选择的这个充满浮华的领域里，我获得了一些平衡，也学会了一点谦逊。
I had a little bit of balance and a little bit of humility to go along with the superficial elements of of my chosen field.
你有没有想过，如果那个家伙在你12岁时没有邀请你参演那部戏，你的人生会怎样？
Do you ever think about, like, what would have happened if that guy didn't invite you to do that play when you were 12?
人生中这些关键节点真是挺神奇的。
It's kind of crazy how there's these pivotal moments in your life.
你知道吗，他刚刚去世了。
You know, he just died.
他叫纳格尔·杰克逊，是一位伟大的戏剧导演。
Nagel Jackson was his name, And he's he was a great theater director.
我的意思是，我不知道你是否也有这种感觉。
I mean, the I don't know if you feel this way.
我常常有种感觉——虽然这么说可能听起来很傻——但确实觉得像是有什么守护天使，为什么这个人会在停车场跟我搭话，为什么他如此善良正直？
I don't know what I have the sense often, and I know this just sounds really dopey to say, but I sometimes have a sense of a guardian angel of some kind of why did this guy talk to me in the parking lot, and why was he such a kind, decent human being?
在我的一生中，总有机遇降临，而我也有足够的直觉和智慧去把握它们。
Throughout my life, I have had opportunities presented to me, and I had enough intuition and enough intelligence maybe to follow it.
但我确实经常思考这个问题。
But I do think I think about it all the time.
那些在周二、周三和周四悄然发生、难以察觉，却指引着你人生方向的种种际遇。
All the ways that are imperceptible in the Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday that they happen, but where your life is kind of guided.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且感觉并非完全由你自己主导。
And it doesn't really feel by your own doing.
是啊。
Yeah.
我知道这么说可能显得古怪，但我也相信这一点。
I know it sounds wacky to say, but I believe it too.
我的意思是，我不会公开宣称这是所有事情发生的必然原因，但很多——我认为大多数有所成就的人——生命中都有这样的时刻：这一切是怎么发生的？
I mean, I don't publicly profess it as the definite reason why everything happens, but there's a bunch of I think most people that have gotten anywhere in life, there's moments in their life where, how did that happen?
就像，为什么这感觉像是一条命中注定的道路？
Like, what why did this feel like it was a a destined path?
比如，L
Like, why why was I compelled to try this?
这背后的想法是什么？
What was the what was the thought behind that?
我是否在被引导着？
And what am I am I being guided?
命运真的存在吗？
Is there is fate real?
我好奇其他人的感受，但我确实认为关键在于每个人都有自己的命定之路。
I wonder how other people feel, but I do think one of the keys I think that probably everybody has a path that is there for them.
而了解自我价值、花时间静心倾听内心的诀窍在于——有句话说，我们灵魂的声音极其微弱，很难被听见。
And the trick about knowing yourself, the value, and taking time to, like, be still with yourself and listen to yourself, you know, that there's an expression, the voice of our spirit is extremely gentle, and it's it's difficult to hear it.
它很安静。
It's it's quiet.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你能听见——那种直觉，那种指引，所谓守护天使的概念——当你与自我保持联系时，就能看清周遭发生的一切。
But if you can hear it, that thing intuition, that thing, the path, idea of a guardian angel would have you can see what's happening around you if you're in touch with yourself.
如果你与自我失去联系，就会不断在同样的地方跌倒，看不到可能存在的各种角度和道路。
And if you're not in touch with yourself, you keep tripping on the same you're not seeing the angles and the roads that might be available to you.
所以我认为关键在于花时间真正了解自己，这样当光明出现时你才能看见它——我打赌每个人都有这样的时刻。
So I do think that part of the trick is taking time to to actually get to know yourself so that you can see the light when it appears because I bet you everybody has it.
我也相信他们都有。
I bet they do too.
我敢说还有一个真实因素，就是意识到你母亲生活中的痛苦，她的所作所为，以及她错过的那些机会。
I bet there's also a real factor in recognizing the misery of your mother's life, what she was doing, where she didn't take these chances.
她没有...她背负着责任。
She didn't she had responsibility.
她确实...是的。
She was Yeah.
不过我能告诉你一件关于这个的趣事吗？
But can I tell you something funny about that?
好啊。
Yeah.
每年这个时候，生活节奏加快，需要你投入更多精力——更多工作、更多与家人朋友的聚会计划、节日旅行，而外界却日渐寒冷黑暗。你可以任由这一切耗尽你的活力，也可以选择用AG1提前应对。
This time of the year when life ramps up and demands more of your energy, more work, more plans with family and friends, and holiday travel, all while it's getting darker and colder out, you can let it all drain your juice, or you can get out ahead of it with AG one.
AG1是一款日常健康饮品，能帮助你在本季度的能量消耗潮中始终保持领先一步。因为每一勺AG1所含的超级食物和B族维生素都能支持稳定的能量生产，避免能量崩溃。
AG one is a daily health drink that can help you stay one scoop ahead of all the energy drains coming your way this season because the super foods and b vitamins in every scoop of AG one support steady energy production without the crash.
事实上，只需将一勺AG1摇匀溶解在水中，就能满足你每日所需的复合维生素、益生元益生菌、抗氧化剂、超级食物等多种营养。
In fact, just shaking up one scoop of AG one in water covers your multivitamin, your pre and probiotics, antioxidants, super foods, and more.
这是让你每天提前应对各种挑战的简单步骤，也是我多年来选择与他们合作的原因。
It's one simple step to start your day ahead of anything that might come your way, and that's why I partnered with them for years.
当你需要能量支持时，AG1通过超级食物和B族维生素提供助力，帮助将营养物质转化为能量，让你充满活力与朝气。
When you need energy support, AG1 delivers with superfoods and with B vitamins that help convert nutrients into energy for vigor and vitality.
立即订阅即可获得这款临床验证配方，可选热带风味、柑橘风味、浆果风味或原味，助你始终保持领先一步。
Subscribe today to get this clinically backed formula in the flavor of your choice, Tropical, citrus, berry, or original to help you stay one scoop ahead.
AG1今日推出特别优惠。
AG1 has a special offer today.
访问drinkag1.com/jorogan，首单订阅即可免费获赠迎新礼包（含晨型人帽子、维生素D3K2一瓶及AG1风味体验装）。
If you head to drinkag1.com/jorogan, you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin d three k two, and an AG one flavor sampler for free with your first subscription.
这些免费赠品总价值超过100美元。
That's over a $100 in free gifts.
只需访问drinkag1.com/joerogan或点击描述中的链接即可开始。
Just head over to drinkag1.com/joerogan or visit the link in the description to get started.
所以她在我出生时18岁。
So she was 18 when I was born.
对吧？
Right?
所以这确实很艰难。
So that's that's tough.
你基本上没有童年。
You don't really have a childhood.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
但在她四十五岁左右时，她接受了这个机会。
And but in her mid forties, she took it.
她在四十五岁左右加入了和平队，那时我已经独立了，差不多是我大女儿玛雅出生的时候。
She joined the Peace Corps in her mid forties after you know, at once I was okay, and it was right around the time my oldest Maya was born.
她是独生女吗？
She's a single single child?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我想我成了她心头的一大牵挂。
And I think I was a big part of her on her brain a lot worrying.
她总在担心：这孩子能好好的吗？
It was a big, is this kid gonna be alright?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
这孩子会没事的吧？
Is this kid gonna be alright?
它在你脑海里制造了太多噪音。
It makes a lot of noise in your head.
你知道吗？
You know?
当然。
Sure.
而且我确实没事。
And and I was alright.
她环顾四周，我记得她说过，如果今天发生意外——意外确实会发生——如果我死了，我会对自己极度失望。
And she looked around, and I remember her saying that, you know, if if an accident happened today, when they do happen, and I died, I would be extremely disappointed in myself.
她说这话时大概46岁左右，比我现在还年轻。
She was probably, I don't know, 46 or something when she said this, younger than I am now.
她还说，我不想对自己的人生感到失望。
And and she said, I don't want to be disappointed in my life.
于是她加入了和平队，虽然她对那里印象不深，但他们把她派去了罗马尼亚。
So she joined the Peace Corps, which she wasn't all that impressed with, but they sent her to Romania.
她爱上了罗马尼亚，也爱上了那里的人们。
And she fell in love with Romania, and she fell in love with the people there.
她开始痴迷于研究对吉普赛文化——现在应该称为罗姆文化——的种族歧视问题。
And she got obsessed with the racism against the Gypsy culture, the Roma culture, I'm supposed to call it.
这让她想起六十年代在这里成长的经历，以及她小时候目睹的种族歧视，于是她决定为此做些什么。
And it reminded her a lot of growing up here in the sixties in the racism she saw as a young girl, and she just decided to do something about it.
她在那里度过了二十五年，帮助数千名原本无法上学的孩子走进了校园。
She spent twenty five years there, and she got thousands of kids into school who wouldn't have gone to school.
她最近刚退休回到沃斯堡，现在的她已与我记忆中成长时期的她判若两人，我认为这是个非凡的故事。
She just recently retired back to Fort Worth, and it's she's a different woman than the woman I grew up with, which is, I think a remarkable story.
我深爱着这两个阶段的她。
I I love both the women.
无论是现在的她，还是我成长过程中认识的那个她。
The one the woman now and the woman I grew up with.
我不想把她描绘成一个悲惨的人。
I don't wanna paint some portrait that she was miserable.
她只是对工作感到非常不满。
She had so much she just was miserable at work.
对。
Right.
你知道，和她在一起并不让人感到痛苦。
You know, she was not a miserable person to be with.
没错。
Right.
恰恰相反。
The opposite.
她始终保持着内心的火焰，当机会来临时，她紧紧抓住并全力以赴。
And she kept that fire in herself alive enough to when the window presented itself, she took it and she took it hard.
我是说，她作为一个在沃斯堡出生的年轻女性，在罗马尼亚消失了整整二十五年。
I mean, she disappeared for a quarter of a century to Romania as a young woman born in Fort Worth.
对吧？
Right?
这真是件疯狂的事。
And that's a wild thing to do.
她产生了巨大的影响，我为她感到无比骄傲，也为她的成就感到自豪，所有认识她的人也都这么认为。
And she made a huge impact, and I'm extremely proud of her and proud of the work that she's done and so is everybody who knows her.
而现在她在沃思堡做着自己的事，对自己有了不同的认知，因为她追随了自己的直觉和道路。
And and now she's in Fort Worth doing her thing and has a different sense of herself because she followed her own intuition and her own path.
只是
It just
她不得不长期承担抚养孩子的责任。
she had to deal with the responsibility of raising a child for a long time.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，这也会培养出不同的性格特质。
Well, that that develops a different kind of character too.
你知道的，就是一个女人既要抚养孩子又要照顾男孩所形成的性格。
You know, the the character of a woman trying to raise a child and also a boy.
明白吗？
You know?
我...我生的全是女儿。
I I have all daughters.
真的吗？
You do?
是啊。
Yeah.
我有三个女儿和一个儿子。
I have three daughters and one boy.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
我所有朋友生的都是男孩，兄弟，养男孩真的难多了。
All my friends are boys like, dude, it is so much harder.
就是你得时刻防着他们别把房子给烧了。
It's just that that you just you just trying to keep them from burning the house down.
没错。
Yeah.
那真是够受的。
It was a pain.
当然啦。
Of course.
那可真是够呛。
That was a huge pain.
如果你是独生子女，你懂的？
And if you're a single child, you know?
但她一定从你的人生道路和选择中获得了某种启发。
But I she must have gotten some inspiration from your path, from your choices.
我在想。
I wonder.
你竟然去做了。
That you went for it.
问问她。
Ask her.
我认为她以自己的方式去做了，因为所有人都劝她不要生孩子，但她想生，她不愿随大流。
I think she had, in her own way, went for it because everybody told her not to have a baby and she wanted to, and she didn't wanna run with the pack.
不。
No.
她没有。
She didn't.
我认为18岁时，你无法完全理解生育孩子这一决定带来的深远影响。
I don't think when you're 18, you don't understand the ramifications of the decision of having a child.
确实。
Right.
你知道，那种，怎么说呢，永恒的感觉——我记得玛雅出生时她告诉我，'恭喜啊'。
You know, how, you know, permanent you know, I remember she told me when Maya was born, well, congratulations.
你知道，你现在有了一个需要终生牵挂的人了。
You know, you now have something to worry about the rest of your life.
你知道吗？
You know?
你明白吗？
You you know?
是的。
Yeah.
不过我认为这是一种馈赠。
I think it's a gift though.
我是说，我确实认为它改变了你作为一个人，就我而言，是以最积极的方式。
It's I mean, I I certainly think it changes you as a human being in in my case, the most positive ways possible.
不过我能想象作为单身母亲，处境会艰难得多。
I could imagine being a single mother, though, it's a much more difficult position to be in.
而且女性承受着很大压力。
And there's a lot of pressure on women.
你知道吗？
You know?
确实。
Sure.
你看，如果你工作，就不是个好妈妈。
You know, if if you work, you're a bad mother.
如果你只是个家庭主妇，就不是个坚强的好女人。
If you're just a stay at home mom, you're not a good strong woman.
没错。
Right.
你看，做也难，不做也难。
You know, mean, they're damned if they do.
他们左右为难。
They're damned if they don't.
这就是她们所处的境地。
That's the position they get put in.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
作为演员，所有这些经历让我觉得，观察人们最令我着迷的一点就是他们如何能承担不同的身份。
It's it's all those experiences when as an actor I mean, one of the more fascinating things to me about watching people is how they can assume different identities.
比如，在生命中接触过形形色色的人、拥有丰富的人生经历以供借鉴，从而尝试通过他人的视角理解事物，这有多么重要？
Like and and how critical is it to have had so many different people in your life and different life experiences to draw from to try to understand things through their eyes?
如果你是个普通人——比如股票经纪人，你会以股票经纪人的思维模式行走世间。
If you're a regular person running through if you're a stockbroker, you're running through the world thinking like a stockbroker.
你不会去思考：当一名清洁工会是怎样的体验？
You're not you're not thinking, what would it be like to be a janitor?
嗯。
Mhmm.
试着想象这个男人的生活：他要养家糊口，社区里有个毒贩不断制造麻烦，他的生活就是永无止境的戏剧冲突。
What is it like to be this guy who's trying to raise a family and he's got a a drug dealer in his neighborhood that's causing problems and your life is this constant state of drama?
你正在从所有这些不同经历中汲取养分。
Like, you're drawing from all these different experiences.
所以你的经历——我并不是说你的生活很复杂，但听起来你有个非常伟大的母亲。
So having had, like, not I mean, I wouldn't say it's your life was complicated, but it sounds like you have a really good mom.
只是这种复杂，意味着生活未必那么稳定。
But complicated, like and not necessarily that stable in that way.
你还年轻，正在尝试各种事情，去好莱坞闯荡又回来上大学。
You're young and you're, you know, you're trying this thing out and you're going off to Hollywood and then you're coming back and going to college.
与形形色色的人有过各种奇特的互动，亲身体验过人生百态。
Like, having all these different bizarre interactions with people and life experience it.
当你试图塑造一个角色时，会多大程度上借鉴这些经历呢？
How much do you draw upon that when you're trying to, like, create a character?
嗯，这是个非常宏大的问题。
Well, that's a really big question.
是？
Is?
我还是得把它拆解开来回答。
Well, I still have to break it into parts.
我越问越觉得这个问题变庞大了。
It started getting bigger as I was asking.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为这可以分成两部分。
Because it's kinda two parts.
但关于塑造角色的第一部分，触及了我生活和工作中最热爱的部分。
But the the first part about drawing on a character is touching on my favorite aspect of my life and my job.
大多数人如果是精算师，就只是精算师。
Most people if you're an actuary, you're an actuary.
你用数字思考。
You think in numbers.
你思考的方式就是这样，这就是你的工作。
You think in this this is and it's your job.
你必须这样。
You have to.
是的。
Yeah.
要知道，我有幸扮演了一位二战老兵。
You know, you I have I got to play a World War two vet.
我被带出去参加基础训练。
I got taken out to basic training.
我得以反复阅读二战老兵的日记。
I got to read World War two veterans journals over and over again.
我穿上了他们当年穿的衣服。
I got to wear the clothes they wore.
我花了几个月时间拍那部电影，阅读各类书籍，观看相关纪录片，然后电影就拍完了。
I was working that movie for a few months, reading all kinds of books, watching documentaries about that, then that movie's over.
继续前进。
Moving on.
现在我要被选为洛杉矶警察的角色。
Now I'm gonna get cast as a LA cop.
正当撞车事件发生时，我将在洛杉矶警车后座进行巡逻，思考方式完全像个警察。
Gonna do ride arounds through Los Angeles in the backseat of a cop car right when the crash unit thing was happening, and and I'm thinking like a cop.
这甚至不同于当一名记者去报道这件事。
And I'm not it's not it's even it's it's different than being a journalist and writing about it.
我真正在尝试设身处地想象他们的处境，而不是从评判的角度去看待。
I'm really trying to imagine being them, and I'm not looking at it from a judgmental point of view.
我对他们是否是好是坏没有预设立场，也不评判这位陆军中士该做这个还是那个决定。
I don't have an agenda about whether they're a good person or a bad person or whether this army sergeant should have made that decision or that one.
我在思考，他为什么做出这个决定？
I'm thinking, why did he make it?
他为什么这么做？
Why did he make it?
他为什么那样做？
Why did he do that?
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我饰演一名爵士乐手，一个瘾君子。
I play a jazz musician, a drug addict.
对吧？
Right?
我并没有坐在那里评判他。
I'm not sitting there judging him.
真是个坏人。
What a bad person.
你知道吗？
You know?
我在想，你为什么要这么做？
I'm thinking, why do you do it?
明白吗？
You know?
这是一种止痛药。
It's it's a painkiller.
他为什么要服用它？
Why is he taking it?
这首音乐从何而来？
Where's this music come from?
为什么这对他如此重要？
Why is it so important to him?
为什么他每天练习十二小时？
Why is he practiced twelve hours a day?
这到底是怎么回事？
What what is that about?
你知道，所有这些角色都是邀请你去扩展自己对身份意义的理解。
You know, you all these characters are these invitations to, a, expand your own sense of what it what identity means.
就像，乔·罗根到底是谁？
Like, what is who is Joe Rogan?
对吧？
Right?
乔·罗根和他母亲在一起时的样子，与他与好友观看超级碗时的状态略有不同。
And who Joe Rogan is with his mom is a little different he's watching the Super Bowl with his best friends.
40岁的乔·罗根与20岁时已判若两人。
Who Joe Rogan is at 40 is different than he is at 20.
我们内心都蕴含着多重的自我面向。
We we have inside of us so many aspects to ourselves.
要知道，当我们陷入爱情时，你就会发生改变。
You know, when you're we're in in love, you you change.
当你第一次见到自己的孩子时，你的生理机能、化学物质都会开始产生微妙变化。
When you see your child for the first time, you change your your your biology, your chemical start to shift a little bit.
若身处暴力环境中，你的分子结构也会发生轻微改变。
If you're in a violent situation, you know, the your molecular structure alters a little bit.
你会逐渐意识到：那个不是你，那个也不是你，那些都不是你。
You start to realize that that's not you and that's not you and that's not you.
但它们又全都是你。
They're all you.
而这正是表演的本质。
And and that's what performing is like.
你开始观察社会、审视自我，发现一种令人兴奋的连续性。
And you start to see society and see yourself and see a a continuity that is really kind of exciting.
只要不被折断手臂或自我陶醉这类事毁掉——我遇到过许多阅历丰富的老演员，从他们身上学到了很多。
I've had if you don't get ruined by, oh, breaking your arm, patting yourself in the back or something like that, I've met a bunch of older actors who've lived really interesting lives that I've learned.
比如我曾与英国老戏骨瓦妮莎·雷德格雷夫共进晚餐，她一生都在演绎莎士比亚、契诃夫、贝克特和田纳西·威廉姆斯的作品。
It's like I I once had dinner with Vanessa Redgrave, this old English actress, and she she'd spent her life doing Shakespeare and Chekhov and Beckett and Tennessee Williams.
她与过去五十年间最杰出的思想者们共度一生，并将这些积淀融入自身。
She spent her life with some of the greatest minds of the last fifty years, and she carries that with her.
她是位智慧超群又极度谦逊的女性，站在她身边就像靠近你真正崇敬的人。
She's powerfully intelligent, powerfully humble woman, and it's it's like being next to somebody you really admire.
就像一位工艺大师。
You know, a master craftsman.
当技艺达到至高境界时，具体是什么技艺已不重要。
It doesn't matter what the craft is when they when you take it to a high level.
它能教会你很多。
It has a lot to teach you.
总之，那是个多部分的问题。
So, anyway, that was a multipart question.
你问题的另一部分是，我是如何保持平衡的？
The other thing that part of your question is, how did I stay balanced?
很大程度上这与我父亲有关，他不在乎名人效应。
And a lot of it had to do with my father who has he doesn't care about celebrity.
他并不觉得这特别有趣，而且并非出于评判的态度。
He doesn't particularly think it's very interesting and not in a judgmental way.
他真正在乎的是正直、你是否是个好人以及你是否诚实。
He really cares about integrity and whether you're a good person and whether you tell the truth.
你赚多少钱对他来说并不那么重要。
And it doesn't it's not that interesting to him how much money you make.
他的价值观不在于此，他天生对那些过度追求关注的人持怀疑态度，对这样的我也同样怀疑，这对我有好处。
That's not where his value system is placed on whether he's naturally suspicious of people who want too much attention, naturally suspicious of that in me, which was good for me.
是啊。
Yeah.
这种怀疑挺好的。
It's a good suspicion.
这是一种健康的怀疑。
It's a healthy suspicion.
没错。
Yeah.
他对我把这行当职业的可能性持非常现实的态度。
He had was very realistic about the chances I had of making a profession out of this.
这并非坏事。
That's not a bad thing.
你知道，人们总说鼓励别人追逐梦想很棒，追随梦想确实很重要。
You know, everybody says, so great to tell people to follow your dreams, and it is important to follow your dreams.
但保持现实、制定计划并照顾好自己也同样重要。
But it's also important to be realistic and have a plan and take care of yourself.
当你承诺要做某件事时，就要说到做到；当被要求说出真相时，就要如实相告。这些品质至关重要，所以每当事情开始好转时，我生命中那位极其重要的人——他从不看重任何肤浅之物——就会提醒我。
And and when you say you're gonna do something to do it, to show up when you're asked to tell the truth, all these things that so whenever things would start to go well, I had this person in my life that's very important to me who doesn't place a value on anything superficial.
我们曾讨论过，为什么在这个行业里，能成功的年轻人如此难觅。
And when we talked about why it's so hard to meet young people in this profession who make it.
无论你的父母是好是坏，或者别的什么原因，你的社交圈都可能被许多试图从你身上牟利的人渗透。
What starts to happen regardless of how good or not good your parents are or something, your circle can get infiltrated with a lot of people trying to make money off you.
这很危险，因为他们根本不在乎你。
And, and that's dangerous because they don't care about you.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实是个问题。
That is an issue.
问题在于有些人会怂恿你接那些本不该接的工作，仅仅因为他们能从中抽成。
There's an issue of people trying to get you to take work that you really shouldn't take just because they're gonna get a percentage of it.
或者那些短期内（比如三年内）对你有好处，但他们并不考虑你长远发展的工作。
Or it's gonna be good for you in the next three years, but they don't have your long term.
对。
Right.
你知道，什么对65岁的你才是真正有益的。
You know, what is gonna be good for the 65 year old version of you.
没错。
Right.
你知道，就像你说的，是啊，如果我能决定自己的人生，《探险家》肯定会大获成功。
You you know, is this like you said, yeah, if I could've if I could've decided my life, Explorers would have been a huge hit.
它会像《E.T.外星人》那样轰动。
It would have been ET big.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我今天就不会出现在这个脱口秀节目上了。
I wouldn't be here on this talk show today.
懂吗？
You know?
所以我不想以那种方式掌控自己的整个人生。
So I don't wanna be in charge of my whole life in that way.
你懂吗？
You know?
也许你会，但那会
Maybe you would, but it'd
不一样。
be different.
你会从康复中心出来。
You'd coming out of rehab.
哦，那是肯定的。
Oh, for sure.
那会是个查理·辛式的故事。
It'd be a Charlie Sheen story.
是啊。
Yeah.
老兄，我可能都结第18次婚了。
Dude, I'd be on marriage 18.
顺便说一句，他是个非常棒的谈话对象。
Who, by the way, was a fantastic guy talk to.
我敢打赌他确实是。
I bet he was.
是啊。
Yeah.
我听过了。
I listened to it.
简直太棒了。
It was fantastic.
真是个了不起的人。
Wonderful guy.
就像个暖心大男孩一样。
Like a sweetheart of a guy.
一个经历过与我所说完全相反境遇的人，对你是有益的。
A guy who went through the exact opposite of what I'm saying is good for you.
如果你能挺过来的话，确实。
If you survive Yeah.
任何经历都是学习工具。
Anything is a learning tool.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，有些经历你必须拥有。
I mean, some you you must have this.
我认识的一些最睿智的人，都曾经历过12步康复计划。
Some of the wisest people I know have been through the 12 step program.
是的。
Yes.
因此，成瘾与苦难可以成为一位不可思议的老师——如果你能从中挣脱出来的话。
And so addiction and misery can be an unbelievable teacher if you can if you pull yourself out of it.
如果你能活下来的话。
If you survive.
如果你能活下来的话。
If you survive.
我不会希望我的孩子经历这些。
It's not I wouldn't wish it for my children.
这不是我希望他们接受的挑战。
It's not a dare I want them to take.
哦，嘿。
Oh, hey.
通往智慧的一条路径是海洛因。
One path to wisdom is heroin.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的很多朋友因此丧命，但也有几个因此变得非常睿智。
A lot of my friends died from it, but a couple of them are really wise from it.
嘿。
Hey.
有本书可以读读。
There's a read a book.
好吗？
Okay?
这是对的。
It's Right.
我记得很有趣，就像你说的，我记得我24岁左右开始取得成功的时候。
I remember it's funny even as you said I remember when I was about 24 starting to get successful.
我遇到了我的朋友理查德·林克莱特，我们在纽约闲逛时遇到了一个我们非常崇拜的酷家伙，一个自命不凡的作家，真的很厉害。
I met my friend Richard Linkletter, and we were hanging out in New York, and we met this really coolest guy we really admired, fancy pants writer, really badass.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们当时正在抽烟。
You kinda just and we were smoking cigarettes.
当然，里克没抽。
Well, Rick wasn't, of course.
我们在打台球时，那家伙对我说，你知道吗？
But we're shooting pool, and this guy said to me, you know what?
你差点就有意思了。
You're almost interesting.
他对我说，你知道你需要做什么吗？你得去墨西哥消失几年。
He said to me, you know, what you gotta do is you go gotta gotta go down to Mexico and disappear for a couple years.
要知道，去体验一下生活，然后你才会有所成就。
You know, live life a little bit, then you'll be somebody.
最后那家伙当晚就走了。
And the guy finally went the night.
我们和瑞克走回家时，瑞克说，让我告诉你不需要做什么。
We're walking home with Rick, and Rick said, let me tell you what you don't need to do.
你想做什么？
What do you what do do?
读点威廉·巴勒斯的作品。
Read some William Burroughs.
这可能是个好主意。
That might be a good idea.
读点亨特·汤普森的书。
Read some Hunter s Thompson.
别走吸毒那条路。
Skip the addiction path.
是啊。
Yeah.
你懂吗？
You know?
弄清楚我的记录去了哪里。
Learn what where my records go.
你不必...你不必那么做。
You don't have to you you don't have to do it.
要知道，你不需要那样——那不是通往智慧的道路。
You know, you don't need to that's that's not the path to wisdom.
对吧。
Right.
明白吗？
You know?
这对少数人有效，但我们大多数人...你看，我和朱迪·福斯特的对话总是绕回这个话题。
It has worked for a handful of people, but most of us, you know, I keep coming back in this conversation with Jodie Foster much.
我阅读她的采访是因为我敬佩她，因为我了解她所经历的磨难。
I'm I read her interviews because I admire because I know what she survived.
对。
Right.
但她聪明得可怕。
But but she's wicked smart.
是的。
Yes.
你知道吗？
You know?
你不想赌自己和她一样聪明。
You you don't wanna you don't wanna place your bet that you're as smart as she is.
是啊。
Yeah.
她不仅聪明，而且充满智慧。
She's smart and also wise.
这就是奇怪之处，像她拍《出租车司机》时多大来着？
That's what the odd thing of someone who's in like, how old was she in taxi driver?
我不知道。
I don't know.
12岁？
12?
14岁？
14?
太疯狂了。
Crazy.
我知道。
I know.
太疯狂了。
Crazy.
我知道。
I know.
而且这是一部非常怪异的电影，让一个小孩子在这样一部非常奇怪的精神病态的电影中被性化。
And it's a very bizarre movie for a young child to be sexualized in in this very weird psychotic movie.
但她从中得到了一位伟大的导师马丁·斯科塞斯，她某种程度上理解自己是在创作艺术。
But what she took from it was this great mentor in Martin Scorsese, and she kinda understood she was making art.
这就是智慧所在。
That's where the wisdom comes in.
她天生就有那种早熟的智慧，嗯哼。
She's just naturally precociously wise that way Mhmm.
她没有纠结于那些名声。
That she didn't get hung up on the the Fame.
那些阴暗的方面，对吧。
The seedy aspects Right.
那些关于性的方面。
The sexuality aspects of it.
她纠结的是，这个叫马丁·斯科塞斯的家伙是谁？
She got hung up on, who's this guy Martin Scorsese?
他在做什么？
What is he doing?
这部电影想表达什么？
What is this movie saying?
我怎样才能参与其中？
How could I be a part of that?
你知道吗？
You know?
这就是我认为她能幸存下来的原因。
And that's how I think she survived.
但我不认识这个女人，所以我不该妄加评论。
But I I don't know the woman, so I shouldn't speak.
是啊。
Yeah.
我也不认识她，但听她讲话时我很钦佩她。
I don't know her either, but I do admire her when I hear her talk.
是啊。
Yeah.
我也是。
Me too.
这就是为什么我总是以她为例，她是我见过的唯一一个经历过童星时期却依然能保持得如此出色的人。
That's why I always bring her up as the lone example that I've ever come across of someone who's been through childhood stardom that seems to be, like, very well put together.
没错。
Yeah.
而且她现在工作依然非常出色。
And she's still really good at her job.
是啊。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
对。
Right.
没错。
Right.
对我来说那简直像漫画一样夸张。
It's like, that that to me a caricature.
这让我感到非常兴奋。
That to me is really exciting.
你知道吗？
You know?
看，如果你是我，你会像我一样经常关注杰夫·布里吉斯。
See, if you're me, you're like, I I I look at Jeff Bridges a lot too.
所以，当《死亡诗社》上映时，我记得自己进行了长时间的内心独白。
So, like, when Dead Poets Society came out, I went I remember I went in this long talk with myself.
那时就像日出时分，而我整夜未眠。
I was like it was like sunrise, and I've been up all night.
当时在纽约，我大概19岁左右。
And it was New York, and I was about 19 or something.
我当时正在思考那些经历过这些并让我由衷钦佩的人，当我看着他们时，心中充满敬仰。
And I was just thinking about who had gone through this that I actually admire when I look at them and I admire.
杰夫·布里吉斯曾主演《最后一场电影》，那是我最爱的电影之一，他在片中的表现令人惊叹。
And Jeff Bridges had starred in The Last Picture Show, which was one of my favorite movies, and he was amazing at it.
他就这样逐渐变得越来越好，越来越好。
And he just slowly got better and better and better and better.
我当时就想，好吧。
And I was like, alright.
所以这是可以做到的。
So it can be done.
你懂吗？
You know?
要知道，他有个了不起的妻子。
This you know, he's got an amazing wife.
他非常痴迷佛教。
He's really super into Buddhism.
我开始想，那是什么来着？
I started getting like, what what is it?
他非常热衷于摄影。
He's really into photography.
就是，拍照片——我的意思是，我也不认识他。
Like, takes I mean, I don't I don't know him either.
对吧？
Right?
所以我只是...我只是像个粉丝一样在谈论。
So I'm just I'm just I'm talking like a fan here.
我并不...并不认识这些人。
I'm not it's not don't know these people.
但我远远地关注着他。
But I I watched him from afar.
我当时就想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
这场比赛能赢。
This race can be won.
我一直记得，他凭借《大地惊雷》获得奥斯卡奖时我特别开心，应该是这部吧。
And and I've always thought I remember I was so happy he won the Academy Award for True Grit, I guess it was.
我当时就想，天啊。
And and I was like, damn.
他经历了多么漫长而缓慢的积累啊。
What a long slow burn he had.
而且他不断进步，越来越有趣。
And he just keeps getting better and more interesting.
他出版的那些古怪小书我很喜欢，我都读过。
He comes out these weird little books I love, and I read them.
他...他还写书？
And he he he He writes books?
是啊。
Yeah.
他有这样一本书，他像是佛教导师，他们合著了一本关于‘禅与牛仔之道’之类的书。
He has this book with his like, he's a mentor in Buddhism, and they kinda wrote a book together about the Tao of the dude or some something like that.
但实际上，你知道，如果你读过《威利的道》的话。
But it's actually you know, don't if you've read the Tao of Willie.
我很喜欢这类左派视角的作品，有时我觉得比起直接阅读那些晦涩内容，我更想了解威利对‘那些东西’的看法。
I love all these kinda to the left versions of sometimes I find it hard to read the I wanna read what Willie thinks about the dump dumpada more than I wanna read the dumpada myself.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就是它。
There it is.
没错。
Yeah.
《牛仔与禅宗大师》。
The dude and the zen master.
顺带一提，这本书很棒。
It's a great book, by the way.
书里有一句我特别喜欢的箴言：'轻轻地划着小船，顺流而下。'
He has a a mantra in it that I just love, which is, row, row, row your boat gently down the stream.
'欢快地，欢快地，人生不过是一场梦。'
Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
他还谈到这首歌对他有多重要。
And he talks about how valuable that song has been to him.
我可能记错了原话，但它对我意义重大，就像在说'一步一个脚印'。
I I probably misquoting, but it it meant a lot to me, and it's just like one step at a time.
一步一个脚印。
One step at a time.
保持脸上的笑容。
Keep keep a smile on your face.
你懂吗？
You know?
别忘了这一切都是梦。
Don't forget it's all a dream.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就像，这是个很棒的真言。
It's like, it's a great mantra.
是啊。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
而且能遇到一个历经沧桑却依然魅力非凡、见解独到且充满智慧的人总是很棒。
And it's it's always great to have someone who has gone through it all and has come out fascinating, interesting, and wise.
所以你会想，哦，这是可以做到的。
So you go, oh, it can be it can be done.
是啊。
Yeah.
你见过克里斯·克里斯托弗森吗？
Did you ever meet Chris Christopherson?
没有。
No.
他很酷。
He was cool.
是吗？
Yeah?
是的。
Yeah.
其实，我我有个秘密幻想就是你的工作。
I well, I I my secret fantasy is is your job.
你知道吗？
You know?
我大约十五年前为《滚石》杂志写过一篇关于克里斯的专访，还拍过一部关于保罗·纽曼和乔安妮·伍德沃德的纪录片。
I wrote a profile on Chris, I don't know, fifteen years ago now for Rolling Stone magazine, and I made a documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward.
我刚完成一部关于梅尔·哈格德的纪录片，而且我真的很喜欢研究他人。
And I just finished a documentary about Merle Haggard, and, I really enjoy studying other people.
但克里斯，你知道的，他的人生故事。
And but Chris, you know, his his life stories.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know know what I mean?
他曾参军，后来放弃一切成为词曲作家。
He was in the military, and then he gave up everything, became a songwriter.
这有点像想象一下，当事业处于巅峰时，就像想象布拉德·皮特还为艾米·怀恩豪斯写过一首冠军单曲，你懂我的意思吗？
It's kinda like imagine if, know, the equipment is like at the point of height of his career, it's like imagining if Brad Pitt had also written a number one single for Amy Winehouse and you know what I mean?
我是说，他为珍妮丝·贾普林创作了《我和鲍比·麦基》。
Mean, mean, know, he he wrote me and Bobby McGee for Janis Joplin.
真的吗？
He did?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
哦哦，是的。
Oh oh, yeah.
哇。
Wow.
而且他曾是直升机飞行员，为约翰尼·卡什写过歌，还参演过山姆·佩金法和保罗的电影。
And he was, you know, a helicopter pilot, he wrote songs for Johnny Cash, and he was acting in Sam Peck and Paul movies.
他出演过《刀锋战士》。
He was in Blade.
没错。
Yeah.
他演过《刀锋战士》。
He was in Blade.
对。
Yeah.
但他确实是个真正的罗德学者，还是一名拳击手。
But he was a a real he's a Rhodes scholar and a boxer.
你会喜欢这家伙的。
You would like this guy.
他肯定很对你的胃口。
He would be right up your alley.
一个真正的自由思想家，不被任何思维模式束缚，真正为个人权利而战。
A real free thinker and didn't trap himself in any way of thinking and really fought for individual rights.
他是个非常非常棒的人。
And he was a great great guy.
我有幸采访过他。
I got to interview him.
而且他实际上还出演了我执导的第一部电影，所以我逐渐了解了他。
And he he actually starred in my first movie I directed too, so I got to know him.
那是什么？
What was that?
那部电影叫《切尔西墙》。
So movie called Chelsea Walls.
我不一定推荐你看。
I don't necessarily recommend you watch it.
想看的话当然可以看。
You can if if you want to.
拍这部电影让我学到很多。
I learned a lot making it.
我非常喜欢它，但你知道，当时我还在学习阶段。
I I I like it a lot, but I was learn you know, I was learning a lot.
但克里斯参演了，他表现得非常出色。
But Chris Chris was in it, and he was amazing.
是啊。
Yeah.
人生中能认识这样的人真是太有益了，他们不仅仅是鼓舞人心。
Having known people like that is so beneficial in your life that they they're not just, like, inspirational.
这就像一种精神燃料，几乎是一种养分。
It's like a mental fuel, a type of a type of nutrient almost.
就像认识一个你知道存在的人，他经历过困境却蜕变出彩，不受限于任何特定身份，兴趣广泛且充满热情地追求它们。
It's like having a person that you know exists that's been through something that's come out amazing and it and is so not tied down to anyone's specific identity, has varied interests, pursues them all with passion.
拥有导师。
Having mentors.
是的。
Yes.
就像，你知道的，不认识武士怎么能成为武士呢？
It's like, you know, how are you gonna be a samurai if you don't know a samurai?
没错。
Right.
懂吗？
You know?
你还得看他们怎么系鞋带。
And you gotta see the way they tie their shoes.
你得看看他们是怎么做饭的。
You gotta see the way they make dinner.
你不能只看那些花哨的剑术表演。
You don't just gotta see the fancy sword play.
那些都是来之不易的。
That stuff is hard earned.
所以我并不害怕那些。
And and so I'm not scared of that.
你知道吗？
You know?
你不必对人们盲目崇拜。
You don't you don't have to hero worship people.
你不必把他们神化。
You don't have to turn them into deities.
他们也是普通人。
They're human beings.
但当你亲身体验并看到人们时，你会发现，哦，你不必撒谎。
But when you get to experience and see that people like, oh, you don't have to lie.
我曾经认识一个从不撒谎的人。
I knew a guy once who didn't lie.
你知道吗？
You know?
当有人那样说时，你不必退缩。
You don't have to back down when somebody says that.
我看着那个人没有退缩。
I watched the person not back.
你可以成为一个好父母。
You can be a good parent.
你可以让你的孩子说，我爱我的爸爸。
You can have your parent your children say, I love my dad.
这不会来得容易，但可以做到。
It's not gonna come easy, but it can be done.
所以，我喜欢英雄人物。
And and so I like heroes.
我不仅喜欢英雄，也喜欢看到年长的人。
I have no I I like I also like seeing older people.
你知道，不是迷恋23岁的詹姆斯·迪恩那种，而是迷恋72岁的克里斯·克里斯托弗森那样的。
You know, there's not not the fixation on the 23 year old James Dean, you you know, but a fixation on, you know, the 72 year old Chris Christopherson.
明白吗？
You know?
不过，你可以选择你心目中的英雄。
But, you know, pick whoever yours are.
是啊。
There's Yeah.
比如穆罕默德·阿里。
You know, Muhammad Ali.
我是说，有太多令人惊叹的人物能让你发出‘哇’的感叹。
I mean, there's so many amazing people that you can say like, wow.
他们的生活并非总是一帆风顺。
Life was not always a picnic for them.
他们是如何应对的？
How did they handle it?
这样一来，当生活对你也不如意时，你就不会太过沮丧。
And then you cannot be, you know, too upset when life's not a picnic for you.
你只需问问自己：你是如何应对的？
You can just ask yourself how did you handle it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我...我认为真心欣赏他人并无不妥。
I I don't think there's anything wrong with really appreciating people.
对英雄崇拜的担忧确实存在，因为有些人会将偶像神化，不仅赋予其超凡特质，甚至将其非人化。
That concern of hero worship is legitimate because I think there are some people that will take a person and change who they are and make them not just extraordinary, but not even human.
确实。
Yeah.
这是个错误。
It's a mistake.
这确实是个错误，但这并不意味着你不能去爱和深深欣赏真实的他们，包括他们的缺点，因为我们都是如此。
It is a mistake, but it doesn't mean you can't love and deeply appreciate who they actually are, flaws and all, because that's what we all are.
当某人非凡出众，他们经历了那么多，或表达了那么多，与你产生如此强烈的共鸣时，他们就是珍贵的人，你应该把他们当作珍贵的人来对待。
And when someone is extraordinary and they have gone through so much or they have expressed so much and they do resonate with you so much, they're that's a valuable person, and you should treat them like they're a valuable person.
这不一定是英雄崇拜。
It's not necessarily hero worship.
这只是欣赏。
It's just appreciation.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如，我告诉你，不知道为什么这个念头突然闪过我的脑海。
Like, I'll tell you, I don't know why it just flashed through my brain.
当我拍这部电影时，切尔西·华莱士，你得明白，那时候数字视频才刚刚问世。
And when I was making this film, Chelsea Wallace, you have to understand, like, digital video, it just came out.
这部电影，《家宴》，这部丹麦电影，太棒了。
This movie, The Celebration, this Danish film, amazing movie.
托马斯·温特伯格执导的。
Thomas Winterberg directed it.
它某种程度上改变了规则。
And it just kinda changed the rules.
摄像机很便宜。
The camera was cheap.
以前拍电影总是很昂贵，现在你可以...我当时就想，好吧。
Like, movies were always so expensive to make, and now you could just I was like, alright.
我在2000年用10万美元拍了这部电影，我当时就想，好吧。
I want I made this movie for a $100,000 in 2000, and I was like, alright.
我们就用这台新摄像机来玩。
We're just gonna play with this new camera.
我还说服克里斯·克里斯托弗森参演——他是我的偶像，他居然同意了。
And I talked Chris Christofferson into being he was my hero, and he can't he agreed to do it.
我简直不敢相信。
I couldn't believe it.
你知道吗？
You know?
他出现在片场，而我之前精心设计了一个镜头。
He shows up in on the set, and I had this elaborate shot I had planned.
我找到了这间公寓，那正是我想要的。
I'd found this apartment that was me.
希望这听起来不无聊，但我觉得这是个有趣的故事。
I hope this isn't boring, but I think it's it's a funny story.
那是我和克里斯合作的第一天，我真的很想给他留下好印象。
So it's my first day with Chris, and I'm really trying to impress him.
我把这个镜头创意偷师自一部看过的法国电影。
Like, I've I've ripped this shot off from this French film I've seen.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
他的角色会点一瓶威士忌，然后有人把酒送到房间来。
You're gonna come into you're gonna he his character orders a bottle of whiskey, and the guy delivers a bottle of whiskey to the room.
在我的构想中，这个公寓的动线是从客厅走到卧室，从卧室进浴室，然后从浴室出来到厨房，厨房又连通回客厅。
And in my idea, from this apartment, you could walk from the living room into the bedroom, and from the bedroom to the bathroom, and then out of the bathroom into the kitchen, and the kitchen opened back up into the living room.
那是切尔西酒店里典型的纽约方形公寓格局。
It was one of those New York City Square apartments in the Chelsea Hotel.
对吧？
Right?
我给他展示了我设计的这条拍摄路线。
And I showed him this path I wanted to take.
他要在开灯时戴上牛仔帽，同时打着电话。
And he was gonna turn on the lights in this room, and he was gonna put on a cowboy hat while he's talking on the phone.
他会照镜子比划动作，走进浴室开灯，砰地关上镜柜，走出来坐到厨房原位，打开威士忌，在独白最后一句时给自己倒上一杯。
He's gonna look in the mirror and point the thing, and he's gonna walk in the bathroom and flick that light on and then slam the mirror shut and then walk out and then sit down in the kitchen right where he was, pop open the whiskey, and pour himself a glass right as he says the last line of the monologue.
他看着我说：你是个酒鬼吗？
And he looks at me and he goes, are you an alcoholic?
然后我说，不是。
And I was like, no.
不是。
No.
不算是。
Not really.
不是。
No.
他说，我是个酒鬼。
He goes, I'm an alcoholic.
我说，哦，好吧。
I said, oh, okay.
他角色的名字叫巴迪。
His character's name was Buddy.
他说，巴迪是个酒鬼。
Says, Budd's an alcoholic.
我说，是啊。
I'm like, yeah.
他说，所以你是想告诉我，我点了一瓶威士忌。
He goes, so you mean to tell me I order a bottle of whiskey.
我差点就要破戒了，但我直到穿过这个房间、打开灯、试戴牛仔帽、打开另一盏灯、摔碎镜子然后坐下，才打开那该死的酒瓶。
I'm about to fall off the wagon and I don't open the fucker until I walk through this room, turn on a light, try on a cowboy hat, flip on a light, slam a mirror and then sit down.
我当时说，嗯，我觉得这会是个很棒的镜头。
I was like, well, I think it would be a great shot.
然后他说，伊桑，我他妈根本不可能记住那么多台词，还要完成你要求的所有动作。
And he's like, Ethan, there's no way in hell that I can remember all those lines and do all that that you're asking me.
那个镜头绝对行不通。
It'll that shot will never work.
所以我觉得巴德是个酒鬼，他要去拿他的酒瓶。
So what I think is Bud's an alcoholic and he's gonna get his bottle.
他会打开它。
He's gonna open it.
我要坐下来，念完独白，然后喝我的威士忌。
I'm gonna sit down, say my monologue, and drink my whiskey.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Great.
就这么办吧。
Let's do that.
还有一种恐惧是，你深深敬仰的人不喜欢你的想法。
There's also the terror of someone you deeply admire not like your idea.
是啊。
Yeah.
那种感觉就像整个人都蔫了，你懂吗？
Which is your your whole body just shrivels up, you know?
你知道吗，你没看过《吉他》那部电影。
You know, did you know you didn't see the Guitar film.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。